Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Two canapies out in a downplane

 


mikeLooney  (D 33286)

Jun 5, 2011, 5:42 PM
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Two canapies out in a downplane Can't Post

This weekend I had an experience I hope does not repeat itself. At 3500 feet, I pulled my pud and tossed my pilot out. I expected the usual tug from my main canopy opening but it didn't happen. At 2200 feet I pulled my reserve and left my main cutaway handle in place. The reserve opened fine, but I immediately felt a second tug and discovered that my main opened. The reserve went into a down plane facing me and my main went to my back in a downplane. At first it created a rocking motion but quickly turned into an accelerating spin. I really don't know caused this to happen. I think either my main's pilot was not catching air and was in my burble or I had some sort of bag-lock that popped free when my reserve deployed. What do you think? What would you have done differently? Oh and yes, I landed off but safely. Thank God for baseball fields!


(This post was edited by mikeLooney on Jun 5, 2011, 6:01 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 5, 2011, 6:13 PM
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Re: [mikeLooney] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Sounds like maybe you had a hesitation, from not throwing your pilot chute out properly, and just dumped it into your burble.

If you sit up after throwing, it will normally clear a hesitation. Did you have a look before dumping your reserve?, because you don't mention doing so....

So how did you deal with the downplane....chop the main?, or sort it out....


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 5, 2011, 6:30 PM
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

pretty ordinary EP practice.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 6, 2011, 6:13 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like maybe you had a hesitation, from not throwing your pilot chute out properly, and just dumped it into your burble.

If you sit up after throwing, it will normally clear a hesitation. Did you have a look before dumping your reserve?, because you don't mention doing so....

So how did you deal with the downplane....chop the main?, or sort it out....

The OP may have had a p/c in the burble, but "sitting up" after pitching is a really bad idea. Doing so can result in everything from a hard opening to a horseshoe mal from snagging.

A better idea might be to do what every - I hope - student is taught in the FJC. Simply tip your sholders off-level by looking over your shoulder to see what's happening back there. I have yet to see that not clear a burbled p/c just fine.


shayelk  (B License)

Jun 6, 2011, 8:30 AM
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Re: [mikeLooney] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What do you think? What would you have done differently?

I was taught if you pulled and nothing happened- tip your shoulders and look back to see what's up- still nothing? chop first, THEN deploy reserve. you chop to avoid this exact scenario


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 6, 2011, 8:34 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The OP may have had a p/c in the burble, but "sitting up" after pitching is a really bad idea. Doing so can result in everything from a hard opening to a horseshoe mal from snagging.

I didn't actually mean going to a sitfly position. After pitching, arms forward and tucking the knees in a little will pitch the body up. (About 45 degrees into a bit of a backsliding position). This is a good position to be in when then going for your handles. Your head is also pointing in the right direction to see the next sequence of events.

Going from flat to head down, also gives a chance of an entanglement with the legs, and also can give a snappy opening as you get the big flick....

Another advantage is it keeps your shoulders square and even. (I wasn't sure what sort of canopy he was jumping, not a biggie on a student canopy, but something smaller and faster might make for a different opening experience..)

Quote:
A better idea might be to do what every - I hope - student is taught in the FJC. Simply tip your sholders off-level by looking over your shoulder to see what's happening back there. I have yet to see that not clear a burbled p/c just fine.

As you say, the method taught for clearing a hesitation for generations is still valid, but I've seen it not work if done lazily, with a pilot chute just sitting on the butt...

Both methods work, I prefer sitting up a little....

Pitching the pilot chute vigorously is the lesson to absorb....


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2011, 8:48 AM
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Re: [mikeLooney] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think either my main's pilot was not catching air and was in my burble or I had some sort of bag-lock that popped free when my reserve deployed. What do you think? What would you have done differently?

This is scary. You reacted having no clue what was going on.
I think you need to revisit, study, drill and re-drill your life-saving EPs.

I think you got lucky.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2011, 8:55 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you sit up after throwing, it will normally clear a hesitation.
Careful here, IMHO. OP, 167 jumps listed, little knowledge of EPs.
If he doesn't know to look, I'd be hesitant to tell him to do anything else while not knowing what was going on.

In reply to:
Did you have a look before dumping your reserve?

He obviously didn't look because he had no idea what problem he had...that's why he's asking what happened.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 6, 2011, 8:56 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think either my main's pilot was not catching air and was in my burble or I had some sort of bag-lock that popped free when my reserve deployed. What do you think? What would you have done differently?

This is scary. You reacted having no clue what was going on.
I think you need to revisit, study, drill and re-drill your life-saving EPs.

I think you got lucky.

With a lazy throw can you see the pilot chute if you look over your shoulder?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2011, 9:20 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
With a lazy throw can you see the pilot chute if you look over your shoulder?
Yes, that's what you do. Oftentimes, you can even feel it back there.
If you don't rotate, something is going on behind you that is not standing you up. Look over your shoulder while maintaining your good, neutral body position.

Alternatively, check every time.
Arch
Reach
Throw
Check

The only problem with that is that you may have something else going on that doesn't manifest itself right away and you may miss it if you check too early in the opening process.


SwampGod  (D 27345)

Jun 6, 2011, 9:31 AM
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Re: [shayelk] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was taught if you pulled and nothing happened- tip your shoulders and look back to see what's up- still nothing? chop first, THEN deploy reserve. you chop to avoid this exact scenario

We simplify emergency procedures for the First Jump Course. Muscle memory and acting fast are more important than trying to remember subtle details. So we teach students to cutaway first in emergency situations.

However, you'll find many more experienced jumpers (myself included) that would go straight to their reserve in a hard pull, low pull, or pilot chute-in-tow. In this case (I've thrown my pilot chute but nothing came out), I'd rather have a two-out than a main entangling in my reserve.

I'm not trying to turn this into a debate on which method is better, for there seems to be a fairly even split on how people would react. Just be aware that it's acceptable to not cutaway first in some situations, assuming you are situationally aware enough to act fast and PROPERLY.

Thanks!

-eli


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 6, 2011, 9:49 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
He obviously didn't look because he had no idea what problem he had...that's why he's asking what happened.

I'm aware of that, but I wanted HIM to answer the question...


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jun 6, 2011, 10:29 AM
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Re: [mikeLooney] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I pulled my pud and tossed my pilot out. I expected the usual tug from my main canopy opening but it didn't happen.

"Pud" being the operative word here. Unless the OP is misnaming the equipment, I would look more at misrouted lanyard or uncocked pilotchute.

top


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 6, 2011, 10:58 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The OP may have had a p/c in the burble, but "sitting up" after pitching is a really bad idea. Doing so can result in everything from a hard opening to a horseshoe mal from snagging.

I didn't actually mean going to a sitfly position. After pitching, arms forward and tucking the knees in a little will pitch the body up. (About 45 degrees into a bit of a backsliding position). This is a good position to be in when then going for your handles. Your head is also pointing in the right direction to see the next sequence of events.

First, I said nothing about transitioning to a sitfly position. Second, tilting 45 degrees backwards creates a radical backslide, so if the burbled p/c takes any amount of time before launching, the jumper would have a dramatic increase in fall rate which could result in a hard opening. It could also lead to the main bag, lines, and risers hitting or snagging on the bottom of the reserve container resulting in a horseshoe or in-the-bag line twists, a p/c bridle snagging on a main container flap, and any number of other issues.

And for the sake of newbies who may actually take your advise to heart, please don't . Newbs, your equipment was designed to deploy in a belly-to-earth, stable body position. Your best chance of a good opening is to stay that way to let everything cleanly lift off your back and be pulled away from you.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 6, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

 You might have noticed me saying "I prefer to do this", and that the traditional method is as valid as it has ever been.

I'm not into giving advice that is likely to hurt people or cause problems....

The OP has about 170 jumps or so...I would expect him to be able to modify his opening sequence to prevent hesitations, which is what I was suggesting to him....adjusting your body position as you dump to prevent hesitations.

I'm surprised after 170 jumps he seems unaware of what to do, although he's obviously done it successfully most times.

I wasn't advocating a true sitting position nor throwing in a backloop or anything radical..

Its basically adopting the position the canopy pulls you into as it deploys anyway...

The normal track off, flare, wave, then pitch puts your body basically into the position I am talking about. Its almost one continuous movement.

I bet if you watch yourself on video, thats prolly what you will see....

Anyway, the point is really about pitching properly in the first place.


mikeLooney  (D 33286)

Jun 6, 2011, 11:59 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok. thanks everyone. I have ruled out the following: The PC was cocked as i checked it twice. My rig is equipped with a pud. My throw was normal so I am pretty sure it was not a lazy one but it could have still been caught in my burble. At the end of the day, I cut away my main and landed safely with my reserve. I just was trying to learn from the experience of others and share mine so we can all fly safely and enjoy the sport. Peace.


(This post was edited by mikeLooney on Jun 6, 2011, 12:01 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 6, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The normal track off, flare, wave, then pitch puts your body basically into the position I am talking about. Its almost one continuous movement.

I bet if you watch yourself on video, thats prolly what you will see....

Uh, no I wouldn't. And I can honestly say I have never seen videos or real-world situations - and I've seen and/or videoed my share - in which anyone routinely sat up by 45 degrees from horizontal to insure p/c launch as you suggested.

Maybe you could provide us with a youtube link or two depicting people sitting up at 45 degrees after pitching out.

I'd love to see them. Really. Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2011, 5:14 PM
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
He obviously didn't look because he had no idea what problem he had...that's why he's asking what happened.

I'm aware of that, but I wanted HIM to answer the question...

Ooooops...sorry.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2011, 5:20 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And for the sake of newbies who may actually take your advise to heart, please don't . Newbs, your equipment was designed to deploy in a belly-to-earth, stable body position. Your best chance of a good opening is to stay that way to let everything cleanly lift off your back and be pulled away from you.

+1
That's the way it was designed to work. That's the way it works best. Students are trained for solid, stable, neutral body position at opening time for a reason and that's it.

Thanks, Chuck


tdog  (D 28800)

Jun 7, 2011, 6:45 AM
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Re: [SwampGod] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

We simplify emergency procedures for the First Jump Course. Muscle memory and acting fast are more important than trying to remember subtle details. So we teach students to cutaway first in emergency situations.
-eli

Here is some interesting reading on Hicks Law - and the time it takes to make multiple decisions:

http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/hickslaw.htm

Any way you interpret the data - having multiple "if this, then this" type reactions take additional time - some might argue as much time as it would take just to cut away and pull your reserve instead of deciding if you should cut away first, then reacting...

Therefore - I like for both students and experienced skydivers alike:

"If you moved your hand towards your main, and it did not work - cutaway and pull your reserve. If you decided to go straight to your reserve, that is just fine."

This simplifies the process into one yes/no solution.


But you say:
Quote:
However, you'll find many more experienced jumpers (myself included) that would go straight to their reserve in a hard pull, low pull, or pilot chute-in-tow. In this case (I've thrown my pilot chute but nothing came out), I'd rather have a two-out than a main entangling in my reserve.

I agree with the low pull - it fits my rule. Hard pull - nope, I still cutaway. It is too time consuming for me to ask myself, "why is it a hard pull? Did I pull it too far such that it might dislodge on reserve activation?" But I would not worry if someone else said, "hard pulls - I just go to my reserve"...

But one comment of yours that caught my eye - the PC in tow -- I have always had the school of thought I rather cut away first and then deploy my reserve in a PC in tow situation as the reserve opening might dislodge the pin and allow the main to try to open. This is further justified as I don't know if I will always have the wherewithal and ability to see/differentiate between a PC in tow and a baglock, and if I have a baglock I want all that crap to leave before I put my reserve into the airspace. And, I could tow that PC for a while before it opens, and if I should happen to be on landing, I don't want it to open then. I also don't want to be trying to grab it behind me after my reserve opens when I should be trying to pick a safe landing spot.

So what are your reasons for wanting the PC in tow to stay connected?

I honestly wonder - are there stories of PC in tows that have been cut away - and the timing sucked so bad that the cutaway PC in tow cleared in a way to foul the reserve as the reserve was opening - such that keeping it connected for the same scenario would have been preferred???


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 7, 2011, 7:01 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Maybe you could provide us with a youtube link or two depicting people sitting up at 45 degrees after pitching out.

I'd love to see them. Really. Wink

Sorry I can't post pictures or clips....but just to clarify a point.

Are you saying that being in a head up body position during deployment of a parachute is somehow dangerous?.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Jun 7, 2011, 7:03 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 7, 2011, 7:25 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
+1
That's the way it was designed to work. That's the way it works best. Students are trained for solid, stable, neutral body position at opening time for a reason and that's it.

I totally agree, and thats how I train my students.....

Hey, I'm not looking for a shitfight here, And I'm aware of the danger giving advice that can be taken the wrong way,

But, my reply to the OP as you may recall, simply asks him "Did you look".

It was a specific question directed at a jumper with 170 odd jumps already under his belt, who should have a better idea of what to do than appears to be the case..

I suggested a way of altering the airflow over his body in a slightly different way, which can be incorporated into the wave off and pitch action, that would likely minimise the chances of a hesitation.

At no time did I suggest to the skydiving world changing the time honoured method of checking for a PC hesitation was a good idea, and especially not for students.

For more experienced jumpers, especially with a HP canopy, keeping the shoulders level during deployment minimises the chance of a snakey opening...Nothing wrong with being in a head up position after pitching.

Most jumpers would be putting their arms forward after pitching.....even Chuck, though he says no.....

There is nothing dangerous in being in a head up position during deployment, and it sure beats being head down, on your side, or on your back.....


DanG  (D 22351)

Jun 7, 2011, 8:32 AM
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Re: [tdog] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I honestly wonder - are there stories of PC in tows that have been cut away - and the timing sucked so bad that the cutaway PC in tow cleared in a way to foul the reserve as the reserve was opening - such that keeping it connected for the same scenario would have been preferred???

I believe that's what happened to Mike McGowan. The video is probably floating around out there somewhere. His departing main riser snagged the reserve slider, and pulled it back up the reserve lines. He only survived because he landed in tall trees that broke his fall.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 7, 2011, 9:12 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Maybe you could provide us with a youtube link or two depicting people sitting up at 45 degrees after pitching out.

I'd love to see them. Really. Wink

Sorry I can't post pictures or clips....but just to clarify a point.

Are you saying that being in a head up body position during deployment of a parachute is somehow dangerous?.

You can't post a link to a youtube video of jumpers routinely at a 45 degree head-hi angle to the horizon making sure their pilot chutes launch cleanly? That really surprises me because I thought sure you would find tons of the real pro skydivers doing it in skyvids. After all, there are plenty - thousands, probably - of shots on youtube of people deploying. Surely you could find just a few to illustrate your point.

Tell ya what, Einstein. You post even just a handful of links to those types of videos and we can talk. Until then I'll just consider you another crackpot posting horsesh*t that some unsuspecting noob might actually do someday because "it sounded like a good idea at the time".

Careful who you listen to out there, kids.Wink


hchunter614  (B 30368)

Jun 7, 2011, 9:33 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes but we also teach students to throw, (count) 1000, 2000, 3000, check. That "check" is looking over your shoulder to ensure you have a canopy, which you usually do. If you do have a PC caught in your burble, the check should clear it and allow the deployment sequence to continue.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 7, 2011, 9:51 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

 You failed to answer my question, so I'll repeat it.

Is a head up body position during parachute deployment dangerous?.

Simple question, simple answer, yes or no.

And I've made it quite clear that I was not referring in any way to students or their training. Perhaps you didn't notice that in your haste to get the flamethrower lit up....

I'm not able to post pictures or clips with the computer I'm using at the moment., not that I don't want to.

But, and this goes back to when throw out pilot chutes were invented...one example

There was a series of shots that came out maybe 30 years ago, of Terry Gardiner deploying the new fangled Wonderhog, I think you'll find the sequence in Skies Call 2 or 3.

Take a look at his body position.

It was also printed on T shirts like a film strip of the deployment sequence.

Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying.

Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle.

Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2.

None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong.

Quick, alert the relevant authorities. I'm sure they'll listen to you...


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jun 7, 2011, 9:57 AM
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Re: [hchunter614] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Although the OP's original posts leaves us with the impression that he was unaware of the correct EP's, at the end of the day is sounds like he did the right thing under the circumstance(dealing with the total mal). Smile

Good job of cutting away that downplane. I've seen way to many people ride those in. And, there is no good reason (in my mind) for that. Unsure

OP... Thanks for your post. If nothing else, it made us think about the situation again and mentally practice our EP's. Cool


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jun 7, 2011, 10:12 AM
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Re: [mikeLooney] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok. thanks everyone. I have ruled out the following: The PC was cocked as i checked it twice. My rig is equipped with a pud. My throw was normal so I am pretty sure it was not a lazy one but it could have still been caught in my burble. At the end of the day, I cut away my main and landed safely with my reserve. I just was trying to learn from the experience of others and share mine so we can all fly safely and enjoy the sport. Peace.

Then check your routing of the bridle, it may be getting trapped by your d-bag against the bottom of the reserve container when you s-fold it and close. That could make your pilot chute stay in your burble and provide no extraction force. As you deployed the reserve, the main bridle was released and both came out.

If it happened once, it can happen again unless you can find and correct the error.

top


DaVinciflies

Jun 7, 2011, 10:15 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying.

Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle.

Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2.

None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong.

I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 7, 2011, 10:21 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

T
Quote:
hen check your routing of the bridle, it may be getting trapped by your d-bag against the bottom of the reserve container when you s-fold it and close. That could make your pilot chute stay in your burble and provide no extraction force. As you deployed the reserve, the main bridle was released and both came out.

If it happened once, it can happen again unless you can find and correct the error.

top

A short bridle cord could also be a problem as well, but it can be overcome with a positive throw of the PC in the first place....

If the deployments have been OK for all his other jumps, and he hasn't changed his way of packing, closing the container, or his PC, or any other components, then it might just have been a lazy dump....


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 7, 2011, 10:25 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying.

Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle.

Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2.

None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong.

I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind?

Nope... paratroopers on a rope are usually pushed back to the wind as soon as they exit and then have their canopies deployed.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 7, 2011, 10:34 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind?

You are absolutely correct, but the point I am making is that the parachutes still deploy above their heads as they drop below the open canopy. They are effectively standing up with the parachute deploying almost, but not quite, straight up behind their heads.

I.E. the bag, lines, and parachute effectively deploy in a manner that is on much more of an angle than if they were belly to earth or even sitting up 45 degrees relative to the horizon.

Big Noise was saying such a deployment could cause a lot of problems....I'm saying thats not necessarily so.

But I expect him to jump all over the same point....Smile


DaVinciflies

Jun 7, 2011, 10:39 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, you're right. Sorry. Static lines are different as they do not rely on relative wind in the same way as pilot chutes do.


ETA - I may be getting out of my depth here! Wink


(This post was edited by DaVinciflies on Jun 7, 2011, 10:40 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 7, 2011, 10:49 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind?

Nope... paratroopers on a rope are usually pushed back to the wind as soon as they exit and then have their canopies deployed.

Actually, thinking about it, if the Paras go out of the tailgate of a Herc for example, they are back to the relative wind, the canopy is blown over their heads by the prop blast.

So thats even more extreme than the scenario of a head up in FF deployment.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 7, 2011, 11:18 AM
Post #35 of 56 (753 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind?

Nope... paratroopers on a rope are usually pushed back to the wind as soon as they exit and then have their canopies deployed.

Actually, thinking about it, if the Paras go out of the tailgate of a Herc for example, they are back to the relative wind, the canopy is blown over their heads by the prop blast.

So thats even more extreme than the scenario of a head up in FF deployment.

You're also not going as fast, and the canopy is only blown 'over your head by the propblast' (which... is really just the wind) once it is at full line stretch and inflating.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Jun 7, 2011, 11:22 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 7, 2011, 11:34 AM
Post #36 of 56 (748 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying.

Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle.

Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2.

None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong.

Quick, alert the relevant authorities. I'm sure they'll listen to you...

You're digging yourself a deeper hole, ol' man.

CReW jumpers, static liners, and hop n poppers aren't head high to clear a pilot chute as you suggest in your ongoing misinformation spew. They are head high because they deploy on or shortly after exit - when the wind is horizontal or nearly so! Of course they are head high. Head high IS belly into the relative wind when one's path through the sky - and therefore relative wind - is horizontal. Jumpers should be head high (or more accurately belly toward the front of the plane, be they head high or head low) to be belly into the wind upon exit.

This is the very kind of dangerous misinformation that we have talked about on these forums repeatedly. Short of personal assaults, no one can stop such sh*t from being posted here, so I guess we will just have to continue calling people out for posting it.

Really man, think about your post above. If you really are NZ D-84 with 30 years in the sport, you should know better by now. If you don't, you are just plain dangerous.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 7, 2011, 11:45 AM
Post #37 of 56 (743 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind?

You are absolutely correct, but the point I am making is that the parachutes still deploy above their heads as they drop below the open canopy. They are effectively standing up with the parachute deploying almost, but not quite, straight up behind their heads.

I.E. the bag, lines, and parachute effectively deploy in a manner that is on much more of an angle than if they were belly to earth or even sitting up 45 degrees relative to the horizon.

Big Noise was saying such a deployment could cause a lot of problems....I'm saying thats not necessarily so.

But I expect him to jump all over the same point....Smile

Actually the argument here is completely different with no logical comparisons to freefall skydiving. Military static line rigs are designed to deploy in a different configuration than a freefall sport rig. Nothing more, nothing less.

They are specifically design for the deployments you see. Sport rigs are designed to deploy best with the jumper's belly squarely into the wind (whether that's at terminal or 1 second off the planeWink).


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 7, 2011, 12:10 PM
Post #38 of 56 (737 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... paratroopers on a rope are usually pushed back to the wind as soon as they exit and then have their canopies deployed.

That's because paratroopers don't care where they are going. They only want to know where they've been,
Tongue


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 7, 2011, 5:46 PM
Post #39 of 56 (696 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Actually the argument here is completely different with no logical comparisons to freefall skydiving. Military static line rigs are designed to deploy in a different configuration than a freefall sport rig. Nothing more, nothing less.

A pilot chute and SL essentially perform the same function when a parachute - any parachute, military or otherwise is deployed..... Gravity works the same way for all...or so every skydiver I know, civilian or military, thinks so anyway.

Does it work differently where you are?

Rigs, both military and sport, SL or FF, don't differ that much in basic design and principle of operation. You can SL a sport rig and step off the ramp of a Herc. It will work.

The parachute will deploy cleanly, clear of the jumper, with either system...whether face to earth or upright. The body drops below the deploying parachute in either situation

At NO point did I say looking over your shoulder was the wrong thing to do...in fact I clearly stated that I train students to do exactly that.

Quote:
They are specifically design for the deployments you see. Sport rigs are designed to deploy best with the jumper's belly squarely into the wind (whether that's at terminal or 1 second off the planeWink).

Can you point out exactly where I disagreed with that, or said anything different?...

Is a head up body position on deployment dangerous in your view?.

Its only the third time I've asked you that. Very simple question...you seem to struggle to come up with a simple yes or no.

I assume you are not familiar with the Terry Gardiner Wonderhog deployment photos, (Hence no comment from you) which I suggested showed a perfectly clean and safe deployment in a head up position. ( he's probably close to, if not 45 degrees to the horizontal).

Its quite a famous series of 5 or so shots, which I'm sure many people are familiar with...you asked for a reference to such a photo. I gave it.

Again, I was never giving advice to STUDENTS about checking their canopy in a different way. I'm very well aware how people, especially low timers, can misinterpret information.

I was giving advice to a jumper with 170 jumps how pitching properly and adopting a slightly head up position while doing so, COULD help PREVENT hesitations in the first place. I would expect him to be quite capable of using, OR disregarding, that advice as he sees fit.

Nothing to do with checking the canopy. That would come later as per the USUAL method.

I'm not quite sure why you are so seemingly het up about my posts, but I suspect it stems from previous posts I've made about open canopy fatalities and injuries....

As far as slagging me off as being dangerous, stupid and a couple of other not very nice things, I don't think personal attacks further the discussion very well.

I'm a big boy and can handle that, so fill your boots, if you think that is effective....It just doesn't complement your points very well.

Would you be so keen to say those things face to face?....

Anyway it sounds like the OP might be on the right track, so thats gotta be good.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Jun 7, 2011, 5:52 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 7, 2011, 6:50 PM
Post #40 of 56 (684 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Rigs, both military and sport, SL or FF, don't differ that much in basic design and principle of operation.

You're very wrong. B-bye.


RIGGER160  (D 12345)

Jun 7, 2011, 8:04 PM
Post #41 of 56 (672 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say there is a very large difference in the way they work. The first and biggest thing that comes to mind is the difference in physics between a round and a square.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 8, 2011, 3:15 AM
Post #42 of 56 (646 views)
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Re: [RIGGER160] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would say there is a very large difference in the way they work. The first and biggest thing that comes to mind is the difference in physics between a round and a square.

And you'd be right....but with the canopy packed in a bag, the deployment is staged in the same way. The opening characteristics of the canopies might be different, but how the canopy is pulled out of the container and bag is basically the same. The body position of the jumper as this occurs is the doesn't change, whatever the canopy is doing......


P-dro

Jun 8, 2011, 4:22 AM
Post #43 of 56 (636 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OP... Thanks for your post. If nothing else, it made us think about the situation again and mentally practice our EP's. Cool
You mean besides preventing departing main/reserve entanglement or damages to the reserve canopy or lines by the hardware on departing riser ?


Skyper

Jun 8, 2011, 5:24 AM
Post #44 of 56 (620 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I would say there is a very large difference in the way they work. The first and biggest thing that comes to mind is the difference in physics between a round and a square.
how the canopy is pulled out of the container and bag is basically the same.

Obelix with all due respect for your experience, but there are large differences in deployment sequence of round chute and wing chute. To start with - round chute does not have a deployment bag at all, at least not those Ive been jumping with.

I do agree with you that sliding backward position during deployment might be good. At least to lessen the pressure on your back during the opening shock.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 8, 2011, 5:34 AM
Post #45 of 56 (610 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Obelix with all due respect for your experience, but there are large differences in deployment sequence of round chute and wing chute. To start with - round chute does not have a deployment bag at all, at least not those Ive been jumping with.

Not ALL systems have a deployment bag, but there are plenty of rounds (static line and freefall) with bags, and many more with diapers.


Glitch  (D 10834)

Jun 8, 2011, 11:22 AM
Post #46 of 56 (578 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I do agree with you that sliding backward position during deployment might be good. At least to lessen the pressure on your back during the opening shock.

And you'd be wrong, IMHO. Flat, belly to earth at deployment distributes the shock better....


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jun 8, 2011, 11:24 AM
Post #47 of 56 (577 views)
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Re: [Glitch] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I do agree with you that sliding backward position during deployment might be good. At least to lessen the pressure on your back during the opening shock.

And you'd be wrong, IMHO. Flat, belly to earth at deployment distributes the shock better....

A backsliding opening once landed me in the hospital, so I tend to agree there.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 9, 2011, 1:25 AM
Post #48 of 56 (522 views)
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Re: [everyone] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess that some of you guys are not reading and understanding so I'll repeat what Chuck said:
In reply to:
Sport rigs are designed to deploy best with the jumper's belly squarely into the wind (whether that's at terminal or 1 second off the planeWink).

Backsliding at opening time is NOT a good idea. Period.
Is it another one of those, "I heard it somewhere it so it must be true" scenarios?

It was mentioned that the backslide would help prevent PC hesitation.
What I will ask you is this:

Why would you want to disrupt your best canopy opening opportunity to compensate for a weak throw? Why not do a proper throw like you're supposed to do in the first place?
Your telling people to fergiddaboutit on the throw and telling them to waste the good opening opportunity by backsliding on opening.
That, my friends, is just CrazyCrazyCrazy

If any of you are teaching your students to backslide on opening, please cease and desist.


Skyper

Jun 9, 2011, 2:25 AM
Post #49 of 56 (517 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Obelix with all due respect for your experience, but there are large differences in deployment sequence of round chute and wing chute. To start with - round chute does not have a deployment bag at all, at least not those Ive been jumping with.

Not ALL systems have a deployment bag, but there are plenty of rounds (static line and freefall) with bags, and many more with diapers.

I thought so. Laugh

Back sliding was advised to me by an "experienced skydiver" to lessen the preassure on my back during the opening. So I did it several times and it works, but obviously this position introduces some other problems which I was not aware of...


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 9, 2011, 5:41 AM
Post #50 of 56 (499 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not advocating a huge backslide and skating all over the sky, that would be silly. It would be pointless to track in one direction, and then backslide back in the direction you just came from.

All I'm suggesting is pitching from a stable position, THEN bringing your arms forward to tilt your body into a head up position AS THE CANOPY IS DEPLOYING.

This will alter the windflow across your back after pitching, and MAY help to prevent hesitations in the first place.

I'm talking about a process that lasts no more than one or two seconds at most, and puts your body into the position you are going to be pulled up into within short order anyway.

Plus it keeps your shoulders level, thus keeping even tension on your lines and risers during the deployment, AND puts you into a good head up body position IF you then have to bring your hands in for EP procedures, which often results in a head down body position if you have nothing out....

Its not something I've suddenly dreamed up out of nowhere....its a procedure I've always used, as have many others, with NO problems at all.

Somehow my suggestion has been misinterpreted as:

A) Not checking the deployment.
B) Changing the proven method of checking.
C) Inducing a huge backslide.
D) Adopting a sitfly position.
E) Increasing the chances of a horseshoe malfunction.
F) Aimed at students.
G) Dangerous.

None of which I advocated at all.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 9, 2011, 7:39 AM
Post #51 of 56 (327 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not advocating a huge backslide and skating all over the sky, that would be silly. It would be pointless to track in one direction, and then backslide back in the direction you just came from.

All I'm suggesting is pitching from a stable position, THEN bringing your arms forward to tilt your body into a head up position AS THE CANOPY IS DEPLOYING.

This will alter the windflow across your back after pitching, and MAY help to prevent hesitations in the first place.

I see what you're saying, but remember, you're also tilting the rig up, and giving your lines a better chance of catching under your reserve container or being drug across your flaps and possibly catching one.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 9, 2011, 8:03 AM
Post #52 of 56 (323 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...THEN bringing your arms forward to tilt your body into a head up position AS THE CANOPY IS DEPLOYING.

If your canopy is already deploying, then your PC is already - clearly - - launched! How then, does this have anything to do with, or apply at all, as a technique (supposedly) to clear/prevent PC launch hesitation/being "in the burble"? ...???

You are now severely "reaching" / contradicting yourself, and continue to dig yourself in even deeper & deeper. Crazy

Dude - drop it. And move on. You are doing yourself no favors by continuing (in abject desperation in my observation) to try & find a way now, to somehow "justify" or "qualify" your original response. It was incorrect. We all make mistakes. Your post/reply to this particular subject was one is all. I understand what you may be trying to portray, as someone with a really solid track first STOPPING THEIR TRACK prior to deployment - but interpolating that into actually suggesting it as a viable practice/method versus practicing an otherwise stable-oriented deployment sequence, for purposes of using this as a method for (specifically) either off-setting for a weak throw, or - clearing a PC hesitation burble technique, as others are trying to also show you why - is just plain simply wrong.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jun 9, 2011, 8:06 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 10, 2011, 5:00 AM
Post #53 of 56 (277 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Somehow my suggestion has been misinterpreted....

Maybe this is one reason:
In reply to:
"I was giving advice to a jumper with 170 jumps how pitching properly and adopting a slightly head up position while doing so, COULD help PREVENT hesitations in the first place."

...which is different than:
In reply to:
"All I'm suggesting is pitching from a stable position, THEN bringing your arms forward to tilt your body into a head up position AS THE CANOPY IS DEPLOYING."

...and:
In reply to:
"This will alter the windflow across your back after pitching, and MAY help to prevent hesitations in the first place."

Why would I need to get windflow across my back if my canopy is already deploying?


I do understand what you are trying to say but the reasoning is confusing. We can only go by what you wrote.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 10, 2011, 7:07 AM
Post #54 of 56 (260 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

"canapies" are tasty little fruits, but they make my throat itch


Skyper

Jun 10, 2011, 10:43 AM
Post #55 of 56 (237 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"canapies" are tasty little fruits, but they make my throat itch

maybe you should try two of them while in the downplane Cool


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 11, 2011, 7:05 PM
Post #56 of 56 (203 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Two canapies out in a downplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If your canopy is already deploying, then your PC is already - clearly - - launched! How then, does this have anything to do with, or apply at all, as a technique (supposedly) to clear/prevent PC launch hesitation/being "in the burble"? ...???

Not the issue. The issue being discussed is what could happen if a jumper - as the advocate of the technique advises - sits up at a 45 degree angle to clear (or insure clearance) of the p/c at the time of pitching - which is NOT the same moment as when the bag launches. More specifically...

The advocate of the technique advises to sit up at the time of the pitch. This means that when the bag does launch, the jumper is already in a 45 degree head-high attitude, or some variation thereof. That can and has caused lines and risers to snag on the bottom of the reserve container resulting in a variety of nasty mals.

If you need some evidence, call pretty much any manufacturer and they can probably provide you with photos of rigs returned to the factory for repair after being damaged by "other than flat and stable" deployments.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, but some ways can kill you. Sitting up before your bag and risers have cleared the container - which is exactly what the advocate suggests - is simply asking for trouble.

If anyone doubts me, call a rig manufacturer and ask them what they think about the idea. Something tells me the advocate won't like the answer they give you.Wink



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