Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Why jump at night?

 

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popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:26 PM
Post #26 of 313 (877 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The dividing line should be between things that any skydiver can experience at some time in the normal course of events, versus specialized things that would only happen if you chose to make it happen.
In reply to:
Such as....wait for it......night jumps.

In reply to:
Sunset loads can become night jumps,

If you're not smart enough to land on the plane after civil sunset

In reply to:
water landings can happen from bad spots,
So why did they eliminate the requirement for water landings?.

In reply to:
On the other hand, no one accidentally ends up in a wingsuit or at 20,000 feet night jump, unless they planned for that to happen in advance,
FIFY. Stepping off in the dark is no accident...it's just not very bright. How about we teach common sense instead....that would go a lot farther than two night jumps.


In reply to:
so there are different paths to take to become versed in those subjects.
And rightfully so. The question is what skills are needed skills and what skills are optional skills.


JohnRich  (D License)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:27 PM
Post #27 of 313 (876 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You say that like having a D license means you are an "expert".
Good joke, John!

No joke. Per the USPA, the official governing body in this country, that makes you an "expert". And someone with 500 jumps and a D-license, does indeed know a lot about skydiving. But that certainly doesn't mean they know everything, or that there aren't plenty of other people who know more. It just means that they're a step above all the newer guys in experience and qualifications.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:32 PM
Post #28 of 313 (872 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring
>a night jump for a D license?

Because traditionally many DZ's "push the limits" of daylight. This results in jumpers jumping in near-darkness with no training for it; this can result in problems.

Again, USPA's reasoning.
To paraphrase:
"We know you're going to be stupid and flaunt all sensibilities and violate rules and regulations so let's require you to do it...hopefully before you flaunt and violate."

And then they chose to ignore the possibility of inadvertent water landings. Go figure.
"OK. You jump in a desert miles away form any water. Promise me you will never go near any water and we'll eliminate the water jump requirement."


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:35 PM
Post #29 of 313 (867 views)
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Re: [ghost47] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Because traditionally many DZ's "push the limits" of daylight. This results in jumpers jumping in near-darkness with no training for it; this can result in problems.
I don't understand this line of reasoning. People with 26 jumps and an A license are allowed on those sunset loads. So it seems to me that either:

(a) non-D licensed people shouldn't be allowed on sunset loads;

(b) night jumps should be required for A licenses; or

(c) night jumps should not be required for D licenses.

Further, while water landings CAN happen due to bad spots or simply airplane emergencies, night jumps are easily avoided by not getting on the plane later than, say, an hour before sunset.

You old farts....

Here's Ghost47 who lists 461 jumps and an A license and he totally gets it. Oh, the irony. Shame on you guys.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:35 PM
Post #30 of 313 (866 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

One simplistic answer to the question is because it has been that way for something like 50 years.

Making one night jump (of at least 20 seconds delay) was already in the Parachute Club of America D license rules by 1962. You also had to be able to do things like one left and one right 360 turn within 6 seconds.

While the sport advanced and the maneuvering requirements changed, a night jump remained distinctive and novel ... so seems to have been left in as part of the rite of passage.

(But, things can always change if there's enough desire to overhaul the system. In Canada for example, that night jump requirement for the D disappeared by the early 2000's. The new system, though far from perfect, gives one more choice to demonstrate real skill in one discipline of one's choice.)

Edit:
So I figure that the night jump rule came first, and only much later did people try to justify it with ideas like, "um, because the sunset load might take off late."


(This post was edited by pchapman on Nov 21, 2011, 3:38 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:38 PM
Post #31 of 313 (864 views)
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Re: [firemedic] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We had a discussion on this some time back. I think it was in the Training forum. I take the position that Night Jumps should only be required for those who,
1. Want to do them and
2. For those who wish to do night demos whether they are Pro Rated or not.
Bingo! Just as simple as that. Some old die-hards just can't let go.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:42 PM
Post #32 of 313 (862 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reply. I've been talking to myself for quite a while now....I'm getting bored.
LaughLaughLaugh


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Nov 21, 2011, 3:59 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:46 PM
Post #33 of 313 (858 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK. So we are going to make you get out of that 4-cyl mini-car and put you into a Ferrari and turn you loose in LA. Good Luck!

Wait! I don't want to do that!

Sorry, son. It's a requirement.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:48 PM
Post #34 of 313 (853 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And then they chose to ignore the possibility of inadvertent water landings. Go figure.
"OK. You jump in a desert miles away form any water. Promise me you will never go near any water and we'll eliminate the water jump requirement."

but there is a contingency for that. It's called a waiver. Same waiver exists for those that want a D license. Same waiver applies for anything that goes beyond the norm.

Tell me this:
What is the ratio of incidents are related to late sunset exits that got too dark for sensible exit vs water landings where the water was within 1K of the DZ? (I'm a fan of training water entries, BTW)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:56 PM
Post #35 of 313 (845 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You say that like having a D license means you are an "expert".
Good joke, John!

No joke. Per the USPA, the official governing body in this country, that makes you an "expert".

OK. I haven;t seen anywhere in the USPA rules, regulation, recommendations, guidelines, literature or anywhere else where D = Expert.
Please point it out and let me know if I'm stupid in this or not. If I am, I'll take up the D=Expert torch.

However, IMO, if you want to be called "Expert", then you need to know, and have experience in, a lot more than the current D-license requirements.


In reply to:
And someone with 500 jumps and a D-license, does indeed know a lot about skydiving. But that certainly doesn't mean they know everything, or that there aren't plenty of other people who know more. It just means that they're a step above all the newer guys in experience and qualifications.
Agreed, sort of....if you don't count the experience level and qualifications of so many of the lesser license guys. I wouldn't want to insult them like that, though.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:56 PM
Post #36 of 313 (842 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't buy the "its not fair to the guys who had to do it already" argument. When I started jumping a D license was 200 jumps, now its 500 - how is that fair?
Having said that, whats the big damn deal? Do your night jumps if you want a D! They are a hell of a lot of fun. I only have 1 at the moment but I fully intend on doing them any time our DZ has them because they are just that fun! The biggest drawback I can see to it being a requirement is that they are not offered enough at some DZs.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:57 PM
Post #37 of 313 (837 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So I figure that the night jump rule came first, and only much later did people try to justify it with ideas like, "um, because the sunset load might take off late."
And you would be correct.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 4:15 PM
Post #38 of 313 (821 views)
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Re: [DSE] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but there is a contingency for that. It's called a waiver. Same waiver exists for those that want a D license. Same waiver applies for anything that goes beyond the norm.
Yep. I'm asking because I'm not sure enough at this time to stand and I'm being too lazy to look it up right now....

Can you get ratings with a waiver on your license?

In reply to:
Tell me this:
What is the ratio of incidents are related to late sunset exits that got too dark for sensible exit vs water landings where the water was within 1K of the DZ? (I'm a fan of training water entries, BTW)
Very high as you are aware. Now I'll ask in return..

How many of those night-jump incidents involved jumpers that didn't have night jump training?
Student-A-B-C license people.

How many simply involved thoughtless exiting or misguided reasoning exits?
Looks good to me! Let's go for it!

Me? Hell yes for night jumps! And intentional water jumps! Good fun and, with proper training and adherence to that training, good skill development.

My argument is simply twofold:
1. why make one specialty jump a requirement and not the other when, in fact, both are optional events.
2. why make any specialty jump a requirement.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 4:19 PM
Post #39 of 313 (816 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't buy the "its not fair to the guys who had to do it already" argument. When I started jumping a D license was 200 jumps, now its 500 - how is that fair?
Having said that, whats the big damn deal? Do your night jumps if you want a D!
All well and good. How about a "waht if"?
What if a requirement was to do a <insert any specialty jump here> jump? Would you agree to that?


ghost47  (A License)

Nov 21, 2011, 4:24 PM
Post #40 of 313 (812 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>> People with 26 jumps and an A license are allowed on those sunset loads.

> Depends. One of the first DZ's I was at kept the 'sunset' loads to tandems and the more experienced people at the DZ.

Did this DZ limit sunset loads to D-licensed people (i.e. those who had already done two night jumps)?

In reply to:
>> Further, while water landings CAN happen due to bad spots or simply airplane emergencies, night jumps are easily avoided by not getting on the plane later than, say, an hour before sunset.

> Yes, you can. And you can avoid needing to learn very accurate landings (and water landings) by always checking your spot and knowing the winds (and by refusing to jump when you can't do those things.)

> People don't.

First, this ignores airplane emergencies. So you CAN'T always avoid accuracy and water landings (assuming there is actually water nearby) by checking the spot and knowing the winds.

Second, coming back to the original point, I still don't see how this is related to the D-license requirement. It seems that the argument is: you need to do night jumps for a D-license because you might be in a night jump unexpectedly when you go on sunset loads.

But the only way that this argument makes sense is if a D-license was required to get on a sunset load. Regardless of the practice of your first DZ, I think you will agree that this is not the case.

There could be other reasons for why night jumps make sense for D licenses. That you might unexpectedly be involved in a night jump, however, does not seem to be one of them.


Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 21, 2011, 4:25 PM
Post #41 of 313 (810 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pops you may be the one old fart that gets it! Just because something has been done before is not a reason for continuing to do it.
Sure, night jumps are fun but should they be required? Ive seen way more effort put into getting this archaic requirement completed than typically goes into learning canopy control, aircraft emergencies, exit order separation, downwind landings, spotting, or any of a dozen other actual useful skills.
Are you guys that are defending this practice really advocating that just because someone has exited an aircraft at night that makes them more of an expert? I cant think of anything in this sport that you do twice and somehow, magically become proficient at it. Some jumpers have no desire or need to jump at night. Fun jumps and demo jumps are the only time this is ever done outside of meeting the license requirement. Its simply not a necessary skill for any of our disciplines.


(This post was edited by Deisel on Nov 21, 2011, 4:26 PM)


drewcarp

Nov 21, 2011, 4:26 PM
Post #42 of 313 (808 views)
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Re: [firemedic] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

We had a discussion on this some time back. I think it was in the Training forum. I take the position that Night Jumps should only be required for those who, 1. Want to do them and 2. For those who wish to do night demos whether they are Pro Rated or not. Reason being that a D license is required for a competition and a tandem instructor rating. Night tandems are prohibited and competition does not take place at night. My feeling is why make someone prove they can survive 2 night landings uninjured when that is the only time they are going to do so. IMHO It adds no skill to doing tandems or competing.
Nothing in the regs says you can't injure yourself! Tongue


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 21, 2011, 4:34 PM
Post #43 of 313 (801 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You say that like having a D license means you are an "expert".
Good joke, John!

No joke. Per the USPA, the official governing body in this country, that makes you an "expert".

OK. I haven;t seen anywhere in the USPA rules, regulation, recommendations, guidelines, literature or anywhere else where D = Expert.
Please point it out and let me know if I'm stupid in this or not. If I am, I'll take up the D=Expert torch.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the D-license (when it was 200 jumps) referred to as an "Expert License?"

Read part 105. Wording is specific to "Master" which is also equivalent of "expert."

Searching the web, there are many references to "Master" post 1980, and "Expert" pre-1980.
Additionally...


Gotta match? or do you need my lighter? Tongue


If you don't want to be a TI or PRO, there is no need to have a D. So why bitch about it? C License holders can do everything a D license holder can do except be a TI or be a PRO. So what if they can't hold that highest rating? If you don't wanna earn it, then don't cry around about it.
I disagree with the D license being required for jumpwings, FWIW. Number of jumps is not relevant to skillset.

If nothing else, it gives people something to argue about on wet rainiy nights. It ain't a perfect world, and USPA will always have something for folks to bitch about (pokes self in eye).


Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 21, 2011, 4:45 PM
Post #44 of 313 (794 views)
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Re: [DSE] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE Really?!?! You agree with it for a D but not the stuff you like to do? Cmon man!
What about jumping at night makes you a better TM? For a PRO rating I absolutely agree you have to do it at night. But tandems are strictly prohibited at night. Makes no sense to me.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Nov 21, 2011, 4:46 PM
Post #45 of 313 (793 views)
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Re: Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Something I thought of reading this ...

Someone mentioned that night jumps are fun (they are; I only have 9 though). Someone else mentioned that maybe water jumps should be required.

I know I have never seen water jumps advertised outside of the Belize boogie.

If night jumps weren't required ... how hard would it be to do night jumps for fun? I know some DZs do them periodically, but around here they only happen once or twice per year. If people weren't required to do them, how hard would it be to fill a load?


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Nov 21, 2011, 5:43 PM
Post #46 of 313 (764 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that I'm in my 40's and my depth perception has taken a nosedive, there's no way I would attempt the D license at this age. I'm glad I got it while I was in my 30's (and when I only needed 200 jumps! Wink). I think old farts should be exempt from having to do it. We need some advantages other than the AARP discount. Tongue


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Nov 21, 2011, 5:47 PM
Post #47 of 313 (760 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes Pops, I would. Assuming I wanted that license type, if USPA required me to do a CRW jump, or a raft dive, or a Mr. Bill or whatever silly specialty jump then I Would do it as a condition of earning the license.
Personally I think its really stupid to require night jumps for the D license - I also think they are a lot of fun and I dont see what the big deal is to do two of them to get the license.
I personallt think the majority of jumpers would be better served doing something other than night jumps for a D license requirement - CRW for example arguably teaches a much more valuable skillset. BUT USPA, for whatever reason, requires 2 night jumps. Nothing says everyone must get a D license...


david3  (D 21297)

Nov 21, 2011, 5:58 PM
Post #48 of 313 (750 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I personallt think the majority of jumpers would be better served doing something other than night jumps for a D license requirement - CRW for example arguably teaches a much more valuable skillset. BUT USPA, for whatever reason, requires 2 night jumps. Nothing says everyone must get a D license...
So lets raise the bar and add more requirements not remove requirements.


Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 21, 2011, 6:01 PM
Post #49 of 313 (747 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, my friend if that is the requirement then we do what is asked of us. But please dont ever forget that WE are the USPA. The rules are put in place by the USPA to serve OUR needs and interests as a group. We elect the BOD to set the standards and enforce the rules. So WE decide what the requirements for licenses are and the decision to require night jumps was made a very long time ago. Over time, Ive come to question quite a bit of the rationale that is currently in place. Some of it is obviously there because of outdated thinking that has just never been reconsidered. Im simply asking is this one of those issues whose time has come to go away.


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 21, 2011, 6:09 PM
Post #50 of 313 (739 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Clouds can unexpectedly form causing much darker conditions than normal

IMO if the clouds are forming that fast, I'm sitting my ass on the ground, something is a brewin' and I don't wanna be in the air for it!

Back to the topic at hand, I do think the night jumps for the D is more for the old timers sticking it to the youngins cause they've had to do it when they got their D 20 years ago.


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