Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Dealer Problem

 


andreeb77  (D License)

Feb 14, 2011, 1:56 PM
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Dealer Problem Can't Post

I need some advice on what to do with an issue I and some friends have with a dealer from whom we ordered skydiving gear. Heres the story in a nutshell:

In August 2009 two friends and I ordered three UPT Microns with PD reserves, a Cypres and an Icarus main canopy. Shortly after we added another Micron and another PD reserve. The whole order totaled at nearly 20,000 USD.

Three of the four rigs were delivered eventually; the fourth rig was delivered after more than one year minus the reserve. The dealer claimed problems with German authorities and promised to send the reserve individually. After several unsuccessful attempts, we agreed that he gives us a refund for the reserve.

We are still waiting for this refund. The dealer claimed to have multiple personal problems and that his company is going through a difficult time. Three times he promised that the money was on its way which obviously was a lie.

So this whole deal is taking one and half years now and my buddy still neither has a reserve nor money to buy one from someone else. Meanwhile the dealer cant be reached anymore and his website is down.

What would you do? Any ideas, comments, thoughts?

BlueS

Andree


baign32  (D 2173)

Feb 14, 2011, 2:25 PM
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Who's the dealer?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Feb 14, 2011, 2:32 PM
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

So, are you in Germany, and the dealer is also in Germany?


Scootersv

Feb 14, 2011, 3:55 PM
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Re: [Remster] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Mate, let me guess, by describing the circumstances of the deal i bet THE DEALER you are dealing with is in AU


PiLFy  (A License)

Feb 14, 2011, 4:03 PM
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Any ideas, comments, thoughts?"

Find the guy, & don't post what follows, here. Then, go deal w/Mike @Chuting Star.

I also feel you should "Out" this turkey in this thread. Think of it as a public service announcement. We all have a right to know in case he resurfaces later. Good Luck getting your money back.


axelandr  (B 103786)

Feb 14, 2011, 4:08 PM
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In reply to:
Find the guy, & don't post what follows, here. Then, go deal w/Mike @Chuting Star.

1+ :)

probably not very helpful as you say there isn't any more money left for buying stuff, but Mike is indeed great!

alex.


virgin-burner

Feb 14, 2011, 5:39 PM
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Re: [Scootersv] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Mate, let me guess, by describing the circumstances of the deal i bet THE DEALER you are dealing with is in AU

i think i'm having the same idea as you.. Unimpressed

seems i was lucky.


andreeb77  (D License)

Feb 14, 2011, 10:33 PM
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Re: [Remster] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, are you in Germany, and the dealer is also in Germany?

No, I'm in Germany and the dealer is somewhere completely different.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Feb 14, 2011, 11:39 PM
Post #9 of 146 (6144 views)
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer directly to report the issue with their dealer? Providing this person is an authorized dealer.


Emu

Feb 15, 2011, 4:25 AM
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Re: [virgin-burner] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Me three...though I am yet to be lucky


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 15, 2011, 5:04 AM
Post #11 of 146 (6061 views)
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In August 2009 two friends and I ordered three UPT Microns with PD reserves
the fourth rig was delivered after more than one year minus the reserve.

Was the reserve, by any chance, one of the larger Optimum reserves?

Not that it explains or justifies the lack of a refund, but there were some monumental delays in getting the TSO for the larger Optimum reserves, and I know several dealers were taking orders for them anyway and just waiting for production to start.

So that might explain the delay in delivery of the reserve, but the non-existant refund is unexcusable. I would suggest you check with PD, and report the problem.

With the serial numbers in hand of the reserves you did recieve, you should be able to determine when the order was placed with PD, and if the order was for 3 or 4 reserves. If the order was for four, and four were shipped, the guy kept or sold the 4th to someone else. If the order was only for 3, he might have pocketed the cash. You could also ask if he made any orders or placed a deposit for a reserve that the sale was never completed.

I don't think PD makes a habit of sharing that type of information, but given that the dealer is failing you horribly, they might be able to give you some info pretaining to your situation.


Sangis

Feb 15, 2011, 7:23 AM
Post #12 of 146 (5964 views)
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got the same problem with the same (if I'm not mistaken) dealer.

I ordered a full UPT Micron with PDR and Icarus Safire2, I received the container + reserve however the main canopy that has been made and shipped to the dealer in August 2010 still hasn't arrived to me and the dealer is barely responding (if at all) and when he does it's some lame excuse...

It's been utterly frustrating..

Yes, I contacted the manufacturers, they said they'd contact him, but I still haven't had any replies..


virgin-burner

Feb 15, 2011, 7:29 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In August 2009 two friends and I ordered three UPT Microns with PD reserves
the fourth rig was delivered after more than one year minus the reserve.

Was the reserve, by any chance, one of the larger Optimum reserves?

Not that it explains or justifies the lack of a refund, but there were some monumental delays in getting the TSO for the larger Optimum reserves, and I know several dealers were taking orders for them anyway and just waiting for production to start.

So that might explain the delay in delivery of the reserve, but the non-existant refund is unexcusable. I would suggest you check with PD, and report the problem.

With the serial numbers in hand of the reserves you did recieve, you should be able to determine when the order was placed with PD, and if the order was for 3 or 4 reserves. If the order was for four, and four were shipped, the guy kept or sold the 4th to someone else. If the order was only for 3, he might have pocketed the cash. You could also ask if he made any orders or placed a deposit for a reserve that the sale was never completed.

I don't think PD makes a habit of sharing that type of information, but given that the dealer is failing you horribly, they might be able to give you some info pretaining to your situation.

dont think it has something to do with PD or the optimum.. i know very concrete of one guy missing his main-canopy which is NOT from PD, and by the word of the company in question, it was sent out august last year. i was missing out on my main-canopy for a very long time too, i made one call to the manufacturer after numberous unanswered emails, and i havent finished describing my color-pattern, the guy one the phone knew my name and where i lived.. the manufacturer definitely has his shits together, while the dealer..

for some reason, threads about this dealer happened to get locked or disappeared pretty quickly.

seems the dealer in question likes to give the same excuses over and over again, and must have about four mothers, because they all died at one point or another over the course of the last two years..

i kept on backing the guy up. i had some sort of pleasant buisness, tough i also waited very long.

i dont know what is up, but i dont like what i'm seeing. Unimpressed



edited to add: Sangis beat me to it.


(This post was edited by virgin-burner on Feb 15, 2011, 8:22 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 15, 2011, 7:45 AM
Post #14 of 146 (5935 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
the manufacturer definitely has his shits together

That's what I thought, but I couldn't ignore the delays on the bigger Optimums as a possible cause for some of the problem. Like I said, even if it was that, it doesn't explain the lack of a refund and the stop in communications.

I still think direct contact with the manufacturer is the best idea. If anything, it puts the 'dealer' on their radar, and eventually they'll stop selling to the guy.

It's a tough situation for sure. These are 'bigger' ticket items, and the buyer can't always write off the loss, or order from another dealer before being refunded from the first. The dealer, if they mismange their business, could easily owe $10,000+ to unhappy customers, not a dollar figure a bad businessman can easily come up with.

The worst part of it is the guy in question was, at one time, a reputable, high-volume dealer that everyone seemed to love. When he later takes a turn for the worse, there are dozens of jumpers with orders pending who paid in full and are left in the lurch.


Sangis

Feb 15, 2011, 8:04 AM
Post #15 of 146 (5908 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Just received another same "relative problem" excuse from the dealer in question..

No information whether my canopy is shipped or not (not to mention any tracking numbers), it's whereabouts or anything whatsoever..

Pirate

In reply to:
The worst part of it is the guy in question was, at one time, a reputable, high-volume dealer that everyone seemed to love. When he later takes a turn for the worse, there are dozens of jumpers with orders pending who paid in full and are left in the lurch.

That's something I'm utterly boggled about as well.. One of the main reasons I ordered from him was that he seemed revered and a reputable person according to DZ.com, however it seems he's not for whatever reason that is unknown..


(This post was edited by Sangis on Feb 15, 2011, 8:07 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 15, 2011, 8:34 AM
Post #16 of 146 (5876 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
i dont know what is up, but i dont like what i'm seeing

Since nobody has named the guy in question, I don't know for sure if this applies, but there was a thread recently asking about a gear dealer who used to post here all the time, but hasn't been heard from in awhile.

In response to that thread, about that guy, another poster wrote (on Jan 25, 2011)-
Quote:
I see him all the time at his shop on the dropzone. The shop looks pretty flashy now so I think that's where his time is going.

Maybe we're all talking about different guys, but if not, it's sad that he's still in business and investing in a retail space while you guys are out gear and money.


Sangis

Feb 15, 2011, 8:43 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Edited due to naming..

But anyway, I think most people know who we're talkin about.. Someone that really likes to "sell" the Micron and Icarus package (AU)..


(This post was edited by Sangis on Feb 15, 2011, 8:59 AM)


virgin-burner

Feb 15, 2011, 8:52 AM
Post #18 of 146 (5846 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

maybe we shouldnt name the dealer, as it will get this thread binned in no time.. i think everyone on here knows who we're talking about if they followed the forums for a while..

and since there is now no way to reach the dealer in question, people dont really have to be warned about it, at this time anyway..


andreeb77  (D License)

Feb 15, 2011, 9:06 AM
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Re: [virgin-burner] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Some answers to some questions:

No, it was not a bigger Optimum but a PDR 143.

Yes, I do think we are all talking about the same guy.

I am wondering about weather he just can't be reached by people he owes money and/or gear or also by new customers?! Crazy


virgin-burner

Feb 15, 2011, 9:15 AM
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

there's just another thread that got resurrected, with interesting questions asked there, add one to one..

let's leave it for now; usually said person chimes in as soon as he is, maybe even rightfully so, "badmouthed"..

i'm more than a little disappointed anyway.. Unimpressed

edited to add: right now, the other thread i mentioned is one of the top3; and it aint chutingstar..


(This post was edited by virgin-burner on Feb 15, 2011, 9:16 AM)


andreeb77  (D License)

Feb 15, 2011, 10:31 AM
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Re: [hcsvader] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have you tried contacting the manufacturer directly to report the issue with their dealer? Providing this person is an authorized dealer.

No, I haven't done that yet and yes he says that he is an authorized dealer.


virgin-burner

Feb 15, 2011, 10:40 AM
Post #22 of 146 (5774 views)
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Have you tried contacting the manufacturer directly to report the issue with their dealer? Providing this person is an authorized dealer.

No, I haven't done that yet and yes he says that he is an authorized dealer.

from all i know, he actually is..

i did contact the manufacturer for one piece of gear i've ordered.. as i said, the guy on the phone i only gave my first name, then described the color pattern of the canopy.. i wasnt half way through and he told me my second name and where i lived; and said it would be delivered very soon. two weeks later dhl rang my door. it's NOT the manufacturers that are to blame.. Unimpressed


Fridmarr  (C License)

Feb 15, 2011, 1:47 PM
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Re: [Sangis] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm having the exact same issue as Sangis. I'm pretty sure we're all talking about the same person...


bigway

Feb 15, 2011, 4:22 PM
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Re: [Fridmarr] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes you are ll talking about me.
However mark my words, I will not leave anyone in the lurch. I wouldn't be able to live with myself doin that.
I currently have three potential people trying to help me with my problems and I will prevail.
Sure, the easy option is to just declare bankruptcy and everyone lose out, these sort of threads kind of force that option upon me really, but I would die before I did that to a skydiver.

Sangi, you only tell half your story a every other post where you moan about people. Don't forget how you 'needed' me to ship your canopy undervalued to get out if taxes, only for your canopy to be returned to me twice now and then you even asked me to delay shipping it for a further two months ao you could save to pay the taxes. Your canopy is sittin her right next to me and you know that, yet you still tell people you don't get replies from me. I just don't know if I want to spend another $200 sendingit toyou for the third time. I have told you to organize your own shipping after you cost me fortune.

Andree, you have every right to moan, I'm having trouble payin you for the reserve...and for the German Vat you had to pay because when I shipped it under valued to you you got caught and had to pay the taxes,,,,oh, my mistake,,,, I mean when the manufacturer shipped you your four rigs and you got stung with taxes.
Not only did you get the gear at dealer pricing but now I have to pay your countries VAT. Now you moan when I was honest to you and told you I'm having financially difficulties.

Anyway, everyone will get their gear, I'm not here to rip people off, I have been one of the largest distributors for four years and then had a year of very bad luck and cash-flow issues building a new store....and it doesn't help when everyone seems to think I'm this big cocaine addict!! Where the fuck did that come from anyway?? Everyone is writing me emails tellin me they hear I'm a drugie. Unbelivable.


Andree take me to court and sue me for not paying German vat and duty. Sangi, take me to court for not getting your canopy into the country under valued so you declined to accept it.


The rest of my customers...you will get your gear. Some might be late, but it will come and those who know me know damn well I will make sure you end up with a good result, even if it means a free trade in for the downsize once you are ready.
Just like we loan you brand new rigs while you wait for your rigs that take 24 weeks to be made, so you get value for money.


I'm sorry for my situation but those who want to hurt my business will force bankruptcy and everyone losses out. How about given me a chance to make things right, get things back on track and save all your gear. I will die trying to before I let a jumper lose a cent.


I will not reply anymore to this thread, I won't even look at it again. I could feel it was here and have ignred it until now. But who fuck it, I ain't hiding from anyone and I'm working hard on saving everything.


bigway

Feb 15, 2011, 5:24 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Set the shop up, then had problems. Things can escalate very quickly. However we are investable. I may have a terrible reputation at the moment but it's nothing a couple of hard years work and service won't fix.

I am sorry for the situation, but I haven't run away or declared bankruptcy. Surely that shows my intentions. I'm proud of what I've done in this industry, I never for a second thought I would end up in this position and it happened very quickly due to personal and financial situations.

If anyone cares to know about my year,
I have two mothers as I'm adopted and was close to both as lived with both. Both died, one after about four strokes in a period of a few months.
I have two fathers obviously as above an one died,
My other father who adopted me had a heart operation and then was diagnosed with parkinsons disease and then diabetes.
My nana died as well as my partners nan and my partner and her mother have both just gone through cancer, and I have had my own health issue. That's the past twelve months and that's not including all the friends we all lost.

I'm not asking for your hearts to bleed by saying that but maybe if any of you guys experienced that just after you opened your first shop and spent the money you sold half your company for on demo rigs, you may understand how hard those 12 months could be. Hard enough to not be able to be on email all day everyday and concentrating on work as much as I needed to.

It's been hard and cash-flow caught up to me.

Shit happens. Now I've got to get it all back on track. Although if you would all like my business to fold and just give up, feel free to keep moaning and turning future customers away.

Otherwise watch this space cause I will at least walk away from this with everyone gettin their gear, if I have to walk away.


Right now, I would suggest those who don't need a demo rig in Australia to buy from mile in chutingstar or Bonnie at gravity gear while we get through this.

We are currently goin over three different investors offers and working out what works best for the company and the vision in the long run.
Those people who get late orders will be offered free downsizes with demo canopies that have 50-100 jumps on them. We will make this right.


bigway

Feb 15, 2011, 5:27 PM
Post #26 of 146 (2795 views)
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Re: [andreeb77] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not an authorized PD dealer and have never claimed to be.
I purchase my PD canopies through a supplier, not the manufacturer. Never have I claimed that.
Everything else we sell is purchased through the manufacturers directly.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 15, 2011, 7:30 PM
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Re: [bigway] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I never for a second thought I would end up in this position and it happened very quickly due to personal and financial situations

One thing should have nothing to do with the other. If a customer pays you for a product, you can't just spend their money on whatever you want. It's not yours to spend, and it's stealing. The profit is yours to spend, but the portion that is intended to cover your cost of the goods is not yours, it is simply in your custody and doing anything with it but pay your supplier is a deriliction of your duty.

It doesn't help that you're Mr Big Shot who ordered a fleet of demo rigs, and now has a 'flashy' new retial store. Ever thought about pulling a 143R out of one of those demo rigs, and sending it to the guy who started this thread?

Don't have a 143R? How about selling two of your 176s or 193s and sending the guy his money back?

If these people really did pay you for gear which you never ordered or delivered to them, and you're sitting on a pile of demo rigs, which can be parted out or sold off, and they're sitting on nothing, don't expect any sympathy, understanding, cooperation, or anything besides bad feelings and ill will.

You are the one who mismanaged your business, you are the one who spent money that wasn't yours, and now you are the one who needs to have a fire sale on all of your inventory to people their money back. Your business with your 'investors' is not their problem, that's your problem, and they shouldn't have to wait for you to solve your problems, which you created, to get their money/gear in their hands.


andreeb77  (D License)

Feb 15, 2011, 10:11 PM
Post #28 of 146 (2722 views)
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Re: [bigway] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't even know where to begin. Luckily Dave already wrote some very good stuff.

In reply to:
Not only did you get the gear at dealer pricing but now I have to pay your countries VAT. Now you moan when I was honest to you and told you I'm having financially difficulties.

I asked you for a quote, you stated a price, I payed. It can't be my problem, if it was under priced, sorry!

I'm not moaning and you haven't been honest with me. As a last resort I went to a public forum (without naming names BTW) to ask for opinions and advice. You lied to me when you said that the money was on its way....three times! I understand that it is hard to be honest and tell a customer that you don't have his money anymore but hey you gotta have balls, don't you?

In reply to:
Andree take me to court and sue me for not paying German vat and duty

That's not really the issue here, is it? The responsibility for paying VAT and duty is on the side of the customer (and we payed VAT and duties for the rig). You offered to take over these costs!

I wish you luck with saving your business and I wish your customers luck with getting their gear/money.


bigway

Feb 15, 2011, 10:26 PM
Post #29 of 146 (2716 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a business, money goes in an out of it everyday. Different manufacturers have different payment terms and different customers have different payment terms. It's called cash-flow.
It's not stealing at all, you don't just receive money from a customer for one product and then pay it to the manufacturer, as they don't want payment until they invoice you. Some invoice you straight away, some invoice in seven months, some in three months. We also have customers on payment plans.

I'm no mr bigshot. Imnsomeone who tried a new thing and I messed up. If you're calling me a thief then your ignorant. Nobody has lost anything and nothing has been stolen.
You have half a story and you make these stupid accusations.
Why would I send someonea reserve when we already sent it and it was lost in the post and can not be claimed on insurance cause they demanded it to be under valued and the day they got taxed for half their gear they demand we pay it?
Seriously, why?

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, far too much speculation, I never should of said anything to begin with.
If I was to sell my demo containers and canopies I would be done for theft due to my agreements with manufacturers. Another point you have speculated on with no understanding.

Discuss all your speculations all you like in these forums, all you are doing is speculating and I don't have time to waste sitting here arguing over your accusations.

Business's go bankrupt all the time and it is not called stealing. I suggest you stop getting people worked up with that sort of crap as I'm doing what I can not to go bankrupt and to make sure everyone gets what they want. It's bullshit like what you are writing that makes me think going bankrupt wouldnt be such a bad so I don't have to listen to this crap.
As for selling my inventory and all this crap, again, ou have mo idea what I'm doing to save this business, I've said I'm doing everything I can, so quit it with your pedastool.

As for sympathy, I don't expect anything from anyone in here but I would think as a community that would help each other, not tear me apart and call me a thief trying to make sure nobody trusts me as then the only option I do have is to wrap te business up and call it a day....legally and ethically. It is business. If that's what you'd rather me do, just let me know as I could handle going and getting a job that will pay my household bills.

Anymore death threats on myself and my family through emails phone calls of private message on this website will be reported to the police.


bigway

Feb 15, 2011, 10:59 PM
Post #30 of 146 (2694 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave really don't know what else to say except I'm doing everything I can to make right by people. It is a huge lesson learned and I'm trying to do the right thing.

I can not post here anymore as it will drive me to giving up and I really don't want to do that.
I need to put my head down and resolve the situation, not sit here and explain myself.

I'm gettin death threats and my partner is scared and I'm nit going to take much more of this. Those who have threatened to kill my partner and children that I don't have while hiding behind a keyboard are the lowest form of this community. You can be certain it has been reported to Interpol


Sangis

Feb 15, 2011, 11:25 PM
Post #31 of 146 (2686 views)
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In reply to:
Sangi, you only tell half your story a every other post where you moan about people. Don't forget how you 'needed' me to ship your canopy undervalued to get out if taxes, only for your canopy to be returned to me twice now and then you even asked me to delay shipping it for a further two months ao you could save to pay the taxes. Your canopy is sittin her right next to me and you know that, yet you still tell people you don't get replies from me. I just don't know if I want to spend another $200 sendingit toyou for the third time. I have told you to organize your own shipping after you cost me fortune.

I'm not denying that I asked you to hold it for a while after it was manufactured, because I couldn't pay the full taxes at that time.

I asked you, yes to maybe help me find a way to avoid tax, you willingly agreed (never forced you) to try and help me out.. I waited, the communication from you started fading away over the course of autumn and winter and I was left in the unknown on what's happening or what the plan was.. Before christmas you contacted me saying that the canopy is being held at my country's customs and that it should be released after the holidays..

Apparently the canopy was returned back to you.. I don't blame you for any kind of problems why the customs didn't pass my canopy. So now I asked you to ship it via courier.

I was constantly writing to your emails / FB with questions about how's the shipping going / any tracking numbers etc. I wouldn't get any straightforward reply, but that you would look it up the next day and provide the needed info. I write one mail, wait for a week, two and then I get the same reply.. So I got frustrated of being in the unknown and contacted the manufacturer and also posted in this thread..

I never intended any business harm to you / your company. I just want strong communication on how to sort this problem out so we'd all be happy..


bigway

Feb 16, 2011, 4:28 AM
Post #32 of 146 (2624 views)
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Re: [Sangis] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Ignas thanks for the email you sent my way. I appreciate it and will get your canopy back in the mail tomorrow via a courier.
You seem to be a good guy and it seems we have both bent over backwards for each other.
Andree, check your email. Let's get this sorted. I have no intentions to leave you out of pocket. I'm just having a shitty time and take things personally as it kills me that I'm letting people down. Trust me on one thing, I would live in a cardboard box if I have to to make sure my customers all get what they have paid for. Sorry.


Sangis

Feb 16, 2011, 4:58 AM
Post #33 of 146 (2603 views)
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Re: [bigway] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's hope we can all get sorted and end this nonsense Smile


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 16, 2011, 7:14 AM
Post #34 of 146 (2562 views)
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Re: [bigway] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's called cash-flow.
It's not stealing at all, you don't just receive money from a customer for one product and then pay it to the manufacturer, as they don't want payment until they invoice you

Cannibalizing customer pre-payments is not a part of 'cash flow'. If your supplier doesn't want paid immediately (and I've never met a supplier that wouldn't accept early payment, some even offer a discount for cash-up-front) it's up to you to hold the cost of goods in escrow until the payment is due. It's not your money, it was never intended to be your money, and if you spent it as your own, that was your error and your responsibility to fix.

In terms of odd dealings like mis-represented customs value, or improperly insured packages, again, that's on you as the business owner to not be a party to. Simply refuse to be a part to any illegal dealings, and wrap the cost of fully insured shipping with your prefered carrier into your price quotes.

I've been in business for myself for almost 10 years, and I know what it means to play it fast and loose with the company finances, and this is exactly what you did. It's the classic ponzi scheme where you do business with money that isn't yours, and everything is great until the owner of the money wants to be paid (or recieve their goods).

Like I said, you fix any outstanding problems you have with anyone in a week if you sold off those demo rigs, or anything esle you could get your hands on. At this point, those items are all 'ill gotten gains' and you certainly don't deserve to hold on to them. You can point fingers all day long, but until we see your ads in the classifieds at fire sale prices, it's all just talk.


bigway

Feb 16, 2011, 4:21 PM
Post #35 of 146 (2465 views)
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Those demo rigs were purchased before the new company even opened it's doors. They are not I'll gotten gains. They were purchased with start up capital.
Again, you continue to speculate.
You also don't know what agreements I have with manufacturers over those demo rigs an what percentage they own of them. Please stop speculating. The rest you say 'may' be right, but stop with the speculation as all you are doing is making a situation worse for me.


liftedtitan

Feb 16, 2011, 5:43 PM
Post #36 of 146 (2435 views)
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what I don't understand, is how the hell the price of a few rigs/canopies can have you in that much trouble? Thats how fine of a line you are operating with? Just refund the money, probably a total of what 10,000-15,000? If thats enough to put you out of business, then maybe it is time for you to close the doors.


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Feb 19, 2011, 5:59 PM
Post #37 of 146 (2266 views)
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I guess the amount owed me is small compared to the others. Unimpressed


tayra

Feb 26, 2011, 4:33 AM
Post #38 of 146 (2023 views)
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What can people who have current; yet to be placed orders who have prepaid expect from this? money refunded? legal proceedings? or will they be left flat out of pocket.


virgin-burner

Feb 26, 2011, 4:43 AM
Post #39 of 146 (2017 views)
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wish for good luck!

if it helps, i wish you the same.. Unimpressed


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 26, 2011, 6:47 AM
Post #40 of 146 (1985 views)
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I'm trying to understand why somebody who lives in Germany,Switzerland or Denmark will buy stuff made in USA from a dealer in Australia????
Why not from the local dealer? Or a dealer from USA?

I'm not trying to criticize you guys, I'm just trying to understand why.

Blue skies


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 26, 2011, 7:12 AM
Post #41 of 146 (1979 views)
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Quote:
I'm not trying to criticize you guys, I'm just trying to understand why

According to his earlier post, this dealer was willing to play the game with customs and declared values, so one angle would be that international customers could save a ton of dough on the various import taxes their countries charge.

Aside from that, who knows? Unless you have a dealer in your town, you'll always be dealing via phone/e-mail, but at least if you limit it to dealers in your state or country, you might have some legal recourse in case things don't go as planned.


virgin-burner

Feb 26, 2011, 3:06 PM
Post #42 of 146 (1920 views)
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aside from what dealers charge in MY country, about 1000$ plus on say a main-canopy..

then i dont care much for the additional 200$ from a dealer in australia..


mrbiceps  (D License)

Feb 26, 2011, 3:52 PM
Post #43 of 146 (1906 views)
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I am sorry to say but the gear shop at picton is closed and it has a sign on the door saying "closed for stock take for investors".
Anyone who has given Gary $ i dont think will ever see any of it back. He has gone into hiding and is not answering any calls. From what i have heard there are 5 new jumpers who are owed $8000 for new rigs that they ordered from Gary. Apparantly 2 people with baseball bats took 2 rigs from the shop during the week. The shop was broken into and another rig was taken on the weekend.


Rigless

Feb 26, 2011, 4:52 PM
Post #44 of 146 (1893 views)
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Pirate


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Feb 26, 2011, 5:07 PM
Post #45 of 146 (1884 views)
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Sadly I fear that the experience many have had with this dealer will wind up being summed up with "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." Unsure


tayra

Feb 26, 2011, 5:25 PM
Post #46 of 146 (1874 views)
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What a welcome to the sport, as if it wasn't expensive enough already, what's another 8 and a half grand to the pile?
Lesson learnt in stunning fashion...


virgin-burner

Feb 26, 2011, 5:38 PM
Post #47 of 146 (1866 views)
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In reply to:
Sadly I fear that the experience many have had with this dealer will wind up being summed up with "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." Unsure

well, i really was convinced gary was "good people"..

now, i feel sorry for putting him up over the last few "gary's NOT good people"-threads..

i've ordered a main and a reserve from him; while they took a little longer to arrive, i ended up getting them. future investments will be made over the mgf's themselves tough..


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Feb 26, 2011, 7:38 PM
Post #48 of 146 (1819 views)
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Shop was having a big sale today, looked like they were trying to clear out all the inventory.

Feel pretty bad for Liam, poor kids just trying to make money to jump and his rig ends up getting stolen just because he is working in the shop.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 26, 2011, 8:19 PM
Post #49 of 146 (1801 views)
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Quote:
Shop was having a big sale today, looked like they were trying to clear out all the inventory.

How about offering to send it to some of these customers who keep posting that they're high and dry with nothing to show for their money?

I guess I feel sorry for the kid that got his rig stolen too, but no more or less sorry then for the above mentioned jumpers who had thei rmoney stolen. At least the kid got to see/jump his rig to some extent, it sounds like that's more than some people got out of the deal.

It just adds insult to injury the way this is turning out. Last week the guy was posting that I didn't know about cash flow or running a business, when I just suggested that if someone pays you for a rig, the cash that you need to pay the manufacturer is not your cash to spend. You can do whatever you want with the profits, those are yours, but the principal to pay for the gear needs to sit in escrow and wait for the invoice to come due. He went on to explain that he was 'in talks' with investors who were going to set this whole thing straight, and everyone would be taken care of in the end.

Cash flow? Investors? Who does this guy think he is, Lehman Brothers? You order a rig for someone, write them a bill and get paid, chip off your chunk of the deal, and send the rest on to the manufacturer, it's not that hard.

I would suggest that anyone this guy left in the lurch contact any manufacturers he was suppoed to order from for you, and see if they have any info on your order or any payments made on your behalf.

Beyond that, has anyone seen this fleet of demo rigs he put together a year or two ago? He had a whole pile of Vector 3s, with brand new canopies he bought to loan out or for demo use. Where are those now? I know if I was out many thousands of dollars, I'd take one of those as opposed to nothing. They could jump that, or sell it and maybe buy a more suitable used rig.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Feb 26, 2011, 8:24 PM
Post #50 of 146 (1797 views)
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No demo rigs to be seen in the shop. Really the shop only contains a bunch of skydiving t-shirts a few odd shaped jumpsuits and not much else.

I have heard that people have contacted manufacturers and have been told that they haven't recieved thier order and that they were't taking any new orders as KK still owes them money for gear that has been shipped.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 26, 2011, 8:36 PM
Post #51 of 146 (2657 views)
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Quote:
they were't taking any new orders as KK still owes them money for gear that has been shipped

This guy's working both ends of the deal. Not unheard of, but then to come online and try to defend yourself to boot, that's messed up.

What a fucktard.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Feb 26, 2011, 8:52 PM
Post #52 of 146 (2650 views)
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This was posted on the skysurfer forum (australia skydiving forum)
http://www.skysurfer.com.au/...g-from-karnage-krew/
Quote:
Sorry to send out this email, but I have lately been involved in getting a refund from Karnage Krew for a canopy I had paid for and never recieved. I paid for my canopy in mid November, last year, and was constantly being told that it would arrive next week. Well next week never came. Finally after 3 months of being given the run around I was fed up and emailed the manufacturer who promptly informed that the order had never been placed and would never be filled as Karnage Krew are a long way behind on their account and any money recieved would be put against outstanding debts. Until Karnage Krew had caught up with its account, they wouldn't be supplying them with any more product. This particular manufacturer has since supplied me in my hands with my new canopy in 3 working days from the time I deposited the payment for the canopy, what a fantastic service, If any one is interested I am happy to let you know privately who it was as they are amazing to deal with.
But more about Karnage Krew. They are promising that they can supply new complete systems for an amazing price, but at the current time, at least 5 new jumpers have paid well over $8000 each and when they have contacted the manufacturers, the orders have never been placed.
You only have to look at dropzone.com and see what other problems Karnage Krew have around the place. This is not only at Picton but Australia wide and also internationally.
A measure of Karnage Krew is the shop at the Picton dz. They never have any stock, all the gear you need every day, rubber bands, alti batteries, pull up cords, closing loops, gloves, sunnies, etc are unavailable. Their is no gear for students to purchase, a cheap helmet, cost effective alti's, goggles etc. The manager of the shop, Liam, tries to do the right thing but never has the stock at hand. Why is this, these consumables are cheap and good business practice to keep customerts happy.
Its also a strange way of doing business to expect a new participant into the sport to front up with over $8000 without recieving any gear for up to 6 months. They are supposed to be able to have a loaner rig but nobody seems to know where these are and if they are available are being shared by lots of customers instead of the promised one for each buyer.
Be very very suspect off any dealings with Karnage Krew. I personally will never deal with them again, even if they are still operating in the future.


virgin-burner

Feb 27, 2011, 4:37 AM
Post #53 of 146 (2554 views)
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that's fucked up..


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 27, 2011, 5:02 AM
Post #54 of 146 (2545 views)
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And all this, folks, is why banks often want you to have a business plan before you start. I'll bet he didn't think this was the path he was starting down, it just ended that way when the advertising and PR budget was given priority over product.

Wendy P.


virgin-burner

Feb 27, 2011, 5:45 AM
Post #55 of 146 (2530 views)
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or you have your accounting down, coz if you dont..

makes me sad, and i'm deeply feeling sorry for the people that got ripped off their money.

he still has the nerve to sell gear recently tough: http://www.skysurfer.com.au/...search__1#entry70083

how the fuck can this be even close to profitable!?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 27, 2011, 5:57 AM
Post #56 of 146 (2522 views)
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Quote:
how the fuck can this be even close to profitable!?

When you don't pay for product, and you don't deliver that product to pre-paid customers, everything is profitable.

I wonder who that brand new V3 actually belonged to? A pre-paid customer? UPT?


virgin-burner

Feb 27, 2011, 6:00 AM
Post #57 of 146 (2520 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
how the fuck can this be even close to profitable!?

When you don't pay for product, and you don't deliver that product to pre-paid customers, everything is profitable.

I wonder who that brand new V3 actually belonged to? A pre-paid customer? UPT?

ha! why havent i thought of a buisness-idea like that!? Unimpressed


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Feb 27, 2011, 12:30 PM
Post #58 of 146 (2455 views)
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In reply to:
he still has the nerve to sell gear recently tough: http://www.skysurfer.com.au/...search__1#entry70083

Date of listing is over a year ago...


virgin-burner

Feb 27, 2011, 12:39 PM
Post #59 of 146 (2446 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
he still has the nerve to sell gear recently tough: http://www.skysurfer.com.au/...search__1#entry70083

Date of listing is over a year ago...

my bad, thought i've read 2011..


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Feb 27, 2011, 12:41 PM
Post #60 of 146 (2443 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
he still has the nerve to sell gear recently tough: http://www.skysurfer.com.au/...search__1#entry70083

Date of listing is over a year ago...

my bad, thought i've read 2011..

I wouldn't have been surprised if you'd been right though. Unsure


James.UWE  (B 106560)

Feb 27, 2011, 3:20 PM
Post #61 of 146 (2398 views)
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Re: Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Shit, what a fucking mess!

I feel very lucky to have ordered/received a rig through KK before all this kicked off.

Looks like he forgot basic business principles in order to get big quick by selling cheap, then kept taking orders to try and pay for previous orders etc etc till the credit ran out.

I feel for the people involved in this!


mpohl

Feb 27, 2011, 3:36 PM
Post #62 of 146 (2382 views)
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Sounds like my 8-yr old running his lemonade stand. "Look, I made $12 today!" "No son, you didn't!

Cost-of-goods-sold was $12. Now, you just own your remaining inventory which hopefully will make you some money.



In reply to:
Shit, what a fucking mess!

I feel very lucky to have ordered/received a rig through KK before all this kicked off.

Looks like he forgot basic business principles in order to get big quick by selling cheap, then kept taking orders to try and pay for previous orders etc etc till the credit ran out.

I feel for the people involved in this!


dgw  (C License)

Feb 27, 2011, 3:55 PM
Post #63 of 146 (2368 views)
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It is, undoubtedly, a shit situation. All I say is this. Gary sorted me back in the day (4 years ago), and it was all good / above and beyond etc. I am disappointed for him and his customers. I have never doubted that he has tried to make it easier for people to get gear.


cguest4  (C License)

Feb 28, 2011, 11:50 AM
Post #64 of 146 (2230 views)
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This all sounds awful. However, I am surprised that people have paid all that money up front to a dealer. When I bought my rig some years back I paid a deposit to my UK dealer and then only paid the balance when the rig was completed, which was when he had to pay it himself.

To avoid anyone losing their money in the future can I suggest you do this, particularly if you are using a dealer based in a different country.

I hope this situation does eventually work out for everyone, even though it sounds highly doubtful right now.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 28, 2011, 8:21 PM
Post #65 of 146 (2143 views)
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Quote:
I am surprised that people have paid all that money up front to a dealer. When I bought my rig some years back I paid a deposit to my UK dealer and then only paid the balance when the rig was completed, which was when he had to pay it himself.

I had this same thought after my last post in this thread. It wouldn't be a bad idea for anyone dealing with a non-local gear dealer (aside from Square 1 or the Sunshine Factory caliber dealers) to use a 'secure' payment plan.

Maybe if you agree to pay 50% (or whatever % the dealer requires) of the purchase price for each component directly to the manufacturer at the time of the order. Mark the check/money order/payment with both your name, and the name of the dealer. The remaining balance is paid directly to the dealer upon delivery. This way, the majority of the money is paid directly to the manufacturer and your name is attached to the order and payment if the dealer should 'disappear'. The dealer accpets the remainder of the payment upon delivery, at which point the customer has their gear, and the dealer can subtract his cut pay the balance with the manufacturer.

It's a plan that gives the small dealers a chance at getting some business that otherwise they might miss out on. If a small dealer wanted to offer me a good price or exceptional service, my concern would be the security of my money and my order. The above payment plan allows for the customer to feel secure in the deal, and still allows for the dealer to make their profit and keep the amount of that profit to themselves.

More or less it prevents what we have here. The dealer never gets their hands on the lions share of the money, rightfully so because they're not entitled to it anyway. The only time they get their hands on someone elses money is after you have your gear, at which point they have the balance of the manufacturers money, which is in their best interest to pay to the manufacturer to maintain the business relationship, but even if they want to stiff the manufacturer and skip town with their cash, the customer has their gear in-hand, and is no longer invovled.


virgin-burner

Mar 1, 2011, 1:25 AM
Post #66 of 146 (2093 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I am surprised that people have paid all that money up front to a dealer. When I bought my rig some years back I paid a deposit to my UK dealer and then only paid the balance when the rig was completed, which was when he had to pay it himself.

I had this same thought after my last post in this thread. It wouldn't be a bad idea for anyone dealing with a non-local gear dealer (aside from Square 1 or the Sunshine Factory caliber dealers) to use a 'secure' payment plan.

Maybe if you agree to pay 50% (or whatever % the dealer requires) of the purchase price for each component directly to the manufacturer at the time of the order. Mark the check/money order/payment with both your name, and the name of the dealer. The remaining balance is paid directly to the dealer upon delivery. This way, the majority of the money is paid directly to the manufacturer and your name is attached to the order and payment if the dealer should 'disappear'. The dealer accpets the remainder of the payment upon delivery, at which point the customer has their gear, and the dealer can subtract his cut pay the balance with the manufacturer.

It's a plan that gives the small dealers a chance at getting some business that otherwise they might miss out on. If a small dealer wanted to offer me a good price or exceptional service, my concern would be the security of my money and my order. The above payment plan allows for the customer to feel secure in the deal, and still allows for the dealer to make their profit and keep the amount of that profit to themselves.

More or less it prevents what we have here. The dealer never gets their hands on the lions share of the money, rightfully so because they're not entitled to it anyway. The only time they get their hands on someone elses money is after you have your gear, at which point they have the balance of the manufacturers money, which is in their best interest to pay to the manufacturer to maintain the business relationship, but even if they want to stiff the manufacturer and skip town with their cash, the customer has their gear in-hand, and is no longer invovled.

well, to be fair, you can direct at least part of the "guilt" to this forum. how many threads were there about how awesome this dealer was? how many threads disappeared or got locked when it was said he wasnt!? think about that..

looking back and saying, "oh dude, that's your fault, how could you!?" seems a little too simple for me..


piisfish

Mar 1, 2011, 1:39 AM
Post #67 of 146 (2088 views)
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OK now the man is down, let's stop the beating please.
GAry did say he would do all he can to get money/gear back to his customers. My WAG is they will need time.
When you have your head in the mud, it is not easy to breathe and get up if people continue to press you down.
I'm not suggesting you all praise Gary, or send him money or more orders, just let him breathe.
I have been in very uncomfortable financial situations, and still not very balanced, but getting better. It did happen to me that it involved fellow skydivers (I was always on customer side, receiving gear and being late paying), and they got their dues, late but they got them. And boy I did feel crappy. Now if I am not paying immediately, I am not ordering. Lesson learnt.


shropshire  (C License)

Mar 1, 2011, 2:25 AM
Post #68 of 146 (2073 views)
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Agreed - but Caveat emptor.

If something looks too good to be true - it generally is.


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Mar 2, 2011, 2:57 PM
Post #69 of 146 (1912 views)
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I did not buy gear from them, I just shipped a few hundred dollars worth of sweatshirts to him 4 years ago. When I contact him its always one thing or another, cat sick, girlfriend sick, money problems and until I started reading all this stuff I was "Okay cool, I can wait"

Personally at this point I wouldnt trust him and I am confident I wont see a dime what Im owed.


Rigless

Mar 5, 2011, 4:37 AM
Post #70 of 146 (1764 views)
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I had to send him a huge box of Larsen&Brusgaard stuff..


pnuwin  (D 112233)

Mar 6, 2011, 2:58 AM
Post #71 of 146 (1653 views)
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This won't be good news for those owed money and gear. I was at the dropzone today and the Karnage Krew gear shop was gutted. No stock, not even a pullup cord. It looked like a new business is setting up in its place. Not a gear shop though, just a coffee shop.

Very sad to see this go so bad for so many people. I really hope Gary comes good and finds a way to at least refund people.


nigel99  (D 1)

Mar 6, 2011, 3:33 AM
Post #72 of 146 (1643 views)
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In reply to:
It is, undoubtedly, a shit situation. All I say is this. Gary sorted me back in the day (4 years ago), and it was all good / above and beyond etc. I am disappointed for him and his customers. I have never doubted that he has tried to make it easier for people to get gear.

Disclaimer - I have never met or dealt with KK. Business's do go under and sometimes it is due to poor customer service, sometimes poor business practice or knowledge. But sometimes all it takes is a few events of bad luck to take a business under. Granted alot of people are out of pocket in to fairly large sums of money. Under UK law at least if you paid on a credit card there is quite alot of recompense available it is something people could look into.

From the outside looking in... It looks like Gary is a "nice guy" who tried to bend the rules and go the extra mile for customers. The problem looks like the "nice guy" persona over-took the business needs and it all got into a big mess.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2011, 8:18 AM
Post #73 of 146 (1553 views)
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In reply to:
Those demo rigs were purchased before the new company even opened it's doors. They are not I'll gotten gains. They were purchased with start up capital.
Again, you continue to speculate.
You also don't know what agreements I have with manufacturers over those demo rigs an what percentage they own of them. Please stop speculating. The rest you say 'may' be right, but stop with the speculation as all you are doing is making a situation worse for me.

Just a quick comment...for the jumpers that might be unaware~

Some manufactures offer partial or full sponsorship to skydivers, gear at either greatly reduced prices or even free.

When receiving said sponsorship, you should be sure you understand THEIR policy regarding the resale of those items.

You usually need to hang onto the item for a specified period of time, in my case, one sponsor recommends three years.

They aren't 'giving' you gear so you can line your pockets by selling it at profit for less than wholesale, that can hurt their relationship with their dealers...it's been done and pretty much always ends bad.

Sounds to me like that's kinda why Gary can't liquidate those assets, the 'demo rigs' are basically on 'lease' from the manufacturer until such time their value depreciates enough to match what he 'invested' in them.

If he were to sell off those rigs, it WOULD be stealing so to speak...kind of like trying to sell a car you leased from your employer.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 6, 2011, 9:49 AM
Post #74 of 146 (1513 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Business's do go under and sometimes it is due to poor customer service, sometimes poor business practice or knowledge. But sometimes all it takes is a few events of bad luck to take a business under. Granted alot of people are out of pocket in to fairly large sums of money

This was poor business practice, plain and simple. The large sums of money that people are out were mis-appropriated by Gary, and used for something besides paying for the gear that was ordered. That's not 'bad luck', or circumstances beyond his control, it was a willful mis-use of funds that were not his, and that he could not replenish.

I don't care if the guy was facing jail time or starvation, the money wasn't his. It was in his possesion for one expressed purpose, and that was to pay for the gear the customers ordered.

Beyond all that, we're not talking about a couple hundred bucks the guy blew at a strip club. There is more than one complaint of a full rig ordered, to the tune of $8000 each, with no part of the order filled. Just based on what we know from this thread, it's well over $10k that is un-accoutned for, and that doesn't happen overnight or by accident.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2011, 11:18 AM
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In reply to:
Quote:
Business's do go under and sometimes it is due to poor customer service, sometimes poor business practice or knowledge. But sometimes all it takes is a few events of bad luck to take a business under. Granted alot of people are out of pocket in to fairly large sums of money

This was poor business practice, plain and simple. The large sums of money that people are out were mis-appropriated by Gary, and used for something besides paying for the gear that was ordered. That's not 'bad luck', or circumstances beyond his control, it was a willful mis-use of funds that were not his, and that he could not replenish.

I don't care if the guy was facing jail time or starvation, the money wasn't his. It was in his possession for one expressed purpose, and that was to pay for the gear the customers ordered.

Beyond all that, we're not talking about a couple hundred bucks the guy blew at a strip club. There is more than one complaint of a full rig ordered, to the tune of $8000 each, with no part of the order filled. Just based on what we know from this thread, it's well over $10k that is unaccounted for, and that doesn't happen overnight or by accident.


Unfortunately many in today's business world don't understand that, or if they do the don't abide by it.

It's NOT cash flow, and the only asset to the business is the projected profit from the transaction...now if your supplier doesn't invoice you until the product is ready for delivery...say maybe weeks or months from when you receive payment, nothing wrong with holding the customers money in a safe interest bearing account of some kind.

You make money on someone else's money, which is also profit.

When as a business you start to float yourself 'loans' by using the receivables for things other than the designated accounts payable...you're running a pyramid, and as with all Ponzi business plans one hick-up and everything tumbles.

I understand how trying to grow a business fast it may be tempting to parlay the money coming in, but unless you have 'real' assets to liquidate, to cover that 'appropriation' in case you gamble incorrectly...then the 'fast & loose' comment is quite accurate.

I don't think Karnage started out with the intention of failing a business for personal gain, and hopefully he will be true to his word and eventually make things right with everyone...I know people in similar circumstances that both have and have not.

That being said... all I truly know of the business is what I've read on here over the years, great prices on popular gear.

In some cases it seemed prices almost too good to be true, I know what's all involved in running a 'small' business and I couldn't understand how this one could be making money...I figured I was either missing a few things in the equation or that he was turning stuff for little or no profit, basically donating his time to get lots of equipment into the community.

Appears there 'was' something in the equation that wasn't right, and once that ball starts rolling down hill, it's REALLY hard to stop it.

Hope everything gets hammered out in a timely manner to everyone's' satisfaction.

To Gary~ I don't doubt that your intentions were honorable, hopefully your actions to resolve will be as well.
I would caution you though in regard to recent posts offering future down-size trade ins ect.
Again... good intentions not withstanding, when a business is sinking, just keep bailing water to float. Offering future caveats that may or may not happen is just adding water to the boat.

If/when things turn around and you feel you owe someone something more that contractually obligated....THEN make the offer, if business allows.

Making an offer like that now, comes across as weak justification, almost like an 'excuse' for mistakes made...especially to people owed. Make them 'whole', and then apologize with a bonus if possible. From a business stand point, you're offering something you don't currently have and may not be able to come up with...and isn't that kinda how this mess started? Wink


jtnesbitt  (B 30189)

Mar 8, 2011, 7:20 AM
Post #76 of 146 (2950 views)
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From the outside looking in... It looks like Gary is a "nice guy" who tried to bend the rules and go the extra mile for customers. The problem looks like the "nice guy" persona over-took the business needs and it all got into a big mess.

We had to let a guy go a few years back for some legal issues. Later found out he screwed a lot more people than us and the FBI had arrested him. Every time someone found out they would be like "Oh no! Not Bob!? I never would have guessed that because Bob is such a nice guy."

Moral of the story...if someone was an asshole would you do business with them or let them get close enough to you to screw you? Of course not. What about a "nice" guy? That's how conmen work.


pnuwin  (D 112233)

Mar 8, 2011, 3:05 PM
Post #77 of 146 (2856 views)
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Quote:
Moral of the story...if someone was an asshole would you do business with them or let them get close enough to you to screw you? Of course not. What about a "nice" guy? That's how conmen work.

Please don't associate Gary with conmen. Karnage Krew supplied me with my first rig and all my gear several years back. I had no issues. Gary bent over backwards to help me get into the sport. To be completely honest, I don't think I would have done this many jumps and stayed in the sport if he didn't help me with gear and provided his demo rig and payment options.

It's very disappointing what is happening to Karnage Krew and all those affected. Australians get ripped off with outrageous gear prices and Karnage Krew provided much needed competition.

Like many other small businesses that run into trouble, owners sometimes fuck up. I've heard all the rumours about Gary and even if they're all true, it doesn't change the fact that Karnage Krew had some great ideas and helped many skydivers. I'm not defending any of Gary's actions here but I do think he started out with the right intentions.

Not everyone will solve their small business challenges. Sounds like Gary has fucked up big time and is paying the price. It's very sad that many creditors are also affected. Big financial institutions have failed in the past with significantly more money lost and people affected. Conmen let businesses fail but still receive million dollar bonuses and drive a Porche.


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Mar 8, 2011, 5:39 PM
Post #78 of 146 (2824 views)
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In reply to:
Australians get ripped off with outrageous gear prices and Karnage Krew provided much needed competition.

I'd rather pay outrageous prices and get something than pay for a cheap rig and get nothing.


pnuwin  (D 112233)

Mar 8, 2011, 5:56 PM
Post #79 of 146 (2814 views)
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Quote:
Quote:
In Reply To
Australians get ripped off with outrageous gear prices and Karnage Krew provided much needed competition.

I'd rather pay outrageous prices and get something than pay for a cheap rig and get nothing.

Me too, but having competition at least keeps the other dealers in check. I know at least one other Australian dealer who copied Karnage Krew's gear bundles and lowered their prices in response to the competition.


Rigless

Mar 9, 2011, 7:01 AM
Post #80 of 146 (2710 views)
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Re: [pnuwin] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Besides the gear / money theft from the people who ordered and never received what I also do not tolerate at all is lying and avoidance and that's what he is doing for a long while now..

Prosecution should be in order now.


jtnesbitt  (B 30189)

Mar 9, 2011, 7:14 AM
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I apologize if i offended you and your relationship with gary. I do however see this thing happen all the time. In my opinion however someone being negligent is someone being negligent, even if it's due to ignorance. I am sorry, and I am sure he is a nice guy, but i saw warning flags over 2 years ago when he was selling canopies far below what everyone else was. Margins like that just arent sustainable in the long run and that is not a business I would do business with. Many people saw this coming for a long time.

I am sure Gary is a nice guy, but his ignorance/negligence cost a lot of people a lot of money. You say him getting you gear helped you get into the sport. What would have happened if you invested in a full set up and then never got it? Would you have been able to continue? Because thats where a lot of people are right now.


pnuwin  (D 112233)

Mar 9, 2011, 3:24 PM
Post #82 of 146 (2624 views)
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Quote:
I am sure Gary is a nice guy, but his ignorance/negligence cost a lot of people a lot of money. You say him getting you gear helped you get into the sport. What would have happened if you invested in a full set up and then never got it? Would you have been able to continue? Because thats where a lot of people are right now.

Make no mistake, I'm NOT defending any of Gary's actions. When talking to those involved at my dropzone I've put myself in their shoes. I could have just as easily been one to lose money as well. I don't know Gary well enough to say he's a nice guy. However, I can say that Gary never went into business with the intention to fail. Ignorance, negligence, personal make up and lack of discipline will contribute to that.

The fact that so many people are owed money and gear now makes it irrelevant how well Karnage Krew did in the past. People and businesses will always be known by their last actions, especially when things go wrong.

I just wanted to point out that people weren't sucked in by a complete con. There was once a business with the right intentions, with good ideas and with successful deals. I'm very sorry for all those having issues now.


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Mar 10, 2011, 1:09 PM
Post #83 of 146 (2499 views)
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In reply to:
I don't know Gary well enough to say he's a nice guy.

I didn't know him very well but having met Gary face to face I can assure you he definitely came across as a pretty cool guy.
I think that's partly how he managed to get himself so far into the hole - whilst everyone was sick of his constant excuses I think most people who met him thought that eventually, one day, the gear would be there. Well, once they'd given over their money I guess there wasn't much choice. So they believed all his lies because it was easier than accepting the alternative - I suspect he even believed them himself. 'Denial isn't just a river in Egypt'...

Honestly I could still believe that he may one day pay off his debts. But in the meantime, a lot of people are going to have to source a rig from elsewhere.






fprista

Mar 20, 2011, 1:00 PM
Post #86 of 146 (2074 views)
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Sorry but I disagree with you! I've also purchased a complete rig to Gary and 10 moths after he sent me everything but the main canopy!! All good quality but I was a bit annoyed with the time he took!!!
But not happy at all with the fact that the main canopy wasn't in there with the delivery! Since then it has been a series of lame excuses and lies and 6 months after I'm still waiting for a canopy!
If things that Gary said were true I would have by now 2 canopies with me!!! How many do I have? NONE. I just don't know what happens to the parcels that Gary sends that suddenly disappear?


Rigless

Mar 20, 2011, 5:50 PM
Post #87 of 146 (2015 views)
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Yeh and there's a funny trend of mainly mainly main canopies disappearing / not being delivered / lost...

Same here, I got my container + reserve, but no canopy, even while talkin through NZaero trying to get him to send it to them so they could send me it directly themselves, but again the canopy got "lost" during shipping..

I hope Gary gets what he deserves.
























andreeb77  (D License)

Mar 28, 2011, 10:08 AM
Post #99 of 146 (1325 views)
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Could the moderators please tidy up this mess. Up until now this thread was (more or less) on the point. Crazy


Bildo  (A License)

Apr 25, 2011, 6:07 AM
Post #100 of 146 (986 views)
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I've been watching this thread for a while now. I paid a deposit, came across this thread, ignored it after nothing happened for a while and then came across it again once I found out I'd just lost over 8 grand on a rig....

This was one big failure from the beginning, unfortunately it took a while to finally crash, instead of a few short months like it should have.






Bildo  (A License)

Apr 25, 2011, 7:42 PM
Post #103 of 146 (1916 views)
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My understanding is that there are a few people who are trying to take him to court.

I am considering the option, as is a friend of mine.
For this to have any chance, we need everyone directly affected by him so we can lodge a case together. Numbers always make the case stronger.

What do we hope to get out of this? Well I know we'll get nothing because he has (apparently) jack shit.

But I might get some kind of satisfaction that the Australian justice system isn't entirely f*&$%d.

I started a new job, moved away from home, family and friends for more money to fund this rig. Whilst there I had my house broken into, had possessions stolen, had my bike stolen and been violated.

Many of these things were going to be sold to or used as collateral to fund my rig. The mountains I moved, the promises I made and the assistance I received from locals to make a dream of mine come true, only to have this grub take everything of mine (literally) and then ask for more and keep giving lame ass excuses.

So what I'm after is for some way to justify what I lost was worth it. Unfortunately he won't go to jail, he will get a two year suspended sentence with a parole period of 18 months following, but it will be better than him having a good time enjoying the spoils of my money.


Rigless

Apr 25, 2011, 9:37 PM
Post #104 of 146 (1884 views)
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In reply to:
Posting the address from an anonymous username in the hope that someone else will actually do something with it based on nothing more than your word is the height of cowardice on your part and would be the height of stupidity on someone elses.

I'm pretty sure the police know where he lives...

I really really doubt you'd be saying the same thing if you'd lost 2 - 8.5 $ grand.. Pirate

To the person who gave out the address - good step in the right direction, we need all the info we can get..




Emu

Apr 26, 2011, 1:25 AM
Post #106 of 146 (1848 views)
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This bring me some level of relief knowing that Gary spent the money and didn't squander it on something like gambling.... Hookers and blow are legit business expenses.


Bildo  (A License)

Apr 26, 2011, 2:16 AM
Post #107 of 146 (1830 views)
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The problem with painting his address all over the internet is you make yourself a target if something were to happen to him, e.g. Gary gets murdered, you may have given someone the opportunity to perform a crime.

Also it is encouraging people to go to his place to 'sort out business' affecting the 'people' that may be in the process of coming to some sort of an agreement with him....

Plus it's just plain petty bullshit that a two year old would do, have some balls and face up. Don't lower yourself to his level, because he'll beat you with experience.


Rigless

Apr 26, 2011, 2:22 AM
Post #108 of 146 (1826 views)
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I'm not saying everyone should break into his apartment with baseball bats with nails and try to sort this the old fashioned way...

I'm just saying it's a good thing that someone is providing an address..

As far as I understand, beforehand nobody knew where he was hiding? So why's this a bad thing?




Bildo  (A License)

Apr 26, 2011, 4:55 AM
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!
Allow me to elaborate on this. Anyone who has had their house broken into, or had a possession stolen will understand the sickening feeling that comes with such an event.

In my case, it upset me more than when my Grandmother died, and she was my ENTIRE world, until I found skydiving.

So I pretty much started a COMPLETELY new life to fund this hole left from her death, only to once again have my world completely and utterly destroyed again.

So yes, I felt violated, it felt like I had been raped of my chance to once again be happy.

It would be all to easy to take matters into my own hands and see that he can never walk or talk again, but I'm not going to jail for that scum piece of dirt.


Rigless

Apr 26, 2011, 5:02 AM
Post #111 of 146 (1789 views)
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I had to drop my studies, move to a different country and work a shit job in order to pay off the rig..

The only difference is that I'm a bit more lucky, I got my container + reserve, but no main canopy, so I only got partially fucked, but hey 2000 $ is not just some pennies and I feel screwed up pretty much the same as the people who lost their entire rigs!

One thing I learned hard, never trust DZ.com and their reviews of "good and bad" deals. PiratePiratePirate


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Apr 26, 2011, 7:47 AM
Post #112 of 146 (1713 views)
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Quote:
As far as I understand, beforehand nobody knew where he was hiding?

And yet, still nobody knows where he is "hiding". We do know, however, the address and appearance of the bungalow where someone with a boat in the driveway lives, because an anonymous asshole posted the info online.

Is that Gary's bungalow? I don't know. What I do know is that it is not only incredibly childish to post this information online, it will probably constitute sufficient cause for prosecution if anything malicious happens at that home and/or to the people who live there.

Frankly I'm very surprised the mods haven't removed the post. Seems to me, given their strict axe-weilding ways, they would have removed that potentially injurious posting soon after it was published.

I feel badly for those who were ripped off by KK and Gary, but keep it in the courts where it belongs.

Unstable7, you're not just an anonymous asshole moron. You're just a garden variety asshole moron.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Apr 26, 2011, 8:41 AM
Post #113 of 146 (1682 views)
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In reply to:
I had to drop my studies, move to a different country and work a shit job in order to pay off the rig..

And who forced you to do this? You made some bad choices live with it and move on.

Sparky


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Apr 26, 2011, 8:51 AM
Post #114 of 146 (1673 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I had to drop my studies, move to a different country and work a shit job in order to pay off the rig..

And who forced you to do this? You made some bad choices live with it and move on.

Sparky

The OP is not complaining about their life choices. They are just saying that they have an tremendous intrinsic value attached to the funds that they were cheated out of.

classifying one's choices as bad is an extremely subjective thing to do.


Rigless

Apr 26, 2011, 8:59 AM
Post #115 of 146 (1666 views)
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In reply to:
The OP is not complaining about their life choices. They are just saying that they have an tremendous intrinsic value attached to the funds that they were cheated out of.

classifying one's choices as bad is an extremely subjective thing to do.

Pretty much what likestojump said.

Overall I'm not complaining about my life choices, nobody forced me yes, but it's a huge bummer that I and a lot of others had to go through similar things just to be screwed in the end...


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 26, 2011, 9:20 AM
Post #116 of 146 (1639 views)
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...to take matters into my own hands and see that he can never walk or talk again, but I'm not going to jail for that scum piece of dirt.
Then don't get CAUGHT! AngelicSly


Bildo  (A License)

Apr 27, 2011, 5:24 AM
Post #117 of 146 (1529 views)
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Anyway, to try and keep this post relatively on topic before it gets completely pulled.

If you in AUS, pref SYD way, and been hard done by, PM me....


dorkitup

Apr 27, 2011, 8:51 PM
Post #118 of 146 (1416 views)
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To Gary aka KKrew:
Since you've stolen from skydivers, I will share the ancient wisdom of the steps to restore your reputation in the skydiving world:
1 - Go take a vacation in south africa for a while
2 - Get job at sunpath
3 - Test new reserve container and get new TSO on their dime.
4 - When sunpath gets pissed, quit and open gear manufacturing shop with your shiny new TSO'd rig.
5 - Sell rigs and teach rigging.

Follow these steps and you will soon be loved again.

Angelic


Bootneck1

Apr 27, 2011, 10:15 PM
Post #119 of 146 (1390 views)
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Good to see Gary's back online under a new identity....cheers Sparky, top bloke.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Apr 27, 2011, 10:30 PM
Post #120 of 146 (1381 views)
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In reply to:
Good to see Gary's back online under a new identity....cheers Sparky, top bloke.[/reply

Was this directed to me????

Sparky




mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 1, 2011, 1:39 AM
Post #122 of 146 (1167 views)
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In reply to:
Clearly not as sharp in the mind as you are sharp in the tongue.

What pains me sparky is skydivers not getting behind other jumpers when something like this happens. Yeah sure the majority do, but there's always the element of bottom feeders that trawl these forums looking to feed off others' misfortunes.

It probably makes you feel superior in intelligence to berate those who have lost cash from this inept dealer sparky, but I see no reason why a community minded jumper would get online and have a go at those that have lost out. This doesn't happen in any other sport I'm a part of and I'm amazed by what I've seen come out here.

You clearly have nothing to add to this thread so do us all a favour and pest around some other thread that interests you more than that short, sharp boost of self-esteem you get when you lay a boot into the downtrodden.

That is all.

More anonymous remarks from the peanut gallery.

Sparky




Bildo  (A License)

May 1, 2011, 11:35 PM
Post #124 of 146 (1045 views)
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Since no one else has come forward on being touched up I see no point in pursuing it.

I'm in the market for a complete rig with a 160-170 main.
average size/weight male.

Willing to spend 3k. Who can help out?
Im in NSW, AUS.


virgin-burner

May 2, 2011, 3:04 AM
Post #125 of 146 (1013 views)
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send it to my girlfriends bank-account, i can get a good deal for you! Tongue

sorry, couldnt resist.. Unimpressed


baign32  (D 2173)

May 2, 2011, 6:42 PM
Post #126 of 146 (2309 views)
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In reply to:
Since no one else has come forward on being touched up I see no point in pursuing it.

I'm in the market for a complete rig with a 160-170 main.
average size/weight male.

Willing to spend 3k. Who can help out?
Im in NSW, AUS.

I bought a new rig from the US and was lucky enough to have some FF points to hand carry it back over. There's lots of good deals in the US now with the AU$ being so strong. I think you will have a hard time finding something decent for 3K especially as you'll need an AAD to go with it for jumping in Australia. I do wish you the best of luck though.


baign32  (D 2173)

May 2, 2011, 6:50 PM
Post #127 of 146 (2301 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Since no one else has come forward on being touched up I see no point in pursuing it.

I'm in the market for a complete rig with a 160-170 main.
average size/weight male.

Willing to spend 3k. Who can help out?
Im in NSW, AUS.

I bought a new rig from the US and was lucky enough to have some FF points to hand carry it back over. There's lots of good deals in the US now with the AU$ being so strong. I think you will have a hard time finding something decent for 3K especially as you'll need an AAD to go with it for jumping in Australia. I do wish you the best of luck though.

That being said I would suggest keeping an eye out on the used gear listed on the APF web site.


Bildo  (A License)

May 3, 2011, 6:23 AM
Post #128 of 146 (2216 views)
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Re: [baign32] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been trawling every possible facet of the sport imaginable!

There are a few good deals from across the ditch that I have my eyes on, and the only way I'd buy from the states is if it was brand new. There is no way in hell I'd buy second hand from the sates, the chances of getting ripped off are just too high and being touched once all ready is MORE than enough.

Unless someone wrote a contract which clearly states they are liable if the item is not as described.


piisfish

May 3, 2011, 6:34 AM
Post #129 of 146 (2206 views)
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waw, with such an attitude, people will be happy not to sell you gear...


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 3, 2011, 6:42 AM
Post #130 of 146 (2201 views)
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Quote:
There is no way in hell I'd buy second hand from the sates, the chances of getting ripped off are just too high

Check with Mike from Chutingstar, I know he used to de escrow/inspection services for private individuals looking to sell gear. Sellers ship gear to him, he inspects gear and if it passes, notifies the buyer and holds the gear awaiting payment. Once he recieves the money, he'll ship the gear and forward the money to the seller. I'm not sure if he ships international or not, but it's worth a check.

Paul, known as 'Likestojump' on DZ.com does a ton of used gear sales, and a good portion of it is international. He has a good reputaion, and I know him peronsally as he lives 20 min across town from me. He's a good guy to deal with, and I wouldn't make that reccomendation unless I knew him personally. Others will back that up based on dealing with him, but I make it based on knowing him for years.

You could also contact the big gear dealers in the states, they often times have good used gear in stock. Square One and the Sunshine Factory come to mind, both have benn in business for 15 or 20 years, and are safe to deal with.

It's entirely possible to buy used gear internationally and be safe. The problem with Gary was that the deals were too good to be true. If you're dealing with a person or business with a good reputation, and looking to make a 'fair' deal, it can be done. If someone has the 'deal of the century', but it's across the world and they want you to wire money into their girlfriends account, then you might have a problem. Even if the dealer is local and the price is too good to be true, that's another sign that you might want to be cautious.

Shoot likestojump a PM, tell him what you're looking for, and see if he has anything for you.


Skybear

May 3, 2011, 6:51 AM
Post #131 of 146 (2194 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

+1 for Paul. I bought a used canopy from him and made a good deal. Thanks again!


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

May 3, 2011, 8:40 AM
Post #132 of 146 (2151 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
There is no way in hell I'd buy second hand from the sates, the chances of getting ripped off are just too high

Check with Mike from Chutingstar, I know he used to de escrow/inspection services for private individuals looking to sell gear. Sellers ship gear to him, he inspects gear and if it passes, notifies the buyer and holds the gear awaiting payment. Once he recieves the money, he'll ship the gear and forward the money to the seller. I'm not sure if he ships international or not, but it's worth a check...

Paul, known as 'Likestojump' on DZ.com does a ton of used gear sales, and a good portion of it is international. He has a good reputaion, and I know him peronsally as he lives 20 min across town from me. He's a good guy to deal with, and I wouldn't make that reccomendation unless I knew him personally. Others will back that up based on dealing with him, but I make it based on knowing him for years.

You could also contact the big gear dealers in the states, they often times have good used gear in stock. Square One and the Sunshine Factory come to mind, both have benn in business for 15 or 20 years, and are safe to deal with.

It's entirely possible to buy used gear internationally and be safe. The problem with Gary was that the deals were too good to be true. If you're dealing with a person or business with a good reputation, and looking to make a 'fair' deal, it can be done. If someone has the 'deal of the century', but it's across the world and they want you to wire money into their girlfriends account, then you might have a problem. Even if the dealer is local and the price is too good to be true, that's another sign that you might want to be cautious.

Shoot likestojump a PM, tell him what you're looking for, and see if he has anything for you.

(Bolding mine)

+1 on Chutingstar. Escrow is free, inspections are reasonably priced.

It is possible to purchase safely, if you are careful.
Use a bit of common sense, make sure the seller understands you are gun-shy after being burned, and don't be afraid to walk away from any deal that smells at all funny.

Most legit sellers should be willing to do an escrow deal with a reputable dealer. If not, then you should wonder what they are hiding.

Search "rigger as escrow" to find more details on how this is done.
Or just shoot an e-mail out to Chutingstar. They were very prompt in their responses, and very patient and helpful in answering my stupid questions.


baign32  (D 2173)

May 3, 2011, 4:04 PM
Post #133 of 146 (2060 views)
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Re: [Bildo] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been trawling every possible facet of the sport imaginable!

There are a few good deals from across the ditch that I have my eyes on, and the only way I'd buy from the states is if it was brand new. There is no way in hell I'd buy second hand from the sates, the chances of getting ripped off are just too high and being touched once all ready is MORE than enough.

Unless someone wrote a contract which clearly states they are liable if the item is not as described.

Remember that if you do have something shipped out to Australia customs will stick you with GST (10%) plus import duty. In the case of the new rig I purchased recently the total tax bill would have been equal to a round trip ticket.


Squeak  (E 1313)

May 3, 2011, 4:34 PM
Post #134 of 146 (2042 views)
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Re: [baign32] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I've been trawling every possible facet of the sport imaginable!

There are a few good deals from across the ditch that I have my eyes on, and the only way I'd buy from the states is if it was brand new. There is no way in hell I'd buy second hand from the sates, the chances of getting ripped off are just too high and being touched once all ready is MORE than enough.

Unless someone wrote a contract which clearly states they are liable if the item is not as described.

Remember that if you do have something shipped out to Australia customs will stick you with GST (10%) plus import duty. In the case of the new rig I purchased recently the total tax bill would have been equal to a round trip ticket.
When did customs start imposing import duty, I have been buying gear from OS for 9 years and never once charged import duties


baign32  (D 2173)

May 3, 2011, 5:57 PM
Post #135 of 146 (2018 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I've been trawling every possible facet of the sport imaginable!

There are a few good deals from across the ditch that I have my eyes on, and the only way I'd buy from the states is if it was brand new. There is no way in hell I'd buy second hand from the sates, the chances of getting ripped off are just too high and being touched once all ready is MORE than enough.

Unless someone wrote a contract which clearly states they are liable if the item is not as described.

Remember that if you do have something shipped out to Australia customs will stick you with GST (10%) plus import duty. In the case of the new rig I purchased recently the total tax bill would have been equal to a round trip ticket.
When did customs start imposing import duty, I have been buying gear from OS for 9 years and never once charged import duties

I know when I looked into having my rig shipped out the ATO/Customs web site indicated import duty on top of GST - it scarred the shit out of me. It appears you have 1st hand experience dealing with them and I'm glad to hear that this isn't the case :-)


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

May 3, 2011, 6:11 PM
Post #136 of 146 (2010 views)
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Re: [Bildo] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Try contacting Rory Hatchett at Precision Rigging. He may be able to help you out.

Or if you're worried about getting burnt again (which is probably unlikely) get things one at a time from the US (start with the reserve or the AAD).

I can only imagine how angry and frustrated you are at the point. I had enough trouble getting second hand gear together under normal circumstances, let alone being ripped off in these circumstances.


tayra

May 3, 2011, 7:02 PM
Post #137 of 146 (1991 views)
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Re: [baign32] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I recently contacted customs about it and essentially anything related to skydiving is free from the 5% customs duty


noidea  (A License)

May 25, 2011, 4:21 AM
Post #138 of 146 (1825 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeh mate that sounds about right I am in the same boat as all the others 9k (incl taxes) paid in full for a new rig and use of a demo until it arrived... no demo and certainly no rig. I found out via the manufacturer as Gary was never going to let me know that at the time my rig was due to be finished the order had been on hold for 3 months +

Now not being able to contact Gary at all and being left completely in the dark he deserves no trust/respect/consideration in any forum. I am now jumping through all the hoops to try to get a resolution in my favour not being helped by Gary being 'invisible'.

I was very patient with Gary as he tried to explain his way out of what was going on and now it seems he was just trying to buy time. My patience has run out and he has potentially ruined a trip to the states for much jumping coming up in august. (6 months after the original due date for the new rig)

Nice work Gary and thanks for the welcome to the fantastic world of skydiving...Mad If anyone knows his number or whereabouts please pm me or reply.


sasslife  (Student)

May 30, 2011, 6:12 AM
Post #139 of 146 (1663 views)
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Re: [noidea] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

When i dealt with the above mentioned i refused to pay cash and would only pay via CC to the manufacturer.
Something didnt seem right!

I got to the states and found two rigs (one was mine the other i had no clue what it was for) and i emailed him and he asked what was the other rig and he responded it must have been a mistake made by UPT. Well convienently the rig sent was going to an address in northern england (some univeristy or some shit.. Cant really remember) so i offered to bring it with me to avoid import duty etc. Well we didnt have the additional baggage so i was forced to buy a hard case and pay additional baggage and i was promised all would be re-imbursed. I got the rig into the UK without any tax and it was sitting on my floor for a couple of months. I sent an email telling him the rig can sit on my floor however if it was stolen or something happens to it then i would not be responsible. HE returned with the telephone number of the owner. I called the owner who refused to come and get it from london because he had pre-paid postage with KK. I then had to take a morning off work and send it recorded and insured to northern england(at my own expense) witht he promise the money would be re0imbursed.. none of the money came through and this was two years ago. Im still waiting on my gatorz and my shirts by the way mate. You know who i amWink

All in all my dealings were quite good. Always responding to questions etc. If it werent for this i would pobably order through him again to be honest. I feel for those that lost but he was workig on paper margins and using new orders to satisfy accounts with suppliers for historical orders. IT was bound to colapse eventually.


spencer  (D 208)

May 31, 2011, 11:00 AM
Post #140 of 146 (1498 views)
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Re: [bigway] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Where is this person now, a Dz??, working in McDonalds.
someone must know.


virgin-burner

May 31, 2011, 1:19 PM
Post #141 of 146 (1425 views)
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Re: [spencer] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

caymans, new name, living the life with his customers money..

Unimpressed


NealFitz  (C 106601)

May 31, 2011, 5:59 PM
Post #142 of 146 (1343 views)
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Re: [sasslife] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
. Im still waiting on my gatorz and my shirts by the way mate. You know who i amWink

.

if you get your gatoprz and t shirts let me know im waiting on mine :(


spencer  (D 208)

May 31, 2011, 11:03 PM
Post #143 of 146 (1260 views)
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Re: [NealFitz] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Like they say, new comers leave there brains at the front entrance of a DZ, and there are plenty of people like bigway, sitting on the fences waiting for new prey to enter.
What goes around as they say.


btucker  (E 1974)

Jun 2, 2011, 1:22 AM
Post #144 of 146 (1137 views)
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Re: [spencer] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

On Tuesday, an email was sent to a local mailing list: A report of [alleged] fraud has or will take place soon to the Police. I emailed the point man for this, and he is aware of this thread. Maybe hell provide future updates. Either way, I hope the information here can be usefull.

I'm sorry that I don't have more details I just wanted our international friends to know a small summary of what got posted earlier this week.

I think it really, really sucks to pay for kit and not get it in a timely fashion especially for new jumpers.


Bildo  (A License)

Aug 17, 2011, 4:42 AM
Post #145 of 146 (851 views)
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Re: [btucker] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Well after much pain and suffering, I got some results.

I got in touch with a nice bloke in Melbourne who agreed to a payment plan. 2 months ago it started and as of last week it's now fully paid off.

Yay, I just took ownership of my first rig, bought my second one and it only cost 13 grand!

Thanks Matt! You were awesome!!


Bildo  (A License)

Jan 22, 2012, 2:53 PM
Post #146 of 146 (654 views)
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Re: [Bildo] Dealer Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't suppose anyone has heard if this ugly beast has reared his head??



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