Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Camera Flying

 


skyjunkie517  (B License)

Dec 12, 2010, 7:52 AM
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Camera Flying Can't Post

The SIM says that 200 jumps or a C license is "RECOMMENDED" before flying a camera. My question is - Does the DZ set the minium requirements for jumping a camera? If anyone could give me some info on this subject I would appreaciate it!


gusto77  (C 38461)

Dec 12, 2010, 8:05 AM
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you talking about sticking a go pro to ur helmet and jumpin with it or are you talking about trying to film tandems? (FYI Im not a pro camera guy) I started jumping my go pro around 100 jumps and at my DZ doesn't have any requirements for minimum jump numbers except to refer to the SIM. I havent heard about DZ's having policies for fun jumpers jumping a camera like a go pro or contour... IMO its not a big deal but Im sure Ill get hammered by some Nazis for saying that


skyjunkie517  (B License)

Dec 12, 2010, 8:20 AM
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Re: [gusto77] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Im just flying a GoPro. A person I jump with got an ass chewing for having his RSL still connected while flying a contour. We both have about 125 jumps and we were told by the S&TA that we need to speak with an experienced camera flyer and then report back to him. What I dont understand is if there are no minium requirements set in the SIM who regulates this and by what guidelines?
In reply to:


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 12, 2010, 8:31 AM
Post #4 of 170 (2946 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The SIM says that 200 jumps or a C license is "RECOMMENDED" before flying a camera. My question is - Does the DZ set the minium requirements for jumping a camera? If anyone could give me some info on this subject I would appreaciate it!


The photo forum has a sticky that is called "READ ME that answers this question pretty thoroughly. Failing that, SEARCH will yield more than 1000 results.

Taking advice on attaching a camera from someone who doesn't respect the recommendations and where they came from may be hazardous to your (or other's) health.


skyjunkie517  (B License)

Dec 12, 2010, 8:38 AM
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Re: [DSE] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Im not saying that I am "In the right" by any means. I am just trying to find more information on the matter. Thank you for the link.


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 12, 2010, 8:48 AM
Post #6 of 170 (2935 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

USPA sets minimum requirements and recommendations. Dropzones may set their own rules. As soon as you say "just" a gopro, you are missing the point of the 200 jump MINIMUM recommendation. It has nothing to do with the size of the camera. Read that section of the SIM.

Dave


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Dec 12, 2010, 9:19 AM
Post #7 of 170 (2915 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

USPA has made a reccomendation.

DZs can choose to implement that reccomendation, or a different rule (stricter or more lenient).

AND.... fellow jumpers can simply choose not to jump with you if they find your equipment choices are unsafe. This might be done overtly, or simply might be folks quietly jumping with other people instead of with you.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 12, 2010, 10:02 AM
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The SIM says that 200 jumps or a C license is "RECOMMENDED" before flying a camera. My question is - Does the DZ set the minium requirements for jumping a camera? If anyone could give me some info on this subject I would appreciate it!

........................................................................

USPA recommendations are written in BLOOD!

Saving your own life should be second nature before strapping on any complicated gear like cameras or wingsuits or tandem students.

DZs always have the option of setting their own standards, but few DZOs have read USPA's huge statistical data base. Wise DZs set their standards slightly higher than USPA, while uwise DZs set their standards lower than USPA. When a DZ sets its standards lower than USPA, they ignore "best business practices" which means they stand alone in court if anyone gets hurt.

Junior jumpers wearing cameras was proved foolish back in the 1960s.
The debate is not over the size of the camera or the snag risk, but rather over the DISTRACTION.

How many dozen freefall cameramen have died because they fixated on their subject and lost track of altitude?
The only thing that has - changed since the 1960s - is the increased use of AADs.

Why would you want to re-learn a lesson the "bloody way?"


stratostar  (Student)

Dec 12, 2010, 10:11 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh but dude it's only a little go pro.....


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 12, 2010, 11:03 AM
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Im just flying a GoPro.
In reply to:

The size of the fire doesn't matter much when you're rolling around in it.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 12, 2010, 12:52 PM
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I look for that "recommendation" to be changed to a BSR requirement to have at least 200 jumps in the next year or so. I know I have taken a few people aside and told them to leave the cameras on the ground since they don't have the first clue about what they are doing as is and the camera is only making it worse.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 12, 2010, 3:53 PM
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Re: [gusto77] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...IMO its not a big deal but Im sure Ill get hammered by some Nazis for saying that

Consider yourself hammered then.
If you're purposely willing to jeopordize your life AND my life by ignoring recommendations, then yes, consider yourself really, really hammered.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 12, 2010, 4:09 PM
Post #13 of 170 (2735 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I dont understand is if there are no minium requirements set in the SIM who regulates this and by what guidelines?
In reply to:

YOU do. YOU choose to take those recommendations/guidelines to heart or you choose to ignore them. Simple as that.

The smarter ones take heed, the less smart ignore.

The less smart seem to think that those recommendations were simply dreamed up one night around the bonfire. Oh, so sadly mistaken.

The less smart seem to have it that their logic says the recommendations don't make sense. Oh, so sadly mistaken.

The less smart seem to think their Mad Skillz override recommendations. Oh, so sadly mistaken.

Good news: Some DZOs take those recommendations to heart.
Bad news: Some don't.


Some jumpers who choose to ignore recommendations scream about "freedom to do as I want". These are the immature in our midst. They are not mature enough to make good decisions for themselves. We are all free to do what we want...the smarter ones do it with prior knowledge, deep understanding, real skill and a strong sense of safety.


labrys  (D 29848)

Dec 12, 2010, 4:17 PM
Post #14 of 170 (2727 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Right on, Andy.


Ron

Dec 12, 2010, 5:02 PM
Post #15 of 170 (2705 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The SIM says that 200 jumps or a C license is "RECOMMENDED" before flying a camera. My question is - Does the DZ set the minium requirements for jumping a camera? If anyone could give me some info on this subject I would appreaciate it!

The SIM says 200 jumps is a recommendation. It is a damn good recommendation.

Some DZO's and S&TA's follow it as a flat rule, others do not.

In the end it is up to the individual jumper to not die. The individual has to make choices that prevent them from becoming a set of grid coordinates on a DZ.

Everyone likes to think they are above average and will not screw up. But a quick read of the "incidents" section clearly shows that is not the case. Not a single one of the people that have died thought they were not going to be able to handle the situation.... Yet they all still died.

I'll gladly tell you that my first camera jump almost ended up with me getting myself killed. Of course, I thought I was skilled enough that it would not happen, yet it almost killed me anyway.

I hope the USPA makes the 200 jumps before a camera as a BSR that is not waiver-able.

DSE has done a good job in the video forum about listing incidents where a small camera caused problems. Well worth a read.

While reading it, try to understand that each and every individual on that list thought they had the skills to pull it off.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Dec 12, 2010, 7:01 PM
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Re: [Ron] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

To the O P

...Regardless of whether it is a Recommendation.......
OR a BSR.....

It could be wise to consider this...

once a person reaches any such > " Magic Number"..... that alone does Not Automatically Qualify one, to do ANYTHING....

some need twice the number. some ten times the number...ShockedUnimpressed
One reason why "just a # "... should NOT be the determining factor..

with camera(s).. it takes an awful lot MORE....like good judgement, SECOND nature.. flying skills...
( and THAT often takes a ton of jumps...)
an Open Eye and an open Mind, and the ability to not allow our enthusiasm to overshadow our common sense..
It's the type of discipline where,,, at first at least, those who are always at the EDGE of the envelope,,Unsure need not apply.Unimpressed

imo
jmy


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 12, 2010, 8:16 PM
Post #17 of 170 (2613 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What I dont understand is if there are no minium requirements set in the SIM who regulates this and by what guidelines?

Simple answer - the DZO, or his appointed officer, will use their experience and superior knowledge of skydiving to determine what will, or will not, occur at their DZ.

If you don't like it, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.


skycamefalling  (A 58345)

Dec 12, 2010, 8:20 PM
Post #18 of 170 (2610 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont understand why people would choose to and jump with a camera before they are ready. There have been jumps where I would have loved to get footage of. But then I think about it, if I was jumping with a camera and someone were to ask how many jumps I had, I may have not been on those jumps. Also, I think jumping with a camera should be like getting your drivers license, it is a earned privilege and not a right. Enjoy the learning process one step at a time.

Just my .02


brucet7  (C 38954)

Dec 12, 2010, 8:32 PM
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems everyone is in such a hurry to fly with a camera. While they are cool and I like seeing myself on other people's cameras, I figure a camera is 10 to 20 jumps.
Frankly, I need the practice and experience more than showing other people what they look like in the air. Angelic


KevinP  (Student)

Dec 12, 2010, 8:35 PM
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Re: [Ron] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm kinda late to this (and really inexperienced), but what's wrong with asking an experienced camera dude to jump with you and video/photo you? Seems safer. How much would it cost? Seems like I have read that some camera qualified dude will do it for the cost of their ticket and a nominal extra kick. I would love to fly a camera and one day film tandems, but my patience (and self-preservation) overrides that desire when I think of killing someone due to inexperience.

Just my .02. And that's probably about what it's worth, but there it is.


almeister112  (D 31305)

Dec 12, 2010, 9:05 PM
Post #21 of 170 (2580 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

As a 250-jump wonder, I figured I'd toss my 2 cents' worth in, too.

I've been reading the forums since I got my license last January, and I've seen the arguments about GoPros time and again. So I decided, as I've done pretty much every step of the way, to play it safe. I got a GoPro around jump 205 or so and spent half a day doing hop-n-pops with it to make sure it wasn't a snag hazard. Then I ended up taking it on some jumps, and it's been fine.

Would I have been fine strapping it on earlier? Probably. But I always assume that the people making the recommendations know a helluva lot more about what they're talking about than I do, and I'm really glad I waited to jump a camera as long as I did. It wasn't a big deal when I got it since I was used to being altitude aware, keeping track of where people were tracking, etc. I plan to be jumping for years, so I'm in no hurry to kill myself trying everything now.


pilot-one  (D 30000)

Dec 12, 2010, 9:30 PM
Post #22 of 170 (2566 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Im not saying that I am "In the right" by any means. I am just trying to find more information on the matter. Thank you for the link.

All you have to do is talk to Paul (DZO of SSM) since he sets the rules where you are jumping.
Also when a substantially more experienced jumper says you should have your RSL disconnected you should check into it before ignoring the advice.

'nuf said


skycamefalling  (A 58345)

Dec 12, 2010, 9:31 PM
Post #23 of 170 (2566 views)
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Re: [almeister112] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I am suprised that with all of the threads talking about Gopros on this forum, there is not a way that people who put the word Gopro in there title, that it will redirect them to a page that has all of the other threads on that camera. That way, we wont have to read any more threads about the Gopro. We would all be sparedWink.......

There, problem solved. Lock this thread up nowTongue


(This post was edited by skycamefalling on Dec 12, 2010, 9:33 PM)


pilot-one  (D 30000)

Dec 12, 2010, 9:39 PM
Post #24 of 170 (2557 views)
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Im just flying a GoPro. A person I jump with got an ass chewing for having his RSL still connected while flying a contour. We both have about 125 jumps and we were told by the S&TA that we need to speak with an experienced camera flyer and then report back to him. What I dont understand is if there are no minium requirements set in the SIM who regulates this and by what guidelines?
In reply to:

Here's another link for you guys to read too:
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread


champu  (D 28302)

Dec 12, 2010, 10:18 PM
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, go pros... you do realize how dorky those things look right?

By the way, another thing I've noticed when it comes to <insert thing people tell you to wait to do> is that people who fast track their way through all the toys tend to fast track their way to being burnt out on the sport too. If you want to get better or, dare I say, good at anything you should be prepared to set goals that extend hundreds of jumps out.
Attachments: go_pros.jpg (65.2 KB)


krisco  (C 3244)

Dec 13, 2010, 7:22 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What I dont understand is if there are no minium requirements set in the SIM who regulates this and by what guidelines?
In reply to:

YOU do. YOU choose to take those recommendations/guidelines to heart or you choose to ignore them. Simple as that.

The smarter ones take heed, the less smart ignore.

The less smart seem to think that those recommendations were simply dreamed up one night around the bonfire. Oh, so sadly mistaken.

The less smart seem to have it that their logic says the recommendations don't make sense. Oh, so sadly mistaken.

The less smart seem to think their Mad Skillz override recommendations. Oh, so sadly mistaken.

Good news: Some DZOs take those recommendations to heart.
Bad news: Some don't.


Some jumpers who choose to ignore recommendations scream about "freedom to do as I want". These are the immature in our midst. They are not mature enough to make good decisions for themselves. We are all free to do what we want...the smarter ones do it with prior knowledge, deep understanding, real skill and a strong sense of safety.

Awesome! Nicely said..


labrys  (D 29848)

Dec 13, 2010, 6:55 PM
Post #27 of 170 (1149 views)
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Re: [KevinP] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How much would it cost? Seems like I have read that some camera qualified dude will do it for the cost of their ticket and a nominal extra kick.

That's really the "worst case" at most DZs I've been to. I know that at my home DZ, there are many "camera qualified" up jumpers who seek out novice jumpers to jump with and pay their own slots.

They don't do it every load, but they do it a significant percentage of loads.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 13, 2010, 11:37 PM
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Re: [champu] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ah, go pros... you do realize how dorky those things look right?

By the way, another thing I've noticed when it comes to <insert thing people tell you to wait to do> is that people who fast track their way through all the toys tend to fast track their way to being burnt out on the sport too. If you want to get better or, dare I say, good at anything you should be prepared to set goals that extend hundreds of jumps out.

+1 Well put. They get past being a tourist.

Sparky


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 15, 2010, 1:36 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I look for that "recommendation" to be changed to a BSR requirement to have at least 200 jumps in the next year or so. I know I have taken a few people aside and told them to leave the cameras on the ground since they don't have the first clue about what they are doing as is and the camera is only making it worse.

More rules made for idiots to hold back the competent.

Here in NZ the reccomentdtion is 100 jumps for a camera.

By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps.

It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps.

A S&TA, DZSO or whatever it is called at any gven DZ should have the authority to decide who should and shouldn't jump a camera.

But many of those would rather a rule to make their job easier.

Some are more competent than others, and some are complete dipshits.

Jump numbers have little to do with it.


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 15, 2010, 2:05 PM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

And you would have never survived to 6500 jumps if you had waited till 200? Unfortunately most people think they are competent whether or not it's true. I personally don't think anyone with under 200 jumps is competent to jump a camera. At 200, that's where the S&TA should be deciding whether or not that person is ready. 200 is a decent minimum for competent jumpers, not a point where just anybody should be strapping on a camera.

Just my opinion.

Dave


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 15, 2010, 3:31 PM
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Re: [pilotdave] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And you would have never survived to 6500 jumps if you had waited till 200? Unfortunately most people think they are competent whether or not it's true. I personally don't think anyone with under 200 jumps is competent to jump a camera. At 200, that's where the S&TA should be deciding whether or not that person is ready. 200 is a decent minimum for competent jumpers, not a point where just anybody should be strapping on a camera.

Just my opinion.

That is your opinion because it has been drummed into you.

My View is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience.

I am yet to see any problems with it.

When do you think it is appropriate to be a coach?

Do you think it take more or less skill an judgment to be coaching people or filming them?


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 15, 2010, 3:48 PM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When do you think it is appropriate to be a coach?

Do you think it take more or less skill an judgment to be coaching people or filming them?

Hate to change the subject, but 200 jumps sounds about right to me, based on my experience. Though I had more like 700 when I got my coach rating. I'd completely support upping the coach rating requirements... I think 100 is ridiculously low, and I think it's insane to let someone jump with a student that you wouldn't let jump solo with a camera. I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Dec 15, 2010, 3:49 PM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 15, 2010, 6:05 PM
Post #33 of 170 (930 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I look for that "recommendation" to be changed to a BSR requirement to have at least 200 jumps in the next year or so. I know I have taken a few people aside and told them to leave the cameras on the ground since they don't have the first clue about what they are doing as is and the camera is only making it worse.

More rules made for idiots to hold back the competent.

Here in NZ the reccomentdtion is 100 jumps for a camera.

By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps.

It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps.

A S&TA, DZSO or whatever it is called at any gven DZ should have the authority to decide who should and shouldn't jump a camera.

But many of those would rather a rule to make their job easier.

Some are more competent than others, and some are complete dipshits.

Jump numbers have little to do with it.

Rhys,
Respectfully,
I couldnt disagree with you more. There is no need to rush, I dont care how good you are. You will be just as good at 200 with that much more awareness. Imagine if that wonder 100 jump guy who is so good and ready at 100, how good he will be at 200. It has nothing to do with holding back the competent, it has to do with keeping people alive. and for the record, I enforce the 200 jump BSR or Rule whatever it is called at our DZ. I do not give a rats ass how good they think they are.


Aaron_O  (D 29439)

Dec 15, 2010, 7:08 PM
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Re: [skyjunkie517] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

A camera is a distraction from the the very beginning to the very end of any skydive.
Items may missed during a gear check because of a battery check on your camera. A lift web might be twisted but the jumper is paying more attention to the camera mount while gearing up. A handle is floating but the jumper is double checking that his go-pro is turned on on his way to the door. Get the idea??? It gets worse the further along in the skydive you go.
A camera flyer must have sufficient experience to not only fly by second nature, but skydive by second nature. That comes with lots of experience!! 200 jumps is a minimum recommendation. That's a reasonable number of jumps to warrant an evaluation of one's ability to safely carry a camera on a skydive in my opinion.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 15, 2010, 7:40 PM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That is your opinion because it has been drummed into you.

My View opinions is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience.

No ego in that statement. They are both opinions and there is no reason why yours should trump Dave's

Sparky


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 16, 2010, 12:07 AM
Post #36 of 170 (897 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My View is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience.

I am yet to see any problems with it.

Sounds like you don't get out and around very much if you have yet to see any problems with it. There's a whole world out here...many of us HAVE seen problems with it...directly...up close and personal...and in some cases the aftermath being NOT what one would want to see again...anywhere...at anytime.

Your mileage obviously differs.


brucet7  (C 38954)

Dec 16, 2010, 9:08 AM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

It is said that a smart person learns from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others. Then there are those who know it all and won't learn from anyone. "Let him who has ears listen . . ."


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 16, 2010, 9:50 AM
Post #38 of 170 (827 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet.

Dave

Next time we're in the same room, ask to see my logbook for coaching students. It's roughly a 30% unsuccessful ratio. Unfortunately, there are examiners that "give away" the rating. I'm aware of more than a few coaches that showed up for the course, had breakfast, and left without any classwork and with zero eval jumps.

Coaching and video can often go together, but flying video requires greater mental and physical skill than being a coach. I too, could agree with raising the jump # for the coach rating, particularly if USPA would have a required training program for cameras and/or required experience level.

I believe camera may be a distraction whether you have 100, 200, or 5000 jumps. Having the physical and mental experience (time in sport) to deal with problems is the motivation for the recommended levels of experience.
The sheer volume of this particular subject make sme think that safety is going to keep losing ground over "I wanna fly a lens"


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 16, 2010, 10:28 AM
Post #39 of 170 (818 views)
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Re: [DSE] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I started to reply that coaching takes more mental and physical skill than camera flying, but I started thinking about when I was doing 4-way video for an intermediate team (meaning they move around the sky a whole lot). I flew my butt off, and used every ounce of focus I had to keep them in frame exactly where I wanted. Not that I always succeeded. And keeping my hands out of the frame, not turning my head to look at my altimeter, finding the best light, etc.

But coaching requires you to be able to fly as needed to observe the student, remember what they did, and figure out what to debrief, without thinking about your own flying. In my opinion, you should be able strap a camera to your head and deal with those distractions before you should be jumping with students. You can be an amateur video guy, but as long as you're getting paid as a coach, you're a pro. There's no excuse for crappy coaching, but crappy video is just fine.

Dave


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 16, 2010, 10:48 AM
Post #40 of 170 (809 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel the difference is that as a coach, you don't have a coach saying "she's not doing that right, lemme angle my head to catch that on vid."

It happens, and too often. And that's where the biggest difference lies. Flying as a coach may mean you're a professional beginner, but the coach process, the jumps that coaches are *supposed* to do (but often don't) are there to teach the very skills that a camera flyer needs.
I do believe that coaching is a benefit to becoming a good camera flyer, *if* the coach examiner/evaluator are doing their jobs. there seem to be a few that don't give a damn because after all <sarcasm on> "It's just a coach rating."Unsure
I still shake my head at a C/E who handed a wingsuiter a coach rating with no class time, no eval jumps.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 16, 2010, 2:50 PM
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>By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps.
>It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps.

I knew someone who started doing camera at 10-12 jumps. Made quite a few jumps until he got caught. He did not die. Indeed, you could stick a camera on a first jump student, and 99% of them would survive.

Of course, that's true of a lot of things. You could take out their AAD, get rid of their helmet, cut the FJC to an hour, and the vast majority of new jumpers would still survive their student training.

Fortunately, most instructors have higher standards than that.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 3:46 PM
Post #42 of 170 (762 views)
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In reply to:
Hate to change the subject, but 200 jumps sounds about right to me, based on my experience. Though I had more like 700 when I got my coach rating. I'd completely support upping the coach rating requirements... I think 100 is ridiculously low, and I think it's insane to let someone jump with a student that you wouldn't let jump solo with a camera. I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet.


Cool no need for a tangent, you get the drift.

We are all allowed out differences of opinion, and we all have different rules to go by.

What is considered right, comes down to the opinion and experiences of each individual.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 3:49 PM
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In reply to:
Rhys,
Respectfully,
I couldnt disagree with you more. There is no need to rush, I dont care how good you are. You will be just as good at 200 with that much more awareness. Imagine if that wonder 100 jump guy who is so good and ready at 100, how good he will be at 200. It has nothing to do with holding back the competent, it has to do with keeping people alive. and for the record, I enforce the 200 jump BSR or Rule whatever it is called at our DZ. I do not give a rats ass how good they think they are.

Fair call, but once again;

I have seen many people begin camera at 100 jumps with no problems whatsoever.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 4:04 PM
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In reply to:
Sounds like you don't get out and around very much if you have yet to see any problems with it. There's a whole world out here...many of us HAVE seen problems with it...directly...up close and personal...and in some cases the aftermath being NOT what one would want to see again...anywhere...at anytime.

These are just words, give us some substance...

Show me the idiots that you suppose ruin it for the rest.

This seems like a protective attitude the hinders the growth of your people.

This attitude reminds me of ;

Mothers wiping and cleaning everything with antibacterial wipes and soap to keep things clean for their children. Their children get ill more often. Those that are subject to a little dirt have better immune systems...

If you set the rules for the lowest common denominator, you numb those with aptitude and hinder the growth of the sport as a whole.

Maybe the problem lies with having 100 jump wonders running around being coaches and S&TA's that do not care enough to know what the people at their DZ are doing.

If someone is not ready, then they should not be allowed to jump camera, this could be at 500 jumps.


It seems you believe that I think that everybody with 100 jumps should put a camera on, this could not be further from the truth.

It really comes down to the individual.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 16, 2010, 4:07 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 4:18 PM
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Re: [billvon] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I knew someone who started doing camera at 10-12 jumps. Made quite a few jumps until he got caught. He did not die. Indeed, you could stick a camera on a first jump student, and 99% of them would survive.

Of course, that's true of a lot of things. You could take out their AAD, get rid of their helmet, cut the FJC to an hour, and the vast majority of new jumpers would still survive their student training.

Fortunately, most instructors have higher standards than that

Seriously Bill you need to grow up a little.

You ridicule the system that works elsewhere absolutely fine, and try to make it all out as if It is my choice that it is this way, and try to make a stab (boarder line personal attack).

This is childish and not becoming of a moderator.

The rules in New Zealand have been around since well before I was jumping, and have nothing to do with me.

Do not try to make this a personal thing.

We don't allow people to take tandems until they have at least 1000 jumps.

so our standards are higher in that respect.

The USA is not 'the world' and this is an international forum, I respect that your rules are as they are, but that does not mean that rules that differ in other places are of a lower standard.

Our rules are simply better.Laugh (that was a joke by the way)


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 4:23 PM
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Re: [pilotdave] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I started to reply that coaching takes more mental and physical skill than camera flying, but I started thinking about when I was doing 4-way video for an intermediate team (meaning they move around the sky a whole lot). I flew my butt off, and used every ounce of focus I had to keep them in frame exactly where I wanted. Not that I always succeeded. And keeping my hands out of the frame, not turning my head to look at my altimeter, finding the best light, etc.

One does not need to film 4 way to use a camera.

We had to jump a camera helmet without a camera before we could put the camera in( cameras were big back then), afer a jump or 2 like that we were allowed to put the camera in... then we were only allowed to do 2 ways with them until we could keep it in frame with no problems.

It is an incremental growth, and when you begin, it takes various stages before you have the competence and experience to move to the next level.

If you start with a camera (solo) at 100 jumps you may be able to film 4 way by 300 jumps. if you start at 200, then you may not be able to do 4 way video until 400 jumps...

You have a S&TA for a reason...

USE them.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 16, 2010, 4:25 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 4:26 PM
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In reply to:
It is said that a smart person learns from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others. Then there are those who know it all and won't learn from anyone. "Let him who has ears listen . . ."

And then there are those with inflated egos that think that their way is the only way and anything other than what they are used to is inadequate.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 16, 2010, 4:47 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 16, 2010, 4:45 PM
Post #48 of 170 (724 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
One does not need to film 4 way to use a camera.

That was kind of my point... anyone is allowed to shoot video of anything, no matter the quality. Coaches should be held to a higher standard, like paid video flyers.

Unfortunately in the US, S&TAs have very little power. If someone jumps a camera at 20 jumps, an S&TA doesn't really have the authority to stop them, unless the DZ chooses to give them that power.

Recently we're seeing more and more that people can't follow recommendations on their own... canopy size, cameras, etc. Everyone thinks they're better than average, so the recommendations don't really apply to them. I see no benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras, but we're seeing more and more of them doing it. They rarely take their own skill, currency, or judgment into account. Most that I've seen personally have not read the USPA's recommendations in the first place. That's why I'd support a rule against it. I hope my DZ adopts such a rule in 2011 since I don't think USPA will.

Dave


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 4:53 PM
Post #49 of 170 (720 views)
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In reply to:
Unfortunately in the US, S&TAs have very little power. If someone jumps a camera at 20 jumps, an S&TA doesn't really have the authority to stop them, unless the DZ chooses to give them that power.

There is your problem.

Here what the D.Z.S.O.(our equivalent to your S&TA) says, goes. and the DZSO is answerable the the CI/CSO. (chief Instructor/Chief safety officer).


With the power to ground someone from jumping and the authority to decide whether or not someone is ready or allowed to partake in a certain activity, this removes the need hold back those with aptitude with rules designed for the odd idiot that think they know better.

In reply to:
I see no benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras,

That scratched record is seriously flawed, if you don't see a benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras, you don't see a benefit to anyone jumping a camera.

People like using cameras to document their skydiving, as soon as they can document their (and their buddies'), then the sooner their progression advances faster by being able to analise what they were doing.

Yes you can hire, a camera guy to come and film you but everybody wants to film their jumps themselves.

The benefit is being able to film their jumps, and pretty fucking obvious.

Quite simple I would have thought?


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 16, 2010, 5:01 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 16, 2010, 5:00 PM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is your problem.

Agreed. We wouldn't need blanket rules if we could make good decisions without them. We've proven otherwise, over and over and over.

But still, are your DZSOs consistent? If someone is told they can't jump a camera or a small canopy or a wingsuit or whatever at one dropzone, can they just go to the competition that never says no? That's always been the problem when it comes to leaving decisions up to one person. A blanket rule is much easier to manage. And either way, I'd still support a rule against jumping cameras before 200 jumps. I think its more important than ever as cameras get smaller, cheaper, and in the eyes of many newbies, safer.

Hard to believe there was a day when they had to regulate pull altitudes, now that so many people prefer to pull at 3,500 feet or higher.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Dec 16, 2010, 5:02 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 5:06 PM
Post #51 of 170 (1379 views)
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In reply to:
Agreed. We wouldn't need blanket rules if we could make good decisions without them.

yes we agree there, for sure.

In reply to:
But still, are your DZSOs consistent? If someone is told they can't jump a camera or a small canopy or a wingsuit or whatever at one dropzone, can they just go to the competition that never says no? That's always been the problem when it comes to leaving decisions up to one person. A blanket rule is much easier to manage.

We still have recommendations for most things, such as elliptical canopies, cameras.... The DZSO or CI are answerable for their decisions.

But once again, we do not want to be held back as a whole if there is one wanker, do we?

We will always have one wanker, we are human beings. But that wanker should be answerable for his/her actions and there should be systems in place to make sure it is seen that these type do not continue to hold such power.

In reply to:
I'd still support a rule against jumping cameras before 200 jumps. I think its more important than ever as cameras get smaller, cheaper, and in the eyes of many newbies, safer.

And that is your prerogative.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 16, 2010, 5:07 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 16, 2010, 6:36 PM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitely see your point on some of this stuff...

The blanket rules are meant to cover the masses that unfortunately don't get the long term one on one, that us old farts use to.

It's easier to say 200 jumps seems about right, than to evaluate and train the motivated individual that could likely handle some of this stuff.

That being said, 200 jumps use to be a D license, and back when I got mine, it said 'Expert' on it! Sly

I made my first demo, into a stadium wearing smoke with less jumps than today's A license applicants....was jumping with a 'handheld' 16mm camera before I had 100 jumps, because I was around people every weekend that showed me how to do it right.

I'm guilty too...I won't go on a demo with someone that doesn't hold a PRO rating unless I KNOW them really well.

The right way would be to evaluate and help train if necessary, it's just easier to say get the rating.Wink


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 16, 2010, 7:27 PM
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In reply to:
I made my first demo, into a stadium wearing smoke with less jumps than today's A license applicants....was jumping with a 'handheld' 16mm camera before I had 100 jumps, because I was around people every weekend that showed me how to do it right.

LOL, how times have changed.

Nowdays some people with 200 jumps have only ever dived out of turbines and are too scared to climb out on a Cessna...

bring back static line I say...

The more we pamper people the less competent they become.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 16, 2010, 7:28 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 16, 2010, 10:44 PM
Post #54 of 170 (1334 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Sounds like you don't get out and around very much if you have yet to see any problems with it. There's a whole world out here...many of us HAVE seen problems with it...directly...up close and personal...and in some cases the aftermath being NOT what one would want to see again...anywhere...at anytime.

These are just words, give us some substance...

Would a grave site be substance enough?

Show me the idiots that you suppose ruin it for the rest.
I suppose you suppose I said that

This seems like a protective attitude the hinders the growth of your people.

can't argue with that. It's true in some cases. It also could be just the protection that someone needed to prevent their injury...but of course, we'll never know that...ever.

This attitude reminds me of ;

Mothers wiping and cleaning everything with antibacterial wipes and soap to keep things clean for their children. Their children get ill more often. Those that are subject to a little dirt have better immune systems...

Well, there is that pesky, small issue of life and death here.
.
.
.
Maybe the problem lies with having 100 jump wonders running around being coaches and S&TA's that do not care enough to know what the people at their DZ are doing.

If someone is not ready, then they should not be allowed to jump camera, this could be at 500 jumps.


It would be hard to argue with that!

It seems you believe that I think that everybody with 100 jumps should put a camera on, this could not be further from the truth.

No, Rhys, I do not think that at all. I agree with your basic thought.

It really comes down to the individual.

Yes, it does. The problem is how do you measure that and who is going to do the measurement?

Right now, with the 200-jump recommendation, USPA is on the hook for that.

You raised the question of Coaches and S&TAs...would you be willing to rely on their judgement to say who can fly camera and who can't? Well, yes, in some cases. Some of them DO have some integrity. But also no, in some cases. I would be reluctant to give it a blanket call and put it all in the S&TAs hands.

Hence, the numbers game. Is it perfect? Hell no! I don't think anyone is arguing THAT! It's simply a line in the sand...a foundation, a very general starting point and it all has to do with reasonable safety. 200 jumps for camera flying is not now, nor has it ever been a hard and fast rule. It's only a cloud...with ragged edges. Fortunately, well hopefully anyway, that number is the result of considered opinion, experience and thought by better people than me. I'm good with it.

I question anyone who blindly says 199 jumps - No, 200 jumps - Yes


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 16, 2010, 11:04 PM
Post #55 of 170 (1332 views)
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In reply to:
The blanket rules are meant to cover the masses that unfortunately don't get the long term one on one, that us old farts use to.

It's easier to say 200 jumps seems about right, than to evaluate and train the motivated individual that could likely handle some of this stuff.

...and THAT, my friends, sums it all up in a nutshell.

Unfortunately, that one-on-one is not so common nowadays. Just like the Beer Rules...when is the last time you bought beer to share with your mentors who sat around the bonfire talking skydiving with you?


Ron

Dec 17, 2010, 7:37 AM
Post #56 of 170 (1299 views)
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Quote:
Show me the idiots that you suppose ruin it for the rest.

DSE has created a thread in the video forum.... Start there.

Quote:
If you set the rules for the lowest common denominator, you numb those with aptitude and hinder the growth of the sport as a whole.

Nonsense. Making a person wait another 100 jumps does not "hinder the growth of the sport". And that individual could spend those 100 jumps working on skills like sit flying that could HELP the video later.

Quote:
If someone is not ready, then they should not be allowed to jump camera, this could be at 500 jumps.


It seems you believe that I think that everybody with 100 jumps should put a camera on, this could not be further from the truth.

And you seem to think 100 is enough. But what if someone else thought 5 was enough? What would YOU consider a min standard?

And yes, you do set rules for the lowest common denominator..... And there is a reason for that.


Ron

Dec 17, 2010, 7:54 AM
Post #57 of 170 (1295 views)
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Quote:
That being said, 200 jumps use to be a D license, and back when I got mine, it said 'Expert' on it!

I was joking at the DZ that I should be allowed to speed driving to the DZ since I have a "Master" skydiving license.

One of the group called BS and said that the "D" license was "Expert" not "Master" (It was a joke anyway...But whatev).

So I found my log book and produced a "Master" license. Cool


(This post was edited by Ron on Dec 17, 2010, 7:59 AM)
Attachments: photo.JPG (13.1 KB)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Dec 17, 2010, 8:38 PM
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In reply to:

And you seem to think 100 is enough. But what if someone else thought 5 was enough? What would YOU consider a min standard?

How about 200 jump min OR a 'B' license and passing a camera jump course.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 17, 2010, 10:16 PM
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In reply to:
And you seem to think 100 is enough. But what if someone else thought 5 was enough? What would YOU consider a min standard?

I doubt there is an institution that allows that under thier regulations.

100 jumps is where i was allowed by my regulations to jump with a camera helmet, the camera did not go in untill jump 102.

The canadian regulations allow 50 jumps, south africa 75, so the rules I was subject to are not by any means the minimum available.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 17, 2010, 10:54 PM
Post #60 of 170 (1209 views)
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Re: [Ron] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

http://So I found my log book and produced a "Master" license.

Mine says "Expert". TongueWink

Sparky

http://www.flickr.com/...5637@N06/5270063201/


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 18, 2010, 6:31 AM
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Quote:
100 jumps is where i was allowed

You're a terrible example in this case. As previously stated, rules are made for the lowest commen denomenator, and they're made that way for a reason. If you position a rule or regualtion to target the slightly below average jumper, then the rule will be effective for the mojority of the jumpers out there. The only jumpers the rule will 'fail' are those who are well below average, and in the case of camera flying, we would hope that jumpers in that catagory either choose, or are counciled to, not jump a camera at any level.

Back to you being a terrible example, you went on to complete 6500+ jump, earn instructional ratings, and open a DZ. Time has proven you to be an above average jumper, and your thought process and physical aptitiude are such that you and skydiving are a good 'fit'. If we had the ability to see years and 1000's of jumps in to eberyones future, we could tailor their progression based the skydiver they are going to be, but of course we cannot, so we have everyone follow a baseline which is tailored to the lowest common denomenator, so the majoroty of jumpers will err on the side of caution and ease in to more complex skydives.

It's one of the errors I see frequently with the more 'talented' jumpers at any level. It's clear to everyone (and themsleves) that soemthing about them makes them better at this than other people, yet they continue to use their experienced and progression as an example to others. What you need to do is look to the more average jumpers, and base your ideas of progression on their progress and how they perform as they move along and develop as a skydiver.


Ron

Dec 18, 2010, 8:27 AM
Post #62 of 170 (1156 views)
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Quote:
How about 200 jump min OR a 'B' license and passing a camera jump course.

A good idea. I have always thought proper education can allow a much faster progression.

It would if course depend on the course... AND for it to be a course that held a standard.... But yeah, some guy takes a class from some skilled camera guy that is also a teacher and with good materials and a held standard... I think it would be a good idea.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 18, 2010, 11:40 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're a terrible example in this case. As previously stated, rules are made for the lowest commen denomenator, and they're made that way for a reason.

Now we are delving into personal opinions, and disregarding the history of what is done in countries other than your own.

It is clear that you, and a bunch of other die hard; 'The USPA way is the Best way' advocates, disagree with the administration of skydiving in a number of countries including your neighbours, Canada.

Canada has recently lowered the number from 100 to 50. make you blood boil?

There is a reason they did that, my guess is to advance the progression on the jumpers there.

But I am not going to argue with you about it, you are entitled to beleve what you wish.

Whatever you beleive or say, does not change the fact that the rules are different in other countries and if someone is following the rules of the country and dropzone they belong to, then they are doing no wrong.

It amuses me how difficult it is for so many to comprehend this.

If a US tandem master with 780 jumps shows up at a DZ in NZ or south africa, they will be told to go and get (at least) another 220 jumps before considering transfering thier rating.

Much as a jumper with 150 jumps from NZ with a camera set up thay have jumped a bunch of times will (likely) be asked to make another 50 jumps before using it at many DZ's in the USA.

What is so fucking hard to understand about that?

And what does it have to do with me?

You can turn right at a red light in traffic in the USA and in NZ it is against the law to turn on a red light, ever.

This world is interesting because we have our differences.

In reply to:
The only jumpers the rule will 'fail' are those who are well below average, and in the case of camera flying, we would hope that jumpers in that catagory either choose, or are counciled to, not jump a camera at any level.


With a stetment like that, it appears that there is a serious lack of supervision going on in your realm, that scenario is not likely to happen here. you need the approval of the DZSO to advance your progression.

In reply to:
Back to you being a terrible example, you went on to complete 6500+ jump, earn instructional ratings, and open a DZ. Time has proven you to be an above average jumper, and your thought process and physical aptitiude are such that you and skydiving are a good 'fit'. If we had the ability to see years and 1000's of jumps in to eberyones future, we could tailor their progression based the skydiver they are going to be, but of course we cannot, so we have everyone follow a baseline which is tailored to the lowest common denomenator, so the majoroty of jumpers will err on the side of caution and ease in to more complex skydives.

Unimpressed errrrr, O.K.

Pretty much most jumpers I know in NZ and Aussie have had a similar progression, from jump 1 to jumping camera, but over varying periods of time.

I am not an exception in this example I am the norm, in this part of the world.

Just ask any Australian skydiver or kiwi skydiver you may meet. The fact that I went on to do 1000's of jumps in a handful of years is not uncommon either.

Maybe it is uncommon where you are from, and that is probably why you are having difficulty dealing with this.

In reply to:
It's one of the errors I see frequently with the more 'talented' jumpers at any level. It's clear to everyone (and themsleves) that soemthing about them makes them better at this than other people, yet they continue to use their experienced and progression as an example to others. What you need to do is look to the more average jumpers, and base your ideas of progression on their progress and how they perform as they move along and develop as a skydiver.

Seriously, what a bunch of bullshit.

I you re insulting thousands of people because you want to jump on a high horse. You will find the both Kiwis and Australians are humble and straight forward people. This has nothing to do with Ego or the inability to understand the needs of the less experienced jumpers.

Your attitude towards the subject seems very one sided.

You guys have a very different culture to us, and the differences are shining through in your comments right now, you seem to be unaware of how insulting to so many people the coments you just made were, and how superior in opinion you make yourself out to be.

What ever happened to a difference in opinion?


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 18, 2010, 11:55 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 18, 2010, 12:19 PM
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You guys have a very different culture to us, and the differences are shining through in your comments right now, you seem to be unaware of how insulting to so many people the comments you just made were, and how superior in opinion you make yourself out to be.

What ever happened to a difference in opinion?

...all the people that think they know it all, really piss off those of us who DO! SlyWink


Ron

Dec 18, 2010, 8:58 PM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the thing I find funny. You have said before that your country requires 1000k jumps to be a TI and that you think that is better than the US's 500.... That 1000k is better than 500.But you take the 100% opposite view when it comes to video.... That your country has it right again and the US is wrong again.

Why is 1000 better than 500, but 200 not better than 100????


julio_gyn  (A 705)

Dec 19, 2010, 4:42 AM
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Re: [Ron] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

guys, that is an endless thread. I think if people look back and see how safe are todays equipment, and 30 years ago people used to jump huge cameras and not really safe equipment. All the tecnology used around skydiving can help to modify limits, I have seen a thread where the jumpmaster on another guy first jump had only a few jumps, not enough to complete a todays SL course.... why people don't look at the success and find some other ways to teach and develop knoledge on todays student? I don't care for camera, my target is between rigging and aff, so don't bother wondering I want to change rules to hookup a shit of a gopro on my helmet....


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 19, 2010, 6:00 AM
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Re: [julio_gyn] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

>I think if people look back and see how safe are todays equipment, and
>30 years ago people used to jump huge cameras and not really safe
>equipment.

Agreed. However, the primary risk of a camera is not the weight, size or snag hazard; it is the distraction.

>I have seen a thread where the jumpmaster on another guy first jump
>had only a few jumps, not enough to complete a todays SL course . . .

Right. I started doing SL JM'ing with just over 100 jumps. But the tasks a typical instructor must concentrate on nowadays are a little different; more is expected of an AFF _instructor_ than of a SL _JM_. Really, what we got our $5 a load for was to make sure the SL got hooked up before the student climbed out. The instructor did all the teaching.

And perhaps there's a lesson there for camera flyers. Perhaps that intermediate step (just make sure the SL gets hooked up, help em climb out) could be applied to camera flying. Make 20, 30, 50 jumps _without_ a camera, being in the right spot. Do everything else; the alternate climb out, being where you want to be on the skydive, taking the center on breakoff etc. THEN add the camera.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 19, 2010, 7:45 AM
Post #68 of 170 (1024 views)
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Re: [julio_gyn] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

You are probably thing of this one. That was a long time ago. Both Bill and Tommy are now gone.

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=2216290#2216290

Sparky


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 19, 2010, 9:05 AM
Post #69 of 170 (1011 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's one of the errors I see frequently with the more 'talented' jumpers at any level. It's clear to everyone (and themsleves) that soemthing about them makes them better at this than other people, yet they continue to use their experienced and progression as an example to others. What you need to do is look to the more average jumpers, and base your ideas of progression on their progress and how they perform as they move along and develop as a skydiver.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Seriously, what a bunch of bullshit.

I you re insulting thousands of people because you want to jump on a high horse. You will find the both Kiwis and Australians are humble and straight forward people. This has nothing to do with Ego or the inability to understand the needs of the less experienced jumpers.

Your attitude towards the subject seems very one sided.

You guys have a very different culture to us, and the differences are shining through in your comments right now, you seem to be unaware of how insulting to so many people the coments you just made were, and how superior in opinion you make yourself out to be.

What ever happened to a difference in opinion?

I don't see where you get that from what I said. It's nto my opinion that a guy with 6500+ jumps, instructional ratings and is now a DZO is not an average jumper. Like it or not, want to admit it or not, you are in the upper percentile of jumper achievement.

Maybe you're mistake is that you spend too much time at tandem fatories, where everyone around (who you get to know) has 5, 10, or even 15 thousand jumps, but they are also in the same upper percentile as you in terms of jumper achievement.

The simple fact is that what worked for you may not be a good indicator of what would work for a more average jumper, the same type of jumper you need to tailor rules and regualtions to.

Sure Norm Kent was jumpuing a belly mounted VHS recorder with something under 50 jumps, but as it turned out, Norm Kent is one of the worlds top camera flyers. Something about him and camera flying go together, and unless you have that something, using him as an example is a bad idea.

I'm not trying to appear superior, and in fact all I did was call you superior to the average jumper. I'm also not trying to elevate myself above others, I'm stating a simple fact. One of the biggest problems with regualting progression in skydiving is that you never really know who is ready for what until it's over.

Think you're ready to jump a 79 Velo? You might be, and the only real way to find out is to do it. Put 100 jumps on one, and if you survive, it turns out you were ready. If you kill or injure yourself, maybe not.

The problem is that the risk of being wrong is often much higher than the rewards of being right. If a jumper does push the envelope, and jumps a 79 early on, success means just that the one single jumper has some thrills on their skydives. It creates no benefit to others on the DZ or otherwsie. If the jumper should be wrong, however, the effects can be widespread and dire. People on the DZ who have to witness and deal with an incident, the bad publicity for the DZ, the jumpers family who have to deal with the loss or caring for a crippled relative for the rest of their lives.

Push the limits, and succeed, you make only yourself happy. Push them and fail, you create a negative impact on all the people in your life who care about you. Some simple restraint on your part, some additional experience and training could easily spare your loved ones the heartache.

So we're stuck in this position where you don't really know if anyone is ready for everything until it's over. What we do, in that case, is err on the side of caution, and wait until you're chances for success are really good, and then move forward.

As this applies to you, or me, or any other long time or high-time jumper is that we have proven ourselves to be ready. As it turned out, we did have the skills, knowledge, and ability to handle the choices we made, and we handled them well enough to continue on in the sport, and advance even further. This is the evidence that you or I have whatever 'it' is that you need to be a skydiver.

This isn't insulting to anyone, it's just the way it is. Anyone who would be insulted by that isn't thinking logically and is trying to protect their ego, neither of which is good for skydiving.


julio_gyn  (A 705)

Dec 19, 2010, 9:29 AM
Post #70 of 170 (1004 views)
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Re: [billvon] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Agreed. However, the primary risk of a camera is not the weight, size or snag hazard; it is the distraction.
...
And perhaps there's a lesson there for camera flyers. Perhaps that intermediate step (just make sure the SL gets hooked up, help em climb out) could be applied to camera flying. Make 20, 30, 50 jumps _without_ a camera, being in the right spot. Do everything else; the alternate climb out, being where you want to be on the skydive, taking the center on breakoff etc. THEN add the camera.

could be camera or any other addition on the dive, I think the rules could be changed to make all the progreesion a 'student dependent' thing, IF somebody has all the abilities and prove it to the instructors, a special attention can be spent to teach the right way. a good example is, why let a guy fly a wingsuit with 200 jumps if he is not good tracking????


Scrumpot  (D License)

Dec 19, 2010, 10:39 AM
Post #71 of 170 (1008 views)
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Re: [julio_gyn] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why let a guy fly a wingsuit with 200 jumps if he is not good tracking????

Right. Aren't there still several OTHER pre-requisites (other than JUST raw jump #'s) as well? I think you are assuming that JUST BECAUSE someone has attained 200 jumps, they are automatically "qualified" to jump a WS. - I don't think that is the case. - - - Is it?

I am not a WSI, so you would have to ask one of those, but still - it would be hard for me to believe, from those that I at least know of - that someone showing up on the DZ, with say jump #201 exactly under his belt, is going to necessarily just have a wingsuit just handed to him, and told: "here you go kid, you've earned it ...go on out there and have at it!"

Your analogy therein is flawed.

But then again - I could too still, be completely wrong. - Any wingsuit instructor(s) ...wanna correct me/chime in?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Dec 19, 2010, 10:56 AM
Post #72 of 170 (1002 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Correct, plus actually I don't care all that much about a person's ability to track well.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 19, 2010, 11:22 AM
Post #73 of 170 (997 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am not a WSI, so you would have to ask one of those, but still - it would be hard for me to believe, from those that I at least know of - that someone showing up on the DZ, with say jump #201 exactly under his belt, is going to necessarily just have a wingsuit just handed to him, and told: "here you go kid, you've earned it ...go on out there and have at it!"

Your analogy therein is flawed.

But then again - I could too still, be completely wrong. - Any wingsuit instructor(s) ...wanna correct me/chime in?

I'm not a WSI, only self-appointed WSI#1 has that distinction, and he didn't feel having someone wait til 200 jumps was enough. Ask that guy how his jump went.Mad

If you have 200 jumps and want to fly a wingsuit (and come to me) you're likely going to do a tracking dive with me first unless we've flown together before.
Then we'll do a ground school that isn't terribly different from AFF with some abbreviations (lasts about 45-60 mins). Then we'll go up and jump together assuming all things on the ground went as designed.

The thing is, at 200 jumps, you barely have enough muscle memory to deal with common situations as they occur.
The four states:
Unconsciously Incompetent (you don't know what you don't know)
Consciously Incompetent (You know what you don't know but don't know what to do about it)
Consciously Competent (you know what you're doing, but you have to think about it)
Unconciously Competent (You know what you know, and don't need to think about reacting/responding because it's ingrained/embedded).

At 200 jumps, you might have enough muscle memory to deal with a loss of altitude awareness, spin, person near you at deployment time, or malfunction that ties up the camera/wingsuit.
With very specific training, we can help people become consciously competent fairly quickly. Taking a camera course from Norman Kent when I had 70 jumps helped me grow fast. Spending a lot of time in the tunnel with various camera flyers helped me a lot too. I do believe that with specific, proper, and tightly focused training, people can be properly trained, but this isn't the "norm."
Miltary jumpers are dropping bundles at jump 25, essentially tandem masters at 25 jumps. But their training is very tightly focused in a very tight, specific environment that doesn't translate well into the general skydiving world.
I do not believe that learning basic muscle memory during a camera or wingsuit jump is the proper way to learn, but that's just my opinion. Obviously others disagree.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Dec 19, 2010, 5:48 PM
Post #74 of 170 (958 views)
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Re: [DSE] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In other words, 200 jumps is not just an "automatic qualifier" for WS jumping, about the same as it should not just necessarily be as so for camera flying either. Rather, it is just a minimum threshold, that must be attained - at which time whereby IF as well, - all the OTHER additional required skillsets are also exhibited (or trained) the additional activity can then be started.

I truly don't understand all the consternation of some of the "mad skillz" group subsets. I mean really - IF indeed they do posess all those mad-skillz already, and claim they (supposedly) have obtained them all in a total of sub-200 total jumps, and they feel they are "ready" - BIG DEAL. It really won't be that much longer at all (I mean how many jumps, sub-200, # can you REALLY have attained all the skillz/aptitudes you need?) - - - that they will just SOON ENOUGH get to that 200 # anyway. And heck, as they seem to already assert - when they do, they ARE ready & will be good to go!"

The other side of that though, is again - that the jump # component, just in and of itself is not just stand-alone "automatic qualification". Many jumpers may in fact take even longer/need many more jumps to attain the skillsets needed, ALSO pre-requisite to doing camera or WS jumps. No one is holding back those mad-skillz subset group(s). IF you've (supposedly) got the skillz - fine. Remember too, that NOT ALL 200 # JUMP JUMPERS NECESSARILY JUST AUTOMATICALLY QUALIFY EITHER.

To Julio_gyn: The progression already IS individual "student (ability) dependent". Just get the 200 minimum jumps too is all. I mean really - Big Deal.


TiaDanger  (A 56121)

Dec 19, 2010, 6:06 PM
Post #75 of 170 (951 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Somebody further up the thread suggested having a camera instruction course. Being in the 150 jump range myself with the wish of someday jumping a camera, I think that's a fantastic idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wingsuit instructional courses are on the rise, and aren't there now official 'wingsuit instructors' when there never used to be? And wouldn't you say its been beneficial for people entering winsuiting? Overall, you produce a winsuiter that is now probably safer and better than if they would have gotten spotty guidance from multiple people.

Same goes for camera flying. If there were camera instruction courses, it gives newbies like me a disciplined path to becoming a safe camera flyer. From what I've seen, it can be difficult to single a camera flyer out and become their understudy. They either are too busy working or maybe just frankly don't want to waste jumps or time to teach an infant vidiot.

BUT...if there were a comprehensive video course that teaches safety, body positioning, camera basics, and other techniques, I'd be the first to sign up and pay for that instruction. I would learn much faster doing that than hitting up camera fliers for tips every other jump.

Maybe there already is some camera instruction course out there that I don't know about. If so, disregard this and give me some contact info so I can find it! Wink


(This post was edited by TiaDanger on Dec 19, 2010, 6:07 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 19, 2010, 6:25 PM
Post #76 of 170 (1090 views)
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Re: [TiaDanger] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

~~There are no "official wingsuit instructors. There used to be the Birdman program (defunct when the manufacturer went out of business) and the Phoenix-fly Coach program.
These are manufacturer programs, not "official" USPA or other organizational programs. We've tried to get USPA to recognize the value behind such a program. And yes...the rapid advancement of students in a structured wingsuit program has been fairly obvious.

~~Elsinore has had a structured camera coach program for years. Norman Kent has a structured program as well. There are probably others. However, these are individual courses and not "official" by USPA endorsement.

If USPA could be convinced of the value of an advanced coach rating, then wingsuit instruction and camera training programs would certainly fall under that category. I can think of a double-dozen camera pros that would help develop a syllabus.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2010, 6:04 AM
Post #77 of 170 (1056 views)
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Re: [julio_gyn] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

>could be camera or any other addition on the dive, I think the rules could
>be changed to make all the progreesion a 'student dependent' thing,

1) There's no 'rules' - it's a guideline, not a rule.

2) And they are still jumper dependent. If a jumper is exceptional, heads up, has done all the exits, can control their body, have a wide fall rate range etc. they may well be able to start doing camera at 200 jumps. Some people may take longer.

That's how it works now. The only problem is that some jumpers want to start RIGHT NOW and they don't understand the distractions of camera. So they start thinking that the 200 jump rule is the maximum, not the minimum. "Hey, if anyone can jump a camera at 200 jumps, I can start at 100, because I'm not just anyone!"

>a special attention can be spent to teach the right way. a good example
>is, why let a guy fly a wingsuit with 200 jumps if he is not good
>tracking????

Exactly, and that's why the wingsuit guidelines are 200 jumps ONLY if the person is an exceptional tracker, has compatible gear, is very heads up etc. 500 jumps is a better number for your 'average' jumper.


julio_gyn  (A 705)

Dec 20, 2010, 12:23 PM
Post #78 of 170 (1011 views)
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Re: [billvon] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to have mad skilz, to go fly wingsuit with 50 jumps... I'm a good flier (instructors word) but in my opinion I'm not that good and will take a bit longer to fly something else than my rw jumpwuit.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 21, 2010, 11:29 PM
Post #79 of 170 (930 views)
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Re: [Ron] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here is the thing I find funny. You have said before that your country requires 1000k jumps to be a TI and that you think that is better than the US's 500.... That 1000k is better than 500.

Because that is what I am used to...

My opinion may be different to yours, and we are allowed to disagree, but the rules are the rules.


In reply to:
But you take the 100% opposite view when it comes to video.... That your country has it right again and the US is wrong again.

Because that is what I am used to...

My opinion may be different to yours, and we are allowed to disagree, but the rules are the rules.

In reply to:
Why is 1000 better than 500, but 200 not better than 100????

Because that is what I am used to...

My opinion may be different to yours, and we are allowed to disagree, but the rules are the rules.

Do you see a pattern froming here?


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 21, 2010, 11:33 PM
Post #80 of 170 (927 views)
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Re: [billvon] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1) There's no 'rules' - it's a guideline, not a rule.

Under the USPA maybe, In the other countries such as the ones I have pointed out earlier in this thread, are rules.

I posted those rules.

Did you read them? They are from the operational regulations, which are rules.

In reply to:
2) And they are still jumper dependent. If a jumper is exceptional, heads up, has done all the exits, can control their body, have a wide fall rate range etc. and are in New Zealand, Australia, South Africa or Canada they may well be able to start doing camera at 100 jumps. Some people may take longer. USPA and BPA jumpers will have to wait untill they have 200

There, fixed ot for yaWink

In reply to:
Exactly, and that's why the wingsuit guidelines are 200 jumps ONLY if the person is an exceptional tracker, has compatible gear, is very heads up etc. 500 jumps is a better number for your 'average' jumper.

These are the rules for APF jumpers for jumping a wingsuit, they are not ambiguous reccomendations, they are indeed rules.

Interesting how it is different in different places isn't it. It is important that jumpers from different locations are aware of the rules or recommendations that pertain to them.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 21, 2010, 11:48 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Dec 22, 2010, 7:50 AM
Post #81 of 170 (876 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

But there are other rules from other other sources you choose to ignore, why?

Rules are Rules, right?

Matt


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 22, 2010, 11:49 AM
Post #82 of 170 (837 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But there are other rules from other other sources you choose to ignore, why?

Rules are Rules, right?

Matt

Which rules...?

You'll have to be more concise.

Manufacturer recommendations are not rules, unless the operational regulations you are subject to specify so.

That is all I can imagine you are talking about.

Would you care to clarify, or would you rather remain ambiguous?


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Dec 22, 2010, 12:23 PM
Post #83 of 170 (826 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
But there are other rules from other other sources you choose to ignore, why?

Rules are Rules, right?

Matt

Which rules...?

You'll have to be more concise.

Manufacturer recommendations are not rules, unless the operational regulations you are subject to specify so.

That is all I can imagine you are talking about.

Would you care to clarify, or would you rather remain ambiguous?

No your right on it, except, the Manufacturers Rules are Rules.

You use a SIGMA, and the Manufacturer has stated over and over again, how to use its systems, you have said "No" several times now.

You think 1000 jumps for a Tandem Rating is better than 500. Yet you think 50 jumps enough for a camera.

Then you use a line like "Rules are Rules".

Your a confusing person to understand.

Matt


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 22, 2010, 12:44 PM
Post #84 of 170 (822 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No your right on it, except, the Manufacturers Rules are Rules...

...In the country of manufacture, or if the operations regulations of the said country specifies so,

Those same manufacturers work hand over feet to get the lucarative contracts to supply containers to the companies that do the 20,000 plus tandems a year. The manufacturers also know those comapanies use precision reserves, Icarus or hop main canopies, do backflips, handicam...

You are talking about America again.

We are not subject to the same rules you are...


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 22, 2010, 12:46 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Dec 22, 2010, 12:50 PM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I was talking the rules from the manufacturer and was not aware of any exception for other countries other than the under age exception.

If your stating the manufacturer says it is OK to skip handle checks cause you use Handy cam OK. They told me "No" though.

BUT if your under standing of the rules as they apply from the manufacturer, in your location, is better than mine, I then stand corrected.

Matt


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 22, 2010, 12:57 PM
Post #86 of 170 (813 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If your stating the manufacturer says it is OK to skip handle checks cause you use Handy cam OK. They told me "No" though.

They will never tell you it is OK to skip handle checks, jump camera with a tandem with less than 500 jumps, do backflips, however they will also not refuse to sell equipment to companies they know ( good old youtube) do these very things, because that comapany may order 20 harnesses and containers every 2 years while failing to purchase the reserves and mains that supposedly go with them.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 22, 2010, 12:59 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Dec 22, 2010, 1:10 PM
Post #87 of 170 (809 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If your stating the manufacturer says it is OK to skip handle checks cause you use Handy cam OK. They told me "No" though.

They will never tell you it is OK to skip handle checks, jump camera with a tandem with less than 500 jumps, do backflips, however they will also not refuse to sell equipment to companies they know ( good old youtube) do these very things, because that comapany may order 20 harnesses and containers every 2 years while failing to purchase the reserves and mains that supposedly go with them.

Fair enough.

But if they did step up and pull your Manufacturers rating what would that then do?

In the US, the agreement is both USPA and the Manufacturer will honor the others disciplinary action. I.E. UPT pulls a rating USPA'a goes too.

Matt


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 22, 2010, 1:18 PM
Post #88 of 170 (805 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Fair enough.

But if they did step up and pull your Manufacturers rating what would that then do?

Nothing, unless I intend on doing tandems in the USA again.

There is no need for a manufacturers rating here or anywhere other than the USA or anywhere that has cloned their 'rules' off the USPA.

We have our own licencing and ratings system.

NZ is fucked up right now with 3 different sets of rules/licensing organisations but that is being ironed out over the next couple of years.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 22, 2010, 1:21 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Dec 22, 2010, 3:14 PM
Post #89 of 170 (782 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

So in NZ none of the Manufacturers issue ratings and are not "In Partnership" with the three governing bodies?

Well then, I now understand, you don't have to deal with any of our issues, so you see them as "silly" or "over reactive".

Matt


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 22, 2010, 8:55 PM
Post #90 of 170 (742 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

>They will never tell you it is OK to skip handle checks . . .

Yet you have decided it's OK. Perhaps someday people in the US will know better than the gear manufacturers how to operate their equipment. Until then, we'll have to live in the shadow of people arrogant enough to ignore the manufacturers in favor of their own opinions. C'est la vie.


ecnuob  (A License)

Dec 23, 2010, 2:57 AM
Post #91 of 170 (718 views)
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Re: [DSE] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

and that readme only covers the USPA, which like other things US related only cover things the lawyers think will make them money. Look at the recomendations of a few other countries... Ive seen as low as 50... Frankly, you have already decide to risk YOUR life by hurling it at the earth at 120mph, the chance that a camera is going to lead to you taking someone else out is small and you should put one on your head whenever you feel like it.

And there is a differnce between "camera flying" and video logging.


ecnuob  (A License)

Dec 23, 2010, 3:01 AM
Post #92 of 170 (717 views)
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Re: [billvon] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>could be camera or any other addition on the dive, I think the rules could
>be changed to make all the progreesion a 'student dependent' thing,

1) There's no 'rules' - it's a guideline, not a rule.

2) And they are still jumper dependent. If a jumper is exceptional, heads up, has done all the exits, can control their body, have a wide fall rate range etc. they may well be able to start doing camera at 200 jumps. Some people may take longer.

That's how it works now. The only problem is that some jumpers want to start RIGHT NOW and they don't understand the distractions of camera. So they start thinking that the 200 jump rule is the maximum, not the minimum. "Hey, if anyone can jump a camera at 200 jumps, I can start at 100, because I'm not just anyone!"

>a special attention can be spent to teach the right way. a good example
>is, why let a guy fly a wingsuit with 200 jumps if he is not good
>tracking????

Exactly, and that's why the wingsuit guidelines are 200 jumps ONLY if the person is an exceptional tracker, has compatible gear, is very heads up etc. 500 jumps is a better number for your 'average' jumper.


So who has said no to a paying student with 200 jumps that wants to go wingsuiting? Exceptional my ass...


monkycndo  (D License)

Dec 23, 2010, 4:44 AM
Post #93 of 170 (706 views)
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Re: [ecnuob] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

So who has said no to a paying student with 200 jumps that wants to go wingsuiting?

That would be me. Have had several students with over 200 jumps but not within the 18 months. I've seen what can happen when you disregard standards. It's best to learn from others mistakes.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 23, 2010, 6:18 AM
Post #94 of 170 (693 views)
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Re: [ecnuob] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
and that readme only covers the USPA, which like other things US related only cover things the lawyers think will make them money. Look at the recomendations of a few other countries... Ive seen as low as 50... Frankly, you have already decide to risk YOUR life by hurling it at the earth at 120mph, the chance that a camera is going to lead to you taking someone else out is small and you should put one on your head whenever you feel like it.

One line of the "Read Me" covers only the USPA and the Read Me was edited to mention other countries. The other 25-plus points are relevant to everyone. By your statement, are you saying that we let students jump with cameras, with wingsuits, skyboards, freefly tubes, inflatables regardless of jump numbers?

In reply to:
And there is a differnce between "camera flying" and video logging.

Would you explain the difference?


(This post was edited by DSE on Dec 23, 2010, 8:05 AM)


stratostar  (Student)

Dec 23, 2010, 6:35 AM
Post #95 of 170 (689 views)
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Re: [ecnuob] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

With all of your one year of wisdom in the sport you might want to rethink your statement.

Quote:
the chance that a camera is going to lead to you taking someone else out is small

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


Wings-n-Things  (D 12016)

Dec 23, 2010, 6:42 AM
Post #96 of 170 (687 views)
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Re: [TiaDanger] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... If there were camera instruction courses, it gives newbies like me a disciplined path to becoming a safe camera flyer....

BUT...if there were a comprehensive video course that teaches safety, body positioning, camera basics, and other techniques, I'd be the first to sign up and pay for that instruction. I would learn much faster doing that than hitting up camera fliers for tips every other jump.

Not to mention a comprehensive class on what kind of video equipment is out there, what kind of helmets, how to rig the cameras on the helmets, the various cutaway systems and the advantages/disadvantages of the various brands and such.

Anybody remember that guy in Florida about 20 years ago who was so distracted by his camera equipment, he forgot to put on his parachute?
I wonder how many jumps he had???

The tiny cameras available today, combined with camera ready helmets make camera flying a much easier & safer prospect than it used to be. So much so that a lot of the bickering on this thread is pretty silly IMHO.

Forget about an individuals jump numbers and focus on establishing a somewhat standardized training program and go from there. Wink


Scrumpot  (D License)

Dec 23, 2010, 7:15 AM
Post #97 of 170 (682 views)
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In reply to:
...you should put one on your head whenever you feel like it.

And there is a differnce between "camera flying" and video logging.

And the first time you are (as in my 1st hand experience/witnessed case - luckily only nearly) TAKEN OUT by just such a person, who was only using it "to log his own jump" - (supposedly) "didn't care about the quality" of the video, was ONLY for his strictly 1st person, POV "logging" - you will change your newby tune too.

Please. Sheesh. NOBODY IS TRYING TO HOLD YOU (or anyone) BACK! ALL WE ARE SAYING IS (please. ...please, please, please, please, *PLEASE*) - JUST GET THE MOST VERY BASIC (basics!) EXPERIENCE IN PLACE AND UNDER YOUR BELTS 1st. Really - that's all. Yes - in some cases, like mine (ours) as illustrated above sake, but really and truly for YOURS (and yes, your own "good") as well.

"Whenever you feel like it", no matter what - is just such an asinine, and so much of a completely selfish statement (all rules and reccomendation #'s debates even aside) - that I would also absolutely refuse to jump, or even have on my jumps anyone making any such statement - if they stated that in my presence on the DZ. REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER THEIR JUMP #'s EXPERIENCE. If they truly meant that.

FWIW.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Dec 23, 2010, 9:56 AM
Post #98 of 170 (650 views)
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In reply to:
With all of your one year of wisdom in the sport you might want to rethink your statement.

Quote:
the chance that a camera is going to lead to you taking someone else out is small

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I have been almost run into a few times by people flying cameras under canopy. If you as a new jumper want to jump camera so badly, stay the f*** away from anybody else, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Dec 23, 2010, 9:58 AM
Post #99 of 170 (648 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

So who has said no to a paying student with 200 jumps that wants to go wingsuiting?

That would be me. Have had several students with over 200 jumps but not within the 18 months. I've seen what can happen when you disregard standards. It's best to learn from others mistakes.

Me too a few times. For not being current/heads-up enough, and once for refusing to jump a sensible canopy.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 23, 2010, 10:11 AM
Post #100 of 170 (643 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

or the all famous check you camera 100 times on the way up and make sure it is on, and forget to even do one gear check. Oh that is so secondary to a good vid..


pilot-one  (D 30000)

Dec 23, 2010, 11:36 AM
Post #101 of 170 (1104 views)
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In reply to:
or the all famous check you camera 100 times on the way up and make sure it is on, and forget to even do one gear check. Oh that is so secondary to a good vid..

Going back to the OP that's exactly how I observed the friend in question that was reamed by the S&TA. Not a single gear check but many many camera checks. Several of us were watching.
Not too long ago (month or so)at the same dropzone a newbie was observed walking to the plane with camera helmet in hand but no rig.........
I don't get it and of course, it's unspoken, but I am now seen as a camera nazi and no doubt a full blown dickhead...LOL
I'm the dickhead too that won't let you "fly headdown" with 150 jumps on my load either. If you insist then I'll just scratch off the load.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 23, 2010, 12:12 PM
Post #102 of 170 (1098 views)
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In reply to:
but I am now seen as a camera nazi and no doubt a full blown dickhead...LOL
I'm the dickhead too that won't let you "fly headdown" with 150 jumps on my load either. If you insist then I'll just scratch off the load.


From one "dickhead/nazi/holding back your radical bad-azz mad skillz" guy to another....thank you for caring.
I can think of two situations that would have possibly had different outcomes had I been more vocal.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 23, 2010, 1:02 PM
Post #103 of 170 (1090 views)
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I probably ripped (not literally) at least 6-10 cameras off heads while they were on the way to the plane trying to sneak on by. All know we adhere strictly to the 200 jump recommendation. I ended up in many an arguement as a result. All were go-pro's and one was a still camera. In one case, there was no hook knife, an RSL was being used, no cutaway system, and they gopro was mounted with hard metal screws. Seems like us "dickhead/nazi/holding back your radical bad-azz mad skillz" guys are in the minority nowadays.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 23, 2010, 1:03 PM
Post #104 of 170 (1090 views)
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In reply to:
Yet you have decided it's OK. Perhaps someday people in the US will know better than the gear manufacturers how to operate their equipment. Until then, we'll have to live in the shadow of people arrogant enough to ignore the manufacturers in favor of their own opinions. C'est la vie.

So Bill, I showed yuo a few examples of this conduct AT YOUR DZ, and you refused to comment on it.

so answer this question.

Are you a S & TA at your DZ?

What do you plan on doing about the people breaking these procedures at your DZ?

I bet you will say nothing and will let is slide as long as you look like the good guy on the internet....


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 23, 2010, 1:30 PM
Post #105 of 170 (1084 views)
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In reply to:
Anybody remember that guy in Florida about 20 years ago who was so distracted by his camera equipment, he forgot to put on his parachute?
I wonder how many jumps he had???

Flying a camera is no distraction at all. No problem.Unsure

Sparky


April 6, 1988

PARACHUTIST'S DEATH RULED ACCIDENTAL

LOUISBURG (AP) - The death of an experienced parachutist who fell 10,500 feet without a parachute while he was filming another jump was accidental, Franklin County vestigators said Tuesday. "We have gathered enough information to declare it an accident," Sheriff Arthur Johnson said. Ivan Lester McGuire, 35, of Durham died Saturday after jumping from an airplane without a parachute, said Captain Ralph Brown of the Sheriff's Department. McGuire had made more than 800 jumps.McGuire, who was carrying a video camera mounted on his helmet, was filming a student and an instructor at Franklin County Sports Parachute Center when he jumped from the plane piloted by Mark Luman of Louisburg. Luman couldn't be found for comment and had no telephone listing, but Brown said the pilot "wasn't in any position to see what happened in the back of the plane." There was no answer at the parachute center. But Nancy Fayard was quoted Tuesday in the News and Observer of Raleigh [NC] as saying: "No one was aware that he got on the plane without a parachute. Of course no one knew or they would have stopped him." Brown said that there was no foul play and no indication that suicide was involved. But, he added, "A man who has jumped 800 times ought to remember his parachute." McGuire's body was found in woods about 1 1/2 miles from the airfield. The videotape showed McGuire jumping from the airplane and that the jump was going smoothly until the parachutes worn by the instructor and the student opened and McGuire hurtled below them. " It kind of appears he reached for his parachute and he didn't have one." Brown said. "You could see the instructor and the student falling on the video. But the release for his parachute is on the right hip, and when the right hand goes down, the left hand comes forward and it comes into camera view. "Then the pictures get to moving real fast because he's approaching the ground at 150 mph. The only thing the camera shows is the ground coming." Brown said blood samples will show whether McGuire had alcohol or drugs in his system and test results should be ready in about a week. Although an expert jumper, McGuire could have forgotten to put on his parachute because of fatigue or preoccupation with his video equipment, said Fayard, wife of club owner Paul Fayard-the instructor on McGuire's last jump. Nancy Fayard said McGuire worked third shift at Northern Telecom Inc., a manufacturer of telephone switching equipment, and usually left the club at noon to get to work. On Saturday, she said, he stayed until 2:30 to shoot the video. "He's a real perfectionist when it comes to his video photography, and he'd been working a lot on it," she said. "The best we can figure is he became so preoccupied with the video, and then being fatigued, that
his mind was on the video."
A Federal Aviation Administration investigator said he was checking to see if Luman knew whether McGuire was wearing a parachute when he
entered the airplane before the jump. Walter L. Rigsbee of the district office in Raleigh said FAA rules require that the pilot check to see that parachutists have on parachutes. Johnson said Tuesday the investigation showed the pilot thought McGuire was wearing a parachute. But Rigsbee said the video equipment may have been mistaken for a parachute. "These parachute clubs have safety programs," Rigsbee said. "They check these jumpers out depending on their experience."




(This post was edited by mjosparky on Dec 23, 2010, 1:32 PM)


Wings-n-Things  (D 12016)

Dec 23, 2010, 4:18 PM
Post #106 of 170 (1069 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Anybody remember that guy in Florida about 20 years ago who was so distracted by his camera equipment, he forgot to put on his parachute?
I wonder how many jumps he had???

Flying a camera is no distraction at all. No problem.Unsure

Sparky
Sparky 'ol pal, my only point is that jump number matters little. Anybody could potentially get so distracted they forget their rig. And for what it's worth, a simple pin check would have saved the jumper I mentioned. NOBODY is too cool for a pin check. Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 23, 2010, 8:10 PM
Post #107 of 170 (1045 views)
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Re: [ecnuob] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

>So who has said no to a paying student with 200 jumps that wants to
>go wingsuiting?

Me, for one.

>Exceptional my ass...

Well, a few of us actually do use our judgment.


jrjny  (A License)

Dec 23, 2010, 11:01 PM
Post #108 of 170 (1028 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

100 jumps to fly with students...200 to attach something to your helmet?

A DOZEN+ FATALITIES plus untold injuries per year related to 'high-performance' landings with ZERO recommendations in the SIM around jump #'s there, except for an ambiguous statement (no doubt crafted by practitioners of the 'art'):

http://www.uspa.org/...69/Default.aspx#611f

4. A canopy pilot should receive as much coaching as possible to reduce the risks under canopy; however, USPA warns all jumpers that any pilot who manipulates the canopy controls to induce additional speed prior to landings presents a greater hazard to himself or herself and others.

Come on - this is skydiving...not Newtonian mechanics. Every jump exposes you to small probabilities of catastrophic results that you have no control over and while you shouldn't knowingly push the envelope -- this argument is ridiculous. There should be a moderately standardized course to educate people - just like 'swoop coaching' that has no doubt benefited many a orthopedic surgeon and funeral home.

Enough hand-holding, egotism, babying and misdirection - people will do what they want and the market responds accordingly. If you want footage buy a camera and go tape the damn jump. Make sure it's on though Wink

Regards,

Jeff


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 24, 2010, 9:16 AM
Post #109 of 170 (991 views)
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Re: [billvon] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread and every other one involving jump numbers for flying camera's has become painful to keep up with. If we take every thread regarding the issue and combind them into one enormous thread, not one thing has changed in the arguement since post one day one. It seems we are going in one big painful circle. This reminds me of a Capital punishment arguement. people on bothsides set in their convictions. We can go back and forth on it but what is the use if nothing positive comes out of it. It is starting to seem like a collasal waste of time and energy.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 24, 2010, 10:52 AM
Post #110 of 170 (975 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
100 jumps to fly with students...200 to attach something to your helmet?

A DOZEN+ FATALITIES plus untold injuries per year related to 'high-performance' landings with ZERO recommendations in the SIM around jump #'s there, except for an ambiguous statement (no doubt crafted by practitioners of the 'art'):

http://www.uspa.org/...69/Default.aspx#611f

4. A canopy pilot should receive as much coaching as possible to reduce the risks under canopy; however, USPA warns all jumpers that any pilot who manipulates the canopy controls to induce additional speed prior to landings presents a greater hazard to himself or herself and others.

Come on - this is skydiving...not Newtonian mechanics. Every jump exposes you to small probabilities of catastrophic results that you have no control over and while you shouldn't knowingly push the envelope -- this argument is ridiculous. There should be a moderately standardized course to educate people - just like 'swoop coaching' that has no doubt benefited many a orthopedic surgeon and funeral home.

Enough hand-holding, egotism, babying and misdirection - people will do what they want and the market responds accordingly. If you want footage buy a camera and go tape the damn jump. Make sure it's on though Wink

Regards,

Jeff

As unfortunate as it is, you're right.
USPA should be more actively seeking means of reducing fatalities and serious injuries due to small canopies and rapid downsizing. Scandinavian countries have a program worth examining as a potential model. However...one "wrong" doesn't make for another right, right?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 24, 2010, 11:43 AM
Post #111 of 170 (965 views)
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We agree on this.
USPA should be doing more to EDUCATE aspiring camera-flyers.
Every few years, PARACHUTIST Magazine publishes an article or three about "how to fly a camera," but last year's magazines are lost on this year's new crop of skydivers.
Maybe this year's crop of new skydivers needs something online, on USPA's website ... oh! silly me! It would have to be Facebook or Twitter or this second's fashion in social networking websites. The beauty of social networking websites is that they allow young jumpers to learn from each other??????
Hah!
Hah!

Oh!
Just ignore a grumpy old bastard like me.
Hah!
Hah!


jrjny  (A License)

Dec 24, 2010, 12:29 PM
Post #112 of 170 (960 views)
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Re: [DSE] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As unfortunate as it is, you're right.
USPA should be more actively seeking means of reducing fatalities and serious injuries due to small canopies and rapid downsizing. Scandinavian countries have a program worth examining as a potential model. However...one "wrong" doesn't make for another right, right?

In absolute terms no, but life is all about contrast - in part that's why we participate in a sport that has ZERO pragmatic value (let's be honest Cool ). Some people want to stand out, some want self overcoming, some adrenaline, some camaraderie, some money lol.

So, in what I believe is a loosely and very imperfectly governed system, being overly focused on one item to the detriment of another - especially if both are in the name of greater safety and the sport's REPUTATION/approachability (eg, Google the name of some dropzone and you'll see 'fatality' appended to the search term) = kinda silly.

I don't have thousands of jumps nor am I able to do fancy free flying or swooping, but I do realize before every jump regardless of whether I have a camera:

>check my gear 3x before boarding,
>on the plane +
>3rd party pin check plus EP review before exiting not to mention,
>before driving to the DZ.

I've drilled the notion of altitude awareness into my head so many times, that I EXPECT I will continue checking my altimeter and being heads up regardless of how experienced/laid back I may become. If I fail at this I have 2 audibles from 2 different manufacturers to further minimize an already small probability (though still non-zero). If ALL else fails I have a brand new cypress which while does not guarantee anything, keeps me ever further from annihilation.

That said, returning to small probabilities - I may die or get maimed unexpectedly for a situation I could have never expected. That's life and I do NOT believe this basic concept is drilled into people's heads, hence the recurring theme of experienced jumpers smashing into the ground, over and over and over again. I truly wonder if I will get the point mentally where I need to learn high performance landings to still enjoy the sport:

Quote:
USPA warns all jumpers that any pilot who manipulates the canopy controls to induce additional speed prior to landings presents a greater hazard to himself or herself and others.

- I can't comment because I'm not there yet or even close but it gives pause for thought.

Chase 2 rabbits and catch none....

Jeff
Attachments: google search.jpg (88.8 KB)


jrjny  (A License)

Dec 24, 2010, 12:36 PM
Post #113 of 170 (957 views)
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Humor me - imagine a newb walks into a dropzone and says, "hey there were 40 fatalities in the US last year, why should I make a jump at all?"

Would you say, "don't worry most of them had hundreds or thousands of jumps and knew what they were doing" - you'll be fine. Shocked

WTF


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 25, 2010, 2:03 AM
Post #114 of 170 (913 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We agree on this.
USPA should be doing more to EDUCATE aspiring camera-flyers.
Every few years, PARACHUTIST Magazine publishes an article or three about "how to fly a camera," but last year's magazines are lost on this year's new crop of skydivers.
Maybe this year's crop of new skydivers needs something online, on USPA's website ... oh! silly me! It would have to be Facebook or Twitter or this second's fashion in social networking websites. The beauty of social networking websites is that they allow young jumpers to learn from each other??????
Hah!
Hah!

Oh!
Just ignore a grumpy old bastard like me.
Hah!
Hah!

Rob,

You can't teach common sense and attitude. It must come from within.

Sparky


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 25, 2010, 4:55 AM
Post #115 of 170 (907 views)
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Quote:
USPA should be doing more to EDUCATE aspiring camera-flyers.

Disagree. It is not the USPA's role to train skydivers, whether new or experienced.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 25, 2010, 2:59 PM
Post #116 of 170 (870 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This thread and every other one involving jump numbers for flying camera's has become painful to keep up with. If we take every thread regarding the issue and combind them into one enormous thread, not one thing has changed in the arguement since post one day one.

This is because of the inability of those to acept the differences in different places and simply (mistakingly) assume that their system is the best, and no alternative could ever be more acceptable.

There has been plenty to learn.

Remember, much more people read here than that post here, and the ridicule from many of the post whores, is purposly placed by the bigots to avoid the alternative opinions coming out and discrediting their own.

This is common throughout society.

Aside from that, there is plenty to learn here and these forums are not just for you and me, they are for everybody and that will always ensure a difference of opinion.

How people ingest and respond to those differences, is entirely up to themselves.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 25, 2010, 3:02 PM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 25, 2010, 8:02 PM
Post #117 of 170 (835 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

5 pages later:

Different country's have different requirements to jump with a camera.

All of them are not the same.

Therefore, whether it is 50, 100, or 200 people will always be argueing to increase or decrease.

USPA must make the recommendation, taking into consideration the safety of the majority.

What more can I get from re-hashing.

Now, if you want to make a case for 50, 100, or 200, or 1000. Bring forth facts, study's, to give your thought process some clout.

You have not shown me that if the recommendation was 100 there would be no signifigant difference from the statistics if it were 200.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 25, 2010, 8:38 PM
Post #118 of 170 (830 views)
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In reply to:
You have not shown me that if the recommendation was 100 there would be no signifigant difference from the statistics if it were 200.

If not, then I needn't bother. The information is there.


PiLFy  (A License)

Dec 26, 2010, 6:52 AM
Post #119 of 170 (808 views)
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"This thread and every other one involving jump numbers for flying camera's....is starting to seem like a collasal waste of time and energy."

Yep...+1


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 26, 2010, 7:45 AM
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Rhys,

I am going to publicly disagree with you, because you have not grasped a recurring theme in my posts - whether my posts be about tandems or rigging or camera-jumping.
My recurring theme is: USPA, CSPA, APF, BPA, etc. all learned a lesson the hard/bloody way, so why do we need to re-learn that lesson.

When training new tandem instructors, I deliberately blur the distinction between accidents that occurred with Strong gear and accidents that occurred with Vector gear.

When training new Canadian Rigger As, I tell them that FARs may not be LAW in Canada, but they are considered "best business practice." Ignore a FAR and you stand alone in a Canadian court.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner
FAA Master Rigger
CSPA Rigger Examiner
600 jumps with Handy-Cam


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 26, 2010, 2:41 PM
Post #121 of 170 (777 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When training new tandem instructors, I deliberately blur the distinction between accidents that occurred with Strong gear and accidents that occurred with Vector gear.

When training new Canadian Rigger As, I tell them that FARs may not be LAW in Canada, but they are considered "best business practice." Ignore a FAR and you stand alone in a Canadian court.

Cool, we will agree to disagree, you will find that many, not only myself, wish to avoid the unecessary beaurocracy that is prevalent in the United States.

Common sense out the window and status quo un challenged... Not where I want to be thank you.

And no matter how much you think their way is the best way, it is not the rules in many countries and to say that people should adhere to rules that are not specific to them IMHO is lunacy.

I don't expect you would recieve to well me coming into one of your tandem exams and saying that the participants should wait for another few hundred jumps, so they have at least 1000 before proceeding because that has worked well for us...

I cannot see any difference.

But we have agreed to disagree and we are allowed to do that.

have a nice day.


(This post was edited by rhys on Dec 26, 2010, 5:15 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 26, 2010, 4:56 PM
Post #122 of 170 (761 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't expect you would recieve to well me coming into one of your tandem exams and saying that the participants should wait for another few hundred jumps, so they have at least 1000 before proceeding because that has worked well for us...

I dunno, Rhys. Not being a TI, I have no dog in that training hunt but from a strictly safety POV, I would find it hard to argue that point.

I'm of the better-safe-than-sorry school of thought.

Are you going to now ask just how many jumps would get the green light? Quantity is not a valid benchmark for that.

What's not being considered right now, or at least is not getting enough emphasis IMO, is the important stuff, in my book...mentality, attitude and willingness to play within the rules. The problem with all that is that we can test skills, but how do you test, and quantify, the rest of it?

So...we're stuck with jump numbers for now.
Unsure


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 28, 2010, 11:15 AM
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Not sure if I agree with Rhys - about whether aspiring TIs should make 1,000 before earning the rating???
It would be nice - from a safety perspective - however, we run into a compromise.
The compromise is between youthful exuberance and knowledge.
In Canada, we try to get young skydivers to become coaches while they are still young and enthusiastic (say 100 jumps) ... while they still have the enthusiasm to pass on lots of knowledge to young jumpers.

Since few recreational skydivers reach 1,000 jumps, I doubt if that is a reasonable pre-level for TIs. By 1,000 jumps, many have burnt out and moved on to other sports. By 1,000 jumps, some "know it all" and are impossible to retrain as effective TIs.

But I have to agree with the poster below Rhys that the true measure is a list of skills. No matter how many thousands of jups they make, many skydivers will perpetually remain to self-centered and too immature to ever make effective TIs.
I have already twice refused to train a local videographer to become a TI, something about him injuring himself two springs in a row. I am afraid to train him to become a TI for fear that he will injure a student.

So we are stuck in a compromise between rising experience and decreasing enthusiasm, when we decide who to rain as TIs.


Fast  (D 28237)

Dec 29, 2010, 8:59 AM
Post #124 of 170 (627 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm so sick of hearing about this country or that country.

I don't care about any of that. I think, 50 jumps is too few to be jumping camera. I think 100 is too few jumps to be coaching another skydiver. At about 200 jumps I'm comfortable with someone introducing one new thing.

Pick something: coaching, wingsuits, cameras, swooping, accuracy, freeflying... whatever it is that might trip your trigger and start to learn about that. Get a grasp on what is going on, get some coaching on the subject, learn about it. Once you have a basic grasp on that subject only then should you start to add something else.

I'm sick of "I want everything now." There are going to be diamonds in the rough that stand out, but it really is clear when you find one of them. I have seen it. In 7 years of skydiving I have seen only one person that was exceptionally better than everyone else. Only 1 out of all the students including myself that my dropzone has trained.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 11:48 AM
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In reply to:
There are going to be diamonds in the rough that stand out, but it really is clear when you find one of them.

And here's the thing... Those WILL get to 200 jumps (or whatever #, for whatever discipline you are using) soon / "quick" enough. I really don't see WHAT THE BIG DEAL (i.e. RUSH/HURRY) IS. Seriously. Nobody is holding any of these "mad skillz" set back. Mad

I mean, what's the deal? Gotta hurry up and get that camera (or wingsuit, or swoop, or whatever) on RIGHT NOW no matter what?? - Gotta hurry up before you get to jump #199 right - - - after all, you may even just have flat out QUIT and moved on by then. Right? This sh** gets old otherwise, right - after (or any longer than) jump #100 easily. 150 at the latest.

Better get ALL OF IT out that you can NOW - before you're ready to just hang it up and move on anyway. Crazy


Fast  (D 28237)

Dec 30, 2010, 8:23 AM
Post #126 of 170 (929 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
There are going to be diamonds in the rough that stand out, but it really is clear when you find one of them.

And here's the thing... Those WILL get to 200 jumps (or whatever #, for whatever discipline you are using) soon / "quick" enough. I really don't see WHAT THE BIG DEAL (i.e. RUSH/HURRY) IS. Seriously. Nobody is holding any of these "mad skillz" set back. Mad

I mean, what's the deal? Gotta hurry up and get that camera (or wingsuit, or swoop, or whatever) on RIGHT NOW no matter what?? - Gotta hurry up before you get to jump #199 right - - - after all, you may even just have flat out QUIT and moved on by then. Right? This sh** gets old otherwise, right - after (or any longer than) jump #100 easily. 150 at the latest.

Better get ALL OF IT out that you can NOW - before you're ready to just hang it up and move on anyway. Crazy

I entirely agree with you. That is the exact sentiment that I am most annoyed with.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 2, 2011, 2:17 AM
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I'm so sick of hearing about this country or that country.

I don't care about any of that. I think, 50 jumps is too few to be jumping camera. I think 100 is too few jumps to be coaching another skydiver. At about 200 jumps I'm comfortable with someone introducing one new thing.

Pick something: coaching, wingsuits, cameras, swooping, accuracy, freeflying... whatever it is that might trip your trigger and start to learn about that. Get a grasp on what is going on, get some coaching on the subject, learn about it. Once you have a basic grasp on that subject only then should you start to add something else.

You probably misunderstand what the commercial skydiving diploma course I attended has to offer. At 50 jumps we were practcing filming each other (without cameras) by pairing up. One flys around the other, while the other simply sits in place (at first) then the jumps become more dynamic. At 100 jumps we put a camera on while under dircect supervision of an instructor, we paractice and practice and have assignments in video and stills, and by 200 jumps we were ready to jump with a tandem and shortly after we begin filming them at a commercial dropzone. We were specifically trained from scratch to do that. Only one person that was on my course of 16 people had a skydiving license before starting the course.

We very much pick something (camera jumping) and focus on it, we train and get coaching and train and do assignments and train and jump more than 5 times every day, 7 days a week weather permitting. Doing your first 170 jumps in 5 months is very current, and quite different to what most people experience.

The course is a government sponsored and accredited tertiary commercial sydiving diploma that specifically trains camera flyers from scratch.

The focus is on training for camera from before your very first jump. Students do written assignements on safety, risk and crisis management, airspace, professionalism among other subjects.

There is constant coaching on offer and the focus is on camera, not freefly or wingsuiting or crw or formation skydiving, camera is the focus from a very early level.

It was not until I had about 350 jumps and working as a camera guy that I could affod to make fun jumps doing what I wanted like freefly etc. I was very focused.

I seriously doubt you have seen anyone go through a similar progression as there is not another training organisation in the world that offers such a course (as far as I am aware).

The reason our country has these type of schools (for various indusries) is that toursim is the second largest income for our country, adventure tourism is very important to our economy.

There are similar training courses for many other adventure sports and activities that are on offer in NZ as tourism businesses account for 10% of the workforce in the country and a higher proportion of the GDP. Without training courses such as these, we would be stuck with random scruffy sport skydivers from around the globe that have no background in the tourism sector.

Our DZ's are significantly different to yours, and that is probably why many on here are having trouble grasping the difference.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 2, 2011, 2:44 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 2, 2011, 10:22 AM
Post #128 of 170 (817 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm so sick of hearing about this country or that country.

I don't care about any of that. I think, 50 jumps is too few to be jumping camera. I think 100 is too few jumps to be coaching another skydiver. At about 200 jumps I'm comfortable with someone introducing one new thing.

Pick something: coaching, wingsuits, cameras, swooping, accuracy, freeflying... whatever it is that might trip your trigger and start to learn about that. Get a grasp on what is going on, get some coaching on the subject, learn about it. Once you have a basic grasp on that subject only then should you start to add something else.

You probably misunderstand what the commercial skydiving diploma course I attended has to offer. At 50 jumps we were practcing filming each other (without cameras) by pairing up. One flys around the other, while the other simply sits in place (at first) then the jumps become more dynamic. At 100 jumps we put a camera on while under dircect supervision of an instructor, we paractice and practice and have assignments in video and stills, and by 200 jumps we were ready to jump with a tandem and shortly after we begin filming them at a commercial dropzone. We were specifically trained from scratch to do that. Only one person that was on my course of 16 people had a skydiving license before starting the course.

We very much pick something (camera jumping) and focus on it, we train and get coaching and train and do assignments and train and jump more than 5 times every day, 7 days a week weather permitting. Doing your first 170 jumps in 5 months is very current, and quite different to what most people experience.

The course is a government sponsored and accredited tertiary commercial sydiving diploma that specifically trains camera flyers from scratch.

The focus is on training for camera from before your very first jump. Students do written assignements on safety, risk and crisis management, airspace, professionalism among other subjects.

There is constant coaching on offer and the focus is on camera, not freefly or wingsuiting or crw or formation skydiving, camera is the focus from a very early level.
.....
I seriously doubt you have seen anyone go through a similar progression as there is not another training organisation in the world that offers such a course (as far as I am aware).

To be very clear about the NZ program;
while I agree it's a great thing...
Our DZ is a host to the NZ interns. We always have at least one, and occasionally more.

Despite whatever diploma is issued following completion of the course, the ones that I've seen here, in Byron Bay, and other DZs overseas...these guys are FAR from ready to fly camera once they're graduated. I've had several in my Coach Course, and have done many eval jumps with them. All of them have received the "B certificate" issued by the school. I've also helped a number of them get their camera gear set up, something that would have happened at the school were camera the focus you imply.

It's a terrific program, but it isn't what you suggest it is, either. At least not from what I've experienced in multiple locations.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 2, 2011, 1:30 PM
Post #129 of 170 (782 views)
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In reply to:
To be very clear about the NZ program;
while I agree it's a great thing...
Our DZ is a host to the NZ interns. We always have at least one, and occasionally more.

Despite whatever diploma is issued following completion of the course, the ones that I've seen here, in Byron Bay, and other DZs overseas...these guys are FAR from ready to fly camera once they're graduated. I've had several in my Coach Course, and have done many eval jumps with them.

Are you talking about flying with a camera or flying camera for a job?

Usually it will take another 100 jumps (or more) after the course for a student to be ready for work as a camera person, but they can pack and edit and do other duties around the DZ while in training. Most should be ready to jump with a tandem at 200 jumps and have the understanding and relative skill to be safe in doing so.

I did my first paid Jump at 270 jumps, I am training up another right now that has the same number, I would say those with good aptitude from the course will be ready at around 300 jumps to be a commercial camera guy 'if they put thier energy into it', some are never ready. Our latest student will be ready in a few jumps and has sold some of his footage already because it was in frame the whole time and he made a complete document of the customers experience, including great still shots.

The diploma itself is a worthless peice of paper, it is the experience behind the diploma that counts.

A NZSS student at your DZ would have to wait until they have 500 jumps before they can jump with a tandem would they not?


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 2, 2011, 1:37 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 2, 2011, 3:39 PM
Post #130 of 170 (765 views)
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A NZSS student at your DZ would have to wait until they have 500 jumps before they can jump with a tandem would they not?

In the U.S. with the Tandem using a UPT Rig (SIGMA or Vector II) Yes. The other two Rigs I would have to look up.

And this thread along with the others like it has gotten UPT's attention.

Matt


Ron

Jan 2, 2011, 6:11 PM
Post #131 of 170 (743 views)
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Quote:
We very much pick something (camera jumping) and focus on it, we train and get coaching and train and do assignments and train and jump more than 5 times every day, 7 days a week weather permitting. Doing your first 170 jumps in 5 months is very current, and quite different to what most people experience.

What you describe is FAR from normal. And a person that goes through a program like you describe might be ready at 100 jumps.... But that does not mean the normal average jumper would be.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 2, 2011, 8:19 PM
Post #132 of 170 (731 views)
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In reply to:
What you describe is FAR from normal. And a person that goes through a program like you describe might be ready at 100 jumps.... But that does not mean the normal average jumper would be.

It is pretty normal around here.

Smile


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 2, 2011, 8:20 PM
Post #133 of 170 (729 views)
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In reply to:
And this thread along with the others like it has gotten UPT's attention.

Great, they should be aware of how things work in different places.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2011, 9:02 PM
Post #134 of 170 (718 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

>Great, they should be aware of how things work in different places.

Or they may decide to expend a little more effort telling DZ's how their gear is intended to be operated.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 2, 2011, 9:05 PM
Post #135 of 170 (716 views)
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In reply to:
Or they may decide to expend a little more effort telling DZ's how their gear is intended to be operated.

Maybe they could start in San Diego?

talk to the S & TA there...


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 2, 2011, 9:07 PM)


idodsick  (A 51673)

Jan 2, 2011, 9:51 PM
Post #136 of 170 (702 views)
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Stop me if im wrong. Arent manufacturers ratings only valid in the US? As far as i understand NZ, AUS can do whatever they want with tandem equipment. Not saying its right or wrong.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 2, 2011, 9:57 PM
Post #137 of 170 (701 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Or they may decide to expend a little more effort telling DZ's how their gear is intended to be operated.

Maybe they could start in San Diego?

talk to the S & TA there...

San Diego has someone flying camera at 100 jumps?


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 2, 2011, 10:15 PM
Post #138 of 170 (692 views)
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In reply to:
Stop me if im wrong. Arent manufacturers ratings only valid in the US? As far as i understand NZ, AUS can do whatever they want with tandem equipment. Not saying its right or wrong.

Depends if the operations regulations specifies that the manufacturers recommendations must be met or not.

At present this is not the case so it comes down to what the part 149 holder specifies.

This year the rules are changing in NZ, but I can imagine it will be similar to what it is now.

Who knows what will happen when prt 115 comes in.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 2, 2011, 10:19 PM
Post #139 of 170 (691 views)
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In reply to:
San Diego has someone flying camera at 100 jumps?

Not that i am aware of, that is not what I meant, bill knows what I mean.

There is no need for a tangent on the appropriate use of tandem equipment in a camera flying thread.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 2, 2011, 10:22 PM)


idodsick  (A 51673)

Jan 3, 2011, 1:24 AM
Post #140 of 170 (671 views)
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It only has relevance when manufacturers rules only matter in the US. Those rules dont apply/arent used in other countries. Its not a standardized system. Maybe it should be, but its not. UPT says that i should have a D to jump with tandems. Thats what i am working toward. Aussie rules dont require it. If they wish to jump here they most meet our requirements. Why are some holding them to our rules in thier home country? That is all. Carry on.


Ron

Jan 3, 2011, 6:34 AM
Post #141 of 170 (663 views)
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Quote:
It is pretty normal around here.

You like to bitch that Americans only think skydiving is in the US.... You are currently doing the same thing and assuming only your country counts.

If I were to hazard a guess.... And we were to take every skydiver in the World... your exp would not be "normal".


(This post was edited by Ron on Jan 3, 2011, 6:36 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 3, 2011, 8:47 AM
Post #142 of 170 (630 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

>Maybe they could start in San Diego?

I think they'd be more likely to start at a DZ that posts regularly and at great length about their disregard for tandem operating procedures.


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 3, 2011, 9:38 AM
Post #143 of 170 (615 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Stop me if im wrong. Arent manufacturers ratings only valid in the US? As far as i understand NZ, AUS can do whatever they want with tandem equipment. Not saying its right or wrong.

Depends if the operations regulations specifies that the manufacturers recommendations must be met or not.

At present this is not the case so it comes down to what the part 149 holder specifies.

This year the rules are changing in NZ, but I can imagine it will be similar to what it is now.

Who knows what will happen when prt 115 comes in.

It's all fun and games till someone show's up at a court hearing and throws you under the bus for being ignorant of manufacturer recommendations.

Also, I think that you sure as hell need to qualify your posts on here. I most of the threads that you have been in crusading for people to jump camera's at 100 jumps and jumping with tandems at 200 you haven't even touched on the subject of a highly focused advanced training program.

Whether or not it's a quality program and if it makes a difference I'm sure is up for debate based on what DSE has said, but the fact of that matter is that, no one in the US has that experience or level of training. It's not happening here at all.

There are clearly differences in different places but even with that I just am not sure that the average person will wrap their head around the dangers of the sport and the implications of what they are doing in such a short period of time.

I mean, clearly it's working for you guys in NZ since we don't hear about a ton of problems, but it certainly isn't a model for the average skydiver.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 3, 2011, 10:07 AM
Post #144 of 170 (601 views)
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Quote:
I mean, clearly it's working for you guys in NZ since we don't hear about a ton of problems, but it certainly isn't a model for the average skydiver.

The threat of being black-balled in a very small country whose economy is based in great part on tourism probably plays a role in the incident statistics.
Incidents happen in NZ, but you don't hear about them.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 3, 2011, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
I mean, clearly it's working for you guys in NZ since we don't hear about a ton of problems

Based on what?

NZ has a total population equal to Kentucky. It's not a big place, and when he makes comments like 'The majority of jumpers here.....', how many jumpers does that really equal?

Let's go one step further, how many of those jumpers could possibly go through the 'skydivign diploma' program, and how many of them follow that up by actualyl working at an NZ DZ?

How many DZs are there, and how many positions could possibly be open looking for new jumpers? From what he says, everyone working in-air makes a shit-ton of jumps, so that would lend itseld to less working jumpers than more. There are a limited number of jumps made, and if all the TIs and camera guys are doing 1000+ every year, NZ is probably not the place to look for info regarding the success or failure of their programs.

The guy wants to shit on the US for a dozen reasons, but as previously pointed out, the MAJORITY of equipment and aircraft used in skydiving were designed and built in the US, to include the tandem rigs he jumps and the Cessna he flies at his DZ.

Take what he says with a grain of salt, and remember that he comes from a country with the population of Kentucky and same number of DZs as TX, CA and FL combined. Between the 175 extra DZs in the other 47 states and the 300 million more people, it might be time to stop shitting on the US so much.


strop45  (D 957)

Jan 3, 2011, 3:11 PM
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In reply to:
remember that he comes from a country with the population of Kentucky and same number of DZs as TX, CA and FL combined.
Since you come from a much bigger, better place, you win...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 3, 2011, 3:33 PM
Post #147 of 170 (544 views)
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>Since you come from a much bigger, better place, you win...

If that's what you took from his post, you may have missed the point. His point was not about "where's better?" but rather about the number of DZ's per person. In that respect, NZ is much "better" than Kentucky (or even California.)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 3, 2011, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
Since you come from a much bigger, better place, you win...

It's not a matter of that, it's a matter of the US having a much longer and more productive history in sport skydiving than NZ, and to use NZ as the example of 'what's right' ignoring that fact is a little shortsighted.

I read that the first commercial tandem DZ opened in NZ in 1990. How many DZs were around NZ before then? How many of the new ones were opened to cash in on the tourist tandem trade? 95%? 98%?

Back in 1989 when NZ had very little going on in the way of skydiving, the US had 100's of DZ, dozens of manufacturers who are still in business today (and represent the cornerstones of the industry) and multiple teams takign gold in international competition.

Like it or not, sport skydiving was born and bred in the US, and we have the longest history and greatest weath of experience and knowledge of the sport in the world.

I'm courious as the actual jumping population of NZ? 90-some % of all your jumps are tandems, and those are tourists. How many sport jumpers are there exactly in the whole counrty? To be conservative, the US has at least 15,000 current jumpers (figuring half of the 30,000 USPA members are current).

Excuse me for being skeptikal about following the lead of a micro-cosom of skydiving when it comes to training and licensed jumper progression.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 4, 2011, 4:54 AM
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You americans really need to get over yourselves.

There may not be many sport skydivers in NZ.
There are only 4 million people citizens in total here.

Who the fuck cares, and what the fuck does all that have to do with this thread and jumping camera.

You will find Australia is much, much 'looser' ( with what really happens) in regards to the number of jumps you will see people jumping with cameras, tandems etc. etc.

NZ has some of the strictest regulations generally speaking but with camera our laws are not ruled by litigation, we are not afraid of litigation here as you will find the;

"I'll sue the crap out of you" attitude does not really happen here. You can still sue others byt you will not see multi million dollar lawsuits ove some menial crap.

Our skydiving regulations are rules, yours are reccomendations.

Big difference. Our DZSO has the power to stop someone doing soemthing, a S & TA is an advisor.. big difference.

Yes we have a small population and yes we have lots of tourists. We have more tourists coming through every 2 years than we have people in our population.

Many of them want to skydive.

Our country is completly different to the USA, we have different rules, as we have differnt rules to Australia, South Africa, Canada and every other country in the world. many of these have different regulations to you, and allow jumoers to jumo with camera and tandems at much less experience that is required in the states.

( I really cannot believe I have to explain this again)

I am just saying how it works here, it has worked here that way since well before I started jumping and will continue for time to come.

We will be leading the way with the Part 115 adventure aviation standards this year.

Skydiving aviation will offficially be a commercial 'adventure' activity, and will be somewhere between part 149 'sport aviation' and part 135 air transport.

The ratio of sport and commercial skydiving here is completely different to the USA.

Yes we do shitloads of tandems, yes there are not that many sport skydivers and not all of them work in the industry.

There are about 100,000 tandems performed here annually give or take, most likely more these days (the growth is not slowing any).

So that allows 100 tandem masters and about 50 camera people to do 1000 jumps a year. But that it not exactly how it works, some will do 500 and other 1500.


NZ - 4millon people / 100,000 tandems = I tandem for every 40 citizens

America to have the same ratio would have to do;

307 million / 40 = 7,675,000

Would any of you say there is 7.5 million tandems in the US per annum?

I would say not, so that would tell us that NZ is actually proportionally much, much larger for tandem skydiving and hence the ratio of people here performing a steeper curve of total jump numbers.

I sure wish sport skydiving was stronger and I plan to help make that heppen but it would be impossible for us to have a proportionally similar amount of sport jumper to tandems as the USA a our population and the amount of tourists here simply does not allow for that.


It is simply different here, the seppo attitude that we should have to do everything the same as the americans because we are using american gear is simply arrogant, .

I have been to DZ's around america, I know many people that have worked and jumped at many more, and I have heard many many stories.

Do not pretend for a minute that the operations in the USA are all squeaky clean and all of your own DZ's follow the rules to the last full stop.

We have rules that accomodate the reality. You have rules determined by litigation, not common sense.

No matter what any of you say, Bills mates down at his old home DZ (and many other operations) breaking the rules and reccomendations in you country, by manufacturers in your country along with the many, many others with the same type of conduct, pose much more of a risk to the manufacturers, legally, finacially, logistically... than a bunch of dz's in different countries south of the equator with separate laws and legal systems.

It is a shame each thread I add input to, that somehow conflicts with the USPA or USA rules and reccomendations becoames a bitch fest of ostentatious posts from super_on_line_good_guys that pretend to live in some type of perfect utopia.

What a fucking joke.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 4, 2011, 5:05 AM
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You like to bitch that Americans only think skydiving is in the US.... You are currently doing the same thing and assuming only your country counts.

Actually , I am merley pointing out that myself and many thousands of other skydiver from around the world are subject to different rules and regulations to america.

The arrogance an ignorance of americans on this website that think americans make up the larger proportion of skydivers in the world because a few dozen post whores form america make up the majority of the posts on this website, astounds me.

Yes there are alot of jumpers in the USA and there are a high proportion of americans on this website, but that does not mean the rest of the world should be excluded.

There are a couple of hundred more DZ's in europe alone as there are in the USA.

Remember that.

This is an international website.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 4, 2011, 5:12 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 4, 2011, 5:30 AM
Post #151 of 170 (681 views)
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Quote:
The arrogance an ignorance of americans on this website that think americans make up the larger proportion of skydivers in the world because a few dozen post whores form america make up the majority of the posts on this website, astounds me.

Again, the number of americans on this site is not the controlling factor. How about the fact that we have the longest history of sport skydiving, and equipment manufacturing and innovation, or is pointing that out just being arrogant.

The problem is not that I'm opposed to other countries, it's just that you are so jacked up on the NZ way, which everyone will admit is far from the norm in any other part of the world. When that's pointed out to you, you respond thusly -
Quote:
What you describe is FAR from normal. And a person that goes through a program like you describe might be ready at 100 jumps.... But that does not mean the normal average jumper would be.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It is pretty normal around here.


It's pretty normal around there? Fine, if that's the card you want to play, I have to point out that you're talking about a literal drop of water out of the sea of skydivers.

How many fun jumpers are there in your counrty, and by that I mean people (unlike you) who start jumping as a recreation, and not for a job? Nowhere else in the world do people 'take up' jumping as a job and do so with a structured training course. To use the people who do as any sort of yardstick for everyone else is retarded.

So what is the fun jumper population in NZ? How many of them do you know, and have tracked their progress as they learn to jump? How long you spent in any one place to even watch a jumper progress through several years in the sport?

I've been jumping at the same 2 or 3 local DZs for the last 16 years and watched between 20 and 30 new jumpers enter the sport each year. That's me at seasonal DZs that are only open 8 months out of the year. Take some of the other posters here who jump year round, and have also spent a decade or more in one location watching jumpers grow and develop. Between me and them, we're talking about watching literally 100's of jumpers from day one move through the sport. Are there even that many sport jumpers (non-professional) in NZ.

Again, pardon me for not using that as the yardstick to measure the rest of the much bigger picture.


Ron

Jan 4, 2011, 5:50 AM
Post #152 of 170 (676 views)
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Quote:
Actually , I am merley pointing out that myself and many thousands of other skydiver from around the world are subject to different rules and regulations to america.

The arrogance an ignorance of americans on this website that think americans make up the larger proportion of skydivers in the world because a few dozen post whores form america make up the majority of the posts on this website, astounds me.

Yes there are alot of jumpers in the USA and there are a high proportion of americans on this website, but that does not mean the rest of the world should be excluded.

There are a couple of hundred more DZ's in europe alone as there are in the USA. Remember that.

This is an international website.

*I* know all that... It seems you only think your opinion matters however.

Thinking only your situation and experience should count is showing arrogance.... No matter what Country you're from.


timmyfitz  (D License)

Jan 4, 2011, 6:23 AM
Post #153 of 170 (670 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Let it go, ryhs. The skygods posting here don't get it and never will.


Ron

Jan 4, 2011, 8:16 AM
Post #154 of 170 (649 views)
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Re: [timmyfitz] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Let it go, ryhs. The skygods posting here don't get it and never will.

What will people not get?

1. That NZ has a totally different program?
2. That a person who takes classes and focuses on something is not the norm for the rest of the skydiving population?
3. That with proper training almost anything can be done... But that does not mean it should be the standard WITHOUT the training?

Sheesh.


(This post was edited by Ron on Jan 4, 2011, 10:30 AM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jan 4, 2011, 11:59 AM
Post #155 of 170 (627 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

You are starting to look foolish.

Sparky


VincePetaccio  (B 35509)

Jan 4, 2011, 12:14 PM
Post #156 of 170 (620 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

rhys,

I don't know you, nor do I know anything about you. But, based on this post, I have to say that you're really sounding like a hypocrite.

I'm tired of hearing complaints about "arrogant Americans" stemming from the fact that, sometimes, things are done differently in the US than they are done in other places. Combine that with the influence that the US seems to have on sports, international policy, etc etc and suddenly people think that Americans are all elitist cowboys bent on destroying the paradigms abroad. Well, we're not. The only arrogance is coming from those who are so opposed to learning about the US way of life, or to even making the slightest effort to understand it.

I've been abroad. I've spent months in France, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Canada, and Mexico. I found that people, no matter where you are, are all the same. We all want the same things, we all smile when we laugh, and we all want to live when we skydive. How it happens, and where the rules come from is moot.

Jeez, I clicked on this thread to learn about camera flying.

(edited for grammarz)


(This post was edited by VincePetaccio on Jan 4, 2011, 12:15 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 4, 2011, 1:34 PM
Post #157 of 170 (597 views)
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Re: [VincePetaccio] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm tired of hearing complaints about "arrogant Americans" stemming from the fact that, sometimes, things are done differently in the US than they are done in other places. Combine that with the influence that the US seems to have on sports, international policy, etc etc and suddenly people think that Americans are all elitist cowboys bent on destroying the paradigms abroad. Well, we're not. The only arrogance is coming from those who are so opposed to learning about the US way of life, or to even making the slightest effort to understand it.

And not the oposng attitude that the US way is the best and only way that has been around the longest as america has contributed so much for the sport, and our world and our culture and has never overstepped the boundries.

I know all americans are not like that, I have many american friends, and in general americans have great personalities and morals.

Unfortunately however a few have decided that america is elite and anything less than the US standard is inadequate, unsafe and foolosh.

This pisses me off, and I may have overreacted a little but hey, I am allowed, am I not?

I'm sure if you met me in person you would have better first impression, it seems I am constantly being bombarded by bigotry here, and as much as it anoys me and leads to a reaction, I learn alot from these conversations, and I am sure I am not the only one.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 4, 2011, 1:34 PM)


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 4, 2011, 1:38 PM
Post #158 of 170 (591 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You americans really need to get over yourselves.

...

The ratio of sport and commercial skydiving here is completely different to the USA.

Yes we do shitloads of tandems, yes there are not that many sport skydivers and not all of them work in the industry.

There are about 100,000 tandems performed here annually give or take, most likely more these days (the growth is not slowing any).
...

Wow man, you really need to chill out on the crusade. I don't think most people are being arrogant at all about this subject. It's pretty clear that you're only interested in defending your national diploma training system. What I don't get is why you think that things that apply to people in that program to apply to the skydiver in general.

Also, I don't know, 100k is a lot, but like.. honestly the top 10 dz's in the US likely do that when put together. (Based on what I know about some operations). That doesn't even count all the mid-sized and small dropzones.

If you want to argue over the fact that your country is better than mine or whatever, I could care less. What I don't like having to read is posts that Average Joe Skydiver should strap on a camera helmet and jump with tandems at 100 jumps. A lot of your posts portray that picture and every time some new skydiver reads that here in the states who doesn't know that you mean that a skydiver going through an advanced training program should do that, some poor schumk aff instructor/S&TA/DZO is gonna have a pissed off newbie or a dead/injured newbie or a dead/injured by-standard. Don't you get that?


Ron

Jan 4, 2011, 1:42 PM
Post #159 of 170 (588 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
it seems I am constantly being bombarded by bigotry here

Where is the bull shit flag when you need it?????

YOU are the one saying how stupid America is.... I don't think a single person has said anything even remotely close about NZ.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 4, 2011, 1:56 PM
Post #160 of 170 (582 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the S+T forum. Please take patriotic/nationalist discussions somewhere else.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 4, 2011, 2:01 PM
Post #161 of 170 (583 views)
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Re: [Ron] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What will people not get?

1. That NZ has a totally different program?
2. That a person who takes classes and focuses on something is not the norm for the rest of the skydiving population?
3. That with proper training almost anything can be done... But that does not mean it should be the standard WITHOUT the training?

Sheesh.

We ave established that the USPA reccomendations are somewhat different to the NZ rules.

that is clear.

What is forgotten is the Australians, South Africans, Canadians, Russians, Ukranians, and whoever else has different rules for jumping a camera, deserve a voice too.

My point that seemed to be missed, is that even though the USA has a much higher proportion of jumpers than probably every other country in the world, those other countires as a whole represent much more of the global skydiving comunity than the USA ever will.

These people should be included here and and if they were, we would probably see more traffic from them in the future.

In reality, if someone that experiences a plethora of posts that contradict what they experience in their own country then they are not likely to take what they read here seriously. Such as myself.

That is a shame.

When they explain that things are different and then go on to be ridiculed and insulted by americans that seem to misunderstand that america does not represent the world and that many many thousands of people have, and continue to go through progressions that include jumping cameras from about 100 jumps, for example.

Then we end up with a conversation like this.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 4, 2011, 2:02 PM)


Ron

Jan 4, 2011, 2:16 PM
Post #162 of 170 (573 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My point that seemed to be missed

It is not missed... you just keep saying it is missed.

Quote:
These people should be included here and and if they were, we would probably see more traffic from them in the future.

There is no ban on anyone from anywhere joining this site.

Quote:
In reality, if someone that experiences a plethora of posts that contradict what they experience in their own country then they are not likely to take what they read here seriously. Such as myself.

And you are doing the EXACT same thing by assuming that anyone that does not agree with you has no valuable input.

Quote:
When they explain that things are different and then go on to be ridiculed and insulted by americans

The only place that happened is in your head.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jan 4, 2011, 3:12 PM
Post #163 of 170 (561 views)
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Re: [Ron] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
When they explain that things are different and then go on to be ridiculed and insulted by americans

Your wasting electrons, bandwidth and time.


VincePetaccio  (B 35509)

Jan 4, 2011, 3:47 PM
Post #164 of 170 (549 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunately however a few have decided that america is elite and anything less than the US standard is inadequate, unsafe and foolosh.

This pisses me off, and I may have overreacted a little but hey, I am allowed, am I not?

I agree that there a few who cover the rear window of their pickup truck with a banner of the US flag and tout the supremacy of the US, and I further agree that it is annoying, culturally insensitive, and pretty embarrassing. I totally empathize with you and I think you have every right to express yourself in that capacity.

However, I'm not convinced that it's a purely American phenomenon. Smile

I'll simply say that I do not believe the US methodologies to be better than those in NZ, or anywhere else for that matter. With that said, I'll also say that I don't think that the methodologies in NZ are better than those in the US.

different != better

Anyway, I'll go ahead and sheepishly tell a story that's actually related to camera flying.

Back in December, when I was in Sebastian, I was jumping with a FRIEND who was flying a GoPro (it wasn't even me flying it). And by "jumping with," I mean we were on the same load- I don't have my A yet.

My friend asked me a few times to check to make sure the light was blinking on his GoPro and that he was recording. Wouldn't you know it, with all that checking I forgot to buckle my helmet on, and lost it when I dove out the door. I blame the GoPro for distracting me, and myself for letting it.

Amazingly!! The helmet was recovered by a security guard, and didn't have a single scratch on it after falling 14,000 feet. Four days later it was on my head while I was snowboarding in Vermont. Cool


jrjny  (A License)

Jan 4, 2011, 7:17 PM
Post #165 of 170 (531 views)
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Re: [VincePetaccio] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My friend asked me a few times to check to make sure the light was blinking on his GoPro and that he was recording. Wouldn't you know it, with all that checking I forgot to buckle my helmet on, and lost it when I dove out the door. I blame the GoPro for distracting me, and myself for letting it.

I blame you man Tongue- I would delete that post, wtf. Next we'll be saying that the first [swoop] death of 2011 was caused by too much experience, but let's be abrasive around distinctions without a difference, eg. camera flying jump #'s lol.

Jeff


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 4, 2011, 7:40 PM
Post #166 of 170 (524 views)
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Re: [rhys] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

>My point that seemed to be missed, is that even though the USA has a
>much higher proportion of jumpers than probably every other country in
>the world, those other countires as a whole represent much more of the
>global skydiving comunity than the USA ever will.

>These people should be included here and and if they were, we would
>probably see more traffic from them in the future.

They are free to join. Since the US has more skydivers than any other country does, most of the people here are from the US.

They are also free not to join.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jan 4, 2011, 7:58 PM
Post #167 of 170 (518 views)
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Re: [billvon] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

I think everybody needs to relax and go jump. Follow the rules in whatever country you are jumping in. Really listen to the recommendations and suggestions others make, possibly to prevent a bad situation they have seen before. But don't always take everything you hear for gospel.


VincePetaccio  (B 35509)

Jan 4, 2011, 9:27 PM
Post #168 of 170 (504 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I blame you man Tongue- I would delete that post, wtf. Next we'll be saying that the first [swoop] death of 2011 was caused by too much experience, but let's be abrasive around distinctions without a difference, eg. camera flying jump #'s lol.

Jeff

wait... what? lol, not following you.

Now you know why I used the qualifier "sheepishly," haha. I'm not proud of it, but hopefully that little lesson can help somebody else!


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jan 5, 2011, 12:10 AM
Post #169 of 170 (491 views)
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Re: [VincePetaccio] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I blame you man Tongue- I would delete that post, wtf. Next we'll be saying that the first [swoop] death of 2011 was caused by too much experience, but let's be abrasive around distinctions without a difference, eg. camera flying jump #'s lol.

Jeff

wait... what? lol, not following you.

Now you know why I used the qualifier "sheepishly," haha. I'm not proud of it, but hopefully that little lesson can help somebody else!

I'm not getting that either.


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 5, 2011, 4:08 AM
Post #170 of 170 (473 views)
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Re: [VincePetaccio] Camera Flying [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree that there a few who cover the rear window of their pickup truck with a banner of the US flag and tout the supremacy of the US, and I further agree that it is annoying, culturally insensitive, and pretty embarrassing. I totally empathize with you and I think you have every right to express yourself in that capacity.

However, I'm not convinced that it's a purely American phenomenon. Smile

It sure isn't. it is a human phenomenon.



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