There's no way you can compare this to any form of tracking.
Sure I can. Just as Squeak did above:
No one is disputing that ANY jump where you are translating across the sky/ground is a tracking jump. (You are after all tracking a path through the sky)
Yes they are all moving ACROSS the ground so they are all Tracking
I think you should re-read my previous post, here is a snip:
I'm not disputing that there are some small differences from the flattest of possible track dives and the steepest of possible track dives, but it is certainly not different enough for the need to develop new licenses or instructor certifications. Come on now, tracking relative at a bit of a steeper angle with your mates certainly does not "revolutionize the concept of skydiving".
Nowhere am I saying that you shouldn't do it, or that it isn't a ton of fun, nor am I saying that Babylon aren't talented flyers in any flying that they do. I do quite a few angle dives every year. I've done some pretty intense ones at Summerfest. I have had freefly coach students I have taught angle flying to and have led several angle dives at several dzs. Some flatter and some much steeper, and some changing direction and pitch. I am not saying that it is the exact same as a flat track. What I won't do is buy into the notion that steep tracking or flocking or flackmonacing, or whatever you intend on calling angle dives, is a revolutionary transcendence of freeflying and a whole new discipline that is not "adopted" by the US because it's new or different than what has already been being done for a long time. I personally don't buy it. But you can if you'd like. Like I said, different strokes for different folks. Not sure where the conflict is.
So to answer your question, I see lots of tracking all over the video. Tracking/Flocking at steep angles as well as shallower ones like at 1:25. Just because they change leaders or directions or angles does not mean they are not tracking a path through the sky. But I agree, I did not see a spoon
What do you think Tim in your years of freeflying? Is the concept of steep angles/flocks something you've never seen or heard of before? Is this above and beyond the definition of freeflying? Do these dives "revolutionize the concept of skydiving"?
(This post was edited by SimonBones on Jun 22, 2011, 3:40 PM)
Back in dz.com after long time… I see that the eternal discussion still goes on , with usual sarcastic people, but with a lot more people have really clear the true . I really don’t want follow you in this discussion but for the correct of the information for the people that read , I just want to say again few things : You can’t change history ! Atmonauti was presented in 2000 and before was existing only traditional tracking and the freefly was 99,9% vertical stuff and a bit of flock ( still hi vertical speed) ! I remind that tracking was only flat, with a “rabbit” on the back and people following on their belly from behind, using rw technique to make the regulation, atmonauti introduced a new set up with head level and with the people flying on their front flying forward completely opposite of traditional track, with a new body position allowing the air to hit from the head and the possibility to have the body more relax and open a new variety of games. Who have try in the past to say that Atmonauti was nothing new , NEVER demonstrate this words with easy fact as videos, pictures , articles etc … just word … just nothing . At reverse we are full of historic documents , pictures, articles and videos (at disposition to everybody that wants ) , where you can see all the big names of freefly who track in the traditional way … very far away from what they are doing now . The question is : why all this guys ( all the best flyer in the world of that time ) have modify their way to track only after 2000 ??? May be they have learn a new technique after 2000 ? And I tell you more : Atmonauti was not just new , but also a real revolution respect what was existing before , so much to influence later also other discipline as the base jump and the wing suit …. Check the video of this disciplines before and after 2000 … you will see clear differences ! You guys are not very well informed about the fact Atmonauti is not just a funny name : In 2003 Atmonauti enter in FAI rules as new orientation !!! … and was also one of the compulsory move of freeflying and freestyle World competiton …. In 2009 The Atmonauti discipline is enter in the South Africa federation rules and in the Nationals competitions along with rw and freefly …. Actually other federation are evaluating the same thing ….. Austalian flyers in 2010 run an Atmonauti World Record attempt with FAI judges for the first time …… You are not also very informed about the huge variety of speeds and angles that since 2000 we have perform in all the thousands of flights done around the world : a part the Atmoanuti formations in contact and no contact , a part the Atmonauti relative work in two and in four way , the Airshows with smoke very fast , In 1999 we have fly side to the airplane from the exit to break-off with the Atmonauti technique in a very high horizontal speed , completely new free style and free-fly performed in World competitions from 2000 to 2003 with big variety of speeds , angles , and body shapes with also many complex maneuvers in it ; tandem atmonauti every time different in speeds and angles , atmonauti feet first more steeper , flight with big curves with change of speeds and angles …. For who want to verify can find all this videos and pictures on www.atmonauti.com . Is right to inform , especially the young skydiver , that things as “tracking” complex dock formations , feet first , tandem without drog slower than 200 km/h, or again fly side by side with the airplane with total and perfect control very fast horizontally , was just considerate IMPOSSIBLE !!! With the new revolutionary Atmonauti technique , all this was become possible …. Just facts ! If You want to give tips to the people I think is correct to know the things a bit better ….. Regarding Filippo Fabbi that you say, is just one of the numerous person up-indicate that have start to use this technique later that 2000 but incorrectly calling with different name … watch Willing to Fly (Norman Kent vieo) , you will see Fabbi track in a super traditional way … History is important if you want to make correct information . I’m full of material , at disposition to everybody , where we can see all this peoples now using the new thecnique Atmonauti and calling with different names ,who were tracking in the really traditional way …. A lot of world magazines , videos , boogies , pictures , skydiving advertising , skydiving book …. easy
Thousands of peoples in the world know exactly the difference between atmonauti and tracking … thousands know that Atmonauti is not just one speed and one angle , they have watch many time the videos with all the varaiety of speed and angles performed since 2000 ; thousands of people they was jumping before 2000 and they know perfectly what was tracking and freefly before 2000 ; even federations are evaluating the positivity of this new discipline , some have already done ; thousands of people don’t believe any more who say that atmonauti is just tracking … thousands of people verify the information and immediately understand where is the true ! Is just a question of time but always more and more peoples will discover the huge potentiality of the technique Atmonauti , especially the more younger and inexperienced skydiver , learning fast a technique that permit them to fly in the real meaning of the word , create real LIFT ( never existing in skydiving before Atmonauti) , in all the speeds and angles , with total control for playing free or docs and relative work …. And without expensive 1-o-1 . All the our guys here when they have 300 jumps , they will fly atmonauti in front and back and easy keep and control the basic of the head down …. with ZERO one-o-one !!!! … Just Atmonauti done in the correct and complete way , starting to play with the group from the beginning , with detailed breafing and debreafing ! This is the reality that all this guys enjoy every days, and that become more and more stronger around the world . In these places the process is really start and actually very difficult to be stopped …more easy than other will see that the system works and adopt it …. You can do what you want and I really don’t care , but hide all this to young skydiver is a really bad operation for the sport and for sure don’t help their progression …. I think when they will realize this , they will be not so happy . Personally I think that who do this , write clearly his name in history in the list of the person that have try to slow down this amazing process of evolution of humanity : The Real Human Fly easy and accessible to everybody. I really don’t know if you will be able to change all this ….. good luck and all the best. Ciao
I like atmo it's a very interesting discipline, I'm just learning to fly between the flat track and head down position, when you get it right the air flows down your body head to feet instead of hitting your front, it feels quite different. As a starter I'm working on staying stable at speed and putting my arms out / knees down to slow down. My track could still use some work.. a classic track and the atmo position are definately not the same thing. Although I have seen people appearing to make decent headway on an angle dive.. but I think it's just due to the increased speed. I don't know if it's right but my pro-track has been saying 140mph on the angle?
What!!! Insane Clown Posse you are. No spoon and no tracking!
I loved the video, The tight tracking formations were bad ass. Ok folks, did you notice that the positions were not froggy? They were tracking positions.
I'm ok with people calling it whatever they want. We flocked, we tracked and even made formations before 2000, it eventually was given a name and more people got good at it. We (the general we) all got better at pretty much everything in the last decade.
I really like the leader switching dive. That looked pretty tight. I wish they showed a longer version of that to see how they set it up and how long they could continue.
With the aim to try to be positive and concrete in the debate , and hoping that this can help mchamp’s request , here some considerations for clarify some points that I consider very important specially for who have less experience :
1) Is important to define the different things with their correct definitions , especially when they are so different to involve different physic effects : a. “Resistence” physic effect for the TRACKING always exist and teach from the AFF ; b. “Lift” physic effect for the ATMONAUTI . This first of all to avoid confusion . Who have tried , know exactly the airflow on the body is different , the sensation is different and last but not least the technique to move and regulate is completely different …. So why call this two different things with the same TRACKING definition ? Confusion don’t help the beginners that try to understand how the things work.
2) Another important consideration remarking the importance to correct define the different things , regard the safety in matter of “directions” . Since it has been taught in the AFF, and in the normal tracking jumps that have always been done , the track is performed looking in front in the direction towards you are going! In the atmonauti fly , flying in front, the body assume an angle of attack with the head placed towards the ground and the visual looking backwards. This creates a prospective of the visual that is upside down (sky down and earth up) and a vision of the field exactly OPPOSITE of the direction where we are going. And more angles of asset we assume, more opposite and far will be in prospective the visual of the ground . This condition, especially for the beginners, can create a bit of difficulties on orienteering, in particular if you are not informed on this problematic, and if you don’t take other visual points of reference in order to guarantee the respect of the direction. Is important to remember the dangers of groups that can involuntary change flight trajectories towards other group. Is for this reason that we are particularly sensible to do not mix track with the atmonauti. Encourage people to be more efficient by adding “angles” and with the head that watch behind (and who doesn’t want to be more efficient), saying that this technique is tracking, and without saying as the first thing “be careful to the visual of the opposite verse in which you are going”, is really incorrect and create a potential condition of danger. To confuse the track with atmonauti without emphasize this fundamental aspect is a mistake for which one should take the responsibility of a confuse and incomplete information!
3) Learn the Atmonauti Technique from the start allows to play in groups since the beginning learning fast the REAL FLY in many orientation ( front , back etc.) , in different angles , speeds and directions …. The consequence of this correct progression is to know automatically how to keep and control the head down ! But also acquire a very good sensibility in the element precious for any kind of other “freefall” disciplines , “Fly with wing suit” discipline , and of course base jump discipline.
4) Actually Atmonauti is a lot more easy than Freefly so that for the beginners is more easy to learn and start play in the groups since the beginning. From the point of view of the logic , I think is more indicate an “easier” thing for a beginners instead the more “difficult” one …. Especially if in automatic arrive also that one more hard ….
5) Somebody try to limit Atmonauti saying it is just one speed or one angle … do not believe them ! so to avoid confusion about the positions, I rember that Atmonauti is not just one angle, or just one speed , or just one fixed body position (Check also the Atmonauti videos on the net , you will see a big variety of this parameters). Is one complete new technique for use the body as a wing obtain lift and perform a real fly . Positions speed and angles can be very various . But images can make it clear better than words , so in the first attach some example of this varaiety of positions perform from 1998 when was existing only the traditional track visible in the second attach take from some magazine and videos of beginning 2000 …. Necessary to compared to understand what we are talking and also to remaining on the facts.
6) The system imply also that in every atmo flight, there is a “navigator”, a person who is responsible to keep the flight plan, respects the directions planned, linear or not, set the angle or the angles of flight, regulate the speed. He is responsible for all the group and is primarily in charge to set these parameters, and above all to be concentrate to respect the direction. No matter if the group is of two or twenty people, there is always a person with this duty and responsibility.
7) The atmonauti Fly as we know, has many variation and have many different typologies of performances and games, from freestyle to formations, atmo games (Race, ARW, etc), Airshow with smoke … In all these circumstances it’s fundamental the issue of the direction. But is in the smaller group with acrobatic atmo games of freestyle and freefly, or in ARW2 or ARW4 (atmo relative work), that is more important to pay attention to the direction. In effect being more focused in the performance is easier to distract and change direction without realize, especially in the first training jumps. Try always to keep in mind this factor. With experience and constant attention on this particular, the precision of the navigation will be always more fine, until arrive to be more and more an automatism.
Other consideration regarding exit order : - exit as a first group with a short in spot: only if the navigator is expert and can guarantee safely the direction, after the exit the trajectory of the direction will be opened with a minimum of 45° (right or left) respect the axe of dropping. Is not admitted an involuntary change of direction towards the axe of dropping of the other vertical groups.
- Exit as the last group: is the more safety condition, especially to start with and when you don’t have much experience yet. After the exit make a 90° (right or left) and through the dive, make another 90° in the same direction .
- Exit as an intermediate group: make a clear 90° (right or left) right after the exit respect the axe of dropping. If during the flight you go away too much respect the dz, make and ulterior 90° (right or left).
And again : Is important to have a previous briefing with the plane pilot, in order to know the daily axe of dropping in relation of altitude winds/dropzone policy and to be informed if this will be changed. In any case the visual contact with the ground is the primary condition to respect the flight plan, and the support of the gps can add useful information to manage the flight.
If for any reason during the flight you find yourself with a lot of distance in relation of the landing area, open the canopy at higher altitudes (normally can be enough 1000 ft or less , than normal ) in order to be able to come back or anyway have more time to evaluate alternative safety landing areas .
Valuation of the wind on the ground, in order to calculate the more indicate place where to be with the canopy open and be able to get back easily to the landing area. If other groups are making navigations, coordinate the different directions taking into consideration also the direction and intensity of the wind from open canopy till the landing,bI mean ground coordination with the other group before get on the plane : “flight plan”!
Valuation of the visibility with the ground to decide, on the base of the navigator’s experience, if the parameters of the direction can be respected safely.
To know the ground conformation and have points of references in the various cardinal points, as an aid to the navigation, keeping into consideration that the visuals of the navigator is opposite to the sense of flight.
Check at open canopy and debriefing (also with the analysis of the gps traces), on the effective respect of the flight plan, finding the factors that can be make the navigation better and always more precise.
Is important to focus on few particulars as: use of head and torso for the movements, legs and arms to regulate the speed. If you fly in group is important to understand to fly at head level, this will help you to fly in the correct body position. Start with front first and try to remain on top of the formation, use the base as a point of reference to practice your movements and always remain in visual contact.
Anyone that has any doubt or questions to make on these topic, is welcome for more explanations. Have fun with atmosphere navigations.
(This post was edited by skymama on Jun 26, 2011, 6:10 AM)
don't use the word "LIFT" it implies that you are gaining alti. when really you are just slowing down. also just because you write long replies doesn't make you right. now go jump and a slow down compared to who you're jumping with.
That is some seriously tight angle flying, changing the leader like that and remaining so tight is simply amazing...
Thanks for sharing.
To the atmo nay sayers, if you don't like the tv show, change the channel.
freedom of choice and all that...
go do a tracking jump or something...
I was kidding. I am not disagreeing with Simon .The flying in that videos is great but I see plenty of tracking. There are plenty of tracking positions including all of them in the 2 attachments.. Call it anything you want to because TFS just isn't good enough. (Tracking formation skydiving)
Not that stupid, completely senseless diagram again!
It shows a zero angle of attack, claiming that you can get enough lift (even though they aren't making the shape with their body that would make lift, and they are at a zero angle of attack) that the relative wind will be in the same direction as your body is pointed, that you will be travelling in that same direction that you are pointed! Do you really believe that? Even the group of pics of people supposedly doing atmowhatever clearly show that not to be the case, but the diagram persists...
You need not wonder why atmowhatever is ridiculed when they continue to make such stupid claims.
I'm sure it is fun, and is a lot more involved than a simple tracking dive, but you aren't travelling with the wind going as indicated.
If there are two type of skydive vertical being head down and up and flat being bellyfly and backflying. All those diagram or picture showes moving vertical formation, if you put average sized belly flyer into one of these dive, they will never be able to keep up with the group, no matter how legit belly flyer they are, unless they can fly on their head.
And yeah, you present more surface area to move you create lift, or more drag whatever you wanna call it, slowing you down compare to being completely vertical falling straight down. No shit, human body alone won't crwate lift to land own its own, That is Jeb Coriss's job to figure that out
Hey guys, from someone who's experienced first hand the cult like sillyness of the atmo crew a word of advice
1- Its almost a religion, arguing on a fact and scientific basis doesnt really have any effect upon them
2- It just gives them a forum to talk more pseudo scientific overly passionate dribble
If you don't like the agenda, just ignore them. Its like celebrities or fashionable causes. If you dont talk about them and allow them to dominate the agenda then they disappear. Talking about them makes them seem of real significance.
Just ignore them, they're comfortably confined to obscurity in a small corner of the world...
Not too dissimilar to discussing Sarah Pallin or Scientology. The crazy followers don't really want to debate or listen to what you say.
(This post was edited by fedykin on Jun 27, 2011, 5:32 AM)