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Canopy collision? anyone seen this one?

 


AlexDias  (A 61839)

Dec 5, 2011, 12:33 PM
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Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? Can't Post

Hey I just read this on 20minutes.ch (swiss free info site): "A skydiver crashes with another skydiver and end up paraplegic" with a video linked...
http://www.20min.ch/...d=228357&cid=120

So my question is: has any of you ever seen this? Comments?
I don't know if i am correct but i think he chops and release reserve while completely entangled with the other guy's main.. could that have been avoided ?

Would just like some insight to make sure this doesn't happen again...

Poor guy..

blue skies

FanOfFalling  (A 11499)

Dec 5, 2011, 1:56 PM
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Re: [AlexDias] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Protect your handles when getting wrapped, and/or do not chop a parachute and go back into freefall while wearing another jumpers chute.

skyjumpenfool  (Student 1)

Dec 5, 2011, 3:32 PM
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Razz is a very experienced CRW pilot. He visits here from time to time but can be found more easily on the CRW forum.

Hey Jim... what's the story here?

pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 5, 2011, 3:59 PM
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Re: [AlexDias] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

The first issue is the collision.

Looks like he got in close behind and above his buddy while flying their canopies, while getting video. His buddy hits full brakes and thus very rapidly comes back and up (in relative terms) at the jumper with video.

[Edit - added paragraph:] For those who haven't seen the video, the jumper with the video then ends up with a reserve not inflating much due to being choked off by the main canopy jettisoned by the front jumper. Someone would have to examine the video more closely to determine the detailed sequence of events.

I can imagine the conversation later: "Why did you hit brakes so suddenly - you came right at me!"
"But I thought you said you'd stay clear of me! I didn't see you back there! You should have avoided me."

Proximity canopy flight and CRW concepts have to be learned like anything else to avoid danger. The guy in front did a sudden maneuver (likely not realizing where his buddy was), and the guy behind didn't have the experience to anticipate and avoid in time.

The second issue is what to do after the collision.

I don't know if the jumpers had RSLs, but if they did, they may not have considered disconnection, if they hadn't thought specifically about canopy collision danger.

Cutting away when one's body isn't clear of lines is very bad, unless the options are worse.

I was going to quote something useful from the SIM -- but what's in there is actually rather unhelpful at first glance.

(P.107 of SIM 2012 seems to have the main instructions on what to do after a canopy collision. P. 132 & 133 cover CRW and provide a little more info. RSL's in section 5.3F, p112.)

Usually the SIM is pretty detailed and concise in instructions, but I can't find anything that says that it can be dangerous to cutaway if still entangled in a canopy. Yikes. (Anyone else find better instructions in there?)

The SIM seems a little muddled in its instructions about what to do in case of a collision. It's a messy topic, but still.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Dec 5, 2011, 4:15 PM)

pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 5, 2011, 4:25 PM
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Re: [AlexDias] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Another site, with links to the original youtube video.

http://storyful.com/stories/1000015201

Supposedly happened 4 1/2 yrs ago but video not posted until a day ago.

Squeak  (E 1313)

Dec 6, 2011, 12:28 AM
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In reply to:
Another site, with links to the original youtube video.

http://storyful.com/stories/1000015201

Supposedly happened 4 1/2 yrs ago but video not posted until a day ago.
the Quad camera flyer mentions that it took him four years to be able to look at the footage.

normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 6, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Re: [AlexDias] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would hope we would all fight more than just hold on and ride.
I would hope we would try to climb up those risers chasing the problem.

Easy to offer armchair advice I realize...but still.
Never stop fighting.
Never give up.

peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Dec 6, 2011, 11:48 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

How many jumps did the vid guy have? Possible that he was so fixated on getting the video that he didn't respond appropriately when the front guy hit the brakes?

dks13827  (C 9293)

Dec 6, 2011, 12:48 PM
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The video looks real...........but why can't we find info re: this incident ?

Ron

Dec 6, 2011, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
The video looks real...........but why can't we find info re: this incident ?

Not every accident gets reported to anyone. Add in that this might have been a few years ago and it was much worse.

lekstrom10k  (D 3001)

Dec 6, 2011, 1:08 PM
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Re: [AlexDias] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

 I saw this yesterday.WOW . If you listen at the end for the 911 directions its around Columbus Ohio . Or another Columbus.

johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Dec 6, 2011, 1:12 PM
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In reply to:
I would hope we would all fight more than just hold on and ride.
I would hope we would try to climb up those risers chasing the problem.
.

Would someone really be able to climb the suspension lines to try and untangle that?
Honest question - what could one really do at that stage?
I mean sure, never give up, try and climb the lines by all means, but I don't reckon it could be done. Perhaps with a thicker line type it could be...?

Southern_Man  (B License)

Dec 6, 2011, 1:29 PM
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In reply to:
I saw this yesterday.WOW . If you listen at the end for the 911 directions its around Columbus Ohio . Or another Columbus.

Wisconsin, I believe.

normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 6, 2011, 4:52 PM
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Re: [johnmatrix] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's difficult to guess for me, but there really isn't much material out, IMO anyway.
I'd certainly be tugging with both hands on a riser or two trying to change the attitude of the ball of shit. HARD.

Note to self: check hook knives on rig and consider upgrading them. (no - probably would have been of no use on this jump - but still)
Wink

VideoFly  (D 25621)

Dec 6, 2011, 6:22 PM
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Re: [AlexDias] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Where was the S&TA, the DZO, or other experienced skydivers who should have said NO, you are not getting on the plane with a plan for a stunt like that in mind? The jumper is lucky to have survived, and with others on the jump, it could have been much worse. What has happened to JUST SAY NO?

sacex250

Dec 6, 2011, 6:57 PM
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Re: [VideoFly] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Where was the S&TA, the DZO, or other experienced skydivers who should have said NO, you are not getting on the plane with a plan for a stunt like that in mind? The jumper is lucky to have survived, and with others on the jump, it could have been much worse. What has happened to JUST SAY NO?

What was the stunt? It seems like two jumpers were just flying together and the second jumper was too close entrail when the first jumper hit the brakes. Second jumper just "rear-ended" the first jumper. It looks like an accident; a preventable accident but a number of different factors coming together at once to create the outcome.

pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 6, 2011, 7:37 PM
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Re: [sacex250] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What was the stunt? It seems like two jumpers were just flying together

I'll have to agree.

We don't have any rules that say, "Any jumpers wishing to fly their canopies within 100' of each other must be signed off for CRW Flight Procedures, Signals, and Emergencies endorsements".

It sounds like the guy in front was quite CRW experienced (and can be seen to have a CRW canopy) and presumably could have given a more detailed briefing. He must feel pretty shitty about having his friend end up paralyzed, but I can see that it would be quite normal not to have a detailed briefing. "I'm going to do the thing with the kite. Hang out and video me if you can but don't get too close." Ideally though, since he had the knowledge to help make the dive safer, it would have been good had he taught the others more. Avoiding sudden changes in his flight path, when flying with less experienced jumpers, would also be good.

(Of course we are making assumptions about briefings; we don't actually know what was said.)

Some sort of CRW briefing would be good for any proximity canopy flight.


I'm surprised there isn't more comment about the SIM -- as far as I saw, there was nothing about emergency procedures if entangled in lines, even though canopy collisions is a topic.

Edit: I now found something about 'following lines out' if entangled, before starting emergency procedures. That's in section 6-6 F 8 about CRW. At least that's something, but I still think it could be a lot clearer, and in the general canopy collisions section.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Dec 6, 2011, 8:20 PM)

VideoFly  (D 25621)

Dec 6, 2011, 8:56 PM
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Did I miss something about the kite flying?

mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Dec 7, 2011, 5:25 AM
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Re: [VideoFly] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a small red kite towed by the canopy in front - about the size of a keyboard and shaped like a wwi bi-plane.

It wasn't the cause of the accident though (save as for maybe the trailing guy wanting to get close to film it).

mircan  (D 32291)

Dec 7, 2011, 7:12 AM
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Re: [johnmatrix] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would someone really be able to climb the suspension lines to try and untangle that? ...

...I mean sure, never give up, try and climb the lines by all means, but I don't reckon it could be done. Perhaps with a thicker line type it could be...?

A buddy of mine who works as as military test jumper climbed the lines on his reserve when slider got stuck all the way up the lines Pirate
He solved it of course (he is still with us and jumping) Smile
So it can be done. But you have to be tough (spec.ops tough)

popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 7, 2011, 7:34 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(P.107 of SIM 2012 seems to have the main instructions on what to do after a canopy collision. P. 132 & 133 cover CRW and provide a little more info. RSL's in section 5.3F, p112.)

Usually the SIM is pretty detailed and concise in instructions, but I can't find anything that says that it can be dangerous to cutaway if still entangled in a canopy. Yikes. (Anyone else find better instructions in there?)

The SIM seems a little muddled in its instructions about what to do in case of a collision. It's a messy topic, but still.

Cat B C-8-c
c. If in a canopy entanglement with another jumper
below 1,000 feet and it appears the canopies
cannot be separated in time for a safe landing,
deploy the reserve (will result in a cutaway with
the SOS system, so may not be an option).

5-3 F-c
c. RSLs can complicate certain emergency procedures:
(1) cutaway following a dual deployment
(2) cutting away from an entanglement after
a collision
(3) unstable cutaway, although statistics show

6-6 F
1. Entanglements are the greatest hazards when building
canopy formations.
2. Jumpers should know their altitude at all times,
because altitude will often dictate the course of action.
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs
as wide as possible to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines.

b. The other hand is used to protect the
reserve ripcord.
4. Jumpers should be specific in discussing
their intentions.
5. If altitude allows, emergency procedures should proceed
only after acknowledgment by other jumper(s).
6. In the event of multiple cutaways and if altitude
allows, jumpers should stagger reserve openings to
avoid possible canopy collisions.
7. Respond to the given situation.
a. When entanglements occur, jumpers must be
prepared to react quickly and creatively.
b. In many cases, the emergency is one that can’t be
prepared for in advance; it may even be a problem
no one imagined could happen.
8. If the entanglement occurs with sufficient altitude,
the jumpers should attempt to clear the entanglement
by following lines out before initiating emergency
procedures.
9. Jumpers should try to land together following a canopy
relative work emergency.

5-1 H-3-c
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Tuck in your arms, legs and head

Note the bolded discrepancy above

5-1 H-3-e
e. Communicate before taking action:
(1) The jumper above can strike the jumper
below during a cutaway unless one or both
are clear or ready to fend off.
(2) The jumper below can worsen the situation
for the jumper above by cutting away before
he or she is ready.
(3) If both jumpers are cutting away and altitude
permits, the second jumper should wait until
the first jumper clears the area below.
(4) The first jumper should fly from underneath
in a straight line after opening.
(5) At some point below a safe cutaway altitude
(1,000 feet), it may become necessary to
deploy one or both reserves (may not be a
safe option with an SOS system).
(6) If both jumpers are suspended under one flying
canopy at a low altitude, it may become
necessary to land with only that canopy.
(7) Communications may be difficult if one or
both jumpers are wearing full-face helmets.



I'm still wondering how/why the guys blue reserve is out unless that blue canopy is his main. If it was the main, I'm wondering why he did not cutaway.

Ron

Dec 7, 2011, 7:48 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm still wondering how/why the guys blue reserve is out unless that blue canopy is his main. If it was the main, I'm wondering why he did not cutaway.

See my post here: http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 7, 2011, 7:48 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

For simplicity:

Wraps and entanglements

Wrap is when the bottom jumpers canopy is wrapped around the upper jumpers body.

Entanglement is when the bottom jumpers canopy is entangled in the upper jumpers lines.

Wrap
-Communicate intentions
-Lower jumper cuts away first and deploys reserve and then flies out from under immediately.
-Upper jumper removes canopy if possible and lands his good-flying main.

Entanglement
-Communicate intentions
-Upper jumper disconnects RSL and cuts away first and deploys reserve after clearing lower jumper and then flies out from under immediately.
-Lower jumper cuts and deploys reserve after upper guys is out of the way.



Yes, everything is altitude dependent.

What would have them do if it happens at a low altitude? Yes, "low" is subjective.

pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 7, 2011, 8:15 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Pops,
I notice the latest SIM, 2012, has added more to the CRW section 6-6, so now it mentions getting big if the lines are Dacron, but small if the lines are made of other thinner material. The section on entanglements (not in CRW) sticks with getting small.

So there have been some recent changes in wording.

As for Wrap vs. Entanglement, I know how those are distinguished in CRW but I wonder whether the terms are applied that precisely all the time. The SIM in contrast just talks about entanglements in a more general sense, referring to all canopy collisions, and doesn't use the term wrap.

It's not easy to figure out just what the SIM should say.

popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 7, 2011, 8:27 AM
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In reply to:
Hey Pops,
I notice the latest SIM, 2012, has added more to the CRW section 6-6, so now it mentions getting big if the lines are Dacron, but small if the lines are made of other thinner material. The section on entanglements (not in CRW) sticks with getting small.

So there have been some recent changes in wording.
Yes. My SIM references was from the 2011 SIM.

As far as "get big" vs "get small"....somebody needs to make up their mind. If I'm heading for a collision, I really don't think I'm going to be peeling eyeballs trying to distinguish dacron from spectra.

In reply to:
As for Wrap vs. Entanglement, I know how those are distinguished in CRW but I wonder whether the terms are applied that precisely all the time.
IMO, they should be...across the board.

In reply to:
It's not easy to figure out just what the SIM should say.
Hence the problem of so many people teaching so many different things.
Unsure


Just FYI...my post on "simplicity" was not directed at you. I posted it mainly for the youngsters. Some of the old-timers are going to have different opinions for what they would do and that's fine....as long as they don't confuse the youngsters with 15 different plans.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 7, 2011, 8:33 AM)

Southern_Man  (B License)

Dec 7, 2011, 10:18 AM
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Found this article on the video although it doesn't really help much:

http://host.madison.com/...e3-0019bb2963f4.html

Summary: No report of an accident at the alleged time of the video. Not able to successfully contact the person involved in the accident.

I believe this may have been at Seven Hills skydivers, but not sure. The location fits.

humanflite  (D 99999)

Dec 7, 2011, 11:20 AM
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Re: [Southern_Man] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

holy sh*t.
thats really nasty.... its easy to armchair critic such a scary video but as a few others have said, I WOULD have got up those lines to increase material or gone in trying.

Whats going on at 2:39 in the video? theres a green canopy above his head, that looks a hell of a lot better than what he ends up with... :(

Kudos for the injured jumper uploading this, quadraplegia is a terribly sad result for him.


(This post was edited by humanflite on Dec 7, 2011, 11:25 AM)

mhotch  (C 39398)

Dec 7, 2011, 11:53 AM
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Re: [humanflite] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw the same thing at 2:39-2:43 there's an edit where he's got an okay canopy that is green on the end cells, then it cuts to him looking up at an entangled baby blue reserve with Razz's cutaway canopy. What happened in those 3-5 seconds that were cut could be critical, I think. He seemed to have a canopy, then all of a sudden, he's looking up at that. I also noticed at 2:34 you can make out a red RSL ribbon on the left Riser. Don't know if that matters - maybe he decided to cutway his main and the RSL deployed his reserve into the canopy he was holding.

-ftp-

Dec 7, 2011, 1:15 PM
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Re: [mhotch] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

it doesnt look like his green (end cells) canopy is good. It looks like he cut it away and it got caught up on him a little. his slider seems to be wrapped around the camera a little then he gets it off. I dont think its an edit, i think its his main leaving fast, which pulled his rsl and launched the reserve into the other jumpers main.

skyjumpenfool  (Student 1)

Dec 7, 2011, 1:27 PM
Post #30 of 49 (1159 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

For what it's worth...
I've had the pleasure of making many CRW jumps with RAZ including a 25 way Wisconsin Record a couple years ago. He has recruited and trained many CRW pups and is largely responsible for a resurgence in CRW training and safety over the past few years in the mid-west. If this was a CRW jump (which I doubt but don't know for sure) I can guarantee a thorough safety briefing including emergency procedures was given by RAZ!!

dragraceit  (D 29265)

Dec 7, 2011, 4:04 PM
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I was on this jump ! I try and avoid commenting on stuff like this ! but would like to clear up a few things !
1) yes we had a safety briefing, I remember the number one rule stay the f#@% away from the kite!
2) this was investigated by local police and the FAA, I'm almost 100% sure we filed a incident report!
they confiscated the injured jumpers video equipment and my video tape of the incident ! and reviewed, no one was found negligent !

3) it was a slow day at our drop zone, only a few people on site, no S&TAs on site.
4) the video you see has been edited , the wrapped jumper did have a good main canopy over his head, he performed his emergency procedures.
and deployed his reserve canopy into the wrap .
I don’t remember if he had an RSL .
5) the injured jumper had CRW training,

popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 7, 2011, 4:17 PM
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In reply to:
4) the video you see has been edited , the wrapped jumper did have a good main canopy over his head, he performed his emergency procedures.
and deployed his reserve canopy into the wrap .
I don’t remember if he had an RSL .
5) the injured jumper had CRW training,

Clarification needed. which one in your reference was the wrapped jumper (upper one?) and if he had a good main, why the cutaway?

dragraceit  (D 29265)

Dec 7, 2011, 4:26 PM
Post #33 of 49 (1099 views)
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yes the upper one, the one doing the video got wrapped !
and you are correct, why cut away a good canopy !

my guess is he panicked and went to his EPs

blueskies120  (D 24197)

Dec 7, 2011, 4:27 PM
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Hey pops,

I am the S@TA at seven hills and helped with the incident report. The wrapped person was Tim Brown the person flying right behind the kite. I am not sure why he cut away other then he just panicked and cut away a perfectly good parachute.

Tim had about 150 jumps at the time and was told to stay away from the kite.

Jay Kedley

dragraceit  (D 29265)

Dec 7, 2011, 4:29 PM
Post #35 of 49 (1093 views)
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are you the only S&TA AT seven hills ???
Wink

blueskies120  (D 24197)

Dec 7, 2011, 4:45 PM
Post #36 of 49 (1081 views)
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Sorry didn't mean to step on your toes i replied before reading. I will leave this one for you.

(edit) I was the S@TA at the time of the incident.

wayneflorida  (D 30566)

Dec 8, 2011, 5:54 AM
Post #37 of 49 (997 views)
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In reply to:
Hey pops,

I am the S@TA at seven hills and helped with the incident report. The wrapped person was Tim Brown the person flying right behind the kite. I am not sure why he cut away other then he just panicked and cut away a perfectly good parachute.

Tim had about 150 jumps at the time and was told to stay away from the kite.

Jay Kedley

Question.

Was the jumper decending straight down or was he spinning out on the lines?

Did the jumper just crash into the ground or did he take the last few seconds of descent thinking about doing the best PLF he could or was possible?

topdocker  (D 12018)

Dec 8, 2011, 8:21 AM
Post #38 of 49 (958 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
(P.107 of SIM 2012 seems to have the main instructions on what to do after a canopy collision. P. 132 & 133 cover CRW and provide a little more info. RSL's in section 5.3F, p112.)

Usually the SIM is pretty detailed and concise in instructions, but I can't find anything that says that it can be dangerous to cutaway if still entangled in a canopy. Yikes. (Anyone else find better instructions in there?)

The SIM seems a little muddled in its instructions about what to do in case of a collision. It's a messy topic, but still.

Cat B C-8-c
c. If in a canopy entanglement with another jumper
below 1,000 feet and it appears the canopies
cannot be separated in time for a safe landing,
deploy the reserve (will result in a cutaway with
the SOS system, so may not be an option).

5-3 F-c
c. RSLs can complicate certain emergency procedures:
(1) cutaway following a dual deployment
(2) cutting away from an entanglement after
a collision
(3) unstable cutaway, although statistics show

6-6 F
1. Entanglements are the greatest hazards when building
canopy formations.
2. Jumpers should know their altitude at all times,
because altitude will often dictate the course of action.
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs
as wide as possible to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines.

b. The other hand is used to protect the
reserve ripcord.
4. Jumpers should be specific in discussing
their intentions.
5. If altitude allows, emergency procedures should proceed
only after acknowledgment by other jumper(s).
6. In the event of multiple cutaways and if altitude
allows, jumpers should stagger reserve openings to
avoid possible canopy collisions.
7. Respond to the given situation.
a. When entanglements occur, jumpers must be
prepared to react quickly and creatively.
b. In many cases, the emergency is one that can’t be
prepared for in advance; it may even be a problem
no one imagined could happen.
8. If the entanglement occurs with sufficient altitude,
the jumpers should attempt to clear the entanglement
by following lines out before initiating emergency
procedures.
9. Jumpers should try to land together following a canopy
relative work emergency.

5-1 H-3-c
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Tuck in your arms, legs and head

Note the bolded discrepancy above

5-1 H-3-e
e. Communicate before taking action:
(1) The jumper above can strike the jumper
below during a cutaway unless one or both
are clear or ready to fend off.
(2) The jumper below can worsen the situation
for the jumper above by cutting away before
he or she is ready.
(3) If both jumpers are cutting away and altitude
permits, the second jumper should wait until
the first jumper clears the area below.
(4) The first jumper should fly from underneath
in a straight line after opening.
(5) At some point below a safe cutaway altitude
(1,000 feet), it may become necessary to
deploy one or both reserves (may not be a
safe option with an SOS system).
(6) If both jumpers are suspended under one flying
canopy at a low altitude, it may become
necessary to land with only that canopy.
(7) Communications may be difficult if one or
both jumpers are wearing full-face helmets.

We atteempted to update the SIM with regard to canopy collisions last year. We might have missed some areas where it is repeated.

Mostly the change in wording is to reflect the change in canopy lines and speeds. Sticking your arms and legs out in a collision with today's gear, you might not have a limb to work with, and it is easier to cover your handles with your arms in.

Tough video to watch at the end there....

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mik  (D 11111)

Dec 8, 2011, 8:27 AM
Post #39 of 49 (958 views)
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Re: [blueskies120] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey pops,

I am the S@TA at seven hills and helped with the incident report. The wrapped person was Tim Brown the person flying right behind the kite. I am not sure why he cut away other then he just panicked and cut away a perfectly good parachute.

Tim had about 150 jumps at the time and was told to stay away from the kite.

Jay Kedley

Without having looked at the video (slow internet connection at the moment) was there a conclusion about the injured jumper's jump numbers (150) and the presence of him wearing a camera having anything to do with the incident?

Ron

Dec 8, 2011, 9:51 AM
Post #40 of 49 (934 views)
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Re: [mik] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Without having looked at the video (slow internet connection at the moment) was there a conclusion about the injured jumper's jump numbers (150) and the presence of him wearing a camera having anything to do with the incident?

Good catch!

Yes, the desire to get "good video" could have easily made him fly closer than he should have and his focus on getting the "right shot" could have distracted him from seeing and avoiding soon enough.

skyjumpenfool  (Student 1)

Dec 8, 2011, 9:51 AM
Post #41 of 49 (936 views)
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Re: [mik] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Hey pops,

I am the S@TA at seven hills and helped with the incident report. The wrapped person was Tim Brown the person flying right behind the kite. I am not sure why he cut away other then he just panicked and cut away a perfectly good parachute.

Tim had about 150 jumps at the time and was told to stay away from the kite.

Jay Kedley

Without having looked at the video (slow internet connection at the moment) was there a conclusion about the injured jumper's jump numbers (150) and the presence of him wearing a camera having anything to do with the incident?

Dah!!
-----------
Thanks for the "First Hand" information. I knew there was more to this incident. It really looks like the camera flyer just got too close. Since no CRW was planned, up and behind was a really bad place to park the camera. Great example of why you need 200 jumps MINIMUM to bolt on a camera. Unsure

Also, this should serve as an example of why proximity flying is dangerous and should be well planned.

Schoenauer  (D License)

Dec 8, 2011, 11:29 AM
Post #42 of 49 (911 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am under the impression that there are three types of canopy collision:

Wrap – When only the canopy or part of the canopy is wrapped around the jumper
Entanglement – When a jumper or part of the jumper has passed through one or more lines
Body to Body—Self explanatory



“The SIM seems a little muddled in its instructions about what to do in case of a collision.”

Quote:
5-1 H-3
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Tuck in your arms, legs and head


6-6 F
1. Entanglements are the greatest hazards when building
canopy formations.
2. Jumpers should know their altitude at all times,
because altitude will often dictate the course of action.
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs as wide as possible to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines.


Note the bolded discrepancy above

My question about this discrepancy is why did the USPA make the change in 5-1 H-3.b to the 10-11 SIM from the previous 09-10 SIM?

From the 09-10 USPA SIM:

5-1 H-3.b

3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Spread your legs to avoid going between lines.


What do they what Instructors to teach students?


(This post was edited by Schoenauer on Dec 8, 2011, 1:56 PM)

topdocker  (D 12018)

Dec 8, 2011, 1:56 PM
Post #43 of 49 (877 views)
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Re: [Schoenauer] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am under the impression that there are three types of canopy collision:

Wrap – When only the canopy or part of the canopy is wrapped around the jumper
Entanglement – When a jumper or part of the jumper has passed through one or more lines
Body to Body—Self explanatory

“The SIM seems a little muddled in its instructions about what to do in case of a collision.”

Quote:
5-1 H-3
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Tuck in your arms, legs and head


6-6 F
1. Entanglements are the greatest hazards when building
canopy formations.
2. Jumpers should know their altitude at all times,
because altitude will often dictate the course of action.
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs as wide as possible to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines.


Note the bolded discrepancy above

My question about this discrepancy is why did the USPA make the change in 5-1 H-3.b to the 10-11 SIM from the previous 10-09 SIM?

From the 09-10 USPA SIM:
5-1 H-3.b
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Spread your legs to avoid going between lines.


What do they what Instructors to teach students?

USPA has been trying to modify what to do in the event of a canopy collision to reflect the higher speeds of canopies and smaller dimensions of lines by having jumpers pull in their arms and legs, tuck their heads, and cover your handles. If you hit HMA with an arm at 70 MPH, you may not have a functional arm afterward (if its still attached). The original "spread out" was from the days of rounds, and closing speeds were much less.

The idea is you have to survive the collision first, and be able to think and operate after. By essentially PLFing into the other canopy, you have the greatest chance of being able to respond and survive. Also, it is critical to keep your handles covered to prevent accidental deployment of your reserve.

Does that help?
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sacex250

Dec 8, 2011, 5:55 PM
Post #44 of 49 (839 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Great example of why you need 200 jumps MINIMUM to bolt on a camera.
1) You don't NEED 200 jumps to jump a camera, it's RECOMMENDED per USPA, but...

2) ...the recommendation is not 200 jumps, it's a C-License.

3) Flying above and behind someone is not a good place to be whether or not you have a camera.

4) Avoiding a canopy collision, usually involves trying to AVOID a canopy collision, which this jumper made no attempt to do.

Maybe someday, somebody will decide that it's actually in the best interests of the sport to create a camera "endorsement" for jumpers that want to use small format cameras. Until then, the sport will preach abstinence over education as if that's the answer to every situation.

lekstrom10k  (D 3001)

Dec 8, 2011, 7:05 PM
Post #45 of 49 (817 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

 After checking a map It was at Seven Hills in Wisconsin still dont know what year.

popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 9, 2011, 6:53 AM
Post #46 of 49 (766 views)
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Re: [Schoenauer] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am under the impression that there are three types of canopy collision:

Wrap – When only the canopy or part of the canopy is wrapped around the jumper
Entanglement – When a jumper or part of the jumper has passed through one or more lines
Body to Body—Self explanatory

Wrap - correct

Entanglement - it all about the canopy, not the jumper. One's canopy can be entangled with another without the jumper having gone through the lines.

Body-to-Body - since we were talking about canopy problems, I didn't bother to mention body-to-body collisions. If two bodies collide, and the canopies don't wrap or entangle, you are one lucky S.O.B....IF you're still conscious and functioning.

Ron

Dec 9, 2011, 1:55 PM
Post #47 of 49 (713 views)
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Re: [sacex250] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1) You don't NEED 200 jumps to jump a camera, it's RECOMMENDED per USPA, but...

2) ...the recommendation is not 200 jumps, it's a C-License.

And you have to have min 200 to get a "C".

The point:

Quote:
a. Prior to jumping, a skydiver should have enough general jump experience to be able to handle any skydiving emergency or minor problem easily and without stress.

b. A camera flyer should possess freefall flying skills well above average and applicable to the planned jump.

(1) belly-to-earth

(2) freeflying (upright and head-down)

(3) canopy formation

(4) multiple (for skysurfing, filming student training jumps, etc.)

It seems that most agree that flying above and behind while filming CRW was a bad choice.

I think it is very safe to think that the camera and the desire to get the shot contributed to this accident.

kd5xb  (Student)

Dec 9, 2011, 5:08 PM
Post #48 of 49 (677 views)
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Re: [AlexDias] Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched up until the reserve and other jumpers main were a ball of crap, then I stopped. I figure that's pretty close to the last thing a good friend of mine saw some years ago. I couldn't watch any more.

I can tell you this -- years ago I jumped with a Super 8 movie camera -- and I thought I was Superman. Thirty years later, I KNOW I'm fragile. Well, no more than anybody else, but a fall form anything over about 50 feet isn't something I'm sure I WANT to survive.

And after a 30-year break from skydiving, I don't think I'll even think about taking a camera for a long, long time.

Slow down, people -- too much "hurry" will get you problems in all kinds of things, not just skydiving.


(This post was edited by kd5xb on Dec 9, 2011, 5:09 PM)

johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Dec 11, 2011, 2:46 PM
Post #49 of 49 (607 views)
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Re: Canopy collision? anyone seen this one? [In reply to] Can't Post

This guy was on TV in Australia this morning.

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/...skydiver-s-survival/

It would have been good to get some better questions from the interviewer, she really is shithouse.


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