Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Open door on takeoff

 

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DougH  (D License)

Aug 1, 2011, 10:34 AM
Post #26 of 78 (1754 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't like it. I also don't like video guys holding their helmets in their hand without tethers.

You can raise the issue all you want, chances are that you will be considered to be overblowing the risks and rocking the boat.

Crazy


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 1, 2011, 11:51 AM
Post #27 of 78 (1726 views)
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Re: [DougH] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't like it. I also don't like video guys holding their helmets in their hand without tethers.

You can raise the issue all you want, chances are that you will be considered to be overblowing the risks and rocking the boat.

Crazy

Ain't that just the truth of the matter. How sad.


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Aug 2, 2011, 2:30 AM
Post #28 of 78 (1650 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been a few years, but I used to jump an aircraft (BN Islander) where the rule was that the door must not be closed below 1,000 ft. The 'door' in this case was really just a glass-fibre cover - essentially unattached, but secured to the inside of the fuselage by bunjees. When not in use it would be slid up inside the aircraft towards the pilot, which always involved some awkward shuffling around.

I was never sure of the reason for the rule, but presumably it was either: being quite awkward to remove and stow away, there was a risk that it'd impede our exit in an emergency; or, that being fragile/ brittle it'd be liable to shatter and injure people if in place during an aircraft crash.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 2, 2011, 3:40 AM
Post #29 of 78 (1642 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Takeoffs with the door open make no sense. Cooling the plane off a bit during the short period of time needed to get from the ground to 1000 or 1500 feet isn't worth the risk of what would happen if a pilot chute went out the door.

I would start with the DZO or S&TA, and politely explain the possibilities when people are belted into the plane near the door with the door open.

Bottom line: seat belts on with the door open is dangerous for everyone on the plane.

...and when the DZO AND the S&TA thinks it's OK for the door open on take-off? The S&TA is one of the biggest violators. Only God knows how he got to be an S&TA.

edited to add:
OK. somebody wanted to make a political issue out of this. The statement was made in a general sense to apply to all those DZOs and S&TAs out there. I had thought the "when" indicated that. Evidently it did not.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Aug 2, 2011, 5:18 AM)


JohnRich  (D License)

Aug 2, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #30 of 78 (1594 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's been a few years, but I used to jump an aircraft (BN Islander) where the rule was that the door must not be closed below 1,000 ft. The 'door' in this case was really just a glass-fibre cover - essentially unattached, but secured to the inside of the fuselage by bunjees. When not in use it would be slid up inside the aircraft towards the pilot, which always involved some awkward shuffling around.

I was never sure of the reason for the rule, but presumably it was either: being quite awkward to remove and stow away, there was a risk that it'd impede our exit in an emergency; or, that being fragile/ brittle it'd be liable to shatter and injure people if in place during an aircraft crash.

It's probably for the emergency egress. I've been told it's even in the Cessna owner's manual (or some manual), that if you are going to have to crash land, that you should crack the door open first, so that it won't be jammed shut in the wreckage, leaving you trapped inside.

With that in mind, we have a conflict between this philosophy, and the other dangers that exist with skydiving operations and an open door...

With something like an Otter, where you have 5 egress points, even if one or two doors are jammed shut, there are still likely to be others available. So closing the jump door on that type of aircraft seems to still make sense. At least to me.

But in many places, the comfort of cool blowing air in the summer seems more important than safety.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Aug 2, 2011, 8:56 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 2, 2011, 12:42 PM
Post #31 of 78 (1547 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

"...

But in many places, the comfort of cool blowing air in the summer seems more important than safety."

.....................................................................................

If you are too dainty, delicate, prissy, sissified, etc. to sweat for an extra minute, then you are too dainty to skydive with me!


grimmie  (D 18890)

Aug 2, 2011, 1:42 PM
Post #32 of 78 (1526 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

A jumper at Perris sat down on the back bench of the Otter years ago like we all do. There's that nice big opening right behind the bench with a ledge about reserve pin height.
Yup, out flew the reserve on take off, right onto the floor next to the door.
We were at rotation.
I'm really glad the door was closed. It was summer and hot as hell.
Shut the door. All the way.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Aug 2, 2011, 3:04 PM
Post #33 of 78 (1510 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you are too dainty, delicate, prissy, sissified, etc. to sweat for an extra minute, then you are too dainty to skydive with me!

That's right peeps... HARDEN THE FUCK UP!


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 2, 2011, 3:17 PM
Post #34 of 78 (1503 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

If we can have the door closed in the f'ing Eloy heat in summer from take off till 1,500 feet, all you pussies in the rest of the world can. Tongue


rwa2468

Aug 2, 2011, 3:42 PM
Post #35 of 78 (1492 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

haha just came across this stuff the other day and liked it, relevant to your post perhaps???

http://www.htfu.com


Tiddy  (B License)

Aug 3, 2011, 10:56 PM
Post #36 of 78 (1413 views)
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Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

First post here, but I guess now is better than ever.


If the aircraft was designed without a door and has no door, than by all means, knock yourself, but if the door was removed, (any Cessna for example) I would wave'em off...

Structurally speaking, the door on Cessna's is a must. Something ridged needs to be there for airframe flex.

As far as the door popping open on take off, the dz/pilot needs to brief the procedure. I know at the DZ that I fly/jump at, I have told them that I will get around to closing the door in a timely manner. If it pops open just as you leave the ground, the last thing I need is someone in the door trying to close it. With an aft door, before anyone does anything, they should know what they are doing.

Door pops open, hand on your pilot chute, look for instruction....


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Aug 3, 2011, 11:20 PM
Post #37 of 78 (1408 views)
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Re: Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah... I don't think I have had many experiences with door open fully from take-off, but traveling and jumping I think there have been occasional instances where the door is propped open maybe 12 inches or so on take-off..

I definitely agree with a PP that I too despise/fear the partial cracking of the door on take-off- either open it or close it damn it, either allow enough room for the whole skydiver to follow the PC out if necessary, or prevent it in the first place!

At my home dz, on really hot days, they'll ask for it open right after seatbelts come off (1k)... especially if I am right near the door, I am guarding my hackey like there is no tomorrow and pretty much holding my breath and checking my alti- "okay 1100k, emergency exit go to reserve and pray I don't die... 1600, reserve and pray... 2500 okay finally okay with the main as the first shot..." and then around 3.5-4 k normal pull altitude for my main, I can breathe again, lol.

But it is fully open as opposed to partial in such situations at my home dz, so I do feel better about that- I just get anxious between 1k and my normal pull alti. I'm a nervous newbie, but yes I would rather suffer through a few more minutes of heat and wait an extra 1k feet or so after seatbelts off to open the door..

And at least it is not generally open before the seatbelts come off as the original post referenced! That is scary stuff!

Thanks for posting-- Totally valid points about needing to keep the door shut AT LEAST until seatbelts are off, perhaps a bit later, and also about leaving it either fully open or fully closed at any point.. hope all other dZs take heed! Could go very very badly if not...

blues,
R


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Aug 3, 2011, 11:39 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 4, 2011, 4:57 AM
Post #38 of 78 (1388 views)
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Re: [Tiddy] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Structurally speaking, the door on Cessna's is a must. Something ridged needs to be there for airframe flex.

Really? That explains all the Cessna 172, 180, 182, 185, 195's I see around with broken door jams & wing mounts, after all of those years flying around without door has caused all that damage......Crazy No wonder they crash!


bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Aug 4, 2011, 8:12 AM
Post #39 of 78 (1366 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah... I don't think I have had many experiences with door open fully from take-off, but traveling and jumping I think there have been occasional instances where the door is propped open maybe 12 inches or so on take-off..

I definitely agree with a PP that I too despise/fear the partial cracking of the door on take-off- either open it or close it damn it, either allow enough room for the whole skydiver to follow the PC out if necessary, or prevent it in the first place!

At my home dz, on really hot days, they'll ask for it open right after seatbelts come off (1k)... especially if I am right near the door, I am guarding my hackey like there is no tomorrow and pretty much holding my breath and checking my alti- "okay 1100k, emergency exit go to reserve and pray I don't die... 1600, reserve and pray... 2500 okay finally okay with the main as the first shot..." and then around 3.5-4 k normal pull altitude for my main, I can breathe again, lol.

But it is fully open as opposed to partial in such situations at my home dz, so I do feel better about that- I just get anxious between 1k and my normal pull alti. I'm a nervous newbie, but yes I would rather suffer through a few more minutes of heat and wait an extra 1k feet or so after seatbelts off to open the door..

And at least it is not generally open before the seatbelts come off as the original post referenced! That is scary stuff!

Thanks for posting-- Totally valid points about needing to keep the door shut AT LEAST until seatbelts are off, perhaps a bit later, and also about leaving it either fully open or fully closed at any point.. hope all other dZs take heed! Could go very very badly if not...

blues,
R

Very good to see you paying attention like that-
A little additional food for thought for you-
Any hills around the DZ that the aircraft climbs over? Then that 1000ft/1600ft etc. just became a lot less.......
Also consider any hills for your planned breakoff and pull altitudes-good example of this is in San Diego.


peek  (D 8884)

Aug 4, 2011, 8:15 AM
Post #40 of 78 (1362 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At my home dz, on really hot days, they'll ask for it [the door] open right after seatbelts come off (1k)... especially if I am right near the door, I am guarding my hackey like there is no tomorrow ...

I wish more people would be this careful. I often see people moving around, seemingly oblivious as to where their pilot chute handle is, just as soon as their seatbelt is off.

I think a lot of people assume that everything on their gear will stay put regardless of movement.

If my pilot chute handle is right by an open door, I have been known to hold onto to it until everyone in the vicinity gets situated and stops moving around.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 6, 2011, 6:09 PM
Post #41 of 78 (1286 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Structurally speaking, the door on Cessna's is a must. Something ridged needs to be there for airframe flex.

Really? That explains all the Cessna 172, 180, 182, 185, 195's I see around with broken door jams & wing mounts, after all of those years flying around without door has caused all that damage......Crazy No wonder they crash!

....................................................................................

Doors are rarely "structural components" in non-pressurized airplanes.
Doors only become structural components in pressurized (e.g. Beechcraft King Air) airplanes and large transports.
Hint: look at the number of latches and try to see if they are connected to warning lights in the cockpit.

Cessna tested most of their single-engined airplanes (120, 140, 150, 152, 170, 172 175, 180, 182, 185, 205, 206, 207, 208) "for flight with a door removed" in order to make it easier to sell them to skydiving schools.

Even so, most pressurized airplanes still have to prove that they can maintain controlled flight - with a critical door open (e.g. nose baggage door on Cessna 400 series twins) - before they can get a Type Certificate.


JackC1

Aug 7, 2011, 9:27 AM
Post #42 of 78 (1256 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

I've jumped planes with no door and for most side door aircraft, while not ideal, I'll do it if there is no alternative. But the one that really shits me up is the Antonov AN28. It's a tailgate aircraft, except there is no tailgate, just a gaping great hole in the back of the fuselage and if the fat bastards at the front don't shuffle up, there aren't enough seat belts left for the plebs at the back. That is a problem, especially when it climbs like the space shuttle. Litterally at 45 degrees straight after take off. Fuck that.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Aug 7, 2011, 3:05 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 7, 2011, 10:05 AM
Post #43 of 78 (1247 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Litterally at 45 degrees straight after take off. Fuck that.


In reply to:

Jumped an Arava with open doors, no seat belts and a slick floor years ago...YAHOOOO! Shocked

Fuck THAT is right! Sly


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 7, 2011, 11:32 AM
Post #44 of 78 (1220 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Litterally at 45 degrees straight after take off. Fuck that.


In reply to:

Jumped an Arava with open doors, no seat belts and a slick floor years ago...YAHOOOO! Shocked

Fuck THAT is right! Sly

You talking about that one that was at Elsinore back in the 70's?

Sparky


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 7, 2011, 12:06 PM
Post #45 of 78 (1215 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Re:Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Litterally at 45 degrees straight after take off. Fuck that.


In reply to:

Jumped an Arava with open doors, no seat belts and a slick floor years ago...YAHOOOO! Shocked

Fuck THAT is right! Sly

You talking about that one that was at Elsinore back in the 70's?

Sparky

That one and the newer one that was in Sandyeggo in the 80's...I also jumped a newly configured DC-3 turbine once. I bet my fingernail gouges from sliding around during take-off are still in the floor! Sly


CMiller  (B 30864)

Aug 7, 2011, 12:46 PM
Post #46 of 78 (1207 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

To update, and so everybody is clear, it turns out this is NOT actually acceptable at the DZ. The S&TA was notified, and reminders were made to everybody not to open the door before 1000 feet. Thanks for giving me advice Champuu.


tsurfer69  (D 12523)

Aug 9, 2011, 9:07 AM
Post #47 of 78 (1096 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

besides the pc or bagged canopy out the door issue, shropshire hit the nail on the head. if the right engine quits on a twin otter, the yaw movement causes the door to become a big air scoop and may prevent the aircraft from climbing. on other aircraft, a canopy over the tail or inflating while still belted to the plane, will surely end bad for everyone on board


Gato  (C License)

Aug 10, 2011, 8:05 AM
Post #48 of 78 (1037 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

We're currently making use of a U206 with a right-side cargo door. The door itself is a roll-up cordura and vinyl panel that velcros to the sides and floor.

The first few times I had to take the door position, it didn't bother me at all, because it was colder at the beginning of the season. When it got warm, and people asked me to open the door at 1k, I was juuuust a bit hesitant. No one had to tell me, "Make sure your seatbelt is off!!" - if things go to shit, you can be assured I will NOT be in your way, and if I am, MOVE ME. Anyway, I'm still not willing to roll it all the way up. I'll check my handles, and then roll it up to about a foot off the floor, resting my left knee against it, and that seems to cool things off just fine.

The partial roll of door also serves as a mighty fine armrest. Wink

One thing about sitting in the door position (if it's open on the way to altitude,) I don't think it's a good idea to do the helmet-on-the-chest strap thing - you pretty much have to be ready to launch out the door from 1000' up. Just my opinion. It does make me wonder if we should do what we make students do: Put everything on, and leave it on. Sorry, getting off topic, now.

One other thing no one's mentioned yet: If the door's open on the way to altitude, you're robbed of the privilege of yelling, "Door!"


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Aug 10, 2011, 8:56 AM
Post #49 of 78 (1016 views)
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Re: [Gato] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

One other thing no one's mentioned yet: If the door's open on the way to altitude, you're robbed of the privilege of yelling, "Door!"

I've jumped at 25+ dropzones and I don't think I can ever recall a place where the door was not re-closed at some point prior to jump run; usually between 5,000 and 8,000 feet depending on how hot it is. This allows for everyone to safely do handle checks, for the TIs to safely hook up their students, for people to move around getting in position and putting up benches, without the added risk of something getting bumped during that process with an open door.

So you can still yell "DOOR!" LaughCool


JohanW  (D 86318)

Aug 10, 2011, 9:01 AM
Post #50 of 78 (1014 views)
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Re: [Gato] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

If I have my helmet anywhere but on my head, I can still exit, with or without it. Might have to do it with my eyes closed, because I have contact lenses and a full-face helmet with a visor, but I can do that as well and am prepared to do it. Heck, a friend of mine always has her eyes closed for the first few seconds out of the plane.

But for initial climb and whenever the door is open, I almost always have it on my head. (OK, so I'm not perfect.)


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