Jun 2, 2011, 6:38 PM
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I have recently started my AFF. I know I need to make approx 12 coached jumps after my 7 AFF. My question is this, if the DZ charges 95 including rental my ride and the coaches jump does the coach recieve anything other than the free jump. This sure seems like a great thing for someone who loves to jump and helping others enjoy the sport more and by all means I appreciate the assistance. I was just wondering if tipping is expected or required. Thanks for the info
First off - its not a free jump. Done correctly, coaching is work. And when youre the only coach on the DZ on a saturday afternoon, you can end up getting worked into the ground!
To answer the question - no, a tip is not required or expected. Buy jump tickets (for you - not the coach) and beer (for you AND all your new best friends) instead.
For me, the biggest payoff is seeing someone finally accomplish something that had been a challenge. If learning happens and I can be a part of that, then Ive had a good day at the DZ.
By no means did I intend to imply that coaching is not work. I do a fair amount of training and precepting in my career and I understand the amount of effort that goes into each and every class or sesion. Thanks for the input and the beer will flow.
For me, the biggest payoff is seeing someone finally accomplish something that had been a challenge. If learning happens and I can be a part of that, then Ive had a good day at the DZ.
I wasnt trying to flame you out, bro. There are plenty of other folks that will read this. Some of them are potential coaches or those considering getting a rating. There are also plenty that truly believe that being a coach (or TM/AFFI/whatever) is all about getting free jumps and some dont ever consider the responsibility and commitment involved. I truly hate working around these type of people. So I was kind of putting it out there as food for thought for anyone thinking about doing it.
During a jump, having a student look over at you and give the biggest shit eating grin because they just nailed it is one reason why I coach. Not sure who was wearing the bigger smile, me or my student.
We get paid for coach jumps at my DZ but I don't bother putting in for them, I just like helping people out. I did a "coach" jump the other day which was actually just a two way with a guy who didn't have his A yet. We had a dive plan and did pretty well at it and the student had fun, I don't need money for that. I did get my slot paid for which was great but it was a good time irrespective.
edit: no tip expected or required!
(This post was edited by danielcroft on Jun 2, 2011, 9:01 PM)
I was just wondering if tipping is expected or required.
Required? Oh hell no. Expected? If you get that vibe, go someplace else. To a much larger degree, instructors take massively more responsibility jumping with students and have usually invested a hell of a lot more time, effort, and money in getting where they are.
I think they can more reasonably "expect" tips although many of the people who work to get that rating don't think as much about tips.
Coaching works a little differently here to the US, but I think people do it for the same reasons.
It's genuinely work, and there is always more demand than supply - at some DZs, if you don't say no, then you will coach all weekend, every weekend. The free jumps don't remotely cover the time you spend briefing, debriefing, psychoanalysing, and (importantly) not doing other jumps.
But it's worth it. Further compensation than this is not required:
Coaching works a little differently here to the US, but I think people do it for the same reasons.
It's genuinely work, and there is always more demand than supply - at some DZs, if you don't say no, then you will coach all weekend, every weekend. The free jumps don't remotely cover the time you spend briefing, debriefing, psychoanalysing, and (importantly) not doing other jumps.
But it's worth it. Further compensation than this is not required:
I'm assuming that you're talking about Mile Hi. If that's the case, then yes, the coach gets paid for the jump, and the DZ is not making any profit on said jump.
Tipping is not expected, however, a case of beer usually goes over pretty well.
There are also plenty that truly believe that being a coach is all about getting free jumps
This is what I HATE about the "coach" rating.
No talent, 100 jumps, got the rating...
Screw the newbies!!!!! Free jumps!!!!
As someone looking into the coach rating, I would hope that you are wrong. Granted someone with 100 jumps is not as skilled a jumper as someone with a C or D license. The course outline shows a fair amount of emphasis on the teaching aspect which is something that jumps (and skydiving talent) don't necessarily build on.
I see the coach rating as a step towards jumping with and helping new jumpers. A coach is really the first person who is not an instructor that you should be jumping with. For the student that is a step forward and it obviously carries significant responsibility for the coach.
I would hope that a newly qualified coach is providing their services free of charge as they are getting as much from the jump as the student. However having the slot paid for as a coach should be adequate return for the coach who is a fun jumper (not their day job).
I also think we either have beer rules or tipping. I like the beer rules so would prefer to see them stay (but then I haven't made a career out of jumping).
I know that for my 7 AFF coached jumps (8-14), the cost was $100 and covered my slot ($22), the coach's slot ($22), the gear rental ($30), and then $10 for the coach. The rest ($15-20) went to the DZ.
I'm only at 20 jumps but I'm looking forward to getting my coach's rating. It's the same way when I was a rowing coach, seeing the look on a kids face when everything clicks and they feel great about themselves.
Mucho thanks to Khawk & Marion for my coached jumps.
and I would disagree the DZ aka Frank doesn't make any money on the jump. First 28+28 for the two slots. Is the DZ not making any money for the two slots paid for? at 28 bucks a jump I think they are doing well. Then 25 for the gear rental per jump. So if those rigs are 6000 a piece then after about 300 jumps they have to be paid off and making money for the DZ after packers and cost of repacks ect. And many of those rigs have been there for a long time which = cash making for the DZ on rental rigs. And the coach does make cash/jump and always like beer or tips but tips are not necessary.
ATTENTION AFF STUDENTS If you feel the need to tip, put some beer in me instead. Good stuff though - if you are tempted to get Icehouse, Bud Light, Coors, etc - give the $$$ to a more experienced jumper and they will demonstrate proper execution of a beer transaction.
... I earned mine... probably more so then some T/I's that I have heard about.
Oh, hell. Now you got me started on that whole rating requirement thing.
It severely grinds my shorts that you can get get a Coach rating one day and an AFF or TI rating the next. Stupid USPA. It's unbelievable how often that happens.
... I earned mine... probably more so then some T/I's that I have heard about.
Oh, hell. Now you got me started on that whole rating requirement thing.
It severely grinds my shorts that you can get get a Coach rating one day and an AFF or TI rating the next. Stupid USPA. It's unbelievable how often that happens.
They listened, that can only happen if the Candidate has 500 jumps or more now. The rest have to wait 12 months after the Coach Course for an I Course.
I notice that YOU don't have a Coach rating yet? Surely you are interested in helping out the Pre-A youngsters, eh?
That is why I coach. Tuesday I walked up to a 13 jump student and asked if he wanted company. His first question, "Will it cost me?" Nope. I am on the load, he needed to practice his dive to dock so lets go. No tip, no beer, just a little free advice. "Get your legs off you rear and don't backslide."
They listened, that can only happen if the Candidate has 500 jumps or more now. The rest have to wait 12 months after the Coach Course for an I Course.
Nope. They only partially listened. 500 OR 12 months. Didn't change a damned thing for >500 people.
500 jumps and an AFF rating with still no experience teaching anything. BS.
That is why I coach. Tuesday I walked up to a 13 jump student and asked if he wanted company. His first question, "Will it cost me?" Nope. I am on the load, he needed to practice his dive to dock so lets go. No tip, no beer, just a little free advice. "Get your legs off you rear and don't backslide."
And hopefully, you actually worked with him... Explaining, demonstration from you vertically, then him, horizontally, then him, etc. Good oral and written debrief with corrective demonstration and practice.
Then that means the Prof. Card is full of "forged" signatures.
The steps to prevent that are there Pops. WE I's have the ability to fix it with out USPA needing to do more, WE I's just mentor the Candidate, a little "Pay It Forward".
I harp on this all the time at the two DZ's I jump at, and it seems to be the norm at those two DZ's, to do that.
WE I's can change the Instructor Culture through EXAMPLES.
This is what I HATE about the "coach" rating. No talent, 100 jumps, got the rating... Screw the newbies!!!!! Free jumps!!!!
I notice that YOU don't have a Coach rating yet? Surely you are interested in helping out the Pre-A youngsters, eh?
I don't have it & have no desire to get it.
If a kid with 18 jumps asks me if I'll jump with him, then you bet I'll jump out there, let him or her, work on what ever they want to. FREE OF CHARGE!
I've just seen to many "coaches" that are in it for the $$$$$$$$.
If a kid with 18 jumps asks me if I'll jump with him, then you bet I'll jump out there, let him or her, work on what ever they want to. FREE OF CHARGE!
I've just seen to many "coaches" that are in it for the $$$$$$$$.
The coach rating is as much about how to teach as it is how to fly with low time jumpers, if not more. Pretending that it's not because you've seen some people doing what you think is a bad job or approaching it in a way that you don't like shows just as much disrespect to the rating and to those who do have a coach ratings and do care about teaching people. I applaud you for wanting to help newer jumpers but go get a coach rating if you want to jump with pre-A license holders, you *will* learn something.
If a kid with 18 jumps asks me if I'll jump with him, then you bet I'll jump out there, let him or her, work on what ever they want to. FREE OF CHARGE!
I've just seen to many "coaches" that are in it for the $$$$$$$$.
The coach rating is as much about how to teach as it is how to fly with low time jumpers, if not more. Pretending that it's not because you've seen some people doing what you think is a bad job or approaching it in a way that you don't like shows just as much disrespect to the rating and to those who do have a coach ratings and do care about teaching people. I applaud you for wanting to help newer jumpers but go get a coach rating if you want to jump with pre-A license holders, you *will* learn something.
Fair enough, you have given me a new train of thought. Thanks.
How or why does that matter? Just because something was done before doesnt mean that its okay now. USPA changed the system for a reason. We are certainly better off requiring that someone be trained to jump with students. At my DZ coached dont get paid. I didnt get it at first but now it makes sense to me. By removing the money from the equation the only thing left is skydiving and the teaching. To become an instructor, which the coach rating is the first step in the process, you have to start somewhere. I dont see any better alternatives out there.
What the hell did we do before USPA created the Coach rating?
There are plenty of people out in the skydiving community who don't need a coach rating to be able to help new jumpers. There are also plenty of people out there who would be doing these new jumpers a disservice. It amuses me that on one hand we complain about new jumpers not getting the training they need and on the other we disparage the USPA's attempt to add some structure and professionalism to the process.
If your DZO signs you off to jump with students, it's fine. If you're a relatively new jumper <1000 jumps & 5 years in the sport then I personally think that getting a coach rating can only help you to help new jumpers.
If a kid with 18 jumps asks me if I'll jump with him, then you bet I'll jump out there, let him or her, work on what ever they want to. FREE OF CHARGE!
Good on you! There's only 1 minor problem. As per USPA, YOU, with only a B license are not allowed to jump with students. So, in essence, you are setting a bad example for them in ultimately saying, "Rules are made to be broken."
On top of that... That 18-jumper gets hurt, YOU are going to be on the front line explaining and trying to justify all that.
In reply to:
I've just seen to many "coaches" that are in it for the $$$$$$$$.
You and me both, brother...and it's sad.
Get your rating, Don. I think you would be a good coach. What's the hold-up?
The coach rating is as much about how to teach as it is how to fly with low time jumpers, if not more.
Spot on.
In reply to:
Pretending that it's not because you've seen some people doing what you think is a bad job or approaching it in a way that you don't like shows just as much disrespect to the rating
Again, spot on. Yep. I know there are those out there who disparage the Coach rating simply because of some of the stuff they see out there. This is unfortunate in that opinions are formed based on a small sample of observations.
Then there are those out there who will develop their own opinions based on nothing more than what their personal gurus expound. This, too, is unfortunate because potentially good Coaches are passing up the rating thinking that their gurus are correct.
Anybody got a whine about the Coach rating and you don't have one? Kinda blows your credibility, IMO. I'd suggest get off your dead ass, get the rating, and do your part in improving the product. You've got the opportunity...take it.
If a kid with 18 jumps asks me if I'll jump with him, then you bet I'll jump out there, let him or her, work on what ever they want to. FREE OF CHARGE!
I've just seen to many "coaches" that are in it for the $$$$$$$$.
The coach rating is as much about how to teach as it is how to fly with low time jumpers, if not more. Pretending that it's not because you've seen some people doing what you think is a bad job or approaching it in a way that you don't like shows just as much disrespect to the rating and to those who do have a coach ratings and do care about teaching people. I applaud you for wanting to help newer jumpers but go get a coach rating if you want to jump with pre-A license holders, you *will* learn something.
Fair enough, you have given me a new train of thought. Thanks.
Hey if you wanna help but don't want a rating, then be one of the guys who grab the fresh A license people once in awhile and starts a beginner RW group, it gives a fresh fish a place to start their career from, we lose alot of up jumpers because they feel left out, or people whose skills never progress much because they have no experienced people to pratice with. I know a few guys who do this and probably make more in sandwhiches and beer then a coach makes anyway. If your one of these guys I applaud you!!!!! I have done a few but we have really been busy the last 2 years and my time is limited, but I still have 1 or 2 I try and get with, and seeing them smile makes it all worth it. The USPA states we are self policing, we should also try and be self encouraging after the A stamp is applied.
a "d" can jump with a off student status jumper with the dzo or the sta's approval right?
Anyone can jump with anybody off student status.
I assume you really mean students released for self-supervision. In that case, yes, you are correct except that no approval is actually required according to USPA's SIM. Note that an S&TA can waiver that.
SIM: 6. Students training for group freefall (S) a. Student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by either A USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor or; b. USPA D license holders provided there is a minimum ratio of one D license holder to one student with a maximum of a 4-way.
(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jul 27, 2011, 5:31 PM)
I thought that was the case but I don't see it in the SIM.
I had the same trouble, I always check with the sta and talk to the instructors see what the student needs to work on.
Asking the -I's are always going to be your best COA.
If I have no direct answer from them, I will generally have them do a solo exit (unlinked two way) so I can observe their body position. Have them do a practice pull, then a couple of turns with alti checks inbetween. I'll move to forward movement, and if they're rocking it out, I'll throw in some vertical movement (not much distance!!)... If they're recently cleared for solo, I will have them pull in place for a jump or two, I've seen students do a full 360 (and keep going) from reach to throw and didn't know why they got the line twists.
You can look up the CAT G & H in the SIM (ya know, the book that said you can jump with students cleared for solo as a D- holder and in ratios of no more than 1:1 up to a 4 way).
Who ever said they couldn't find in the SIM that they were allowed to jump with students as D- holders really should look again. As Andy pointed out, it's black and white, clear as day.
(This post was edited by theonlyski on Jul 29, 2011, 7:48 AM)
If a kid with 18 jumps asks me if I'll jump with him, then you bet I'll jump out there
So you're jumping with pre-license holders without any kind of rating?
Oh, my God!!! Say it isn't so!
What the hell did we do before USPA created the Coach rating?
I was there... I was taught.... stick out your arm to make a turn... adjust your fall rate by extending or pulling in your arms and legs... losing altitude faster makes for a better track... training after the first jump course lasted for less than 5 minutes or was done on the ride to altitude... postdives should consist of either "be more aggressive" or "be less aggressive"...
... I earned mine... probably more so then some T/I's that I have heard about.
Oh, hell. Now you got me started on that whole rating requirement thing.
It severely grinds my shorts that you can get get a Coach rating one day and an AFF or TI rating the next. Stupid USPA. It's unbelievable how often that happens.
And its about to happen at your DZ! :) Wonder how said person will Coach/AFF Instruct the landings. Whats the saying, "those who can't do, teach".......
Anybody got a whine about the Coach rating and you don't have one? Kinda blows your credibility, IMO. I'd suggest get off your dead ass, get the rating, and do your part in improving the product.
I don't have a coach rating.... Can I still bitch about it?
Anybody got a whine about the Coach rating and you don't have one? Kinda blows your credibility, IMO. I'd suggest get off your dead ass, get the rating, and do your part in improving the product.
I don't have a coach rating.... Can I still bitch about it?
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
You, my friend, have carte blanche to bitch about any thing, any time.
(This post was edited by popsjumper on Aug 2, 2011, 7:37 PM)
As you know, Andy, I'm taking the coach course this weekend and I am very excited about it. I waited until after I had 200 jumps to get it. Would I have liked to have gotten it sooner? Yes. Did I feel my skills were good enough to get it sooner? No. I'm still very nervous about the course. But I'm also excited at the thought of finally being able to help and jump with the new jumpers fresh off AFF. So many times I've wanted to jump with them but haven't been able to. Hopefully after this weekend I will be able to pass some of my knowledge and love for this sport on to them. I never liked the idea of coaches getting paid. Cover the slot? Yeah, that sounds fair. I'm looking forward to the first time I get paid simply by seeing a huge grin on a students face in the air. That will be payment enough for me.
P.S. - Ok Andy, you can stop thinking of ways to screw with me in the course this weekend. I'm sure you have more than enough evil plans by now.
As you know, Andy, I'm taking the coach course this weekend and I am very excited about it. I waited until after I had 200 jumps to get it. Would I have liked to have gotten it sooner? Yes. Did I feel my skills were good enough to get it sooner? No. I'm still very nervous about the course. But I'm also excited at the thought of finally being able to help and jump with the new jumpers fresh off AFF. So many times I've wanted to jump with them but haven't been able to. Hopefully after this weekend I will be able to pass some of my knowledge and love for this sport on to them. I never liked the idea of coaches getting paid. Cover the slot? Yeah, that sounds fair. I'm looking forward to the first time I get paid simply by seeing a huge grin on a students face in the air. That will be payment enough for me.
P.S. - Ok Andy, you can stop thinking of ways to screw with me in the course this weekend. I'm sure you have more than enough evil plans by now.
Oh, Andy is your evaluator?
Forget all those tricks I told you they would play, I didn't know HE would be your evaluator!
As you know, Andy, I'm taking the coach course this weekend and I am very excited about it. I waited until after I had 200 jumps to get it. Would I have liked to have gotten it sooner? Yes. Did I feel my skills were good enough to get it sooner? No. I'm still very nervous about the course. But I'm also excited at the thought of finally being able to help and jump with the new jumpers fresh off AFF. So many times I've wanted to jump with them but haven't been able to. Hopefully after this weekend I will be able to pass some of my knowledge and love for this sport on to them. I never liked the idea of coaches getting paid. Cover the slot? Yeah, that sounds fair. I'm looking forward to the first time I get paid simply by seeing a huge grin on a students face in the air. That will be payment enough for me.
P.S. - Ok Andy, you can stop thinking of ways to screw with me in the course this weekend. I'm sure you have more than enough evil plans by now.
Oh, Andy is your evaluator?
Forget all those tricks I told you they would play, I didn't know HE would be your evaluator!
He's one of them. I have a feeling I know a couple of the things he might try to pull on me. Hopefully I catch them or else I will NEVER hear the end of it from him.
He's one of them. I have a feeling I know a couple of the things he might try to pull on me. Hopefully I catch them or else I will NEVER hear the end of it from him.
He's one of them. I have a feeling I know a couple of the things he might try to pull on me. Hopefully I catch them or else I will NEVER hear the end of it from him.
He's one of them. I have a feeling I know a couple of the things he might try to pull on me. Hopefully I catch them or else I will NEVER hear the end of it from him.
Wish I could be an eval for you.
I'm very greatful you're not.
Sissy
Andy - Throw her a few screwballs for me.
(This post was edited by theonlyski on Aug 3, 2011, 7:57 AM)
As you know, Andy, I'm taking the coach course this weekend and I am very excited about it. I waited until after I had 200 jumps to get it. Would I have liked to have gotten it sooner? Yes. Did I feel my skills were good enough to get it sooner? No. I'm still very nervous about the course. But I'm also excited at the thought of finally being able to help and jump with the new jumpers fresh off AFF. So many times I've wanted to jump with them but haven't been able to. Hopefully after this weekend I will be able to pass some of my knowledge and love for this sport on to them. I never liked the idea of coaches getting paid. Cover the slot? Yeah, that sounds fair. I'm looking forward to the first time I get paid simply by seeing a huge grin on a students face in the air. That will be payment enough for me.
All you Coaches and potential Coaches out there.
Please re-read Cindy's post. THAT is what a coach is all about.
In reply to:
P.S. - Ok Andy, you can stop thinking of ways to screw with me in the course this weekend. I'm sure you have more than enough evil plans by now.
Oh, yes...I have been dreaming, plotting and planning.
(This post was edited by popsjumper on Aug 3, 2011, 8:48 PM)
As you know, Andy, I'm taking the coach course this weekend and I am very excited about it. I waited until after I had 200 jumps to get it. Would I have liked to have gotten it sooner? Yes. Did I feel my skills were good enough to get it sooner? No. I'm still very nervous about the course.
In reply to:
I still can't believe how nervous candidates get about this. You've got 200 RW jumps. You'll do fine. The candidates that have flying problems usually have just over 100 jumps and over half are free-fly. The course is designed to teach you how to teach, not how to fly. Just RELAX.... And if you feel yourself starting to brainlock, do what we teach our students. Take a deep breath in, exhale, then go on.
But I'm also excited at the thought of finally being able to help and jump with the new jumpers fresh off AFF. So many times I've wanted to jump with them but haven't been able to. Hopefully after this weekend I will be able to pass some of my knowledge and love for this sport on to them. I never liked the idea of coaches getting paid. Cover the slot? Yeah, that sounds fair. I'm looking forward to the first time I get paid simply by seeing a huge grin on a students face in the air. That will be payment enough for me.
I agree, up to a point. Just remember this when you're tired, got another student waiting, and have passed on a couple of "fun-jumps" already that day. Doing it right (coaching) involves a lot of time spent with students both before and after the jump, and a fair bit of time when you're not teaching, getting together a plan for teaching each level. There is a difference between having a coach rating and being a good coach. A little time spent putting together a lesson plan or outline for what and how you're going to teach each lesson is invaluable. Getting a smile is great, but getting compensated for all the time spent is not a bad thing either.
P.S. - Ok Andy, you can stop thinking of ways to screw with me in the course this weekend. I'm sure you have more than enough evil plans by now.
Just remember, unless you endanger the "student" (miss something serious on gear check, unbelievable bad spot, etc) or blow the hard deck, you won't fail any of this. Relax and enjoy it.
(This post was edited by ufk22 on Aug 4, 2011, 9:31 AM)
Well, I successfully completed the coach course this weekend. Ended up having a blast. I'll admit I called PopsJumper a few names during my eval jump with him. But he had to have expected it when he gave me a no count exit and then just smiled and waved back at me as I tried to wave him off and tell him to pull.
I got lucky in that just 2 hours after completing everythign and getting my proficiency card signed off I got to do my first official coach jump (yes, I know ). I think I was much more nervouse than my student even though he knew this was my first official coach jump. But I ended up really enjoying it and he did a great job. I can't wait to do more.
Well, I successfully completed the coach course this weekend. Ended up having a blast. I'll admit I called PopsJumper a few names during my eval jump with him. But he had to have expected it when he gave me a no count exit and then just smiled and waved back at me as I tried to wave him off and tell him to pull.
I got lucky in that just 2 hours after completing everythign and getting my proficiency card signed off I got to do my first official coach jump (yes, I know ). I think I was much more nervouse than my student even though he knew this was my first official coach jump. But I ended up really enjoying it and he did a great job. I can't wait to do more.
Congrats... even though Andy took it easy on you.
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Aug 8, 2011, 8:57 AM
Post #68 of 71
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I am the OP of this thread. I was initially asking a simple question but have enjoyed watching it turn into a very informative discussion. Since the original post I have passed AFF and am nearing the end of my coaching jumps. It has been interesting to say the least. I have seen a wide range of attitiudes. These extend from "hey this is my job" to those coaches and instructors that obviously enjoy the act and art of teaching someone a new skill. I would like to add that those with the first attitude are by far in the minority. The only problem I see with this new found passion is my banker may never speak to me again.. Oh well never liked him much any way. To answerthe obvious questions yes I have bought beer and even some dinners..
. But done regardless. 
