Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Model's Propeller Accident

 

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pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 9, 2011, 7:48 AM
Post #26 of 168 (2246 views)
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Re: [humanflite] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.
in the UK TIs HAVE to hold on to the tandem passenger while boarding the plane

What does one do if walking towards a plane with 3 or 4 static line students?

That's where I found the rules were illogical at a local DZ of mine. With a tandem student you have to hang on to them, but you can wander to the plane with a bunch of FJCs without hanging onto them -- although one has always had to be careful to "herd" them lest they wander.


I feel sorry for the pilot who may need an expensive engine teardown because of the propstrike.


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Dec 9, 2011, 8:30 AM
Post #27 of 168 (2227 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>"I feel sorry for the pilot who may need an expensive engine teardown because of the >propstrike."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really???

How about the idea that this "Pilot" did not succeed in his fundamental task of assuring a safe outcome for his passenger?

As for myself, I feel sorry for this innocent, promising life, that has been forever altered because she misplaced her trust in this "Pilot In Command".


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 9, 2011, 8:50 AM
Post #28 of 168 (2221 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow.

At what point does one persons responsibility for someone else's stupidity end?

She had left the plane...maybe he had some flying stuff to do.

Maybe he should have held her hand all the way home?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 9, 2011, 9:00 AM
Post #29 of 168 (2216 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah I'm being harsh.

Pilots do have the responsibility for a proper briefing of their passengers on safety, and to be quite clear about where the life threatening hazards are. Beyond that... well, that's where the debate really is.

Over the years one always hears of over-enthusiastic passengers running out of an airplane and into a prop, completely forgetting where they are.

Edited to add:

One news story said that "Lauren's parents Cheryl and Jeff Scruggs said that they believe the 23-year-old walked back toward Richmond's plane at the private airport north of Dallas to say a final thank you, perhaps as he was preparing to take off again."

Still, who knows what the actual situation was, whether Lauren had fully deplaned safely before turning back, and whether the pilot was about to taxi the aircraft elsewhere.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Dec 9, 2011, 9:20 AM)


sacex250

Dec 9, 2011, 9:07 AM
Post #30 of 168 (2218 views)
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Re: [normiss] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow.

At what point does one persons responsibility for someone else's stupidity end?

She had left the plane...maybe he had some flying stuff to do.

Maybe he should have held her hand all the way home?

Or, maybe he should have shut down the engine while an unescorted passenger got out at night. It makes absolutely no sense for a pilot to leave the engine running on a Husky (tandem seat taildragger) in this situation.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 9, 2011, 9:33 AM
Post #31 of 168 (2198 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

[Edit: Sacex has a point:]

Assuming it was a Husky as mentioned in this thread: The Husky isn't exactly an easy aircraft for a whuffo to maneuver out of, and if the passenger were in back, as would be more common (for a plain passenger and not say a student under instruction), it would be quite difficult to get them out of the small doorway if the pilot were still strapped in, running the engine. Huskys and the like are a bit like 4-passenger 2-door cars when it comes to getting out of the back seat.

Letting the passenger out with the engine running might indeed be rather odd with that aircraft.

Maybe it is possible that the pilot shut down to deplane the passenger, and then started up again.

I am probably giving the pilot more benefit of the doubt than the passenger, but it is hard to clear things up without more facts & info.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Dec 9, 2011, 9:34 AM)


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Dec 9, 2011, 9:57 AM
Post #32 of 168 (2187 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

And I'm sure I'm being overly sensitive.

I work around pilots and spinning propellers all day everyday, and am astounded at the lack of basic safety practices and procedures I see out there. Including, from persons directly responsible for these things.

Accidents like the one involving this model happen so quickly, and are so avoidable, and shine a negative light on aviation as a whole.

Lets all think safety out there.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Dec 9, 2011, 10:10 AM
Post #33 of 168 (2180 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Most of them seem to feel reassured that I am keeping a grip on them while we walk through the prop-wash of a turbine-engined-jump-plane.

I even had a few hotties who, when I wanted to take a grip at their main lift web, just joined hands with me. Not that I refused! CoolTongueAngelic


3mpire  (C 39657)

Dec 9, 2011, 10:12 AM
Post #34 of 168 (2180 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have hot fueled our otter more times than I can count, and while being "comfortable" doing it, I am highly vigilant and terrified of that prop. From the moment I come around the wheel, my right shoulder is against the fuselage and NEVER leaves.

I have held my arm out though while the engine is off, and as long as my shoulder is on the body, I can't get hit, so there IS plenty of room there. I am not saying that it is a good idea, but you can do it.

respect, dude. I suppose like with anything when you do it often enough you can be safe and get the job done. if it were me I'd take the long walk around the wing for the first few thousand times before I changed it up, lol Crazy


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Dec 9, 2011, 10:13 AM)


wildcard451  (D License)

Dec 9, 2011, 10:46 AM
Post #35 of 168 (2164 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I have hot fueled our otter more times than I can count, and while being "comfortable" doing it, I am highly vigilant and terrified of that prop. From the moment I come around the wheel, my right shoulder is against the fuselage and NEVER leaves.

I have held my arm out though while the engine is off, and as long as my shoulder is on the body, I can't get hit, so there IS plenty of room there. I am not saying that it is a good idea, but you can do it.

respect, dude. I suppose like with anything when you do it often enough you can be safe and get the job done. if it were me I'd take the long walk around the wing for the first few thousand times before I changed it up, lol Crazy

It takes some getting used to, that's for sure, and like Normiss said, it is a GREAT thing to be scared of the fucking prop, cause it will turn you into a fine red mist before you even know you are dead.
There is a specific procedure for hot fueling the front tank. You must follow it every time. Never deviate, and never get distracted.


Marksman  (B 7)

Dec 9, 2011, 11:01 AM
Post #36 of 168 (2160 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

just terrible. Frown

I was taught to always have my helmet on and secured before approaching the aircraft, which btw should always be accomplished thru the back of the plane. But you know what, I constantly see experienced skydivers moving about near the plane and not wearing helmets until just about to be airborne.

I mean why does people with more experience are the ones that bend the rules more explicitly? cmon please set the example.

Anyways, for me an airplane (or chopper) propeller equals to a blending kitchen appliance. you just have to fear any abnormal proximity.


(This post was edited by Marksman on Dec 9, 2011, 11:14 AM)


wildcard451  (D License)

Dec 9, 2011, 11:31 AM
Post #37 of 168 (2144 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just terrible. Frown

I was taught to always have my helmet on and secured before approaching the aircraft, which btw should always be accomplished thru the back of the plane. But you know what, I constantly see experienced skydivers moving about near the plane and not wearing helmets until just about to be airborne.

Your helmet will likely do nothing against the propeller.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 9, 2011, 11:32 AM
Post #38 of 168 (2143 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The general (non-flying) public is remarkably clueless.
Since they cannot see spinning propellers (helicopter rotors) and do not perceive them as a threat.
Every year, some whuffo dies by walking into a propeller at some GA airport.
Maybe we should make a New Year's Resolution to prevent that from happening on OUR DZ!


Marksman  (B 7)

Dec 9, 2011, 11:40 AM
Post #39 of 168 (2139 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi there. Not saying the helmet solves the hazard. What I pointed is a security procedure/practice, that its as important as approaching any aircraft AWAY from the propeller(s). I trutly believe that hitting aviation grade aluminium with thy head really hurts (a helmet solves this issue).

.2cents


(This post was edited by Marksman on Dec 9, 2011, 1:34 PM)


SethInMI  (A 47765)

Dec 9, 2011, 5:04 PM
Post #40 of 168 (2097 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel that the most likely event chain went like this:

1. Plane comes to a stop, pilot shuts off engine and gets out.
2. Pilot helps passenger out.
3. Passenger goes over to greet waiting people, hugs, chats, starts to walk away.
4. Meanwhile, pilot gets back in plane, fires up engine, prepares to leave.
5. Passenger hears engine fire up, realizes plane is about to leave, "Oh I forgot to say goodbye!" rushes back over to plane.
6. WHACK.

This jives with the observation that it is difficult to exit with the pilot in his seat, and it would be odd to leave the plane running with the pilot outside the plane, and the reported fact that the pilot was preparing to taxi when the injury occurred.


sacex250

Dec 9, 2011, 5:14 PM
Post #41 of 168 (2104 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I feel that the most likely event chain went like this:

1. Plane comes to a stop, pilot shuts off engine and gets out.
2. Pilot helps passenger out.
3. Passenger goes over to greet waiting people, hugs, chats, starts to walk away.
4. Meanwhile, pilot gets back in plane, fires up engine, prepares to leave.
5. Passenger hears engine fire up, realizes plane is about to leave, "Oh I forgot to say goodbye!" rushes back over to plane.
6. WHACK.

This jives with the observation that it is difficult to exit with the pilot in his seat, and it would be odd to leave the plane running with the pilot outside the plane, and the reported fact that the pilot was preparing to taxi when the injury occurred.
I hope for the pilot's sake it happened that way, but if it did happen that way I'm sure it would've been reported as such. So far, the only version seems to be that she got of the plane started to walk away and then turned around to go back and thank the pilot and walked into the prop.

I do think it's interesting that the preliminary accident report lists the pilot as a "wiitness."

ETA: I found this quote from the FAA.

Quote:
The Federal Aviation Administration said they are investigating the incident.

Lynn Lunsford, from the FAA, said: "It appears that the pilot left the engine running at idle while she exited the plane to switch places with another passenger.

"That's one of the aspects of the investigation."


(This post was edited by sacex250 on Dec 9, 2011, 5:21 PM)


SethInMI  (A 47765)

Dec 10, 2011, 6:59 AM
Post #42 of 168 (2043 views)
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Re: [sacex250] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah. Thanks for digging that up.

Seth


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Dec 10, 2011, 7:08 AM
Post #43 of 168 (2042 views)
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Re: [sacex250] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Proper training and awareness is the key.

As RiggerRob said, the general public is “clueless” as to the dangers involved. Even those that should be aware are often uninformed, lazy, in a hurry, complacent, or simply so caught up in their own ego that they are not “in the moment”. Safety needs to be taught, emphasized and reinforced on a regular basis. And when we see safety violations we need to speak out. Two weeks ago the Director of Maintenance at our facility pulled an airplane up twenty feet behind me, left the engine/prop at a high idle and ran 50 yards away to get a multimeter. When I complained he tried to defend the indefensible.

A former boss tells a story of a line boy that was instructed by the pilot to disconnect the GPU after engine start. Although the kid had (presumably) been trained, he was so eager to do his job he ran directly through the prop arc to reach the plug.

I seem to recall several years back where Skydive Chicago had TWO wuffos walk into the prop in a one month span.?

The list of stories like this goes on and on. Every one of them, preventable. I am sure there is nothing more horrific than seeing a human being cut in half by a propeller.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 10, 2011, 7:43 AM
Post #44 of 168 (2036 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I dunno...when I was a kid hanging out in the Air Force hangars with my dad...say a set of bomb bay doors close while someone was working in them. Standing in them. His legs dropped to the floor. Not much mess either. Of course he was still alive since the bomb bay doors completely sealed when they closed.
He was making a LOT of noise in the bomb bay when dad removed me from the hangar....
Unsure


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 13, 2011, 11:49 AM
Post #45 of 168 (1923 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The ones that scare me are big, high-wing planes (e.g. twin otter) where you can walk under the wing while the prop is spinning.

I once saw a fuelie walk between the fuselage and the prop of a twin otter... while it was running. fuck. that.

..............................................................

What's the danger?
It is standard procedure during hot-refueling.
As long as you keep one shoulder rubbing against the fuselage, there is zero risk of touching the propeller.


dorbie

Dec 16, 2011, 12:57 PM
Post #46 of 168 (1821 views)
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Re: [DvK] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When walking to the plane allways make sure you and other people don't get to close to that propeller! I make the choice of walking the 'safe route' even if the engine isn't running,

It is important to be aware of this if you ever ride the plane down. The aircraft will be in an unfamiliar orientation and you are getting off and walking a route you rarely if ever walk.

The only time I ever rode a plane down the young lady with me walked off straight towards the prop. I grabbed her rig by the shoulder and nudged her in a different direction. I'll never know if she'd have realized before it was too late but I suspect not. The prop was invisible and the noise was pervasive.


Iago  (D License)

Dec 16, 2011, 5:02 PM
Post #47 of 168 (1764 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is my story.

Back about 6 years ago we had a 182 and KA at the DZ. We only had a few jumpers so we flew a few 182 HP loads. The 182 had a problem starting from the ship battery (turned out to be some corrosion on the battery connections) so we pulled the DZO's car up to the tail and jump started it. The other three were in the plane already and I was assisting the hookup.

Plane starts up, unhook the cables and walk over to the grass (about 15 feet off the pilot side) where I had put my helmet. Pick up the helmet and start walking back. As I'm walking back I'm looking right to see if the tail has enough room to clear the hood of the car.

Walking forward, looking right, around a hot prop.

Getting the picture?

I don't know if it was luck, spidey-sense, or fate (the protector of fools and small children) that made me freeze in my tracks for a second and look forward.

I kid you not, I was dead on line with the prop less than five feet away. Another step and a half and it would have gutted me from belly to chin like a pig.

We had a head's up pilot back then who already had his hand on the key when I stopped.

I tell you I am not a religious man but something was looking out for me that day.

That evening I jumped on our DZ website forums, confessed my sine, and wrote up a detailed report of the 'near miss.'

Sometimes when this happens it is just what it is- an accident. Preventable? Of course. But had I taken that extra step it would have still been an accident.


(This post was edited by Iago on Dec 16, 2011, 5:05 PM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Dec 17, 2011, 12:16 AM
Post #48 of 168 (1739 views)
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Re: [Iago] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Our Caravans and other cessnas have their prop on the nose. So I tend to walk in a straight line to and from the door. Which I did when wanting to film a couple jumpers waving bye-bye in a 2prop Let at another DZ.
Luckily for me another heads- up jumper grabbed my shoulder.
I really really hadn't seen the prop under the wing I was about to walk under. And the noise of a couple planes running drowns out the very important noise right near you Pirate

I was just running on automatic, filming like I always do. It really amazed me how easy it was to miss that big noisy spinning meatgrinder near my head Shocked


DvK  (B License)

Dec 18, 2011, 9:59 AM
Post #49 of 168 (1662 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Our Caravans and other cessnas have their prop on the nose. So I tend to walk in a straight line to and from the door. Which I did when wanting to film a couple jumpers waving bye-bye in a 2prop Let at another DZ.
Luckily for me another heads- up jumper grabbed my shoulder.
I really really hadn't seen the prop under the wing I was about to walk under. And the noise of a couple planes running drowns out the very important noise right near you Pirate

I was just running on automatic, filming like I always do. It really amazed me how easy it was to miss that big noisy spinning meatgrinder near my head Shocked

The thing with props is that they are invisible when their radial speed is high. In other words: you will not see a fast-rotating prop. You have to know that it's there. I guess that it's a good idea to walk all the way around the wing of an aircraft, even if it's has a nose-prop. Just for habbits.

I can actually imagine loosing situational awareness when you're bussy filming. There's so much potential danger in this sport, you have to force yourself to be very aware at all times I suppose....


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 18, 2011, 11:01 PM
Post #50 of 168 (1612 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I mean why does people with more experience are the ones that bend the rules more explicitly? cmon please set the example

Because they have Mad Skillz and think they are "cool". You'll meet waaay too many of them.

Do yourself a major favor and don't be one of them.


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