This one won't be around long and I am surprised someone posted it. I am not affiliated with anyone in this video and have nothing to gain or lose by posting the link. That being said, this is the second video I have seen in a short time period in which someone chases their student until AAD fire.
Wow.
Edited to fix the clicky.
(This post was edited by Zymurdoo on Jun 10, 2011, 10:00 PM)
Jun 11, 2011, 5:18 AM
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What a great illustration of letting yourself get fucked over by life on a student skydive.
Am I the only one who noticed that the students leg straps were loose? I could see in between the straps and his legs as he was 'trying' to climb out?
Also, what sort of instructor gives the student a 'thumb up' while the student is both not in a good body position and look straight down (and the instructor is 20+ feet away)?
How about tapping the guy on top of the head to get his attention? Who taught that hand signal?
Speaking of those hand signals, who noticed the cuff of the instructor jumpsuit? Looks like baggy, heavy material for a student who appears to be a 'larger' fellow.
Of course, aside from losing the student, not being able to chase him worth a damn with the result being a pair of AAD fires, that jackass posts the video online and thinks it's cool that his Protrack reported a 300ft opening altitude.
How do these people become instructors and why do we let them stay instructors?
Jun 11, 2011, 5:46 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Just watching the attempt at a climb-out, I have trouble believing that student had progressed to solo exits. If that was the case, we can add the instructors poor management of the student near the door to the list of fuck ups. The guy was nowhere near the student, and the jump started off bad becuse the student was allowed to fail the exit and fall out of the plane uncontrolled.
Yes, the student recovered, but barely. If the instructor had grips on the exit, he could have thrown visible hand signals and corrected the body position issue long before releasing them. That guy was certainly not due a 'thumbs up' at any point, exit, freefall, pull time, or otherwise.
Of course, the guy might have progressed to solo exit, and the instructor would have been in the correct slot at that point (with regards to aircraft position, once he left the plane, the instructor was never in the right place again).
Quote:
Damn, those leg straps are pretty freaking loose.
Yeah. Wonder how it felt to be spinning on your back, falling too fast for your instructor to keep up and then have your AAD fire with those loose legstraps.
Quality instruction and customer service, who needs them?
Jun 11, 2011, 5:55 AM
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I have no idea what this was. A friend shared it from his Facebook page.
I have had the "How far would you chase your student?" conversation with almost every instructor I have met. My conclusions is if the jump is going that poorly and the student has gotten away from you you need to pull at or before your hard deck. My (untested) theory is that if you want the student to pull, seeing their instructor deploy should set the wheels in motion.
Jun 11, 2011, 6:18 AM
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WOW!!!! talk about a good example of what NOT to do......
I'd say the trouble STARTED ..... IN the classroom.....
the first person who exited was also in a terrible position unless the intention was to Sit...
the guy in orange looked like an uncertain and scared Static Line student.. who could not even grab the strut!!!!! If one jumps at a cessna DZ hopefully they know HOW to climb out onto the step...
OK... sorry.... i'll be a bit more kind.. since i'm guessing the guy is about as big a NEWBIE,, as you'll find... ( OR he's an oldster, who's doing a re-cert ) he DOES (finally) put his hand down near The PC handle.. but then simply Leaves it there !! ... for a DAmn long time.... that sure couldn't have been that persons' ' first jump.... how in the world can you reach...... and then NOT pull.....???...
I'm not an instructor, though years ago worked with students Often AND successfully.... waaayyyy before such things as Tandem , AFF , and Coaching..... ( i have far to much to Lose, today, to risk working in any capacity in this sport, other than as a camera )
Can't believe that any decent AFF instructor, OR coach,,, could watch the guy laying there and NOT pulling,,,, and simply go along for the view !!!.... the only thing that triggered the Pull for the instructor, was seeing the reserve fire... and THEN the "experienced guy" pulls his MAIN.... instead of his reserve??? Not very Tuned in, i'd say..... he really should have Known what the altitude was and if seeing an AAD fire triggers one to pull his main.. that is certainly begging for the 2 out... Shouldn't the student be using an AAD which is set to Fire waaay above a grand????? ... awfully short canopy(s) ride for the instructor.... so i'm wondering about t he AAD the student was using.... could this have been a Recurrency Jump? and was "the student' using an AAD set for 750 feet... But HEY!!!!! at least the instructor was wearing a camera!!!... right???
yikes..
Very interesting video... glad that nobody got killed....
jt
(This post was edited by jimmytavino on Jun 11, 2011, 9:50 AM)
Jun 11, 2011, 6:40 AM
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(SPECULATION) When I first watched this video, I was thinking re currency jump of an older jumper. His rig is large but doesn't appear to be a student set-up. "Student" is wearing gloves when neither of the other jumpers on the load are. We don't usually give our students gloves unless the OAT suggests it. The person who indicated that they opened at 300' is not listed on Skydive New Mexico's staff page but does come up in a Google search as a skydive videographer.
Maybe the skydiver who posted this to Facebook will show up and make a clarifying comment.
Jun 11, 2011, 8:48 AM
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"Wow" doesn't begin to cover that...
What was this anyway, AFF or coach jump?
Either way, fail. And those riggers deserve a bottle!
From the comments on fb: "Matt went out as a coach on this jump and it appears to me that an AFF instructor would have been more correct."
If this was someone freshly off AFF and not someone who was doing a recurrency jump it also raises the question of who cleared them to jump solo.
I often see newer jumpers on dz.com voice frustration for having to repeat an AFF level and I think this video is a perfect example of why that can be justified. Better to repeat a level or two than be cleared to jump solo, go do a coach jump with someone, and throw them a curveball like this jump.
Also, a good video for anyone who thinks that they want to start doing coach jumps because then they get "free jumps." As someone said in another thread, you work hard for those jumps.
Jun 11, 2011, 10:03 AM
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checking back here to read further comments, i realize that i made the assumption that the subject jumper had an AAD fire...based on the quick flash of the freebag bridle , as the canopy opened. i KNEW it was a reserve and just 'figured' it was an AAD that initiated it...
But,,,, It IS possible that the jumper pulled the reserve himself....can THAT be verified???
Do we even KNOW if his rig was AAD equipped... If he WAS doing a re currency jump, and depending on his "vintage" in the sport.. It IS possible that the rig wasn't AAD equipped...
for SURE though, the coaches was......cause i doubt that he pulled his main ANd his reserve himself..
they were in freefall for a long damn time. nearly a minute..Not likely that the cessna was above 12 grand??? is it??? gotta stay altitude aware..right??? another issue which is usually emphasized.... IN the classroom... re-cert. or otherwise.
Jun 11, 2011, 3:37 PM
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I've watched the video several times. And it is just scary.
1. A student(?) who is very insecure (you can see that, as he tries to grab the strud). 2. loose legstraps (as mentioned above). 3. He's somehow stable but never a "thumbs up". 4. As he tries to grab his hand deploy (at 1:10) he turns into a dive until his AAD fires(?) / reserve deploys at 1:24
--> That is 14 seconds of freefall, so that's about 700 m / 2200 ft (since i've been taught 170 ft/sec // 50 m/sec at terminal velocity) Given that and a AAD firing altitude of ~350 m that means a waveoff altitude of about 1000 m / 3000 ft.
So he should be 1000 m AGL at 1:10 and quite far away of the instructor.
Question: Is it possible that the instructor can/could reach a student who is that far away as at 1:10 within less than 14 sec. Or is it impossible so that the instructor should have deployed his parachute right away!?
Jun 11, 2011, 4:06 PM
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I was on site when this event ocurred.
First off realize that the video is shot with a wide angle lens, which makes things look further away then they actually are.
The jumper was NOT a student, he was a D-licensed skydiver who had been out of the sport for eighteen years. This was his second jump back; he had made a recurrency jump the week before but had been a little wiggy (bad exit, not great freefall stability) so it was suggested he jump with a coach again.
I believe the dive plan was simple posied exit (unasisted; as this was recurrency he needed to display exit stability on his own), straight freefall maintaining heading control and altitude awareness, wave off, track, and deploy at the correct altitude.
When he rolled on his back at pull time, he became disoriented and made a conscious decision to do nothing further and wait for the AAD to fire. He landed under the reserve uneventfully.
The coach became focused on the jumper and lost altitude awareness, pulling his own main too late. His AAD fired his reserve and he landed with two out flying in a biplane.
After the event, the seriousness of the situation was discussed with the jumper and he decided on his own that he wasn't on top of things enough to return to the sport. He has not returned since this jump.
The coach, who is actually a very good skydiver with well over 1000 jumps and a couple years coaching experience, voluntarily gave up his rating. He was very shaken by the experience and does NOT think it's cool, as some of you have indicated. He actually did not jump for a few months after this incident. He posted the video because it is a valuable learning experience for those of us who jump with students.
It is very easy to Monday morning quarterback a situation like this. If you wish to learn something productive from this, it is that you MUST take care of yourself when dealing with students. When it's pull time, pull, period. I know a great many instructors who have had similar situations at some point in their careers. It can happen to you unless YOU prevent it.
Another lesson I'll add is that even though somebody might be a licensed skydiver with hundreds or thousands of jumps, if they have been out of the sport for a long time then you'd better be prepared for anything. Not only do people forget but they get older, which can change things dramatically. In this instance the jumper was in his sixtees, maybe seventies. Even though he had once been an experienced skydiver, he clearly was overwhelmed with the basic aspects of our sport when he tried to return.
(This post was edited by polarbear on Jun 11, 2011, 7:00 PM)
Jun 11, 2011, 7:08 PM
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Based on what I see in the video and what I recall from the discussion afterwards, the jumper reached for his handle and could not find it. Instead of reach once, reach twice, go to your reserve, he only reached once and could not find his handle. He stayed in the pull position for several seconds, eventually dipping his shoulder and rolling on his back. He never made any attempt at pulling his reserve; as stated earlier he consciously chose to wait for the AAD.
(This post was edited by polarbear on Jun 11, 2011, 7:11 PM)
Jun 11, 2011, 8:31 PM
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Quote:
hope it is a lesson for anyone going for a rating
That's exactly why the video was posted. I myself am a relatively new coach; even though I have nearly 3000 jumps I am still sometimes caught by surprise with the things that happen on instructional jumps.
Jun 11, 2011, 9:22 PM
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video pulled down already. hate to have something like this up that people could learn from. Too risky to someone's pride or their feelings getting hurt by something someone might say.
Jun 11, 2011, 10:15 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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We didn't either, which is why he was encouraged to give things a real good thinking over before he jumped again. Fortunately the technology saved him and gave him the opportunity to decide how to deal with it.
Jun 12, 2011, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
We didn't either, which is why he was encouraged to give things a real good thinking over before he jumped again. Fortunately the technology saved him and gave him the opportunity to decide how to deal with it.
Just wondering - do you guys have a tunnel in your area? I believe spending 30-60 minutes in the tunnel drilling freefall stability can seriously help anyone who is coming back to skydiving after a long break. I know being unstable was not the only reason for such curveball, but it can make things easier.
Jun 12, 2011, 6:50 AM
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Put it on youtube so everyone can see it. Not everyone has, or wants, a facebook account.
I wouldn't either. Don't have the permission of the content owner, they could possibly take you to court over it, minimum it would get pulled from youtube.
Jun 12, 2011, 7:16 AM
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looks to me like that 'student' does a perfect pull of an old school ripcord like he did years ago, but it doesnt work of course. then he kind of gives up completely... on surviving !! WTF ???? also looks like he fell from the plane, as opposed to doing any kind of aircraft exit. I cannot believe the videos that show people 'waiting' for the AAD to fire !
Jun 12, 2011, 12:12 PM
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As per usual everyone knows exactly what was going on and why it all went bad. Hey assholes the student was not chased to the ground. He was observed to be headed into the ground. But as I said "per usual' everyone here seems to have an asshole, uh I mean an opinion. It was posted so folks can learn from mistakes made, you ass wipes. Have you nothing better to do. It was not a claim to fame. Seriously 300 feet is nothing one should brag about. It was an answer to a question butthead. Oh but wait you all know everything. Jesus even critiquing the first jumper's exit. You all most just be the most awesome error free bunch of skydiving gods known to man. Fuck you all if you can't learn from other's mistake then just fuck you.....
Jun 12, 2011, 3:43 PM
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wow
that's a helluva First post, here.....
please do not call me, or others, ass wipes.... very poor form...All people have done is comment on the video, which was posted here....
the comments seem pretty tame, and mostly accurate, considering what we were able to SEE,,, before the link closed down....Are YOU the coach/ video person???
did you Expect to be applauded for what that video showed???
YES.. you are correct.. there are LOTS of posts, videos and pictures which are here in order to "help others learn from mistakes made". and there were more than few made here... by Both parties....Any explanation why the camera person would WATCH a reserve fire,,, and then Pull his Own MAIN???? (virtually assuring a two -out???) , instead of just going to Silver???
Can't speak for others, though i bet that Like me,, they are NOT "the most awesome error free bunch of skydiving gods known to man".... Never have been , Never will be.... ( If you KNEW some of us, you'd never make such an innaccurate statement.)
We sure CAN , learn from others mistakes, and both the parties involved here , made a bunch of 'em...
as for "just fuck you"...... wow.. awfully thin skin there, friend... best to calm down a bit.. OH and YES.. case of beer !!!!! for your First post at DZ Dot Com.....
Jun 13, 2011, 8:56 AM
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Quote:
As per usual everyone knows exactly what was going on and why it all went bad.
I know that the student didn't recieve a proper gear check prior to exit, or those legstraps would have been properly tightened.
I know that the coach gave a useless thumbs up when the student didn't deserve it, was too far away, and was looking down.
I know that the coach was wearing a baggy suit, and unless he was a very big guy, he didn't dress for success, as evidenced by his inability to stay with the larger student.
I know that the coach failed in his responsibility to track away at break off and pull at a safe altitude.
Don't get mad at me for simply identifying mistakes that were made. I didn't create these problems, I just pointed them out.
If you want to get mad, how about start with the AFF I who passed this jumper to a coach after an admittedly unsatisfactory re-certification jump. The correct move would have been to keep the jumper with a qualified instructor, one that was taught to catch, stabilize and pull for a student, until such time that the jumper could display control of themselves in freefall.
Then get mad at the coach who got in way over his head, and made several mistakes it the process.
Getting mad at the guy who simply points these things out might make you feel better, but in the end it does nothing the solve the very problems that guy is pointing out.
Jun 13, 2011, 12:41 PM
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As per usual everyone knows exactly what was going on and why it all went bad. Hey assholes the student was not chased to the ground. He was observed to be headed into the ground. But as I said "per usual' everyone here seems to have an asshole, uh I mean an opinion. It was posted so folks can learn from mistakes made, you ass wipes. Have you nothing better to do. It was not a claim to fame. Seriously 300 feet is nothing one should brag about. It was an answer to a question butthead. Oh but wait you all know everything. Jesus even critiquing the first jumper's exit. You all most just be the most awesome error free bunch of skydiving gods known to man. Fuck you all if you can't learn from other's mistake then just fuck you.....
I can't help but wonder why, if the coach really wanted to post something people can learn from (as has been claimed), he posted it on a facebook account instead of sharing it with the wider community on an established skydiving site... like dz.com - perhaps with some commentary that would really help people to understand the situation that led to the skydive.
Does not make a lot of sense to me nor does the very defensive attitude by some people in this thread - unless it was to solicit the very positive comments from Facebook friends about how awesome a coach they are - that seems a bit at odds with some of the very experienced posters. I just don't understand it.
Jun 13, 2011, 4:40 PM
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[I will never ever understand someone consciously waiting on an AAD to save them...]
It happens more often than people think it does
Totally agree ! I had a total on jump 15 and by golly I pulled that reserve right now !!! ( had a Sentinel on ). My T-10 then came out hanging below me and I chopped it immediately. My 2 cents.
Jun 13, 2011, 4:55 PM
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[I will never ever understand someone consciously waiting on an AAD to save them...]
It happens more often than people think it does
Totally agree ! I had a total on jump 15 and by golly I pulled that reserve right now !!! ( had a Sentinel on ). My T-10 then came out hanging below me and I chopped it immediately. My 2 cents.
In reply to:
Can two rounds out play nicely together, or do you need to cut away ?
Jun 13, 2011, 7:13 PM
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[I will never ever understand someone consciously waiting on an AAD to save them...]
It happens more often than people think it does
Totally agree ! I had a total on jump 15 and by golly I pulled that reserve right now !!! ( had a Sentinel on ). My T-10 then came out hanging below me and I chopped it immediately. My 2 cents.
In reply to:
Can two rounds out play nicely together, or do you need to cut away ?
That is actually not too bad, 2 rounds out, no downplane !! ha ha. I saw a student with 2 rounds out ( totally stable situation ) and everyone screamed to chop the main. He did, and his 24 foot non steerable proceeded to oscillate him very hard into the ground.. no broken bones, fortunately.
Jun 14, 2011, 9:25 AM
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As I understood the theory behind chopping a round main it was to avoid entanglement with the reserve pilot chute. Pilot chuteless "pull and punch" reserves did not require a cutaway. Once both canopies are deployed there would be no point to cutting away.
Jun 14, 2011, 11:13 AM
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Its good to know the assholes know who they are. I'm also glad to learn how much hand signals could have fixed the situation. But the truth is, this was a very good learning aid for people who want to improve themselves as coaches and instructors, and not just belittle and berate an individual who chose to take on the huge responsibility of holding an instructional rating. The mistakes made in this situation started on the ground and were made by more than just the coach. This "student" was an experienced D licensed skydiver making a SECOND re-currency jump. So certain assumptions were made. It is correct to state that this individual should not have been placed with a coach but thats the luxury of hind sight. The coach was told this jumper was a little rusty but not unsafe. I too find it difficult to understand how he was able to demonstrate ability enough to be placed with a coach after his FIRST re-currency jump, but he must have, because, while our instructors may demonstrate some tact and consideration, they are not in the habit of passing unsafe jumpers on to the coaches. I would still like to see this video posted for other coaches and instructors to learn from, but facebook was not the appropriate medium, and I doubt that the coach is ready for another round of merciless abuse.
Jun 14, 2011, 12:51 PM
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I personally know 2 jumpers whom had cypress fire and both said they were aware and waited for the cypress to fire their reserve. They locked, just locked in belly position. One tried 2 times to deploy the main and freeze in position and the other had a hard time to extract the pilot chute and waited for the cypress, no intention whatsoever to deploy the reserve. Both of them had more than 100 jumps when it happened.
(This post was edited by CarloC on Jun 14, 2011, 12:57 PM)
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Jun 14, 2011, 5:28 PM
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My (untested) theory is that if you want the student to pull, seeing their instructor deploy should set the wheels in motion.
It does. Or at least has with one whose video I've seen.
Jun 14, 2011, 6:03 PM
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My (untested) theory is that if you want the student to pull, seeing their instructor deploy should set the wheels in motion
That's exactly what USPA teaches...if they don't pull, signal them (altitude permitting), if they still don't pull, deploy your own parachute. Hopefully they'll see it and know to pull, if not, you keep yourself from going low and having an AAD fire or worse.
The point of the video (among other things) is to reinforce this belief, and to make folks realize that it's easy to talk about it on the ground but when YOU are actually in the moment you might not actually do it unless you prepare yourself for it.
Instructional rating holders fall for this ploy all the time; there have been fatalities from it. What will YOU do if your student doesn't pull and is on his back spinning down to the ground?
Jun 14, 2011, 7:06 PM
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Quote:
As per usual everyone knows exactly what was going on and why it all went bad.
If you want to get mad, how about start with the AFF I who passed this jumper to a coach after an admittedly unsatisfactory re-certification jump. Then get mad at the coach who got in way over his head, and made several mistakes it the process.
Getting mad at the guy who simply points these things out might make you feel better, but in the end it does nothing the solve the very problems that guy is pointing out.
The sad and telling part is that both the AFFI and the Coach failed here.
This is just one more example of why USPA has no hope of fixing anything to make skydiving safer.
USPA can come up with any and all the "training" programs they can dream up and people will do what's necessary to pass the course and then promptly throw it all by the wayside and go off on their own doing whatever they damn well please as long as they get paid to do whatever stupid shit they can come up with.
USPA will continue to turn a blind eye to the real problem. They will continue to put out advisories, pamphlets, posters and other stupid, meaningless recommendation crap while the carnage only gets worse and worse.
Jun 14, 2011, 8:16 PM
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I respectfully disagree with that. I know all of the people involved with this jump very well, they all took it very seriously, and so does the rest of the staff (including me). This is not something we ever want to see happen again and have taken measures to deal with it.
We appreciate the comments; people have pretty much pointed out all of things we spotted. One thing I would add is that this particular jumper earned his license way before AFF was really in effect (he was static line). The usual hand signals, which became mainstream with the ISP, meant nothing to him.
As for the leg straps I'll have to go back and look at that again. I know for a fact this guy received the usual three gear checks; one during gear up, one before boarding, and one before exiting. I have a suspiscion he might have caused something to loosen as he rolled around in the plane trying to get out. We'll look at that one again.
(This post was edited by polarbear on Jun 14, 2011, 8:23 PM)
Jun 14, 2011, 8:49 PM
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This "student" was an experienced D licensed skydiver making a SECOND re-currency jump. So certain assumptions were made. It is correct to state that this individual should not have been placed with a coach but thats the luxury of hind sight.
What sort of assumptions would make if a jumper needed more than one re-currency jump? Would those assumptions point toward pairing such a student with a coach who was not trained, nor expected to catch, stabilize and pull for a student?
How is it hindsight when the instructors were well aware that this jumper was not ready for unsupervised jumping? That's what it means when you require more than one re-currency jump, after the first one you were still not proficient enough to be considered 'current'.
I don't blame the coach for the overall situation, that responsibility falls to the instructor who handed the student over. Coaches are intended for, and trained for, jumping with current students who have made a satisfactory skydive within the proceeding 30 days. Does that description match the student in this incident?
The instructor put the coach in the bad spot, plain and simple. The coach had no way of knowing how the student would perform beforehand, but the instructor did, as they were the last to jump with them.
Again, I like how I'm the asshole for pointing out the significant and dangerous mistakes that others made. I never claimed that I was perfect or imperfect, but either way my actions are not the topic of conversation here.
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Jun 14, 2011, 9:27 PM
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If the gear checks were thorough...they might have caught skipped/missing elastic keepers on the legstraps? I've seen more than a couple instances on WS skydives where the elastics are bypassed and pressure from the suit allows the legstrap to get loose( resulting in a nut-buster).
It takes courage to share, and I wish more people would share so that we can all learn. Legal issues aside, most folks don't have the balls to post their screwups, let alone take responsibilty for them. The internet makes it possible for people to beat you up but know that for every one person that chews on you for your actions, there are at least 5-10 silent sets of eyes that learn from (and appreciate) what you've shared.
Jun 15, 2011, 1:05 AM
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Re: [hekle] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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I watched all this from the ground. I have never seen a jumper spinning on his back so close to the ground. And I froze up. I realized it could have been me in freefall thinking I'm watching my student go in and lock up just like I did on the ground.
Jun 15, 2011, 2:28 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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What sort of assumptions would make if a jumper needed more than one re-currency jump? Would those assumptions point toward pairing such a student with a coach who was not trained, nor expected to catch, stabilize and pull for a student?
Just out of curiosity my understanding is that a SL trained instructor can supervise re-currency. Based on this incident would you expect a D license jumper to do a SL jump with a practice pull?
Jun 15, 2011, 4:27 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Just out of curiosity my understanding is that a SL trained instructor can supervise re-currency. Based on this incident would you expect a D license jumper to do a SL jump with a practice pull?
I'm not sure what you mean. An SL instructor can supervise an SL jump, not make a one-on-one freefall jump in an instructional capacity.
With that in mind, I'm not sure how an SL jump with a practice pull would be an adequate indication of currency for a jumper intending to make freefall jumps with an extended delay.
Just like you need to select an appropriate instructor for recurrency jumps, you need to select an appropriate skydive. If the jumper is looking to do SL jumps, or 5 second delays, then yes, maybe an SL I and an SL jump with a dummy pull would be appropriate. If the jumper wants to do freefall jumps from full altitude, that what that need to do in the presence of an instructor rated to teach that type of jump.
Jun 15, 2011, 5:46 AM
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The internet makes it possible for people to beat you up but know that for every one person that chews on you for your actions, there are at least 5-10 silent sets of eyes that learn from (and appreciate) what you've shared.
...and I suspect even those doing the chewing are learning something, too. At the very least, getting re-enforcement on what they already know.
Jun 15, 2011, 5:50 AM
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Again, I like how I'm the asshole for pointing out the significant and dangerous mistakes that others made.
Dave, you are NOT the asshole. Holy bejeebus, should we all just let shit pass without saying anything at all? Should we all become enablers? I think not. You provide a valuable service...no need to defend that.
Jun 15, 2011, 6:07 AM
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USPA C and D-license holders who have not made a freefall skydive within the preceding six months should make at least one jump under the supervision of a USPA instructional rating holder until demonstrating the ability to safely exercise the privileges of that license.
From the SIM it does not have to be AFF rated instructor. So I was asking how a Static Line Rated instructor would supervise recurrency. I realise this is fairly hyperthetical as SL is a dying training method.
Jun 15, 2011, 6:19 AM
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An SL instructor can supervise an SL jump, not make a one-on-one freefall jump in an instructional capacity.
Sure they can! S/L and IAD instructors are rated to perform any jump in that line of the ISP, from cats A-H, which includes ALL freefall work in the IAD/S/L line. They are also rated to do recurrency work, in fact the SIM requires an 'appropriately rated instructor'...which to me means if the jumper learned S/L, he goes with an S/L instructor.
Clearly, with the benefit of hinsight, this guy should have been bumped back further. The point is that's with hindsight. If someone showed up on YOUR DZ and was an uncurrent D-licensed skydiver, would you just grab him and say 'your making an S/L jump'? The SIM does NOT require it...would you? I have never seen that done at any dropzone. Maybe for lower licenses, but not for D-licenses.
Jun 15, 2011, 6:25 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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If you read the passage you quoted, the last part is the most telling. It states the jumper must 'demonstrate the ability to safely exersice the privileges of that license'. All of the USPA licenses that I know of include the privilege of making unsupervised freefall jumps, so if currency requires demonstration of that, and a freefall jump requires a freefall instructor, then no, you cannot use an SL I to establish currency.
Jun 15, 2011, 6:26 AM
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USPA C and D-license holders who have not made a freefall skydive within the preceding six months should make at least one jump under the supervision of a USPA instructional rating holder until demonstrating the ability to safely exercise the privileges of that license.
From the SIM it does not have to be AFF rated instructor. So I was asking how a Static Line Rated instructor would supervise recurrency. I realise this is fairly hyperthetical as SL is a dying training method.
If I understand the language USPA uses, it does not require an Instructor either.
"Instructional rating holder" includes USPA Coach.
Jun 15, 2011, 6:36 AM
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S/L instructors ARE freefall instructors, Dave, they are rated to do all of the freefall jumps with any student who went through the S/L program - stability, turns, flips, tracking, fall rate, docking, all of it. They can also work with an AFF student once that student gets to Category F.
They can also do recurrency jumps.
Are you saying the only person who can teach freefall is an AFF-I? That isn't true. AFF-I are required to teach and administer an AFF Category A-E jump. That's the only thing they are required for.
Jun 15, 2011, 6:39 AM
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Just out of curiosity my understanding is that a SL trained instructor can supervise re-currency. Based on this incident would you expect a D license jumper to do a SL jump with a practice pull?
I'm not sure what you mean. An SL instructor can supervise an SL jump, not make a one-on-one freefall jump in an instructional capacity.
With that in mind, I'm not sure how an SL jump with a practice pull would be an adequate indication of currency for a jumper intending to make freefall jumps with an extended delay.
Just like you need to select an appropriate instructor for recurrency jumps, you need to select an appropriate skydive. If the jumper is looking to do SL jumps, or 5 second delays, then yes, maybe an SL I and an SL jump with a dummy pull would be appropriate. If the jumper wants to do freefall jumps from full altitude, that what that need to do in the presence of an instructor rated to teach that type of jump.
From the SIM "USPA C and D-license holders who have not made a freefall skydive within the preceding six months should make at least one jump under the supervision of a USPA instructional rating holder until demonstrating the ability to safely exercise the privileges of that license." Dave, I'm sure you are very knowledgeable about skydiving, but I see no instructional ratings in your profile. A S/L Instructor is fully rated to make not just S/L jumps, but also freefall instructional jumps. They are just NOT allowed to take harness holds or deploy for the student. No one has stated what level of retraining this returning jumper received, but this thread has, from the beginning, been full of assumptions (initially that the person going out with the student was an AFF I, assumptions about proper gear checks, assumptions about why the coach posted this, even assumptions about the exit that the previous jumper leaving the airplane made) based on no facts. I've seen a lot of returning jumpers over the years, and I've seen more than 1 case where giving the jumper the "benefit of the doubt" has worked well, but I've also seen (and been directly involed in some) where this has gone poorly. Retraining for this type of jumper at a S/L DZ, based on my experience, would involve a complete first jump course, at least 1 successful PRCP, and a clear and pull before progressing to freefall. This is based on 20 years of instruction. While this is my standard, it is not USPA's. USPA RECOMMENDS additional training after a long lay-off from the sport, but does not require it. Would I make this mistake today? No. Could I have made this mistake 15-20 years ago, with a lot less experience? Yes. I have PMed the coach involved and told him I hoped he wouldn't give up his rating over this. He's not the first one to make a mistake, nor will he be the last. A USPA instructional rating is not a certificate of perfection. It is a license to teach and a license to learn. Lastly, I certainly hope all the posters that are so quick to condemn are willing to hold themselves to the same standard of "no mistakes ever" perfection that they seem to be willing to impose on others. I've been around long enough to know that is NOT the case, but I keep hoping........
Jun 15, 2011, 6:41 AM
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This where interpretation of the 'letter of the law' and common sense create a fork in the road, and which one you want to follow is up to you.
I know, let's take an uncurrent D license jumper who doesn't perform well on a recurrency jump and pair them with a USPA coach. According to the 'letter of the law', that jump would be allowed by the USPA. I wonder how that would turn out?
Jun 15, 2011, 6:44 AM
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the SIM requires an 'appropriately rated instructor'...which to me means if the jumper learned S/L, he goes with an S/L instructor.
Sure, if all they intend to do is SL jumps. If they want to do freefall jumps, then they need a freefall instructor.
Per Nigel's quote from the SIM, a recurrency jump does not require an Instructor of any sort in the first place. "Instruction rating holder" includes USPA Coach.
I guess USPA presumes that license holders, even though non-current, should be able to fall out of the airplane without messing up too badly in the first place.
It would appear that such an assumption is not as valid as it once may have been.
Jun 15, 2011, 6:48 AM
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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A S/L Instructor is fully rated to make not just S/L jumps, but also freefall instructional jumps. They are just NOT allowed to take harness holds or deploy for the student.
Ok, that's fair. An SL I who follows a student out on a long delay is working with a current student who has proven their skills on the previous jump, and been passed to the next. This is why it's acceptable to have an SL I jumping in freefall with a student, it's based on the premise that this student is moving through the progression, and couldn't do that without 'proving' themsleves on the previous jump.
An uncurrent jumper needs a recurrency jump because they haven't 'proved' themselves in awhile, and they need to do so before being released to self supervise. So on a jump where the possibility of needing to dock, stabilze and pull for the student, you need an instructor who is trained, rated and experienced in doing so.
Nit picking the way the regs are written is one thing, and that might tell you how much you can 'get away' with. Using common sense, even if it creates a situation more conservative than the regs might permit is another way to proceed. I vote for the latter.
Jun 15, 2011, 7:01 AM
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When a student 'passes' a jump, they have to perform at a reasonable level, not perfectly. Coaches exist to help refine and perfect.
As I have already stated several times, this gentleman DID make a jump with an instructor, he DID stay stable in freefall and pull at the correct altitude, he DID fly his canopy and land safely, he was just a little rough. He was asked to jump again with a coach to help refine him. That is what coaches are for. It was well withing USPA regs and I think it completely passes the common sense test.
Point is, he went from 'rough' to 'unresponsive' very quickly and with little warning. SINCE YOU HAVE THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT you are justified in your comments. We did not have that benefit.
Jun 15, 2011, 7:10 AM
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I know, let's take an uncurrent D license jumper who doesn't perform well on a recurrency jump and pair them with a USPA coach. According to the 'letter of the law', that jump would be allowed by the USPA. I wonder how that would turn out?
It's done that way all the time at drop zones all over the country, Dave, and it works just fine most of the time. It's common practice, which is why it was written into the regs.
This video is one of those times it didn't work. It's easy to watch this video and then attack because of the result, but that's because you have hindsight.
I do not believe it passes the common sense test to force someone to work with an AFF-I. What if that DZ has no AFF-I? What if there are no AFF-I on site at the time? What if the student or recurrency jumper didn't learn in the AFF program? Do you send everyone home, even though you have appropriately rated instructors on site who can handle the load? That makes no sense to me, Dave.
Jun 15, 2011, 7:11 AM
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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he was just a little rough.
Would you clear him to self-supervise? That's what coaches are intended for, jumpers who have been cleared to self-supervise, and that's why they are not taught to catch, stabilize or pull for students. It's not part of their job, and they are not qualified to do so.
If he was cleared to self-supervise, and chose to jump with a coach on his own, then fine. If the instructor on the first jump wasn't preparred to clear the student to self-supervise, then the student should not have been passed to a coach trained only to jump with students cleared to self supervise.
For the record, I make this point more for the benefit of others, and not as a 'dig' to your DZ or staff. We all know that anything can happen at any time, and even will all other things pointing in one direction, any jumper can quickly veer off course in the other direction.
However, in hindsight, it's clear that this was a mis-appropriation of a coach, and the way we avoid future instances is by pointing it out and explaing the problem to make sure that people are mindful of the coach, their level of training, and how they should be used at the DZ.
Jun 15, 2011, 7:17 AM
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What if that DZ has no AFF-I? What if there are no AFF-I on site at the time? What if the student or recurrency jumper didn't learn in the AFF program? Do you send everyone home, even though you have appropriately rated instructors on site who can handle the load?
Yeah, you send them home if you don't have an instructor capable of doing the job. Skydiving is a privlege, not a right, and you lose that privilge when you let your currency lapse. It's not the DZs job to staff instructors for you to get your currency back.
How the jumper learned in the first place is irrelevant. They need to demonstrate currency in whatever it is they intend to do. If they want to make extended freefall jumps from full altitude, then that's what they need to demonstrate. If that's the case, a freefall rated instructor is the one you go with.
So the jump in question used an 'appropriately rated' instructor as per the books. As per reality, the instructor could not 'handle the load'.
Jun 15, 2011, 7:25 AM
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I don't blame the coach for the overall situation, that responsibility falls to the instructor who handed the student over.
I agree with Dave (as usual).
the coach had two jobs we are questioning: 1 - pull at his pull altitude (which would have sent a strong communication to the student that it was pull time). Clearly a fail here as this is a defined job description for the role. 2 - A good gear check (x3) - coached students are supposed to be self-supervised - not a fail, as the other jumper is responsible and the coach is a backup - but still not a win at all for the coach, he failed on the backup (possibly, not so cut and dried and I didn't see the video)
the AFF Instructor (1 thing) - 1 - testing the student as to readiness for self supervision. It sounds like the AFFI didn't think the student was ready - but passed him anyway. Clearly a fail here.
Side commentary - One thing though - the only thing an AFFI has to go on for recurrency is one dive = the ground presence of the student (demo of knowledge and proficiency) and the air performance of the student on a SINGLE observed jump. He can absolutely pass that one dive on both counts and that means the student can be cleared, and then he can tank the next dives in spectacular fashion - and no one should be able to take the AFFI to task (none of us have crystal balls to the future). (of course, if the AFFI finds out that the student is unsafe after the fact, there is a responsibility to get the student back into training.....but that's not what we're talking about here)
We do see a LOT of 20/20 hindsight judgmentalism on these boards. But not in this case. If the AFFI was concerned, then passing to a coach was clearly wrong.
Lastly, re-currency jumpers can be the absolute worst - especially ones from 'back when' - they still think they know it all. Assigning a strong willed AFFI is a good idea here.
(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 15, 2011, 7:29 AM)
Jun 15, 2011, 10:04 AM
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The internet makes it possible for people to beat you up but know that for every one person that chews on you for your actions, there are at least 5-10 silent sets of eyes that learn from (and appreciate) what you've shared.
Jun 15, 2011, 10:14 AM
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Sorry Dave, but you really don't get it. Anyone who has not spent a lot of time working with students has no idea how much a students performance can vary from jump to jump. This is not to defend or attack, just to explain. Let's apply your standards to you and your posting. I've read alot of what you've written, and generally it's been very good. But......on this thread, you started by attacking the terrible performance of an AFF -I (without reading the facebook thread that was in plain sight saying this was a coach jump), discussed more than once the leg straps (if you had experience with a lot of student gear, it's bulky, one-size-fits-no-one, and when in the position that this guy was in, leg straps that are plenty tight can appear loose. Not saying this was definitely the case with only one viewing, just that it might have been. I've seen this before in Cessna climbouts), refer to "that jackass posts the video online and thinks it's cool that his Protrack reported a 300ft opening altitude" (the guy posted the video as a learning tool, he never express pride in what went on), Then proceed to now tear into the Instructor who made the previous jump with the guy "If you want to get mad, how about start with the AFF I who passed this jumper to a coach after an admittedly unsatisfactory re-certification jump" (even though no-one said his previous jump was unsatisfactory, just not perfect. None of us have seen that video, so how can you judge?), then express a total misunderstanding of jumper re-currency training and who is allowed to do what "An SL instructor can supervise an SL jump, not make a one-on-one freefall jump in an instructional capacity" and when told this isn't the case, devote a few more posts trying to still justify your position. I'm not saying that this coach didn't make a very important mistake (not pulling at altitude), just thinking about what standards you hold YOURSELF to, and wondering if some recognition of error or apology to those involved in this incident might not be appropriate.
Jun 15, 2011, 10:33 AM
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I stand by what I said.
Take it or leave it, I don't really care. It's an internet message board, not the supreme court. What I say here, or you say here has very little bearing on the real world.
If you aren't ready to hear the good, the bad and the ugly, then don't post your shit (videos, pictures, or opinions) online for the entire world (literally) to see.
Quote:
then express a total misunderstanding of jumper re-currency training and who is allowed to do what
I stated several times that sometimes there is a difference between sticking to the 'letter of the law', and doing what just makes sense. Just because you can read the regs in such a way that it appears to endorse one course of action doesn't mean that course of action is always going to be the right one. While you do have to stick to the regs in terms of how permissive you can be, nothing states that you cannot impose your own, more conservative, guidelines if they appear to be prudent.
If you think an SL I with no freefall instructional experience, or a coach with 102 jumps is a good fit for a recertification jump, get video.
Jun 15, 2011, 11:04 AM
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I stand by what I said.
Take it or leave it, I don't really care. It's an internet message board, not the supreme court. What I say here, or you say here has very little bearing on the real world.
If you aren't ready to hear the good, the bad and the ugly, then don't post your shit (videos, pictures, or opinions) online for the entire world (literally) to see.
Quote:
then express a total misunderstanding of jumper re-currency training and who is allowed to do what
I stated several times that sometimes there is a difference between sticking to the 'letter of the law', and doing what just makes sense. Just because you can read the regs in such a way that it appears to endorse one course of action doesn't mean that course of action is always going to be the right one. While you do have to stick to the regs in terms of how permissive you can be, nothing states that you cannot impose your own, more conservative, guidelines if they appear to be prudent.
If you think an SL I with no freefall instructional experience, or a coach with 102 jumps is a good fit for a recertification jump, get video.
Creating straw dogs to howl at doesn't really add to the discussion. To repeat myself I certainly hope all the posters that are so quick to condemn are willing to hold themselves to the same standard of "no mistakes ever" perfection that they seem to be willing to impose on others. I've been around long enough to know that is NOT the case, but I keep hoping........
Jun 15, 2011, 11:16 AM
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I certainly hope all the posters that are so quick to condemn are willing to hold themselves to the same standard of "no mistakes ever" perfection that they seem to be willing to impose on others.
I'll make two points in reference to this -
First, what's to say that I (or anyone) doesn't hold themselves to that standard? Not that we achieve it, but that we don't work towards it every day and struggle with our own shortcomings when they arise?
Second, the way that everyone learns from these incidents is if you go trough, point by point, and high light every mistake that was made (or even possibly made) and show how it contributed to the end result. To do any less would be assuming that everyone reading could easily see and understand the situation, and how it came to be, and for my money that's a piss poor assumption, and a sure way to waste a learning opportunity and do nothing to prevent it from happening again.
Jun 15, 2011, 1:14 PM
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I certainly hope all the posters that are so quick to condemn are willing to hold themselves to the same standard of "no mistakes ever" perfection that they seem to be willing to impose on others. Maybe it's just me, but I see more discussion than condemnation...I guess it has to do with how you see it, and how thin your skin is.
It's also a great motivator not to fuck up, if ya don't like the heat kind of thing.
Personally I have no problem with a no holds barred critique of my actions when people's lives are involved...I ask for and expect nothing less from my peers. It's all part of the path in regard to striving for 'perfection'.
Jun 15, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Personally, I don't see the big deal with people pointing out other's mistakes. I've had folks at the DZ give me critiques on things that I already knew and/or had already been talked to about. I'd rather hear it five times from five different people than zero times.
I'm just glad someone cares enough to want to help me. Likewise, I have thick skin, so I don't condemn the messenger for his method of delivery. Not everyone can deliver a Brian Germainesqe critique and make us feel warm and fuzzy while simultaneously telling us we're wrong.
I'm sure if davelepka posted a video of him making a mistake, he'd get crushed on here. But I suspect, he'd man up and and say "yeah, I fucked up".
Jun 15, 2011, 5:22 PM
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A happy post!
In reply to:
I'm just glad someone cares enough to want to help me.
And at the end of the day, that's the point of it all.
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...so I don't condemn the messenger for his method of delivery. Not everyone can deliver a Brian Germainesqe critique and make us feel warm and fuzzy while simultaneously telling us we're wrong.
Now THERE'S a sign of maturity. Quite refreshing it is.
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I'm sure if davelepka posted a video of him making a mistake, he'd get crushed on here. But I suspect, he'd man up and and say "yeah, I fucked up".
And you would be right.
Great post, dude. Great post. Now, can you bottle that attitude and sell it?
Jun 16, 2011, 7:11 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Yes, it may seem strange, but I have been on several (eight) instructional jumps where the student simply froze and refused to pull. I had to pull for them, and twice the student actually fought me, not letting me pull their reserve. Occasionally people do weird things under stress.
Jun 16, 2011, 8:35 PM
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Back in the day AAD's were not common. Every year there were always several cutaways with no reserve pull that none of us could ever understand. Even highly experienced jumpers sometimes did that. Now I have seen the recent videos of jumpers in distress who wait for the AAD to save them, which fortunately did occur in the videos we have seen. There must be something to this... something that causes a complete freeze up of a person... maybe it is just plain old brainlock. IMO AAD's are clearly saving a lot of people's lives and the Indonesian accident could have had a much better ending if AAD's had been in use.
Jun 17, 2011, 1:34 AM
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Back in the day AAD's were not common. Every year there were always several cutaways with no reserve pull that none of us could ever understand. Even highly experienced jumpers sometimes did that. Now I have seen the recent videos of jumpers in distress who wait for the AAD to save them, which fortunately did occur in the videos we have seen. There must be something to this... something that causes a complete freeze up of a person... maybe it is just plain old brainlock. IMO AAD's are clearly saving a lot of people's lives and the Indonesian accident could have had a much better ending if AAD's had been in use.
No question AADs save lives, however IF you 'freeze up' and simply wait for the battery box...you're a meat bomb not a skydiver.
Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order.
Jun 17, 2011, 12:14 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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If you think an SL I with no freefall instructional experience, or a coach with 102 jumps is a good fit for a recertification jump, get video.
I don't understand this idea that staic line instructors can't teach freefall. It is incorrect. Static line instructors can teach the entire student program, from jump one to the license check dive. They are trained, rated, and expected to teach the exact same skills as an AFF-I, they just use a different method to do so.
Only the first five jumps of the static line program are done using an actual static line. Everything after that is in freefall, and the instructor is expected to be able to teach the student, jump with the student, stay with the strudent, and evaluate the student. You cannot become an SL-I without doing these things.
The SL program has been eclipsed by AFF, but SL and IAD are still officially recognized and frequently used training programs. Many of the best skydivers today learned in the SL program. They could not have done that if SL instructors could not teach freefall.
There are no SL-I with 'no freefall instructional experience'. Such a thing does not exist; you have to instruct freefall before you can get the rating and you must be continually successful in teaching freefall to keep the rating.
Jun 17, 2011, 1:18 PM
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Re: [Glitch] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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I know lots of them. I personally have observed that I can't see enough to diagnosis problems beyond 10 seconds; I know plenty of SL-I that agree with that number plus or minus a few.
Jun 17, 2011, 1:36 PM
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Just a general comment I'd like to make here. We're focusing the debate on whether or not a coach or SL-I has the flying experience to administer a recurrency dive; the argument is that only an AFF-I should do that.
It is easy to wacth the video and conclude someone with the ability to fly in and stabilize and/or pull for the jumper (for instance an AFF-I) could have had a different outcome.
I think focusing the debate on who administers a recurrency dive is completely missing the point. I think the debate should be focused on being surprised by your student, which is what happened here.
In this particular case, the coach had well over 1000 jumps and I know from personal experience he had the flying capability to fly in on the student. I've personally witnissed it time and time again. He had personally dealt with low pulling students before and had never failed to perform appropriately; he had flown video for countless students (both Tandem and AFF) and chased them all over the sky; he had even flown video for an AFF-I course - you know, the jumps where the examiners INTENTIONALLY do everything wrong to force the candidates to deal with it - and stayed right with them the whole way.
The reason things went bad is because the student (recurrency jumper) totally screwed up, the coach was surprised and shocked, and subsequently locked up.
An AFF instructor *should* have the abilty to fly in on an unstable student and pull for him, but the question is how will he - or YOU - perform if you get surprised? AFF instructors get surprised, too...they go low, sometimes even go in becasue a student surprised them. They have the ABILITY to perform, but they lock up because they get SURPRISED. I have seen and heard about it happening (on occassion) at DZs all over the country.
I really think the point of this video is that students (or even D-licensed recurrency jumpers) can do some amazingly crazy things with no warnings, and you can't afford to be surprised and lock up.
(This post was edited by polarbear on Jun 17, 2011, 2:34 PM)
Jun 19, 2011, 8:40 PM
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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The debate is about responsibility as well. A coach is not responsible for pulling for a student. The AFFI is. This is the line in the sand drawn by the USPA. And any coach trying to pull for a student is outside their box and could potentially be negligent. No one wants to watch someone bounce. But as a coach thats exactly what you are supposed to do if a student fails to save their own life. Once cleard for self supervision, the assumption is that the student can and will end their freefall without intervention. No coach should ever attempt to exceed their training limits. D
Jun 20, 2011, 11:04 AM
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Re: [Deisel] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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This brings up a point that is of interest to me since I am about to take a coach course (and I will be sure to ask about this scenario!). I know that a coach is not trained, nor supposed to, pull for someone. But if a coach is on a jump with someone who has obviously frozen up, is he/she required to back off and depend on an AAD to save their locked up student? If the coach DOES move in and pull for the student, would their rating be pulled?
Jun 20, 2011, 11:40 AM
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Re: [Beachbum] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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This brings up a point that is of interest to me since I am about to take a coach course (and I will be sure to ask about this scenario!). I know that a coach is not trained, nor supposed to, pull for someone. But if a coach is on a jump with someone who has obviously frozen up, is he/she required to back off and depend on an AAD to save their locked up student? If the coach DOES move in and pull for the student, would their rating be pulled?
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If you jumped as a coach and the other jumper hit the plane and got knocked out, wouldn't you try to chase them and deploy for them considering altitude.......coach or not ?
Jun 20, 2011, 11:51 AM
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This brings up a point that is of interest to me since I am about to take a coach course (and I will be sure to ask about this scenario!). I know that a coach is not trained, nor supposed to, pull for someone. But if a coach is on a jump with someone who has obviously frozen up, is he/she required to back off and depend on an AAD to save their locked up student? If the coach DOES move in and pull for the student, would their rating be pulled?
Book answer: You wave them off, they don't respond, you turn, burn and deploy, they're on their own.
Would you get your rating pulled if you dumped them out? I find it unlikely, however, that's up to the S&TA and BOD to talk about.
Real world: That's on you... I'll keep my opinion to myself (it's sure to piss off some people)
Jun 20, 2011, 11:57 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Book answer: You wave them off, they don't respond, you turn, burn and deploy, they're on their own.
Hot tip to Beachbum for your coach course evaluation jumps - the chance of your "student" losing altitude awareness around the agreed-upon breakoff/pull time is near to 100%. Make sure you know what to do ... and do it.
(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jun 20, 2011, 11:57 AM)
Jun 20, 2011, 12:23 PM
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Re: [Beachbum] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Like others have said, you probaly won't get your rating pulled. But as a rating holder, hell as a skydiver in general, you have to decide what you are going to do. Make that decision before you get in the plane and be prepared to live (or die) with it.
Personally - I've got no friends under 2K. I'd most likely keep trying till around 1500 but absolutely no lower.
Jun 20, 2011, 1:17 PM
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Re: [Deisel] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Like others have said, you probaly won't get your rating pulled. But as a rating holder, hell as a skydiver in general, you have to decide what you are going to do. Make that decision before you get in the plane and be prepared to live (or die) with it.
Personally - I've got no friends under 2K. I'd most likely keep trying till around 1500 but absolutely no lower.
Then you really haven't made a decision. Second guessing yourself like that turns 1500 into 1300 into 1000 then dead....
(Not directed towards anyone in particular just my feelings) I decided when I hit 500 jumps that I was not the one I would want saving my kids life if shit hit the fan. I want some 20 something, fit, on top of his game stud being there not some beat up old man. I say that because being a coach,AFFI,TI is a tremendous responsibillty not some ego feeding cash cow that lets you rack up the numbers and they (ratings) should be treated as such IMO
Jun 20, 2011, 2:02 PM
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Re: [catfishhunter] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Agreed! 2K is my number but knowing myself, I'll keep going if I'm close enough. And yes you are correct - that's how people end up dead. But as I recommended earlier, we all have to be preparred to live and die with these choices. Where did the quote coe from that says 'it's not a tragedy to die doing something you love'? Truer words have never been spoken.
Jun 27, 2011, 1:14 PM
Post #106 of 162
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Re: [Beachbum] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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This brings up a point that is of interest to me since I am about to take a coach course (and I will be sure to ask about this scenario!). I know that a coach is not trained, nor supposed to, pull for someone. But if a coach is on a jump with someone who has obviously frozen up, is he/she required to back off and depend on an AAD to save their locked up student? If the coach DOES move in and pull for the student, would their rating be pulled?
To elaborate on what some of the other posters have said, yes, your role as a coach is not to save the student. Yes, you may be subjecting yourself to liability if you do (possibly if you don't, for that matter, but if you try to pull for them and something goes wrong, it's my thought that the paper trail will likely work against you.)
As others have said, as a coach (& at some point as an instructor), the best thing you can do is pitch your own pilot chute. There's another very important reason besides just "saving yourself" and "not biting off more than you can chew" - it's because the student should know what to do if they see that happen.
The best, hands-down, last-resort signal to a coach student who's not deploying is a big, open canopy coming off of their coach's back. They should have been briefed on this before the jump. And if they've locked up, that may be just the signal they need to snap out of it.
Bottom line is, a coaching student knows how to save themselves. They've been cleared for self-supervision. The responsibility for saving their life has shifted from the instructor to them. That doesn't mean you don't go out of your way to make it a safe skydive - but once you hit a certain altitude, all bets are off.
No one wants to see someone go in, but the best approach is to plan the dive, and dive the plan.
Jun 28, 2011, 1:47 AM
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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The responsibility for saving their life has shifted from the instructor to them.
Just to be clear. The Instructor is NOT responsible for saving anyone at any time. The jumper has ultimate responsibility.
Now, any I worth his salt will do everything he possibly can, short of dying, to save students lives. But if the worst happens, it's NOT the I's responsibility for the outcome.
Jun 28, 2011, 4:23 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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There was a very interesting discussion this weekend between someone who is starting the path towards becoming an AFF-I and 2 current AFF-I's (well one is not so current).
They discussed the mindset of an AFF instructor and how you need to think differently and the responsibilities. It was very enlightening and I must say it is the first discussion that I have witnessed a 600+ jumper clearly hesitant.
Jun 28, 2011, 4:36 AM
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But if the worst happens
Keep in mind, the 'worst' happening could include the student throwing the PC in your face if they get their shit together at the same time you're closing for the pull. Another one that would suck balls is if the student's Cypres fires as you close in for the pull, nothing like getting hit by deploying canopy to ruin your day. You could another layer of suck if you have a Cypres and it fires at the same time as the students while you're right next to them, now you have the potential for a nice reserve wrap.
There are reasons the coaches are not supposed to pull for a student, some of them are above, and the other biggie is because they haven't been trained to do so. Put them in the middle of the shit, and who's to say that they'll have presence of mind to chase the student and watch their position relative to the student's PC. If you get over or directly in front of them when they (or the AAD) finally deciedes to pull, you just created more problems than you sloved.
None of this is mentioning the amount of time it takes to dock, stabilize and actually get a hand on the PC and get it out. A trained AFF I who has stopped spins, assisted with pulls, and actually pulled for students in the past will realize this, and realize that there comes a point in the jump where if you're not there, you're never going to get there in time to get the job done, and you need to bail.
If you don't have hands on the harness by 1500ft, you might as well just dump yourself because you're not going to make it. All you're going to do is get in the way of the Cypres (if it works) or suck yourself down so low that you'll go in trying to deploy your own canopy. If you figure a perfect pull would take 3 seconds from dock to PC extraction, that puts you right in Cypres-fire land with one hand on the harness and the other reaching back over the rig for the main PC, and that's if it goes perfect. If you don't get the perfect grip, or the student figths you, or you miss the handle, or you blink one too many times, it's over and thanks to Airtec things are about to get interresting.
A coach needs to do his job, and that includes leaving at break off, setting the good example for the student of planning the dive and diving the plan, reinforcing the pull priorities, and doing their best to make the student feel lonley in freefall below break off. Keep in mind that not too many years ago before coaches existed, students cleared to self-supervise would have been alone, and self supervising. There was nobody to save them then, and below break off when jumping with a coach, there's nobody to save them now.
Jun 28, 2011, 6:47 AM
Post #110 of 162
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Re: [popsjumper] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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The responsibility for saving their life has shifted from the instructor to them.
Just to be clear. The Instructor is NOT responsible for saving anyone at any time. The jumper has ultimate responsibility.
Now, any I worth his salt will do everything he possibly can, short of dying, to save students lives. But if the worst happens, it's NOT the I's responsibility for the outcome.
Absolutely correct.
Mistaken wording on my part. Earlier in the post, I mentioned "As others have said, as a coach (& at some point as an instructor), the best thing you can do is pitch your own pilot chute." But when I reiterated, I wasn't specific enough in my wording.
When you step out of an airplane, pulling a ripcord/pitching a pilot chute/saving your own life is always ultimately your responsibility.
As you mentioned, as an instructor, I'll chase a student until I can do nothing else to save their life. I have no friends below 2000'.
Jun 28, 2011, 9:13 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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A coach needs to do his job, and that includes leaving at break off, setting the good example for the student of planning the dive and diving the plan, reinforcing the pull priorities, and doing their best to make the student feel lonley in freefall below break off. Keep in mind that not too many years ago before coaches existed, students cleared to self-supervise would have been alone, and self supervising. There was nobody to save them then, and below break off when jumping with a coach, there's nobody to save them now.
One of the hardest things for me is taking off the AFFI hat and putting on the coach hat in cases like this. A vast majority of my jumps now are AFF, so when I do the occasional coach jump, the instinct is to get right in there when the student brain farts.
I had a coach student recently... The last dock, he reached, flipped on his back, about 6K. He was supposed to turn/track at 5500. He was belly down about 4500, I gave him an altimeter signal, but he was frazzled and didn't see it. He turned away from me and started to 'track' just above 3500 (at which point I pulled, hoping he'd see me deploy since his track was anything but straight). Every instinct was to chase him down, and give him 'pull' or pull for him. That is not the role of coach, however.
He ended up pulling about 2300. When we landed, I was hoarse from screaming 'pull' at him as I watched him keep going, and my sphincter was definitely twitching. I now owe beer as this is the first student I've had dump low.
(This post was edited by peregrinerose on Jun 28, 2011, 9:15 AM)
Jun 28, 2011, 10:19 AM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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...about 4500, I gave him an altimeter signal, but he was frazzled and didn't see it. He turned away from me and started to 'track' just above 3500...
Your "mistake" here, in this case - as a coach (and jumping in the role of a coach, in a coach jump) was even "being there" with/in proximity to him, BELOW his assigned break/track altitude.
Quote:
He was supposed to turn/track at 5500.
Then, at 5,500 all he should have seen from (and of) you is the bottoms of your feet... tracking distinctively, definitively and purposefully AWAY FROM HIM!
Let alone, further...
Quote:
"...about 4,500 I then gave him
this signal, or that" ---Should have been your feet fading even FURTHER and FASTER into the distance!
Quote:
Then "...3,500 feet"
You're STILL there? - - -
See where this is going (went)? Not being disparaging. Just maybe emphasizing/illustrating a little more is all. Your post gives great illustrative and anecdotal value as to precisely WHY the roles are what they are, and are so clearly defined, and I think you would agree - (and I think you yourself are saying): be adhered to.
Jun 28, 2011, 10:21 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Thanks for the input (spot on, btw!), everyone! As expected, the course instructor who is also an S&TA replied with the "never" train of thought. I even asked about a situation in which I think I might be more likely to risk going against training, which would be a currency jump with someone jumping a rig without an AAD. ... same answer ... a resounding NO!
oh ... and yes, I did pass the course, beer will be there next weekend!
Jun 28, 2011, 11:42 AM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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I disagree with you on this one. It's not possible for a coach to give pointers on tracking if the bottom of one's feet rather than one's eyes are directed at the student. At 5500, I was there (as I should have been given that it was HIS job to turn/track, and it's my job to know exactly what he's doing and when... If I'm not watching him, I can't give feedback), from 4500 down I was backsliding, still watching him... and nowhere near him, with plenty of separation for safe canopy deployment in the event he actually did pull on time.
Edited to add... here's a review of Cat G coach jumps, which very specifically states that the coach stays in place and observes the track. This student had no awareness at all of where I was from the time he flipped at 6K down... so tracking/hand signals/pulling all are irrelevant when the student is completely unaware.
Jun 28, 2011, 2:24 PM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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...here's a review of Cat G coach jumps, which very specifically states that the coach stays in place and observes the track.
Right. Now, remember your training that you received, during your (Coach's in this case) rating course, for what to do when the STUDENT FAILS to recognize his break-off altitude and does NOT waive-off (and subsequently begin his/her track) on their own, when they are supposed to?
Jun 28, 2011, 3:51 PM
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Of course...and also remember how many times in training we are told 'this is what you do for the course, but in real life.... ' There is no way in hell I'm turning my back on an unaware student and tracking. I'm going backslide to a safe distance where I can keep an eye on him, both for my safety and for his own feedback at the end of the coach jump.
For the record, those on the ground thought I actually had tracked away due to the separation between us. It was one of those high cloud days where it's easy to see bodies in freefall. The looks on people's faces as we walked in from that jump were absolutely priceless... lots of concern and the S&TA had witnessed the low pull... he definitely handled the situation well. To the student's credit, he also handled the follow-up talks very well... he messed up, but is completely the type that will learn from it and move on and be a better skydiver for it.
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Jun 28, 2011, 4:49 PM
Post #119 of 162
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Re: [peregrinerose] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Of course...and also remember how many times in training we are told 'this is what you do for the course, but in real life.... ' There is no way in hell I'm turning my back on an unaware student and tracking. I'm going backslide to a safe distance where I can keep an eye on him, both for my safety and for his own feedback at the end of the coach jump.
Another opinion is that if the student sees you beat feet and deploy, it'll trigger them to do the same. Every student knows (should know) a track signifies the end of the skydive. If they see you backsliding, they may think the skydive is still in progress, and not recognize the urgency to deploy.
Jun 29, 2011, 6:16 AM
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Of course...and also remember how many times in training we are told 'this is what you do for the course, but in real life.... ' There is no way in hell I'm turning my back on an unaware student and tracking. I'm going backslide to a safe distance where I can keep an eye on him, both for my safety and for his own feedback at the end of the coach jump.
I agree... if the student is aware of the instructor. In this particular instance, from the time he inverted, there was no awareness at all of where I was, no look at altimeter, it was that glazed look we've all seen on students from time to time. This was confirmed on the ground in debrief. Another opinion is that if the student sees you beat feet and deploy, it'll trigger them to do the same. Every student knows (should know) a track signifies the end of the skydive. If they see you backsliding, they may think the skydive is still in progress, and not recognize the urgency to deploy.
Jun 29, 2011, 6:57 AM
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If they see you backsliding, they may think the skydive is still in progress, and not recognize the urgency to deploy
I personally backslide, but I'm either waving off (at wave off altitude) or giving them the pull signal while I'm doing it, and of course I pull at 3500. I go over those signals on the ground every time.
I can understand the notion of tracking, but I think it's better to keep eyes on the student and I think you can get the 'pull' message across without tracking.
Jun 29, 2011, 9:26 AM
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Sorry, but I have to disagree with both of you. There are very good reasons why USPA has the "end of coach jump" procedures, and it's important to properly explain them to the student and then follow them exactly, and giving the pull sign is not part of the drill. The idea is to clearly indicate to the student that the dive is over. 1. Wave off 2. turn and track to gain sufficient seperation 3. Deploy at or hopefully above the student's minimum pull altitude.
What should the student be trained? 1.If you see me wave off, turn and track, then deploy 2. If you see me turn and track, deploy immediately 3. If you see me deploy, deploy immediately
Having you watch the student go low has no benifit for the student. Being able to tell the student how low they went has no benifit for the student. The dive was over. Just because the student didn't do their job is no reason for you not to do yours. Instructors go in or get the Cypres award because they lack the dicipline to follow standard procedures every time. From a selfish point of view, follow the procedures to protect yourself. If you student ends up dead or injured because of lack of deployment at a proper altitiude, your having done everything "by the book" is your protection. Having done thing your way rather than the USPA way can be used against you to indicate possible neglegence.
Jun 29, 2011, 10:07 AM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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He was back on his belly again & looking at you at 4,500 Jen - you said so yourself. You began to then flash him signs and signals. Further down to 3,500. My contention is, that if you instead gave one good affirmative/solid/assertive waive, turned, tracked - BURNED and deployed ...he would not have then continued all the way down to 2,300. And THAT is the prescribed procedure, which also should have been adhered to, IMO.
Again - not trying to be either disparaging or adversarial - just trying to take advantage of the valuable OPPORTUNITY you have presented us, to deeper evaluate, consider - and yes, because I think it is in this case appropriate to do so: "Monday morning QB" even, just a bit.
You are absolutely right that the Cat-G dive flow states that normal diveflow calls for the coach to remain in place to observe the students track. However - (Coaches Rating Course IRM Section 8, Para E {7}): "The Coach observes the student execute the planned breakoff without signal (from coach) - UNLESS NECESSARY, and track. IOW - if/when (as in this case) the student (for whatever reason) fails to recognize his planned/assigned break-off track altitude himself - your "job" then becomes CLEAR... ...and that is that then YOU DO IT! It shows him (her) - it "wakes them up", and it is (or should be) very clearly defined (and pre-planned) that if/when they see you do that - they then DEPLOY IMMEDIATELY.
That procedure has been tried, true, and PROVEN TO BE EFFECTIVE (sometimes, sadly - even) IN BLOOD.
I see no reason (even in your case illustration given) to have deviated from it.
Jun 29, 2011, 10:37 AM
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I did NOT say he was looking at me... I said that I gave a signal. Those are two entirely different things. How many hand signals have you given to students that they were completely unaware of? As I have said repeatedly, he had no awareness below the 6K, and this was confirmed in the debrief. Me turning and tracking would have had no effect differently as he had no registration of where I was.
It's ok to Monday morning quarterback... had I turned/tracked at 5500, and posted exactly this scenario, some on here would be telling me not to turn my back on an obviously unaware student, because if he suddenly decided to track in my general direction due to disorientation, the results could be fatal in that particular instance (and this is exactly why I did not turn/track, and I would do the same thing in the same situation again).
To me... directly watching an unaware student and maintaining an appropriate separation is safer than turning/tracking, potentially losing sight of said student, and setting both of us up for an in air or canopy collision. This is also a lesson that has been learned in blood, and I prefer that it not be mine that ends up shed.
Jun 29, 2011, 10:48 AM
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This particular student... no. This isn't the first time he's had issues with awareness overall, alti awareness, etc. That's the problem with armchair quarterbacking... I know the student involved, have made multiple jumps with this student, and know how he tends to respond (or not) in the case of stress or disorientation. In a generic scenario, you absolutely have valid points, and with another student I likely would have turned/tracked. With THIS student on THIS jump, what I did was appropriate.
That's why the armchair quarterbacking is a good thing though... all the scenarios get discussed. All the options and possibilities get discussed. Conversations like this one are an asset to the sport and should happen more frequently.
Jun 29, 2011, 11:33 AM
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"end of coach jump" procedures, and it's important to properly explain them to the student and then follow them exactly, and giving the pull sign is not part of the drill. . . Having you watch the student go low has no benefit for the student. Being able to tell the student how low they went has no benefit for the student. The dive was over. Just because the student didn't do their job is no reason for you not to do yours.......
As an AFFI, it's hard to not go to them, pull for them, and keep giving signals hoping for awareness. But if it's a coach jump.....then we need to be in coach role.
I agree wholeheartedly with the quote above. And I can't really think of any exceptions right now. and that really does includes this specific scenario also (sorry, Jen).
Plan the dive, dive the plan - that goes for RW and FF, CrW, big ways, AND teaching dives.
Jen - pretty brave of you to put this out there for everyone - it's clear that you are trying to do the best for each student from your perspective. Thanks.
(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 29, 2011, 11:38 AM)
Jun 29, 2011, 11:35 AM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Now though, with my above post being said, and stipulated... ...I'm still not so sure your contention (that turning & burning would not have been effective in this case) is entirely correct; and think is still worth a little deeper, and further consideration / re- reflection.
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This particular student... no. This isn't the first time he's had issues with awareness overall, alti awareness, etc. That's the problem with armchair quarterbacking... I know the student involved, have made multiple jumps with this student, and know how he tends to respond (or not) in the case of stress or disorientation. In a generic scenario, you absolutely have valid points, and with another student I likely would have turned/tracked. With THIS student on THIS jump, what I did was appropriate.
Okay - Fair enough. Clearly neither I, nor any of "us" (outside now looking in) were there. I get that. Now, I've had to sometimes even reconsider myself however, the other side of that very same coin. - What I mean by that, is your "familiarity" with the subject jumper maybe even working against you. Meaning - that still maybe ...just maybe still - the SOP procedure just may have worked / been appropriate / been effective? You "pre-supposed" (in a way), so you ended up putting you both in that (self-fulfilling prophecy) situation?
Sometimes it is even better to have a completely "un-tainted" unfamiliar coach/instructor with the student in this situation - and then "magically", the SOP procedure actually works! ...I've seen that happen, 1st hand
Earlier you posted:
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I did NOT say he was looking at me... I said that I gave a signal.
I have to presume he was at least "looking in your direction"? - Otherwise, why would you even bother giving signals? Now, yes - "looking", and actually REGISTERING are indeed entirely different things. I do not contend with you on that. However, it is actually PRECISELY why then (when they are not registering) - the "YOU waive, turn / track / deploy" - is specifically designed.
You did not turn/track yourself:
Quote:
because if he suddenly decided to track in my general direction due to disorientation, the results could be fatal
I disagree (but I could be wrong), as I have yet to see a Cat-G coaching student who can (or even for that matter really should) be able to even come close to catch up to me (to put themselves BACK into that proximity where this could be a legitimate concern) - nor should be able to really ANY coach - for that to be an issue.
Again, "the procedure" is designed to specifically AVOID / preclude such exposure.
Yup - again, all this is clearly "Monday morning quarterbacking", but I still contend that instead, executing the proper established procedure - for the most part (was this single jump possibly the/an exception? - I don't know - but I still think maybe it wasn't) - is probably best.
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Conversations like this one are an asset to the sport and should happen more frequently.
Jun 29, 2011, 12:04 PM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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This particular student... no. This isn't the first time he's had issues with awareness overall, alti awareness, etc. That's the problem with armchair quarterbacking... I know the student involved, have made multiple jumps with this student, and know how he tends to respond (or not) in the case of stress or disorientation. In a generic scenario, you absolutely have valid points, and with another student I likely would have turned/tracked. With THIS student on THIS jump, what I did was appropriate.
Sorry, It was not. If the student was locked so bad that he didn't respond to hand signals, what good was your being there watching. If the student was so locked that the sight of your canopy deploying wouldn't have made a difference, OSB.....
Jun 29, 2011, 5:50 PM
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...Just because the student didn't do their job is no reason for you not to do yours......
As an AFFI, it's hard to not go to them, pull for them, and keep giving signals hoping for awareness. But if it's a coach jump.....then we need to be in coach role.
OK. All's well and good, I guess, for someone with only a Coach rating. What you guys are talking about is Coach rating stuff. And, you are correct in what you are saying....for Coaches.
If things go to crap on the Coach jump I'm doing, I'm putting my AFFI skills to work. I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit there (or continue to track away or pull) and watch somebody go in just because it's a Coach dive. Sorry guys, but that's me.
I'd never be able to live with myself. YMMV.
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Plan the dive, dive the plan - that goes for RW and FF, CrW, big ways, AND teaching dives.
Jun 29, 2011, 5:55 PM
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Sorry, It was not. .
Sorry, it was.
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If the student was locked so bad that he didn't respond to hand signals, what good was your being there watching. If the student was so locked that the sight of your canopy deploying wouldn't have made a difference, OSB.....
Well, some of us place more importance on living than on by-the-book rules that could result in disaster when there are viable options available. Jenn's jump was maybe one of those times, IMO. I'll not second-guess her.
Jun 29, 2011, 6:27 PM
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If things go to crap on the Coach jump I'm doing, I'm putting my AFFI skills to work.
I'll agree with that - above the pull altitude for the student. Fly in, dock, tap him on the helmet and show him your altimeter.
You gonna pull for him, too when he should be released for self supervision?
I guess if you trained him to pull if he sees you track away, then that's the plan. Above that trained altitude, I'll do whatever I can to augment his training, as well.
In Jen's case, if the student has a history of this, why on earth is he cleared with a known issue of something that's passing criteria on all 7 AFF levels?
(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 29, 2011, 6:31 PM)
Jun 29, 2011, 8:37 PM
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In reply to:
Sorry, It was not. .
Sorry, it was.
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If the student was locked so bad that he didn't respond to hand signals, what good was your being there watching. If the student was so locked that the sight of your canopy deploying wouldn't have made a difference, OSB.....
Well, some of us place more importance on living than on by-the-book rules that could result in disaster when there are viable options available. Jenn's jump was maybe one of those times, IMO. I'll not second-guess her.
OK, I'm open to this. What part of tracking, sufficient separation and then deploying would end the life of the coach, or result in disaster. We aren't talking about something up high, and she didn't dock and roll the student over or deploy for the student. Is sitting there watching this happen the viable option you're referring to, or is there another viable option that I'm missing. To quote you, from an earlier post in this same thread "USPA can come up with any and all the "training" programs they can dream up and people will do what's necessary to pass the course and then promptly throw it all by the wayside and go off on their own doing whatever they damn well please as long as they get paid to do whatever stupid shit they can come up with. "
(This post was edited by ufk22 on Jun 29, 2011, 8:53 PM)
Jun 29, 2011, 10:06 PM
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I was trained in my coach course to track away at an angle (120deg not 180) and continue to watch the student in this scenario. The reasoning was specifically for an off heading track or any other issues. I plan to follow this procedure if I'm presented with an unresponsive student at break off. Yes, it's harder to give feedback to the student on what's going on but I feel it's a good compromise.
Jun 30, 2011, 1:50 AM
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OK, I'm open to this. What part of tracking, sufficient separation and then deploying would end the life of the coach, or result in disaster.
I'm sure this is simply a tongue-in-cheek question since I'm sure you already know the answer. What's funny is that you would even ask.
In reply to:
Is sitting there watching this happen the viable option you're referring to, or is there another viable option that I'm missing.
Again, why would you need to ask such a question?
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To quote you, from an earlier post in this same thread "USPA can come up with any and all the "training" programs they can dream up and people will do what's necessary to pass the course and then promptly throw it all by the wayside and go off on their own doing whatever they damn well please as long as they get paid to do whatever stupid shit they can come up with. "
Jun 30, 2011, 5:40 AM
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In Reply To If the student was locked so bad that he didn't respond to hand signals, what good was your being there watching. If the student was so locked that the sight of your canopy deploying wouldn't have made a difference, OSB.....Well, some of us place more importance on living than on by-the-book rules that could result in disaster when there are viable options available. Jenn's jump was maybe one of those times, IMO. I'll not second-guess her. reply]
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OK, I'm open to this. What part of tracking, sufficient separation and then deploying would end the life of the coach, or result in disaster.
I'm sure this is simply a tongue-in-cheek question since I'm sure you already know the answer. What's funny is that you would even ask.
In reply to:
Is sitting there watching this happen the viable option you're referring to, or is there another viable option that I'm missing.
Again, why would you need to ask such a question?
In reply to:
To quote you, from an earlier post in this same thread "USPA can come up with any and all the "training" programs they can dream up and people will do what's necessary to pass the course and then promptly throw it all by the wayside and go off on their own doing whatever they damn well please as long as they get paid to do whatever stupid shit they can come up with. "
Totally different context altogether.No, seriously, you need to back up what you've said. YOU are the one that mentioned not following procedure in order to live. YOU are the one that mentioned "other viable options" being used. I've run a lot of coach courses over the years, and I've never talked about "do this to pass the course, but ignore this in the real world." If there truly is a way to justify what happened on the coach dive we're talking about, I'd like to hear it. I'm always open to changing what and how I teach my candidates to do things. You have a lot of years in the sport and a lot of instructional experience, as do i, but I need some clarification on this. Otherwise, I can only assume this is more of the "my friends and I are always right in our decisions, but people I don't know or don't like don't know shit" school of skydiving. There are plenty of coaches and potential coaches that read these threads. I think I've explained my point of view. If you have a valid point here, I will admit my error. If you aren't willing to explain your points, it only confuses these people that are trying to learn.
Jun 30, 2011, 6:16 AM
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My understanding of pops reply is that the rules for instructors are there to save the instructors life.
No instructor is obliged to "chase a student into the ground". So while the rules tell you to give up at x altitude and save your life, under certain circumstances he will bend or break those rules knowing full well that he is compromising his own safety.
I guess rules for instructors come in 2 buckets, those to protect the well being of your students, and those to protect you.
I am just stating my understanding of his post(s). I may be completely wrong though.
Jun 30, 2011, 6:53 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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You're getting mixed up here. There are two different sets of rules for two different levels of instructors.
A coach is trained and required to have jump experience thus that they are not expected or intended for catching, stabilzing, or pulling for students. As such, the best thing they can do is to follow the dive plan, and track off at the correct time, hopefully helping the student to understand that the skydive is over.
An AFF I has a higher level of required experience, and is trained to catch, stabilze and pull for students. As such, they have more options available to them when dealing with problems on a skydive, be it student, coach, or even a licensed jumper.
The coach should never deviate from their stated purpose, that being to dirt dive, gear checks, monitor the student in the plane and freefall, observe the canopy control and debrief the student.
As for the AFFI, the 'generally accepted' policy is that you stop chasing the student at 2k, when you are 'supposed to' open your own parachute. As I mentioned before, if you don't have hand-on-harness by 1500ft, your chances are slim of beating the Cypres, not being involved in a Cypres-induced wrap, or being able to deploy both the student and yourself, so you might as well give up.
The difference is that an AFF I would know this, and have a better chance of having the situational awareness to see if they would make that 'cut off' altitude or not. If you're at 2500ft and still 50 ft from a student spinning on their back, you know to just dump because you know how long it would take to get there and get to the handle. A coach might just 'keep trying' because they have no experience or training for them to know what's really involved in pulling for another jumper.
The other difference, and this is not in all cases, but most, is that the majority of AFF Is would never let things get that far out of hand. They would never be that far away in the first place, and would never let a situation develop to the point where they were so far out of their slot on the bottom end of the skydive.
Jun 30, 2011, 7:28 AM
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Thanks for explaining.
I had thought that some people were saying, that because it is a coach jump you should folllow the coach rule set, EVEN if you are an AFF-I. That means that even though you have the ability to catch and stabilise, you shouldn't because it is a coach jump.
I realize that chasing someone when you are not trained to do so, could easily place you both in more danger than following the rules.
Jun 30, 2011, 7:34 AM
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I had thought that some people were saying, that because it is a coach jump you should folllow the coach rule set, EVEN if you are an AFF-I. That means that even though you have the ability to catch and stabilise, you shouldn't because it is a coach jump.
I think some people might be saying that. I disagree with that point (obviously).
Jun 30, 2011, 8:59 AM
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Thanks for explaining.
I had thought that some people were saying, that because it is a coach jump you should folllow the coach rule set, EVEN if you are an AFF-I. That means that even though you have the ability to catch and stabilise, you shouldn't because it is a coach jump.
My point was you should follow one or the other. From what's been posted about this dive... Student on his back at 6K, back on his belly at 4.5K. 1. As a coach, at 5.5K you should immediately wave off, track and deploy, hopefully in his line of sight. 2, As AFF-I, you have the option of docking, rollover if necessary, give him the pull sign and deploying for him if he gets below 4K. In this case, neither was done. The Instructor gave hand signal for altitude awareness, backslid, and didn't deploy til after the student had turned and initiated a low track with his back to her. With the student tracking away below 3.5K, the chances of catching and deploying for the student were getting slim, so I'm not saying that the Instructor should have then been chasing the student down. The deployment by the coah at 3.5K seemed to be the only thing done right, but it was done after the coach was no longer in the student's view. A dump at 4K with adequate seperation (per the SIM and IRM), before the student turned, would have been a better option.
Jun 30, 2011, 9:23 AM
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My point was you should follow one or the other.
And I would disagree with that given the multi-rating situation.
Since you didn't understand my post, please re-read Dave's post. He does have a way with words. Thanks, Dave.
Your assumptions about my postings are entirely off-base. Your comment, "Otherwise, I can only assume this is more of the "my friends and I are always right in our decisions, but people I don't know or don't like don't know shit" school of skydiving. "
...was uncalled for.
(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 30, 2011, 9:26 AM)
Jun 30, 2011, 10:00 AM
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My point was you should follow one or the other.
And I would disagree with that given the multi-rating situation.
So if I have multiple ratings, I don't need to follow the proper procedure for either of them???
Since you didn't understand my post, please re-read Dave's post. He does have a way with words. Thanks, Dave.
In reply to:
Not that I didn't understand, just looking for some specific. Your response didn't really say anything.
Your assumptions about my postings are entirely off-base. Your comment, "Otherwise, I can only assume this is more of the "my friends and I are always right in our decisions, but people I don't know or don't like don't know shit" school of skydiving. "
...was uncalled for.
Well, this thread started with a coach without a lot of experience that watched a student go low, didn't take appropriate action, and then pulled low. He got totally reamed on this board, and not just for the altitude he pulled at. The situation in the later post was an experienced coach and AFF-I who also just watched a student go low, didn't take appropriate action, but did manage to pull at altitude (even if it was too late for her student to see), and you seem to think her actions were appropriate. I'm kinda slow on the uptake, so what I'm asking for is an explaination of why your responses about these two very similar situation (other than the deployment alltitude of the Coach/Instructor) seem very different.
Jun 30, 2011, 10:29 AM
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A coach is trained and required to have jump experience thus that they are not expected or intended for catching, stabilzing, or pulling for students. As such, the best thing they can do is to follow the dive plan, and track off at the correct time, hopefully helping the student to understand that the skydive is over.
An AFF I has a higher level of required experience, and is trained to catch, stabilze and pull for students. As such, they have more options available to them when dealing with problems on a skydive, be it student, coach, or even a licensed jumper.
Right. And Jen's initial post, I think, was put up specifically to illustrate the challenges, of when one is also an AFF-I, effectively "taking OFF the AFF-I hat", and restricting oneself in-air, during a coaching jump, to acting strictly in the role of a coach. I think her post also had great value to us to look at, and consider in that vein/light and illustration. I'm sure she had absolutely no intent on it becoming "dissected" so vociferously since, although she has indeed been gracious in her follow-up(s) to it, and further enhancing others consideration of it (and the subject matter over all). However, I cannot help but to now feel somewhat guilty for (being party to) any, clearly now getting to be, well "over-dissection" and supposition resulting of her otherwise clearly valuable "real life" anecdote, example, and provided perspective.
Just for the record.
I feel the roles are clear, and should be clearly separated. However difficult that may be to actually perform when "in the heat of battle" situation. In other words, when doing an AFF jump - exercising there, AFF procedures. When doing a Coaching jump, exercising there, strictly Coaching prescribed procedures. Someone also mentioned I think somewhere, that following these (I think again - clearly defined) procedures and not deviating from them, might also become your only protection from potential liability, and/or at the very least, being called to task as to explaining more clearly why you deviated from them.
It's a TOUGH job, with very real responsibilities and accountability. And anyone who approaches it (either AFF or Coaching) lightly or tritely could be setting themselves up for a very rude awakening.
Jen's (Perigrinrose) posts and perspective, based upon her real life experience she has been willing to share (THANK YOU JEN - FOR THE RECORD) have provided great added value to this conversation, and as with others (and all the other added perspectives to consider) - I appreciate 'em!
(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jun 30, 2011, 10:32 AM)
Jun 30, 2011, 10:44 AM
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I had thought that some people were saying, that because it is a coach jump you should folllow the coach rule set, EVEN if you are an AFF-I. That means that even though you have the ability to catch and stabilise, you shouldn't because it is a coach jump.
Actually for the record - I have said that. I think that the clear delineation between the 2, and establishing the full understanding in advance of that happening (on both the "students" and the coaches part) THEN DOING IT - i.e. plan the dive, DIVE THE PLAN ...is critical. And, crucial to also avoiding any (roles/actual performance expectation) potential in-air confusion.
Jun 30, 2011, 11:16 AM
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Well, this thread started with a coach without a lot of experience that watched a student go low, didn't take appropriate action, and then pulled low. He got totally reamed on this board, and not just for the altitude he pulled at. The situation in the later post was an experienced coach and AFF-I who also just watched a student go low, didn't take appropriate action, but did manage to pull at altitude (even if it was too late for her student to see), and you seem to think her actions were appropriate. I'm kinda slow on the uptake, so what I'm asking for is an explaination of why your responses about these two very similar situation (other than the deployment alltitude of the Coach/Instructor) seem very different.
Because although the situations were very similar, the skill level of the instructor was very different. As Perigrinerose (Jen) noted, it can be difficult for an AFF-I to "put away" the AFF-I skills and do "just" a coach jump. Stuff that is appropriate for an instructor to do on an AFF jump isn't so on a coach jump...
Until it goes bad. At which point an AFF-I has a much deeper toolbox of skills to use.
Which, under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances can mean the difference between a thread here, or one in Incidents.
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Jun 30, 2011, 1:27 PM
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Because although the situations were very similar, the skill level of the instructor was very different. As Perigrinerose (Jen) noted, it can be difficult for an AFF-I to "put away" the AFF-I skills and do "just" a coach jump. Stuff that is appropriate for an instructor to do on an AFF jump isn't so on a coach jump...
Until it goes bad. At which point an AFF-I has a much deeper toolbox of skills to use.
Which, under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances can mean the difference between a thread here, or one in Incidents.
This is all true, but to throw another viewpoint into the mix; If you're an Instructor, have major separation from your student (which seems to be the case in both situtions being discussed in this thread) and both instructor and student are burning through 2500' and the Instructor is still tossing signals. You're not going to catch the student and deploy for them by 2K. Therefore, the best course of action (IMO) is still to turn and burn, look over your shoulder to be sure the student isn't tracking with you, and deploy to notify the student they should be deployed.
Jun 30, 2011, 5:34 PM
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Because although the situations were very similar, the skill level of the instructor was very different. As Perigrinerose (Jen) noted, it can be difficult for an AFF-I to "put away" the AFF-I skills and do "just" a coach jump. Stuff that is appropriate for an instructor to do on an AFF jump isn't so on a coach jump...
Until it goes bad. At which point an AFF-I has a much deeper toolbox of skills to use.
Which, under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances can mean the difference between a thread here, or one in Incidents.
This is all true, but to throw another viewpoint into the mix; If you're an Instructor, have major separation from your student (which seems to be the case in both situtions being discussed in this thread) and both instructor and student are burning through 2500' and the Instructor is still tossing signals. You're not going to catch the student and deploy for them by 2K. Therefore, the best course of action (IMO) is still to turn and burn, look over your shoulder to be sure the student isn't tracking with you, and deploy to notify the student they should be deployed.
Absolutely. Which is why the non-AFF-I coach in the OP was wrong, and perigrinerose wasn't. He chased down way too low. She pulled at 3500, to try and signal the student to pull (post 113).
The AFF-I on a coach jump has a lot more skills and experience, and far better judgement in these sorts of situations. And is in a much better place to use that judgement to do "non-coach" stuff.
Jul 1, 2011, 5:39 AM
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So if I have multiple ratings, I don't need to follow the proper procedure for either of them???
I don't know. Do you? As far as I know you are free to do whatever you wish.
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Well, this thread started with
Justify all you want. The comment was uncalled for.
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I'm kinda slow on the uptake,
Agreed.
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...so what I'm asking for is an explaination of why your responses about these two very similar situation
What different responses are you talking about? The one here and the one in the other thread that you took totally out of context?
What got you started was my statement that I would put my AFFI skills to work on a Coach jump that went to shit. I stand by that. What it is about that statement that you don't understand, I don't know. Seems very clear to me.
YOU can do whatever you wish. I elect to do whatever I can to save a students ass if I can. YOU may have a problem with that and you're welcomed to it. I like to think that my students get a warm-fuzzy knowing that I will stick my nose in there to help instead of laying back watching them get themselves into trouble. YMMV.
Now, having said that.... Dude, you're trying my patience. Slow on the uptake is one thing. Mental density is another. Good day, sir.
Jul 1, 2011, 6:47 AM
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The AFF-I on a coach jump has a lot more skills and experience, and far better judgement in these sorts of situations. And is in a much better place to use that judgement to do "non-coach" stuff.
just to play devil's advocate - the rating someone chooses to go get doesn't guarantee more skill or better judgment (consider a 'coach' that has thousands of jumps and just didn't choose to pursue AFF rating vs a relatively new skydiver that passed the AFF course barely)
just authorization from USPA that he 'should' be
we can't assume a skill level just by virtue of the ratings held - we can only discuss what's appropriate for the authorization and SOPs allowed, and then whether the individual doing the teaching will choose to disregard those standards for either very good or bad reasons
I understand why Andy or Jen would choose to go above and beyond on a coach jump - and I'm ok with that provided the (released to self supervision) student is trained to those expectations and not what is 'typical' for coaches - I'd do it myself for special students, but it'll be clear before the jump, not changed during such that the student is possibly confused or distracted
little surprises during an excellent dives are great (adding turns to a really good Cat B, etc) - any surprises when things are already going bad just make it potentially worse. - IMO, IMHO, YMMV
for me, it's all about following the plan to eliminate surprises
in the end, we're best served by not passing on students that are not ready for self supervision - but that's not always easy to spot in just a couple CatD and Cat E jumps
(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 1, 2011, 6:48 AM)
Jul 1, 2011, 7:11 AM
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The AFF-I on a coach jump has a lot more skills and experience, and far better judgement in these sorts of situations. And is in a much better place to use that judgement to do "non-coach" stuff.
just to play devil's advocate - the rating someone chooses to go get doesn't guarantee more skill or better judgment (consider a 'coach' that has thousands of jumps and just didn't choose to pursue AFF rating vs a relatively new skydiver that passed the AFF course barely)
just authorization from USPA that he 'should' be
we can't assume a skill level just by virtue of the ratings held - we can only discuss what's appropriate for the authorization and SOPs allowed, and then whether the individual doing the teaching will choose to disregard those standards for either very good or bad reasons
I understand why Andy or Jen would choose to go above and beyond on a coach jump - and I'm ok with that provided the (released to self supervision) student is trained to those expectations and not what is 'typical' for coaches - I'd do it myself for special students, but it'll be clear before the jump, not changed during such that the student is possibly confused or distracted
little surprises during an excellent dives are great (adding turns to a really good Cat B, etc) - any surprises when things are already going bad just make it potentially worse. - IMO, IMHO, YMMV
for me, it's all about following the plan to eliminate surprises
in the end, we're best served by not passing on students that are not ready for self supervision - but that's not always easy to spot in just a couple CatD and Cat E jumps
Ok, I'll bite. (<--note smiley)
An AFF-I has been trained to catch, stabilize and pull for an out of control student. Even without a whole lot of experience, they do (in theory at least) know the proper procedure.
Even with thousands of coach jumps, a coach probably hasn't received that training, and hasn't had to demonstrate it to earn the rating. Say a jumper who loves working with students, but doesn't want the liability of beng an AFF-I and has stayed a coach for years.
And I fully agree with "Plan the dive, dive the plan".
But when things go to shit, you have to improvise. Not throw the plan out the window, but adjust it.
And once more, Perigrinerose pulled at 3500 as a signal to the student.
Jul 1, 2011, 8:22 AM
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Jen's (Perigrinrose) posts and perspective, based upon her real life experience she has been willing to share (THANK YOU JEN - FOR THE RECORD) have provided great added value to this conversation, and as with others (and all the other added perspectives to consider) - I appreciate 'em!
For the record, I'm not getting down on anyone, or Jen, for the choices she made. Each jump is different, and in her case the right move might have been to depart the scene and let the student sort things out on their own.
As an AFF I, she as the option to either stick to the coach plan and break off at break off, or deviate from that plan, fall back to her AFF training/experience, and take a different course of action. Which she chooses is up to her and dependent on the jump.
My point, and keeping in mind this thread started with a video of a coach chasing a re-cert jumper down the Cypres fire altitude and almost going in themselves, is that a coach has no such option, and they MUST leave the skydive at the predetermined time. They are not trained to catch, stabilze, or pull for anyone, and not trained to be engaged in a skydive below break off.
An AFF I has options available to them, while a coach is limited by a definite line in the sand, and that line is the break off altitude. Having the discipline to stick to that is the 'job' of the coach.
It's like tandem video exits. Ideally, you leave just ahead of them, and look up at them leaving with the plane in the background. If you're late, and you leave with them, you could end up next to them on the hill, which is downwind of the relative wind, and where the drouge goes when they toss it.
So the rule is that if you miss your exit timing, and don't get off ahead of them, you have to shut down instinct to exit, and let the tandem go by as you wait on the camera step. Once they go by, you trail them off the plane, so now you're looking down at them, and not in the 'hot zone' where the drouge is going. Having the presence of mind to stop yourself if you miss your leading exit and let them go by is a tough lesson for new video guys.
Same thing for the coach. Yes, things might not be going to plan on the bottom end, but that doesn't change your job. No matter how bad you want it to, you need to follow the break off plan, and remove yourself from the situation.
(This post was edited by davelepka on Jul 1, 2011, 8:24 AM)
Jul 12, 2011, 9:57 PM
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Wow...very interesting thread. I wish I could have seen the footage.
I earned my coach rating last year, and the perspectives here are invaluable to me. I remember an older jumper telling me while I was on student status, "I don't have any friends below 1500 feet."
In my VERY limited experience, I haven't had this situation occur, but I remember during the rating course how much importance was placed on ME not breaking MY hard deck - in fact, that was the one of the only things that would result in an automatic fail during an eval jump.
Just for a point of interest, here's the sequence I was taught for the end of the jump:
Student is to turn and track at 5500. If he/she does NOT, point to my altimeter, signal the wave off, turn 90 degrees to the student, and give the pull signal as I side slide away, pulling by 3500.
(Not saying this is what everyone should do, just what I was taught, and the procedure I follow, the idea being that you never have to take eyes off the student...until he/she pulls or disappears.)
Having said all of this, I still remember NOT being aware of being given the pull signal from one of my instructors on a 10-second delay - the only time I went low during my student progression. Then again, I WAS in an uncontrolled flat spin, and it's hard to recognize a signal that you're seeing only once per high-speed rotation.
(This post was edited by Gato on Jul 12, 2011, 9:58 PM)
Jul 14, 2011, 6:03 AM
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If a novice being coached sees their coach with them in freefall below breakoff altitude they may take this to mean that everything is ok if they have lost altitude awareness. On the other hand if a novice sees their coach deploy the message may get through that they had better do the same.
Jul 14, 2011, 10:36 PM
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Thanks for that explanation Dave. In addition to helping explain some of the reasons for not exceeding your training as a coach, you have also just shared invaluable info as to exactly WHY an inexperienced jumper should not be jumping with a tandem. Perhaps you should contribute this same explanation (and an explanation of the "trap door" effect) to a new thread in Safety about the differences between jumping with tandems and a "regular" jump. I would bet most (if not all) sub-300 jumpers have never even thought about relative wind and its affect on the drogue throw.
Apparently the jumpers altimeter stuck, and coach/instructor keeps giving the jumper the finger. Both deployed mains, but not high enough to avoided the AAD fire.
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Aug 4, 2011, 8:48 PM
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Here's another dual two-out with a coach/instructor on a recert dive.
Apparently the jumpers altimeter stuck, and coach/instructor keeps giving the jumper the finger. Both deployed mains, but not high enough to avoided the AAD fire.
There is nothing "recent" about that video except for the three-year ago upload of something that occurred 5 years ago. Still a good teaching tool tho.
Aug 5, 2011, 7:40 AM
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Re: [cantstandya] Chasing your student into the ground!?!
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Yeah, I meant "recertification", although probably should have said "recurrency".
Thought it relevant to the discussion above about how long a coach and/or instructor should stick with someone not pulling on time. In this case, it is very likely that had the coach pulled on time, the jumper would have done so shortly thereafter, avoiding the dual two-out. (Clearly giving the pull sign wasn't doing it)
... for a DAmn long time.... 
right???
very poor form...All people have done is comment on the video, which was posted here....
