Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
2 out roof landing

 


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 9, 2011, 4:34 AM
Post #1 of 147 (5424 views)
Shortcut
2 out roof landing Can't Post

Anyone want to critique this?


(This post was edited by Squeak on Nov 9, 2011, 4:35 AM)


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 4:43 AM
Post #2 of 147 (5372 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Pull higher


dks13827  (C 9293)

Nov 9, 2011, 5:09 AM
Post #3 of 147 (5349 views)
Shortcut
2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Once the 2 out occurred he had few good landing areas. I would want to chop the main in that situation. He landed on top of a 2 story building, if he were dragged off due to any wind, very bad.


piisfish

Nov 9, 2011, 5:22 AM
Post #4 of 147 (5335 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SRI85] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pull higher
yup, pull higher, ugly pants, lucky the reserve clipped the rooftop or he would have been good for a 8m freefall from the roof.

and stop blaming the vigil for the lowpull. It worked as advertised.


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 5:34 AM
Post #5 of 147 (5322 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like fun times at the Ranch.Sly

1st: Stop trying to impress the chick with your "madskills backflying." Instead break off and track like the rest of the world.

2nd: Pull on time, don't blame the Vigil for you pulling low.

3rd: When you have two out, don't worry about your slider and how much noise it's making.

4th: The grass was a much better idea than the roof.

5th: PlayitAgain Sports has good deals on used gold clubs and bowling balls.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Nov 9, 2011, 5:38 AM)


stratostar  (Student)

Nov 9, 2011, 5:42 AM
Post #6 of 147 (5308 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't forget when your down and dirty, there is no reason to wave off.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 9, 2011, 6:01 AM
Post #7 of 147 (5280 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Classic case of a newbie with a camera, and the problems it can create. In this case, the problem was the desire to flm the opening of the other jumper.

Meanwhile, one look at the leg of the 'camera guys' jumpsuit reveals a baggy freefly type suit. One look at the girl reveals a skin tight jumpsuit. The end result is a drasitic difference in jumper size/weight, and it show when he tries to transition to his back and drops out several hundred feet. His lack of ability to remain stable aside, there was nothing to film as he was just too far away. A jumper who was not trying to 'get the shot' or 'impress the girl' might have realized ahead of time, but that was not this jumper.

Furthermore, when the other jumper on the two-way opens, there is no need to wave off or check your altimeter. The freefall portion of the jump is clearly over, move on and open a parachute as soon as safely possible.

As far as the rest of it goes, collapsing the slider and landing on the house were additional mistakes. In the end, this turned out fairly well and the jumper won't soon forget the cost of the repack and Vigil fire, and the embarrasment of landing on a house with an open front and back yard. Maybe he'll learn his lesson.

That said, a word to the fellas - the best way to impress a girl on the DZ is to do everything you can to ensure her safety, your own safety, and the general success of the jump. There's nothing wrong with an easy two-way with one dock where you share a smile or a kiss in freefall, and then follow it up with a safe, on time break-off, safe on-time openings, and safe on-target landings.

There is nothing you're going to do that is going to impress a girl to the degree that her pants will drop. Unless you're planning to land a wingsuit or track back in to the plane, nothing you do is going to have the desired effect. The jump in question would have been far more memorable (for the right reasons) if it was followed by a conventional breakoff, opening and landing. If you want to go the extra mile, how about land first and film her landing? That's a safe alternative, and of use in debriefing the jump.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 9, 2011, 6:19 AM
Post #8 of 147 (5254 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SRI85] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

This.


Dump the hideous suit.
Hopefully she was smart enough to not give it up to this guy.
She needs a second glove.


ShotterMG  (Student)

Nov 9, 2011, 6:50 AM
Post #9 of 147 (5233 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy shit man. I would think that last look at the ground wouldn't require an altimeter check before pulling haha Ridiculous. Great video. This is a man trying to kill himself. Don't stand under him.


Skyper

Nov 9, 2011, 6:51 AM
Post #10 of 147 (5230 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

sound in the video is as awful as the colors of his suit but not even close to awfullness of his flying abilities and safety awareness.

you get this when you start thinking with your dick instead of using your brains.


(This post was edited by Skyper on Nov 9, 2011, 6:52 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 9, 2011, 6:53 AM
Post #11 of 147 (5226 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, so it's a gabled roof on a 2 story home. That's a bit sportier than a flat industrial roof!

TWO OUT:

The vid is a good example of how one's options are limited if one isn't at a DZ surrounded by fields.

He has the dilemma of how much to maneuver with a two out -- something he had to do if he wanted to actively go for the couple open back yards on the near side of the street rather than just taking whatever came up when flying straight.

Or there were the yards open to the right of the house he went for. I thought he could still have made a 90 right when crossing the street to go for those yards at the last minute -- but I see there's a flagpole that he'd have to miss.

Spotting the obstacles is a fun game here! For a moment it looks like he's going for the gap between the house and trees along the driveway -- but there one can see power lines crossing to the house. Houses have electricity, and unless you are in a modern subdivision with buried utilities, there are going to be power lines somewhere...

It's a good video to save to show newer jumpers to ask, "What would you do if you were in this situation...".

He's very lucky that last moment turn he made didn't put him legs first straight into the chimney.

PULL ALTITUDE:

Even after getting out of backfly, he keeps looking up at his friend, and finally has a good look at his alti, at 16 sec. While at first glance the alti looks like it is around 2k, if one takes an older Alti III (red to 2.5k, yellow to 3k) and puts it at the same angle with parallax, I think the needle is showing more like 1.6k - 1.7k. Other evidence of that sort of basement altitude is that when the alti flashed by in view at 10 sec, it looked like about 2.5k.

So no wonder that the alti is showing something in the 800 ft range (plus or minus a fair bit since it is fuzzy) when the reserve is starting to deploy above him. (And the alti looked more or less correctly zeroed, from views on the ground.) Maybe that's a bit higher than he expected the Vigil to fire, but we all know about the error that one can get from the burble going from belly to standup.

All this is just a complex way of saying he was not aware of his altitude and pulled low.

It is funny that he automatically stows the main slider, but at least he catches himself from popping the brakes.


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:15 AM
Post #12 of 147 (5172 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

The video has got wrong music. He should have used this song.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:18 AM
Post #13 of 147 (5167 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Target fixation affects performance...I mean on the girl not the roof.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:19 AM
Post #14 of 147 (5166 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This.


Dump the hideous suit.
Hopefully she was smart enough to not give it up to this guy.
She needs a second glove.

Is there any reason you would jump with only 1 glove? I hadn't noticed it at first and went back because of your comment. The glove is on her deployment hand, so that was not a consideration.

Thanks for the video Squeak. Interesting and educational. The powerlines were scary.


piisfish

Nov 9, 2011, 7:30 AM
Post #15 of 147 (5155 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that despite all the mistakes, the jumper does not deserve insults (specially on the youtube). Unimpressed

can't we stay a bit civilized ?


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:38 AM
Post #16 of 147 (5136 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dks13827] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would want to chop the main in that situation

What is the general consensus on this advice? I've been train not to do this and would be generally worried about a canopy wrap if I chopped the leading canopy.

I think this would make a bad situation worse.


jsreznor  (C 38889)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:43 AM
Post #17 of 147 (5127 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think that despite all the mistakes, the jumper does not deserve insults (specially on the youtube). Unimpressed

can't we stay a bit civilized ?

WRONG!

The title of the video is clearly blaming the Vigil fire for the whole thing. It's passing the buck and B.S.

Also, an enemy deserves no mercy. What is the problem Mr. Lawrence?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:45 AM
Post #18 of 147 (5120 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dks13827] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would want to chop the main in that situation.

The main was in front of the reserve.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:46 AM
Post #19 of 147 (5113 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think that despite all the mistakes, the jumper does not deserve insults (specially on the youtube). Unimpressed

can't we stay a bit civilized ?

I think he set himself up for the less than Rosie reception with his 'Fuck Vigil" comment...he made a few mistakes, buying the AAD wasn't one of them.

Ya gotta have a thick skin if you're gonna do stupid stuff, even more-so if you're going to blame your equipment!


piisfish

Nov 9, 2011, 7:46 AM
Post #20 of 147 (5112 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jsreznor] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

well then have the video pulled down due to insulting/misleading title.
We all agree that the responsability is the jumper's and NOT the Vigil.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:48 AM
Post #21 of 147 (5104 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BIGUN] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would want to chop the main in that situation.

The main was in front of the reserve.
Yup...'stick with and fly the dominant canopy'


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 9, 2011, 8:26 AM
Post #22 of 147 (5062 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

This person copped some serious flack at the DZ from instructors and senior jumpers for a litany of stupid decisions. Blaming the AAD is a clear case of lacking a sense of personal responsibility for those stupid decisions. The suit is a old hand-me-down (should have been put down). I wasn't there so I don't have a whole lot more info.

For any newer jumper watching this video please realize that there were a bunch of mistakes made on this jump. Particularly, take note that the canopies deploying a *long* way above the jumper and the amount of time in free fall should have indicated that pulling *NOW* was a priority. The jumper clearly didn't have altitude awareness which is job #2 (depending on how you look at it) and failed at job #1 as well - pull. Beyond that glancing casually at their alti below hard deck is just plain stupid. That this jumper ended up unhurt is an anomaly in this case given that there are so few places to land on that side of our DZ and the number of poor decisions made.

Here's a link to the USPA's guidelines on two out emergencies: http://www.uspa.org/...177/Default.aspx#914


llloyd  (C License)

Nov 9, 2011, 9:27 AM
Post #23 of 147 (4968 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This person copped some serious flack at the DZ from instructors and senior jumpers for a litany of stupid decisions

I hope THEY got grounded.

@33s they both blindly pass an open parachute and @42s she's still chasing him when he eventually realises he's nearly dead.
That puts her (at best) around the 2k mark and still terminal...

Scary video...although I think the "Fuck Vigil" is a vain attempt at humour, not a blame shift.


jclalor  (B 33202)

Nov 9, 2011, 9:43 AM
Post #24 of 147 (4944 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

He's fucking Santa, where else is he supposes to land?


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 9, 2011, 10:05 AM
Post #25 of 147 (4897 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jclalor] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
He's fucking Santa, where else is he supposes to land?

Is Santa gay?Angelic


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 9, 2011, 10:32 AM
Post #26 of 147 (1670 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

So, a four-way that turned into a two way that blew past both of the other 'unseen' four way participants. Then he takes it past 1200 trying to film a deployment.
Yep...the problem with small cameras is "snag hazard." Crazy
This guy's "flight recorder" could very easily been significantly more hurtful to him or the other jumper. Did she make it back to the DZ OK? Or were there two low-timers that landed off?


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 11:18 AM
Post #27 of 147 (1616 views)
Shortcut
Re: [nigel99] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
He's fucking Santa, where else is he supposes to land?

Is Santa gay?Angelic

No, he's Jolly.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 9, 2011, 11:21 AM
Post #28 of 147 (1614 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Well it IS a festive holiday.
Tongue


dzhuravkov

Nov 9, 2011, 11:22 AM
Post #29 of 147 (1612 views)
Shortcut
Re: 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

wow, i really didnt expect all this attention...

First off, let me apologize for the vigil comment and make it clear, I was never blaming my gear, simply making a half-shitty joke..

Secondly, I was also not trying to impress anyone with this video or low pull.. I was simply enjoying learning to backfly, but yes, at unreasonably low altitude..

The reason i didn't land between trees and house was because of 1, the wire, and 2, i was getting blown to the right quite a bit.. That was also my reason for the last turn, i was afraid I would get blown right into the trees on the right, and I was aiming to reach the back yard..didnt happen...

I did get a lot of shit for this, and yea, well deserved..

Lessons learned: pull higher, be more altitude aware, and get an audible...

The santa music was just to once again to relieve the tension and to have a bit of humor in an otherwise shitty and grave situation..

sorry to anyone i pissed off with this, feel free to scold me some more, but if anyone leaves more creative criticism, it is also very much appreciated.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 9, 2011, 11:26 AM
Post #30 of 147 (1601 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Pull higher. Period.

Don't count on an audible. Be altitude aware.

Glad you're not dead. Don't do that again.


wayneflorida  (D 30566)

Nov 9, 2011, 11:38 AM
Post #31 of 147 (1593 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wow, i really didnt expect all this attention...

First off, let me apologize for the vigil comment and make it clear, I was never blaming my gear, simply making a half-shitty joke..

Secondly, I was also not trying to impress anyone with this video or low pull.. I was simply enjoying learning to backfly, but yes, at unreasonably low altitude..

The reason i didn't land between trees and house was because of 1, the wire, and 2, i was getting blown to the right quite a bit.. That was also my reason for the last turn, i was afraid I would get blown right into the trees on the right, and I was aiming to reach the back yard..didnt happen...

I did get a lot of shit for this, and yea, well deserved..

Lessons learned: pull higher, be more altitude aware, and get an audible...

The santa music was just to once again to relieve the tension and to have a bit of humor in an otherwise shitty and grave situation..

sorry to anyone i pissed off with this, feel free to scold me some more, but if anyone leaves more creative criticism, it is also very much appreciated.

In the video it looks like you flared some. If so how much and why.

glad your ok. very scary.


DaVinciflies

Nov 9, 2011, 11:43 AM
Post #32 of 147 (1588 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wow, i really didnt expect all this attention...

First off, let me apologize for the vigil comment and make it clear, I was never blaming my gear, simply making a half-shitty joke..

Secondly, I was also not trying to impress anyone with this video or low pull.. I was simply enjoying learning to backfly, but yes, at unreasonably low altitude..

The reason i didn't land between trees and house was because of 1, the wire, and 2, i was getting blown to the right quite a bit.. That was also my reason for the last turn, i was afraid I would get blown right into the trees on the right, and I was aiming to reach the back yard..didnt happen...

I did get a lot of shit for this, and yea, well deserved..

Lessons learned: pull higher, be more altitude aware, and get an audible...

The santa music was just to once again to relieve the tension and to have a bit of humor in an otherwise shitty and grave situation..

sorry to anyone i pissed off with this, feel free to scold me some more, but if anyone leaves more creative criticism, it is also very much appreciated.

So, for the record, you are saying that this incident was NOT contributed to by the distraction of the camera.

Would that be correct?


dzhuravkov

Nov 9, 2011, 11:46 AM
Post #33 of 147 (1585 views)
Shortcut
Re: [wayneflorida] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

i did flare at the last second when I realized I wouldnt make it over the top of the house.. My logic was: I didn't want to PLF off the roof.. I didn't want to smash face first into the chimney or the roofing.. I ended up sliding onto the roof.. actually not a hard landing at all... I was afraid if I did anything but stop myself there and then, my canopy would snag on something or deflate as I hit the roof, and I wasn't about to run off a 20 roof structure..


dzhuravkov

Nov 9, 2011, 11:49 AM
Post #34 of 147 (1580 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DaVinciflies] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

the camera did play a role in it of course, but I really didn't appreciate the 'trying to impress the girl' comment.. as many people said, there was nothing impressive about that camera shot, and i was simply enjoying the backflying.. when I did flip over and watch her open, that was simply for my enjoyment..

the bigger distraction was my poor decision to commit to watching the full opening of the other canopy and disregard my own altitude..


chutem  (A 45827)

Nov 9, 2011, 11:58 AM
Post #35 of 147 (1561 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the camera did play a role in it of course, but I really didn't appreciate the 'trying to impress the girl' comment.. as many people said, there was nothing impressive about that camera shot, and i was simply enjoying the backflying.. when I did flip over and watch her open, that was simply for my enjoyment..

the bigger distraction was my poor decision to commit to watching the full opening of the other canopy and disregard my own altitude..

How many jumps do you have? I'm not asking to put you down, I just want to know where this falls in the jump numbers/small camera debates. Will you keep flying the camera for now?

James


dzhuravkov

Nov 9, 2011, 12:17 PM
Post #36 of 147 (1536 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chutem] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

115 jumps.. ive been doing camera for maybe 10 jumps now.. it hasn't been a problem for me because I don't usually have an issue with the 'capture the shot' mentality..

as you can see, i wasn't making any effort to really get a shot.. i was just falling and looking.. got distracted, sure, but I wouldn't put all blame on the camera..

i have two helmets - one with the drift innovation and one without.. and i do switch back and forth between them depending on what i'm doing, but i really never paid much attention to the camera.. it's there for me to just remember and relive the jump, not for me to try and be a camera pro..

i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 12:24 PM
Post #37 of 147 (1523 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the camera did play a role in it of course, but I really didn't appreciate the 'trying to impress the girl' comment.. as many people said, there was nothing impressive about that camera shot, and i was simply enjoying the backflying.. when I did flip over and watch her open, that was simply for my enjoyment..

the bigger distraction was my poor decision to commit to watching the full opening of the other canopy and disregard my own altitude..

My apologies if MY comment was off base, but she's a pretty girl...I WOULD have been distracted! Blush

Kudos on posting the vid, but you may want to edit the heading & turn it into a learning tool, seems you DID learn something...pass that on.

You got really lucky in several ways, understand HOW lucky and build on that, you fucked up some, but also did some things right to not make a bad situation worse.

Situational Awareness is important ALL during the dive, every decision is important...as you well know, making a good one early alleviates the need to make some hairy ones later! Wink

Oh~ Nice pants...just kidding...no really, just kidding Sly


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 9, 2011, 12:29 PM
Post #38 of 147 (1513 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

You really need to have a think about what you're saying and more importantly what you're doing. You were literally seconds away from being dead. You were then lucky not to be seriously injured on landing, if you even made it that far (if, say, your 2 out turned into a downplane).

I know you've heard this and more from Linda and John but the camera bit doesn't seem to have sunk in.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 9, 2011, 12:31 PM
Post #39 of 147 (1505 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wow, i really didnt expect all this attention...

Thanks for posting the video for others to learn from, and then owning up to it all.


Decodiver  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 12:37 PM
Post #40 of 147 (1489 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was simply enjoying learning to backfly, but yes, at unreasonably low altitude..

Lessons learned: pull higher, be more altitude aware, and get an audible...

Break-off is not the time to learn to back fly............

Don't get 1 audible get 2 and finally only fuckheads pull low.........altitude is your friend....you'll realize why the day you cut away a mal................


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 9, 2011, 1:06 PM
Post #41 of 147 (1461 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the camera did play a role in it of course, but I really didn't appreciate the 'trying to impress the girl' comment.. as many people said, there was nothing impressive about that camera shot, and i was simply enjoying the backflying.. when I did flip over and watch her open, that was simply for my enjoyment..

the bigger distraction was my poor decision to commit to watching the full opening of the other canopy and disregard my own altitude..

More creative criticism?
~learn to belly fly before backflying. It's apparent from exit that you're missing some basics.
~lose the camera til you have the recommended jumps and can belly fly reasonably well.
~learn to be visual with your altitude assessment; you can't always trust an altimeter.
~learn how two-outs are to be managed; any AFF instructor should be able to share this information with you.
~You have at least two of the most experienced, best camera flyers at your DZ at your disposal; spend time with them talking about your errors.
~DON'T just go buy an audible; learn to use what you need vs what augments other instruments.

Quote:
the bigger distraction was my poor decision to commit to watching the full opening of the other canopy and disregard my own altitude..
Yes, and filming the opening of the other canopy is directly related to the camera that you obviously should not be using.
Please read the sticky and small format camera incident thread in the Photography forum. You're in there; might as well read your press from someone else at your home DZ.
Luck stepped in to save your ass. Luck might not be with you a second time.
Congrats on not turning the biplane into a downplane.


Skyper

Nov 9, 2011, 2:07 PM
Post #42 of 147 (1389 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you for being so brave to stand up here :)

Please, read the last incident from few months ago about a girl with the around the same number of jumps as you, jumping with a camera, filming a tandem. She ended up pulling low which resulted in an off dz landing... and unfortunately fatal ending.

Leave that camera until you reach 200 formation jumps - do it for your own safety and for the safety of your fellow jumpers...

lol @ Twardo's: pussy fixation


(This post was edited by Skyper on Nov 9, 2011, 2:11 PM)


mchamp  (D 32129)

Nov 9, 2011, 2:29 PM
Post #43 of 147 (1368 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
He's fucking Santa, where else is he supposes to land?

Is Santa gay?Angelic

No, he's Jolly.

LaughLaughLaugh


chutem  (A 45827)

Nov 9, 2011, 2:33 PM
Post #44 of 147 (1362 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
115 jumps.. ive been doing camera for maybe 10 jumps now.. it hasn't been a problem for me because I don't usually have an issue with the 'capture the shot' mentality..

as you can see, i wasn't making any effort to really get a shot.. i was just falling and looking.. got distracted, sure, but I wouldn't put all blame on the camera..

i have two helmets - one with the drift innovation and one without.. and i do switch back and forth between them depending on what i'm doing, but i really never paid much attention to the camera.. it's there for me to just remember and relive the jump, not for me to try and be a camera pro..

i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Did the girl make it back to the DZ or land off also?

James


Dean358  (D 28881)

Nov 9, 2011, 2:49 PM
Post #45 of 147 (1347 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Tnx for posting the video, please do listen to what Linda and John are saying, you REALLY should consider not flying with a camera for the next few hundred jumps (really!) and, FWIW, I found your music selection in the video to be genius.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Nov 9, 2011, 2:53 PM
Post #46 of 147 (1340 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dks13827] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be afraid chopping the main in this case would result in it blowing back and entangling with the reserve.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 9, 2011, 3:04 PM
Post #47 of 147 (1326 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the camera did play a role in it of course, but I really didn't appreciate the 'trying to impress the girl' comment.. as many people said, there was nothing impressive about that camera shot, and i was simply enjoying the backflying.. when I did flip over and watch her open, that was simply for my enjoyment..

the bigger distraction was my poor decision to commit to watching the full opening of the other canopy and disregard my own altitude..
I dont know what you consider "back flying" but you were largely unstable when on your back, given that you cant fly stable in all orientations, what the hell are you doing with a camera on your head?


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 3:17 PM
Post #48 of 147 (1312 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
the camera did play a role in it of course, but I really didn't appreciate the 'trying to impress the girl' comment.. as many people said, there was nothing impressive about that camera shot, and i was simply enjoying the backflying.. when I did flip over and watch her open, that was simply for my enjoyment..

the bigger distraction was my poor decision to commit to watching the full opening of the other canopy and disregard my own altitude..
I dont know what you consider "back flying" but you were largely unstable when on your back, given that you cant fly stable in all orientations, what the hell are you doing with a camera on your head?

The camera was useful in documenting the lack of flying skills, so it served some purpose. When up in the air, not so many people can see it compared to having it posted on youtube. Unimpressed


PiLFy  (A License)

Nov 9, 2011, 4:10 PM
Post #49 of 147 (1270 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Hoe_Lee sh*t... That vid is going to give ME nightmares: chimney_Legs_Pelvis_SPINE... Shocked


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 9, 2011, 5:26 PM
Post #50 of 147 (1227 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dks13827] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Once the 2 out occurred he had few good landing areas. I would want to chop the main in that situation. He landed on top of a 2 story building, if he were dragged off due to any wind, very bad.
DO NOT CHOP THE MAIN IN A BIPLANE! That is a good way to die as it entangles your reserve as it leaves.

He should have released the brakes on the main, flown more normally and done a small left to land next to the house. Some day, sooner or later, learning accuracy landings will pay off.


dzhuravkov

Nov 9, 2011, 6:49 PM
Post #51 of 147 (1535 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chutem] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:04 PM
Post #52 of 147 (1524 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?

DZH, start a new thread on this question, so it does not get lost in the thread here..
It's a good question.


chutem  (A 45827)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:24 PM
Post #53 of 147 (1507 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?

I'm glad to hear she made it back.

I would probably have left the brakes stowed as they seemed to be "playing nice" with each other. I'm not saying this is the correct thing to do, just probably what I would have done.

James


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:51 PM
Post #54 of 147 (1485 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

At 115 jumps camera or not you should still be breaking off and tracking on EVERY jump, not relying on vertical separation.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Nov 9, 2011, 7:51 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:59 PM
Post #55 of 147 (1476 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At 115 jumps camera or not you should still be breaking off and tracking on EVERY jump, not relying on vertical separation

Can't you read? The camera and filming the opening had nothing to do with it, he was enjoying a bit of backflying after a jump and took it too low. The fact that he was wearing a camera and pointing it in the direction of a deploying jumper was a simple coincidence.

Haven't you ever rolled over to backfly at the end of a jump 'just because'? After all, he had a Vigil, what could go wrong?


jrjny  (A License)

Nov 9, 2011, 9:30 PM
Post #56 of 147 (1435 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

That's an amazing video. Def past peak foliage up there now. I'm sure you're going to be very aware now.

Jeff


chopaka  (D 29376)

Nov 9, 2011, 10:38 PM
Post #57 of 147 (1413 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Seriously, lose the camera. You cannot keep jumping with the camera AND be safe. Period. Take your time and listen to all of this advice.

Rudi


LDiCosimo  (B License)

Nov 10, 2011, 1:13 AM
Post #58 of 147 (1373 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was simply enjoying learning to backfly, but yes, at unreasonably low altitude..

backflying aint easy right away. took me a bit o time in the tunnel to really get mediocre at it. You looked like you were having a real hard time trying to get back to your belly, I saw lots of flailing then spinning.

To me this is not an excuse, and i'm not sure by your responses that you rally understand how serious this was. "sipmly learning to backfly" is really an attempt to minimize it, whether for your sake or ours.


manseman  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 4:51 AM
Post #59 of 147 (1325 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..
Safety before fun is removing the camera. No ego? Everybody tells you that you're not ready to wear it, yet you insist it's no problem. Heh.


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 5:15 AM
Post #60 of 147 (1308 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is nothing you're going to do that is going to impress a girl to the degree that her pants will drop.

Used to be ya could just jump a Mirage... What's the damn sport coming to?


sacex250

Nov 10, 2011, 7:40 PM
Post #61 of 147 (1127 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chopaka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Seriously, lose the camera. You cannot keep jumping with the camera AND be safe. Period. Take your time and listen to all of this advice.

Rudi
Does everybody have to miss the point here?

If he wasn't wearing a camera then this video wouldn't exist! The fact that he was wearing a camera had little to do with what got him into the situation. There was a pile of things that he did wrong on this jump that are generally considered reckless with or without a camera, and it is those things that were the primary factors in the peril of the situation. The camera was an innocent bystander, and by no means will simply removing the camera fix what went wrong on this jump.


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 7:48 PM
Post #62 of 147 (1122 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Seriously, lose the camera. You cannot keep jumping with the camera AND be safe. Period. Take your time and listen to all of this advice.

Rudi
Does everybody have to miss the point here?

If he wasn't wearing a camera then this video wouldn't exist! The fact that he was wearing a camera had little to do with what got him into the situation. There was a pile of things that he did wrong on this jump that are generally considered reckless with or without a camera, and it is those things that were the primary factors in the peril of the situation. The camera was an innocent bystander, and by no means will simply removing the camera fix what went wrong on this jump.

I think not.

The claim that the backflying at the end was done without regard to having the camera is basically not accepted. It has been asserted that it did not contribute to the desire to get that look back up at the girl, but there is very good history behind the rejection of that. Human nature is just that way. Many other things were done wrong, but the camera is a major part of it, not an innocent bystander.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Nov 10, 2011, 7:50 PM)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 10, 2011, 8:34 PM
Post #63 of 147 (1090 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sundevil777] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I think it'd be dumber to decide to backfly after break off than to try to film someone's deployment but really we're talking shades of stupid at that point.

We all make mistakes, the problem with this video was that it was apparently that many more than one mistake was made. Denis has had a talking to by instructors and senior jumpers at the ranch and I'm sure will learn from this.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 8:37 PM
Post #64 of 147 (1085 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

The camera was an innocent bystander, and by no means will simply removing the camera fix what went wrong on this jump.

In reply to:

And YOU know because of the vast expierence you've had dealing with new camera jumpers? LaughLaughLaugh


Amazon  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 9:08 PM
Post #65 of 147 (1073 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Seriously, lose the camera. You cannot keep jumping with the camera AND be safe. Period. Take your time and listen to all of this advice.

Rudi
Does everybody have to miss the point here?

If he wasn't wearing a camera then this video wouldn't exist! The fact that he was wearing a camera had little to do with what got him into the situation. There was a pile of things that he did wrong on this jump that are generally considered reckless with or without a camera, and it is those things that were the primary factors in the peril of the situation. The camera was an innocent bystander, and by no means will simply removing the camera fix what went wrong on this jump.

DUUUUUUDE... right on... the video exists... SAAWWEEEET.

Perhaps all jumpers .. even newbies should wear them.. it would make the job of figureing out WTF happened so much easier on all those fatalities where there is huge speculation to what actually happened.

DUUUUDE.. its all about the coolio video for Youtube.



Crazy


Cool video.. killing jumpers for 39+ years that I know of.Unsure


(This post was edited by Amazon on Nov 10, 2011, 9:12 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 9:35 PM
Post #66 of 147 (1059 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personally I think it'd be dumber to decide to backfly after break off than to try to film someone's deployment

...and both were done in this case.

In reply to:
Denis has had a talking to by instructors and senior jumpers at the ranch and I'm sure will learn from this.

Some of his statements show that he doesn't realize what contributed and how. That doesn't mean those at the ranch did not do enough to set him straight, but perhaps later on he's wanting to minimize the role of the camera.


sacex250

Nov 10, 2011, 10:30 PM
Post #67 of 147 (1046 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Amazon] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

DUUUUUUDE... right on... the video exists... SAAWWEEEET.

Perhaps all jumpers .. even newbies should wear them.. it would make the job of figureing out WTF happened so much easier on all those fatalities where there is huge speculation to what actually happened.

DUUUUDE.. its all about the coolio video for Youtube.



Crazy


Cool video.. killing jumpers for 39+ years that I know of.Unsure
Number of jumpers killed by low pulls in the last 39 years: A LOT!

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 11:18 PM
Post #68 of 147 (1036 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

Number of low pull/no pulls largely caused by the presence of a camera: Lots!


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Nov 10, 2011, 11:18 PM)


Krip  (Student)

Nov 10, 2011, 11:44 PM
Post #69 of 147 (1030 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

DUUUUUUDE... right on... the video exists... SAAWWEEEET.

Perhaps all jumpers .. even newbies should wear them.. it would make the job of figureing out WTF happened so much easier on all those fatalities where there is huge speculation to what actually happened.

DUUUUDE.. its all about the coolio video for Youtube.



Crazy


Cool video.. killing jumpers for 39+ years that I know of.Unsure
Number of jumpers killed by low pulls in the last 39 years: A LOT!

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

What are you baseing your numbers on? I hope it's not on the incident reports on DZ.com.

Any idea how many video people or the peeps geeking the camera got sucked down.

Just wondering

K-RIP


holie  (A License)

Nov 11, 2011, 12:27 AM
Post #70 of 147 (1021 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

DUUUUUUDE... right on... the video exists... SAAWWEEEET.

Perhaps all jumpers .. even newbies should wear them.. it would make the job of figureing out WTF happened so much easier on all those fatalities where there is huge speculation to what actually happened.

DUUUUDE.. its all about the coolio video for Youtube.



Crazy


Cool video.. killing jumpers for 39+ years that I know of.Unsure
Number of jumpers killed by low pulls in the last 39 years: A LOT!

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

I call BS!
Fill your profile - show your experience that we can discuss at eye level.

Mad


sacex250

Nov 11, 2011, 1:16 AM
Post #71 of 147 (1012 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sundevil777] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

Number of low pull/no pulls largely caused by the presence of a camera: Lots!
So then, why is it that students are allowed to hire camera jumpers from their very first jump? Wouldn't the presence of a camera, by your logic, cause a student to be more susceptible to a low pull because he's showing off for the camera?

I very much doubt that's the case. It's probably the opposite way around, a student would be so consumed by trying to get the jump right that the student would forget all about that ContourHD stuck to his head.

Is there a potential threshold at which the value of a small format camera might outweigh the risks, in your eyes? What about a ContourGPS? It's got to be difficult to argue against having a graphical flight path displayed on GoogleMaps inset on a video of the jump.

Flight Recorder

The problem is that jumpers can't seem to plan a jump and jump the plan. Is it really that hard to do a proper skydive?

Or, is this a territorial dispute because of professional video jumpers who are going to lose money because they've been largely replaced by technology? Is the C-License requirement just a moritoreum to keep camera jumpers employed by restricting jumpers from grabbing their own videos?

It just seems to me that there's more to this than just the safety issue.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 11, 2011, 1:28 AM
Post #72 of 147 (1004 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So then, why is it that students are allowed to hire camera jumpers from their very first jump? Wouldn't the presence of a camera, by your logic, cause a student to be more susceptible to a low pull because he's showing off for the camera?

The camera jumper is experienced. The argument about camera during AFF is different. There are instructors present to ensure the student does what they are supposed to. For what it is worth, do a search or speak to AFF instructors about this. Having a camera flyer does involve precautions and risks. The instructors need to know the camera flyer is not going to interfere with their job.

On solo status as a student I don't know what the dive plan would be, but one assumes the camera flyer would set the plan, in the same way a coach would. So at a predetermined altitude even if the student has lost focus, seeing the cameraman tracking off and deploying should wake them up, in a safe manner.

Over-all you are ignoring alot of variables. Just for one example, with a camera on jump run or two minute call you are going to be switching it on etc, that has to detract from your own gear check and spotting activities.

Quote:
The problem is that jumpers can't seem to plan a jump and jump the plan. Is it really that hard to do a proper skydive?

Remember that a single mistake could kill you. The KISS approach helps. Minimise variables and you decrease the risks. People seem to forget that having cameras increases the risks, even for a guy with 5000 jumps. It is just that the guy with 5000 jumps is experienced enough to deal with a lot more than the 100 jump wonder.


sacex250

Nov 11, 2011, 1:41 AM
Post #73 of 147 (997 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Krip] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Number of jumpers killed by low pulls in the last 39 years: A LOT!

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

What are you baseing your numbers on? I hope it's not on the incident reports on DZ.com.

Any idea how many video people or the peeps geeking the camera got sucked down.

Just wondering

K-RIP

Then why isn't there an outcry to ban all cameras from skydiving? No, the debate is solely focused on small format cameras on jumpers without C-Licenses, which is just a USPA recommendation not a rule! If there were people with 100 jumps with massive commercial set-ups on their heads then I'd see the point, as it seems most people do. That's not the problem. The problem is that the experienced jumpers have taken a recommendation and turned it into a rule to harass and harangue newer jumpers over to prevent them from using small format cameras, even though there's no definitive evidence that it's unsafe.

Should there be some law to forbid the use small format cameras on motorcycles, mountain bikes, snowskis, zip lines, and wind tunnels? Why is it that it's the small format camera that suddenly makes skydiving dangerous?


Skyper

Nov 11, 2011, 1:54 AM
Post #74 of 147 (988 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
, even though there's no definitive evidence that it's unsafe.

Should there be some law to forbid the use small format cameras on motorcycles, mountain bikes, snowskis, zip lines, and wind tunnels? Why is it that it's the small format camera that suddenly makes skydiving dangerous?

camera or anything else except standard gear mounted on your body imposes a serious snag hazard. Don't forget you're in the skydiving game. In this game even that misarable piece of s. mounted on your helmet may kill you.

Not to mention very low flying abilities of the newbies which also increses the snag hazard due to possible unstable positions.

A distraction factor adds even more risk on the top of it.

a bit off topic but...

In some countries you may not jump any kind of camera untill you reach 200 formation jumps. imho in the USA the skydiving safety rules are a bit loosey to provide more opportunities for skydiving business but it does not mean you should not take care responsability for your own safety and safety of your friends.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 11, 2011, 1:56 AM
Post #75 of 147 (983 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Then why isn't there an outcry to ban all cameras from skydiving? No, the debate is solely focused on small format cameras on jumpers without C-Licenses, which is just a USPA recommendation not a rule! If there were people with 100 jumps with massive commercial set-ups on their heads then I'd see the point, as it seems most people do. That's not the problem. The problem is that the experienced jumpers have taken a recommendation and turned it into a rule to harass and harangue newer jumpers over to prevent them from using small format cameras, even though there's no definitive evidence that it's unsafe.

You've got a distorted view of the situation. Yes a small format camera is less of a snag hazard than a larger setup, but as people have pointed out that is not the only risk.

If you are really open minded about it, read up on all the camera incidents over the years. Look at how they have contributed to incidents. It is all about risk management.

By the way I know very few jumpers with over 100 jumps who don't jump with a small format camera. I can't say that I have seen or heard of any problems amongst my friends. But when looking at the bigger picture, it is extra risk at a vulnerable stage of your progression.

I wish the community would put as much effort into the wingloading recommendation as they do the camera recommendation.


LDiCosimo  (B License)

Nov 11, 2011, 2:04 AM
Post #76 of 147 (1397 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

http://www.dropzone.com/...apsed;guest=82160489

Read through this please. The point is, it's not the size of the camera that is a concern, rather the distraction/varables whatever one wants to call it.

The two out incident we see here basically disproves your argument. The jumper flipped over and filmed the others opening then went way low. I don't buy that "learning to backfly" excuse.


MariusM

Nov 11, 2011, 2:30 AM
Post #77 of 147 (1377 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
USPA recommendation not a rule! If there were people with 100 jumps with massive commercial set-ups on their heads then I'd see the point, as it seems most people do. That's not the problem. The problem is that the experienced jumpers have taken a recommendation and turned it into a rule to harass and harangue newer jumpers over to prevent them from using small format cameras, even though there's no definitive evidence that it's unsafe.

Should there be some law to forbid the use small format cameras on motorcycles, mountain bikes, snowskis, zip lines, and wind tunnels? Why is it that it's the small format camera that suddenly makes skydiving dangerous?

You, sir, are good in trolling on Internet forums. Almost as good as S..., Sa..., San... Well, as One Who Must Not Be Named. Have strong opinions on everything, starting from cases against Cypress and finishing with GoPro on lowbies helemt. I salute you!


d100965  (D 100965)

Nov 11, 2011, 4:21 AM
Post #78 of 147 (1338 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LDiCosimo] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

ahh, it's turned into another debate on the use of cameras by newbies.....

Can we get back to flaming the guy in the video for being such a dick.

The camera is most certainly a factor in this whole event, but I think that the biggest problem was more to do with the guy himself.
The argument this presents is really more a case of "is skydiving really for him?" and "how should he be punished?"

We all fuck up, but how much do you have to get wrong before you question whether or not you really should be Skydiving at all.
A telling off for that entire cluster fuck really isn't enough. Some long time away from the sport to really reflect and understand ones actions would be most warranted.
Despite a stern telling off and being spoken to by his instructors, this guy is probably straight back up in the air with his camera and his awesome skills.
[Sarcasm on] Oh, he's very sorry, he's promised that he'll ensure the camera won't distract him again. And he's now got an audible so he won't be low again. [Sarcasm off]
In the old days before political correctness and worrying about peoples feelings, his actions would have warranted some severe reprisals.


(This post was edited by d100965 on Nov 11, 2011, 8:36 AM)


manseman  (D License)

Nov 11, 2011, 7:17 AM
Post #79 of 147 (1286 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lessons learned: pull higher, be more altitude aware, and get an audible...
Another reflection: Did you understand how low you were when you finally deployed and why didn't you deploy your reserve instead of your main?


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 11, 2011, 8:26 AM
Post #80 of 147 (1239 views)
Shortcut
Re: [manseman] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Lessons learned: pull higher, be more altitude aware, and get an audible...
Another reflection: Did you understand how low you were when you finally deployed and why didn't you deploy your reserve instead of your main?


THAT is the question.

I believe he 'knew' how low because the video shows an altimeter check, probably didn't 'understand' how low because of the standard pulling of the main.

There are quite possibly quite a few things this jumper doesn't understand clearly.

With just a fraction of a second more delay and he would have had both canopies fighting for clean air over his head, that often doesn't turn out well.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 11, 2011, 8:55 AM
Post #81 of 147 (1226 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Denis has had a talking to by instructors and senior jumpers at the ranch and I'm sure will learn from this

It seems not as he continues to downplay the role of the camera, and intends to keep jumping it.

Which brings me to my next point, am I to understand that the Ranch permits the use of cameras for jumpers with less than 200 jumps? I know it's not a BSR, but it's a reccomendation, and for the USPA to get off it's ass and do anything means it has some merit (and probably should have been done a year ago).

Which brings me to my next point, am I to understand that the Ranch, in the wake of this incident with this jumper, will continue to allow him to jump a camera with under 200 jumps?

I've already chimed in with the mistakes made by the jumper in question, so now I'll add the Ranch to the party. Allowing a jumper with less than 200 jumps to jump a camera is a risk, and this case proves that. Beyond that, to not end the 'debrief' of this jump with the words, 'You're not jumping a camera at this DZ until you have over 200 jumps', is beyond stupid. The only 'argument' against the 200 jump min for jumping cameras is that some jumpers are ready before then, and while that may be true (with the catch being that there's no way to know beforehand), this jumper has proven to not be one of the 'chosen few' who can deal with a camera before 200 jumps, and should not be allowed to continue jumping one.

Who the hell is in charge at the Ranch these days?


sacex250

Nov 11, 2011, 9:15 AM
Post #82 of 147 (1211 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Which brings me to my next point, am I to understand that the Ranch permits the use of cameras for jumpers with less than 200 jumps? I know it's not a BSR, but it's a reccomendation, and for the USPA to get off it's ass and do anything means it has some merit (and probably should have been done a year ago).
Dave, the USPA recommendation is not 200 jumps. The recommendation is for the jumper to have a C-License, granted, the minimum number of jumps for a C-License is 200, but it's still two distinctly separate standards.

Why does it matter? A C-License is not automatically issued for having 200 jumps. A C-License is a specific level of demonstrated competence and it's not unreasonable to expect that many jumpers achieve it prior to their 200th jump..


manseman  (D License)

Nov 11, 2011, 9:25 AM
Post #83 of 147 (1193 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why does it matter? A C-License is not automatically issued for having 200 jumps. A C-License is a specific level of demonstrated competence and it's not unreasonable to expect that many jumpers achieve it prior to their 200th jump..
What? If the recommendation is a C-license and one of the C-license requirements is having made 200 jumps it's quite amazing how you can conclude that the recommendation doesn't have anything to do with jump numbers.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 11, 2011, 9:28 AM
Post #84 of 147 (1189 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A C-License is not automatically issued for having 200 jumps. A C-License is a specific level of demonstrated competence and it's not unreasonable to expect that many jumpers achieve it prior to their 200th jump..

That might be so, and your argument isn't going to help the idea that people think you're a lawyer.

However, the C license is both a demonstrated level of competence AND experience. I'll let the SIM do the talking here -

C License

3. Persons holding a USPA C license are able to exercise all privileges of a B-license holder, are eligible for the USPA Instructor rating (except USPA Tandem Instructor), participate in certain demonstration jumps, may ride as passenger on USPA Tandem Instructor training and rating renewal jumps, and must have--

a. met all current requirements for or hold a USPA B license

b. completed 200 jumps, including accumulating at least 60 minutes of controlled freefall time

c. landed within two meters of target center on 25 jumps

d. aerial performance requirements, either:

(1) during freefall, perform in sequence within 18 seconds-a backloop, front loop, left 360-degree turn, right 360-degree turn, right barrel roll and left barrel roll

(2) completed at least two points on an 8-way or larger random skydive

e. passed a written exam conducted by a current USPA I/E, S&TA, or USPA Board member.


- I'll direct the courts attention to item 'b' on the list, and it clearly states that a jumper must have completed 200 jumps totaling not less than 60 mintues of freefall time to qualify for a C license.

No 200 jumps means no licesnse, which means a jumper with less than 200 jumps is below the reccomended number of jumps the USPA put forth for jumping cameras.

You said it yourself, the reccomendation is to have a C license, not to have skills equivilant to a C license. You suggested that I overstated the reccomendation by calling it 200 jumps, and not the C license, when in actuality I understated it by only calling it 200 jumps. The truth, it seems, is that you need 200 AND the C license to meet the USPA requirement (with the 200 jumps just being there due to it's requirement for earning a C license).


virgin-burner

Nov 11, 2011, 9:44 AM
Post #85 of 147 (1172 views)
Shortcut
Re: [d100965] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ahh, it's turned into another debate on the use of cameras by newbies.....

Can we get back to flaming the guy in the video for being such a dick.

it all turns into a shit-discussion and flame-fest, took quite a while in this case..

hey, it's dorkzone after all.. Wink


d100965  (D 100965)

Nov 11, 2011, 10:10 AM
Post #86 of 147 (1156 views)
Shortcut
Re: [virgin-burner] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah VB, as I was saying there was a time before political correctness and having to worry about people's feelings. So with that in mind I will add that it's nice we are flaming someone else this time instead of you.
Tongue
200 jumps, C license and not being a complete fuckwit is required before jumping with camera. Sorted Wink


virgin-burner

Nov 11, 2011, 12:41 PM
Post #87 of 147 (1096 views)
Shortcut
Re: [d100965] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ah VB, as I was saying there was a time before political correctness and having to worry about people's feelings. So with that in mind I will add that it's nice we are flaming someone else this time instead of you.

thanks, and it just happens to be my sort of feelings on the subject, too! Laugh


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 11, 2011, 1:42 PM
Post #88 of 147 (1069 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Who the hell is in charge at the Ranch these days?

Sounds like you haven't been to the Ranch before. Unless they've changed, there are no rules at the Ranch (but quite a bit of positive "peer pressure" when adequate).


sacex250

Nov 11, 2011, 3:04 PM
Post #89 of 147 (1037 views)
Shortcut
Re: [manseman] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why does it matter? A C-License is not automatically issued for having 200 jumps. A C-License is a specific level of demonstrated competence and it's not unreasonable to expect that many jumpers achieve it prior to their 200th jump..
What? If the recommendation is a C-license and one of the C-license requirements is having made 200 jumps it's quite amazing how you can conclude that the recommendation doesn't have anything to do with jump numbers.
Would it make sense to you if I said that the USPA recommendation for jumping with a camera was 60 minutes of freefall time?

Having two hundred jumps is not the same thing as having a C-License.


DaVinciflies

Nov 11, 2011, 3:06 PM
Post #90 of 147 (1030 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Having two hundred jumps is not the same thing as having a C-License.

But having 200 jumps is the lesser of the two, so by implication the USPA recommends at least 200 jumps to jump with a camera.


(This post was edited by DaVinciflies on Nov 11, 2011, 3:07 PM)


manseman  (D License)

Nov 11, 2011, 3:14 PM
Post #91 of 147 (1021 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would it make sense to you if I said that the USPA recommendation for jumping with a camera was 60 minutes of freefall time?
It sure would make a whole lot more sense than suggesting that freefall time and jump numbers don't have anything to do with the experience needed to jump with a camera. I don't really understand what, if any, point you are trying to make but try applying some common sense.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 11, 2011, 3:28 PM
Post #92 of 147 (1008 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wouldn't the presence of a camera, by your logic, cause a student to be more susceptible to a low pull because he's showing off for the camera?

That actually can and does happen.

Nice argument FAIL, genius.
As others have already alluded, you are showing your own inexperience, and clearly - NOT knowing, what you do not even know.

A good, conscientious outside camera-flyer professional will recognize when a FJC student is becoming either fixated or distracted by the camera being there, and will REMOVE it (i.e. himself/herself) from the situation tout-suite. A good, conscientious professional AFFI will recognize this, and quickly rotate the student AWAY from the camera (and yes, "sacrifice" the video in trade-off for the students SAFETY FIRST) if necessary.

I've in my experience, seen BOTH of these instances/examples, actually happen.

So now then, what more have you got, other than your totally specious, unfounded, completely empty (and inaccurate in their entirety) arguments? You would be well served instead of just spouting for the sake of hearing yourself spout, or insert yourself into subject matter you CLEARLY don't understand... instead maybe (really, truly) to STOP, THINK, LISTEN ...and CONSIDER

Your assertions and presumptions in this matter, as evidenced by your clearly incorrect (based) rebuttul(s) - other than for purpose of you maybe trying to be (apparently) inflammatory - are absolutely wrong.

FWIW


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Nov 11, 2011, 4:39 PM)


mpohl

Nov 11, 2011, 3:34 PM
Post #93 of 147 (1004 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

 

This video has been removed by the user.
Sorry about that. [YOUTUBE.COM]

Smart move, kid! Who needs these armchairs quarterbacks on dorkzone.com anyways. They'll stretch a 0.5s decision, into a 30-day discussion.

'Cause they got nothing better to do!!!!





virgin-burner

Nov 11, 2011, 3:50 PM
Post #94 of 147 (989 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

life turned qute back on ye' in the last couple of weeks, didnt it!? Unimpressed

LaughLaughLaugh


Trae  (Student)

Nov 11, 2011, 3:52 PM
Post #95 of 147 (988 views)
Shortcut
Re: [d100965] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

inreply to "200 jumps, C license and not being a complete fuckwit is required before jumping with camera. Sorted "
..................................................

Laugh
These are people that jump the gun and don't go back for the restart. They win in their own little race.

They got 'oppositional defiance disorder' .
It usually ends in tears don't it?


sacex250

Nov 11, 2011, 3:54 PM
Post #96 of 147 (988 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The truth, it seems, is that you need 200 AND the C license to meet the USPA requirement (with the 200 jumps just being there due to it's requirement for earning a C license).
The truth is that having two hundred jumps, in and of itself, does not meet the recommendation for jumping with a camera. The problem is that the recommendation is so universally misquoted on this forum that I'm sure there are numerous people who think that the recommendation is actually just 200 jumps. We already know there's a lot of people who are clearly confused between a requirement and a recommendation.

The recommendation in the SIM clearly states "C-License". To "infer" that what the USPA really meant was 200 jumps is just as inaccurate as saying that the minimum recommendation is having landed within two meters of target on 25 jumps.


(This post was edited by sacex250 on Nov 11, 2011, 4:40 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 11, 2011, 4:38 PM
Post #97 of 147 (968 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The truth, it seems, is that you need 200 AND the C license to meet the USPA requirement (with the 200 jumps just being there due to it's requirement for earning a C license).
The truth is that having two hundred jumps, in and of itself, does not meet the recommendation for jumping with a camera. The problem is that the recommendation is so universally misquoted on this forum that I'm sure there are numerous people who think that the recommedation is actually just 200 jumps. We already know there's a lot of people who are clearly confused between a requirement and a recommendation.

The recommendation in the SIM clearly states "C-License". To "infer" that what the USPA really meant was 200 jumps is just as inaccurate as saying that landing within two meters of target on 25 jumps is the minimum requirement.


LaughLaughLaugh Wooosshh


david3  (D 21297)

Nov 11, 2011, 5:20 PM
Post #98 of 147 (948 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So then, why is it that students are allowed to hire camera jumpers from their very first jump? Wouldn't the presence of a camera, by your logic, cause a student to be more susceptible to a low pull because he's showing off for the camera?

I very much doubt that's the case. It's probably the opposite way around, a student would be so consumed by trying to get the jump right that the student would forget all about that ContourHD stuck to his head.

Is there a potential threshold at which the value of a small format camera might outweigh the risks, in your eyes? What about a ContourGPS? It's got to be difficult to argue against having a graphical flight path displayed on GoogleMaps inset on a video of the jump.

Flight Recorder

The problem is that jumpers can't seem to plan a jump and jump the plan. Is it really that hard to do a proper skydive?

Or, is this a territorial dispute because of professional video jumpers who are going to lose money because they've been largely replaced by technology? Is the C-License requirement just a moritoreum to keep camera jumpers employed by restricting jumpers from grabbing their own videos?

It just seems to me that there's more to this than just the safety issue.

I salute you on this excellent troll. No matter how dumb it is you have managed to suck people right in. I think when people take a second look at your post they will realize you couldnt possibly mean the things you have written.
Well done.


Amazon  (D License)

Nov 11, 2011, 7:51 PM
Post #99 of 147 (911 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

What you don't know... is that a LOT of vidiots and the people in front of the camera....trying to get cool video... are now dead.

Some of them were my friends.

What you do not know in this sport... can indeed be lethal.

Unsure


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 11, 2011, 11:05 PM
Post #100 of 147 (874 views)
Shortcut
Re: [d100965] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Who the hell is in charge at the Ranch these days?
Just because he says he's going to keep jumping the camera doesn't mean he is. IMO, if I'd taken a low pull down to AAD firing I'd ground myself for a while and really work out what happened before jumping again. I can imagine it happening but damn, I'd have had to have really fucked up to get there.

In reply to:
200 jumps, C license and not being a complete fuckwit is required before jumping with camera. Sorted Wink
d100965 - win

Hasn't anyone learned? When someone posts a video like this, download a copy because it's sure to be taken down quick smart after they feel the heat. Yes, I did.

I'm not trying to burn Denis and as I said, I wasn't there when this happend but I know who spoke with him and I know they're not the types to fuck around or mince words. I have faith in both of those people, trust them and respect them. I'm heading up this weekend, I'll see what the deal is.


d100965  (D 100965)

Nov 12, 2011, 3:30 AM
Post #101 of 147 (2212 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

et viola...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7SdwTXJgng

Also.........In your face mpohl!

I have a library of videos on my laptop for use as learning aids. Therefore as soon as this was posted I downloaded it for that reason.

Yeah, we may be "dorkzoners.com" but I'd rather be that than a "no profile fuckwit sympathiser" Tongue

I would like to add that currently I'm still living in the 80's and would like to apologise for my complete disregard for peoples feelings and my lack of political correctness.
Carry on.....


(This post was edited by d100965 on Nov 12, 2011, 3:41 AM)


Indigogirl

Nov 12, 2011, 4:15 PM
Post #102 of 147 (2097 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Saying sorry on here won't keep you alive... making excuses for all the really, really dumb s..t you did... including posting the video.... won't save your ass another day.

You should give yourself some time off from the Sport and really think about what you did....

You are the sort of skydiver that gives the sport a bad name....

Buying an Audible just gives you something else to blame when you forget to change the batteries and it doesn't sound... and you end up in the same situation again!

You are most likely one of the idiots that has a coach rating at 100 jumps and thinks that you are untouchable...

You most likely jump in unsuitable wind conditions too... when all the "experienced" guys are sat on the ground... watching you, waiting for carnage... I bet you put on a great show then too....

Thanks for posting... reading has been great... funny how people want to blame the camera... not my choice for you with so few jumps... And to be as to the point as possible... this Sport wouldn't be my choice for you either... You are not smart enough to survive... just lucky enough!

But it wasn't the fault of the camera, it was the fault of you not having the brains to deal with the situation you put yourself in..

So do us all a big one and stay home a few weeks, until it sinks in...

Bet you won't though... because you have too much to prove and you are too cool!


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 12, 2011, 4:22 PM
Post #103 of 147 (2093 views)
Shortcut
Re: [d100965] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice, I downloaded in a higher res but the net affect is the same. Damn pommie bastard. Tongue

I spoke with the other jumper, our S&TA, the instructor I mentioned earlier and a couple of other people.

This was not a 4 way, the other canopies were from the group before, add that to the list of things that went wrong on this jump. The other jumper has fewer than 100 jumps. She ended up low because, when they were meant to be breaking off, she was pulled down a little and got unstable. She was open by ~2500 or there abouts. She landed safely on the DZ.

Many people have talked to Denis and tried to make it clear just how close he came to dying in many different ways but he doesn't seem to want to acknowledge it. He has stopped jumping with the camera, not because anyone forced him to though, I hope he's made that choice for himself.

It's a difficult situation, no one barring the DZO has the authority to tell Denis to do anything. I'm sure that there are examples of this kind of personality on many of the dropzones around the world. The unfortunate thing is that we can tell them what was dangerous about this jump until we're blue in the face but I'm sure in their mind they're fine and we're the boy crying wolf.

I was at the DZ today and so was Denis but many people who have spoken with him said that there was no point so I didn't bother. Denis, you're reading this, have a think about what that means. Please.

Indigogirlp - you're right about the canopy bit, Denis was out jumping today when most everyone else was on the ground.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Nov 12, 2011, 4:26 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 13, 2011, 1:26 AM
Post #104 of 147 (2018 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Tell him to read the Sangi story....from when he was bulletproof, and the advice he was given, till when he found out about "consequences".....


T-Girl  (D 10129)

Nov 13, 2011, 2:19 AM
Post #105 of 147 (2010 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Denis, you are an ass.. a complete ass.... You obviously don't learn from other peoples mistakes any more than you have done from your own.

Jumping in Saturdays wind conditions just goes to show what an arrogant twat you really are.

You don't just make the sport look bad, you make the Ranch look bad, you make your instructors look bad and you make yourself look like a compete cock!

And as for what you learnt.. which was nothing.... what the fuck... pull higher? Are you for real... it took opening your main below your hard deck and having your Vigil fire to teach you that... Really?

What about " deploy your reserve when below your hard deck?"

If you get into the same situation again, you will most likely do the same stupid thing... because you didn't learn a freaking thing... and the sad thing is, you most likely will do... Watch this space!

The ONLY sensible thing you did was to not release the breaks.... and that was "only just"

You even took your helmet off when you were still on the roof... way to go....

And for those of you that think that the camera had nothing to do with this... and the whole 200 jump recommendation would have made such a big difference... the camera had a lot to do with this... regardless of type... do you really think another 50 jumps would have made this kid any smarter... dumb is dumb, no matter how many jumps you have...

Like one of the earlier posts said... "Don't be a fuckwit" should be a basic requirement for jumping camera... but I am not here to bring cameras and usage into debate... there are far more serious issues at large here...

Mostly, Denis, you are a disgrace to our Sport... You quite clearly have no respect for anyone or anything in the sport, not even yourself,

I bet you haven't even given the owner of the house a second thought have you.... ?


airdvr  (D 10977)

Nov 13, 2011, 2:51 AM
Post #106 of 147 (2008 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow! Just watched the vid. In all fairness raise your hand if you've never been deep in the beeps. Hell, he had another 4 maybe 5 seconds. Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 13, 2011, 4:51 AM
Post #107 of 147 (1983 views)
Shortcut
Re: [T-Girl] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I miss that "Ranch Love". Smile Thanks for that!


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 13, 2011, 6:32 AM
Post #108 of 147 (1958 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I miss that "Ranch Love". Smile Thanks for that!

As I said... No rules, but some "positive" peer pressure Sly


jrmrangers  (B 36060)

Nov 13, 2011, 9:35 AM
Post #109 of 147 (1913 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Remster] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah im positive thats some pressure!!!Wink


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 13, 2011, 11:59 AM
Post #110 of 147 (1870 views)
Shortcut
Re: [T-Girl] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
you make the Ranch look bad

Yeah he did. I proved it upthread when I asked who spoke to him, who allowed him to jump a camera in the first place, and who was going to let him continue to jump a camera.

Of course, the Ranch made itself look bad by letting these things, and from what I gather, allowing him to jump in marginal wind conditions, but there are two sides to every coin. Even if the management is 'overly permissive', the jumper is free to set their own limits, and not run every factor right to the edge of what they can 'get away with'.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 13, 2011, 12:16 PM
Post #111 of 147 (1859 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Seeing as you (probably wisely) stopped posting on your own thread, I'll bring you back into it for a bit. I'm sure you've been reading, however, and you can see that people are not looking favorably at you, and here's why -

For starters, and I don't think this has been pointed out, but have you considered what would have happned if you had a high-speed malfunction?

As things turned out, you had a two-out and you did have an open main before you reserve deployed and I think this is giving you a false sense of security that you didn't screw up 'that bad'. From your point of view, you deployed your main, and the AAD fucked it up by firing for 'no reason', but the fact of the matter is that the AAD had a very good reason to fire, that's because it's way more altitude aware than you are and it knew about the impending imapct with the ground.

Back to the high speed mal, if you had a PC in tow, hard pull, or bag lock, think through the scenario. If you were low enough to scare your AAD, you would have had ZERO chance to pull your own handle before the AAD got to it. By the time you realized you were having a mal, you would have smoked through AAD firing altitude.

Let's say your AAD didn't work, or maybe your cutter didn't have a blade it. In that case, you would have ONE chance to pull your reserve, and have it open before impact. Let's say between 2 and 3 seconds to identlfy a high speed mal, decide to pull silver, then locate and pull (how many reserve side practice pulls have you done in freefall???). Much beyond those 3 seconds, you stand a very good chance of going in with a partially inflated reserve, or given the recent history of reserve deployment hesitations, no reserve at all. Either case is going to suck.

What it comes down to is that you left your life in the hands of a main pack job and an AAD. If the pack job didn't work out, it was up to the AAD or you most likely would have gone in.

Why people are shiting on you is because this seems to escape you and haven't ackowledged how serious the situation was. Your posts seem to lean toward blaming everyone and evertything but yourself, and minimizing how bad this really was.

I want to conclude that maybe you read the thread and took some of it to heart, but then we hear that not long after the 'roof' incident, you're jumping in wind conditions that casued highly experienced jumpers to go home. WTF dude?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 13, 2011, 3:52 PM
Post #112 of 147 (1810 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
allowing him to jump

Dave, seriously and without malice, have you ever been to The Ranch?


dorbie

Nov 15, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #113 of 147 (1582 views)
Shortcut
Re: [d100965] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ahh, it's turned into another debate on the use of cameras by newbies.....

Can we get back to flaming the guy in the video for being such a dick.

The camera is most certainly a factor in this whole event, but I think that the biggest problem was more to do with the guy himself.

There are strong indicators he lost altitude awareness due to fixating on camera flying.

He lost altitude awareness and pulled low and snivelled through 750. Better skydivers than you and me have gone in with a no-pull or been saved by AADs.

One overlooked factor here is the hot chick, clearly this is a serious safety concern and babes should be banned from the sport.

At the very least you should be required to have your C license before skydiving with anyone over a 6.


virgin-burner

Nov 15, 2011, 4:01 PM
Post #114 of 147 (1565 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dorbie] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At the very least you should be required to have your C license before skydiving with anyone over a 6.

that would make shah VERY unhappy! Unimpressed


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 15, 2011, 5:22 PM
Post #115 of 147 (1536 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tell him to read the Sangi story....from when he was bulletproof, and the advice he was given, till when he found out about "consequences".....
I don't think that'd make any difference in this case. It didn't make any difference to Sangi did it?

I think the saddest thing about this incident is that there was a lot of calculation that went into where Denis pulled and the only mistake was that he sniveled through AAD firing height a little too fast. He's just playing everyone by saying "I learned to pull higher". He kinda did but not the way we're all assuming. It's pretty obvious that we all learn about hard decks as students and minimum pull altitudes "pull higher" when you are sailing through 2k glancing at your altimeter isn't really a case of "I lost altitude awareness".

I'd love to say you guys got through to him but he's just another Sangi waiting to go splat.


frontloop33

Nov 16, 2011, 9:31 AM
Post #116 of 147 (1431 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

For starters, and I don't think this has been pointed out, but have you considered what would have happned if you had a high-speed malfunction?

IMO far worse: A low speed mal like a line over.
Let's say your are in the saddle just a little higher than the AAD opening altitude (at about 1000 ft).

So you are under one canopy that starts to spin (line over).

What to do now?
Cut away? to low
Try to land the main? Spinning to fast
Firering your reserve into a spinning main? Only option but not a very good one..


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 16, 2011, 1:04 PM
Post #117 of 147 (1376 views)
Shortcut
Re: [frontloop33] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you are in the saddle just a little higher than the AAD opening altitude (at about 1000 ft).

So you are under one canopy that starts to spin (line over).

What to do now?
Cut away?

Yes, probably.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 16, 2011, 1:26 PM
Post #118 of 147 (1362 views)
Shortcut
Re: [frontloop33] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

>vLet's say your are in the saddle just a little higher than the AAD opening
>altitude (at about 1000 ft). So you are under one canopy that starts to
>spin (line over).

If you cannot survive the landing under the mal and there's a good chance your reserve will open in time - cut away. From a low speed mal most reserves will open in 200-300 feet.

If you cannot survive the landing and your reserve will NOT open in time - open the reserve into the malfunctioning main. If you are going to land under a ball of crap, it best be the biggest ball of crap you can manage.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 16, 2011, 7:06 PM
Post #119 of 147 (1315 views)
Shortcut
Re: [frontloop33] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Firering your reserve into a spinning main?

Keep in mind the reserve PC and reserve will follow the relative wind. If you are spinng under any sort of canopy, the reserve will open to the rear of the canopy, as the relative wind is going past the canopy, not toward it.

In a PC in tow, horseshoe, baglock, or streamer, yes, you are firing the reserve into the mess if you do not or can not cutaway. Again, follow the relatuive wind, and if it's going toward the canopy, so will the reserve.

Of course, once the reserve gets open, having it next to a malfunctioning main isn't the best idea, but at least it will be out there.


paul.Mcallister  (A License)

Nov 20, 2011, 10:36 AM
Post #120 of 147 (1152 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been following this thread from day 1 and as a nooby to this sport I have found the video and comments to be very instructive.

I do have one question. At what altitude do you decide that you are not going to deploy your main and you are going to pull the reserve in order to prevent AAD induced two out? I have searched the SIM and I haven't come across the answer.

Thanks, Paul


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 20, 2011, 11:02 AM
Post #121 of 147 (1144 views)
Shortcut
Re: [paul.Mcallister] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

>I do have one question. At what altitude do you decide that you are not
>going to deploy your main and you are going to pull the reserve in order
>to prevent AAD induced two out?

I strongly recommend you do NOT do that. When you are low, get a parachute above your head as fast as you can. Most people can get their mains out faster than their reserves - and being at 1000 feet in freefall is a bad place to try to find a handle you have never even touched in freefall before.

In general a two-out is better than a no-out.

If you do want to go for the reserve in situations like this, then train yourself to do this. Practice on the ground and do practice touches in the air, just like you did with your main. That may help you locate the handle if you ever do decide to go for your reserve instead of your main.

Keep in mind, though, that if you ever do find yourself low suddenly, you will, 99.999% of the time, go for your main instead of your reserve. It's too strong a habit for most skydivers to break.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 20, 2011, 11:03 AM
Post #122 of 147 (1145 views)
Shortcut
Re: [paul.Mcallister] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been following this thread from day 1 and as a nooby to this sport I have found the video and comments to be very instructive.

I do have one question. At what altitude do you decide that you are not going to deploy your main and you are going to pull the reserve in order to prevent AAD induced two out? I have searched the SIM and I haven't come across the answer.

Thanks, Paul

In theory, if you are below your hard-deck you should immediately deploy your reserve. In practice many or most people deploy their main due to muscle memory.

It's probably a good thing to discuss this with an instructor. They have probably got some advice.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Nov 22, 2011, 2:29 PM
Post #123 of 147 (964 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you should sue Vigil for giving you a unit with a cutter blade. If you would have been one of the lucky one's with out a blade in their Vigil, you would have never had a two out, just a sick low pull video. And as soon as you start swooping post videos here http://www.facebook.com/groups/sofpidarf/


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 22, 2011, 9:54 PM
Post #124 of 147 (861 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Decodiver] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't get 1 audible get 2 and finally only fuckheads pull low.........altitude is your friend....you'll realize why the day you cut away a mal................

Tell me you are NOT saying an audible will prevent this situation. Tell me you are NOT telling him to depend on an audible...please.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 22, 2011, 9:57 PM
Post #125 of 147 (866 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?

100 jumps, flying camera, don't know EPs, alti-aware issues.

Read the SIM...you do have a SIM, right?
Oh, wait....100 jumps - camera...probably not.

2-out was covered in your FJC, right?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Nov 22, 2011, 9:59 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 22, 2011, 10:02 PM
Post #126 of 147 (1521 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?

DZH, start a new thread on this question, so it does not get lost in the thread here..
It's a good question.

No it's not a good question.
EPs are quite clear on a biplane here in the U.S.
Besides there are already numerous threads about this "re-invent the wheel" argument in here.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 22, 2011, 10:08 PM
Post #127 of 147 (1521 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then why isn't there an outcry to ban all cameras from skydiving? No, the debate is solely focused on small format cameras on jumpers without C-Licenses, which is just a USPA recommendation not a rule!

You are so far off base that I could throw you out from deep center field.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 22, 2011, 10:21 PM
Post #128 of 147 (1513 views)
Shortcut
Re: [T-Girl] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The ONLY sensible thing you did was to not release the breaks.... and that was "only just"
?

Unsure
You're one of those too, eh?
Please read the SIM for biplane.
It's good stuff because it's been tested and proven best-option.


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 22, 2011, 10:42 PM
Post #129 of 147 (1503 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Don't get 1 audible get 2 and finally only fuckheads pull low.........altitude is your friend....you'll realize why the day you cut away a mal................

Tell me you are NOT saying an audible will prevent this situation. Tell me you are NOT telling him to depend on an audible...please.

An audible would likely have prevented the situation because it would have reminded him that he was not paying attention.

That does not mean that a person has to be dependent on the audible to remind them when they need to pull.

It seems that some will equate the desire to have an audible with dependence on it. Of course that is a risk, and awareness of that risk and how to avoid it is important. That does not change the fact that having a highly reliable audible would likely have kept the OP from being so negligent.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 23, 2011, 12:31 AM
Post #130 of 147 (1500 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Don't get 1 audible get 2 and finally only fuckheads pull low.........altitude is your friend....you'll realize why the day you cut away a mal................

Tell me you are NOT saying an audible will prevent this situation. Tell me you are NOT telling him to depend on an audible...please.

Of course he's not saying trust an audible... That is why he said get 2Tongue


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 23, 2011, 7:06 AM
Post #131 of 147 (1453 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sundevil777] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems that some will equate the desire to have an audible with dependence on it. Of course that is a risk, and awareness of that risk and how to avoid it is important.
All true enough. And I agree. We've seen that dependence happen all too often.

In reply to:
That does not change the fact that having a highly reliable audible would likely have kept the OP from being so negligent.
And therein lies the rub.
Good stuff...if it sounds off....if he hears it...if he recognizes what that particular sound-off means.

Not against audibles at all....just not confident that all will go well every day on every jump. Good place for complacency to bite an ass.

Me? I have much more confidence in my two eyeballs, that's all.

Call me chickenshit if you like. Maybe I have an overly-active sense of self-preservation.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 23, 2011, 7:14 AM
Post #132 of 147 (1450 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
DZH, start a new thread on this question, so it does not get lost in the thread here..
It's a good question.

No it's not a good question.
EPs are quite clear on a biplane here in the U.S.
Besides there are already numerous threads about this "re-invent the wheel" argument in here.

Yes, it is a good question.

And a separate thread was started which examined the issue and didn't reveal any clear evidence why the 'release the brakes' method would be correct.

It may be a very reasonable option to release the brakes, and is supported by the procedures listed by a very large skydiving organization (the USPA). But the thread showed no evidence that releasing the brakes is the only correct way.

If you know what other "numerous threads" provide such evidence, I'd be interested to read them.

Saying that releasing the brakes is the only possible way basically says, "I'm an American, fuck yeah, we're always right!" or "The writers of the SIM are Gods. They shall not be questioned."

Most of what is in the SIM is probably pretty good though.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 23, 2011, 4:22 PM
Post #133 of 147 (1389 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pchapman] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It may be a very reasonable option to release the brakes, and is supported by the procedures listed by a very large skydiving organization (the USPA). But the thread showed no evidence that releasing the brakes is the only correct way.

It's not an issue of "correct" or "incorrect". It's an issue of "best practices".

Both methods have been tried and tested and releasing the brakes was shown to be more reliable. That's why it's recommended...not because it's the only "correct" way.

In reply to:
Saying that releasing the brakes is the only possible way basically says, "I'm an American, fuck yeah, we're always right!" or "The writers of the SIM are Gods. They shall not be questioned."

Well, let's not go to extremes here. Nobody is saying any of that at all. Again, simply a matter of best practices.

Let me ask...the two methods have been tried and tested and one was shown to be the better option. Why in the world would anyone choose to use the lesser of the two?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 23, 2011, 5:08 PM
Post #134 of 147 (1372 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Both methods have been tried and tested and releasing the brakes was shown to be more reliable.

Really? By whom? Where was it reported?
That's all I'm asking. I'm open to either method being better than the other, but just can't find any actual reports of tests to strongly support either method.


Decodiver  (D License)

Nov 23, 2011, 6:01 PM
Post #135 of 147 (1357 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Don't get 1 audible get 2 and finally only fuckheads pull low.........altitude is your friend....you'll realize why the day you cut away a mal................

Tell me you are NOT saying an audible will prevent this situation. Tell me you are NOT telling him to depend on an audible...please.

No altitude awareness full stop will prevent this situation, anyone back flying is free flying and at my DZ if you want to freely the rule is you have an audible.

I took Brian Germain's advice and I have 2 of them and I think that is a good idea, just passing it on :-)

And anyone who depends on an audible is a fuckhead........


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 23, 2011, 10:53 PM
Post #136 of 147 (1314 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Decodiver] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And anyone who depends on an audible is a fuckhead........
Perfectly said, sir.Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 24, 2011, 2:58 AM
Post #137 of 147 (1278 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pchapman] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Both methods have been tried and tested and releasing the brakes was shown to be more reliable.

Really? By whom? Where was it reported?
That's all I'm asking. I'm open to either method being better than the other, but just can't find any actual reports of tests to strongly support either method.

My reference is the testing done and documented by the U.S. Army Parachute Team and others. You're already aware of this from the "Steering a 2 out bi-plane" thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Canadian jumpers can do what they like. Well, so can everyone although I don't agree with your alternative.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 24, 2011, 3:01 AM
Post #138 of 147 (1277 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnMitchell] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

And anyone who depends on an audible is a fuckhead........
Perfectly said, sir.Smile

I dunno. It sounded to me like a slight accent in there somewhere.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 24, 2011, 8:50 AM
Post #139 of 147 (1201 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

And anyone who depends on an audible is a fuckhead........
Perfectly said, sir.Smile

I dunno. It sounded to me like a slight accent in there somewhere.


That's because your hearing aid was made in China...Tongue


Decodiver  (D License)

Nov 24, 2011, 1:55 PM
Post #140 of 147 (1153 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

And anyone who depends on an audible is a fuckhead........
Perfectly said, sir.Smile

I dunno. It sounded to me like a slight accent in there somewhere.

That'll be an Irish accent then............


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 26, 2011, 6:08 PM
Post #141 of 147 (1048 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Decodiver] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

One minor issue with audibles, is the ability for you to completely tune it out. Have you ever landed and really didnt remember the audible going off? as silly as it sounds I will take mine out every now and then for a few jumps and then replace it. It refreshes the startle effect of the device. Just my own thoughts.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 26, 2011, 9:11 PM
Post #142 of 147 (1025 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One minor issue with audibles, is the ability for you to completely tune it out. Have you ever landed and really didnt remember the audible going off? as silly as it sounds I will take mine out every now and then for a few jumps and then replace it. It refreshes the startle effect of the device. Just my own thoughts.

Now there's a good idea I like!


Alittleoff

Dec 18, 2011, 8:21 AM
Post #143 of 147 (857 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Indigogirl] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

When I began skydiving (not very long ago at all) we were always told, "as long as you walk away it was a good skydive". While aware of the naivete of that comment, it is disappointing to see that someone with just an extensive skydiving career, feels they need to debase another skydiver to tout their own self esteem. If you are interested enough to critique the jump with such detail, then you should also find positives and have a rational, not banshee worthy, conversation to help out this skydiver. In short, climb on out of that ivory tower. It's easy to find negatives in anything, tell me what he did right. That....is how people learn. Not by criticizing at hyena frequencies.
To the skydiver, nice to see you motivated to try new things i.e. back flying albeit a bit low, nice job avoiding the wire on that house, and lastly, thanks for posting an "educational" video for us all.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 18, 2011, 10:09 AM
Post #144 of 147 (821 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Alittleoff] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When I began skydiving (not very long ago at all) we were always told, "as long as you walk away it was a good skydive". While aware of the naivete of that comment, it is disappointing to see that someone with just an extensive skydiving career, feels they need to debase another skydiver to tout their own self esteem. If you are interested enough to critique the jump with such detail, then you should also find positives and have a rational, not banshee worthy, conversation to help out this skydiver. In short, climb on out of that ivory tower. It's easy to find negatives in anything, tell me what he did right. That....is how people learn. Not by criticizing at hyena frequencies.
To the skydiver, nice to see you motivated to try new things i.e. back flying albeit a bit low, nice job avoiding the wire on that house, and lastly, thanks for posting an "educational" video for us all.

He survived. That's about all that's right in this skydive.
True, people learn from positive reinforcement, but in this case he already knows he survived.
Skydiving isn't Little League or pre-school where everyone gets a trophy for participating whether their team won or lost.
This chain of events had several links, and removing one of them would have most likely changed the outcome.


~Camera on helmet with far too few jumps/intentionally ignoring USPA recommendation
~No jump plan in place
~No deployment plan in place
~Lost two others in freefall (was allegedly a group of four)
~fell past two other open canopies, indicating it was past "normal" pull time.
~waited for subject to pull, although well past "normal" pull time.
~no altimeter check (remember COA? it was only a few jumps past his student jumps).
~Intentionally put down on a roof when it was not at all necessary. This could prove to be very problematic for the jumper's well-being, the dropzone, the homeowner, and other skydivers if the homeowner decided to press the issue.

"Congrats, you exited and didn't hurt yourself or anyone else" isn't a valid nor valuable part of a debrief, not when we're speaking to a licensed skydiver.

Were it my debrief, it would have gone down a list similar to above, with a "thanks for sharing the video so others might learn from your mistake."


-ftp-

Dec 28, 2011, 12:49 PM
Post #145 of 147 (655 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Alittleoff] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To the skydiver, nice to see you motivated to try new things i.e. back flying albeit a bit low, nice job avoiding the wire on that house, and lastly, thanks for posting an "educational" video for us all.

Please tell me this is your attempt at making a joke. "Nice to see you motivated to try new things, back flying a bit low?

You want to congratulate this guy for that? You can take that approach, I think telling him what a stupid idiot he is to get himself in that situation is what works better. He could have easily died and number of ways on this jump...


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 28, 2011, 1:50 PM
Post #146 of 147 (637 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Alittleoff] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When I began skydiving (not very long ago at all) we were always told, "as long as you walk away it was a good skydive". While aware of the naivete of that comment, it is disappointing to see that someone with just an extensive skydiving career, feels they need to debase another skydiver to tout their own self esteem. If you are interested enough to critique the jump with such detail, then you should also find positives and have a rational, not banshee worthy, conversation to help out this skydiver. In short, climb on out of that ivory tower. It's easy to find negatives in anything, tell me what he did right. That....is how people learn. Not by criticizing at hyena frequencies.
To the skydiver, nice to see you motivated to try new things i.e. back flying albeit a bit low, nice job avoiding the wire on that house, and lastly, thanks for posting an "educational" video for us all.


This ain't tennis kid, when the spinnin' ball in this sport hits ya, it's game OVER ~ you lose.

If ya screw up here don't expect a bunch of warm & fuzzies from everybody...Gravity is not kind to fools, watch a few of 'em crater and you won't be either.


SkyJunkieA62040  (A 62040)

Jan 8, 2012, 10:24 PM
Post #147 of 147 (536 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

aww this poor dude i was there that day too... the guy who sold him the camera was fruious with himself for selling to him haha



Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)