Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Open door on takeoff

 

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Gato  (C License)

Aug 10, 2011, 10:03 AM
Post #51 of 78 (1120 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've jumped at 25+ dropzones and I don't think I can ever recall a place where the door was not re-closed at some point prior to jump run; usually between 5,000 and 8,000 feet depending on how hot it is. This allows for everyone to safely do handle checks, for the TIs to safely hook up their students, for people to move around getting in position and putting up benches, without the added risk of something getting bumped during that process with an open door.

So you can still yell "DOOR!" LaughCool


Good point. That's usually what happens at our DZ as well.


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 10, 2011, 10:41 AM
Post #52 of 78 (1096 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:

One other thing no one's mentioned yet: If the door's open on the way to altitude, you're robbed of the privilege of yelling, "Door!"

I've jumped at 25+ dropzones and I don't think I can ever recall a place where the door was not re-closed at some point prior to jump run; usually between 5,000 and 8,000 feet depending on how hot it is. This allows for everyone to safely do handle checks, for the TIs to safely hook up their students, for people to move around getting in position and putting up benches, without the added risk of something getting bumped during that process with an open door.

So you can still yell "DOOR!" LaughCool

It also makes it easier for the vidiots to do the 'in air interview'... Lot less noise when the door is closed.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 10, 2011, 10:54 AM
Post #53 of 78 (1091 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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So you can still yell "DOOR!" LaughCool

yes, but please don't, it's idiotic


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Aug 10, 2011, 2:50 PM
Post #54 of 78 (1047 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
So you can still yell "DOOR!" LaughCool

yes, but please don't, it's idiotic

But so much fun to do! Angelic


petejones45  (C License)

Aug 10, 2011, 2:57 PM
Post #55 of 78 (1045 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 10, 2011, 3:49 PM
Post #56 of 78 (1039 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

And the pioneers jumped with B-4 containers and chest mount reserves. They had to, it was not by choice.
Taking with the door open can be a big deal. Operating with the door off/open changes the allowable VNE speeds as well as maneuvering speed. Placards must be in place to indicate what these speeds are. It can affect the aircrafts ability to reach V2 and V2min. causing a safety concern on shorter runways.
To take off with the door open is just not the smart thing to do.

Sparky

At least youre consistent.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 10, 2011, 4:20 PM
Post #57 of 78 (1030 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

>It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off . . .

>A open missing door is not a major issue

Overall it is a pretty significant issue.

1) If you fall out below 500 feet or so you can die.

2) If you have ANY gear problem, fixing it by an open door is a recipe for disaster. A loose PC, for example, is a non issue if a door is installed and closed. It may get everyone on the aircraft killed if there is no door there.

2a) The most likely time you will see a reserve suddenly appear is during a pin check, where people yank on covers, tug on cables etc. That's why it's a good idea to do it with the door closed. If the door cannot be closed either you a) skip pin checks (not a great idea) or b) take the risk with everyone in the airplane (also not a good idea.)

3) On takeoff tricycle gear aircraft with doors aft of the gear can kick up rocks, pebbles etc. I've lost a lens to this.

4) During an engine out on multiengine aircraft, the increase in drag during the adverse yaw can cause a loss of ability to climb or a stall.

5) It makes the odds of an unaccompanied tandem student falling out much, much higher.

>So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive.

The fact that people once jumped silk reserves does not make it a good idea to jump them today. (And the fact that even you yourself probably wouldn't jump a round silk reserve doesn't mean you have no respect for the pioneers in this sport.)


petejones45  (C License)

Aug 10, 2011, 5:27 PM
Post #58 of 78 (1024 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
In reply to:
At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

And the pioneers jumped with B-4 containers and chest mount reserves. They had to, it was not by choice.
Taking with the door open can be a big deal. Operating with the door off/open changes the allowable VNE speeds as well as maneuvering speed. Placards must be in place to indicate what these speeds are. It can affect the aircrafts ability to reach V2 and V2min. causing a safety concern on shorter runways.
To take off with the door open is just not the smart thing to do.

Sparky

At least youre consistent.

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 10, 2011, 8:17 PM
Post #59 of 78 (1002 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

You are right skydiving is a dangerous sport, why make it more so by flying with the door off or open. We learned that years ago tourist.

Sparky


The_Don  (B License)

Aug 10, 2011, 8:36 PM
Post #60 of 78 (996 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

You are right skydiving is a dangerous sport, why make it more so by flying with the door off or open. We learned that years ago tourist.

Sparky

LaughLaughLaugh


petejones45  (C License)

Aug 10, 2011, 10:51 PM
Post #61 of 78 (971 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

You are right skydiving is a dangerous sport, why make it more so by flying with the door off or open. We learned that years ago tourist.

Sparky

feel free to send all the pa's you want buddy


paulca  (Student)

Aug 11, 2011, 4:03 AM
Post #62 of 78 (945 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

From a newbie on static line, there is nothing quite like sitting beside the (lack of) door on a Cessna 206, knowing you are attached to the plane. Taking off from a full throttle + full brakes run up and clearing the trees at the end of the runway, with the plane creaking and groaning, by mere feet. Seriously there is a large tree either side that you look UP at!

No belts, 'cept your static line, worn out carpet, gaffa (duct) tape holding the plane head lining in place, etc. The plane itself is on it's second engine it's that old. 6 people on a 4 man plane.

My GF on the last jump she did, sitting in the door position, had to be grabbed by the guy behind her as the pilot decided a non coordinated 60 degree bank was appropriate! She said she really felt like she was going to fall out!

Myself sat in across from the door position hated the pilot when he got the shout, "10 to the right!" and promptly stamped on the rudder pedal to achieve this, rocking everyone around.

All part of the fun. Now for the serious question...

It was not part of our formal training, for that we were told, just listen up to the jump master, he will decide. But a qualified diver on one of our lifts, when the plane was showing signs of sick engine that day said, "700, 800ft if the engine dies I'm out, pull the reserve it opens faster."

Now I got to thinking, I'm on static line, at 800ft is it likely to deploy the main in time?

If I jump and do my emergency drill I'm certainly dead. So jump and immediate reserve and accept the fact I'm going to land with reserve and potentially a just deployed main entangled... I'll live, probably.

What would the best approach be?
(Well obviously, it IS: Listen to the jump master/dispatcher and he will decide!). but I'm curious for your opinions.


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 11, 2011, 4:19 AM
Post #63 of 78 (940 views)
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Re: [paulca] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting so seat belts are not compulsory in the UK?

Quote:
Now I got to thinking, I'm on static line, at 800ft is it likely to deploy the main in time?

Probably. Do you jump with an altimeter on your SL jumps? If so check how high you are under canopy next time you jump. My guess if you only lose 100-200 feet on a typical deployment.

I hated sitting next to the open door. By the way a 206 is a 6 seater (including the pilot).


Peterkn  (D 7417)

Aug 11, 2011, 4:51 AM
Post #64 of 78 (934 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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Interesting so seat belts are not compulsory in the UK?

The BPA operations manual says "Where parachutists restraints are fitted, they are to be used during take off and landing."


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 11, 2011, 5:31 AM
Post #65 of 78 (925 views)
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Re: [Peterkn] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
Interesting so seat belts are not compulsory in the UK?

The BPA operations manual says "Where parachutists restraints are fitted, they are to be used during take off and landing."

Thanks. It is interesting seeing the differences between the UK and US way of doing things.


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 11, 2011, 5:35 AM
Post #66 of 78 (922 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

And the pioneers jumped with B-4 containers and chest mount reserves. They had to, it was not by choice.
Taking with the door open can be a big deal. Operating with the door off/open changes the allowable VNE speeds as well as maneuvering speed. Placards must be in place to indicate what these speeds are. It can affect the aircrafts ability to reach V2 and V2min. causing a safety concern on shorter runways.
To take off with the door open is just not the smart thing to do.

Sparky

At least youre consistent.

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

Be sure to let me know when you start skydiving. I'm REAL interested in that. :-|


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 11, 2011, 6:53 AM
Post #67 of 78 (903 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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We learned that years ago, tourist.

both are good observations. Laugh

But, seriously, many newbies, as well as bucket list mid-lifers, get into the sport for their egos and, therefore, try to romanticize the "danger"Shocked image of the sport in unreasonable, naive, and sometimes really dorky ways.

They usually grow out of it or move on eventually to something else - usually because non-skydivers can be impressed if you skydive, but other skydivers aren't.

I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. Other than a disconnect from today's sport where we have really good planners and athletes that progress the sport along with idiots that are impressed with themselves and take stupid risks and pretend its eXtREme.

Compare this to the olden times when we had really good planners and athletes that progressed the sport along with idiots that are impressed with themselves and take stupid risks and pretend its eXtREme...........nevermind


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 11, 2011, 6:57 AM)


Trafficdiver  (D License)

Aug 11, 2011, 7:28 AM
Post #68 of 78 (888 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

And the pioneers jumped with B-4 containers and chest mount reserves. They had to, it was not by choice.
Taking with the door open can be a big deal. Operating with the door off/open changes the allowable VNE speeds as well as maneuvering speed. Placards must be in place to indicate what these speeds are. It can affect the aircrafts ability to reach V2 and V2min. causing a safety concern on shorter runways.
To take off with the door open is just not the smart thing to do.

Sparky

At least youre consistent.

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

Funny in your profile it says you have a Cypres 2, Why?


bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Aug 11, 2011, 10:14 AM
Post #69 of 78 (848 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

 An open door is not a major issue

I don't want to violate any copyright-so if it covers it-credit to "parachuting the skydiver's handbook" by Dan Poynter.

Here's a pic that shows that an open door can be a very big deal.......
Pics worth more than a thousand words-please take it seriously.....
Attachments: IMG.pdf (207 KB)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 11, 2011, 10:40 AM
Post #70 of 78 (839 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Good skydivers control those risks that are controllable. Shutting a door is a pretty easy one to handle. It's simple really.


Peterkn  (D 7417)

Aug 11, 2011, 11:40 AM
Post #71 of 78 (829 views)
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Re: [champu] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the seatbelts are off and the door is open on an Otter, then a pilot chute getting out the door is likely to be a problem for one person. I think by 1000ft the risk of it happening vs the odds that it can be handled by a jumper are reasonable. I'm familiar with the WFFC incident a few years back where the premature deployed into the horizontal stabilizer, but that guy climbed out and held on all the way to inflation which wouldn't happen in the case we're talking about.

If the seatbelts are on and the door is open a pilot chute getting out the door is likely to be a problem for the whole plane whether you're at 1000ft or not. The risk of it happening isn't really any greater than in the above case but the stakes are much much higher.

I disagree.

If a pilot chute goes out the door then the jumper connected to it is going to manufacture a new door opening, somewhere between the trailing edge of the existing door and the tail of the aircraft.

Not only will this severely compromise the structural integrity of the aircraft but its very likely that the control mechanisms will also be damaged in the process not great for anyone still in the aircraft, especially the poor pilot.

Dont be fooled into thinking that the jumper will be able to respond quickly enough by diving out of the door after their pilot chute if they were that switched-on then they wouldnt have gotten themselves into this situation in the first place.

Hopefully well never get see which one of us is right about this.

Pete.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 11, 2011, 12:54 PM
Post #72 of 78 (806 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
feel free to send all the pa's you want buddy

And what would that be?

Sparky


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 12, 2011, 12:58 AM
Post #73 of 78 (757 views)
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Re: [Tiddy] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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Structurally speaking, the door on Cessna's is a must. Something ridged needs to be there for airframe flex.

Then how come the FAA says the following aircraft can be operated with door off? See attachment.

Sparky
Attachments: APPENDIX 2.pdf (7.93 KB)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 12, 2011, 4:38 AM
Post #74 of 78 (735 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Although legal to fly some Cessnas door off, I wouldn't start doing high g rolling maneuvers and expect the fatigue life to be the same.

Ever taxied a C-182 etc on grass with the swing up skydiving door ajar? There's a surprising amount of flexing movement of the airframe around the door. At one DZ the rule (not always observed) was to taxi with the door closed, and I can understand why.

I don't know how tightly the door fits, but at some point it will take some of the loads, stiffening that giant hole in the structure. It's mostly the fuselage twisting sort of loads that cause the distortion, typical in ground maneuvering on uneven surfaces.

So it is "OK" to have the door open or off. But the plane isn't quite the same without.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 12, 2011, 3:17 PM
Post #75 of 78 (677 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

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So it is "OK" to have the door open or off. But the plane isn't quite the same without.

I agree with you completely. I was responding to Tiddys comment the door on Cessna's is a must. When I started jumping everything was flown without a door. But a lot of things have changed since then most for the better.

Sparky


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