Jul 19, 2011, 7:27 AM
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Re: Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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(more to think about) It looks like the riser covers did not release until the Instructor grabbed the risers. If the instructor went straight to the cutaway handle, there is a chance that the main would not have left.
Probably a good time to check the main pilot chute, lines and possibly packers techniques also.
Jul 19, 2011, 7:46 AM
Post #28 of 60
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Re: [divnswoop] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Yes. Good point. I've been having an off-line discussion about that very same thing.
Given the altitude all this happened, I would have hoped that the RSJM would have attempted to clear the risers before pulling the reserve handle. Whew! It gets more and more complicated doesn't it?
AFF- box of chocolates.
As an aside, I want to add:
It was mentioned by someone here and I'll pass it on to you guys who think that dumping a reserve into a bag lock was a good idea....
- What would you be saying had this turned out to be a fatality under a main/reserve entanglement?
Jul 19, 2011, 7:58 AM
Post #29 of 60
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Quote:
It was mentioned by someone here and I'll pass it on to you guys who think that dumping a reserve into a bag lock was a good idea....
- What would you be saying had this turned out to be a fatality under a main/reserve entanglement?
I'd be wondering what an alternative would be.
As previously stated, the riser covers were closed, so the cutaway would have been of little use. Actually, all it would have done was to allow the main/bag to leave anytime it wanted, including during the reserve deployment, which would not be my first choice.
The mal won't leave on it's own. like a PC in tow, or a bag lock such as this one, I would rather keep it attached until I had a reason (and a method) for getting rid of it. Pulling the cutaway and stripping the risers from the 3 rings isn't a possiblity during a terminal velocity malfunction.
I would much prefer any variation of two-out over an entanglement between a cut away mal and my reserve. The two-outs can be managed (as shown by this incident) the cutaway main/reserve entanglement cannot.
Jul 19, 2011, 11:13 AM
Post #30 of 60
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Re: [davelepka] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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If you're going to leave the plane as an instructor, be ready to see it through to the end. In this country, that's the D licesne minimum pack opening altitude of 2k.
Well then lets just say that I would not pull someone else's handles out of order when they have been trained in emergency procedures. If you don't believe your AFF students are capable of handling a high speed mal why let them in the plane in the first place?
Jul 19, 2011, 11:36 AM
Post #31 of 60
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Re: [davelepka] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Dave's introduction of the riser cover issue complicates everything (if you believe it is an issue), as it gets away from the standard skydiving procedures of "pull cutaway, pull reserve".
It adds the complicating factor that a cutaway may not cut away the main, for low drag mals with tight riser covers. That's not part of the most common procedures, although occasionally it does get mentioned. (e.g, sweeping away risers after cutaway, before reserve pull)
But if it is bad to omit that step, then (at the simplest level) it would be bad to have an SOS or even an RSL (which may or may not activate the reserve depending on exactly what the risers are doing).
Normally you don't dump a reserve into a bag lock, but the one argument brought forward suggests that that's still better than trying to cut away if the riser covers haven't yet released.
I'm not convinced. But the riser cover thing is interesting. If one thinks it is a hazard, then it would be a risk that one can't protect students from, if existing procedures are used, and there are no changes to gear.
(I wonder if when there's a bag lock, simply adopting a vertical body position to examine the main, would normally clear the risers from covers.)
Jul 19, 2011, 12:49 PM
Post #32 of 60
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Re: [pchapman] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Even more to ponder:
Another rigger just PM'd me about checking the video frame by frame, and I found some interesting stuff that he started to notice too.
The student isn't pulled away from the instructor by the reserve.
It seems that the MAIN CANOPY CLEARED ITS BAG, the student is pulled upright, THEN the reserve pilot chute passes the snivelling main, and pulls the freebag with it.
Now that's getting even more sporty!
My attachment shows a sequence of cropped screen grabs showing the reserve going by the main.
(In part 4 of the photo, something large falls off the student & rig, that can also be seen in the video. What the hell??)
Edit: And that reserve PC launch was messy. It looks like it just sat on the rig at first, and even flopped onto the student's left arm, before clearing while out of sight of the camera, but only probably a fraction of a second later. I know full well that spring loaded PC's can dance around, and it always looks worse in slow motion, but, yuk!
(This post was edited by pchapman on Jul 19, 2011, 1:03 PM)
Jul 19, 2011, 2:09 PM
Post #33 of 60
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Re: [davelepka] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Pulling the cutaway and stripping the risers from the 3 rings isn't a possiblity during a terminal velocity malfunction.
Differing opinions....OK
In reply to:
I would much prefer any variation of two-out over an entanglement between a cut away mal and my reserve.
WoooHoooo! Wouldn't we all!
Imagine, instead of a student with a capable AFFI with him, that this happened to you at pull time. You don't rotate, you look back to see a bag dancing in the sky...what do you do? a) deploy reserve b)cutaway and deploy reserve c) check to see if your riser covers released - if no, deploy reserve - if yes, cutaway and deploy reserve
Me? I'd cutaway while verifying altitude and if my risers didn't leave, I'd be fighting to get them off and if I couldn't get it done before hard deck, I'd have no other option but to deploy the reserve and hope for the best.
If they did leave, then I'd deploy the reserve. Not a lot of rocket surgery involved.
Have we beat this dead horse enough yet? Again, Differing opinions....OK. I'm not trying to change your mind, Dave. Everybody has to do what's best for them.
(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jul 19, 2011, 2:17 PM)
Jul 19, 2011, 4:10 PM
Post #35 of 60
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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...something large falls off the student & rig, that can also be seen in the video. What the hell??)
Could that be the freebag falling away do you think? In the frame by frame it really is something else. Attached is a zip file with a bunch of images frame by frame or close to it. (Just squeezed it into the 300k limit.)
If you have an image viewer where you can go forward and back quickly between shots, you get a little movie in effect, which helps to see what's happening.
(All this is from a low quality youtube video, and not whatever high quality it was originally shot in. Sorry to everyone at that DZ for picking this incident apart, but it brings up a lot of interesting issues!)
Jul 19, 2011, 7:59 PM
Post #37 of 60
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Re: [pchapman] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Quote:
If you have an image viewer where you can go forward and back quickly between shots, you get a little movie in effect, which helps to see what's happening.
It's either the main bag or PC swinging around behind the jumper as the reserve deploys. That swinging (if it was the bag) is probably what finally shook the bag lock loose and allowed the main to deploy beside the reserve.
Jul 19, 2011, 8:50 PM
Post #38 of 60
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Re: [davelepka] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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I know this was a student and all, but dont you guys think there is a distinct possibility that IF the RS AFFI had released the student that he would have done his EPs from the realization that he had thrown his PC and nothing was happening? I have seen it opined on here that he wasnt going to follow his EPs but he may not have realized anything was wrong yet as his Instructor was still on the reserve side. AND, as it was his first jump, he may have just needed a second or two to "get" that something was not right - thats one of the reasons that AFF students deploy so high, correct? Its a crapshoot I suppose - I have seen (on video, I'm not an instructor) and heard of 1st jump students chopping good canopies, following their EPs to the letter in low and high speed mals, and freezing up. This guy seemed like he was pretty heads up when all was said and done though...
Jul 19, 2011, 10:24 PM
Post #40 of 60
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Re: [crotalus01] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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I know this was a student and all, but dont you guys think there is a distinct possibility that IF the RS AFFI had released the student that he would have done his EPs from the realization that he had thrown his PC and nothing was happening?.
Yes, it's a possibility. Same as everything is a possibility.
I don't know of an AFFI in the world who would have done that though.
Jul 20, 2011, 6:30 AM
Post #42 of 60
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Finally, what is the normal procedure for bag lock?
Pops, Was it truely a baglock would be my question?
It looks to me like a half-cocked pilot chute (or some other problem with the P/C) that did not have enough force to unstow the riser covers or the rubber bands was the original issue here.The baglock was just a by-product of the original issue.
If that is the case and a cutaway did in fact happen just before the reserve deployment, the RSL could have caused issues during the reserve deployment by possibly hanging up or snagging on something.
Just something else to consider.
Also, the use of kill-line pilot chutes (if this was in fact a kill-line P/C) for students is yet another.
Jul 20, 2011, 7:42 AM
Post #43 of 60
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Re: [masterrigger1] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Finally, what is the normal procedure for bag lock?
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Pops, Was it truely a baglock would be my question?
It looks to me like a half-cocked pilot chute (or some other problem with the P/C) that did not have enough force to unstow the riser covers or the rubber bands was the original issue here.The baglock was just a by-product of the original issue.
Yes, yes, I agree with all of that now. It could have been other than bag lock as the root cause. The symptoms were the same.....PC out, bag out, no canopy extraction.
I'm just looking at it from a jumper point-of-view.
Monday morning quarterbacking, having seen the videos and all, we can analyze and see other possibilities but to a jumper, at the time of the happening, all appearances woulds be saying Bag Lock, IMHO.
In reply to:
Also, the use of kill-line pilot chutes (if this was in fact a kill-line P/C) for students is yet another.
I could agree with that, too. However, it appeared to me that the PC was fully inflated.
Side note: Geez...it's nice, very nice (and different, too!) to have a good discussion as opposed to heated arguments as is so common in here. It just depends on who one is talking to doesn't it?
Jul 20, 2011, 12:50 PM
Post #44 of 60
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Popsjumper, you say that you would, in this videoed scenario, cut away the main then deploy the reserve for the student. Correct? Assuming this, I have a question for you.
Have you actually done this? Have you, while on an AFF Cat A (no pressure there), made the choice and acted on it, in a timely fashion (sometimes easier said than done) while in malfunction mode, at the bottom end of the skydive (no pressure there either) that has turned to shit (really, really no pressure there) and the clock is tick-tock-tick-tock ticking away, cut away a student’s canopy while the bag and lines were bouncing 1.5 feet from you and banging on the students head ? If you have, and you’ve made these statements based on experience and previous performance, you’re one steely eyed, ice for blood, bad ass AFF Instructor. You’re the type of AFF I that I strive to be and I humbly apologize for what I’m going to say next.
I believe you are full of hooey and just talkin’ on the internet.
Here are a couple of different scenarios that I’ve thought about in regards to this.
Scenario #1 Student pulls, main side hauls ass, deployment bag is bouncing away on the student and I’m going to go cut that shit away. How am I going to do that? For starters, I know that I’m going to need to be super close and tight with the student. Usually, not a problem, I like to keep nice and tight on my students. However, with that bag and lines doing the tango on my student, I’m going to keep my distance and only be as close as I have to be. I can’t quite figure out how you intend on getting the reserve handle without getting your head super close to that mess bouncing around. Let’s say that you are going at it blindly. Head up high, left arm reaching around and trying to find the cutaway handle. You know sure as shit that when you’re about to get the handle that bag will bounce around, wrap those lines around your neck and that sonofabitch PC will decide to work. No more Pops. I know this scenario is a little bit of a stretch (no pun intended), but we all know predictable AFF is.
Senerio #2 Student pulls, main side hauls ass, deployment bag is bouncing away on the student and I’m going to go cut that shit away. How am I going to do that? We already talked about the high road and the potential problems with that. I guess the other option is the low road. I go low on the student, still have the harness with my right hand, looking under the student and reaching for the cutaway handle. Things are looking up; I can see the handle this time. Then, my student freaks out because of my position in relation to him, puts his feet on his ass, backslides away from me, flips over and decides to go back flying for a while. There I am, with one freaking grip on this guy, trying to control a situation that is beyond repair. While I’m doing that, he and I just became one big steaming pile of horseshoe malfunction. How in the world did I end up here? I put myself in a place that I should not have been given the situation.
I'm going to get some nylon over this kids head, track like a bitch to give him some room, and do it with enough time for him to deal with whatever malfunction decides to show up. Is it possible for him to have an entanglement? Yessir, sure could happen, and I would feel bad for him.
I believe the AFF Instructor did the correct thing in this situation. Props to him.
Jul 20, 2011, 1:51 PM
Post #45 of 60
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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THIS is what worries me:
I certainly appreciate you taking the worst possible spin on my commitment, Andy
here's an example from the cert course - "Hey, Bill. Do you want to know what he did to me on that last jump in case he does it to you?" my response "no, I'll take what he throws at me and deal with whatever it is"
AFF certainly is a box of chocolates. Not musing on specifically defined scenarios doesn't equal not thinking about how to take care of my student.
I'd rather spend time looking at the logbook and observing the training of my student and planning for what appears most likely to happen. Random scenarios are great for forum discussions and learning there.
Jul 20, 2011, 5:20 PM
Post #46 of 60
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Re: [clintster] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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Popsjumper, you say that you would, in this videoed scenario, cut away the main then deploy the reserve for the student. Correct?
Correct
In reply to:
Have you actually done this?
No. Fortunately, PCIT, PC hesitations, and bag locks have all been cleared without having to resort to pulling EP handles....so far.
In reply to:
I humbly apologize for what I’m going to say next.
No need to apologize
In reply to:
I believe you are full of hooey and just talkin’ on the internet.
That's OK. I think I mentioned before that it is what I have trained myself to do if the situation arises. If it does arise, I will do what I have trained for.
In reply to:
Scenario #1 Student pulls, main side hauls ass, deployment bag is bouncing away on the student and I’m going to go cut that shit away. How am I going to do that? For starters, I know that I’m going to need to be super close and tight with the student.
As well you should be.
In reply to:
I can’t quite figure out how you intend on getting the reserve handle without getting your head super close to that mess bouncing around.
The mess is above, my head is either in his rib cage or below. No need to get your head any closer than the ribs...your arms are longer than that....I hope.
I agree with what you are saying though. If one can't reach the cutaway without getting your head caught up in that mess floating above, then it would be best to stay away from it...Can't argue that point and I wouldn't want to. In that case there would be no other viable option than simply pulling the reserve and hoping for the best.
In reply to:
Let’s say that you are going at it blindly.
Wow! Let's hope not! In that case, all bets are off!
In reply to:
Senerio #2 ...I go low on the student, still have the harness with my right hand, looking under the student and reaching for the cutaway handle. Things are looking up; I can see the handle this time. Then, my student freaks out because of my position in relation to him, puts his feet on his ass, backslides away from me, flips over and decides to go back flying for a while. There I am, with one freaking grip on this guy, trying to control a situation that is beyond repair. I put myself in a place that I should not have been given the situation.
Well, if one lets it get out of hand and lets it get beyond repair and lets himself get entangled in that mess, he messed up. Now two people die. Pretty simple. Let's hope that never happens, right? I think you know already that there comes a point in time where it's either 1 or 2 people die...we have a choice to make and I think we all know what that choice would be.
In reply to:
I believe the AFF Instructor did the correct thing in this situation. Props to him.
All's well that ends well. I'll review my posts here and if I said somewhere that he was wrong, I'll come back and edit.
EDIT: In one post I said..."It was mentioned by someone here and I'll pass it on to you guys who think that dumping a reserve into a bag lock was a good idea....
- What would you be saying had this turned out to be a fatality under a main/reserve entanglement? "
I'll stand by that and say dumping a reserve into a bag lock is never a good idea and qualify it by saying, "...up to the point of no return where there is no other option."
This AFFI obviously, in my mind, may have had no other option and did what he had to do. Sometimes that happens, eh?
In reply to:
With Respect,
Clint Cappelle
Thanks for your post, Clint.
Yes, there are options. What happened in the video was one option. Pulling the cutaway first is another. I don't think you are saying that pulling the cutaway first is a wrong option. I don't think you are saying pulling the reserve is the only option...I would argue that if you were.
I will say this...There are many "what ifs" out there and you obviously know that. Every situation is different and every situation could devolve into something much worse that what got started. I would handle what is happening NOW and deal with what happens after that. I'd be very reluctant to shy away from what's happening NOW just because it MAY devolve into something worse later.
Let's give props to ALL AFFIs who have put their butts on the line for students.
(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jul 20, 2011, 5:42 PM)
Jul 20, 2011, 5:49 PM
Post #47 of 60
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Re: Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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I have seen a reserve side JM pull the students cutaway while he was having a high speed malfunction. The student was sitting more upright with a *real* bag lock from what I remember. It released clean and the RSL pulled the reserve...It actually happened at the same dropzone as this incident.
Jul 20, 2011, 6:00 PM
Post #49 of 60
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Re: [rehmwa] Instructors. Is this what you would do?
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THIS is what worries me:
In reply to:
I certainly appreciate you taking the worst possible spin on my commitment, Andy
??? I'm lost here. I searched and searched this thread and couldn't find where I said that to you. Could you have gotten it from a different thread? Was my post deleted? Maybe you replied to me by mistake?
I seem to remember making that comment somewhere but believe me, it was not directed at you personally...it was meant in a general sense as applicable to everyone.
I could be wrong but I don't think so.
It's not often that I hammer a particular person but it has happened...especially college students who puke their instructors' brainwashing as though it was truth.
My apologies if I came across as having poked you.
aff.jpg
AFF baglock opening captures.zip
