Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Freeflying:
Angle Flying/Atmonauti

 


mchamp  (D 32129)

Jun 13, 2011, 2:28 PM
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Angle Flying/Atmonauti Can't Post

Anyone have any advice as to how to progress to this style?

I've heard multiple answers some saying you must be rather proficient in Head Down to be able to maintain this type of flying while others have stated that they advanced within this type of flying prior to being proficient in Head Down.

Secondly...how come it seems as if this type of flying style has yet to be adopted/become a larger discipline within the United States compared to Europe? Not many people that I have met seem to be interested within this style....at least at the DZ's that I've been to(East Coast).

Lastly....what are some key tips for body position for Angle flight/Atmonauti(knees dropped with butt up)? Tips on getting into formation when its a little further out? Many thanks Wink!


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jun 13, 2011, 3:50 PM
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't really need to be proficient at head down flying, but being an experienced head down flyer translates very easily to angle flying where the opposite may not necessarily be true IMO. Angle flying doesn't really help a ton in trying to learn to head down fly, but it certainly doesn't hurt and it helps more than just belly flying! If you want to work on head down flying, then work on head down flying. You don't need angles as a segway.

Angle flying never needed to be "adopted" in the United States, it has existed here for a long time. Except everybody just called it steep tracking or flocking and didn't really make a big fuss about it, celebrate it, or give it new fancy names. It seems that a very small group of Europeans pushed to try and call it something new and different, and everyone else came back with, "umm, this is not new and not very different." Much like (most) people don't think of backsliding as a new/different discipline. There are quite a few old threads about this from a few years ago. You can read all about the science behind relative gravitational winds. It's pretty epic. Laugh

I've done some big angle flying dives on a few east coast DZs including Crosskeys (Punautti), Suffolk, Raeford, CSS, Skydive Carolina, Zhills, and Sebastian. You just see it a bit less and people don't celebrate it as some kind of revolution. It's just a tracky/flocky dive. It's easy to do, and I've taught people with as little as 50 jumps to do it fairly well. With enough practice you can angle fly with almost any track dive if you stay ahead of it.

As far as tips, just go fly with folks who are good at it and have them give you some pointers. Reading about it on the internet won't help much. It's pretty easy when you just give it a try with someone setting base if you can already track well. Just stay on head to head level with the base, tuck your head a bit, control pitch with your chest, hang on your thighs, and rudder with your feet. Plan out where you're headed, sort out the exit order just like a track dive, have fun with it, then drink beer at sunset Cool


FCipollo  (A 48426)

Jun 14, 2011, 7:08 AM
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi MChamp...

There's a lot more to talk about than can fit in this thread but I'll throw out a few points for you to consider. There are a lot of different opinions when it comes to this kind of flying. In my opinion, tracking/angle flying/etc or any kind of flying where there is actual movement (rather than just falling straight down a tube) is the purest kind of flying. Being able to incorporate that movement into vertical jumps and vice versa is what makes for the fullest experience in the air and expands the boundaries of what we do and what we can fantasize about and then execute on.

I haven't been around 20 years but have been fortunate enough to fly with a few of the pioneers and the best in both the vertical and "tracking" (tp simplify it) camps. Most of them that have been around long enough will tell you, and logically so, that freeflying started as an escape from belly-flying and the 2-dimensional plane...due to better gear and a bunch of other factors. Playing around with tracking, changing angles, going vertical, then going slightly off vertical and moving, moving fast, smooth and going into a fast flat track, banking to one side and into a head-down carve, etc. The harmony of combining all of that is a completely different sensation from staying just in one spot and it was the origin of the more standard freeflying today.

Unfortunately, it's also not a very quantifiable mode of flight because there are so many different interpretations of it and very few people (outside of Europeans and a few people here like me) that do it. Flying vertical and hitting 20 points in a standard freefly routine or participating in some record head-down jump somewhere instead is a very quantifiable thing. You're either stable, head-level and in control in a group of 20 30 40 people going 90 degrees towards earth or you're not. So it's very black and white. Flying, as I like to refer to tracking/angles/etc., instead does not have a state record and does not have a "clear" path for what it takes to progress. For a head-down record, for example, a new skydiver will know what it takes...it's what everyone practices at the dz every weekend, it's what people spend hours doing in the tunnel...all so you can go and fly safely and smoothly with a bunch of other folks that followed the same steps. That's not the case with angle flight. There's a lot more open-endedness to it and therefore it's not for everyone.

If you ask most people at a dz in the US to do a track dive, it'll likely be slow. People will be arched, they will be sinking but thinking they are really tracking. There will be someone doing what he thinks is "atmonauti" and staying a little ahead of the leader and he'll think he is moving fast and thinking he is flying an angle. So per Simon's post, I can see how people assume it's easy to do and there's nothing to it. Now watch this video and tell me if that is all there is to it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-GdLZ96xCg . That is Ippo Fabbi. A real master of flying and fortunately a teacher of mine. Those jumps involve everything from real flat tracking, to steep angles, to head-down, etc. That is real flying...in my opinion.

I think one important thing to consider is that there isn't just one angle that is the "correct" angle. Atmonauti for example is one particular body position and generally exists within a specific range of angles. If you consider head-down a 90 degree angle to the earth and belly flying 0 degrees (parallel) to the earth, "angle" flying is really anything in between. The positions can either involve keeping your body straight or bending your knees, etc. (I could spend pages talking about this but I'll keep it short here). It can also be done at different speeds but generally to be able to move smoothly and change orientations without giving up speed or control or flow, you need to keep a constant level of pressure across your whole body as you move from flying on your belly, to your side (yes, you can fly on your side) to your back or whatever combination of that. If you're not head-down yet, playing with tracking (proper tracking) and slowly bringing that angle steeper and steeper will get you more and more comfortable with being vertical. So that when you do hit that 90 degree head-down sweet-spot, you'll know it because you will have gotten comfortable with the whole range.

If you're really interested in learning what angle flying is really about, I'd be more than happy to show you or teach you. I'm always learning myself by the way. What makes it harder in the US is that no one does it but it doesn't matter. You fly how you want to fly. In my experience over the last couple of years, anyone that gets a taste of what angle flying is really about, even people who've spent years head-down, are ecstatic when they reach the ground...almost as if they had just done their first tandem. As Simon said, it's not a new thing but people have stopped experimenting in the rush and narrow-mindedness to just be on their heads and nothing else.


piisfish

Jun 14, 2011, 8:51 AM
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Re: [FCipollo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What makes it harder in the US is that no one does it but it doesn't matter.
like not Gabe Matta at SDAZ ? (for example)


FCipollo  (A 48426)

Jun 14, 2011, 9:04 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

To be specific with that statement, I mean it's far enough from the norm that it's hard to find people to learn from and to push things with together.


solodude59  (Student)

Jun 14, 2011, 10:32 AM
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Re: [FCipollo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's clickiefy that link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-GdLZ96xCg

There we go! Wink


piisfish

Jun 15, 2011, 12:27 AM
Post #7 of 117 (6109 views)
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Re: [FCipollo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To be specific with that statement, I mean it's far enough from the norm that it's hard to find people to learn from and to push things with together.
I would be pretty sure that most of the US freefly coaches who travel to Europe do enjoy that kind of jumping


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jun 15, 2011, 5:45 AM
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Re: [FCipollo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To be specific with that statement, I mean it's far enough from the norm that it's hard to find people to learn from and to push things with together.

If you think it's hard to find then you're really not looking at all. There are many dropzones all across the country where people do this regularly. The difference is that in some minority group European mentality, it is prefaced with "look at us look at us! we're doing something new and different" and attach all sorts of names like angles, atmonauti, tracing, etc, or whatever the newest name is for the same thing is again. Then edit videos about it like it's all new and different to post everywhere on the internet. In the US, it's just freeflying and the folks say, "hey let's go freeflying". Okay, maybe some of the Eloy folk have taken a liking to calling it "zoom zoom".

But all the same, it's easy to start doing and you can really find it anywhere where there is lots of freeflying going on. What you probably won't find is groups of people doing ONLY this all weekend and treating it like a whole new discipline. In the US it is often just another dive in the mix for the weekend. Like said above, you can see this ANY weekend you go to Eloy and Gabe is around. Or ANY weekend you go to Sebastian and Luis is around. There are many who organize these dives, but generally not ONLY these dives.

If you're looking to focus ONLY on angle stuff, your best bet would be to go to Europe and find the places where it is in higher concentration.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 15, 2011, 7:03 AM
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The difference is that in some minority group European mentality, it is prefaced with "look at us look at us! we're doing something new and different" and attach all sorts of names like angles, atmonauti, tracing, etc, or whatever the newest name is for the same thing is again. Then edit videos about it like it's all new and different to post everywhere on the internet.

It's Olav-envy. Like it or not, the guy is recognized as the 'inventor' of freeflying, and in comparison to what was happening at the time, freeflying was a significant shift from what was the status quo, and that's why it got a name and was recognized as it's own discipline.

Atmo-whatever isn't far enough from freefying to be it's own thing. It's just a few degrees off from head down, and almost identical to an old-fashioned flocking dive.

It's just like 'New Coke' if anyone remembers that. The product itself was all that different from 'old Coke' and it was largely a marketing ploy, and in the end, largely a failure. 'New' Coke faded away, and we just back to 'old' Coke. Sorry Europe, time to take a hint from the Coke camp.

Now let's try to refrain from making cocaine jokes,


FCipollo  (A 48426)

Jun 15, 2011, 7:30 AM
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

All fair points but I think this thread has gone down the wrong path. Who cares what any of any of this is called or how old it is. We've already established none of this is new.

Yes there are people in certain dropzones that do it for sure. The point I am making is that there is a lot more to it than doing some kind of loose track/flock/angle whatever dive once or twice a day that is far from tight, is relatively slow and disorganized, etc. and then saying "yeah, we angle fly and it's easy".

The other point I was trying to make is that it's all flying at the end of the day and incorporating all angles in more jumps is something amazing (even if old) that most people neglect. So to brush it off to the side and say, "it's easy, just go do x, y and z and then have a beer" is a very dismissive attitude.

If you did a group vertical dive and people are not head level and kind of close but not really, you wouldn't say it was a successful dive. So why would a track/angle/whatever jump not have the same standard? The current mentality seems to be a rush to go the tunnel, get super good vertically and then treat anything else as a gimmick when it's that "gimmick" fueled through experimentation that led to the more quantifiable vertical stuff that you do today.

For someone like the original poster who is clearly interested in the whole range of flying, we should be encouraging all of it. Every angle from 0 to 90 requires a ton of practice and deserves respect.


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jun 15, 2011, 10:55 AM
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Re: [FCipollo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you did a group vertical dive and people are not head level and kind of close but not really, you wouldn't say it was a successful dive.

Why wouldn't I? I do these dives all the time. Did everyone land safely? Did everyone have fun? Did everyone walk away learning something and progressing their skills? If so, then yes, I would say it was a very successful dive.

Quote:
So why would a track/angle/whatever jump not have the same standard?

It does. When I do them, we go do x, y, and z, have fun and learn, then have a beer. I don't think that's dismissive at all. Like you say, it's all flying at the end of the day. What I dismiss is trying to push angles as something radically different. It's all just freeflying and doesn't exist in a state that has yet to be "adopted" because a small group of Europeans want to tell everyone it is a radical shift in modern freeflying. Olav-envy, I like that.

Quote:
The point I am making is that there is a lot more to it than doing some kind of loose track/flock/angle whatever dive once or twice a day that is far from tight, is relatively slow and disorganized, etc. and then saying "yeah, we angle fly and it's easy".

You're dismissing angle flights done in the US as inferior and of low quality. I guess you weren't on some of the ones I've been on. The best angle dives I've been on in the US were far better than the angle dives I've been on in Europe. They were large, tight, speedy, and very organized involving formations of different groups interlacing and having multiple formation group leaders. Then afterwords, we did something else. Then had some beer.

Either way, I'm glad you figured out what type of flying you personally find amazing. Different strokes for different folks.


Rigless

Jun 15, 2011, 2:30 PM
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"look at us look at us!

Says the American Wink


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Jun 15, 2011, 5:10 PM
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Re: [Rigless] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
"look at us look at us!

Says the American Wink

who has a website and a movie for sale.Shocked


Frankyspanky

Jun 16, 2011, 4:59 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's just like 'New Coke' if anyone remembers that. The product itself was all that different from 'old Coke' and it was largely a marketing ploy, and in the end, largely a failure.

The difference is that Atmo is successful in pretty much every country except for the USA as far as a being recognised as its own dicipline.

I (almost) did an angle jump in America that was organised by a very experienced freeflyer with 13000 jumps etc etc blah blah.. He was a freefly guru and an awesome tunnel coach too... anyway.

Myself and my swiss buddy had been doing a bunch of really nice Atmo jumps at the time making a bunch of points, rotating positions, flying had level and having fun. We were calling our jumos Atmo jumps (rightfully so) with some confused looks from our american peers.

Anyway this load organiser, looked at me and my buddy in the dirt dive and said;

"I know you guys are flying head level on your angle jumps, but on this dive we are going to strictly fly a delta formation" He dared not say Atmo...

We said OK, laughed (at him) and went and did our own jump and made a bunch of points and had a bunch of fun. They did thier 'burble each other' serious jump no points and not quite grasping the finer details...

My Point?

You can tell an American, but you can't tell them much.

Laugh


(This post was edited by Frankyspanky on Jun 16, 2011, 5:28 AM)


Frankyspanky

Jun 16, 2011, 5:19 AM
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyone have any advice as to how to progress to this style?

Hey buddy,

The Key to Atmo is to find a leader that is proficient in maintaining an angle.

The angle should not be too steep nor too flat.

There is a range of angles that fall within that definition and it doesn't really matter exactly what angle it is.

It is very similar to a tracking jump but a lot more relaxed and not as flat and stiff.

Flying head level is important to avoid burbleing each other and to avoid a deep explanation of that, I have linked the following picture and you will find more detail on the discipline.

http://atmonauti.com/main.html (just realised it is a HTML that will only take you to the intro, so click in and go to the 'Atmonauti?' page.

Do not listen to the (iminent) childish remarks from nay sayers. They are not worth the energy.

They will say it is like flocking etc etc, but flocking is a 'sliding' formation that moves from (relative) wind deflection, Atmo is quite different as it uses lift much like traking but in a more relaxed manner allowing you to present feet and arms for docking.

Most of all it is fun and anybody that tries to take that fun away from you is a wanker.

Just have fun doing what you want to do...


(This post was edited by Frankyspanky on Jun 16, 2011, 5:25 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 16, 2011, 5:59 AM
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

When I return to the Atmonauti.com page, with its annoying Flash crap, it still has all this pseudoscientific posturing about things like the nature of lift, and statements like, "Tiezzi invents the Atmonautics, a new science that studies the use of the human body in the atmosphere".

Move over physics and aerodynamics, Atmonautics is here!

Despite the insufferable nature of those guys, I do like playing with a little atmo as an amateur when I find someone else to try it with. Atmo is a term that is useful in distinguishing the type of dive, whatever the politics behind it.


Rigless

Jun 16, 2011, 6:41 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When I return to the Atmonauti.com page, with its annoying Flash crap, it still has all this pseudoscientific posturing about things like the nature of lift, and statements like, "Tiezzi invents the Atmonautics, a new science that studies the use of the human body in the atmosphere".

Move over physics and aerodynamics, Atmonautics is here!

Despite the insufferable nature of those guys, I do like playing with a little atmo as an amateur when I find someone else to try it with. Atmo is a term that is useful in distinguishing the type of dive, whatever the politics behind it.

It's funny how people tend to get lost in those "politics" too much.

Why does it matter so much who "invented" it or whatever the "discipline" / jump type is called.. It seems the one's that are shouting with dissatisfaction are mostly Americans too (ego problems?).

Screw the politics, you people forget too often how to simply enjoy stuff Smile

Oh and yeah, atmo (or whatever you wanna call it) is a lot of fun if you do it correctly with the right people Smile


fedykin  (D License)

Jun 20, 2011, 1:16 AM
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

No comment! Surprised the atmo mafia thought police havent stepped in....
Relative rotation gravitational wind or something like that, crazyness!


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jun 21, 2011, 11:38 AM
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Re: [fedykin] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No comment! Surprised the atmo mafia thought police havent stepped in....
Relative rotation gravitational wind or something like that, crazyness![/reply

Oh boy, the licensed atmo instructor speaks up Wink

Care to give us all some instruction?


mchamp  (D 32129)

Jun 21, 2011, 8:13 PM
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Many thanks to everyone's opinion and explanation. I do try and get on every tracking dive I can possibly get on to further develop my skills.....or lack thereof Wink

Great seeing ya again at Carolina Fest Simon, hopefully see ya again at Summerfest!

Also, I hope to try and get around to your DZ FCipollo and potentially get on some loads with you!

Lastly, so if all this is merely considered to be in "American English" "steep tracking" what would you call tracking in 2 groups that go from side to side above and below each group with 1 leader each? Would everyone agree to call it tracing?

This past weekend I was on a tracking dive that turned way steep way too quick(assuming the leader was going to begin slow and flat but nope!), didn't quite learn so much but did get a chance to see what getting some real distance was!


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jun 21, 2011, 8:57 PM
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Lastly, so if all this is merely considered to be in "American English" "steep tracking" what would you call tracking in 2 groups that go from side to side above and below each group with 1 leader each?

Freeflying Cool

So here's a couple questions to ponder. If you have a track dive, but then you make it a bit more complicated of a track dive by having two leaders and tracking around each other, at what point does it stop being a track dive? When you have more than angle X but less than angle Y? Does more than one leader stop making a track dive a track dive? What if there was no particular leader, is it still not a track dive?

If you take a belly RW dive, but have two bases that fly up and over the other, at what point does it stop being a belly RW dive? There are certain 4way FS blocks that do exactly that.

If you do a spaceball jump but use more than one spaceball and let them drift around each other, does it stop being a spaceball dive?

Speaking of Carolinafest, there we all saw a double raft dive where flyers flew two inflatable rafts relative to each other, up and over each other. Is it still not a raft dive?

Maybe a track dive stops being a track dive when you make a website about it and start offering to issue instructors licenses in track dives for a fee.


(This post was edited by SimonBones on Jun 21, 2011, 9:42 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 21, 2011, 11:57 PM
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe a track dive stops being a track dive when you make a website about it and start offering to issue instructors licenses in track dives for a fee.

For a seemingly intelligent guy Simon, you appear to have a very narrow view of things here.

No one is disputing that ANY jump where you are translating across the sky/ground is a tracking jump. (You are after all tracking a path through the sky)

But under the UMBRELLA of tracking different types/styles have been developed, which for communications sake, have also developed their own terminology in other parts of the world.
Flat tracking with a bunch of guys in rel suits and booties, is considerably different to stacking an angled track, and or tracing.
Yes they are all moving ACROSS the ground so they are all Tracking, but they are not the all same thing and they require different levels of skill to conduct them safely and in a controlled manner.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 22, 2011, 7:05 AM
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

It is more or less headdown flocking no??? I haven't seen single belly flyer being able to keep with the group even with ton of belly jumps..
Or are we too flying steep to be called atmonauti????

Whatever you wanna cll it you need to be proficient hd flyer to enjoy this "thingy"


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jun 22, 2011, 7:15 AM
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Re: [Squeak] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree mostly, except for:

Quote:
No one is disputing that ANY jump where you are translating across the sky/ground is a tracking jump. (You are after all tracking a path through the sky)

Apparently you did not read the atmonauti website or the original Tiezzi and friends threads. There is a very strong push from some to not only attempt to re-categorize it entirely as specifically NOT tracking, but beyond even freeflying as a completely new discipline separate from freeflying that requires its own instructional ratings, its own licensing, and even its own section on dz.com separate from freeflying.

I'm not disputing that there are some small differences from the flattest of possible track dives and the steepest of possible track dives, but it is certainly not different enough for the need to develop new licenses or instructor certifications. Come on now, tracking relative at a bit of a steeper angle with your mates certainly does not "revolutionize the concept of skydiving". If refusing to buy into the revolution of human flight band wagon invented "in 1998" means that Americans are narrow minded and that angle flying is not 'accepted', then consider me proud to wear that label. Cool


hookitt  (D License)

Jun 22, 2011, 2:49 PM
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I just watched this video. It has some angled stuff. There's no way you can compare this to any form of tracking... Please Simon. Get a grip. There is no spoon.

http://vimeo.com/25346196

Show me where you see tracking?


Edit: Fix the URL


(This post was edited by hookitt on Jun 22, 2011, 2:51 PM)


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jun 22, 2011, 3:23 PM
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Re: [hookitt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There's no way you can compare this to any form of tracking.

Sure I can. Just as Squeak did above:

Quote:
No one is disputing that ANY jump where you are translating across the sky/ground is a tracking jump. (You are after all tracking a path through the sky)

and

Quote:
Yes they are all moving ACROSS the ground so they are all Tracking

I think you should re-read my previous post, here is a snip:

Quote:
I'm not disputing that there are some small differences from the flattest of possible track dives and the steepest of possible track dives, but it is certainly not different enough for the need to develop new licenses or instructor certifications. Come on now, tracking relative at a bit of a steeper angle with your mates certainly does not "revolutionize the concept of skydiving".

Nowhere am I saying that you shouldn't do it, or that it isn't a ton of fun, nor am I saying that Babylon aren't talented flyers in any flying that they do. I do quite a few angle dives every year. I've done some pretty intense ones at Summerfest. I have had freefly coach students I have taught angle flying to and have led several angle dives at several dzs. Some flatter and some much steeper, and some changing direction and pitch. I am not saying that it is the exact same as a flat track. What I won't do is buy into the notion that steep tracking or flocking or flackmonacing, or whatever you intend on calling angle dives, is a revolutionary transcendence of freeflying and a whole new discipline that is not "adopted" by the US because it's new or different than what has already been being done for a long time. I personally don't buy it. But you can if you'd like. Like I said, different strokes for different folks. Not sure where the conflict is.

So to answer your question, I see lots of tracking all over the video. Tracking/Flocking at steep angles as well as shallower ones like at 1:25. Just because they change leaders or directions or angles does not mean they are not tracking a path through the sky. But I agree, I did not see a spoon Wink

What do you think Tim in your years of freeflying? Is the concept of steep angles/flocks something you've never seen or heard of before? Is this above and beyond the definition of freeflying? Do these dives "revolutionize the concept of skydiving"?


(This post was edited by SimonBones on Jun 22, 2011, 3:40 PM)


piisfish

Jun 22, 2011, 11:54 PM
Post #27 of 117 (2548 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Show me where you see tracking?
show me where you see atmo Angelic


marcoT

Jun 23, 2011, 1:31 AM
Post #28 of 117 (2540 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in dz.com after long time… I see that the eternal discussion still goes on , with usual sarcastic people, but with a lot more people have really clear the true . I really don’t want follow you in this discussion but for the correct of the information for the people that read , I just want to say again few things :
You can’t change history ! Atmonauti was presented in 2000 and before was existing only traditional tracking and the freefly was 99,9% vertical stuff and a bit of flock ( still hi vertical speed) ! I remind that tracking was only flat, with a “rabbit” on the back and people following on their belly from behind, using rw technique to make the regulation, atmonauti introduced a new set up with head level and with the people flying on their front flying forward completely opposite of traditional track, with a new body position allowing the air to hit from the head and the possibility to have the body more relax and open a new variety of games. Who have try in the past to say that Atmonauti was nothing new , NEVER demonstrate this words with easy fact as videos, pictures , articles etc … just word … just nothing . At reverse we are full of historic documents , pictures, articles and videos (at disposition to everybody that wants ) , where you can see all the big names of freefly who track in the traditional way … very far away from what they are doing now . The question is : why all this guys ( all the best flyer in the world of that time ) have modify their way to track only after 2000 ??? May be they have learn a new technique after 2000 ? And I tell you more : Atmonauti was not just new , but also a real revolution respect what was existing before , so much to influence later also other discipline as the base jump and the wing suit …. Check the video of this disciplines before and after 2000 … you will see clear differences !
You guys are not very well informed about the fact Atmonauti is not just a funny name : In 2003 Atmonauti enter in FAI rules as new orientation !!! … and was also one of the compulsory move of freeflying and freestyle World competiton …. In 2009 The Atmonauti discipline is enter in the South Africa federation rules and in the Nationals competitions along with rw and freefly …. Actually other federation are evaluating the same thing ….. Austalian flyers in 2010 run an Atmonauti World Record attempt with FAI judges for the first time ……
You are not also very informed about the huge variety of speeds and angles that since 2000 we have perform in all the thousands of flights done around the world : a part the Atmoanuti formations in contact and no contact , a part the Atmonauti relative work in two and in four way , the Airshows with smoke very fast , In 1999 we have fly side to the airplane from the exit to break-off with the Atmonauti technique in a very high horizontal speed , completely new free style and free-fly performed in World competitions from 2000 to 2003 with big variety of speeds , angles , and body shapes with also many complex maneuvers in it ; tandem atmonauti every time different in speeds and angles , atmonauti feet first more steeper , flight with big curves with change of speeds and angles …. For who want to verify can find all this videos and pictures on www.atmonauti.com .
Is right to inform , especially the young skydiver , that things as “tracking” complex dock formations , feet first , tandem without drog slower than 200 km/h, or again fly side by side with the airplane with total and perfect control very fast horizontally , was just considerate IMPOSSIBLE !!! With the new revolutionary Atmonauti technique , all this was become possible …. Just facts !
If You want to give tips to the people I think is correct to know the things a bit better …..
Regarding Filippo Fabbi that you say, is just one of the numerous person up-indicate that have start to use this technique later that 2000 but incorrectly calling with different name … watch Willing to Fly (Norman Kent vieo) , you will see Fabbi track in a super traditional way …
History is important if you want to make correct information . I’m full of material , at disposition to everybody , where we can see all this peoples now using the new thecnique Atmonauti and calling with different names ,who were tracking in the really traditional way …. A lot of world magazines , videos , boogies , pictures , skydiving advertising , skydiving book …. easy

Thousands of peoples in the world know exactly the difference between atmonauti and tracking … thousands know that Atmonauti is not just one speed and one angle , they have watch many time the videos with all the varaiety of speed and angles performed since 2000 ; thousands of people they was jumping before 2000 and they know perfectly what was tracking and freefly before 2000 ; even federations are evaluating the positivity of this new discipline , some have already done ; thousands of people don’t believe any more who say that atmonauti is just tracking … thousands of people verify the information and immediately understand where is the true !
Is just a question of time but always more and more peoples will discover the huge potentiality of the technique Atmonauti , especially the more younger and inexperienced skydiver , learning fast a technique that permit them to fly in the real meaning of the word , create real LIFT ( never existing in skydiving before Atmonauti) , in all the speeds and angles , with total control for playing free or docs and relative work …. And without expensive 1-o-1 . All the our guys here when they have 300 jumps , they will fly atmonauti in front and back and easy keep and control the basic of the head down …. with ZERO one-o-one !!!! … Just Atmonauti done in the correct and complete way , starting to play with the group from the beginning , with detailed breafing and debreafing ! This is the reality that all this guys enjoy every days, and that become more and more stronger around the world . In these places the process is really start and actually very difficult to be stopped …more easy than other will see that the system works and adopt it ….
You can do what you want and I really don’t care , but hide all this to young skydiver is a really bad operation for the sport and for sure don’t help their progression …. I think when they will realize this , they will be not so happy . Personally I think that who do this , write clearly his name in history in the list of the person that have try to slow down this amazing process of evolution of humanity : The Real Human Fly easy and accessible to everybody.
I really don’t know if you will be able to change all this ….. good luck and all the best. Ciao


aeroflyer  (C License)

Jun 23, 2011, 6:06 AM
Post #29 of 117 (2522 views)
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Re: [Rigless] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I like atmo it's a very interesting discipline, I'm just learning to fly between the flat track and head down position, when you get it right the air flows down your body head to feet instead of hitting your front, it feels quite different. As a starter I'm working on staying stable at speed and putting my arms out / knees down to slow down. My track could still use some work.. a classic track and the atmo position are definately not the same thing. Although I have seen people appearing to make decent headway on an angle dive.. but I think it's just due to the increased speed. I don't know if it's right but my pro-track has been saying 140mph on the angle?

Anyway, keep the discussion going!


hookitt  (D License)

Jun 23, 2011, 9:47 AM
Post #30 of 117 (2499 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I see lots of tracking all over the video.

What!!! Insane Clown Posse you are. No spoon and no tracking!

I loved the video, The tight tracking formations were bad ass. Ok folks, did you notice that the positions were not froggy? They were tracking positions.

I'm ok with people calling it whatever they want. We flocked, we tracked and even made formations before 2000, it eventually was given a name and more people got good at it. We (the general we) all got better at pretty much everything in the last decade.

I really like the leader switching dive. That looked pretty tight. I wish they showed a longer version of that to see how they set it up and how long they could continue.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 23, 2011, 3:13 PM
Post #31 of 117 (2475 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I smell bullshit.

Sheep.

Wolves.

Sheepdogs.

Pick one.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Jun 23, 2011, 3:15 PM)


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 23, 2011, 7:54 PM
Post #32 of 117 (2451 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

This post is anout to go stupid.

They are ALL head down flying.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jun 23, 2011, 9:59 PM
Post #33 of 117 (2443 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They are ALL head down flying.

That is not true. I've been on an Atmo jump, several actually, With Marco and "G" while she was head up flying. That was fun. I miss you guys!


piisfish

Jun 24, 2011, 2:26 AM
Post #34 of 117 (2428 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I smell bullshit.

Sheep.

Wolves.

Sheepdogs.

Pick one.
call it whatever you want (or not), fact is that we do hardly ever see "american angled flying videos", and that the europeans seem to do that a lot, and upload lots of videos of angulated flying...

Maybe that's because we are crooked and can't manage to fly decently vertically, be it head up, head down, or flat LaughLaugh


(This post was edited by piisfish on Jun 24, 2011, 7:10 AM)


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Jun 24, 2011, 7:07 AM
Post #35 of 117 (2385 views)
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I just had to delete a few posts in this thread. This has been an interesting and informative debate so far; let's keep it that way and leave the PA's and snarky comments out of it.


Frankyspanky

Jun 25, 2011, 2:19 AM
Post #36 of 117 (2324 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://vimeo.com/25346196

Show me where you see tracking?

That is some seriously tight angle flying, changing the leader like that and remaining so tight is simply amazing...

Thanks for sharing.

To the atmo nay sayers, if you don't like the tv show, change the channel.

freedom of choice and all that...

go do a tracking jump or something...


marcoT

Jun 25, 2011, 3:43 PM
Post #37 of 117 (2297 views)
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

With the aim to try to be positive and concrete in the debate , and hoping that this can help mchamp’s request , here some considerations for clarify some points that I consider very important specially for who have less experience :

1) Is important to define the different things with their correct definitions , especially when they are so different to involve different physic effects : a. “Resistence” physic effect for the TRACKING always exist and teach from the AFF ; b. “Lift” physic effect for the ATMONAUTI . This first of all to avoid confusion . Who have tried , know exactly the airflow on the body is different , the sensation is different and last but not least the technique to move and regulate is completely different …. So why call this two different things with the same TRACKING definition ? Confusion don’t help the beginners that try to understand how the things work.

2) Another important consideration remarking the importance to correct define the different things , regard the safety in matter of “directions” . Since it has been taught in the AFF, and in the normal tracking jumps that have always been done , the track is performed looking in front in the direction towards you are going! In the atmonauti fly , flying in front, the body assume an angle of attack with the head placed towards the ground and the visual looking backwards. This creates a prospective of the visual that is upside down (sky down and earth up) and a vision of the field exactly OPPOSITE of the direction where we are going. And more angles of asset we assume, more opposite and far will be in prospective the visual of the ground . This condition, especially for the beginners, can create a bit of difficulties on orienteering, in particular if you are not informed on this problematic, and if you don’t take other visual points of reference in order to guarantee the respect of the direction. Is important to remember the dangers of groups that can involuntary change flight trajectories towards other group. Is for this reason that we are particularly sensible to do not mix track with the atmonauti. Encourage people to be more efficient by adding “angles” and with the head that watch behind (and who doesn’t want to be more efficient), saying that this technique is tracking, and without saying as the first thing “be careful to the visual of the opposite verse in which you are going”, is really incorrect and create a potential condition of danger. To confuse the track with atmonauti without emphasize this fundamental aspect is a mistake for which one should take the responsibility of a confuse and incomplete information!

3) Learn the Atmonauti Technique from the start allows to play in groups since the beginning learning fast the REAL FLY in many orientation ( front , back etc.) , in different angles , speeds and directions …. The consequence of this correct progression is to know automatically how to keep and control the head down ! But also acquire a very good sensibility in the element precious for any kind of other “freefall” disciplines , “Fly with wing suit” discipline , and of course base jump discipline.

4) Actually Atmonauti is a lot more easy than Freefly so that for the beginners is more easy to learn and start play in the groups since the beginning. From the point of view of the logic , I think is more indicate an “easier” thing for a beginners instead the more “difficult” one …. Especially if in automatic arrive also that one more hard ….

5) Somebody try to limit Atmonauti saying it is just one speed or one angle … do not believe them ! so to avoid confusion about the positions, I rember that Atmonauti is not just one angle, or just one speed , or just one fixed body position (Check also the Atmonauti videos on the net , you will see a big variety of this parameters). Is one complete new technique for use the body as a wing obtain lift and perform a real fly . Positions speed and angles can be very various . But images can make it clear better than words , so in the first attach some example of this varaiety of positions perform from 1998 when was existing only the traditional track visible in the second attach take from some magazine and videos of beginning 2000 …. Necessary to compared to understand what we are talking and also to remaining on the facts.

6) The system imply also that in every atmo flight, there is a “navigator”, a person who is responsible to keep the flight plan, respects the directions planned, linear or not, set the angle or the angles of flight, regulate the speed. He is responsible for all the group and is primarily in charge to set these parameters, and above all to be concentrate to respect the direction. No matter if the group is of two or twenty people, there is always a person with this duty and responsibility.

7) The atmonauti Fly as we know, has many variation and have many different typologies of performances and games, from freestyle to formations, atmo games (Race, ARW, etc), Airshow with smoke … In all these circumstances it’s fundamental the issue of the direction. But is in the smaller group with acrobatic atmo games of freestyle and freefly, or in ARW2 or ARW4 (atmo relative work), that is more important to pay attention to the direction. In effect being more focused in the performance is easier to distract and change direction without realize, especially in the first training jumps. Try always to keep in mind this factor. With experience and constant attention on this particular, the precision of the navigation will be always more fine, until arrive to be more and more an automatism.

Other consideration regarding exit order :
- exit as a first group with a short in spot: only if the navigator is expert and can guarantee safely the direction, after the exit the trajectory of the direction will be opened with a minimum of 45° (right or left) respect the axe of dropping. Is not admitted an involuntary change of direction towards the axe of dropping of the other vertical groups.

- Exit as the last group: is the more safety condition, especially to start with and when you don’t have much experience yet. After the exit make a 90° (right or left) and through the dive, make another 90° in the same direction .

- Exit as an intermediate group: make a clear 90° (right or left) right after the exit respect the axe of dropping. If during the flight you go away too much respect the dz, make and ulterior 90° (right or left).

And again :
Is important to have a previous briefing with the plane pilot, in order to know the daily axe of dropping in relation of altitude winds/dropzone policy and to be informed if this will be changed. In any case the visual contact with the ground is the primary condition to respect the flight plan, and the support of the gps can add useful information to manage the flight.

If for any reason during the flight you find yourself with a lot of distance in relation of the landing area, open the canopy at higher altitudes (normally can be enough 1000 ft or less , than normal ) in order to be able to come back or anyway have more time to evaluate alternative safety landing areas .

Valuation of the wind on the ground, in order to calculate the more indicate place where to be with the canopy open and be able to get back easily to the landing area. If other groups are making navigations, coordinate the different directions taking into consideration also the direction and intensity of the wind from open canopy till the landing,bI mean ground coordination with the other group before get on the plane : “flight plan”!

Valuation of the visibility with the ground to decide, on the base of the navigator’s experience, if the parameters of the direction can be respected safely.

To know the ground conformation and have points of references in the various cardinal points, as an aid to the navigation, keeping into consideration that the visuals of the navigator is opposite to the sense of flight.

Check at open canopy and debriefing (also with the analysis of the gps traces), on the effective respect of the flight plan, finding the factors that can be make the navigation better and always more precise.

Is important to focus on few particulars as: use of head and torso for the movements, legs and arms to regulate the speed. If you fly in group is important to understand to fly at head level, this will help you to fly in the correct body position. Start with front first and try to remain on top of the formation, use the base as a point of reference to practice your movements and always remain in visual contact.

Anyone that has any doubt or questions to make on these topic, is welcome for more explanations.
Have fun with atmosphere navigations.


(This post was edited by skymama on Jun 26, 2011, 6:10 AM)
Attachments: different atmo positions2.jpg (208 KB)
  tracking.jpg (123 KB)


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Jun 25, 2011, 6:26 PM
Post #38 of 117 (2285 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

don't use the word "LIFT" it implies that you are gaining alti. when really you are just slowing down.
also just because you write long replies doesn't make you right. now go jump and a slow down compared to who you're jumping with.Tongue


Frankyspanky

Jun 26, 2011, 12:08 AM
Post #39 of 117 (2272 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
don't use the word "LIFT" it implies that you are gaining alti. when really you are just slowing down.

LOL, So parachutes don't produce lift?

Wingsuits?

What are you trying to say.

Parachutes, tracking, wingsuits and atmo produce lift, not enough to go up again, but enough to reduce the fall rate.


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Jun 26, 2011, 5:30 AM
Post #40 of 117 (2256 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In traking you well produce Lift
More flat tracking - more lift


Frankyspanky

Jun 26, 2011, 6:15 AM
Post #41 of 117 (2277 views)
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Re: [NWPoul] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
More flat tracking - more lift

To a point where you begin to stall...

Atmo is in the middle of the range, tracking is on the edge.


(This post was edited by Frankyspanky on Jun 26, 2011, 6:16 AM)


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Jun 26, 2011, 6:32 AM
Post #42 of 117 (2273 views)
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
More flat tracking - more lift

To a point where you begin to stall...
Atmo is in the middle of the range, tracking is on the edge.
I mean not bodyposition but resulting glide
If you get more flat glide - it's shows that you have better L/D ratio


mchamp  (D 32129)

Jun 26, 2011, 12:46 PM
Post #43 of 117 (2246 views)
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Re: [NWPoul] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is some big way tracing.....! Or whatever its called Laugh

http://www.youtube.com/...Uk&feature=feedu


hookitt  (D License)

Jun 26, 2011, 1:39 PM
Post #44 of 117 (2240 views)
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
http://vimeo.com/25346196

Show me where you see tracking?

That is some seriously tight angle flying, changing the leader like that and remaining so tight is simply amazing...

Thanks for sharing.

To the atmo nay sayers, if you don't like the tv show, change the channel.

freedom of choice and all that...

go do a tracking jump or something...

I was kidding. I am not disagreeing with Simon .The flying in that videos is great but I see plenty of tracking. There are plenty of tracking positions including all of them in the 2 attachments.. Call it anything you want to because TFS just isn't good enough. (Tracking formation skydiving)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jun 26, 2011, 4:07 PM
Post #45 of 117 (2225 views)
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that stupid, completely senseless diagram again!

It shows a zero angle of attack, claiming that you can get enough lift (even though they aren't making the shape with their body that would make lift, and they are at a zero angle of attack) that the relative wind will be in the same direction as your body is pointed, that you will be travelling in that same direction that you are pointed! Do you really believe that? Even the group of pics of people supposedly doing atmowhatever clearly show that not to be the case, but the diagram persists...

You need not wonder why atmowhatever is ridiculed when they continue to make such stupid claims.

I'm sure it is fun, and is a lot more involved than a simple tracking dive, but you aren't travelling with the wind going as indicated.
Attachments: Totally not correct.JPG (24.5 KB)


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 26, 2011, 9:01 PM
Post #46 of 117 (2207 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a VERTICAL flocking dive.

If there are two type of skydive vertical being head down and up and flat being bellyfly and backflying.
All those diagram or picture showes moving vertical formation, if you put average sized belly flyer into one of these dive, they will never be able to keep up with the group, no matter how legit belly flyer they are, unless they can fly on their head.

And yeah, you present more surface area to move you create lift, or more drag whatever you wanna call it, slowing you down compare to being completely vertical falling straight down.
No shit, human body alone won't crwate lift to land own its own, That is Jeb Coriss's job to figure that out


fedykin  (D License)

Jun 27, 2011, 5:30 AM
Post #47 of 117 (2181 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey guys, from someone who's experienced first hand the cult like sillyness of the atmo crew a word of advice

1- Its almost a religion, arguing on a fact and scientific basis doesnt really have any effect upon them

2- It just gives them a forum to talk more pseudo scientific overly passionate dribble

If you don't like the agenda, just ignore them. Its like celebrities or fashionable causes. If you dont talk about them and allow them to dominate the agenda then they disappear. Talking about them makes them seem of real significance.

Just ignore them, they're comfortably confined to obscurity in a small corner of the world...

Not too dissimilar to discussing Sarah Pallin or Scientology. The crazy followers don't really want to debate or listen to what you say.


(This post was edited by fedykin on Jun 27, 2011, 5:32 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 28, 2011, 10:19 AM
Post #48 of 117 (2100 views)
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Re: [fedykin] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

So you're saying L. Ron Hubbard was involved in the creation of Atmo?


fedykin  (D License)

Jun 28, 2011, 2:17 PM
Post #49 of 117 (2079 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

lol, Martin Reynolds would be the guy to chat to about that....


genfreefly  (D 20252)

Jun 29, 2011, 4:17 AM
Post #50 of 117 (2036 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

molto grazie for your contributions to skydiving (i'm serious).

but you can come back in another 5 years to try to rewrite the laws of physics with your 'science' (and i use that term loosely; very loosely)

http://www.dropzone.com/...g=atmonauti;#2153635

good luck w/ that.


(This post was edited by genfreefly on Jun 29, 2011, 7:52 AM)


Frankyspanky

Jun 29, 2011, 2:48 PM
Post #51 of 117 (2048 views)
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Re: [genfreefly] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Well when if many of you people can say Atmonauti is neither a discipline nor a manoeuvre, then go and tell the FAI.

It was a compulsory manoeuvre at the World Parachuting Championships for a number of competitions so has been recognised by the FAI.


(This post was edited by Frankyspanky on Jun 29, 2011, 3:03 PM)


78RATS  (D 25449)

Jun 29, 2011, 4:06 PM
Post #52 of 117 (2039 views)
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Skip to two minute mark and you will see we invented this shit when Simon was in grade school. haha.

Peace John Matthews.


Click


hookitt  (D License)

Jun 29, 2011, 4:20 PM
Post #53 of 117 (2033 views)
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well when if many of you people can say Atmonauti is neither a discipline nor a manoeuvre, then go and tell the FAI.

It was a compulsory manoeuvre at the World Parachuting Championships for a number of competitions so has been recognised by the FAI.

You sure told us!! Cool

Tell me the physics are actually how it's described on the website and especially that funky leg down picture.

Call it anything you want to. An eagle and an over under is the same move yes? When we (the general we) started naming freefly moves, people that named the same moves had to switch to the popular name.

I can back track right up to another jumper and take a dock. It's still tracking but you're still welcome to call it autmonauti.


marcoT

Jun 29, 2011, 5:37 PM
Post #54 of 117 (2025 views)
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Re: [genfreefly] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques , knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jun 30, 2011, 6:23 AM
Post #55 of 117 (1967 views)
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Re: [78RATS] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Care to date the video? I didn't think so. It obviously could not have been before the year 1998 because that's the year flying at an angle was invented Laugh


aeroflyer  (C License)

Jun 30, 2011, 7:11 AM
Post #56 of 117 (1956 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not that stupid, completely senseless diagram again!

It shows a zero angle of attack, claiming that you can get enough lift (even though they aren't making the shape with their body that would make lift, and they are at a zero angle of attack) that the relative wind will be in the same direction as your body is pointed, that you will be travelling in that same direction that you are pointed! Do you really believe that? Even the group of pics of people supposedly doing atmowhatever clearly show that not to be the case, but the diagram persists...

You need not wonder why atmowhatever is ridiculed when they continue to make such stupid claims.

I'm sure it is fun, and is a lot more involved than a simple tracking dive, but you aren't travelling with the wind going as indicated.

I think this diagram is just to give a basic indication of the position.. and it does that fine.

In the "atmo" position, the air does feel like its going head to toe, in reality, you will be at a small angle of attack.

However, what you said in the quote is not true - cambered airfoils, or more simply shapes with greater curvature over the top than the underside can in fact produce lift at a zero angle of attack. The rig on one's back may be creating this effect but aerodynamics around a human are very complex and subtle.

Whether Atmo can produce better lift to drag ratios than a track I am not sure. It is however operating farther away from the stall which means the speed will be greater (obviously).

In a track, you may or may not be stalled.. as in flow separating off your back. The flying human is an extremely low aspect ratio aerofoil, which means that we stall at very (high 20 - 30 degree, perhaps) angles of attack. It would be useful to look at the results for delta wings of small AR and compare them to how we fly...


(This post was edited by aeroflyer on Jun 30, 2011, 7:16 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jun 30, 2011, 8:00 AM
Post #57 of 117 (1943 views)
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Re: [aeroflyer] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Not that stupid, completely senseless diagram again!

It shows a zero angle of attack, claiming that you can get enough lift (even though they aren't making the shape with their body that would make lift, and they are at a zero angle of attack) that the relative wind will be in the same direction as your body is pointed, that you will be travelling in that same direction that you are pointed! Do you really believe that? Even the group of pics of people supposedly doing atmowhatever clearly show that not to be the case, but the diagram persists...

You need not wonder why atmowhatever is ridiculed when they continue to make such stupid claims.

I'm sure it is fun, and is a lot more involved than a simple tracking dive, but you aren't travelling with the wind going as indicated.

I think this diagram is just to give a basic indication of the position.. and it does that fine.

In the "atmo" position, the air does feel like its going head to toe, in reality, you will be at a small angle of attack.

No, it is wrong in a very fundamental way.

Just because the air feels like it is moving head to toe doesn't justify a complete misrepresentation of the facts.

So now the rig is what is giving lift, sure it will, but I thought atmo was about some incredible new discovery in flying position?


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Jun 30, 2011, 10:35 AM
Post #58 of 117 (1924 views)
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Re: [aeroflyer] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Whether Atmo can produce better lift to drag ratios than a track I am not sure.
It's easy to estimate
just compare resulting path (glide angle)
Or even more simple - who do you think will wly further horizontally from the same exit altitude till same deployment alti?


genfreefly  (D 20252)

Jun 30, 2011, 11:08 AM
Post #59 of 117 (1918 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

________________________________________________
Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques, knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again
________________________________________________

paragraphs man. start to utilize paragraphs.
i call them 'atmo-graphs'. i invented them


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Jun 30, 2011, 12:33 PM
Post #60 of 117 (1909 views)
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Re: [genfreefly] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
________________________________________________
Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques, knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again
________________________________________________

paragraphs man. start to utilize paragraphs.
i call them 'atmo-graphs'. i invented them


Fucking Awesome!!!LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh


Frankyspanky

Jul 1, 2011, 3:33 AM
Post #61 of 117 (1859 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You sure told us!! Cool

Just putting it out there, The FAI uses the term eagle so...

You can listen to the ghetto chinese whispers or you can use what is ratified by the most respected interntional sport aviation body.


Andrewnewell  (No License)

Jul 3, 2011, 10:23 AM
Post #62 of 117 (1784 views)
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow man is this topic still going on?! Lol. There still seems to be some strong opinions about Atmo huh!

Not discrediting Marco T’s contribution to the sport an all, but please lets get someone to do the math on this one and put the lift thing to bed!

Atmo, Tracking, Angle flying, headown, head up, trace, carve and blah blah blah. Surely Freeflying covers the lot? The clue is in the name: Free – flying. It covers flying; moving from A to B in the air, in all aspects, orientations and all body positions. The concept of freeflying is massive in scope. When Olav with the help of others initially realised the concept and its potential, it literally opened up the sky’s for everyone. The sad fact is that any attempt to create something outside of this original concept is to deconstruct it and create a sub discipline of sorts. That is until we’re able to fly upwards through some sort of technological advancement in the future?

I don’t doubt that Marco has helped and inspired many flyers out there and also helped to advance peoples understanding of what is personally achievable but claims on angles is pushing it. If by giving things names help people to do new things then so be it but flyers have to be careful not to forget the bigger picture.

Getting stuck on one thing, RW for instance, (Cheeky swipe at the flatties) is like going for a meal in the world’s best Indian restaurant and only having the Popodoms! I say go wild and eat everything!

Personally it kills me the way people are predisposed to give everything structure, put things in boxes, label angles etc….  Horrible pattern seeking animals we all are!

Label what you want, but the last thing people need in the world is more boundaries!

Wouldn’t it be nice if we all just let it all go?


(This post was edited by Andrewnewell on Jul 3, 2011, 10:28 AM)


Frankyspanky

Jul 3, 2011, 11:27 PM
Post #63 of 117 (1745 views)
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Re: [Andrewnewell] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow man is this topic still going on?! Lol. There still seems to be some strong opinions about Atmo huh!
LOL for sure, the strongest opinions seem to be the ones that discredit it though...

In reply to:
Atmo, Tracking, Angle flying, headown, head up, trace, carve and blah blah blah. Surely Freeflying covers the lot? The clue is in the name: Free – flying. It covers flying; moving from A to B in the air, in all aspects, orientations and all body positions.

Sure does, but we need to define each manoever.

Tracking is certainly different to flying head up etc. etc.

I look at it as defining each manoever as in the compulsory rounds in artistic skydiving events at FAI sanctioned meets...

Atmonauti was a compulsory manoever for a while so I guess that clinches it.


Andrewnewell  (No License)

Jul 4, 2011, 1:12 AM
Post #64 of 117 (1734 views)
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
LOL for sure, the strongest opinions seem to be the ones that discredit it though...

I don’t think anyone’s out to discredit Atmonauti as a sub discipline at all, as much as anyone would discredit VRW or similar. I could be wrong but I think the issue is with angles being claimed in the name of Atmonauti and other Pseudo scientific claims that a flyer is generating lift in any real sense. Atmo is what it is, a fun way of flying that resolves issues with burbles in order to better aid flyer interaction.

Strong opinions, Great, if Atmonauti is a solid concept then it should welcome the challenges and would be able to prove that the science behind its claims. However, what we seem to get time and time again is an emotive response with no real answer.

If people didn’t question things where would we be? Still believing that light travels through ether? Flat earth theory?


Quote:
Sure does, but we need to define each manoever.

Tracking is certainly different to flying head up etc. etc.

I look at it as defining each manoever as in the compulsory rounds in artistic skydiving events at FAI sanctioned meets...

Atmonauti was a compulsory manoever for a while so I guess that clinches it.


I agree in terms of Judging, people need certain guidelines in order to distinguish certain manoeuvres. Atmonauti is used by the FAI, IPC…. To help people understand what is going on in order to aid the judging process. Fair enough. There needs to be structure for competitions. But hang on, just because a bunch of officials need guidance, does that mean we need the same thing? I think Id rather ride my bike without the stabilisers on now that I’m a big boy.

The tracking head up thing??? I wouldn’t say head up flying is very different from tracking at all. You’re still moving right? What about feet first ‘Atmo’ tracking. That’s in a sort of a head up orientation right? But its moving horizontally….? Flying is flying, in any orientation in any body position. Whether your moving straight down or at an angle or horizontal, your still moving from a to b. To be able to achieve this under control is part of the wider concept of freeflying developed by Olav and a small handful of other guys way back when. For competitions and personal training in specific angles / body positions, then Ok lets give stuff a label so we can make thing easy. But let’s not claim that someone invents the angle, or the position, that’s just silly.

If the Atmonauts want recognition I suppose at the very most they can lay claim to the development, like you say, of a specific manoeuvre within the wider concept.


aeroflyer  (C License)

Jul 4, 2011, 3:30 AM
Post #65 of 117 (1725 views)
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Re: [NWPoul] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Whether Atmo can produce better lift to drag ratios than a track I am not sure.
It's easy to estimate
just compare resulting path (glide angle)
Or even more simple - who do you think will wly further horizontally from the same exit altitude till same deployment alti?

I would love to compare some data, but I don't have a gps to test this out with. What I've been doing is looking where I started over the ground, looking where I finish, and making a note of the altitudes. Then one can use google maps to get a rough idea.

Just last weekend I did tracking and angles and man, angles seems so much faster.. at about 5000' 4000' the ground just goes by quicker, quite noticable.


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Jul 4, 2011, 3:48 AM
Post #66 of 117 (1722 views)
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Re: [aeroflyer] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just last weekend I did tracking and angles and man, angles seems so much faster.. at about 5000' 4000' the ground just goes by quicker, quite noticable.
It doesn't surprise me:)
The higher overall speed - the higher its Horisontal component (in angle flying) but High L/D is high relation between H and V component not just high H:)


marcoT

Jul 5, 2011, 12:10 PM
Post #67 of 117 (1627 views)
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Re: [Andrewnewell] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes Newell , the discussion goes on but it looks you say always the same things as in the precedents posts , on the different platforms ( last one in the Atmonauti group on face book ) , so no problem , let’s talk again to inform correctly the people reading .

I start posting my first post on DZ.com answering to Stefania Martinengo in 2004 , incredible current again after 7 years ! : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1403614;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC ( post n.8 )

"Is easy to talk and say that you guys have invented everything before the others.... I just say one thing: stop to talk and show videos , pictures , articles sketch …
We have set up a new technique of fly that was not existing before and we have call it “atmonauti” I mean “atmosphere navigators” !
With this technique we have do a lot of new staff never seen before ! we have document all this maneuvers in our web site with dates and references! If you want to see all these manoeuvres go to www.atmonauti.com , page Atmonauti, section Guinness.
If somebody don’t think so , well no problem, but please, start to produce video or picture or whatever with dates and references.
Words or dreams or philosophic definition , are not enough !
You say that “free fly” or “flock” is everything …
I say free fly or flock is just what you have show and what everybody have see until now … no more , no less !
If tomorrow somebody come out with something new or different , never seen before, is right that he call like he want !
That’s the unique way to keep open the evolution !
"

So after 7 years of my request to show some trace of the pioneer experimentation, still happen just a lot of words only .

In my opinion is a big mistake to try to include everything in freefly , that I repeat was exactly what was shown and presented until end of the ’90 … no more , no less . This mean affirm that freefly conception (arrive later) includes head up (existing before Zipser) , include the free-style (existing before Zipser) and every other discipline and positions existing before . This mean disincentives (not encourage ) any new experimentation , because the eventual new discover will be insert by default in the “free fly (everything including)” box …. That if I don’t remember wrong is also a trade mark (?!?) …. at reverse of Atmonauti that do not have any label any registration any trade mark … just a game and a definition for everybody for free !!! As I was wrote in the skydiving magazines articles in years 2000 ! And do not forget the meaning of the term : Atmosphere Navigators …. Pretty indicate for this activity and ,why not, pretty cool too listening the thousands of people (including You) around the all world I have been teaching this, in the last 12 years .

I’m very happy Free Fly today is evolve in a real “3D Space” thanks the Atmonauti concepts , but try to put Atmonauti in the corner, affirm than Atmonauti is just one angle , and freefly was any way including all this , is just ridiculous and a non sense in front of the history . It is true that this ambient have not much historic memory , I consider this a limit , I will try inform about history of happened facts , as much I can ….. To know very well history , to give the right credit , to respect people that have do something positive , to avoid confusion (specially for beginners) are the minimum conditions for hope in a possible EVOLUTION , and for to be considerate a serious sport !

(… And any way , why Newell you ware not telling me all this things , in 2004 at Perris in all the atmo organized jump I run there ? ? ? ! ! ! )

Do not forget also that the Atmonauti fly is very easy and accessible to everybody, in the game with all the friends (not only in the ground) since the beginning , without necessity of expensive 1-o-1 , learning fast to fly different angle and different speed (of course starting from the more easy angles) in front and in back , and in default know to keep and control head down (same airflow on the body than in atmo … hundred of testimony of this by younger skydivers ! …) . So how you can try to define all this with the Free Fly tm existing before ? For years , at least from 95 to 2000 , and even for many years later , when you were going to the boarding area saying “freefly” everybody was knowing exactly that you will go in vertical hi-speed freefalling with this amazing vertical new game head-down (Olav position !!!) and head-up … Even when you was going to the bording area for the traditional track jumps , you was talking about “tracking dive” , not free fly tm (everything including discipline ) … Different definitions Newell are important to define and easy identify different things . Differently from today with a lot of confusion (artificially create) and many definition come out later about the same thing . This is if we want to see the facts in real , differently mean try to force something , so will be interesting to know why . The sure is that the beginners in the sport , instead of have something clear and easy in front of them , they have a big mess than do not help the progression . Different definitions Newell are important to define and easy identify different things , and for avoid confusion ! Fair enough ? Personally it kills me the way people are predisposed to give everything structure, put things in boxes, label angles etc….  Horrible pattern seeking animals we all are!
Quote:

Personally it kills me the way SOME people are predisposed to keep steady this amazing evolution for some personal interest . It kills me to know , that the same pleasure that the guys have here with 100 jumps flying atmo with ALL , can’t be yet for everybody in the world , because most of the time they do not know the existence of this revolutionary system … thanks this big confusion and peoples have create this !

I ask a reflection to all the skydiving communities about this matter …. Adopt this new discipline allows to play the beginners since the start , and that permit to go big in the sky in total safety with a great benefit for the drop Zone operations too ! We are at disposition to everybody want to help this process of REAL and SURE evolution of our SPORT ! Considering also than all the different free fall discipline are performed more and more in the wind-tunnel , especially in hi-level ; Atmonauti is the pure human fly possible ONLY from an airplane (or from a very high cliff of course) . Considering so the increasing of the activities in the Drop Zone (Actually become a FLY ZONE) with : Atmonauti camp (no 1-o-1 necessary!) , Atmonauti big way contact and no contact (WITH EVERYBODY) ; Atmonauti World Record contact and no contact ; ARW Atmonauti Relative Work o Formation Skydiving ( check this ARW 30 POINTS : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM-bHrC32T8 to see the huge potentiality of this new ARW discipline) and many many possible games !
Atmo is what it is, a fun way of flying that resolves issues with burbles in order to better aid flyer interaction
Quote:

True , but actually a lot more … a part the revolutionary theory of the LIFT that you do not want to see , sorry but I have to continuous to remember : Atmonauti Fly with Airplane in 99 , Atmonauti Giglilola Freestyle in 2000 ( the first presentation of the new technique Atmonauti to the world was in freestyle with an amazing complete routine in Atmonauti with completely new manoeuvres !!! … Tandem Atmonauti , many possible games as ARW , RACE , CHALLENGE etc. ) The Atmonauti group jump was the way to transmit easy and for FREE to everybody the new REVOLUTIONARY technique , with the aim of play more and more this incredible new game ( I was not really aspect this negative evolution of the story with protagonist a lot of ex-friends) ! If you try to limit Atmonauti to only this “group basic training” , is just unfair and contribute in the atmonauti-erasing attempt …. And is a mistake that slow down this possible big evolution . So do not write your name more and more in the list of who is trying to slowdown this positive process, from which will take a huge benefit all the Skydiving communities . Do not become famous for this .

About the Atmonauti Feet First the thing is very easy : was not even imaginable before so just considerate impossible ! Ridiculous pretend to define this HUGE THING 100% ATMONAUTI with the existing tracking technique ! Search other arguments if you really want discredit Atmonauti … like this is just too easy for me.

About the word “FLY” , I agree than in skydiving the term is use a bit everywhere (belly fly – sit fly – free fly ) but if you talk with aeronautic engineer or professor they will tell you than technically the word can be use only if in presence of the physic phenomenous of LIFT ! If we want evolve our sport and communicate outside the true , I think that terms and definitions are important , especially if are involved already set up and recognized technical statement : in this case the Lift question !

I think true and correct the origin definition of SKYDIVING : FREE FALL (that’s the way the course Is call AFF) …. Let’s start from here so , trying to use the term Fly with his technical aeronautic vocabulary meaning.

So Newell , I don’t consider very serious technically your definition of the FLY … from A to B , and that every position is FLY … Ask aeronautic engineer !

NB . About the LIFT you affirm fur sure NOT EXISTING , I just tell you than already there are many evidence of this :
1. Vertical speed reducible till around 130 Km/h (80 Miles/h)
2. Visible effect of the Lift watching the rig goin UP and FORWARD
3. Fly time arrive to 80 and more seconds from 14.000 ft ( Double than freefly )
4. Tandem Atmonauti : double weight but same vertical speed never pass the 200 km/h (120 Miles/h)
5. Body feel very light , and is free to move easy and perform different aerial games keeping with extremely precision , the FLYING parameters.

But I can tell you also , than soon will be publishable a University research conduct by Aeronautic engineer and Aeronautic Professor about the Atmonauti theory , with very hi-level software , and I can anticipate than the amount of lift is VEEEEERY significant … ! Stay tuned (…. Soon we will see who LOL for real ) and enjoy Atmo !


Marco Tiezzi
THE REAL HUMAN FLY ATMONAUTI …. THE GAME OF THIRD MILLENNIUM !


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 5, 2011, 1:38 PM
Post #68 of 117 (1612 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
in default know to keep and control head down (same airflow on the body than in atmo … hundred of testimony of this by younger skydivers !

Now you're saying that the way it feels is evidence that the airflow is the same on the body as head down.

Can't you do any better than that?

Even a flat board pushing through the air at an angle of attack has significant lift. That doesn't mean it is anything worth making a big noise about.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jul 5, 2011, 1:40 PM)


Andrewnewell  (No License)

Jul 5, 2011, 2:15 PM
Post #69 of 117 (1603 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool man.

One things for sure your super passionate about Atmo and all the work youve done to create something thats intersting, fun and creative. Fair play. cant knock it. Maybe there something lost in translation here and there but please dont think that what Im saying is that somone else has developed flying in the 'atmo' angles as a specific discipline. Its not that at all. what Im saying is that freeflying as a larger concept covers everything. thats all. obviously we could debate this for ever.

Dude, I look forward to seeing the Evidence for lift. Not being sarcastic either... If its truely the case that lift generated in real terms, then great. Good stuff. Just being sceptical and thats all good.

Maybe Im usng the word Fly in the wrong context. If the word fly can be used only when generating lift then everything else we do outside Atmo is falling?! Rocks droped from a hight 'fall'. are skydivers who are not doing Atmo to be catagorised in the same sense. I would dissagree but then again I dont have access to aeronautical engineers to set me straight.

Dude, feel free to have the last word mate, its all cool. Its not like your out there shooting people. Its only skydiving right, just fun.

Be lucky,

btw, Ive moved on a little since 2004 mate. lol


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 5, 2011, 5:04 PM
Post #70 of 117 (1591 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

The amount of lift will be interesting to see, but the real point that gets ridiculed is the assertion that the trajectory is as shown in the diagram that is still on the websites linked earlier in this thread, and published in Parachutist. Those diagrams showed that your trajectory was with an angle of attack of 0 degrees, even at an angle of about 30 degrees to the horizontal. That is nonsense.

I'm sure it is fun, and challenging, but you need not wonder why there is such ridicule.


Throttlebender  (C 39112)

Jul 5, 2011, 10:18 PM
Post #71 of 117 (1581 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I tend to view that image as more of an exaggerated example, rather than an absolute. I wouldn't hang onto that discrepancy too much if I were you.
Hell, for that matter, go out and test it. I'll even go with you if you want a frame of reference.


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Jul 5, 2011, 10:51 PM
Post #72 of 117 (1579 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The amount of lift will be interesting to see...
Just take a GPS log of jump
Hdistanse/Vdistance or Hspeed/Vspeed at sustained flight of unthrusted aircraft(body) is exact = Lift/Drag

Or we can take one of the Atmo photo with smoke and rough estimate the "glide" angle and L/D (see the pics attached)
http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

So Good tracking (with H/V ratio 1+) gives you a lot of Lift (at least more than can be seen on most Atmo photos)


(This post was edited by NWPoul on Jul 5, 2011, 10:52 PM)
Attachments: AtmoLD.jpg (31.2 KB)
  AtmoLD1.jpg (7.15 KB)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 5, 2011, 11:27 PM
Post #73 of 117 (1574 views)
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Re: [Throttlebender] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I tend to view that image as more of an exaggerated example, rather than an absolute. I wouldn't hang onto that discrepancy too much if I were you.
Hell, for that matter, go out and test it. I'll even go with you if you want a frame of reference.

The claim of that trajectory continues to be made again and again. The ridicule is deserved. It would stop of that pic on the atmo website was changed, or if leading proponents would stop making the claim.


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jul 6, 2011, 7:49 AM
Post #74 of 117 (1532 views)
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Re: [NWPoul] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm... Looks like steep tracking in those pictures. Is the guy on the bottom of the formation atmo-ing and not tracking? Maybe atmo just means you're tracking with smoke on your ankle?

Maybe I just don't understand, I'll probably never be one of these atmosphere navigators then. I'll just have to stick to being an old fashioned fleshy-flap-valve navigator instead Frown Laugh


lurch  (D 27583)

Jul 6, 2011, 9:15 AM
Post #75 of 117 (1514 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

To a hardcore Birdman this debate is bizarre.
2 days ago I was doing "atmo" chasing a fast falling student like a homesick cannonball.

I frequently freefly the suit as well. A steep but slightly angled headdown is a basic tool for catching things in a wingsuit. To me this isn't a separate discipline, its just a maneuver.

A wingsuit can also be effectively sitflown (I call it a "kneelfly") even backwards. You get funny looks when you approach a formation from above, in reverse. Its really just bad sitflying with more fabric than usual and a lot of backslide.

I haven't bothered to invent a catchy name for this stuff. Its all just wingsuit flying. Not many fly their suits this way but I've been flying a long time and I've had time to get bored and creative with it. I know better than to think I'm the first to do this stuff. There are others.

The other day at breakoff I had a LOT of extra speed and used it to execute my own planeless high speed exit at 5K. Planed out flat, got my wings to maximum droop and while I still had speed, rocked back hard on my heels. Result: I went back up a ways. VERY fun rollercoaster zoomy-uppy elevator sensation followed by gradual stall and zero-G hover at the top for a few seconds. Now what the heck do we call THAT... Omta?
-B


michalm21  (Student)

Jul 6, 2011, 10:06 AM
Post #76 of 117 (1813 views)
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Re: [lurch] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

but are you an atmosphere navigator?
Tongue


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Jul 6, 2011, 10:35 AM
Post #77 of 117 (1808 views)
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Re: [lurch] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

A wingsuit can also be effectively sitflown (I call it a "kneelfly") even backwards. You get funny looks when you approach a formation from above, in reverse. Its really just bad sitflying with more fabric than usual and a lot of backslide.

I haven't bothered to invent a catchy name for this stuff.

you could call it AtmoLurchonauti, Lurching around the atmosphere.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 6, 2011, 12:03 PM
Post #78 of 117 (1796 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Atmoflailing


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Jul 6, 2011, 2:04 PM
Post #79 of 117 (1779 views)
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Re: [lurch] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

You could launch your own line of winged atmo-suits ! It would be a revolution in the sport completely redefining skydiving as we know it ! Just imagine all that LIFT ! You have disproven gravity ! An aeronautical physics professor told me so !


lurch  (D 27583)

Jul 6, 2011, 2:37 PM
Post #80 of 117 (1773 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, the tongue in cheek humor in here is getting thick enough to spread on toast.
I see the giant elaborate speeches posted here making such a big deal about revolutions and lift, and these people dont even have wings or any significant lift by Bird standards. There already WAS a major revolution a ways back that introduced actual lift into freefall- wingsuits. I mean, seriously, it just looks like the atmo guys are trying to make an entire discipline's worth of stew out of one very small oyster.
Not to say there isn't a lot to learn about flying at all variations of steepness, just seems really overwrought to be making up all this jargon and debating what is or isn't actually "atmo" or angle flying or how much "tracing" your headdown has to have to qualify as Atmo or whatever its enthusiasts use to justify claims that this flying is new or revolutionary.
As a winger I'm used to covering large distances by default. So seeing a bunch of wingless people quibbling over lift and tracing and angles just kinda seems a bit silly, pardon me. Normally I would never ridicule the passion of another and I won't here, but all the grandiose jargon-loaded elaborate claims of revolutionary status do tend to invite it.
-B


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jul 6, 2011, 3:46 PM
Post #81 of 117 (1789 views)
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Re: [lurch] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

What a great thread. Laugh

I lead back tracking jumps and have done some tracing jumps with Francesco (FCipollo) who's a friend of mine. It is different to tracking and it is different to freeflying. As a concept "free flying" can encapsulate everything, including belly (all orientations remember) but the vast majority of people use the term to describe head down, sit and stand.

To me, the Atmo crowd spreads a message that sounds like scientology but in reality what they seem to be into is angled flight and for several good reasons. They seem to get sidetracked on convincing everyone of amazing benefits and features of autmonauti and it seems to me that they should be focussing on the main benefit: it's fun.

I think as far as the general understanding of freeflying goes, you can be on a head down jump and flip to a sit or a stand without too much trouble, you can't suddenly flip to an angle and expect people to follow along unless you've planned that or talked about it. In a tracing jump you can go head down and it's fine. That says nothing about the definitions of the words at all but more the concepts that people hold in their heads which is really what Francesco is talking about and I understand and agree with him on that. I'm no huge tracing advocate, it's just another fun type of jump that I can do with friends.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jul 6, 2011, 5:19 PM
Post #82 of 117 (1777 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Again that looks like head down flying to me.
Moving formation creates drag thus slowing your vertical speed down.


lurch  (D 27583)

Jul 6, 2011, 7:22 PM
Post #83 of 117 (1764 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, see, that was elegantly put.
These days I'm doing more and more of what might be described as "wingsuit atmo" I.E. sustained skydives at all degrees of dive from flat to 100% headdown, wings either unloaded or reverse loaded because I drifted all the way over and technically now I'm headdown backtracing or something except its also wingsuit headdown backtracing or maybe its really just normal wingsuit backflying except its also headdown. Whatever.

The dynamic begins to feel very tunnellike and develops some bizarre forces on the wings from really weird directions I'm still learning how to handle, but I'm at the point now where I can join the freefly guys if I want, without ditching the wings. Only thing separating me from the rest of the freefly crowd is, I can move in directions and speeds unavailable to everyone else on the dive and even regain a couple hundred feet of altitude at breakoff if I do it right.
We're talking way beyond zero here, same as a high speed exit, you get a massive boosted climb. A wingsuit taken to freefly speeds in a full-blown headdown develops godlike power to change directions.

I actually think the Atmo guys sort of have the right idea except for the scientology-ish presentation. Personally I intend to continue pushing my own efforts in combined wingsuit/freefly/atmo hybrid type dives until I can basically get on any non-RW dive I want with a wingsuit and totally hang with the sitfly and headdown crowd.

If we HAD an Atmo crowd around here I'd be flying with them already, because a wingsuit makes an Atmo dive look like a bunch of one-legged guys running a marathon. No different than chasing a fat guy with bad body position flying an Intro and just as easy to stay with once you get used to the sensations of a wingsuit loaded up in really funny directions.

You got to give the Atmo guys credit, they're making an entire discipline out of what I just thought of as "flock/student pursuit mode", mostly just a way to get somewhere.

I have a group of 4 guys want me to video their Sitfly train from a wingsuit and I will next chance I get, I'll be able to orbit them in orientations and directions that don't even EXIST and divide by zero anytime I damn well feel like it. I didn't do it this time cause we were in the Caribou Boogie and it was an awful crowded sky. With wingsuit freefly you need a couple cubic miles of clear space because you can unexpectedly catapult yourself several miles horizontally in a few seconds from a 160 mph headdown. Last time I did that near others I pissed off Scotty Burns so bad I could hear him furiously bitching me out in freefall so bad I thought he was gonna scorch my feathers off. I'm still a bit embarassed about that one.

-B


marcoT

Jul 6, 2011, 8:11 PM
Post #84 of 117 (1757 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... as more time said , the sketch are INDICATIVE, made for skydiver to understand the 2000 new atmonauti concept! This sketch that you are talking about is to make clear that the airflow goes from the head to the feet , alimenting the "human wing"...

Now , any way ,it's a mistake cut this sketch and post only the bottom part ! In the upper part was indicate how a wing works , so than in the complex, this sketch say that the BODY ACT AS A WING , without go in the detail , but explicate how the wing works :
- different angle of attack ,
- different angle of asset ,
- different speed ;
- the diagram of the different amount of lift related to speed and angle of attack ;
- the explanation of the stall ….

So the arrow of the wind on the body , I repeat , are to make clear the concept than the air ( differently respect was imaginable at that time ) goes from the head to the feet (alimenting the “body wing” ) .
Now is obvious , observing the up representation of the wing , than this airflow will be different in relation of the different typologies and moments of the flights.

In any case , is not enough considering only the asset of the body for determinate the airflow direction , you need take in consideration the SPEED too , actually just the normal aerodinamics concept to be applyed to all the kind of wings .
So that’s why was a big part on this sketch the WING explination .


Actually most of the people I present Atmonauti have not complain about the diagrams , but see the criticism of someone , and open to accept the critique and the different point of view , I have decide to modify the 2 sketch adding some text and some images , with the aim of avoid different interpretation or confusion , and make it clear the original meaning . I hope than can be appreciate , and I’m very happy to receive your feed back.


Quote:
GENFREEFLY : ... paragraphs man. start to utilize paragraphs.
i call them 'atmo-graphs'. i invented them

… try to improve … I start to paragraphs … actually is better …. Great invention !!!
... Thanks for the advise (I’m serious !)
Attachments: schema-Atmo-3- foto.jpg (252 KB)
  Atmo-LIFT-text.jpg (291 KB)


lurch  (D 27583)

Jul 6, 2011, 9:16 PM
Post #85 of 117 (1750 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate to say it but the pics you put up look an awful lot like people without wingsuits flying like they had wingsuits combined with Timecube, which can be found here:

http://www.timecube.com/

Are you sure you don't really just wanna get a wingsuit?
-B


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 6, 2011, 9:26 PM
Post #86 of 117 (1750 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Your second attachment still shows the same ridiculous claim that you are getting lift at a zero angle of attack.

In reply to:
the sketch are INDICATIVE, made for skydiver to understand

No, it is not indicative, it is wrong. I suggest that many simply find the sketch to be ridiculous. For others that don't know any better, you are telling them to believe something that is not true. That is not a good thing in any way.

Why is it necessary to show this incorrectly? Explaining your way of having fun in the air is not aided by this misrepresentation. It takes away from the big picture you are trying to explain, because people will think atmo flyers are delusional. I suggest that you give on this point, as there is no good reason to knowingly have such a false diagram - it does not help others to understand. That understanding can be achieved without the false diagram.


marcoT

Jul 6, 2011, 10:14 PM
Post #87 of 117 (1739 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

ok , understand .. some one will never change their negative attitude !!!
Really no problem ... especially in this case , because be ridiculed by someone that say with incredible sure than at 0 angle of attack there is no lift , sincerely make me happy , because put in evidence the total incompetence of who are talking so bad against atmonauti ...

More than one time in the atmonauti discussions people with more aerodynamics knowledge have confirm that can exist lift also at 0 angle of attack !!!!

Exist people that in front a white thing still affirm that is black .... their problem

I defenelly don't care to convince this kind of people .... I'm sure the majority of who read know and understand very well what I'm saying.

There is people that want to try doing something positive , and people that want just destroyed and vandalize what do not like .... I don't care to be considerate delusional by this people , sure than there is many others that thinks the reverse and appreciates our effort ... Every day there is more and more people flying atmonauti in the world ..... and this is the important !


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 6, 2011, 11:14 PM
Post #88 of 117 (1729 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
More than one time in the atmonauti discussions people with more aerodynamics knowledge have confirm that can exist lift also at 0 angle of attack !!!!

You can get such lift due to the shape of a wing, and the rig can provide that shape to an extent. However, you atmonuts also atmoflail around on your back, so the rig wouldn't be helping in that regard. In order to get lift in that instance, you would indeed need an angle of attack.

In reply to:
Exist people that in front a white thing still affirm that is black .... their problem

I defenelly don't care to convince this kind of people .... I'm sure the majority of who read know and understand very well what I'm saying.

In your previous post, I thought that by admitting the picture was "INDICATIVE", that you were acknowledging that it wasn't true. Now you seem to be backpedaling on that. I don't know why. That diagram is a prime reason for the ridicule.

I'm sure it is fun, and quite challenging. You are wrong to think I want to destroy/vandalize what you have developed (except for a couple of atmo-insults, it is hard to resist).

In reply to:
Exist people that in front a white thing still affirm that is black .... their problem

You're the one having trouble with the facts. Again, I thought you had acknowledged that,

In reply to:
Every day there is more and more people flying atmonauti in the world ..... and this is the important !

Great for having fun in the sky. I also think it is important to not misrepresent the facts.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jul 6, 2011, 11:16 PM)


Frankyspanky

Jul 7, 2011, 1:09 AM
Post #89 of 117 (1716 views)
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Re: [lurch] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I hate to say it but the pics you put up look an awful lot like people without wingsuits flying like they had wingsuits combined with Timecube, which can be found here:

http://www.timecube.com/

Are you sure you don't really just wanna get a wingsuit?
-B

Ad hominem attacks are not very intellegent. You could be positive in your approach or you could be negative.

The choice is yours but that type of post does nothing for your credibility.

For the brigade of ribbers...
grow the fuck up will ya...

LOL.

Atmo is awesome, and if you lot are not into it, and are not contributing to the conversation... go and have your own conversation eslwhere will ya.Wink


(This post was edited by Frankyspanky on Jul 7, 2011, 1:12 AM)


marcoT

Jul 7, 2011, 8:03 AM
Post #90 of 117 (1680 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I read again the word “TRACE” or “TRACING” ….

Somebody affirm that is a NEW and DIFFERENT technique related to Atmonauti , because is more fast (?!?) … So when I was flying with the Porter , or when I was fly the freestyle (faster position , see the pictures) with Gigliola , I was “TRACING” and not use the just discover NEW ATMONAUTI TECHNIQUE !!! And again , when you make an head down faster without docs (as in the beautiful Chronicle 3 Nectar jumps with Mike Wail hi-speed) you do not define a new technique with another name …. You are define that “FAST HEAD DOWN” …. No something different with another technique that need other definitions !!! 100% the same technique !
Te facts and the true are very different : I can tell to who affirm this statement about “TRACE” , that for sure in 1999 when we was fly Amonauti with the airplane (with doc too) , or in the Gigliola fast positions free style , even the word "Trace" was not existing !!! ... Is another evident attempt of use the Technique Atmonauti with other names , trying someone do not recognize Atmonauti and put on it his definition ! Any way history is too clear in the matter ....

And in any case , admitting that I’m wrong , the question are :
- Can somebody explicate what it is ?
- What the difference respect Atmonauti ( not say highest speed … we already demonstrate with facts , than the first presentation of Atmonauti was in fast Gigliola freestyle positions , fast flying with the airplane … check the pictures in the previous post-attach )
- Who create ““Trace”” and when ?
- Where we can found the theory of “Trace”, and the angles explanation ?
- Where we can found articles , pictures , explination made by his creator about the “Trace” ?

There is somebody that can answer this question with some concrete argumentation ?

To add elements in the evaluation of who read , I will tell this story : in 2004 we were at Perris with the X-team and we have made a lot of atmo flights , also in no contact with highest speed . One time , for trying different style , we did one jump of this supposed “Babylon Trace style” lead by Stefan Fardel : after the exit , here we go with a perfect fast atmo-flight with no contact … I was behind all the other guys flying on the back , I come up to Fardel and I take a double hands dock in both of his feet , flying till the break off . After the landing with all the team together , Eli and the other guys congratulate with me for the dock and I say to Stefan : “Nice Atmonauti jump this Trace” and he answered embarrassed : “Yes of course” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!…..

Actually is from long time that somebody try to rename Atmonauti with other definitions … (this confirm the 100% validity of the theory ! ) so than finally today , the operation of trying to use the technique hiding and ridicule Atmonauti , come in a crucial phase …

In the attach , any way , you can observe what I’m talking ….

And again : far from me try to convince who see a black thing also if is white …. The important are the thousands of people understand very well this evidence (not just word , as for who discredit atmonauti) !
Are very significative the private message I receive from the people who read , that I can understand , do not want expose their selves sure to be attack and isolate by the atmo-destroyer …. Mostly they thank me for my effort , and they are embarrassed to see so much derespect and so much negative attitude ….

To them I say : ask you why exist from 12 years a system that allows to learn fast in a very cheap way , that is ridiculize and keep it hide at the community , by someone offering expensive 1-o-1 coaching ???!!!

Remember : Atmonauti have no copyright , no trade mark , no royalties … just a system explicate and evidently offer to the community FOR FREE from year 2000 ! … You can Learn by yourself reading the texts and observing the thousands of video public from 2000 (… the aim was play in a massive dimension this great new possibilities , allows the hi-level flyers playing in the base with complex typologies of games and allows the beginners to join the flights more on the outside , learning the technique in a very safe way !!!!) …. Someone have learn the technique in the beginning , and now is trying to ridiculize or hide Atmonauti to put on it his definition …. Very unfair , and perfect to confuse the ideas of who are learning ! I repeat : ask you why they are play this unfair game .

Somebody still affirm that Atmonauti is like “scientology religion” , but If I do not remember wrong , those person were asking money to people …. Here the question is the exactly reverse … Ask you in which side so is the “scientology” attitude ….. Any way this “religion” , as somebody try to relegate atmonauti , have permit a lot of amazing new possibilities , offered to the community for FREE …. I’m not sure this “religion” argumentation will have many fans.

So waiting the “TRACE” documents , let’s continue the work to inform correctly the people without just words.

Enjoy the huge possibilities of the technique Atmonauti !
Attachments: atmonauti - trace.jpg (88.0 KB)


yeyo  (D 32048)

Jul 7, 2011, 9:01 AM
Post #91 of 117 (1670 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember when I started to read about this Atmonauti thing. I was new to the sport and had no idea what you guys were talking about. But I remember many people asking for GPS data and I still haven't seen any. Can you please provide some?
Now we do a lot of this kind of jumps at my home DZ, but we just call it steep tracking.

So, can we see the GPS data? I'll lend you my Wintec or my Flysight if you need it.


lurch  (D 27583)

Jul 7, 2011, 9:29 AM
Post #92 of 117 (1663 views)
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Re: [Frankyspanky] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright, I'll be more positive then.

That wasn't an attack so much as a humorous observation... The objective was to point out that the whole thing has become rather over-the-top.

The reason so much ribbing is happening here is because of the excessive and often inaccurate ways Atmo is being presented which does even less for -their- credibility.

Making a big deal out of what little lift anyone is generating at a 45 degree angle and claiming that flying around the effect is some kind of massive sport-changing revolution in skydiving is what causes the atmo enthusiasts to be taken less than seriously.

I'd be into Atmo if it were done around here because as I said, I've been playing around with variations on linear-airflow type skydives and they're an absolute blast. Up and Down start becoming very relative concepts. Flying anywhere within about a 90 degree wide cone from true headdown vertical opens up some VERY thrilling possibilities for movement in unusual speeds and directions relative to others on the dive.

Since its not truly linear airflow once you tilt off vertical what you get is a situation where the relative wind's direction is always head to foot but the planar airflow you're "leaning" on can come from either front or back depending on which way you're facing and which way you tilt relative to vertical.

To me this beats hell out of plain old headdown because its a lot less static and introduces strong side forces making for a VERY dynamic skydive.

If they wanna promote Atmo, cool, I'd like to see more creative jumping happening. But promote it for the fun factor and with actual accurate descriptions of the things you can do. Putting up incoherent and inaccurate charts and complicated wacky jargon full of grandiose claims that does look like it was taken straight off a crackpot website is the problem.

Seriously, the image they project is so out to lunch I'd be embarassed to admit I WAS actually doing atmo just because I wouldn't want to be associated with the hype they put out. I'd just tell people I'm doing a bunch of steep dives to explore diagonal stuff and leave out all the noise.
-B


winnt

Jul 7, 2011, 2:47 PM
Post #93 of 117 (1632 views)
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Re: [yeyo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.... I remember many people asking for GPS data and I still haven't seen any.
Hmmmm,
you've been in sport for 6 years and you're so radical with your thoughts?? You've never seen it, therefore it probably never existed?

There used to be a kind of fun competition called "Tracking Derby" and some of the best performers we've seen so far said they were using an angle instead of being parallel to the ground with FS suit
http://www.skydiveempuriabrava.com/...-TRACKING_DERBY.html
I'll let you do the online search for datas on some DZ

I am not a flyer, just a simple guy... I just ask skydivers to be cool, open your mind, travel a lot and meet other skydivers and discover new stuffs. And if someone said he has invented something, so what?? just cool and get a beer after the sunset.

Talking about the lift, thanks to the tunnels, I think a lot of folks here particularly pro flyers are able today to fly vertical at a very low speed (that simply impossible for most of us). I just consider the pictures shown above as a sketch trying to explain if you do that then you will considerably reduce your vertical speed and go farther (Then wingsuit flyer will say just come with us and you will fly for 3 minutes Wink And another guy will tell you with two mini engines you can even go up and stay in the sky fo an hour )


yeyo  (D 32048)

Jul 7, 2011, 3:17 PM
Post #94 of 117 (1626 views)
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Re: [winnt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

What are you, his lawyer?
Where did I said it never existed? I just said I havent seen it.
And Im not talking about the tracking derby. A solo jump focused on performance is not the same as a "atmonauti" group jump.
Why is so difficult for him to provide GPS data? He has spent years experimenting with that.
Something like: "Hey, heres the GPS file of an atmo 4way, and we did 8 points". Hes done hundreds of those, shouldnt be too hard to share some data. Crazy


winnt

Jul 7, 2011, 5:10 PM
Post #95 of 117 (1611 views)
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Re: [yeyo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok,
sorry I don't know nothing about the so called atmonauti but the name.
As Simon Bones said on the first page, I personnaly call any 3D flying a Free Fly Cool ....

But really, nowadays, with new techniques, do you really need a GPS data to see the displacements of angle flying?? You can see a lot of amazing stuffs from skydive sebastian. I invite you to go up there and integrate a group with your own gps.

As I am concerned, I don't like competition nor points, just fun

There are a lot of big clouds at my place so I love angle flying (between, around or just parallel to the clouds) and today you have a lot of guys who master blind carving in tunnel, they just rock the sky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj4h1yG6OGA
simply Freefly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxMJvlu4VfQ


yeyo  (D 32048)

Jul 7, 2011, 5:40 PM
Post #96 of 117 (1605 views)
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Re: [winnt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In reply to:
... You can see a lot of amazing stuffs from skydive sebastian. I invite you to go up there and integrate a group with your own gps.


Thanks for the invite man Smile
Heres 2 jumps from my last time there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJq4c-TM3Ak


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jul 7, 2011, 8:23 PM
Post #97 of 117 (1589 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly don't care what people call it. The semantics are of little value in the overall discussion about what's possible in freefall. Who invented it and when is really of no concern to me, just as who invented head down and when doesn't really concern me either.

The discussion about free fall (it's falling guys, we're not flying) techniques is really interesting and has a lot of value but please stop getting hung up on the names. When I say "Trace" you can substitute "Atmonauti" in its place because they're the same thing to me.

The only difference is "Atmonauti" has a bunch of stigma attached to it (in some parts of the world) because of the way it's sold to people as the second coming where as "Tracing" does not.

To clarify, I'm just as happy to go on an Atmonauti jump as a Tracing jump because they're the same thing *as far as I'm concerned*.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Jul 7, 2011, 8:25 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 11, 2011, 10:29 AM
Post #98 of 117 (1467 views)
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Re: [genfreefly] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh


Zenister  (A 42)

Jul 11, 2011, 10:13 PM
Post #99 of 117 (1437 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What makes it harder in the US is that no one does it but it doesn't matter.
like not Gabe Matta at SDAZ ? (for example)

Zoom Zoom! Bitches!

much less clichish than 'atmonauti'


Vertifly  (D 27236)

Aug 14, 2011, 6:32 PM
Post #100 of 117 (1263 views)
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Re: [marcoT] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

We got your prime pilots that get all the hot skydives, and we got your pud-knockers who dream about getting the hot skydives. Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have? Huh?

Gimme a break dude. Go and do about 100 angle jumps, then come back and talk.

To quote myself from June of 2003, "Re: [sundevil777] Problem with atmonauti article in parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Atmonauti has a good deal of characteristics about it which seperate its kind of flying from head-down flocking and flat fly tracking. Don't knock it until you try it - that is, try docking on a 4-way atmonauti base. It may not be as easy as you think.

If you get the angle right when flying, the 45º (+ or - a few) that the article mentions...then you may be able to note that it is a lot more sensitive to vertical adjustments and horizontal ones as well. Dialing in a two way dock can even be quite challenging without ample time in the sky. I am not talk about a fly up and grab; more of a fly over to your slot and calmly dock. It is just different...dialing in a steady and slow dock is a completely different story. It takes a lot more discipline imo.

The airspeed across your body (head to toe) is greater than tracking and very close to that of flocking. And this is the foundation which makes the dynamic more difficult. Because those who do it, I would guess only because I do, don't want to just move forward (although that is quite fun within itself)...we want to 360 turn, dock, change position, carve, go feet first, transition, and all the other fun stuff too.

In addition, the possibility of horizontal distance being greater than vertical distance...hmmm, not sure about that really. It doesn't make me laugh though; it just makes me think about - how could that be true? Never considered it. But greater distances are obtained in atmonauti than from tracking. If it is true, it is likely to be caused by the arch in body position (i believe the arch may cause more lift).

So I tend to understand where the writer was coming from. Please take a second to note that on these jumps the freeflyers are very hooked over on their backs or stomachs - this will provide a subtle lift - and at those speeds, a true 45º vector (or more) may be possible.

I've only got about 130 of these types of jumps under my belt now and continue to experiment everytime I get to the DZ. I, for one, hope the phenomenon continues to grow - it'll set your fuckin hair on fire if you do it right....and that ain't no shit."

~The Hooch


mchamp  (D 32129)

Aug 17, 2011, 8:44 PM
Post #101 of 117 (1757 views)
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Re: [Vertifly] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Some "particular" flying! lol

http://www.youtube.com/...MI&feature=feedu


(This post was edited by mchamp on Aug 17, 2011, 8:45 PM)


Dutton  (D 15542)

Aug 29, 2011, 7:42 AM
Post #102 of 117 (1586 views)
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice.

Looks like fun, and that's all that matters to me.


mchamp  (D 32129)

Aug 30, 2011, 9:23 PM
Post #103 of 117 (1525 views)
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In all this debate/discussion regarding tracking/atmonauti/angle flying I never came across anyone specifying stats in reference to distance.

In a perfect world a person who is let's say for example 5'10 and 170lbs or 77kg and flying in exact wind speeds and exiting along with pulling at the exact same altitude, which would go further in terms of horizontal distance?

Would steeper go farther or would flatter cover more horizontal distance or perhaps a combination of both like during break off in HD flying and repeating the cycle till pull time? My theory would be flatter but I'm just guessing and have no data or math to back it up.


winnt

Sep 13, 2011, 3:28 PM
Post #104 of 117 (1401 views)
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi all,
check out the bonus jump in this link (between 2:10 and 3:10) Smile
It's awesome even if most of the flyers there were not perfect at negotiating two consecutive turns Wink


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B82p-O4R3aQ


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 13, 2011, 4:42 PM
Post #105 of 117 (1391 views)
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Re: [winnt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi all,
check out the bonus jump in this link (between 2:10 and 3:10) Smile
It's awesome even if most of the flyers there were not perfect at negotiating two consecutive turns Wink


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B82p-O4R3aQ

Very cool tracking dive. Was the video edited to add "jittery" motion?


hparrish  (D 25090)

Sep 13, 2011, 8:14 PM
Post #106 of 117 (1387 views)
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Re: [winnt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome Video............I think the 2012 World Record is going to happen Quickly. Great Talent in Europe.


DivingWombat  (B License)

Nov 25, 2011, 11:15 AM
Post #107 of 117 (1251 views)
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Re: [hparrish] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read through all these Atmonauti posts and without beiing an expert I can certainly say that a lot of you are posting just bullshit. It's a lot about ego at has nothing to do with reality.

My proposal: Take a normal track diver or "flocking" diver and a guy who really is an atmonauti-expert (like MarcoT). Equipp both with a GPS and altitrack. Let them jump and see who will make how much horizontal distance. You can easily calculate angle, horizontal and vertical airspeed etc.

Then you can really judge whether you can compare tracking/flocking and atmonauti.

Before anybody has done such research you should really stop posting BS and stay hooked on your egoshit. The americans invented and perfected hell a lot of stuff but you should consider that maybe just sometimes it is possible that people from abroad might be able to develop something before you did so.

cheers
Mo.


hookitt  (D License)

Nov 28, 2011, 2:55 PM
Post #108 of 117 (1186 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Angry much Wink

That was rather fun to read. I don't care what it's called but you're right, some of it is bullshit because it's not true! ... but some of it is. It's all flying and it's great.

Tracking correctly will give more distance, Atmoflocking or whatever you wish to call it is performed relative to other Atmoflockmonuts and can be very fun, dynamic, and extremely challenging. It can be slow speed or high speed. Precise or not so precise. Tracing and multi directional changes are fun as hell and quite challening to stay close to a fast leader.

It's all a form of tracking really. Steep or flat or somewhere in between. Doing it well is another form of bodyflight at it's finest. Smile

Ps: Atmoflocking and Atmoflockmonaut. I made the name up but did not invent it.


(This post was edited by hookitt on Nov 28, 2011, 2:58 PM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 28, 2011, 3:19 PM
Post #109 of 117 (1178 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I made the name up

You should trademark it... Wink


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 28, 2011, 6:37 PM
Post #110 of 117 (1168 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Atmoflockmonaut
LaughLaughLaugh


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 30, 2011, 12:23 AM
Post #111 of 117 (1107 views)
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Re: [Remster] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I made the name up

You should trademark it... Wink
That's what i was going to say, copy write it Timmae Wink


piisfish

Dec 1, 2011, 8:23 AM
Post #112 of 117 (1062 views)
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vn0dnoj9RU fastmonauti-plane combination Smile


mchamp  (D 32129)

Jan 31, 2012, 3:59 AM
Post #113 of 117 (923 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

I FINALLY GET IT! So this is what atmonauti is.....producing lift right? WinkWink

http://www.youtube.com/...youtube_gdata_player


zerospinskier  (B License)

May 1, 2012, 12:51 PM
Post #114 of 117 (754 views)
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Re: [FCipollo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread is hilarious.

It reminds me of the internet arguments in freeskiing where people fight about if a trick was a rodeo, flat, misty, or bio rotation. Because it is so important to figure it out!

All I know is that this looks like a lot of fun, and I want to learn how to jump out of the plane and do this:

In reply to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-GdLZ96xCg


yeyo  (D 32048)

May 1, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #115 of 117 (747 views)
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Re: [zerospinskier] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This thread is hilarious.

It reminds me of the internet arguments in freeskiing where people fight about if a trick was a rodeo, flat, misty, or bio rotation. Because it is so important to figure it out!

All I know is that this looks like a lot of fun, and I want to learn how to jump out of the plane and do this:

In reply to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-GdLZ96xCg


...but thats 2yrs old!
this is last month:
http://vimeo.com/...m_campaign=adminclip


Andrewnewell  (No License)

Jun 15, 2012, 4:23 AM
Post #116 of 117 (553 views)
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Re: [yeyo] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But I can tell you also , than soon will be publishable a University research conduct by Aeronautic engineer and Aeronautic Professor about the Atmonauti theory , with very hi-level software , and I can anticipate than the amount of lift is VEEEEERY significant … ! Stay tuned (…. Soon we will see who LOL for real ) and enjoy Atmo !

maybe I missed it. Its been almost a year, did anything ever come of this statement? has someone on here got some data about the claims of significant lift through 'atmo' or 'Tracking'? Im currently working on something and would greatly appreciate it someone could point me the the direction of some solid evidence.

cheers,

Andy


flipper  (D 11524)

Jun 15, 2012, 5:22 AM
Post #117 of 117 (542 views)
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Re: [mchamp] Angle Flying/Atmonauti [In reply to] Can't Post

looks like fun



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