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HP From an Old Fart

 

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virgin-burner

Nov 29, 2011, 7:25 PM
Post #126 of 463 (1226 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

what is this PLF you're speaking of exactly!?

Tongue


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 29, 2011, 7:34 PM
Post #127 of 463 (1221 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
what is this PLF you're speaking of exactly!?

Tongue

Are you being a dick or do you truly not know?

Either way it illustrates the problem in a way that my poor prose cannot.


virgin-burner

Nov 30, 2011, 1:26 AM
Post #128 of 463 (1208 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
what is this PLF you're speaking of exactly!?

Tongue

Are you being a dick or do you truly not know?

Either way it illustrates the problem in a way that my poor prose cannot.

a bit of both; i have never learned how to do a PLF.

there was an article on here not too long ago An inconvenient truth regarding PLF's, which you may like to read..


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 30, 2011, 3:41 AM
Post #129 of 463 (1203 views)
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Re: [Marisan / Trae] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you weren't trained by someone accepted by the CSO (Club Safety Officer) and didn't pass an EXAM administered by the CSO you didn't jump that hot Strato Star or Strato Cloud or (Gasp) Strato Flyer. You also had to have built up you experience on non wing type canopies before anyone would even look at you.
...
If you haven't had the training (And I mean TRAINING not a 10 minute brief on what to expect) well, then you don't jump that canopy whatever wingloading it is.

Quote:
our industry will pull its finger out eventually and mandate canopy type/ experience levels


Now you've both said what others have been posting. It's not the canopy, it's the pilot.

Don't waste your time trying to convince anyone that you could ban a canopy. Train the pilot.

Hopefully, the sport can develop and deliver better canopy training to all those who need it.


DaVinciflies

Nov 30, 2011, 6:13 AM
Post #130 of 463 (1185 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
a bit of both; i have never learned how to do a PLF.

there was an article on here not too long ago An inconvenient truth regarding PLF's, which you may like to read..

I suggest that you learn how to do one. Who the hell taught you to skydive without covering PLFs? That's borderline negligent IMO.

Not know how to do a PLF is not a "badge of honour". It is a technique that could quite possibly save you from serious injury. The article you quote does NOT negate the need for PLFs, it merely argues that there are times when it may not be the best option.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 30, 2011, 10:07 AM
Post #131 of 463 (1167 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
what is this PLF you're speaking of exactly!?

Tongue

Are you being a dick or do you truly not know?

Either way it illustrates the problem in a way that my poor prose cannot.

a bit of both; i have never learned how to do a PLF.

there was an article on here not too long ago An inconvenient truth regarding PLF's, which you may like to read..

VB.... 33 years ago, I rode a streamer in from 500' (CRW gone bad). Im alive today and perfectly healthy because, in great part, I was well trained at PLF's. I learned this technique in cliff diving, competitive gymnastics, and skydiving. I practiced it often!! I still do and I'm twice your age (probably more).

The thread you site offers reasons why PLF's don't work well with todays canopies. But, how about when the s#!+ hits the fan???? Learn a good PLF, practice them often, live to do one again. That is all!


virgin-burner

Nov 30, 2011, 10:24 AM
Post #132 of 463 (1162 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

i merely suggested that article and stated we were not trained how to do one.

i've done martial arts for a long time, and especially in judo, we were "PLFing" for hours on end..

not saying i dont know how to do it, just saying it wasnt part of the curriculum. that's all! Smile


tmccann  (A 61009)

Nov 30, 2011, 1:21 PM
Post #133 of 463 (1147 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i've done martial arts for a long time, and especially in judo, we were "PLFing" for hours on end..

not saying i dont know how to do it, just saying it wasnt part of the curriculum. that's all! Smile

uh, I'm a newbie skydiver, but I've done my share of Judo, too, and I never learned a PLF in the dojo. I learned how to fall/roll without hurting myself from being thrown, too, but the PLF is different - you'll be coming in a lot hotter if the fit hits the shan here, still connected to a harness. The very few times I've been thrown back on my feet, with someone holding onto my shoulder, I wasn't going all that fast, so I don't think that experience is relevant to skydiving...

T


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 30, 2011, 1:35 PM
Post #134 of 463 (1144 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i merely suggested that article and stated we were not trained how to do one.

i've done martial arts for a long time, and especially in judo, we were "PLFing" for hours on end..

not saying i dont know how to do it, just saying it wasnt part of the curriculum. that's all! Smile

I can't believe that PLF's aren't taught.

It's a basic survival skill.

What other survival skills aren't taught? (Besides good judgement and a healthy dose of respect for what you are doing)


(This post was edited by Marisan on Nov 30, 2011, 3:20 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 30, 2011, 1:57 PM
Post #135 of 463 (1139 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
i merely suggested that article and stated we were not trained how to do one.

i've done martial arts for a long time, and especially in judo, we were "PLFing" for hours on end..

not saying i dont know how to do it, just saying it wasnt part of the curriculum. that's all! Smile

I can't believe that PLF's aren't taught.

It's a basic survival skill.

What other survival skills aren't taught?

I have a good friend that went through a whole AFF program on the left coast without ever being in a hanging harness or having the entirety of the cut-away procedures explained to him.

Never were any type of EP drills recommended or practiced beyone the 1st jump 'pull this then pull that'

...Not until his A license and going to a different DZ did he realize the poor quality of his instruction.


virgin-burner

Nov 30, 2011, 2:43 PM
Post #136 of 463 (1128 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

what is this "hanging harness" you're speaking of!? Tongue


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 30, 2011, 3:00 PM
Post #137 of 463 (1123 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
what is this "hanging harness" you're speaking of!? Tongue

Go away and play your silly games somewhere else.


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 30, 2011, 4:29 PM
Post #138 of 463 (1110 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Do you think any canopy under 168-170 is a high performance canopy? If so why?

No.

Let's take discussions of the definition of HP canopies to G+R and leave this thread for discussions of the incident itself.

OK Bill Von here it is!

Any Canopy that, when it opens in line twists, spins up to a speed that makes cutaways problematic is by definition lethal.

Any canopy, that has to be regularly opened at 4500' to give time to deal with high speed malfunctions is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can kill by a mere 90 degree wind change is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that turns and dives so fast as to make any attempt to clear airspace impossible is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can be totally collapsed by turbulence is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can be docked on by a wingsuit is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can exceed the parameters of an AAD is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can cause a cutaway from a brake fire is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that with the slightest lapse of currency or attention can cause injury is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that (even on a test jump) that can cause GLOC (Google it) is by definition lethal.

I'm sure you can think of more and I'm certainly sure the guys with Mad Skillz will flame away.

Flame as much as you like because it's only luck keeping you out of the incident forum!

For the benefit of those that didn't read the first post here it is again.
I challenge you to find one of my 10 points that hasn't caused a fatality. Oops, should have exempted the Wingsuit docking on a Canopy.

One thing that this thread has shown is that the training given on HP Canopies is so inadequate as to be almost criminal.

When the Royal Australian Air Force was flying Mirage fighters one of the final exercises was low level night navigation. The students were told during their briefing that " If you stuff this up you WILL die"

And they had 6 months of training on the Mirage prior to getting to this point.


(This post was edited by Marisan on Nov 30, 2011, 4:34 PM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 30, 2011, 5:45 PM
Post #139 of 463 (1098 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i merely suggested that article and stated we were not trained how to do one.

i've done martial arts for a long time, and especially in judo, we were "PLFing" for hours on end..

not saying i dont know how to do it, just saying it wasnt part of the curriculum. that's all! Smile

OK. So you say you know how to do PLF's. When was the last time you spent any time practicing them? Not doing martial arts, but practicing skydiving PLF's? I'll go even farther.... When was the last time you practiced them off a 3-4 foot platform?
Good Lord! Jumpers don't practice PLF's or EP's anymore? How can we possibly expect anyone to get canopy training? Not trying to pick on VB, but, it does exemplify my point.
Unsure


virgin-burner

Nov 30, 2011, 6:18 PM
Post #140 of 463 (1092 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

just to be fair, i think i train my EP's on each and every jump like five times.. and, on my last and first reserve, it seemed to work quite well! Smile


btvr  (A 39209)

Nov 30, 2011, 8:08 PM
Post #141 of 463 (1079 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it all depends on the DZ and general attitude of the jumpers for EPs and canopy progression. I know at my DZ, EPs and PLFs are regularly practiced for students.
As for canopies? I think it's the individual mindset that is the big problem and with some people WL enforcement is necessary. I'm currently jumping a triathlon loaded at 1.0 WL. I'm looking into getting a 9 cell either Safire 2 or Pilot and maybe downsize to a 1.1 WL. After speaking with one of the instructors at my DZ he suggested I demo the 9 cell at the same WL as my tri first. He said he had no doubt I could handle the 1.1 but better to be safe. You know what? I will follow his advice! Why? Because I respect his experience and I do not want to get hurt. I know the risks with our sport and I RESPECT it!
I "grew up" in the sport with the canopy issue on the rise and knew in order to be safe and continue was not to be stupid. I took a canopy control course on my own accord not because I was forced to but because I wanted to become a safer pilot.
I don't think the HP canopies are the issue. I'm not for banning anything. It's the so called hot shots that are either too cocky or too stupid to seek out the training and/or advice of the respected experienced jumpers. Just my opinion.Wink


Trae  (Student)

Dec 1, 2011, 12:53 PM
Post #142 of 463 (1048 views)
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Re: [davelepka] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to "Here's where your disconenct from reality is showing through. The Sabre2 and the Spectre are most certainly NOT HP canopipes. "

and later on
"It just depends on the WL. If people loaded them the same way they loaded a Pegasus, the Sabre2 is not high performance. "
.........................................

Thanks for clarifying that, its getting much easier to totally agree with you.

I'm thinking that an ideal newbie learning canopy, say up to 100 jumps , would be better off having reltively heavy control input required.
Not so heavy that you can't operate it, but heavy enough so a newbie can really feel what they're doing.

Perhaps the lighter toggle/riser pressure is part of the disconnect that gets them / us into trouble...making the canopies just that much easier to over-control when people get too excited or surprised by something...even if they are used to it when things are more normal.

The attachment is from TIME Dec5 2011 mag , a Nobel-winning psychologist and economist Daniel Kahneman.

In his world , people would have to consciously opt out of decent canopy training rather than into it.
Attachments: Daniel Kahneman.JPG (134 KB)


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 1, 2011, 9:10 PM
Post #143 of 463 (1017 views)
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Re: [Trae] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

So the consensus on this thread is that the high rate of injury and death is caused by untrained pilots flying high performance canopies.
Can we agree on that?
Given that, there are two ways to go about solving the problem.

Remove the canopies (And I've said before that, realistically, that's not going to happen unless you carry a really big stick like the FEDS do) or remove the untrained pilots (Either by stopping them jumping or training them to a more than adequate standard.)

Adequate training is going to cost lots of money so who's going to pay?

Well who benefits from this mad craze to downsize?

The manufacturers, that's who!

So, since they make the big bucks, make THEM responsible for the training. ie: They come up with a "Pilots Operational Handbook" like the fixed wing manufacturers do. (And that's not just a packing guide but a description of everything they found on their REGULATED test jumps and how to avoid the nasties that were found) They PAY to train qualified instructors on their latest little canopy and the prospective jumpers pay to get that training BEFORE they jump those canopies (And that includes mentoring after the first jump)

If the manufacturers won't do this then their canopies don't get a TSO and NOBODY jumps them. (That also means NOBODY buys them)

If you guys can't do this it means that you've lost control of YOUR sport to money and egos.

If you're going to flame me please do me the courtesy of reading this post and digesting it first.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 1, 2011, 9:20 PM
Post #144 of 463 (1015 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

>If the manufacturers won't do this then their canopies don't get a TSO and NOBODY jumps them.

Main canopies don't need TSO's.


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 1, 2011, 9:37 PM
Post #145 of 463 (1013 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>If the manufacturers won't do this then their canopies don't get a TSO and NOBODY jumps them.

Main canopies don't need TSO's.

Well maybe they SHOULD have a TSO given their potential to kill jumpers.

If it's all too hard just accept the carnage and what's coming down the road.

In this thread about 60% of respondents say the problem is a lack of training. 30% say the canopies are the problem and the remainder are flamers.

At least I've come up with an idea (however flawed that idea may be) to address the training problem.

I expect those of you still in the sport to either suggest something different or refine my idea.

If you can't do this well, you have truly lost control of your sport.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 1, 2011, 10:03 PM
Post #146 of 463 (1007 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

EDIT:

Nevermind, it isn't worth the time or effort here.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Dec 1, 2011, 10:11 PM)


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 1, 2011, 10:11 PM
Post #147 of 463 (1005 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
>If the manufacturers won't do this then their canopies don't get a TSO and NOBODY jumps them.

Main canopies don't need TSO's.

Well maybe they SHOULD have a TSO given their potential to kill jumpers.

If it's all too hard just accept the carnage and what's coming down the road.

In this thread about 60% of respondents say the problem is a lack of training. 30% say the canopies are the problem and the remainder are flamers.

At least I've come up with an idea (however flawed that idea may be) to address the training problem.

I expect those of you still in the sport to either suggest something different or refine my idea.

If you can't do this well, you have truly lost control of your sport.

Wow, you know how to ruin threads about canopies with your trolling, don't you?

Hey Aggie Dave, This is a thread I started. If you think I'm trolling don't respond. I note you've responded several times however!


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Dec 1, 2011, 11:04 PM
Post #148 of 463 (995 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In this thread about 60% of respondents say the problem is a lack of training. 30% say the canopies are the problem and the remainder are flamers.
Two friends of mine go in on landings in the last year , both are not only expert skydivers but respected instructors with many thousands of jumps. Both impressively current and well within their skill range on the canopy they were flying.

It's not the fault of the canopy, or the fault of training. Someone pulled a pillar too close and they died. What did you expect to happen? that's what you get when you turn too low.
These guys were the EXPERTLY trained F16 pilots that some ancient poundmeintheass Unsureround jumper made a metaphor about earlier.Crazy
In reply to:
At least I've come up with an idea (however flawed that idea may be) to address the training problem.

I expect those of you still in the sport to either suggest something different or refine my idea.

If you can't do this well, you have truly lost control of your sport.
I do not deny there is a training issue overall, and that newer pilots need to be given 100x the attention they normally get in the way of canopy flying instruction. I am seeing it every time I go to my local drop zone, more jumps with a canopy coach. and tons of canopy course posters. I think it is a great start.

The only loss of control I see is -YOUR- loss of reality. Skydiving changed old man, for better or worse it changed and left your giant slow parachutes behind. This happens in every action sport out there. Someone finds a way to make it safer, faster, stronger, longer, and more fun. Though not always in that order.
It seems the people that can make it better are trying. It's getting better every day. New requirements at dropzones and more BS in the BSR.

The people that can make the difference are out there making the difference. The first person to notice the change is the one too far removed from it to have any part in making the change BETTER.


tmccann  (A 61009)

Dec 2, 2011, 9:42 AM
Post #149 of 463 (968 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
>If the manufacturers won't do this then their canopies don't get a TSO and NOBODY jumps them.

Main canopies don't need TSO's.

Well maybe they SHOULD have a TSO given their potential to kill jumpers.

If it's all too hard just accept the carnage and what's coming down the road.

In this thread about 60% of respondents say the problem is a lack of training. 30% say the canopies are the problem and the remainder are flamers.

At least I've come up with an idea (however flawed that idea may be) to address the training problem.

I expect those of you still in the sport to either suggest something different or refine my idea.

If you can't do this well, you have truly lost control of your sport.

Wow, you know how to ruin threads about canopies with your trolling, don't you?

Hey Aggie Dave, This is a thread I started. If you think I'm trolling don't respond. I note you've responded several times however!

Dude,

You can't un-invent the atom bomb. Modern semi-elliptical and elliptical canopies exist in the sport, people enjoy flying them, and this is extremely likely to continue until someone invents something newer/better to replace them. If you were willing to accept the reality of their existence and high likelihood of their continued use, then you might be part of a constructive discussion, regardless of who started the thread. Rail against them if you will, but you might as well advocate for a constitutional monarchy in China for all the progress you'll make doing so.

I don't think the problem in the training discussion is a lack of ideas. As a newbie in the sport, there are a bewildering number of ideas and opinions where it comes to training and safety in canopy piloting. Most of the ideas I've read seem to involve a lot of work in uniform curriculum design, training, and certification that would require an enormous amount of buy-in from DZOs, S&TAa, and instructors around the US. In addition, it will cost money to students entering the sport to meet more requirements. Personally, I think it would be worth it, but what really matters to get it done is the buy-in of the people who will have to make a large investment of time/money in developing/training/testing these ideas.

Oddly enough, though, I haven't seen much discussion of the canopy piloting cards that the USPA is now requiring for the B license. The new requirement has the look and feel of a tentative trial of a requirement that could easily be expanded, but I imagine it will depend strongly on its reception from S&TAs, who have to sign off on these themselves, in the absence of a canopy coaching rating. I'm far too new to have an opinion, but what do you up-number jumpers think. What does everyone think of the new requirement? Close to the mark, way off?

T


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Dec 2, 2011, 9:58 AM
Post #150 of 463 (960 views)
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Re: [tmccann] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oddly enough, though, I haven't seen much discussion of the canopy piloting cards that the USPA is now requiring for the B license. The new requirement has the look and feel of a tentative trial of a requirement that could easily be expanded, but I imagine it will depend strongly on its reception from S&TAs, who have to sign off on these themselves, in the absence of a canopy coaching rating. I'm far too new to have an opinion, but what do you up-number jumpers think. What does everyone think of the new requirement? Close to the mark, way off?

T

For those that have not seen this...
http://www.uspa.org/...PProficiencyCard.pdf


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