Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Night jump requirements for D?

 

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popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 23, 2011, 2:23 PM
Post #51 of 56 (190 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Just because you call it stupid does not mean that it is. The rule has no brain, so it can have no intelligence.
Please do not do the misdirection tricks. Nobody said a "rule" has a brain.


In reply to:
...If you do not desire a night jump, stick with your C-license, there is nothing in life that says you have to earn a D.
Correction:
-Tandem
-Pro

In reply to:
...We don't keep it "just because," but because we think it is still a valuable requirement for our membership.
...again, for a D-license only makes no sense


In reply to:
I thought that is what an intelligent discussion is all about: The exchange of ideas so people could make judgements based upon the merits of the arguments.
In reply to:
Correct. I don't see much about making intelligent judgments going on as related to this topic. All we've ever seen from one side of the issue is:
-That's the way it is.
-That's the way we've always done it.
-I don't know.
-Misdirection.
-Blindly plowing ahead, steady as she goes.


In reply to:
if this one issue has totally ruined your mood,
It's the same ol', same ol' responses from USPA that have "ruined my mood".

It's the ask a question and get different responses form different reps telling us you guys have no legitimate policy that has ruined my mood.
It's that you guys continue to fight against even developing legitimate policy by using the same, old, lame excuses.

You guys have been shown several good reasons for change regarding his topic.....multiple times by multiple people. It's been pointed out to you that USPA reasons, as varied and as silly as they are, for keeping it unchanged are illogical and unneeded.



In reply to:
7. Isn't "they are fun" enough?
What? NO! How many times.....


ahhh nevermind


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 23, 2011, 2:32 PM
Post #52 of 56 (189 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Using the logic of the underlined sentence, I would need to swoop to
>know I don't want to.

Well, to put it another way, learning to do front riser 90's under instruction is a VERY good idea if you are considering swooping later. Fortunately, it is rare to find yourself swooping when you don't want to, so you have a lot more control over the situation.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 23, 2011, 3:11 PM
Post #53 of 56 (176 views)
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Re: [Ron] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So the "C" is a 'sport license' in skydiving. Both have limitations. If you do not want the limitations, you do the required things to get the other rating.

OK, since you guys want to play the misdirection game...

You want to drive a car? You must learn how to drive an 18-wheeler first even though you will never be driving one at any time in the future.

If that were true, how would you feel about it?

That's just as off-the-wall and off-topic as anything else.
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If one wants a Pro rating, one has to do night jumps even though one will never be doing a night jump again.

That makes no sense either and it's on-topic.
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If one wants a Tandem rating, one must do night jumps even though one will never do one. That makes no sense.
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The idea that one might "accidently" do one is just preposterous, except in the case of emergency bail-out which is, after all, intentional.
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If one wants to step out of a plane in the dark, one should have night jump training. A, B, and C licenses can do that without the training. That makes no sense at all any way you cut it.
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A-license can do water jumps...no training other than FJC required. The water training requirement only comes into play at B-license. That makes no sense.


All this has been said, over and over again and you guys brush off the logic of it all.
We've always done it that way.

So....our reps seem to be saying they've discussed this many times. It appears to me that the "discussion" revolves solely around, "We've always done it that way" and a bunch of heads nodding in agreement so the logic of it all gets bypassed and it's business as usual. Just my opinion developed from the responses received from multiple reps.

OK...I'm done beating my head against the wall.
Back to happy camper.
Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 23, 2011, 3:26 PM
Post #54 of 56 (171 views)
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Re: [billvon] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
learning to do front riser 90's under instruction is a VERY good idea if you are considering swooping later. Fortunately, it is rare to find yourself swooping when you don't want to, so you have a lot more control over the situation.

I swooped the pond once. I missed the water by mere...





wait for it...














100s of feet.
LaughLaugh


Ron

Mar 23, 2011, 3:32 PM
Post #55 of 56 (168 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OK, since you guys want to play the misdirection game...

It is not misdirection.

You want to fly only during the day with one pax? Get a sport license. You want to fly at night or with 3 or more people? Get the full ticket.

Quote:
If one wants a Pro rating, one has to do night jumps even though one will never be doing a night jump again.


Half of my PRO jumps were at night, and a D is needed for the PRO.

Quote:
If one wants a Tandem rating, one must do night jumps even though one will never do one. That makes no sense.

Take that up with the Manufacturer. They require the "D". And a 'sport pilot' is not allowed to fly at night due to the danger.... A Tandem Instructor is not a 'sport jumper'

Quote:
The idea that one might "accidently" do one is just preposterous, except in the case of emergency bail-out which is, after all, intentional.

Never claimed that... although I will mention I have done a sunset jump that DID turn into a night jump. I gave a night jump briefing on the load, reorganized the groups, and told anyone that didn't want to jump they should ride the plane down and the will not get charged for the flight.

I landed near a light and it was pitch dark.

Quote:
If one wants to step out of a plane in the dark, one should have night jump training. A, B, and C licenses can do that without the training.

Show me one DZ that will let you do it without the training. AND you must have a "B" or higher equivalent:

From the SIM:

3. Every skydiver, regardless of experience, should participate in night-jump training to learn or review:

a. techniques of avoiding disorientation

b. use of identification light, lighted instruments, and flashlight

c. target lighting

d. ground-to-air communications

e. reserve activation

1. Skydivers participating in night jumping should meet all the requirements for a USPA B or higher license.

2. Participants should complete a comprehensive briefing and drill immediately prior to the intended night jump.


Quote:
A-license can do water jumps...no training other than FJC required. The water training requirement only comes into play at B-license. That makes no sense.

Water training is to prevent a safety hazard that could happen on jump #1

And according to the SIM:
3. The purpose of wet training (required for the USPA B license) is to expose the individual to a worst-case scenario in a controlled situation.

1. Any person intending to make an intentional water landing should:

a. undergo preparatory training within 60 days
of the water jump


So training is required.

Quote:
All this has been said, over and over again and you guys brush off the logic of it all.
We've always done it that way.

I have not said that at all. I have said if you want the privileges of a "D" then you should earn a "D".

For most 'sport skydivers' you can jump all your life with a "C".... Hell, my wife has 1200 jumps and only a "B".

I think the "D" should also include a cutaway.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 23, 2011, 3:59 PM
Post #56 of 56 (162 views)
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Re: [billvon] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Using the logic of the underlined sentence, I would need to swoop to
>know I don't want to.

Well, to put it another way, learning to do front riser 90's under instruction is a VERY good idea if you are considering swooping later. Fortunately, it is rare to find yourself swooping when you don't want to, so you have a lot more control over the situation.

And finding yourself making an unplanned night jump is more likely?

If you don't want to make night jumps, or late sunset jumps, don't get out of the plane. Better yet, don't get on the plane in the first place.

The idea that you just happen to find yourself making one is absurd.

It represents that absolute worst sort of failure of the personal responsibility element of this sport.

It is absolutely always the result of not stopping yourself from jumping in conditions for which you are not qualified.

Winds can come up unexpectedly, but night does not - ever.

The night jump requirement is purely historical, nothing more.

It comes from a time when just about the only extraordinary jump, a jump that was out of the "common" discipline, was the night jump.

Back then, it represented the culmination of your experience. It was the final thing you needed to do to be a "complete" skydiver.

Things just aren't that way anymore. There are so many disciplines today that very few can ever have any hope to master them all.

So, if you really want to make the D the totally complete skydiver, as it once was, add TI, VRW, CF, Wingsuit, Skyboard, bigway, extreme altitude, and every other niche discipline you can think of. They you have the complete skydiver.

To that end, I suggest we add an E license. It will include many or even all of those things, including the night jump requirement.

Let's stop pretending that the D is now what it once was.


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