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HP From an Old Fart

 

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Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 24, 2011, 12:36 PM
Post #301 of 463 (1618 views)
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Elsinore Incident [In reply to] Can't Post

Posted here at the suggestion of KRIP


Hi Bill

Why are you asking me for a solution? There's obviously a failure to comminicate.

Now you all have the internet, and the USA is no longer the center of the universe or the skydiving world. The low turn problem is a international problem.Shocked

Use your connections and put together a think tank of the best swoopers and jumpers world wide and see if the international world of skydiving can come up with a solution to this "unsolvable problem. "

Remember Tonto the mod from South Africa We were all shocked when he died. some of the young ones may not have heard the joke that was going around in the 80's.

"Who says jumpers are stupid we invented a whole new way to kill ourselves" Hook turnsUnsure

I've got a T shirt from Z-hills called Hook Turn Horrors. that I got before you even started jumping.Frown And 30 yrs later the blood bath continues.Crazy

The swooping pro's like Aggie Dave got their act together but for some reason the information isn't filtering down to the wanna be's.Frown

Some of them have to learn the stupid way. If their lucky they won't kill themselves and they will be able to find a desK job. If their brain still works.

The subject of this thread lucked out and busted his ass at Snore and they were able to keep him alive until the chopper got there.

Read the first couple of posts in this thread Oh well just another low turnUnsure to bad nothing new to learn here lets move on.

I'm ashamed to admit that back in the 80's I sat at a picnic table at a DZ in Fl and ate my lunch about 50 yds watching a dude get CPR. But the CPR was taking to long when the ambulance finally got there the DZ staff stopped the CPR and the Ambulance weren't in a hurry to load the guy up and left the DZ without light and sirens.

I just witnessed a human being that I had been jumping with for a week die. He had a family.Frown Of course we got on the next load.

Now people jump with AAD's, buzz box's, and altii's are opening at 4-5K because they have a slow opening canopy or prefer to have the extra time just in case they have a mal.Crazy

The people that feel the need for speed and want to swoop like the pro's some of them don't have that safety margin.

And DZ.com isn't hearing about all the injuries just the DOA's and the DZ's that that report the injuries.

Read the link in the first post of this threadShocked Thats reality and the best the international skydiving community can do is brians book and some mentoring. Frown

Well it's not working. If the industry wants to hide behind their waiver and brians book and ignor the facts thats fucked up.

Have a merry Xmas with your friends and family the wife of the subject of this thread is going to spend Xmas in hell.

IMO Thats a very sad thing.

KRIP

http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/timsagehorn/journal/7


Trae  (Student)

Dec 24, 2011, 3:54 PM
Post #302 of 463 (1599 views)
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Re: [craigbey] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to "My questions to you still stand.

It sounds like your DZ's have their shit together. What are they doing differently besides imparting 'old school wisdom'? If they can be a model for others, why not share their secret to success"
......................................

No big secret , they're just well led by people that know what they're doing.
The dominant feature of these DZ's is a very clear and definite chain of command.
Leader out front .
A couple of them , learnt the hard way, with a trail of fatalities and injuries. REAL fatalities and REAL incidents that shook em up a bit and knocked some sense into them as well.

as far as their specific canopy requirements. They apply normal licence requirements ,seems to work OK if STRICTLY adhered to . No short cuts. These requirements were originally designed with slowish canopies in mind but still apply to the type of canopies newbies should be flying.
Proven consistent accuracy on a canopy is still a fair indication of basic canopy control skills . People can try to cheat a bit but it shows up when they can't land properly.
Under the watchful eye of the CI , instructor and the rest of the DZ, all is revealed.Laugh

If the time honored respect for measured progression is instilled in a student then they seem to have less trouble working their way steadily through the steps required to make them a proficient canopy pilot.
Some DZ's just seem to handle this more naturally without undue haste . Feels safer there.


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 27, 2011, 8:16 PM
Post #303 of 463 (1552 views)
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Two!! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4246637;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Dec 28, 2011, 1:48 AM
Post #304 of 463 (1524 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Two!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4246637;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Dude - cut it out!

Whether they listen to you or not, they're still people.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Dec 28, 2011, 10:21 AM
Post #305 of 463 (1494 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Two!! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Clicky.

You forgot to say, "I told you so".


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 28, 2011, 6:21 PM
Post #306 of 463 (1460 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Two!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
they're still people.

Not any more.

Exactly his point.....


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 28, 2011, 6:22 PM
Post #307 of 463 (1459 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Enough with the dead skydiver jokes. (Not just you.)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 28, 2011, 6:29 PM
Post #308 of 463 (1457 views)
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Re: [billvon] Two!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote:
Enough with the dead skydiver jokes. (Not just you.)

That was NOT a joke. Nothing funny about smashed bodies on the DZ. I've seen my share. I've heard about many more than my share.

Its reality.

Brutal reality.....




Marisan  (E 123)

Feb 20, 2012, 8:56 PM
Post #310 of 463 (1305 views)
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Sadly 3 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4275609;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 21, 2012, 5:08 AM
Post #311 of 463 (1269 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Sadly 3 [In reply to] Can't Post

He was an experienced swooper, doing a dedicated swoop. He did, in fact, understand the risk and take it. He risked no one else.

We do the same thing every time we jump; different risks, but then I don't BASE either, or race cars, either on or off the track. A swoop competition is kind of like on-track racing; much more dangerous than I choose, but a choice I'd like to continue to be available for those who do choose it.

Swooping at the end of a crowded skydive is kind of like street racing sometimes, particularly when the swooper expects to get the front-and-center position, and everyone else gets to land out.

Wendy P.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Feb 21, 2012, 10:33 AM
Post #312 of 463 (1233 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Sadly 3 [In reply to] Can't Post

The person you replied to does not care about the specifics. He is merely keeping score.

(This post was edited by craigbey on Feb 21, 2012, 10:33 AM)


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Feb 21, 2012, 12:36 PM
Post #313 of 463 (1217 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Any Canopy that, when it opens in line twists, spins up to a speed that
>makes cutaways problematic is by definition lethal. (etc)

Agreed.

To condense all your arguments - any canopy that can kill you is, by definition, lethal. And all canopies can kill you if you're dumb enough.

Thank you Bill. I am late to the party.


Marisan  (E 123)

Feb 21, 2012, 1:34 PM
Post #314 of 463 (1200 views)
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Re: [dharma1976] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Any Canopy that, when it opens in line twists, spins up to a speed that
>makes cutaways problematic is by definition lethal. (etc)

Agreed.

To condense all your arguments - any canopy that can kill you is, by definition, lethal. And all canopies can kill you if you're dumb enough.

Thank you Bill. I am late to the party.

So, in answer to that, was the latest fatality "Dumb Enough" or did he push the limits just a fraction too far?

By the way, you can't push limits, you can only find them.


(This post was edited by Marisan on Feb 21, 2012, 1:42 PM)


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Feb 21, 2012, 2:34 PM
Post #315 of 463 (1185 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
>Any Canopy that, when it opens in line twists, spins up to a speed that
>makes cutaways problematic is by definition lethal. (etc)

Agreed.

To condense all your arguments - any canopy that can kill you is, by definition, lethal. And all canopies can kill you if you're dumb enough.

Thank you Bill. I am late to the party.

So, in answer to that, was the latest fatality "Dumb Enough" or did he push the limits just a fraction too far?

By the way, you can't push limits, you can only find them.

Bold Pilot, a shame none the less.

I refuse to argue with myopic people who ignore valid points from respected professionals while looking down their own truly uninformed opinionated noses.

D


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 21, 2012, 4:31 PM
Post #316 of 463 (1165 views)
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Re: [dharma1976] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
>Any Canopy that, when it opens in line twists, spins up to a speed that
>makes cutaways problematic is by definition lethal. (etc)

Agreed.

To condense all your arguments - any canopy that can kill you is, by definition, lethal. And all canopies can kill you if you're dumb enough.

Thank you Bill. I am late to the party.

So, in answer to that, was the latest fatality "Dumb Enough" or did he push the limits just a fraction too far?

By the way, you can't push limits, you can only find them.

Bold Pilot, a shame none the less.

I refuse to argue with myopic people who ignore valid points from respected professionals while looking down their own truly uninformed opinionated noses.

First , let's not argue. Let's discuss.

Well, let's not talk about "myopic" and "ignore valid points". Especially when you missed Marisan's point.

I'm looking at Bill's statement about "dumb enough" and it raises the question: "Regardless of canopy size, are all those deaths caused by being "dumb enough"?

I think not.


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Feb 22, 2012, 7:37 AM
Post #317 of 463 (1125 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

I responded to his question. That's what the two word statement "Bold Pilot" was.

I agree that there is a problem. A lot of the people who respond here work their butts off to try to keep people off canopies they aren't ready for. Trick is, its a free country, stupid is as stupid does. If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough. etc etc. But I refuse to argue with someone who DOESN'T OFFER ANY REAL SOLUTIONS. And then chides and baits people who do more jumps in 2 years than he has in 30 years in the sport. On top of it he MOCKS THE DEAD, disrespectful. For shame.

Dave


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 22, 2012, 12:48 PM
Post #318 of 463 (1092 views)
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Re: [dharma1976] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Bold Pilot, a shame none the less.

I refuse to argue with myopic people who ignore valid points from respected professionals while looking down their own truly uninformed opinionated noses.

D

Ok. but here's something to consider...
Deep down, we all know that the point Marisan is making is very scary and contrary to what we want to believe about our sport. If one continues to push the limits, one will die or splatter oneselve all over the ground. Unsure

So, are you refusing to argue with myopic people or are you refusing to admit this could be the reality in which case you/us need to slow down and reconsider safety? I guess my point is, are we looking at the big picture?

Smile


drjump  (D 2785)

Feb 22, 2012, 1:32 PM
Post #319 of 463 (1069 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

That is correct Dave. I did 'hook' turn a PC way too low to do a 180 into the wind, severe case of rectalouculitis. But, the PC did not kill me (nor did I kill myself). Round canopies were much more forgiving-to stupidness-than squares. I goofed and got 12 weeks of wearing a plaster jump boot. I learned my lesson.


drjump  (D 2785)

Feb 22, 2012, 1:48 PM
Post #320 of 463 (1066 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

As a matter of fact I did win! But, I lost, 4 months of great jumping weather.


virgin-burner

Feb 22, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #321 of 463 (1042 views)
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Re: [drjump] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a matter of fact I did win! But, I lost, 4 months of great jumping weather.

dude, now you had me digging hard to find what you're referring to!

you're the guy that dave mentioned that wanted his "god damn beer"! Cool

i say it again, good man! Smile


Marisan  (E 123)

Feb 22, 2012, 9:38 PM
Post #322 of 463 (1011 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

When will you guys understand that you are bouncing up against limits.

Definition of limits: The point, edge, or line beyond which something cannot or may not proceed.
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/limit)

Limits change with skill etc but there are limits that cannot be passed no matter how skillful you are (Or think you are)

Jeb was lucky. He brushed the limit. Sean hit it!

Limits mate jumpers with physics and physics always wins!


virgin-burner

Feb 23, 2012, 3:10 AM
Post #323 of 463 (990 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

one of my instructors always used to say: "physics is an asshole!".


Marisan  (E 123)

Feb 26, 2012, 7:52 PM
Post #324 of 463 (909 views)
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Sadly "4"! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4279115;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unreadUnsure


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 26, 2012, 8:18 PM
Post #325 of 463 (899 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Sadly "4"! [In reply to] Can't Post



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