Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Kicking legs during canopy flight

 


Tidlof  (D 6691)

Sep 11, 2011, 11:35 PM
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Kicking legs during canopy flight Can't Post

So, have I missed something about canopy safety? I thought that making the canopy flight as boring as possible was safe enough. But apparently not, according to one young lady.

Recently I'm flying along at 1500 ft, going due north as straight and level as possible and I see this canopy on the same level that is heading about 160 deg (SSE) and will pass me at a distance of about 300 feet. I was not the least bit concerned about this and if I had something else to do, I would not have noticed this person kicking their feet. But I did and I think, "well that's probably a 100 jump wonder who's excited about a 2 way or new canopy or something."

On the ground, she comes up and asks "did you see me out there?" and I think back, "hmmmm, could I have cut someone off?" But the only canopy remotely close that I saw was the one at 1500 ft, so I say, "you mean about 1500 ft over there?" pointing to the general airspace. She continues, "Yeah I was kicking my feet, didn't you see that?" "Well yeah, but.........." I respond kind of confused. She explains this is her communication to me that she's there and she would appreciate a response, presumably some leg kicks too.

I just say that I didn't know that. I don't bother to point out that at that distance and at the same altitude, at approximately the same descent rate, and as boring as we both were flying, there is no way I could run into her even if I wanted to.

So, have I missed something? i Am I now required to use leg kicking as the new and improved really safe way to make sure to avoid canopy collisions?

For an old fart, the new safety has absolutely taken the fun out of the canopy ride, to the extent, I'm tempted to check my Email on the long boring ride down.

Nomex on........flame away.


DBlank  (D 32564)

Sep 12, 2011, 12:10 AM
Post #2 of 135 (2717 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I was tought that leg kicking is a standard "Hey do you see me?" "yeah I see you." Well it may have been unnecessary at the time and she didn't notice that I'm sure you can think of times when you were wondering if someone else knew you were there?


peek  (D 8884)

Sep 12, 2011, 12:14 AM
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, have I missed something? i Am I now required to use leg kicking as the new and improved really safe way to make sure to avoid canopy collisions?

I don't think you have missed anything, but I can see that in the future, those who have been taught that technique might consider you "bad" for not using it. Required? I hope we don't get to that point.

In a way I can't say that I blame people for being nervous under canopy because of all the canopy collisions that have occurred in the past few years, but there is going to be a wide interpretation of how that technique should be applied.

What some people consider "close" under canopy and therefore what makes them uncomfortable and thinking they need to employ that technique, may by others be considered just a fly-by and a way of saying "hi" under canopy.

I do this regularly with people, and for their comfort I kick my legs just so they know that I know what I am doing and that I see them. For them to have the confidence to fly close to me where we can talk is a bonus.

For those of you reading that feel uncomfortable flying close to another canopy, well, a little CRW training or maybe just a few no-contact CRW jumps with an experienced canopy pilot with a similar wing loading can give you some knowledge and skills that will help address this.)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 5:50 AM
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure


BoogeyMan

Sep 12, 2011, 6:41 AM
Post #5 of 135 (2588 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

So, I learned something. Leg kicking.
My experience is/was that another jumper would either yell, "Yo...", or "...heads up..." or whistle to gain attention, then follow up with a crotch grab and an extended finger to all. Which was followed by maniacal laughter.
Has all the kool fun stuff gone out of style in our sport?Laugh


(This post was edited by BoogeyMan on Sep 12, 2011, 6:42 AM)


hokierower  (B 36150)

Sep 12, 2011, 6:52 AM
Post #6 of 135 (2573 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, I was taught this and use it frequently. It's an easy way to confirm that you both see each other, similar to wing wagging for planes. If I don't get a response then I stay the hell away from them.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 12, 2011, 7:03 AM
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not something new, it's something I've been using for years.

I use it whenever I want to make sure a person sees me, and in my case this often involves me wanting to fly close to them under canopy for filming/photos (tandemvideo, newbies after a FS3 competition etc). If they don't respond, I take it they didn't see me and I stay the heck away from them.

Most people here seem to know what the leg kicking means. It's also used as a "breakoff" signal after CRW (or me sticking close to another canopy for filming), "bye".

But yeah, i suppose if you're exited you could use it also Cool I did get a shot of such an exited jumper after the WorldTeam 2006 record, it's in the record video @ 3:13 Wink


Tidlof  (D 6691)

Sep 12, 2011, 8:12 AM
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Re: OK, got it, [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the education without the flames. Now I know and it will give me something to do under canopy besides just wait to get to the ground.

I guess I've jumped so many years with buds I know and trust on "my DZ" that it never came up. On 4 way loads, and after clearing the air below, 2 or 3 of us would "dog-fight" and spiral down chasing each other as well as just fly no contact CRW. Now of course, we don't do that and especially not at other DZ's because just seeing 2 canopies that close would scare people and they'd be calling immediately for an ambulance. Or a straight jacket.

Since I don't have a home DZ anymore and jump with lots of strangers, I would've thought I'd have seen lots of leg kicking before this. But I'm on belly flying loads with other old farts who, apparently, are as clueless as I am. But not to worry, we'll soon be in our rocking chairs and out of the way. Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 12, 2011, 8:31 AM
Post #9 of 135 (2477 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure

Do we wave at each other on the highway?


piisfish

Sep 12, 2011, 8:36 AM
Post #10 of 135 (2472 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do we wave at each other on the highway?
you never drove in Ireland did you ?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Sep 12, 2011, 9:09 AM
Post #11 of 135 (2430 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure

Do we wave at each other on the highway?

I've seen it done and my thoughts have also been... if you don't cut across the landing pattern and go with the flow of traffic... would there ever be a need for the leg-kicking for those situations other than, OH SHIT. Kinda like a car horn to a fuck up. If we're all using the car horn... after awhile nobody pays attention.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 12, 2011, 10:21 AM
Post #12 of 135 (2373 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>Do we wave at each other on the highway?

Nope. But we definitely talk to each other when flying at an uncontrolled airport, which is a much closer comparison. Skydivers would talk to each other if they could, but that's hard. A leg wave is a (partial) substitute for that level of communication, meaning basically "I see you." There are a great many times that I've been happy to see that signal from someone else who (initially) looks like they are fixing to blunder into me.


JohnRich  (D License)

Sep 12, 2011, 10:59 AM
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Re: [BoogeyMan] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My experience is/was that another jumper would either yell, "Yo...", or "...heads up..." or whistle to gain attention, then follow up with a crotch grab and an extended finger to all. Which was followed by maniacal laughter. Has all the kool fun stuff gone out of style in our sport?Laugh

Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool full-face helmets which block off their ears and their sense of hearing, as well as their ability to project a laugh or to shout out at you. And they also wear those cool mirror sunglasses so that you can't make eye contact and you don't know where they're looking, so that's now out too. Then there's the cool high performance canopies which the users don't dare take their hands out of the toggles for a second to grab their crotch. And of course, they're wearing a Go-Pro camera on their helmet too, so they don't want to turn their head to look at you because it will mess up the video. So, yeah, all we've got left is a leg kick with which to communicate. Something will probably come along shortly to remove that too. Then we'll be down to; "Hey, didn't you see me wiggling my toes at you?"


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Sep 12, 2011, 12:20 PM)


shropshire  (C License)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:08 AM
Post #14 of 135 (2345 views)
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Re: [hokierower] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I don't get a response then I stay the hell away from them.


Cool - I get space


BoogeyMan

Sep 12, 2011, 11:11 AM
Post #15 of 135 (2340 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Gaawd........... Your right. How depressing.Unsure
On the lighter side, though, one should always be able to find time for a quick crotch grab or to project a finger. I mean, what are friends for?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:27 AM
Post #16 of 135 (2331 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure

Do we wave at each other on the highway?

Nope. We use center lines, brakes lights, and turn signals instead.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:38 AM
Post #17 of 135 (2319 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I got center lines, and I could stick a hand out if I want to turn? (@2:08 but the whole thing is funny of course)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:39 AM
Post #18 of 135 (2315 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure

Do we wave at each other on the highway?

I've seen it done and my thoughts have also been... if you don't cut across the landing pattern and go with the flow of traffic... would there ever be a need for the leg-kicking for those situations other than, OH SHIT. Kinda like a car horn to a fuck up. If we're all using the car horn... after awhile nobody pays attention.

Unlike driving where lane markings dictate vehicle positioning and laws tightly control movement, there are an infinite number of variables while flying canopies, especially above "pattern" altitude where there is no set way to fly.

There have been many collisions and many times more near-misses from "I thought you saw me" syndrome. Using visual signals under canopy is a way to communicate traffic identification, much the way pilots wag their wings at each other or more commonly use radios to verbally communicate traffic identification and response.


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:49 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And they also wear those cool mirror sunglasses so that you can't make eye contact and you don't know where they're looking.

If another canopy pilot's mirror sunglasses are causing you a problem, I'd say you're already too close. Especially if you can see your reflection Wink.


(This post was edited by MikeJD on Sep 12, 2011, 11:50 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:59 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Motorcyclists generally do!
Tongue


airtwardo  (D License)

Sep 12, 2011, 12:26 PM
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Re: [shropshire] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If I don't get a response then I stay the hell away from them.


Cool - I get space

Exactly...sure I see ya, saw ya long before you were tread-milling. If I don't respond maybe you'll keep your distance! CoolSly


shropshire  (C License)

Sep 12, 2011, 1:16 PM
Post #22 of 135 (2246 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
If I don't get a response then I stay the hell away from them.


Cool - I get space

Exactly...sure I see ya, saw ya long before you were tread-milling. If I don't respond maybe you'll keep your distance! CoolSly

Yeap - you got itCool


ufk22  (D 16168)

Sep 12, 2011, 2:34 PM
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Had the same thing happen last year down at Sebastian.
Only, this gal got right in my face about it.
She was never within 500 yards of me under canopy.
I had never heard of this either.
Neither had a number of people I talked to at Sebastian. Seems to be, if I can see you, I'll wag my legs, not just if there is any chance of a canopy collision.
No problem, I'll use it when necessary.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 12, 2011, 5:07 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool ......
You forgot.....MP3 players for the brain-dead and digital altimeter beepers in the helmet to tell them when to turn.


To everyone:
It's a good safety habit.
It's a good common sense thing
It's good manners
It's a good courtesy
....to acknowledge that you see someone.

Not everyone is aware. Not everyone will react properly even if they are aware. Not everyone is the hotshot canopy pilot that can skim the top of your canopy on a high-speed drive-by.

Kick to ask, kick to acknowedge...really simple.

The Sebastian girl was off base...not every one knows this little trick. Education is sometimes better than a good, old-fashioned bitch-out


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 5:43 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool ......
You forgot.....MP3 players for the brain-dead and digital altimeter beepers in the helmet to tell them when to turn.

Not to mention today's faster canopies create a lot more wind noise, reducing hearing ability.

Kicky, kicky folks.


CloudyHead  (A License)

Sep 12, 2011, 6:03 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

wouldn't it be safest to just not respond? If she thinks you can't see her, she will be more likely to stay away. i can't stop scratching my head at this .. shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 7:00 PM
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Re: [CloudyHead] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wouldn't it be safest to just not respond? If she thinks you can't see her, she will be more likely to stay away. i can't stop scratching my head at this .. shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?

Your comment makes it sound like you think two pilots who see each other is somehow more dangerous because the pilots would then fly dangerously close to each other. That's like saying if you see a car coming at you, you would then hug the center line. Makes no sense.

It isn't about keeping distance. That's expected anyway. It's about knowing the other pilot sees you and you see him or her. Knowing that your position has been identified by the other pilot frees you up to look for other traffic that may NOT see you. Additionally, if you are focused too much on staying away from someone who hasn't confirmed they see you, it is much more likely that you could run into someone else that you never saw.

It's about the elimination of the unknown while flying in what amounts to uncontrolled airspace.

Pilots of aircraft do the same thing using mutual radio calls announcing visual contact with other aircraft and it works. Air traffic controllers even use this method by asking the pilots of 2 nearby aircraft to confirm identification of one another.

This is a "best practice" in aviation in general. Not sure how anyone would think we are the exception.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Sep 12, 2011, 7:05 PM
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Re: [CloudyHead] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?
Now I understand your handle. Smile

I think the point is that everyone will be safer if people let others know they are aware of their presence. You might be safer letting someone think you aren't aware of them, but then that other jumper is probably going to be hypervigilant about what you might do, and so making them less able to pay attention to others (or to just relax and enjoy the flight).

Going back to the car analogy, you would be safer if everyone else thought you might abruptly swerve into their lane at any moment, but everyone else is either going to be pulled over onto the side to give you space, or will be nervous as hell until you pass.


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 12, 2011, 8:55 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

VERY well stated!
Fully agreed - and also what I was taught as a student jumper.
Cool


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Sep 13, 2011, 5:45 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Yea but airplanes usually aren't in the pattern with 21 other airplanes. I'd be kicking the whole time under canopy... and confusing a lot of people...

Now if we had radios....it would probably sound like unicom...


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 13, 2011, 5:56 AM
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yea but airplanes usually aren't in the pattern with 21 other airplanes. I'd be kicking the whole time under canopy... and confusing a lot of people...

Now if we had radios....it would probably sound like unicom...

Sorry DB, a simple leg wave doesn't confuse anyone - except maybe you apparently. I've been jumping for 26 years and using the technique for 26 years. I have never once heard anyone say a quick scissor kick confused them.

Not sure why a few folks insist on dissing something so simple and effective. Of course some folks think we need to get beeped at to know when to turn in the pattern too.

Geez.Crazy


BoogeyMan

Sep 13, 2011, 7:01 AM
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Re: [ufk22] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Had the same thing happen last year down at Sebastian.
Only, this gal got right in my face about it.
She was never within 500 yards of me under canopy.
I had never heard of this either.


So, possibly, this is another clever way to meet babes?


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Sep 13, 2011, 7:09 AM
Post #33 of 135 (1006 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

It a very ineffective form of communication. You see someone kick their legs. Is that message for you? It might be. Might not. Now you think that they see you. Are you really any better off?

I'll save my leg kicking for line twist and water landings and treat everyone like they don't see me.


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 13, 2011, 7:54 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not dissing it.

I am suggesting that the girl who the OP posted about became to preoccupied with kicking and looking for a response, rather than devoting all her attention to flying a parachute.

I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Sep 13, 2011, 8:13 AM
Post #35 of 135 (985 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

Exactly....that's what her priority needs to be under canopy, not kicking.

See and Avoid.

j


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 13, 2011, 8:51 AM
Post #36 of 135 (976 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It a very ineffective form of communication. You see someone kick their legs. Is that message for you? It might be. Might not. Now you think that they see you. Are you really any better off?

When I wave at someone else I'm also looking at them and when they see me do it and do it back they are obviously looking at me or they wouldn't know to return the gesture. That's solidifies the message pretty darn well.

When I wave while looking at the other person and they wave back while looking at me, that's NOT ineffective communication. That a clear confirmation that we see one another. It's very clear what is being said and removes any doubt that both pilots are aware of the other's position. As I said before, I've been doing it and teaching it for years and have not heard even ONCE that anyone was confused about it.

If the person waving their legs is looking the other direction when they do it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they are waving at someone else - and that's easy to confirm by looking to see what they are looking at. And what they are looking at might just be someone you didn't see in the first place!


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 13, 2011, 9:13 AM
Post #37 of 135 (961 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not dissing it.

I am suggesting that the girl who the OP posted about became to preoccupied with kicking and looking for a response, rather than devoting all her attention to flying a parachute.

I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

You can't avoid what you can't see - as in someone above you.

There are many times when 2 jumpers are more or less on level and could signal that they see each other, and then become not on level - like when one does a spiral to create vertical separation or the two canopies have different loadings. Using your argument of not caring if the other guy sees you (and therefore never bothered to confirm a mutual visual), you could find yourself the low man after you had the opportunity to communicate.

In that scenario you are a sitting duck, waiting to be taken out by the guy you didn't care about communicating with when you could've.

Remember, it's the things you do that you don't have to do that will make the difference when it's too late to do anything about it.

As for a jumper getting so preoccupied with communicating that they fail to keep looking and avoiding other traffic, that person shouldn't be in the air in the first place. Canopy safety requires multi-tasking and anyone who can't do that should choose a less tasking hobby.

BTW, I'm not talking about looking around all over the place and waving at everyone in the air. When I talk about waving, I am referring to doing it when other traffic could be a factor.

While I have heard many, many times a jumper tell another jumper after a near-miss "I thought you saw me", I have never heard ANYONE discuss how a close call was CAUSED by a mutual communication. That's enough of an argument for me.

Aircraft pilots confirm visual ID on other aircraft constantly through wing wagging, mutual radio calls, and even by confirming with air traffic controllers that they "have a visual on the traffic".

It works, and given our miserable record of canopy collisions I think we should all consider using it.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 13, 2011, 9:17 AM
Post #38 of 135 (958 views)
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Re: [BoogeyMan] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Had the same thing happen last year down at Sebastian.
Only, this gal got right in my face about it.
She was never within 500 yards of me under canopy.
I had never heard of this either.


So, possibly, this is another clever way to meet babes?

That gal is the same as the folks who think they MUST be on final by XXX feet - taking a good idea to a ridiculous extreme. Obviously at 500 yards out communication would be unnecessary. As a proponent of visual communication under canopy, I only advocate doing it when you are close enough that the other jumper could actually be a factor to you.

Did you mention to her that at 500 yards you couldn't even see her waving her legs?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 13, 2011, 9:20 AM
Post #39 of 135 (955 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>You see someone kick their legs. Is that message for you?

If they are looking at you when they do it - probably yes.


BoogeyMan

Sep 13, 2011, 9:43 AM
Post #40 of 135 (947 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Jeeze, Billy........!!! We're right back where we started. Full face helmets, reflective goggles...!! Perhaps the way to go is semaphore. Canopy lights actuated by a button wired to the toggles, so the hot canopy flyers won't have to take their hands off to wave at others. Shocked


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 13, 2011, 9:43 AM
Post #41 of 135 (946 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Recently I'm flying along at 1500 ft, going due north as straight and level as possible and I see this canopy on the same level that is heading about 160 deg (SSE) and will pass me at a distance of about 300 feet.

1500 feet is fairly close to pattern altitude. If I'm on the same level with someone at 1500 feet and we're heading for the same landing area, I'd be kicking my feet too. It would be nice to know that you see me - if we continue to fly on the same level throughout the pattern, it is possible for us to collide, especially if the "lead" canopy does S turns on final.

Kick your legs back if you want. More importantly, create vertical separation if you see someone on your level flying a similar canopy/wingloading. Out of curiosity, did she lose or gain altitude on you after she kicked her legs or did she remain on level with you throughout the pattern?

In reply to:
For an old fart, the new safety has absolutely taken the fun out of the canopy ride, to the extent, I'm tempted to check my Email on the long boring ride down.

Yeah, I miss the days of post-RW CRW hookups and spiraling down to final too. But remember, we all jumped similar (and slow) mains back then. This new safety you speak of is needed considering the wide range of canopy speeds on any particular load, . The Big Sky Theory is no longer valid.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 13, 2011, 10:16 AM
Post #42 of 135 (927 views)
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Re: [BoogeyMan] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>We're right back where we started. Full face helmets, reflective goggles...!

90% of the people I jump with use full face helmets. It's still pretty easy to tell if they're looking at your or not. It's really not that hard.


Hellis

Sep 13, 2011, 12:36 PM
Post #43 of 135 (884 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>We're right back where we started. Full face helmets, reflective goggles...!

90% of the people I jump with use full face helmets. It's still pretty easy to tell if they're looking at your or not. It's really not that hard.

I think you missread what he meant Bill.
He uses a fullface, and reflective googles and cant see the other people.

But if he really means he cant see the difference of front and back of a helmet, you are either ..... or too far away to and dont need to comunicate


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Sep 13, 2011, 12:47 PM
Post #44 of 135 (878 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It a very ineffective form of communication. You see someone kick their legs. Is that message for you? It might be. Might not. Now you think that they see you. Are you really any better off?

I'll save my leg kicking for line twist and water landings and treat everyone like they don't see me.

Uh, Chad and I both do the quick leg kick to ensure that the other guy sees us if it's fairly close proximity and we're not sure. I was taught that 8 years ago when I started jumping, so it's been around at least that long. I probably actually use it once a year on average, so it's not like everyone's wandering around the sky kicking like idiots, and I've found it to be very effective.


lowhook  (D 18667)

Sep 13, 2011, 2:21 PM
Post #45 of 135 (847 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool full-face helmets which block off their ears and their sense of hearing, as well as their ability to project a laugh or to shout out at you. And they also wear those cool mirror sunglasses so that you can't make eye contact and you don't know where they're looking, so that's now out too. Then there's the cool high performance canopies which the users don't dare take their hands out of the toggles for a second to grab their crotch. And of course, they're wearing a Go-Pro camera on their helmet too, so they don't want to turn their head to look at you because it will mess up the video. So, yeah, all we've got left is a leg kick with which to communicate. Something will probably come along shortly to remove that too. Then we'll be down to; "Hey, didn't you see me wiggling my toes at you?"

John, I am sure you do not have any of those problems because everyone can see you with your baggie suit and you will not steer into anyone under your paracommander and your can hear everything through your frap hat. Sure do miss those good old days.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 13, 2011, 2:30 PM
Post #46 of 135 (839 views)
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Re: [lowhook] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool full-face helmets which block off their ears and their sense of hearing, as well as their ability to project a laugh or to shout out at you. And they also wear those cool mirror sunglasses so that you can't make eye contact and you don't know where they're looking, so that's now out too. Then there's the cool high performance canopies which the users don't dare take their hands out of the toggles for a second to grab their crotch. And of course, they're wearing a Go-Pro camera on their helmet too, so they don't want to turn their head to look at you because it will mess up the video. So, yeah, all we've got left is a leg kick with which to communicate. Something will probably come along shortly to remove that too. Then we'll be down to; "Hey, didn't you see me wiggling my toes at you?"

John, I am sure you do not have any of those problems because everyone can see you with your baggie suit and you will not steer into anyone under your paracommander and your can hear everything through your frap hat. Sure do miss those good old days.

John jumps a pro-tec, silly boy.

He also jumps a ripcord, and it really freaks out the "now-genners" when they see it in its pocket directly over his cutaway pillow.Shocked


BoogeyMan

Sep 13, 2011, 2:31 PM
Post #47 of 135 (840 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

You missed it too....... Read post #13.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 13, 2011, 4:50 PM
Post #48 of 135 (823 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

CrazyCrazyYep. I bet all those guys that collided thought they were expert visual inspectors, too.
Good luck.
Unbelievably Crazy


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 13, 2011, 4:52 PM
Post #49 of 135 (821 views)
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Re: Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

All you guys arguing against this:
This is a good display of why we are having so much problems. People just don't give a shit about safety. Something so fucking simple and you can't bring yourself to do it. Not only that, but you want to argue against it.
Unfucking believable.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 13, 2011, 4:56 PM
Post #50 of 135 (813 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

It's _everyone's_ job to see and avoid.

To me kicking is a good way of determining how big a risk someone is. If they are closing with me and will pass close to me they will get most of my attention - attention that is then not available to look elsewhere. Once I know they see me then I can afford to spend more of my time looking for other traffic.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 13, 2011, 6:06 PM
Post #51 of 135 (810 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

It's _everyone's_ job to see and avoid.

To me kicking is a good way of determining how big a risk someone is. If they are closing with me and will pass close to me they will get most of my attention - attention that is then not available to look elsewhere. Once I know they see me then I can afford to spend more of my time looking for other traffic.

Listen up kids. Bill knows what he's talking about.

This issue isn't so complicated. If the traffic is close enough to worry about it, it's close enough to communicate with for safety.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 13, 2011, 6:08 PM
Post #52 of 135 (810 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All you guys arguing against this:
This is a good display of why we are having so much problems. People just don't give a shit about safety. Something so fucking simple and you can't bring yourself to do it. Not only that, but you want to argue against it.
Unfucking believable.

+1...unfortunately.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Sep 13, 2011, 7:59 PM
Post #53 of 135 (797 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, I'm asking you this for two reasons, your education and experience and that you still jump a Reflex (I think). Is it silly to ask about accelerated wear on the legstrap connection on the hip ring?


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 13, 2011, 8:35 PM
Post #54 of 135 (789 views)
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Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

It's also nice when it's one of my friends under canopy, then I know not only do they see me, but we can commence carving canopies around each other. WinkCool

Seriously, how has this become such an issue?
It's just silly fun to see another canopy, kick your legs, "I see you too! Cool! Isn't skydiving beautiful???" kinda thing???

Lighten up Francis.


SRI85  (D License)

Sep 13, 2011, 9:01 PM
Post #55 of 135 (782 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All you guys arguing against this:
This is a good display of why we are having so much problems. People just don't give a shit about safety. Something so fucking simple and you can't bring yourself to do it. Not only that, but you want to argue against it.
Unfucking believable.

horrible logic....if they didnt see them, they probably didnt see them kicking thier legs.


CloudyHead  (A License)

Sep 13, 2011, 9:29 PM
Post #56 of 135 (777 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
... shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?
Now I understand your handle. Smile


thanks for that comment dude. if you have seen me post before, i ALWAYS form my posts as questions to show full respect towards experienced jumpers and at the same time to acknowledge that i am very new to the sport and still have a lot to learn. I never say anything with a "know-it-all" attitude (something i hope i never have, even when i have 93 jumps!). I just question it -- so that i LEARN. My question was pretty valid considering that I consider my home DZ to be very professional and so i can't help but wonder why they have never taught me this safety measure.

Honestly i thought it was more important to maintain situational awareness on all traffic around you, whether you're waving at each other or not. Obviously there is more to it, and i respect this new information. Thanks.


(This post was edited by CloudyHead on Sep 13, 2011, 9:32 PM)


LDiCosimo  (B License)

Sep 13, 2011, 9:54 PM
Post #57 of 135 (765 views)
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Re: [CloudyHead] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never been taught this but...

This Past weekend after a pretty good 4way I saw another jumper semi near me under canopy who started kicking her legs while looking over at me. I couldn't tell if it was excitment after a fun jump or communication so I just kicked in response... It was comforting to know we both saw each other, I'll be keeping this up


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 14, 2011, 11:00 AM
Post #58 of 135 (708 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Once I know they see me then I can afford to spend more of my time looking for other traffic.

That's the way I've always looked at it too. Just a quick added word-to-the-wise though on this ...be careful to also not allow that "okay - they've seen/acknowledged me" to also allow you to so completely dismiss that other acknowledging canopy/canopy pilot, to the point that it bites you in the arse.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 14, 2011, 11:04 AM
Post #59 of 135 (705 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>and that you still jump a Reflex (I think).

Two of them, actually - a bigger one for demos/water and a smaller one as a backup rig. (Sadly I think Burning Man put an end to the bigger one.)

>Is it silly to ask about accelerated wear on the legstrap connection on the hip ring?

Wear on the legstrap is a definite issue on Reflexes - indeed on any rigs that have articulations that allow the two leg straps to hit each other and slide around. The most common place for the legstraps to wear out, in my experience, is on the common surface of their passage through the hip ring (where the two pieces of webbing rub when the harness is loaded.)

However I think that 90% of the wear comes from people walking around in them and squirming around in the airplane, just because people walk around in them (and sit in them) for about 30 minutes out of each jump compared to a few minutes under canopy. And if you kick that's a few seconds, so I think that's a really minor factor.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 14, 2011, 11:13 AM
Post #60 of 135 (701 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
horrible logic.....if they didnt see them, they probably didnt see them kicking thier legs.
Well, no shit Sherlock.
Did you come up with that yourself or did somebody tell you?
*rolling eyes icon here*


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 14, 2011, 11:27 AM
Post #61 of 135 (693 views)
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Re: [CloudyHead] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I never say anything with a "know-it-all" attitude (something i hope i never have, even when i have 93 jumps!).

Good stuff Cloudy. Keep that good attitude and it'll save you some grief in the long run.

Be careful who you take advice from...especially those who lack experience. People like to be helpful. Sometimes it's nothing more than an ego thing. Most often it's based on a less-than-desirable foundation of knowledge and fact.

In reply to:
I just question it -- so that i LEARN.
You're on it!
SmileSmile

In reply to:
so i can't help but wonder why they have never taught me this safety measure.

It's one of those things that have fallen by the wayside because of several reasons....generational differences seem to be prominent. Not everyone was taught this. Either it was not passed down to your guys or they elected the disregard it and not pass it on to you.

In reply to:
Honestly i thought it was more important to maintain situational awareness on all traffic around you, whether you're waving at each other or not.
Absolutely! Kicking is one more thing we can do to help prevent collisions.....and it works. Seems to me that I'd want to do whatever I can to minimize that risk. Knowing the other guy sees me gives me a warm fuzzy.

Take note, though. Just because they see you now doesn't mean you can forget about them....head on a swivel and situational awareness always.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Sep 14, 2011, 11:28 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Sep 14, 2011, 1:33 PM
Post #62 of 135 (663 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

The problems with "kicking cuz I saw you," is not that it isn't a good idea, it's that it is not specific enough.

Looking with a full face helmet at a direction and kicking may signal two people you see them, when you only see one.

Kicking your legs may signal to another canopy "I see you," but really it may be that you are trying to reach and collapse your slider that isn't quite all the way down, or you are excited about the dive, or there is a bee in your full face helmet.

Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

People tend to fly where the are looking, just a natural tendency. So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly converging our paths. And if you are focusing on one canopy awaiting that response, you may be missing another danger lurking even closer. At that point in time, your head is no longer on a swivel, it is locked looking at one canopy.

Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do? My answeris no, you still work to avoid them, so why are you wasting time, energy, and focus when gaining the knowledge does not change your response?

"The most dangerous canopy in the sky is the one you do not see." My repeated mantra whenever I am in traffic.

top


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 14, 2011, 1:47 PM
Post #63 of 135 (661 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:05 PM
Post #64 of 135 (655 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Once I know they see me then I can afford to spend more of my time looking for other traffic.

That's the way I've always looked at it too. Just a quick added word-to-the-wise though on this ...be careful to also not allow that "okay - they've seen/acknowledged me" to also allow you to so completely dismiss that other acknowledging canopy/canopy pilot, to the point that it bites you in the arse.

+1


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:09 PM
Post #65 of 135 (653 views)
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Re: [LDiCosimo] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've never been taught this but...

This Past weekend after a pretty good 4way I saw another jumper semi near me under canopy who started kicking her legs while looking over at me. I couldn't tell if it was excitment after a fun jump or communication so I just kicked in response... It was comforting to know we both saw each other, I'll be keeping this up

And you don't even have to "kick". I usually just extend one leg well forward and bend the other one backwards at the knee toward my butt. It creates a position that is recognized as a gesture to the other jumper and usually met with a like-kind response.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:12 PM
Post #66 of 135 (656 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

Yes, but people being who they are.....

You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds), kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds). Easily someone could spend ten seconds focused on one canopy and not scanning for other threats.

The radio analogy is fair at best. You can be plane-specific as to who you see or do not see and who you are talking to. Just because you are talking on the radio does not mean you are not scanning the sky with your eyes, you can listen and watch at the same time. And everyone nearby is on the same channel, hearing where traffic is located.

And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see? Because at Eloy or Perris (or any other busy DZ), that would be like going to Jazzercise!

top


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:20 PM
Post #67 of 135 (652 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problems with "kicking cuz I saw you," is not that it isn't a good idea, it's that it is not specific enough.

Looking with a full face helmet at a direction and kicking may signal two people you see them, when you only see one.

Kicking your legs may signal to another canopy "I see you," but really it may be that you are trying to reach and collapse your slider that isn't quite all the way down, or you are excited about the dive, or there is a bee in your full face helmet.

Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

People tend to fly where the are looking, just a natural tendency. So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly converging our paths. And if you are focusing on one canopy awaiting that response, you may be missing another danger lurking even closer. At that point in time, your head is no longer on a swivel, it is locked looking at one canopy.

Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do? My answeris no, you still work to avoid them, so why are you wasting time, energy, and focus when gaining the knowledge does not change your response?

"The most dangerous canopy in the sky is the one you do not see." My repeated mantra whenever I am in traffic.

top

Some people never stop. Using your logic, we shouldn't even look for traffic because we might turn toward it by accident.

Give it a rest, already. If you don't want to confirm visual identification of traffic with a simple mutual leg wave, don't. It seems to work nicely for those who do.

Geez brother, have a drink. Oh no WAIT - DON'T! You might spill it - or worse, you might drop the glass and it might break, and you might fall on the glass and cut a major artery. And the ambulance might have a wreck on the way to help you and kill a family in a car taking their new litter of adopted kittens home.Shocked

Geez.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:23 PM
Post #68 of 135 (651 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

Forget it, Bill. These folks will argue against this long-standing general aviation best practice until everyone is blue in the face.

Some people just refuse to accept good ideas unless they think them up.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 14, 2011, 2:28 PM
Post #69 of 135 (650 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds),
>kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more
>seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds).

No, because that would be stupid. See, identify course, kick, see if they kick. Total elapsed time about two seconds.

>And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see?

Nope. Just ones that are a factor. I don't really care if the tandem 1000 feet above me sees me or not, because he's not going to be a risk for collision. But that guy headed straight for me at my level is.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:28 PM
Post #70 of 135 (648 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

Yes, but people being who they are.....

You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds), kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds). Easily someone could spend ten seconds focused on one canopy and not scanning for other threats.

The radio analogy is fair at best. You can be plane-specific as to who you see or do not see and who you are talking to. Just because you are talking on the radio does not mean you are not scanning the sky with your eyes, you can listen and watch at the same time. And everyone nearby is on the same channel, hearing where traffic is located.

And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see? Because at Eloy or Perris (or any other busy DZ), that would be like going to Jazzercise!

top

You are clearly taking this to the extreme to fit your argument. No one said we should leg wave to every other canopy in the sky, just the traffic that could be a factor.

Additionally, mutual visual confirmation is typically not needed in the last few hundred feet as by then everyone should already be flying a predictable pattern.

Mutual visual confirmation is most valuable between opening and entering the pattern where there is no specific flight path for anyone.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:29 PM
Post #71 of 135 (654 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The problems with "kicking cuz I saw you," is not that it isn't a good idea, it's that it is not specific enough.

Looking with a full face helmet at a direction and kicking may signal two people you see them, when you only see one.

Kicking your legs may signal to another canopy "I see you," but really it may be that you are trying to reach and collapse your slider that isn't quite all the way down, or you are excited about the dive, or there is a bee in your full face helmet.

Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

People tend to fly where the are looking, just a natural tendency. So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly converging our paths. And if you are focusing on one canopy awaiting that response, you may be missing another danger lurking even closer. At that point in time, your head is no longer on a swivel, it is locked looking at one canopy.

Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do? My answeris no, you still work to avoid them, so why are you wasting time, energy, and focus when gaining the knowledge does not change your response?

"The most dangerous canopy in the sky is the one you do not see." My repeated mantra whenever I am in traffic.

top

Some people never stop. Using your logic, we shouldn't even look for traffic because we might turn toward it by accident.

Give it a rest, already. If you don't want to confirm visual identification of traffic with a simple mutual leg wave, don't. It seems to work nicely for those who do.

Geez brother, have a drink. Oh no WAIT - DON'T! You might spill it - or worse, you might drop the glass and it might break, and you might fall on the glass and cut a major artery. And the ambulance might have a wreck on the way to help you and kill a family in a car taking their new litter of adopted kittens home.Shocked

Geez.

No, Chuck, I don't really care that much, just having a discussion. That is what this area is for, if I recall correctly. We call it "learning." Maybe, someone will convince me of the error of my ways, or I will convince them of my wisdom. Either way, we speak respectfully of each other and appreciate each other's viewpoint. And those lurking can learn the validity of both sides, and form their own opinion.

And don't talk about spilling my drink, that is a PA!Tongue

top


topdocker  (D 12018)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:31 PM
Post #72 of 135 (653 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

Yes, but people being who they are.....

You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds), kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds). Easily someone could spend ten seconds focused on one canopy and not scanning for other threats.

The radio analogy is fair at best. You can be plane-specific as to who you see or do not see and who you are talking to. Just because you are talking on the radio does not mean you are not scanning the sky with your eyes, you can listen and watch at the same time. And everyone nearby is on the same channel, hearing where traffic is located.

And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see? Because at Eloy or Perris (or any other busy DZ), that would be like going to Jazzercise!

top

You are clearly taking this to the extreme to fit your argument. No one said we should leg wave to every other canopy in the sky, just the traffic that could be a factor.

Additionally, mutual visual confirmation is typically not needed in the last few hundred feet as by then everyone should already be flying a predictable pattern.

Mutual visual confirmation is most valuable between opening and entering the pattern where there is no specific flight path for anyone.

See, now the newbies have learned something!

top


SRI85  (D License)

Sep 14, 2011, 2:59 PM
Post #73 of 135 (643 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

i prefer to yell at other people under canopy if they are a factor.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 14, 2011, 4:22 PM
Post #74 of 135 (620 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The problems with "kicking cuz I saw you," is not that it isn't a good idea, it's that it is not specific enough.

Looking with a full face helmet at a direction and kicking may signal two people you see them, when you only see one.

Kicking your legs may signal to another canopy "I see you," but really it may be that you are trying to reach and collapse your slider that isn't quite all the way down, or you are excited about the dive, or there is a bee in your full face helmet.

Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

People tend to fly where the are looking, just a natural tendency. So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly converging our paths. And if you are focusing on one canopy awaiting that response, you may be missing another danger lurking even closer. At that point in time, your head is no longer on a swivel, it is locked looking at one canopy.

Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do? My answeris no, you still work to avoid them, so why are you wasting time, energy, and focus when gaining the knowledge does not change your response?

"The most dangerous canopy in the sky is the one you do not see." My repeated mantra whenever I am in traffic.

top

Some people never stop. Using your logic, we shouldn't even look for traffic because we might turn toward it by accident.

Give it a rest, already. If you don't want to confirm visual identification of traffic with a simple mutual leg wave, don't. It seems to work nicely for those who do.

Geez brother, have a drink. Oh no WAIT - DON'T! You might spill it - or worse, you might drop the glass and it might break, and you might fall on the glass and cut a major artery. And the ambulance might have a wreck on the way to help you and kill a family in a car taking their new litter of adopted kittens home.Shocked

Geez.

No, Chuck, I don't really care that much, just having a discussion. That is what this area is for, if I recall correctly. We call it "learning." Maybe, someone will convince me of the error of my ways, or I will convince them of my wisdom. Either way, we speak respectfully of each other and appreciate each other's viewpoint. And those lurking can learn the validity of both sides, and form their own opinion.

And don't talk about spilling my drink, that is a PA!Tongue

top

Never confuse opinions with wisdom.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 14, 2011, 4:47 PM
Post #75 of 135 (615 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i prefer to yell at other people under canopy if they are a factor.

What about:

1. Full-face helmets (diminished hearing ability & diminished vocal volume)

2. Audibles (additional blockage to the ear and thus further diminished hearing)

3. fast canopies (greater wind noise)

4. hearing impairments (like us old guys)

5. directional identification problems (see numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4)

Unfortunately hearing is the most adversely affected of the human senses by the skydiving environment and our truly amazing equipment.


SRI85  (D License)

Sep 14, 2011, 5:38 PM
Post #76 of 135 (855 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

All valid points, but i just dont think this leg kicking business is a real answer. I dont think it would have prevented any of these canopy collisions. Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.

If legkicking makes you feel more comfortable go for it...I just dont think its the answer to the problem.

i think we have all been taught the answer, its just a matter of complacency.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Sep 14, 2011, 6:30 PM
Post #77 of 135 (851 views)
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Re: [CloudyHead] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
... shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?
Now I understand your handle. Smile
thanks for that comment dude. ...

Sorry, no disrespect was intended. That comment by me was an attempt at gentle humor, but in retrospect I can see how it can be misconstrued. As I wrote the comment, I was pretty sure you didn't intend to say what you actually said. (But given your handle, it was too tempting to not to take a swing.) Unfortunately, there is no icon you can insert in a message that means "just ribbing ya!".

BTW, I like to think of myself as a questioning kind of guy, too. I don't just want to know what to do, I want to understand why, and these sorts of discussion are very good at exposing the basis for things. (and the best discussions are ones where there is a difference of opinion.)

Peace


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 14, 2011, 6:56 PM
Post #78 of 135 (843 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All valid points, but i just dont think this leg kicking business is a real answer. I dont think it would have prevented any of these canopy collisions. Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.

If legkicking makes you feel more comfortable go for it...I just dont think its the answer to the problem.

i think we have all been taught the answer, its just a matter of complacency.

No one said it's the answer to the canopy collision issue and no one said that it will cure any kind of blind spot issue either. It is one small detail among many that will - hopefully - contribute to solving it.

As I have said in past posts, solving the collision issue is a matter of asking the right questions in post-accident investigations to get a full understanding of the causes, but no one seems to be interested in doing that.

Mutual traffic identification communication may not solve the problem, but it is a step in the right direction.

On a more interesting note, how do you figure the answer is just one of complacency (your words)? I don't know that there's any evidence that complacency is the sole root cause any of the collisions that are plaguing the sport.

If, as you say, "we have all been taught the answer", why does the collision problem persist?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:45 PM
Post #79 of 135 (835 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All valid points, but i just dont think this leg kicking business is a real answer. I dont think it would have prevented any of these canopy collisions.
If you are looking for end-all panaceas, you're in the wrong business.
If you prefer to discount safety issues because they don't solve all problems, you in the wrong business.
If you think your level of experience trumps everything else, you're in the wrong business.

In reply to:
Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.
Did I mention, no shit Sherlock?

In reply to:
Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.
So, since there's a blind spot, let's do nothing to help avoid collisions. Right. Got it.

In reply to:
If legkicking makes you feel more comfortable go for it...I just dont think its the answer to the problem.
See above.

In reply to:
i think we have all been taught the answer, its just a matter of complacency.
So, in your infinite wisdom, what IS the answer?
If you think all people are perfect and mistakes only happen because of "complacency" you are sadly mistaken.

"Complacency"...nice how you are picking the skydiving lingo at least.

Keep plugging away, though. You're young and making statements such as those are one way to learn.... IF you are willing to keep an open mind and use it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:47 PM
Post #80 of 135 (832 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunately, there is no icon you can insert in a message that means "just ribbing ya!".

Yes, there is....WinkTongueTongueTongueTongueTongueTongueTongue


SRI85  (D License)

Sep 14, 2011, 8:03 PM
Post #81 of 135 (834 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool, then i guess what we should do is put transponders and radios on everyone and correspond with ATC to fly us in. Problem solved.


strop45  (D 957)

Sep 14, 2011, 11:44 PM
Post #82 of 135 (814 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cool, then i guess what we should do is put transponders and radios on everyone and correspond with ATC to fly us in. Problem solved.
Whats your objection to kicking your legs? This is the first I've heard of it, and I'm with Andy and Chuck on this one. Its something you can do with minimal effort and I think it would be useful.

At a boogie I got caught out of position (downwind and struggling to get back). I ended up joining the pattern face to face with the other jumpers and a little low. I watched a jumper who was about 200 or 300' higher than me turn across the wind and turned to follow him... He then turned 180 degrees and flew straight back at me. I was aware of him throughout his turns, but would have much happier to know he had seen me. I wasn't in any danger, but given his strange 180 degree turn had to give him lots of room as I considered he hadn't seen me. If I had known he could see me, I would have been able to fly closer to him.

Did I need to fly closer? On this occasion no, but if I had been 100' lower then I would have been looking either flying closer to him or landing on a building or a road with power wires all over the place.

Stay safe


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Sep 15, 2011, 12:23 AM
Post #83 of 135 (810 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All valid points, but i just dont think this leg kicking business is a real answer. I dont think it would have prevented any of these canopy collisions. Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.

If legkicking makes you feel more comfortable go for it...I just dont think its the answer to the problem.

i think we have all been taught the answer, its just a matter of complacency.

Yelling did not help the incident of 8.30.2011. The surviving man was yelling to the deceased.
Neither of them deviated. We'll never know if the deceased heard the yelling, but kicking might have gotten someone's attention.
Is leg kicking the only answer? Of course not. But it is a valuable tool in what may be a rapidly shrinking number of options.


shropshire  (C License)

Sep 15, 2011, 1:00 AM
Post #84 of 135 (808 views)
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Re: [strop45] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

 As a motorcyclist - I NEVER assume that someone has seen me even if they Flash their lights - so Why on Earth would I assume that some one has seen me in the sky just because they Kicked their legs?


(people kick their legs for a whole bunch of reasons ... they ache, along to music in the head - what ever...) - It's not a signal that I'm betting my life on, that's f'sure.


Treat EVERYONE like they have NO CLUE that you are there and you might survive.... Complacency Kills ..... NEVER ASSUME.


(This post was edited by shropshire on Sep 15, 2011, 1:03 AM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 15, 2011, 1:31 AM
Post #85 of 135 (802 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.
Laugh

Maybe because you do CRW this stuff is canopy piloting for dummies. In CRW how do you keep track of each other and communicate when everything goes wrong? I assume that under normal circumstances you have a dive plan that people are following so that makes it easier.

Like Tony (Shropshire) says on a motorbike you have to assume that nobody has seen you even if they flash their lights (I've personally had people flash and it other drivers "assume" that it is for them.

I must admit that the kicking legs sounds good as a "hello mate", it is also true that kicking actually makes you stand out as a stationary object is harder to see. But I do see significant weakness's with canopies averaging 30MPh+ it doesn't take long for someone to move from where you know they are to a dangerous spot.

Once you have drawn attention to each other with your "leg wave" how do you react appropriately?


JackC1

Sep 15, 2011, 3:00 AM
Post #86 of 135 (798 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

If someone is close enough to me to be a worry, I'll be able to see where they're looking. If it isn't directly at me, waving isn't going to help much. If it is, then they've already seen me. I think my time is better spent turning to fly in a safer direction than waving back at them.

Besides people kick for all sorts of reasons, it doesn't mean a thing.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Sep 15, 2011, 5:06 AM)


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Sep 15, 2011, 4:10 AM
Post #87 of 135 (779 views)
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Re: [DSE] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Is leg kicking the only answer? Of course not. But it is a valuable tool in what may be a rapidly shrinking number of options.

The OP never heard of it. I never heard of it. I was never taught this. I don't teach this. Its like the special prejump handshake thats different depending who's in the airplane with you. If the consensus is its another tool in the tool box make it the standard. Put it in the ISP where group skills are taught. Right now its seems to be like a safety meeting. You only know about it if you know about it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 15, 2011, 4:18 AM
Post #88 of 135 (777 views)
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Re: [shropshire] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's not a signal that I'm betting my life on, that's f'sure.
As is nothing else. There are no absolutes in skydiving.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 15, 2011, 4:19 AM
Post #89 of 135 (775 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cool, then i guess what we should do is put transponders and radios on everyone and correspond with ATC to fly us in. Problem solved.
Well, there's a mature response. Thanks.


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 15, 2011, 6:12 AM
Post #90 of 135 (756 views)
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Re: [shropshire] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you ever move the bike a bit to make sure they see you???

Wink

This is just getting silly people.


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Sep 15, 2011, 8:49 AM
Post #91 of 135 (732 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy.

But if they're in your blind spot, or you are in theirs, you wouldn't be signalling them in the first place.

If I can see a canopy but I can't see its pilot, then I have to assume that s/he doesn't know I'm there - and act accordingly.

It seems to me that opinion in this thread is roughly split between those in favour of leg kicking, and those who've never tried it.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Sep 15, 2011, 8:51 AM
Post #92 of 135 (731 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Is leg kicking the only answer? Of course not. But it is a valuable tool in what may be a rapidly shrinking number of options.

The OP never heard of it. I never heard of it. I was never taught this. I don't teach this. Its like the special prejump handshake thats different depending who's in the airplane with you. If the consensus is its another tool in the tool box make it the standard. Put it in the ISP where group skills are taught. Right now its seems to be like a safety meeting. You only know about it if you know about it.

I was taught this during my "coached jumps" period. I teach this (It's not really a "teach" but a "tell"). Most DZ's I've been to, whether it's US, Middle East, Canada, Australia...folks know what it means, and they respond.
Even if you don't know it's a "standard," If you see that someone is kicking their legs as an "I see you" (maybe because they're being funny, maybe it's music, maybe it's that a bug is in their crotch, but you DO see them....mission accomplished.

Until this thread, I didn't realize it wasn't a "standard."


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2011, 4:58 PM
Post #93 of 135 (669 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

And while those two retards are blocking the freq both at Lufker and the other airport within 100 miles that uses the same Freq, I'm busy scanning and setting up my pattern.

After they have finished their tea party, I'll make my 3 brief, concise position reports (or not if it's unneeded, or I'm unable) and then put all my focus of doing my best to make sure I don't transfer paint with another airplane.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 15, 2011, 6:02 PM
Post #94 of 135 (657 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>And while those two retards are blocking the freq both at Lufker and the
>other airport within 100 miles that uses the same Freq, I'm busy scanning and
>setting up my pattern.

. . . and closing with the other "retard" who doesn't want to "waste time" communicating either.

It is rarely a mistake to communicate more when there's traffic. Given that we are seeing more and more collisions in the pattern, this is more important than ever.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 15, 2011, 6:49 PM
Post #95 of 135 (649 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cool, then i guess what we should do is put transponders and radios on everyone and correspond with ATC to fly us in. Problem solved.

350 jumps and 1 year +/- in the sport and you're schooling a guy with thousands of jumps and shitpots of hardened experience?

Take it home and give it a bone, my man. I believe in taking good advise no matter where it comes from, but you are (no PA intended) a joke.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 15, 2011, 6:49 PM
Post #96 of 135 (649 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is rarely a mistake to communicate more when there's traffic. Given that we are seeing more and more collisions in the pattern, this is more important than ever.

Alas, some get it, some don't.


SRI85  (D License)

Sep 15, 2011, 8:33 PM
Post #97 of 135 (633 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I love how excited you old men get when a younger jumper dares to question your opinion....How about you scroll through the incident forum and take an accident and explain how an acknowledgement of leg kicking would have prevented it?

Ill stick to my plan of anticipating every other canopy to do something stupid.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2011, 9:47 PM
Post #98 of 135 (622 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

So glad that you've so obviously, and so thoroughly got absolutely everything all figured out. Crazy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0BIwcRaFZY&feature=related

Of course you are absolutely right. Leg-kicking between actually either one of YOU (at approx the 2:00 mark in sparkling example of your clear and obvious mad-skillz we are all just jealous of is all) - if EITHER ONE OF YOU had even as much as a 90' off-heading opening here between you, wouldn't have mattered one iota.

You just keep-on-keepin' on there Butch, and completely dismissing and discounting EXPERIENCED advice being given. It's all only old farts trying to hold you down. You clearly already know better.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 16, 2011, 3:14 AM
Post #99 of 135 (599 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Meh

Anonymous, ashamed to reveal himself, posting as "That Guy"....meh...to be expected, I guess.

I like his profile, though
"Crossfire 2 99 ft (1.57 lbs/ft)"
Mad skillz anyone?


joephus  (A 60938)

Sep 16, 2011, 8:58 AM
Post #100 of 135 (567 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

All leg kicks are doing is providing you with more information about your surroundings. It's a little packet of information that you can add to the overall picture you use to make decisions.

It is a half second process of "I see you. You see me. I now have more information about my surroundings than I did before".

How anyone can argue that having less information is the way to go is beyond me.


(This post was edited by joephus on Sep 16, 2011, 9:02 AM)


skybill  (D 6009)

Sep 16, 2011, 10:20 AM
Post #101 of 135 (654 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi T-L,
"Leg Kicking??" Hmmmmm..... 'Buncha' comments from, "In yer face," to "WTF is he/she doing???" Oh well? After hangin' round' this sport for over 40 years I can only say that nothing amazes me anymore. Kicking legs can mean "ANYTHING!!" from "Hi There!!" to "I got my nutz caught!!(he) to My leg straps are sliding up my slit(she)!!" or whoknozwhat?? If I'm 200yds away from someone under canopy and they are kickin their legs cuz they're worried that I might run into 'em, Oh well!! Perhaps another means of "Signaling" should be thought of. As Old Frank Goodman of "Mjr. Goodies Parachute Team, Baton Rouge, La." used to do, Take along a .45 cal. 1911 A-1 loaded with tracers to "Signal his whereabouts!!!" Now that'll get yer attention!!


SRI85  (D License)

Sep 16, 2011, 10:53 AM
Post #102 of 135 (648 views)
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Re: [joephus] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All leg kicks are doing is providing you with more information about your surroundings. It's a little packet of information that you can add to the overall picture you use to make decisions.

It is a half second process of "I see you. You see me. I now have more information about my surroundings than I did before".

How anyone can argue that having less information is the way to go is beyond me.

So what would you do if you didnt get a leg kick signal back?


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 11:11 AM
Post #103 of 135 (644 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So what would you do if you didnt get a leg kick signal back?

And what would you do if you saw someone kicking and they were only trying to get the blood back in their legs before they hooked a 450?


joephus  (A 60938)

Sep 16, 2011, 11:52 AM
Post #104 of 135 (639 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

If they do not respond back, it's still more information I can add to my more overall situation. "This person is more than likely not aware of my position relative theirs, proceed with that in my mind."

It really just boils down to maximizing the amount information you have on had to make decisions. I don't think anyone can make a successful argument that more information is bad in this case.


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 12:11 PM
Post #105 of 135 (635 views)
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Re: [joephus] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think anyone can make a successful argument that more information is bad in this case.

I dunno, false information could be bad. Not everyone knows that kicking means anything. People kick for all sorts of reasons. Misinterpreting someone's kick could potentially put you in trouble.


joephus  (A 60938)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:13 PM
Post #106 of 135 (636 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Inaccurate information can be a cause for concern but the off chance that you might get inaccurate information does not mean you should stop trying to collect information.

Should we stop using turn signals in cars because some people leave theirs on while driving straight down the highway? I would think not. You can observe that the person driving down the highway is not slowing down, is not turning his vehicle in any direction. His behavior is negating the information his turn signal is giving me. I proceed with this information in mind.

In the same light if some is kicking their legs but isn't looking at me, or doesn't divert course and keeps flying at me, his behavior is negating the information his leg kicks are giving me.

Again it's all information, and when life saving decisions have to made in a split second I want to err on the side of having more information not less.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:13 PM
Post #107 of 135 (635 views)
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Re: [joephus] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

How about if it's bad information that you think is good?


joephus  (A 60938)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:17 PM
Post #108 of 135 (633 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

See my response above about inaccurate information.


CloudyHead  (A License)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:24 PM
Post #109 of 135 (625 views)
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Re: [joephus] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

car signal lights are not the best analogy IMO because then we are talking about signalling a turn rather than simple acknowledgement which is a lot different. It would be more like seeing somebody in the next lane on the highway and waving to let them know you're there so they don't cut you off. Isn't it? Not saying that's a bad idea either..........................................lol


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 12:24 PM
Post #110 of 135 (625 views)
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Re: [joephus] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Turn signals are a standard way of letting other drivers know your intentions. There are even rules regarding them which every driver should know and abide by.

Leg kicking is an ad hoc, non-standard, made up thing that means nothing to most skydivers. Suppose you see someone above and in front of you and they're kicking so you kick back. You think it means he's seen you but in reality he's just waking up his legs so he can run out the swoop he's just about to turn 450 degree into. Next thing you know, he's ripped right in front of you and you were paying attention elsewhere because you thought he knew where you were.

If you want to be seen, buy a neon orange canopy. If you think kicking is some form of universal skydiver communication system that everyone will recognise, think again.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Sep 16, 2011, 12:29 PM)


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:39 PM
Post #111 of 135 (612 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 12:40 PM
Post #112 of 135 (609 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

Dozens of canopies all opening in a small space and kicking their legs. Who's talking to who and which one just has line twists?


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Sep 16, 2011, 12:43 PM)


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:41 PM
Post #113 of 135 (608 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i prefer to yell at other people under canopy if they are a factor.
That won't work for me. I'm a deaf skydiver.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:44 PM
Post #114 of 135 (604 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to jump with a whistle on big ways. Under canopy and on landing I would blow the whistle. On a POPs record attempt I came in blowing the hell out of my whistle and another jumper came up yelled at me. He said to quit blowing that damn whistle; all youre doing is trying to draw attention to yourself. I looked at and smiled, it works doesnt it. Communication can come in many forms and leg kicking has been around since the 70s. If you see some clown kicking his legs under canopy that means you see him. Is that bad?

Trust me, with so little time in the sport there are still a few things you might not learned. Wink

Sparky


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 12:47 PM
Post #115 of 135 (603 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you see some clown kicking his legs under canopy that means you see him. Is that bad?

Only if you think it means he sees you.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:49 PM
Post #116 of 135 (601 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

Dozens of canopies all opening in a small space and kicking their legs. Who's talking to who?
It mainly happens with canopies closer to each other, rather than 1000 feet from each other, usually when tracking neighbours have off-heading openings that points roughly at each other, or they are trying to merge into a pattern and want to essentially notify them of an intent to merge. i.e. situations of actual threat. Or when the a small fragment of airspace is more congested than expected.

Sometimes it avoids the needs for a drastic evasive response, if you know they aren't planning to turn into you. If they respond immeidately with a kick, while turning their head at you, you know they aren't planning to turn into you. It's sometimes safer to fly side by side than to turn left/right into somebody else's airspace, if that canopy has now acknowledged your prescence. Sometimes it is sort of like giving permission to fly 100-foot-separation CRW, or whatever -- if they don't see you, then you have to worry they may turn into you. There are certain situations where you are stuck with canopies in front, behind, and to left, right. You have to decide between flying nearer a canopy that sees you, or a canopy that does not see you. If someone gives you an immediate leg kick while staring at you and the acknowledgement was less than 1 second, it's pretty confirmed that the leg kick is addressed at you -- you ARE close enough to see their facial expression or hear them.

The useful of legkicks are actually more apparent at bigways, because it's pretty much regular behaviour at the Perris 100-ways, large State Records, and World Records.

Also, some skydivers (like me) are deaf, and any yelling is ALSO accompanied by a leg kick -- it's good supplemental visual information. BUT SHOULD NOT be depended on. It's just good courtesy.

Go to several 100-ways, become assigned to a middle breakoff, rather than an outer whacker, then you'll once-in-a-while be in "boxed-in" situations that make you understand that leg kicks are useful, after all. You obviously rather follow side by side with a canopy that sees you, rather than turn closer to adjacent canopies that don't see you (because they might turn unexpectedly into you).

In many jumps you want to AVOID being boxed in, and being good at it, you can avoid it more than 90% of the time, but there's often that "one jump" at a major event, where the leg kick may occasionally make or break a specific fly-direction decision.

Another way to picture a scenario. 150 or 200-way jump. Your neighbour tracks a bit too far. Another neighbour opens a bit closer, and because you had to track between two neighbours that didn't fan out enough. Another one opens near too. Now you're surrounded by 3 canopies between 100-to-200 feet away, flying in various directions, within less than 100 feet of vertical altitude of you. You immediately see one of them that is doing leg kicks and staring directly at you (close enough to see eyeballs), she then immediately turns towards clear airspace. You decide to turn to approximately follow her, knowing three things (1) You immediately noticed good safe airspace in front of her, and (2) she's immediately no longer a threat because she's flying directly away from you, and (3) The simultaneous instant look/kick/"yo!" confirmed your prescence, she is far less likely than the others to move unexpectedly closer to you. .... Finally now you're safe from the other two canopies that don't see you until 3-4 seconds later (during which time they MIGHT unexpectedly turn towards you)

Time elapsed for the entire paragraph above: typically 2 seconds, on average. (during which time before leg kick reply, you're actively flying to avoid everybody on average, hoping none of the 3 turns into you. But obviously in the occasional situation you are "uncomfortably boxed in", you prefer to fly near people that notice you, rather than fly near people that don't notice you.

There's a lot of sorta-fuzzy scenarios, but you get the gist. The leg kick is good courtesy at big ways.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Sep 16, 2011, 2:05 PM)


joephus  (A 60938)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:52 PM
Post #117 of 135 (597 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Turn signals are a method of conveying information, they can still convey inaccurate information regardless of laws, standards or anything else. Having laws and standards for turn signals does not make them auto-magically convey accurate information when someone has been driving 30 miles with their turn signal on. Knowing and abiding these rules doesn't always happen, hence inaccurate information is often relayed by using them. That doesn't mean you should stop using them.

I'm curious though, why would I stop paying attention to whats going on around me at any point in time, legs kicks or not? Just because we had a leg kick exchange it doesn't mean I'm going to start flying willy-nilly all over the sky.

But your scenario is actually the biggest reason I'm glad leg kicks are taught and used at my home DZ. As a noob I'm flying a docile and slow canopy and on any given load I can find myself in the middle of the load with several folks behind me flying high performance canopies. It's not uncommon to find myself in the air below canopies than can smoke right past me. It sure is comforting to know that when I kick my legs at them and they kick back, I know they see me before they do said 450.


(This post was edited by joephus on Sep 16, 2011, 1:13 PM)


joephus  (A 60938)

Sep 16, 2011, 1:00 PM
Post #118 of 135 (589 views)
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Re: [CloudyHead] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

At it's base it's all about information exchange. But that said, I sure as hell slam on my horn when someone is trying occupy the same lane space I'm using. Again its just conveying information.


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 1:15 PM
Post #119 of 135 (573 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

Dozens of canopies all opening in a small space and kicking their legs. Who's talking to who?
It mainly happens with canopies closer to each other, rather than 1000 feet from each other, usually when tracking neighbours have off-heading openings that points roughly at each other, or they are trying to merge into a pattern and want to essentially notify them of an intent to merge. i.e. situations of actual threat. Or when the a small fragment of airspace is more congested than expected.

Sometimes it avoids the needs for a drastic evasive response, if you know they aren't planning to turn into you. If they respond immeidately with a kick, while turning their head at you, you know they aren't planning to turn into you. It's sometimes safer to fly side by side than to turn left/right into somebody else's airspace, if that canopy has now acknowledged your prescence. Sometimes it is sort of like giving permission to fly 100-foot-separation CRW, or whatever -- if they don't see you, then you have to worry they may turn into you. There are certain situations where you are stuck with canopies in front, behind, and to left, right. You have to decide between flying nearer a canopy that sees you, or a canopy that does not see you. If someone gives you an immediate leg kick while staring at you and the acknowledgement was less than 1 second, it's pretty confirmed that the leg kick is addressed at you -- you ARE close enough to see their facial expression or hear them.

The useful of legkicks are actually more apparent at bigways, because it's pretty much regular behaviour at the Perris 100-ways, large State Records, and World Records.

Also, some skydivers (like me) are deaf, and any yelling is ALSO accompanied by a leg kick -- it's good supplemental visual information. BUT SHOULD NOT be depended on. It's just good courtesy.

Go to several 100-ways, become assigned to a middle breakoff, rather than an outer whacker, then you'll once-in-a-while be in "boxed-in" situations that make you understand that leg kicks are useful, after all. You obviously rather follow side by side with a canopy that sees you, rather than turn closer to adjacent canopies that don't see you (because they might turn unexpectedly into you).

In many jumps you want to AVOID being boxed in, and being good at it, you can avoid it more than 90% of the time, but there's often that "one jump" at a major event, where the leg kick may occasionally make or break a specific fly-direction decision.

Another way to picture a scenario. 150 or 200-way jump. Your neighbour tracks a bit too far. Another neighbour opens a bit closer, and because you had to track between two neighbours that didn't fan out enough. Now you're surrounded by 3 canopies between 100-to-200 feet away, flying in various directions, within less than 100 feet of vertical altitude of you. You immediately see one of them that is doing leg kicks and staring directly at you (close enough to see eyeballs), she then immediately turns towards clear airspace. You decide to turn to follow her, knowing two things (1) You immediately noticed good safe airspace in front of her, and (2) she's immediately no longer a threat because she's flying directly away from you, and (3) The simultaneous instant look/kick/"yo!" confirmed your prescence, she won't move unexpectedly closer to you. .... Finally now you're safe from the other two canopies that don't see you until 3-4 seconds later (during which time they MIGHT unexpectedly turn towards you)

Time elapsed: typically 2 seconds, on average. (during which time, you're actively flying to avoid everybody on average, hoping nobody turns into you, but preferring to fly past people that notice you, rather than fly past people that don't notice you)

There's a lot of sorta-fuzzy scenarios, but you get the gist. The leg kick is good courtesy at big ways.


Good answer. CoolSmile

I notice you say eye contact is important. It definitely is. A kick on it's own doesn't mean very much. It could be aimed at someone else, it could be the result of a "nut-under" malfunction or it could be something else entirely. Without some other form of communication, leg kicks are dubious in their intent.

But in big ways, where spirals and sharp turns are generally forbidden, following someone else (while best avoided if there is a viable alternative) does have a certain amount of safety to it. The only way you'll crash into them is if they slow down suddenly or turn sharply. At the very least, you have longer to react than if they were flying directly at you. Flying side by side, you need to know they see you. The only way you're going to know that is if you see that they see you, with eye contact. A kick without eye contact is not something I would not trust my life to.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 16, 2011, 1:28 PM
Post #120 of 135 (567 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>Dozens of canopies all opening in a small space and kicking their legs.
>Who's talking to who and which one just has line twists?

The one with line twists has line twists. Pretty much everyone who is qualified to be on a big way can recognize what line twists are.


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 1:32 PM
Post #121 of 135 (567 views)
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Re: [joephus] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm curious though, why would I stop paying attention to whats going on around me at any point in time, legs kicks or not? Just because we had a leg kick exchange it doesn't mean I'm going to start flying willy-nilly all over the sky.

Hopefully you wouldn't. But even with the best peripheral vision in the world, you can only cover about 180 degrees horizontally and about 90 degrees vertically. That leaves a whole lot of sky that is not in your field of vision and that's where danger lurks. As soon as kicking boy is out of your field of vision, you are flying on trust that his kick is what you think it is and that he won't turn into you before you look back.

Rather than rely on a kick to signal he's seen me and wont do anything stupid, I'd turn to a safer direction and put some distance between us. Even if it means a walk back to the DZ. In fact my no 1 priority after checking that my canopy is OK is to point myself into clear airspace and locate everyone else on the lift. That's before I collapse my slider, pop my brakes and do all the other comfort stuff. Then I plan where I'm going to fit into the landing order and fly accordingly. Assessing and reassessing the situation as it changes.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 16, 2011, 1:38 PM
Post #122 of 135 (564 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>And what would you do if you saw someone kicking and they were only
>trying to get the blood back in their legs before they hooked a 450?

Exactly. And what if you saw someone waving off but they were just checking their camera helmet? Might as well not wave off so you don't confuse people. And what if you heard someone say "PARACHUTE OUT!" in the plane when the door was open, but they were just saying "that's what my parachute's about?" Might as well not mention anything; might be misunderstood. And what if someone is pointing to an area of an open field and making a swirling motion with their other hand? Sure, might mean a dust devil, but it also might be the guy telling his friend there's a ferris wheel way over there.

This is getting stupid. Don't kick if you don't want to. Heck, don't even make eye contact with anyone so nothing is misunderstood. But for those of us who jump often with people we know in crowded skies, it helps keep us safer.


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 1:54 PM
Post #123 of 135 (554 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

You're missing my point. A leg kick on it's own doesn't mean shit in terms of communication unless you have something else to back it up with. Without that backup you have to assume he hasn't seen you so you get out of Dodge pronto. Same with a wave off. It means get out of my airspace, camera malfunction or not. The best option is to get clear which I reckon you should be doing kicks or no.

If you have some agreed method that makes leg kicks means something to both of you and you are sure about it, then kick away. But don't just assume some other random guy knows what you're up to, he may not.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Sep 16, 2011, 1:55 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 16, 2011, 2:06 PM
Post #124 of 135 (547 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

The human visual cortex responds particularly well to movement. The more movement you make the more likely you are to be noticed.

Having been hit from behind by someone who "didn't see" me right up to the moment of impact, I now make every effort to be as visible as possible when under canopy. If you don't like my leg kicking, then too bad.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 16, 2011, 2:08 PM
Post #125 of 135 (541 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>A leg kick on it's own doesn't mean shit in terms of communication unless
>you have something else to back it up with.

Like eye contact.


joephus  (A 60938)

Sep 16, 2011, 2:10 PM
Post #126 of 135 (443 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think anyone has suggested that you rely solely on leg kicking. Leg kicking is just a part of the assessing and reassessing of your situation that you were talking about.


JackC1

Sep 16, 2011, 2:20 PM
Post #127 of 135 (439 views)
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Re: [billvon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>A leg kick on it's own doesn't mean shit in terms of communication unless
>you have something else to back it up with.

Like eye contact.

I know that there is at least one blind skydiver out there but usually, if someone is looking directly at you then there is a fair chance they've seen you.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 16, 2011, 5:52 PM
Post #128 of 135 (415 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont know what it is you are arguing about but lets just say you will and drop the matter. Tongue

Sparky


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Sep 16, 2011, 6:44 PM
Post #129 of 135 (408 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

Are they briefed?


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Sep 16, 2011, 11:04 PM
Post #130 of 135 (392 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

Are they briefed?

I've been to a few bigways, have been jumping for more than a few years, and I even spent some time as an AFF instructor. I don't think I have ever heard about this leg kicking thing.

I guess people are good at steering away from me.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Sep 17, 2011, 4:06 AM
Post #131 of 135 (374 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

"West Coast Kik"
There, I have named it.

Now here on the east coast when someone is near us we flap our elbows which means fly way. So if any of left coasters come our way you have been briefed.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 17, 2011, 5:35 PM
Post #132 of 135 (344 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know that there is at least one blind skydiver out there but usually, if someone is looking directly at you then there is a fair chance they've seen you.

So, do we take it that if someone's head is turned your way you're going to assume that they see you yet you have a problem with a visual verification?

You say kicking is not, in and of itself, sufficient and one needs back-up. What back-up would you suggest?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 17, 2011, 5:39 PM
Post #133 of 135 (343 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...But don't just assume some other random guy knows what you're up to, he may not.

Which is what started this thread in the first place. Good piece of educational benefit here. You can elect to use it or not. If you're looking for absolutes in skydiving, you'll have a hard time finding any.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 17, 2011, 5:42 PM
Post #134 of 135 (342 views)
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Re: [joephus] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All leg kicks are doing is providing you with more information about your surroundings. It's a little packet of information that you can add to the overall picture you use to make decisions.

It is a half second process of "I see you. You see me. I now have more information about my surroundings than I did before".

How anyone can argue that having less information is the way to go is beyond me.

Funny how a young jumper gets it and so many more experienced ones don't.

Welcome to the world of "it's all about me and screw everybody else. I'm not gonna do anything to help out others because I don't agree with whatever it is."


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2011, 7:41 PM
Post #135 of 135 (332 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>but usually, if someone is looking directly at you then there is a fair
>chance they've seen you.

Agreed. And if you kick and get a kick in reply there is an _excellent_ chance that they've seen you.



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