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"Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence "

 


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Nov 30, 2010, 2:47 AM
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"Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " Can't Post

http://www.news-journalonline.com/...ates-turbulence.html

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DELAND -- For the first time in Skydive DeLand's 29 years of business, a competitor is proposing to jump in on the action, leaving city officials with the task of figuring out how the two can safely coexist at the DeLand Municipal Airport.

Blue Sky Entertainment Inc. co-owner Joseph Richards is proposing a new sky-diving venture on the other side of the airport. The move could make the airport one of possibly only three in the country with multiple sky-diving companies operating from one airfield.

Richards, who has multiple partners in Blue Sky, has an option to sublet a hangar owned by a local businessman, but it would be up to the City Commission to approve the sublease because DeLand owns the property.

This is the first time city leaders have explored the idea of two sky-diving companies at the facility and there's nothing in city rules that prevents multiple parachute businesses there. As long as local procedures and flights are safe, the Federal Aviation Administration allows multiple sky-diving companies to fly out of the same airport, just as it does for various flight schools and airlines. But DeLand officials are concerned about the potential for conflicts with planes and parachutes.

City Manager Michael Pleus said DeLand has an obligation to be fair to both tenants, Skydive DeLand and Gus Spreng, who owns the 6,000-square-foot hangar that's been vacant about nine months.

"We've never contemplated two sky-diving operations at our airport so we've had to go to school to find out what it would take to allow them to operate," Pleus said.


FORMER BUSINESS PARTNERS


City staff is researching how the businesses are handled at other airports and will be preparing a report for the commission in December. In the meantime, Richards and the hangar owner have been asked to come up with an operating protocol that city officials expect Skydive DeLand to review and provide feedback.

"We can make it work if the parties involved want to make it work or it can be pretty ugly," said Keith Riger, city director of public services. "I think it can be done safely."

Cooperation looks like it's not going to come easily, though.

"I guess there could be an agreement. He's on one day and I'm on the next day. But I'm not in favor of that operation," said Bob Hallett, owner of Skydive DeLand, which operates daily.

Hallett recently told city commissioners he is concerned about the "limited" airspace over the airport for planes and parachutes.

"There's many opportunities out there in the free world to set up a business," Hallett said at a commission meeting. "I believe that their main reason for being in DeLand is not as a legitimate business, but to disrupt mine."

Hallett and Richards have a long business history. Hallett said he was a partner for 13 years with Freefall Express, which formerly provided aircraft in DeLand and Zephyrhills and currently does so in Gardiner, N.Y.

Richards and his brother, Bill, are shareholders in Freefall, and Hallett said he parted ways with the company about a decade ago.

According to a lawsuit filed in Pasco County, Bill Richards is suing a different sky-dive company in Zephyrhills to reinstate Freefall as a flight vendor. Skydive DeLand, meanwhile, is now providing aircraft for the same company, Hallett said.

Richards said he and his partners were looking for a public airport and community that already welcomed sky diving. The available hangar space, central location, tourism, established parachute companies and the "large" 1,600-acre airport all played a role in attracting the company here.

"We don't want to get into an argument with the people down there," he said. "All we want to do is go to an airport that has sky diving. It's a public access airport."


COMMUNICATION AMONG COMPETITORS


Richards said he understands why Hallett might not want him there. The logistics shouldn't be difficult, he said, but "the big issue there is that Bob (Hallett) doesn't want competition.

"As pilots we're going to communicate with each other so we can see and avoid each other," Richards said. "We'll be talking to all the necessary air traffic control facilities. We as jump pilots know when we release our sky divers how much time it takes at a certain altitude to drop the next load."

But Hallett said he doesn't think there's a market for competition at the DeLand airport.

"This is not a normal competitive environment. I think this is a basic compromise of safety," Hallett said.

Ed Scott, executive director of the U.S. Parachute Association, said it's unusual to have multiple sky-diving operations at one airport, but it can be done. Out of 230 airports registered with the association, two sky-diving businesses are at smaller airports in Hawaii and in Missouri.

It's probably rare for a few reasons, Scott said, such as whether the market can handle competition, airport size, landing area availability and space for hangars and buildings.

If the two sky-diving companies are going to share the same area, communication is key to safety, he said.

"It's got to be required and it's in the best interest of both businesses to make sure the pilots are communicating and the businesses are communicating just to minimize (physical) conflict," he said.

While pilots are usually mindful of each other, business owners in Hawaii and Missouri predict there will probably be some business conflict in DeLand.

Like DeLand, neither airport has a control tower. Owners said they do not have operating protocols for the businesses, which operate on a much smaller scale than Skydive DeLand's world-renowned facility.

Skydive Hawaii owner Frank Hinshaw said "devastating" price wars have been a big problem. Three sky-diving companies operated at the military-owned Dillingham Airfield in the 1990s and it's now down to two.

"It's certainly not as convenient as having the airfield all to yourself, but it's certainly manageable," said Hinshaw, who called his competitor a "colleague."

The companies share the same drop zone and landing area, he said. It would be "foolish" not to communicate, though there is always room for improvement, he said.

In Mount Vernon, Mo., Bob Feisthamel is suing his competitor, claiming trademark infringement, and the city of Mount Vernon for what he sees as giving the competitor preferential treatment.

The companies haven't gotten along for 15 years, but that doesn't stop them from communicating when they need to, he said.

"We're dropping pretty much in the same area, so whether I dislike the way someone operates their business, it cannot get in the way of safe operations," Feisthamel said.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 30, 2010, 5:59 AM
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
According to a lawsuit filed in Pasco County, Bill Richards is suing a different sky-dive company in Zephyrhills to reinstate Freefall as a flight vendor.

Crawling into bed with Richards may not be the way to go.


jumpwally  (D License)

Nov 30, 2010, 8:25 AM
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

This will be interesting......Unsure


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 30, 2010, 9:39 AM
Post #4 of 277 (7497 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

No it won't.
Billy Richards is simply trying to kick Bob in the nuts for helping out Skydive City.
Billy has lost every effort to kick Skydive City in the nuts.
I would expect the same results in Deland based simply on his history in Zephyrhills.
The man clearly holds evil grudges and has deep enough pockets to throw away money in anger.
Quite foolish and ridiculous in my mind.
Let if fucking go already.
Jebus Christ.
Crazy


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Nov 30, 2010, 9:44 AM
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

The City of Deland is just kidding themselves if they think they are dealing with the 'mild-mannered' Joe Richards - when in fact, his brother Bill Richards is the controlling interest in pretty much all the companies, Freefall Express, Blue Skies and whatever else they want to pretend they are part or not part of.

Bill Richards is currently suing Skydive City, myself, Joan Murphy, and Sue Perkins-Stark. Freefall Express has filed lawsuits against Tadpole Aviation LLC (my Cessna 182 company) and against Marko Jaakkola, the pilot who used to work for him, but now flies for us through Vertical Air.

I could fill hundreds of pages of legal crap here, but it is too much work. - maybe some day. Bill Richards (also a partner in Skydive City) testified in court here in Pasco County that Skydive City's lease with the City was in imminent jeopardy and that he is the only person who can save the corporation from being squandered away by the current management (me, Joannie and Sue).

Then when we finally got a vote at City Council to approve our new lease (Otober 25 of this year), Freefall Express's attorney, Joe Richards and Kay Hoiby-Griep showed up at the City Council meeting to try and block the lease from happening.

sheesh! Anyway, anyone who wants the real story on what is going on can read it between the lines (or call me)

TK


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 30, 2010, 9:47 AM
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

You put that a LOT nicer than I did!!!
Tongue

Thankfully, I have no legal interest in the matter.

I'd love to know how much money he has pissed away to date though. CrazyLaugh


Ron

Nov 30, 2010, 12:24 PM
Post #7 of 277 (7356 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Well it sure seems like Richards is just trying to hit back anyone he feels "wronged" him. There are plenty of areas he could open a winter DZ.

He could not get back at TK and Company, so he went after Hallett. I must say I LOVE seeing Bob flying in zhills... cracks me up. Smile


3331  (D 3331)

Nov 30, 2010, 2:49 PM
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Re: [all] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

The City has denied the request.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 30, 2010, 4:18 PM
Post #9 of 277 (7155 views)
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Re: [3331] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The City has denied the request.

My guess is that's not the end of the drama.
But what do I know?


mirage62  (C 15580)

Nov 30, 2010, 4:39 PM
Post #10 of 277 (7135 views)
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Re: [3331] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

"The City has denied the request."

This is the city of Deland? (I hope)

I've ALWAYS wanted to go up to the ranch. Just because of friends that have talked about it.....

I wouldn't go to the ranch now if they were giving $100 bills out with every jump.

Not that Billy would care. He's made a pile of money and if he wants to piss it away (some of it) to screw with Deland thats his business.

Fucked up though, guess where he get's his bucks is never ending cause business 101 teaches you not to screw with folks just cause you mad at them.

I can name 10 other places that would provide a better chance at a return. All Billy is doing is being a turd (is that a PA?)


(This post was edited by mirage62 on Nov 30, 2010, 4:41 PM)


gjhdiver  (D 7731)

Nov 30, 2010, 5:42 PM
Post #11 of 277 (7079 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
sheesh! Anyway, anyone who wants the real story on what is going on can read it between the lines (or call me)

TK

If I ever miss managing Z Hills, all I have to do is read this sort of stuff. I spent more time there dealing with spurious legal bullshit than skydiving.

Just keep on keepin' on kicking them in the nuts TK. They'll get the message eventually.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 30, 2010, 5:42 PM
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Re: [mirage62] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
All Billy is doing is being a turd (is that a PA?)

You've simply defined his action as 'being a turd'. I think a PA would be to say that 'Billy IS a turd'.


weekender  (C License)

Dec 1, 2010, 8:38 AM
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Re: [craigbey] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I see it completely different. Bill R no longer has a relationship with the current DZ. See's an opportunity to profit using his knowledge and experience from running a successful DZ and his former partnership in Deland. Seem's like a normal business cycle to me.


Before I'm attacked, a little why i see no biggie here. My experience is in banking. top bankers leave all the time to start their own banks to compete with former partners they disagree with. Same with funds. top fund managers and traders do the same after dissagreements. To me this is a very normal occurrence. I see no victim or villains here.




Hvance

Dec 1, 2010, 10:19 AM
Post #15 of 277 (6728 views)
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Re: [weekender] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I see it completely different. Bill R no longer has a relationship with the current DZ. See's an opportunity to profit using his knowledge and experience from running a successful DZ and his former partnership in Deland. Seem's like a normal business cycle to me.


Before I'm attacked, a little why i see no biggie here. My experience is in banking. top bankers leave all the time to start their own banks to compete with former partners they disagree with. Same with funds. top fund managers and traders do the same after dissagreements. To me this is a very normal occurrence. I see no victim or villains here.
I have no strong opinions here, but I would like to point out that when standard practices of American banking become the litmus test of business ethics, something has gone awry... Wink


skyrider  (D 14710)

Dec 1, 2010, 10:36 AM
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Re: [3331] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The City has denied the request.

Good....the airspace there would be a nightmare with two Dz's dropping people...I don't knwo how many times I was over the far end of the DZ diring nationals there!


weekender  (C License)

Dec 1, 2010, 11:19 AM
Post #17 of 277 (6689 views)
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Re: [Hvance] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

i understand your point and appreciate you delivering it with a smile.

hey at least im not a lawyer! (thats me directing the conversation about ethics away from my profession)


ManagingPrime

Dec 1, 2010, 12:00 PM
Post #18 of 277 (6647 views)
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Re: [Hvance] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have no strong opinions here, but I would like to point out that when standard practices of American banking become the litmus test of business ethics, something has gone awry... Wink

I'm in banking and you put it so much better than I could. SlyLaughSlyLaugh


mirage62  (C 15580)

Dec 1, 2010, 12:05 PM
Post #19 of 277 (6630 views)
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Re: [weekender] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
See's an opportunity to profit using his knowledge and experience from running a successful DZ and his former partnership in Deland. Seem's like a normal business cycle to me.

Yeah, I've got no big dog in this hunt but using your knowledge and experience (like starting a bank) in a over banked area when there are towns and locations that are way underbanked is the content of this.

This isn't done (or wasn't trying to be done) as a money making this is a great idea thing- IMO

Glad to hear the city killed it but I wouldn't think it was over by any means.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Dec 2, 2010, 9:34 AM
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Re: [craigbey] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You've simply defined his action as 'being a turd'. I think a PA would be to say that 'Billy IS a turd'.

He actually said 'Billy is being a turd' which probably qualifies as a PA. By using the gerund 'being' it gives a little wiggle room. It indicates that the opinion is based on past or current action and not future.

There is an argument to be made that the OP was of the opinion that Billy was unaware he was being a turd and that by enlightening him, and based on Billy being a wonderful human being, he would no longer continue turd like behaviour.

Reading the thread though, I am not sure than anyone other than Billy thinks he is a wonderful human being.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Dec 2, 2010, 7:35 PM
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Re: [DiverMike] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is an argument to be made that the OP was of the opinion that Billy was unaware he was being a turd and that by enlightening him, and based on Billy being a wonderful human being, he would no longer continue turd like behaviour.

So ... if Billy is not discouraged or dissuaded by such arguments and he continues his turd like behavior, can we say that he is 'undeturd'?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 3, 2010, 5:00 AM
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Re: [DiverMike] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

All these posts about turd/not turd, PA/not PA are getting to be rather tiresome. Give it a rest, eh?


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Dec 3, 2010, 5:17 AM
Post #23 of 277 (6182 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I know what turd is. What's PA?


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Dec 3, 2010, 6:05 AM
Post #24 of 277 (6160 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know what turd is. What's PA?

That's the loudspeaker you use to announce what a turd BR is. Sly


jumpwally  (D License)

Dec 3, 2010, 7:37 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly,,,and thats why PA's should be allowed. Short and sweet.....WinkTongueCool


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Dec 3, 2010, 8:19 AM
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Re: [jumpwally] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

So a P.A. is how a P.S.A. might be made, as one example?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 3, 2010, 9:10 AM
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Billy Richards is simply trying to kick Bob in the nuts for helping out Skydive City.
Billy has lost every effort to kick Skydive City in the nuts.
I would expect the same results in Deland based simply on his history in Zephyrhills.
The man clearly holds evil grudges and has deep enough pockets to throw away money in anger.

Between his past split with Deland, where he lost near half of his business, and his more recent split with Z-hills, where he again lost near half of his business, and the new development where Deland stepped into his old position as aircraft supplier to Z-hills, there is NO WAY that this is anything but a big F-U to Deland. He's already tried to F Z-hills to no avail, so he's just redirected his aim.

The idea that he wants to start a DZ is not all that far fetched. Let's face it, he already owns the aircraft, which is the biggest part of opening a DZ. In fact, if you owned a bunch of Otters, and had no place to use them, opening a DZ is probably a good way to get some utilization of the planes.

Seeing as how a rack of student and tandem rigs costs less than a hot section for one Otter engine, and that's all you really need to start a DZ (if you own the plane), it's not even that big of a financial risk. Even if the place tanks, it's not that hard to unload tandem and student rigs on the used market. Just like the plane is the biggest investment in opening a DZ, it's also the biggest liability in that you can't just up and sell an Otter at the drop of a hat. It might take time to find a buyer, or you have to offer it up at a loss, and the size of that loss might be equal to (or even exceed) the entire up front cost of all the gear needed to open a DZ. But again, if you already have the plane, you might as well open a DZ.

However, opening one on the same field where there is already an established and succesful DZ makes no sense at all (from a business perspective). Unless you planned to literally run the other DZ out of business, the nest you could hope for is about half of what that DZ already makes. Why would you want to spend the time to compete with the other DZ to gat half of their business, or the money to under-cut them for a few years to drive them out of business, if you're goal was to make money?

The answer is, you wouldn't. If you motive was something else, like just F-ing over the other DZ, then it makes perfect sense. If you were really just trying to make money, you would find your own unique location and simply establish your own DZ there. What about closer to Daytona? Lot's of tourists, ocean views, and no other DZ within 20 miles. That would be a place to open a DZ if you were really looking to just make money, and not kick another DZ in the nuts. Even closer to Orlando would be a better choice for a full time, multi turbine DZ. Close to tourists, close to the tunnel, close to orlando airport, again, a good idea for making money, but Billy is dead set on Deland Airport. It's stupid.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 3, 2010, 4:36 PM
Post #28 of 277 (2803 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Look on the bright side. We can do a reprint of those old Billy World t-shirts. It's my way or the highway.

I know it's a different Billy but WTF.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 8, 2010, 4:04 AM
Post #29 of 277 (2669 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

The City of Deland had another meeting on Monday I think - did anyone hear anything about it?


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 8, 2010, 6:41 AM
Post #30 of 277 (2607 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

It was continued, again.
Unsure

City of Deland Commission


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Dec 8, 2010, 6:56 AM
Post #31 of 277 (2591 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Unless you planned to literally run the other DZ out of business, the nest you could hope for is about half of what that DZ already makes.
So -- how many jumpers would go to a Richards operation if jump prices were $1 less than the current one? How about $2?

Wendy P.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on Dec 8, 2010, 6:56 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 8, 2010, 7:03 AM
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Re: [wmw999] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Here comes the issue.
The rumors have been half price. He is just trying to kick the businesses he feels screwed him over in the nuts.
He must have some deep pockets and an anger issue he can't let go of.
I would never patronize a business knowing this is their SOP.
Unimpressed


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 8, 2010, 7:20 AM
Post #33 of 277 (2569 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The rumors have been half price. He is just trying to kick the businesses he feels screwed him over in the nuts.
He must have some deep pockets and an anger issue he can't let go of.

Deep pockets, yeah, but part of that is owning the airplanes. It's without a doubt the single biggest cost in skydiving, and if you own your own aircraft, you have a lot more flexibility in how you run the show. If you own a fleet of them, and handle your own maintenence and have a warehouse full of spares already 'in the bank', you have even that much more freedom.

As far as who would go jump there for 1/2 price, I don't know. Maybe some visiting jumpers, but I can't imagine any of the locals or teams would break ranks go across the field. Deland has been very good to a large number of jumpers, and I'd imagine that would build some loyalty. Add to that the fact that Billy would clearly just be trying f-over Deland, I can't see too many jumpers taking the bait.

Even those that did, one slip on the part of the mangement would probably have them back over at Bob's in short order. There's a fair chance that Billy's commitment to customer service would be on par with their jump prices, about half of what you would expect elsewhere. He would have to do jumps for half price, while treating eveyone like a valued customer, and that's tough to do. When someone is putting money in your pockets (like at a regualr price DZ) it's easy to be nice and treat them with respect. When someone is costing you money (or even just breaking even), week after week, it get's tough to keep that smile on your face when a customer mentions the toilets are backed up again.

I know it's wishful thinking, but I would love to see all jumpers stand their ground, and not go for this mafia-style bullshit, and have the 'new' DZ be a ghost town. Of course, the Skyride saga has shown that there will always be jumpers willing to play ball, and instructors willing to take anything they can get.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 8, 2010, 7:29 AM
Post #34 of 277 (2556 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know it's wishful thinking, but I would love to see all jumpers stand their ground, and not go for this mafia-style bullshit, and have the 'new' DZ be a ghost town. Of course, the Skyride saga has shown that there will always be jumpers willing to play ball, and instructors willing to take anything they can get.


Ding ding ding...we have a winner.


Amazon  (D License)

Dec 8, 2010, 7:30 AM
Post #35 of 277 (2555 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I liked that last paragraph... I am kind of surprised that the two organizations have not merged since it seems they have similar business practices to get a swell "family" together Sicilian style.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Dec 8, 2010, 7:46 AM
Post #36 of 277 (2549 views)
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Re: [Amazon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I liked that last paragraph... I am kind of surprised that the two organizations have not merged since it seems they have similar business practices to get a swell "family" together Sicilian style.

Larry would then own another DZ. fleet of Planes and a lot more equipment as well.

Matt


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Dec 8, 2010, 7:58 AM
Post #37 of 277 (2542 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know it's wishful thinking, but I would love to see all jumpers stand their ground, and not go for this mafia-style bullshit, and have the 'new' DZ be a ghost town.

In my experience, Bob and his staff have treated me and my friends quite well. After finding out what kind of person Billy Richards is through his dealings with Z-hills and now this, there's no way I would go and jump at any dz he opens at Deland.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 8, 2010, 8:37 AM
Post #38 of 277 (2518 views)
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or any other airport for that matter.
Wink


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Dec 8, 2010, 8:41 AM
Post #39 of 277 (2508 views)
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Correct!


Ron

Dec 8, 2010, 9:13 AM
Post #40 of 277 (2493 views)
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Quote:
After finding out what kind of person Billy Richards is through his dealings with Z-hills and now this, there's no way I would go and jump at any dz he opens at Deland.

Most will not.... But all it takes is a quick read on the thread "FAA to fine Lodi $664,000 " to see that some people only care about the bottom dollar.

If Richards really wanted to get into the FL market.... There are plenty of areas he could open a DZ.... Umatilla was for sale last I checked.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 8, 2010, 9:15 AM
Post #41 of 277 (2500 views)
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I hear Lake Wales is pretty much vacant as well.
Tongue


skyrider  (D 14710)

Dec 8, 2010, 10:05 AM
Post #42 of 277 (2470 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I know it's wishful thinking, but I would love to see all jumpers stand their ground, and not go for this mafia-style bullshit, and have the 'new' DZ be a ghost town.

In my experience, Bob and his staff have treated me and my friends quite well. After finding out what kind of person Billy Richards is through his dealings with Z-hills and now this, there's no way I would go and jump at any dz he opens at Deland.

He banned me for life..Mad But, after I left the DZ, he heard how the fight I was invoved in started, and went out of his way to contact me , to let me know I was welcome....(A punk tried to hit me with his van, in the parking lot...I broke my hand on his skull, then did some body work on his van with his head)

Bobs pretty kewl, Old school yet still a business man!


(This post was edited by skyrider on Dec 8, 2010, 10:06 AM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 8, 2010, 2:13 PM
Post #43 of 277 (2397 views)
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That's not true. Should I feel special?


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Dec 8, 2010, 3:14 PM
Post #44 of 277 (2351 views)
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Quote:
That's not true. Should I feel special?

I took that to mean any of Billy Richard's dz's, not just any dz. At least, that's what I meant.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 8, 2010, 4:00 PM
Post #45 of 277 (2333 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
That's not true. Should I feel special?

I took that to mean any of Billy Richard's dz's, not just any dz. At least, that's what I meant.

You could have just said I was special. Unimpressed


mirage62  (C 15580)

Dec 8, 2010, 6:29 PM
Post #46 of 277 (2275 views)
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I wouldn't walk an additional 10 steps to jump at Billy's dz even if the jumps were half price...

But I suspect it wouldn't be the fun jumpers that would respond. It might be the tandems....

In any event X amount of time as a previous poster stated and the joy of getting even wears thin to the amount of money one is losing by performing dumb ass things


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 8, 2010, 7:14 PM
Post #47 of 277 (2265 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I liked that last paragraph... I am kind of surprised that the two organizations have not merged since it seems they have similar business practices to get a swell "family" together Sicilian style.

Larry would then own another DZ. fleet of Planes and a lot more equipment as well.

Matt

Maybe he can use it all to pay off the judgement against SkyRice? Angelic

Sparky


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 9, 2010, 4:35 AM
Post #48 of 277 (2207 views)
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The day after the meeting in Deland (Monday right?), that Billy shows up at Z-Hills, with his brother Joe (who is supposedly opening the Deland dropzone, not Billy), and Tom Dessert, Freefall Express' mechanic, Marius Ivascu, two body guards, one of their many attorneys, and a locksmith and attempted to take over our aircraft hangar.

police, hours of pain in the ass, and in the end, they left with a bunch of parts and stuff from the hangar. (which is still filled with Freefall Express stuff)

Bill Richards recently 'gave' one share each of his Skydive City shares to his brother Joe and Tom Dessert, making them now shareholders of Skydive City, albeit, small shareholders.


MakeItHappen

Dec 9, 2010, 5:15 AM
Post #49 of 277 (2169 views)
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In reply to:
The day after the meeting in Deland (Monday right?), that Billy shows up at Z-Hills, with his brother Joe (who is supposedly opening the Deland dropzone, not Billy), and Tom Dessert, Freefall Express' mechanic, Marius Ivascu, two body guards, one of their many attorneys, and a locksmith and attempted to take over our aircraft hangar.

police, hours of pain in the ass, and in the end, they left with a bunch of parts and stuff from the hangar. (which is still filled with Freefall Express stuff)

Bill Richards recently 'gave' one share each of his Skydive City shares to his brother Joe and Tom Dessert, making them now shareholders of Skydive City, albeit, small shareholders.

Send FFE an eviction notice & bill for parts storage and then put their stuff out on the curb.

.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 9, 2010, 5:21 AM
Post #50 of 277 (2163 views)
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It may very well be that easy, but... hard to explain it all here, but we are heading in that direction at least......


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 9, 2010, 5:45 AM
Post #51 of 277 (2764 views)
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Hang in there TK, you'll get through this.
Skydive City is NOT in the wrong here!


SRI85  (D License)

Dec 9, 2010, 5:52 AM
Post #52 of 277 (2758 views)
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since your choosing to discuss it on a public forum, can you explain it a little better?

if you have to evict somebody, i would assume that means they are rentin? and that guy can obviously pay his bills. So why would he need to pick a lock to get into something he is renting.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 9, 2010, 5:54 AM
Post #53 of 277 (2753 views)
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Freefall Express has never had a 'rental agreement' in place with Skydive City for the aircraft hangar. Actually, in the 15 years I have been at Skydive City, I have never seen any written agreement of any kind between Skydive City and Freefall Express.


bsbd_forever

Dec 16, 2010, 10:56 AM
Post #54 of 277 (2516 views)
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From BSR recent Newsletter:

(I believe in the community, not DZO BS. Just wanted to put this out there since it is in front of some BSR jumpers.)

Quote:
FREEFALL EXPRESS VS SKYDIVE CITY @ ZHILLS

There has been a lot of gossip going on about the situation at Zhills. Dropzone.com and various others are completely misinforming the public and it is time for Freefall Express to finally speak about the situation so that the rumors and slander stop.

First - Yes, we are in the process of trying to open another DZ at Zhills. Here is why.

What we will report are the facts that can be easily proven through records and court proceedings. Most of you know that Freefall Express has been supplying Skydive City with aircraft and employees for many years. Freefall Express implemented a change in the pricing structure to eliminate inefficiencies in loading and flying the aircraft. Instead of abiding by the verbal contract, TK Hayes chose to lease aircraft from various other competitors, including Sky's the Limit and Deland, eliminating the need for our otters any longer. FFE owns two critical pieces that help run Skydive City: the fuel farm and the hangar. They invested thousands of dollars in this in order for Skydive CIty to comply with the terms for obtaining a lease extension on the land that they are located on, this not only Skydive City and FFE to keep operating, but also the Sunshine Factory, the Hard Dock Cafe, the Sunset Bar and Paragone Rigging. FFE also provided Skydive City with interest-free loans in the startup years to keep them established.

TK Hayes has lost the plot. He has cut the locks off the fuel farm and stole and excess of $27,000.00 from us and then proceeded to commandeer the hangar that was built by FFE, locking up all of FFE's equipment. In addition, Zhills has been putting jumpers in imminent danger by violating FAA regs.

Our DZO's have had to repeatedly travel to Zhills to take back what is rightfully theirs and have spent numerous hours in court and thousands in legal fees. In addition, several key personnel who we love very much have lost their jobs. This is a very bad situation and it is poisoning any relationship that The Ranch has with ZHills as well as Deland. Although in the past Ranch Hands have typically visited there for the holidays, this will not be so any longer. People are starting to reschedule vacations and we don't blame them.The good vibe at Zhills has been lost. Even the Europeans are not going there in the number they used to.

More people are traveling over to Sebastian since it is a much nicer DZ, close to the beach and has numerous hotels (much nicer than the ones at Zhills) and they still have availability with skydiver rates. In addition, there is a lot more to do during non-jumping hours, from proximity to beach, amusements and nightlife. Even though many people are flying into Tampa, for loyalty reasons they have changed course: they are driving over to the East Coast to jump there instead so before you go, you may want to talk to the others since the game plans have changed and a lot of us are doing the East Coast this year.


Krip  (Student)

Dec 16, 2010, 11:51 AM
Post #55 of 277 (2478 views)
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I suspect this situation will be evently solved by the court's and lawyers eventuallyPirate

Why all the drama in a public forum with all the he said she said.Frown


JohnRich  (D License)

Dec 16, 2010, 12:03 PM
Post #56 of 277 (2468 views)
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In reply to:
First - Yes, we are in the process of trying to open another DZ at Zhills. Here is why.

I still don't get it. Even if everything you say about Z-Hills is true, that doesn't explain why you are opening a new DZ at Deland. Okay, so you want to operate your planes somewhere to make money - that's all well and good. But why at that particular location where there is already a drop zone, which has no bearing on what happened at Z-Hills. None of your message explains that. It looks like you're trying to punish Deland for what Z-Hills did... Please explain why you chose that location.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Dec 16, 2010, 12:05 PM)


Rick  (D 28557)

Dec 16, 2010, 12:46 PM
Post #57 of 277 (2434 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
First - Yes, we are in the process of trying to open another DZ at Zhills. Here is why.

I still don't get it. Even if everything you say about Z-Hills is true, that doesn't explain why you are opening a new DZ at Deland. Okay, so you want to operate your planes somewhere to make money - that's all well and good. But why at that particular location where there is already a drop zone, which has no bearing on what happened at Z-Hills. None of your message explains that. It looks like you're trying to punish Deland for what Z-Hills did... Please explain why you chose that location.


Bob leased his aircraft to Skydive CityUnimpressed


gjhdiver  (D 7731)

Dec 16, 2010, 1:06 PM
Post #58 of 277 (2413 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
First - Yes, we are in the process of trying to open another DZ at Zhills. Here is why.

I still don't get it. Even if everything you say about Z-Hills is true, that doesn't explain why you are opening a new DZ at Deland. Okay, so you want to operate your planes somewhere to make money - that's all well and good. But why at that particular location where there is already a drop zone, which has no bearing on what happened at Z-Hills. None of your message explains that. It looks like you're trying to punish Deland for what Z-Hills did... Please explain why you chose that location.

Name recognition essentially. It's a lot easier to run a drop zone off an established airport than start afresh somewhere else.

We should all remember too, that FFE was instrumental in starting up Skydive City as a competitor to George Kabeller's Phoenix Parachute Center, so we can't really get too worked up about thew morals of the situation if we are honest with ourselves. Part of the reason Billy started Skydive City with Sunshine Factory was to have somewhere to fly his planes, and somewhere for them to sell gear.

When I was manager there, it was a friggin' nightmare to be honest, trying to avoid conflict with the other operation there, and FFE is correct in saying that they extended us a huge amount of credit on things like A/C leasing and fuel because we were essentially broke most of the time.

However, bearing in mind that the only reason they did all of that was to have somewhere to fly, it doesn't surprise me in the least that they would turn on Skydive City if they sourced aircraft from somewhere else. The circumstances of gaining access to Z Hills airport for another operation might be a whole lot different now. I don't think the city is ready to go through the in-fighting and political nonsense that they went through during the Skydive City/Phoenix wars.

Just to back TK up on another point. He's correct in stating that there was no solid legal arrangement with FFE. During my time as manager, it was all done by word of mouth also, and I never saw any written agreement between the two companies. It was just presumed that as Billy was a director and co-owner of each, it wasn't necessary.

The sooner Billy disentangles himself from Skydive City and gives up, the better it will be for him and everyone else involved. Skydive City has weathered worse, and it will weather this.


NYKid  (C 99999)

Dec 16, 2010, 2:05 PM
Post #59 of 277 (2370 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The day after the meeting in Deland (Monday right?), that Billy shows up at Z-Hills, with his brother Joe (who is supposedly opening the Deland dropzone, not Billy), and Tom Dessert, Freefall Express' mechanic, Marius Ivascu, two body guards, one of their many attorneys, and a locksmith and attempted to take over our aircraft hangar.

police, hours of pain in the ass, and in the end, they left with a bunch of parts and stuff from the hangar. (which is still filled with Freefall Express stuff)

Bill Richards recently 'gave' one share each of his Skydive City shares to his brother Joe and Tom Dessert, making them now shareholders of Skydive City, albeit, small shareholders.

Send FFE an eviction notice & bill for parts storage and then put their stuff out on the curb.

.

Hello Jan Meyer,



Am I correct in assuming you may represent us on the United States Board of Directors as a National Candidate? If so, how the hell can you take a stance in a civil dispute between two dropzones. Mind you, I am certain both are USPA dropzones. So it is safe to say, you will not remain neutral and listen to all of the facts before you open your mouth in a public forum advising a USPA dropzone owner be kicked to the curb? This is exactly why I didnít vote for you, and I encouraged others not to; you canít keep your mouth shut. You just canít help it. You may have a well known name across the country due to your years of service or even your involvement in formation jumping but you are far from politically correct. It is my understanding from people who were on the board that you opening your mouth was a Direct reason that the settlement against USPA had to be negotiated prior to any trial. And yes I understand that the insurance company absorbed the settlement but that is a very callus point of view. As a national director, I am hoping for a more professional stance on issues that come to your attention. I am shocked and appalled at your suggestion. I think if this were a sporting event you would receive an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. Please explain.


NYKid  (C 99999)

Dec 16, 2010, 2:22 PM
Post #60 of 277 (2355 views)
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In reply to:
Freefall Express has never had a 'rental agreement' in place with Skydive City for the aircraft hangar. Actually, in the 15 years I have been at Skydive City, I have never seen any written agreement of any kind between Skydive City and Freefall Express.

So what you are saying is: Billy just showed up with his planes and you said ok ill use them. Why did you two not have an agreement? If thats the case. Whats the problem then? Itís obvious that Billy is upset about something.



Iím sorry to say, skydiving is a business. This happens in our great country all of the time, it is called Capitalism. Sorry to offend any left wing liberal socialists here. Home depot and Lowe's do business up the block from each other across our country. I call bullshit when I see it and, TK, Iím sorry you are going through this. I am truly sincere. If you are going to have partners that help start your business, you might want to get agreements in writing. I think you did the same thing that's happening to you, to the past DZ. The old saying, what comes around goes around.



As far as this thread. If this is not a personal attack on the Richards then I dont know what is... Shame on you DROPZONE.com and its monitors for allowing this to go this far. I predict one of those little locks to appear next to this thread in the very near future.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 16, 2010, 4:17 PM
Post #61 of 277 (2305 views)
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Umm..the thread was STARTED by one of those monitors. Wink


NYKid  (C 99999)

Dec 16, 2010, 5:00 PM
Post #62 of 277 (2279 views)
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In reply to:
Umm..the thread was STARTED by one of those monitors. Wink

No really! You dont say. Thanks for stating the obvious. That was to let people know whats going on.... Not to go on a bashing of one DZO or another. To be honest I can care less who bashes who on here. I rarely come on here because of this double standard of people that dont even skydive. What happened to shut the fuck up and jump!

Listen their are three sides to every story and you are getting one side here. TK's side and for him to come on here a state that there were no agreements is bullshit.[edit: personal attack removed. Craig. ]

Why would you do business without a agreement. Even further this whole situation is because both parties didn't agree on terms and parted ways. So I guess TK is full of shit because there must of been some sort of agreement for them to disagree in the first place.

You want to talk facts go right ahead. It makes for good reading. If not let the courts figure this out and lets skydive instead of posting bullshit online Crazy
Have a great day!


(This post was edited by cpoxon on Dec 17, 2010, 12:25 AM)


gjhdiver  (D 7731)

Dec 16, 2010, 5:24 PM
Post #63 of 277 (2261 views)
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In reply to:

So I guess TK is full of shit because there must of been some sort of agreement for them to disagree in the first place.

Well, someone is, but it's not TK. He wasn't present when the business started in late 1992. Jerry Bird was the first manager, then Matt O'Gwinn, then me, then TK. TK is not responsible for way that the verbal agreement was made to supply aircraft and fuel. He just has to deal with the fallout. If anyone made the mistake here, it's FFE, as they have little or no recourse to force Skydive City to use them for aircraft support.

Billy doesn't really have much of a dog in this race. The best he can do is to try to start a new DZ at both DeLand and Z Hills. Good luck with that.

Oh, and you're clearly a ranch hand, it shouldn't bother you too much. Remember, you guys aren't going there any more, remember ?


NYKid  (C 99999)

Dec 16, 2010, 5:30 PM
Post #64 of 277 (2249 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

So I guess TK is full of shit because there must of been some sort of agreement for them to disagree in the first place.

Well, someone is, but it's not TK. He wasn't present when the business started in late 1992. Jerry Bird was the first manager, then Matt O'Gwinn, then me, then TK. TK is not responsible for way that the verbal agreement was made to supply aircraft and fuel. He just has to deal with the fallout. If anyone made the mistake here, it's FFE, as they have little or no recourse to force Skydive City to use them for aircraft support.

Billy doesn't really have much of a dog in this race. The best he can do is to try to start a new DZ at both DeLand and Z Hills. Good luck with that.

Oh, and you're clearly a ranch hand, it shouldn't bother you too much. Remember, you guys aren't going there any more, remember ?

Sebastian here I come.Cool


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 16, 2010, 5:41 PM
Post #65 of 277 (2240 views)
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http://www.tampabay.com/...dive-city-in/1103581

I would think Billy's logic would be that if he owns the fuel farm and the hangar then that'd be a great reason to have a DZ at that airport i.e. existing infrastructure. That'd be my guess anyway.

I've been to zhills a couple of times for the christmas/new year boogie. For unrelated (to this thread) reasons I'm not going this year.

Like has been said, there's always 3 sides to a story, just because TK (who was always awesome when I was down there) is posting here, doesn't mean his is the only side of the story. I find it difficult to reconcile what TK has said in this thread and what I've read in the news.

Full disclosure: I'm a ranch hand, born and bred - and proud of it. Wink


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Dec 16, 2010, 5:46 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 16, 2010, 6:41 PM
Post #66 of 277 (2204 views)
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Quote:
FFE owns two critical pieces that help run Skydive City: the fuel farm and the hangar.

He has cut the locks off the fuel farm and stole and excess of $27,000.00 from us and then proceeded to commandeer the hangar that was built by FFE, locking up all of FFE's equipment

Here's why this is hard to believe - for starters, TK doesn't own Skydive City outright. He has partners he has to deal with, so for him to switch aircraft providers, a majority of those partners have to agree. From what I understand, a majority of those partners were present at the time the verbal agreements were made, so the switch in providers was made with all knowledge of all previous agreements.

On that subject, the term of a verbal agreement is often unspecified, and any business person who enters into such an agreement does so at the risk of the term ending at any point. This goes for both sides, as Skydive City could have found itself without an aircraft provider at the drop of a hat if Billy felt he had a better option for his planes.

Back to the story, with regards to the fuel farm, the hanger, and the 'theft' of $27,000 worth of fuel. Again, as mentioned above, Skydive City is a partnership, and if the plan upon droping FFE as a provider involved breaking and entering, and grand larceny, I have trouble believing that they would have went forward with that plan. If FFE truely owned the fuel farm and hanger, it would have been an issue that would have needed to be resolved before dumping FFE as a provider.

Let's face it, the fuel farm and hanger are simply real estate, so somebody hold either legal title or a current lease from the title holder. If FFE holds either, all they need to do is step forward, and have trespassers arrested. Seeing as how they haven't done so, I find it hard to believe that they truely own either. While a verbal agreement might exist between a business and a service provider, I can't see an airport leasing any part of itself to anyone on a verbal basis, or the owner of an adjecent plot of land doing the same. Legally it belongs to someone, and that person gets to call the shots as to who is permitted there, and what they do.

In terms of the 'theft' of fuel, stealing $27,000 worth of fuel would be a felony. All of the partners would have had to agree to a felonious course of action if we're to buy the story being told here. Beyond that, the legal owner of the land and fuel would have to let that theft slide without the immediate involvment of law enforcement. When was the last time you heard of anyone knowingly allowing someone (especially someone they don't like) to tresspass on their land and steal $27,000 worth of property without taking action.

What would make a lot more sense is that FFE played it loose and easy with the paperwork for years, and now it's biting them in the ass. No contracts, no leases, nothing to back up their claims, leaving the court to sift through some 20 years of 'verbal' dealings with several different partners and managers, and sort out who is entitled to what.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 16, 2010, 6:56 PM
Post #67 of 277 (2186 views)
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that is a reasonably accurate summation.


Ron

Dec 16, 2010, 7:23 PM
Post #68 of 277 (2159 views)
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Quote:
So what you are saying is: Billy just showed up with his planes and you said ok ill use them. Why did you two not have an agreement? If thats the case. Whats the problem then?

And if Billy chooses to change the rates, then TK is free to find another supplier. Billy wanted to change the "deal" so TK was free to change his part as well.

Quote:
Itís obvious that Billy is upset about something.

Yes, that he tried to change the rules and was surprised when it didn't work.

Quote:
Iím sorry to say, skydiving is a business. This happens in our great country all of the time, it is called Capitalism.

Yes, and when person 'A' tries to get more than person 'B' thinks the deal is worth.... then 'B' is free to shop somewhere else. That is what Capitalism is.


freefalle  (D 27777)

Dec 16, 2010, 10:12 PM
Post #69 of 277 (2105 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't care too much about the politics. Personally, if this guy wants to open a DZ I don't understand why he doesn't look at Flagler airport, they used to have a DZ there and with the closing of many of their flight schools and Ginn pulling their a/c out after going under I think it would be a great place to open a DZ. N.S.B. is another palce, thats a nice airport with not much going on.

My point is there are other places to open that would probably welcome the buisness so why chose to go to an airport with an established DZ unless your just trying to stir shit up.

All that being said, if he wants to open a DZ in Deland, and the airport will have him then nobody really has much to say about it. it's done in every other industry in America. Find a Mcdonalds you can almost count with in a block you'll find a burger king and a wendy's. Find a bank, you'll find 2 more of different branches find a bar... etc.

I understand some people have an issue with this guy, but capitalism is capitalism...
Would I go to this guys dropzone? yea I might check it out and if he's not a dick, and his DZ managers not a dick and the jumps are cheaper, I might go back.

If I want to buy a car and their are two dealerships within a block of eachother I am going to check them both out. Who ever gives me the best price, and good service is going to get my business. Competition is good for any market, including skydiving.

It's easy to ponitficate and say "I think he is a asshat and I will never go to his DZ" but the reality is if the dropzone opens and offers the same service (skdiving) at a cheaper price people WILL go. I guess.....


Krip  (Student)

Dec 17, 2010, 1:51 AM
Post #70 of 277 (2080 views)
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Re: [bsbd_forever] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi BSBD

Your post said "Freefall Express implemented a change in the pricing structure to eliminate inefficiencies in loading and flying the aircraft."

While it sounds innocent enough it raised a red flag for me. Full disclosure I don't have a dog in this fight, don't jump anymore etc won't be going to florida etc.

I was there when George Kabella tried very hard to do exactly what BW wants "Freefall Express implemented a change in the pricing structure to eliminate inefficiencies in loading and flying the aircraft.

On the 15 minute call all peeps had to be geared up waiting for the plane in the hot florida sun. When the plane landed jumpers were stongly encouraged to Run to the airplane. The plane started it's TO roll before everyone was even seated.

Please don't ask about seat belts or having a few people from the back of the plane walk to the front and stand up on T.O. due to CG issues" I was one of those idiots standing up next to the pilot looking at the windshieldCrazy

OTOH skydive was more jumper friendly. No waiting in the hot sun, no running to the airplane. We had 2 LO's for walk up loads for different experience levels and free video. Standing up on T.O. was still the standard in the sport.

No When eloy ges to LP for Boogie they want you next to the runway so the plane doesn't have to wait for the slow pokes. But they also provide shade and water in the waiting area (Thank you Larry Hill and Mr Burke, and Fred Sands)

Now everyone has to wear a seatbelt on T.O. thats a good thing, but a bunch of skydiver paid with their lives for that change due to the tragedy at Perris.

Can't stand up on T.O when your wearing a seat belt so the CG issue was BS unless in a effort to eliminate the ineffiency off haveing to refuel too often or it helped the rate of climb on T.O.

How many jumpers can fit on a a airplane? Regardless of the size of the plane at least one more to make it uncomfortable for the jumpers and efficient for the DZ. We're not just talking cessna's all the way up to the 727 and c-130's.

Proper use of the english language (and spelling) works wonders. Wink

FWIW Sometime after TK took over Z-hills eliminated one LO, free video was eliminated and the remaining LO collected a $1 from the peeps on his load.

If you have to feed your habit that you have to pay the price and take what ever crap they throw at you.

The originial R.I.P.


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 17, 2010, 7:27 AM
Post #71 of 277 (2043 views)
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Re: [Krip] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
CG issue was BS unless in a effort to eliminate the ineffiency off haveing to refuel too often or it helped the rate of climb on T.O.

Forward CG increases takeoff distance and decreases rate of climb (very slightly). There'd be no advantage other than to bring the CG within margins if necessary.

Dave


gofastgirl

Dec 20, 2010, 8:23 AM
Post #72 of 277 (1833 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!! You are accuse the wrong person because the FAA found out YOU WAS FLIYNG ILLEGALLY, without commercial licences and your medical was due since a long time ago. You think you are a good manenger but you are never do your job when one of your employe rob more than 100 000$. Who paid for that trial? The 3 owners of the compagny (yes that include Billy Richard) and your not one of them!!! At that moment the only person who make money on the worst friendly drop zone it's you. I hope you will be kick out sone and that drop zone will be what it be FRIENDLY without TROUBLE MACKER AS YOU!!!


skyrider  (D 14710)

Dec 20, 2010, 8:29 AM
Post #73 of 277 (1819 views)
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Re: [gofastgirl] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!! You are accuse the wrong person because the FAA found out YOU WAS FLIYNG ILLEGALLY, without commercial licences and your medical was due since a long time ago. You think you are a good manenger but you are never do your job when one of your employe rob more than 100 000$. Who paid for that trial? The 3 owners of the compagny (yes that include Billy Richard) and your not one of them!!! At that moment the only person who make money on the worst friendly drop zone it's you. I hope you will be kick out sone and that drop zone will be what it be FRIENDLY without TROUBLE MACKER AS YOU!!!

So...You just joined us to make that one post...Now if we only knew who it is aimed at...it might make sense!Unsure


jsreznor  (C 38889)

Dec 20, 2010, 8:39 AM
Post #74 of 277 (1808 views)
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Re: [skyrider] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Well that's easy. It's aimed at TK and how he's run Zhills for the past three years.


gofastgirl

Dec 20, 2010, 9:25 AM
Post #75 of 277 (1780 views)
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Re: [jsreznor] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Some just don't care about the truth and some just don't care about the troubles....always tow side of story... if some want just the one...SO keep it like that.....No one is a God on that earth


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 20, 2010, 9:34 AM
Post #76 of 277 (1604 views)
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Re: [gofastgirl] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

and some prefer to twist the truth to their liking.
Crazy


JohnRich  (D License)

Dec 20, 2010, 9:48 AM
Post #77 of 277 (1592 views)
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Re: [skyrider] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!! You are accuse the wrong person because the FAA found out YOU WAS FLIYNG ILLEGALLY, without commercial licences and your medical was due since a long time ago. You think you are a good manenger but you are never do your job when one of your employe rob more than 100 000$. Who paid for that trial? The 3 owners of the compagny (yes that include Billy Richard) and your not one of them!!! At that moment the only person who make money on the worst friendly drop zone it's you. I hope you will be kick out sone and that drop zone will be what it be FRIENDLY without TROUBLE MACKER AS YOU!!!

So...You just joined us to make that one post...Now if we only knew who it is aimed at...it might make sense!Unsure

Here's what she's saying: There seems to be a continuing run of problems at TK's drop zone:

- Aircraft lease problems.
- Hanger ownership problems.
- Flying without a proper license problems.
- Not noticing $100k employee theft problem.

At some point, you start to wonder if all of these don't have drop zone management as the root cause...

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with that line of reasoning, but I can see the argument, which is what she seems to be making.

It could be argued that with proper legal agreements, attention to FAA licensing, and monitoring of accounting, that none of these would have become sensational issues, and we wouldn't be talking about them here in this forum.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Dec 20, 2010, 9:51 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 20, 2010, 10:03 AM
Post #78 of 277 (1570 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

There doesn't appear to be any aircraft lease issues - the last company wanted to change the agreement so they were fired and replaced - no problem!
If I understand the hangar details - it goes with the lease of the property from the airport/city. The company that was fired has taken their sweet ass time on getting their property out of it.
TK owned up to the licensing issue - which was a simple misunderstanding anyway.
The theft WAS noticed by the bookkeeper and the authorities were notified at that time.

These would not have become 'sensational issues' had the fired company not cried like a bitch when they were fired.


Amazon  (D License)

Dec 20, 2010, 10:35 AM
Post #79 of 277 (1545 views)
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Re: [gofastgirl] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!! You are accuse the wrong person because the FAA found out YOU WAS FLIYNG ILLEGALLY, without commercial licences and your medical was due since a long time ago. You think you are a good manenger but you are never do your job when one of your employe rob more than 100 000$. Who paid for that trial? The 3 owners of the compagny (yes that include Billy Richard) and your not one of them!!! At that moment the only person who make money on the worst friendly drop zone it's you. I hope you will be kick out sone and that drop zone will be what it be FRIENDLY without TROUBLE MACKER AS YOU!!!


If you do not care for any DZ in Florida.. by all means there is always another one just down the road. There really is no need to get your panties all twisted up ... head for one of the 20 or so other DZ's.

You can feel free to leave and go elsewhere when your home DZ up New Yark way is all icy and cold.

Instead I see a hell of a lot of stupid childish vindictive crap coming from a certain group of people.


skyrider  (D 14710)

Dec 20, 2010, 10:40 AM
Post #80 of 277 (1537 views)
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Re: [Amazon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I read about this in Blue sky mag..

Seems Tk is going from upstanding skydiver respected to Crook,, in many peoples eyes..

He is a member here, be nice to hear from him!


jsreznor  (C 38889)

Dec 20, 2010, 10:59 AM
Post #81 of 277 (1528 views)
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Re: [Amazon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Instead I see a hell of a lot of stupid childish vindictive crap coming from a certain group of people.

Sweet hypocrisy! This thread is titled about Deland, but easily turned into an "I hate Billy Richards" rant. In case you missed it, that's where this thread went childish and vindictive.

Now TK was the one who started talking about things happening at his own DZ, which again brings up criticism of how things are run over there.

But it's cool. Blame it on the Ranch people, all four of us who post on dz.com.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 20, 2010, 11:19 AM
Post #82 of 277 (1513 views)
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Re: [jsreznor] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I was the one to bring Z-hills into the thread.
It was and is a fair comparison of what is happening in Deland.
It appears to me that Mr. Richards throws money at you when he's pissed at you.
Given the treatment of TK by the shareholders in the company (including Mr. Richards until he was fired), I'd say they're very happy with his management.Tongue


Ron

Dec 20, 2010, 12:49 PM
Post #83 of 277 (1471 views)
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Re: [gofastgirl] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!!

Hard to follow your post... Are you trying to say "truth"????

Quote:
Some just don't care about the truth

You mean things like how Billy thought he had the ability to dictate policy and hold the planes over the DZ's head?

And how without a contract he thinks he should still get his way?

Blame Billy for not having a contract. Blame Billy for getting pissed and trying to create problems... both in Zhills and in DeLand.

Blame TK for flying a plane without the correct license.

Why is it none of the legal issues seem to be falling in Billy's favor? The most logical answer is his position is not as strong as he thinks.






captain1976  (D 7183)

Dec 20, 2010, 5:02 PM
Post #86 of 277 (1354 views)
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Re: [gofastgirl] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!! You are accuse the wrong person because the FAA found out YOU WAS FLIYNG ILLEGALLY, without commercial licences and your medical was due since a long time ago. You think you are a good manenger but you are never do your job when one of your employe rob more than 100 000$. Who paid for that trial? The 3 owners of the compagny (yes that include Billy Richard) and your not one of them!!! At that moment the only person who make money on the worst friendly drop zone it's you. I hope you will be kick out sone and that drop zone will be what it be FRIENDLY without TROUBLE MACKER AS YOU!!!

TK Carries a Commercial Multi Certificate. In most Countries that license covers single-engine commercial operation as well.

In the US they make it an additional requirement.

Remember, we are dealaing with the US Government here. More rating requirements require more examiners (Civil Servants).

It is and never was a safety issue!






danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 20, 2010, 9:21 PM
Post #89 of 277 (1255 views)
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Re: [Amazon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I find it really interesting that so many of the old guard are so keen to shoot Billy down for not having contracts and what not but are some of the first to complain so bitterly about skydiving turning into an industry and the loss of the old ways. Billy was running this the old way, that's how he is.

Billy is a part owner of the DZ, he can't be "fired" as someone put it earlier. Free Fall Express is the company that was providing aircraft and staff to Skydive City, TK let them go over a pricing dispute. Billy owns a large stake in Skydive City and is allegedly not consulted and is not receiving the cash from the business that he's due.

For the record, all the details I've posted here about what's going on come from the media and this site, like any of you (except TK of course). This is a business dispute that has two sides and two strong willed people on either side. Painting one person as purely wrong is just myopic.

It's very easy for everyone here to paint Billy as purely the villain and TK as the victim because TK posts here, he's one of "us" and Billy doesn't have a great reputation amongst some people. Any adult reading this forum should know that life isn't that simple.

You might wonder why Ranch Hands are defending Billy. Maybe you guys don't really care. It's nice to have a bad guy isn't it...


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 20, 2010, 9:25 PM
Post #90 of 277 (1250 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never heard he wasn't getting his cut of the business.
I seriously doubt that considering he has lost all legal efforts to date.
Where did you get that from?


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 20, 2010, 9:28 PM
Post #91 of 277 (1251 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

The article I posted a few pages back.

I guess my posts are generally so lame that people are blocking them out... Pirate


Amazon  (D License)

Dec 20, 2010, 9:45 PM
Post #92 of 277 (1246 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

So basically when your buddy gets a burr in his knickers because another DZ in Florida provides airplanes to Z Hiils .. his first thought is to shit on them too and try to open another DZ operation on the airport they use ... nope.. no vindictiveness there at all.CrazyCrazyCrazy


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 20, 2010, 9:49 PM
Post #93 of 277 (1242 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Nah - I just missed it in the article. Wink

But, again, I seriously doubt that part of the story.
Otherwise he would most assuredly won a partial injunction until those monies were paid. Ya think?
Tongue

I LOVE the reporter's name!!!
LaughLaughLaugh


kuai43  (C License)

Dec 21, 2010, 1:51 AM
Post #94 of 277 (1217 views)
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Re: [skyrider] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!! You are accuse the wrong person because the FAA found out YOU WAS FLIYNG ILLEGALLY, without commercial licences and your medical was due since a long time ago. You think you are a good manenger but you are never do your job when one of your employe rob more than 100 000$. Who paid for that trial? The 3 owners of the compagny (yes that include Billy Richard) and your not one of them!!! At that moment the only person who make money on the worst friendly drop zone it's you. I hope you will be kick out sone and that drop zone will be what it be FRIENDLY without TROUBLE MACKER AS YOU!!!

So...You just joined us to make that one post...Now if we only knew who it is aimed at...it might make sense!Unsure

It helps if it's read with a Jamaican accent. Wink


skyrider  (D 14710)

Dec 21, 2010, 5:32 AM
Post #95 of 277 (1172 views)
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Re: [kuai43] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point Mawn!


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Dec 21, 2010, 6:37 AM
Post #96 of 277 (1152 views)
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Re: [captain1976] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is and never was a safety issue!

I can't completely agree with that statement. Not complying with FAA regulations (even the bullshit ones) shows a lack of knowledge or professionalism. If you don't have the ticket for that plane - don't fly it. (Especially for hire).

For the non-pilots out there, it is similiar to driving with an expired license. It is an indication that the driver isn't aware of the basic regulations or chooses to disregard them. Would you call that driver a 'safe driver'? I would not, especially if I were paying that driver to drive me. What other basic regulations is he unaware of or disregarding?


Ron

Dec 21, 2010, 9:20 AM
Post #97 of 277 (1083 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I find it really interesting that so many of the old guard are so keen to shoot Billy down for not having contracts

No one is shooting him down for not having a contract. We are saying that without a contract he cannot force an issue that he only *thinks* exists.

Quote:
Billy is a part owner of the DZ, he can't be "fired" as someone put it earlier. Free Fall Express is the company that was providing aircraft and staff to Skydive City, TK let them go over a pricing dispute.

Fine, TK fired Freefall Express. Billy still *thinks* that he (as owner of Freefall Express) has a right to be the sole provider of aircraft for SDC.... Even though there is no contract that states that. The legal proceedings have proven that to be false.

Quote:
Billy owns a large stake in Skydive City and is allegedly not consulted and is not receiving the cash from the business that he's due.

Facts to back that claim up? The judges seem to disagree. He may be missing the income from the FFE part, but TK and the other owners have the right to find a better deal to do what is best for the DZ.

Quote:
This is a business dispute that has two sides and two strong willed people on either side. Painting one person as purely wrong is just myopic.

Did Billy try to start a DZ on Zhills as revenge? Did he then try to start a DZ in DeLand as revenge? Did he bring a lawsuit against TK's aircraft business?

Quote:
Billy doesn't have a great reputation amongst some people

You ever wonder why that is? It is actions like these.

Quote:
You might wonder why Ranch Hands are defending Billy

Because they like him since he treats them well. Not a hard concept t grasp. Ever wonder why the Zhills folks are defending TK? Same reasons.

Now... As a former Zhills person I can easily state that Billy made it quite clear that Zhills was not his priority. I can remember at least TWICE where I saw the Otter fly off on a weekend to fly somewhere and leaving Zhills with NO aircraft whatsoever.

Here are the FACTS:

* Billy thought he had an exclusive agreement with SDC for FFE to be the sole aircraft provider.

* This "Agreement" was not in writing.

* On several occasions FFE left Zhills with ZERO aircraft.

* FFE tried to renegotiate the "contract" and SDC decided to go with another vendor.

So:
1. There is no contract

2. FFE leaving Zhills without aircraft on more than one occasion would have put them in violation of an exclusive use contract.

3. Renegotiating the 'contract' would have invalidated the original 'contract'.

I personally like Billy.... but I made it a point to NEVER enter into business with him.

TK and I argue all day long on just about every issue.... Don't believe me? Ask him.


Ron

Dec 21, 2010, 9:26 AM
Post #98 of 277 (1077 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
For the non-pilots out there, it is similiar to driving with an expired license.

Not really.... It is more like the guy qualified to drive the 18 wheeler hopping into a car and taking a package out for delivery.

The DOT considers a guy qualified to drive an 18 wheeler (Class A) to be qualified to drive a van (Class C).

The FAA does not consider a guy qualified to fly a 747 full of pax as qualified to fly a Piper Cub for hire.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Dec 21, 2010, 10:25 AM
Post #99 of 277 (1056 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The FAA does not consider a guy qualified to fly a 747 full of pax as qualified to fly a Piper Cub for hire.

You are exactly correct and proving my point. You may not agree with the regulation, but you damn well better follow it . You can't pick and choose which regulations you like and want to follow. That (at least in my book) makes you an unsafe pilot.


Ron

Dec 21, 2010, 10:44 AM
Post #100 of 277 (1043 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You are exactly correct and proving my point.

Not really, you said it was "it is similiar to driving with an expired license."

It actually is not similar.

You are correct that it shows ignorance of the regulation, but again people know you are not supposed to drive on an expired license. So it is not similar there either.

In any case, TK admitted the mistake and was reprimanded by the FAA. It was dumb, but not "unsafe" unless you are trying to claim that a guy qualified to fly a twin is somehow not safe flying a single.

And I will not defend him not following the FAR's.... I just pointed out your analogy was wrong on many levels.

Quote:
You may not agree with the regulation, but you damn well better follow it . You can't pick and choose which regulations you like and want to follow. That (at least in my book) makes you an unsafe pilot.

I hope you disclosed during your medical to the FAA that you have used drugs in the past.

http://www.dropzone.com/...ost=3992966;#3992966

Quote:
I no longer smoke the silly stuff but I probably would if I wouldnt get fired for it.

+1

and I guess your following the FAR's does not count when no one see's it:

http://www.dropzone.com/...ost=3640867;#3640867

Quote:
I agree - go with Don't ask Don't Tell. If you are really interested in the vagaries of what constitutes an aircraft incident Google the FAA Order 8020.11B


(This post was edited by Ron on Dec 21, 2010, 10:55 AM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 21, 2010, 11:30 AM
Post #101 of 277 (2219 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Point, set, match to Mr. Ron. Wink

Sparky


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Dec 21, 2010, 11:40 AM
Post #102 of 277 (2212 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

A few points:

1.people know you are not supposed to drive on an expired license. So it is not similar there either.

Pilots know they aren't supposed to fly a plane unless they are fully qualified to do so. It is exactly the same.

2.I no longer smoke the silly stuff but I probably would if I wouldnt get fired for it.

Nothing in that statement indicates I ever used illegal drugs. I do not admit to having smoked illegal drugs. (especially not on a public forum)


3.I agree - go with Don't ask Don't Tell.

I was advising not going to the authorities and asking if what happened qualified as an incident. In my mind it wasn't, so I suggested not bringing it up. I also provided a reference to what the FAA definition of an 'incident' is in case the original poster thought differently. I was not advocating lying by omission.

I never claimed to be a safe pilot (or skydiver). I personally don't think there is such a thing. We all take calculated risks which are often less safe. IMHO any skydiver who uses less than a NAV 280 and performs any turns below 300 feet isn't safe. Your opinion may vary.

I was disagreeing with someone who thought actions I considered unsafe were safe. Not following the regulations is one measure of not being safe.


Ron

Dec 21, 2010, 12:13 PM
Post #103 of 277 (2191 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Pilots know they aren't supposed to fly a plane unless they are fully qualified to do so. It is exactly the same.

Ah, except that many (incorrectly) think a higher rating qualifies you for a lower rating when it comes to the FAA. And in many Countries it is true. Nowhere is driving on an expired license OK. It is clearly not the same.

Quote:
Nothing in that statement indicates I ever used illegal drugs. I do not admit to having smoked illegal drugs. (especially not on a public forum)

Really?!?!?!?!?
Quote:
I no longer smoke the silly stuff but I probably would if I wouldnt get fired for it.

"No longer" means you did at one time.

Quote:
I was not advocating lying by omission


Quote:
go with Don't ask Don't Tell, I was advising not going to the authorities
You are telling him to not find out, and not to mention it. That is exactly 'advocating lying by omission'.

Quote:
I was disagreeing with someone who thought actions I considered unsafe were safe.

OK, all I did was disagree with your analogy.

Quote:
I never claimed to be a safe pilot (or skydiver). I personally don't think there is such a thing. We all take calculated risks which are often less safe. IMHO any skydiver who uses less than a NAV 280 and performs any turns below 300 feet isn't safe. Your opinion may vary.

You seem more than willing to pass judgment here.

Give an example of how a properly rated twin commercial pilot is unsafe flying a single engine airplane that he is current on?


(This post was edited by Ron on Dec 21, 2010, 12:32 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 21, 2010, 1:48 PM
Post #104 of 277 (2145 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

>For the non-pilots out there, it is similiar to driving with an expired license.

Well, it's more like a professional race car driver with a regular driver's license driving a three wheeler - then realizing you need a separate license for that.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 21, 2010, 1:53 PM
Post #105 of 277 (2139 views)
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Re: [Everyone] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

You're all under arrest for Torturing Analogies.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Dec 21, 2010, 1:54 PM
Post #106 of 277 (2150 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

1. I no longer smoke the silly stuff - it is your interpretation 'silly stuff' is marijuana or some other illegal drug. Again, I do not admit to ever consuming any illegal drug.

2. You are telling him to not find out, and not to mention it. That is exactly 'advocating lying by omission'. Wrong. 'lying by omission' is knowingly withholding information you believe to be true. If you do not know it to be true, you are not omitting.

3.Give an example of how a properly rated twin commercial pilot is unsafe flying a single engine airplane that he is current on? Don't ask me to justify a bullshit FAA regulation. It exists. Call someone at the FAA. I am not going to defend it. I will defend the statement that all FAA regulations should be followed, not just the non-bullshit ones.

4. This isn't fun anymore. I give up - you win, I quit. FAA regulations and maintenance schedules are just recommendations and we should only choose to follow the ones we like. I smoke heroin laced pot on a daily basis and I recommend that all pilots lie to the FAA as often as they can. Does that about cover it? Unsure


Scrumpot  (D License)

Dec 21, 2010, 2:18 PM
Post #107 of 277 (2119 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. I no longer smoke the silly stuff...

And what was the very title itself, to the thread/poll, in which this quote was extracted, and to which - directly, you were replying?

Hmmmm...


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 21, 2010, 4:35 PM
Post #108 of 277 (2051 views)
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Re: [gofastgirl] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Anonymous rants never get respect. More often they get ridicule...Expect it.

I'm guessing you're not from the U.S.?


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Dec 22, 2010, 12:07 PM
Post #109 of 277 (1916 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

First I am a Ranch hand and love it. No place like it.
I have been reading this thread for weeks and think most of it is just retarded. My policy is believe little of what you hear. Most people don't know what they are talking about.

With that said, I'm sure both TK and Billy have their faults and who I'm I to judge either of them. I take the stance that the courts should work this out. Name calling on here is just childish. Just remember what both parties are saying are for their best interest. So I would be careful what you believe.

I have nothing to gain from posting here or from this situation. I just hope people move past this so we can get back in the air where we should be Wink

Shawanga!


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Dec 22, 2010, 12:11 PM)


MadOtter  (B License)

Dec 22, 2010, 4:12 PM
Post #110 of 277 (1849 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I too am a Ranch hand and while I am more than happy jumping other places as well, the Ranch will always be home.

That being said, I was unaware of any of this until recently. And when I was told that z-hills was an unfriendly place for we proud Ranch folk, the first thing out of my mouth was, 'What the hell does this have to do with any of us?'.

Personally, I find the fact that so many 'uninvolved' skydivers are taking aggressive sides here completely contrary to what I've always thought this sport to be about. It is a virtual certainty that within any group of skydivers, each will have very different opinions on any given subject (some actually have two or more themselves to entertain the multiple personalities bouncing around in their heads). But at the end of the day, acceptance is given. Regardless if they continue to disagree for the next several decades.

As far as I'm concerned, all parties involved should shut their mouths and handle this amongst themselves. I for one won't waste my time on this thread again.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 22, 2010, 5:21 PM
Post #111 of 277 (1810 views)
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Re: [MadOtter] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...when I was told that z-hills was an unfriendly place for we proud Ranch folk, the first thing out of my mouth was, 'What the hell does this have to do with any of us?'.

Bingo.
It's sad to see jumpers create an "US vs Them" over this.
In spite of a couple of indications otherwise, I find it hard to believe, and I certainly hope I am right, that jumpers from either DZ would snub visitors from the other.

This is a political problem, not a safety issue.

The Ranch is almost like our sister DZ and my original home DZ was Z-hills. I feel for you both.




davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 22, 2010, 5:27 PM
Post #113 of 277 (1802 views)
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Re: [MadOtter] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, all parties involved should shut their mouths and handle this amongst themselves. I for one won't waste my time on this thread again

See post 54, there's an 'official' opinion from a BSR (Blue Sky Ranch, I'm guessing) newsletter outlining their view of the situation. If they didn't want it to be made public, putting it in writing and distributing it through a newsletter is probably not the best idea. Seeing as they did just that, it should be no surprise that other, sometimes contrary, opinions will also surface.

Quote:
I was told that z-hills was an unfriendly place for we proud Ranch folk, the first thing out of my mouth was, 'What the hell does this have to do with any of us?'.

I would like to know the source of that information. I find it hard to believe that a jumper would be turned away, or even treated with anything but respect, at Z-Hills simply because they jump at the Ranch. If the jumper is in good standing with the USPA, and are for the sole purpose of skydiving and having fun, I'l willing to bet that they will sell you tickets, and treat you like everyone else.


pms07  (D 7571)

Dec 22, 2010, 7:15 PM
Post #114 of 277 (1758 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Quote:
I was told that z-hills was an unfriendly place for we proud Ranch folk, the first thing out of my mouth was, 'What the hell does this have to do with any of us?'.

I would like to know the source of that information. I find it hard to believe that a jumper would be turned away, or even treated with anything but respect, at Z-Hills simply because they jump at the Ranch. If the jumper is in good standing with the USPA, and are for the sole purpose of skydiving and having fun, I'l willing to bet that they will sell you tickets, and treat you like everyone else.

I would like to know as well. I also think it's unlikely that Ranch folks would have any issues at Z-Hills, assuming they just show up, buy tickets, skydive and have a good time. Hell, it's unlikely they would even be recognized as from the Ranch unless it's Billy R or one of several other "high profile" ranch hands. I've jumped at the Hills many times over the years (including being there the week the FFE Otters disappeared...) and I don't remember anyone ever asking where my home DZ is or caring...


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 22, 2010, 9:02 PM
Post #115 of 277 (1719 views)
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Re: [pms07] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we all know that nothing of substance is going to be reveled here regarding this matter. Rather than people throwing rocking all around and getting their feathers all ruffled this would be a good time for the moderators to lock this one down. Unsure

Sparky


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 22, 2010, 9:12 PM
Post #116 of 277 (1715 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

No way, we're getting to the good part where we're all fun loving skyjumpers who won't let bad business relations ruin the sport.

I fully agree that jumpers from any dropzone are (as they should be) welcome at any dropzone they visit. Barring any previous incidents they may have had that would cause them to be unwelcome of course.
TongueTongue


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 22, 2010, 10:37 PM
Post #117 of 277 (1695 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Barring any previous incidents they may have had that would cause them to be unwelcome of course.


The younger crowd who look at us old fart and conservative and non fun loving would be surprised at how may have ďprevious incidentsĒ in our past. Wink

Sparky


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 23, 2010, 4:19 AM
Post #118 of 277 (1661 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone at the Ranch is welcome to come to Z-Hills any time. Come, buy jump tickets, get on loads, jump, have fun, drink beer, relax, repeat.

As always.


Icon134  (D 29820)

Dec 23, 2010, 6:20 AM
Post #119 of 277 (1613 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy put it well... I remember when I first started exploring other dropzones after starting my skydiving life at an Atlanta dz that wasn't well like in the ATL area...

but no one (Andy included) derided me for it... they just invited me to jump and have fun... I miss the ATL crowd...


skyrider  (D 14710)

Dec 23, 2010, 6:54 AM
Post #120 of 277 (1595 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No way, we're getting to the good part where we're all fun loving skyjumpers who won't let bad business relations ruin the sport.

I fully agree that jumpers from any dropzone are (as they should be) welcome at any dropzone they visit. Barring any previous incidents they may have had that would cause them to be unwelcome of course.
TongueTongue

Oy Vey...When I first started, I had "issues" with Don Muma...(owned the Otay DZ) "personal issues...not safety related at all, well that fucker contacted all the DZ's in the Dago area, and had me grounded...I had been jumping at Perris for 3 weeks before they caught wind of it.."Instantly grounded" (stopped from boarding a plane)...If it hadn't been for Jim Wallace steppng up, and telling the DZO it was bullshit, I'd probably stopped skydiving for good , due to that embarrassment....

Personal shit has no business , in the "Business" of skydivng!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 23, 2010, 8:03 AM
Post #121 of 277 (1574 views)
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Re: [skyrider] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personal shit has no business , in the "Business" of skydivng!

Well, yes and no.
Normiss mentioned,

Quote:
Barring any previous incidents they may have had that would cause them to be unwelcome of course.
TongueTongue

I hope you don't mean, "I can screw up however I want to at one DZ and expect to welcomed with a clean slate at the next."


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 23, 2010, 8:10 AM
Post #122 of 277 (1564 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm reminded of a stabbing at a Florida DZ when someone stood up to protect a woman.

Why wouldn't you welcome a knife wielding skydiver at your DZ???

Tongue

A thief? A disease spreading morally lacking jumper??? A seriously unsafe resulting in someone else's injury or death skydiver?
Tongue


Airgump  (D 29909)

Dec 23, 2010, 11:27 AM
Post #123 of 277 (1502 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

i still get email updates from the ranch, haven't been there in awhile, and am sad all this has come about (see attached .pdf).

went down to the Keys Boogie this year and ended up spending more time out at Z-hills than I did at the Keys.

can't wait to get back there and hang out with dem dere City Folks. miss you guys!


(This post was edited by Airgump on Dec 23, 2010, 12:23 PM)
Attachments: Billy.B.Bad.pdf (178 KB)


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 23, 2010, 11:33 AM
Post #124 of 277 (1495 views)
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Re: [Airgump] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for sharing "the truth" - or at least their perspective of it.

I say again, if those details were even minutely accurate, the outcome of the legal proceedings would surely have been much different.
There HAS to be a reason Skydive City has won REPEATEDLY and EVERY court hearing.


Rick  (D 28557)

Dec 23, 2010, 11:44 AM
Post #125 of 277 (1479 views)
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Re: [Airgump] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i still get email updates from the ranch, haven't been there in awhile, and am sad all this has come about (see attached .pdf).

went down to the Keys Boogie this year and ended up spending more time out at Z-hills than I did at the Keys.

can't wait to get back there and hang out with dem dere City Folks. miss you guys!


Just don't wait so long between visits this timeTongue
We're always glad to see you Gump


Ron

Dec 23, 2010, 12:38 PM
Post #126 of 277 (2045 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm reminded of a stabbing at a Florida DZ when someone stood up to protect a woman.

Yeah, but the stabee was Randy..... So it was hard to pick a side on that one...... Tongue

Kidding, Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day


Airgump  (D 29909)

Dec 23, 2010, 12:57 PM
Post #127 of 277 (2039 views)
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Re: [Rick] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

RICK! going to try to get back down that way first week or so in Feb. will holler as that magical time approaches.

waiting on new gear from Bonehead that should be done by the end of Jan, and had to send the brand new RW suit Tony made me back to get the booties enlarged to fit my huge freaking feets.

got 27 inches of snow up here since i saw you last. this is one time i wish they'd lay me off


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 23, 2010, 1:25 PM
Post #128 of 277 (2023 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

We need to go back to calling him "Stabby".
TongueLaugh


happythoughts  (D License)

Dec 23, 2010, 1:56 PM
Post #129 of 277 (2004 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We need to go back to calling him "Stabby".
TongueLaugh

I told K, "The party was going well right up until the stabbing."
(Among my social skills, Consolation isn't a strength for me) Wink


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 26, 2010, 7:28 AM
Post #130 of 277 (1854 views)
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Re: [mirage62] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can name 10 other places that would provide a better chance at a return.

Please do.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 26, 2010, 7:55 AM
Post #131 of 277 (1846 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no inside knowledge of this situation, but I have worked with Billy and have some opinions of my own.

I rented turbine aircraft from Billy when I operated a DZ. In my experience, Billy was a gruff sort of guy who didn't waste a lot of words and had no desire to candy-coat anything.

Billy was also a man of his word with whom I conducted business on a handshake. He never failed to have the aircraft I needed, even if he had to shuffle birds around to keep me in a plane while taking one out of service. He worked with me on per-seat pricing and never complained when iffy clouds made for a weekend full of second, third, and even fourth passes.

His planes were in great condition and maintained better than most. When there was a problem, Billy made sure it got fixed in short order regardless of what it cost.

I'm not trying to piss on the anti-Billy parade. I just wanted to pass along my thoughts too.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 26, 2010, 8:06 AM
Post #132 of 277 (1838 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm reminded of a stabbing at a Florida DZ when someone stood up to protect a woman.

Why wouldn't you welcome a knife wielding skydiver at your DZ???

Tongue

A thief? A disease spreading morally lacking jumper??? A seriously unsafe resulting in someone else's injury or death skydiver?
Tongue


I said: "I hope you don't mean, I can screw up however I want to at one DZ and expect to welcomed with a clean slate at the next."

Just for clarification...
Your post (#122) doesn't read like you understand that I'm agreeing with you.


Oh wait...sarcasm, right?
LaughLaugh
<headslap, no stab, please>


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 26, 2010, 8:13 AM
Post #133 of 277 (1828 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day

I just wish he had done it a different way that had not resulted in a stabbing.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 26, 2010, 11:46 AM
Post #134 of 277 (1777 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Words resulted in the stabbing reaction, nothing more.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 26, 2010, 7:41 PM
Post #135 of 277 (1703 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day

I just wish he had done it a different way that had not resulted in a stabbing.


So you are blaming the guy for getting stabbed?


skyrider  (D 14710)

Dec 26, 2010, 7:55 PM
Post #136 of 277 (1696 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day

I just wish he had done it a different way that had not resulted in a stabbing.


So you are blaming the guy for getting stabbed?

I've stabbed/cut a few people in my life, and Yes, they all caused it!


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 28, 2010, 4:28 PM
Post #137 of 277 (1553 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www2.tbo.com/...city-des/news-pasco/

Based on that article and TK saying that the price hike would put them down $160k/year, you could come to the conclusion that slots would cost ~$2.30 more. That's not counting tandems or AFF obviously. Z-hills charge $24.50 per jump ticket and you can get discounts if you buy them in bulk.

Just wanted to get that out there because I was curious.

As for the "Ranch people aren't welcome at z-hills" anymore, I agree that these issues have nothing to do with the average skydiver. I also agree that people at either DZ will come to some conclusion about this situation. Has it affected the number of people visiting zhills this year? Yes, it has. This situation didn't affect me in any way because I'm not doing a skydiving trip this year. Frown

I would also like to point out that even the Blue Sky Ranch email said Free Fall Express -v- Skydive City, not Blue Sky Ranch so there's a distinction there.

As for "facts to back that up", as I said earlier, I'm basing my comments on information that's in the media, i.e. what's publicly available. Can we trust the media? Probably not but you can probably trust them a little more than hearing from one of the involved parties and we've only heard from one of them. Point is, the truth is normally somewhere in the middle.

In reply to:
No one is shooting him down for not having a contract. We are saying that without a contract he cannot force an issue that he only *thinks* exists.
Agreed but when you have TK on this board admitting that there were verbal contracts and nothing written down, verbal contracts that go back years apparently then I find myself wondering.

As for Deland, I wouldn't have done that based on what I know about the situation.

I would like to jump at the Farm though. Cool

Anyway, I've been staying away from this thread because almost everything I have to say is off topic (it's about DeLand after all) so apologies for that.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Dec 28, 2010, 4:30 PM)


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Dec 28, 2010, 5:22 PM
Post #138 of 277 (1521 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

 
"We have met the enemy and he is us"
Pogo 1970


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 28, 2010, 6:53 PM
Post #139 of 277 (1488 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

"Has it affected the number of people visiting zhills this year? Yes, it has. "

How do you know this?Crazy


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Dec 28, 2010, 9:06 PM
Post #140 of 277 (1455 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi daniel,

Quote:
Agreed but when you have TK on this board admitting that there were verbal contracts and nothing written down, verbal contracts that go back years apparently then I find myself wondering.

I worked in Contract Management for 30 yrs. Verbal contracts can be binding ( in fact, they are binding ) but the problem is just what was said. Therein lies the problem. Most verbal contracts simply do not have sufficient details to make them enforceable unless it is something simple like "I'll give you $30 for that canopy" & 'OK, I'll take it.'

And then there is the age old problem of did one party actually say exactly what the other party says they said.

And I do know that a verbal contract can be binding per the Uniform Commercial Code ( UCC ).

Just for example let us say that FFE agreed to provide aircraft on the weekends for 14 months at some price. And the other party agreed. When ( and I do not know ) FFE did not provide aircraft on any given weekend during that period ( short of a Force Majeure ) then FFE was in breach and the contract was void. A Force Majeure does not have to be actually included but is usually implied. A Force Majeure is usually defined similar to an Act of God, i.e., something that neither party could do anything about nor act around.

Just my thoughts . . . They are worth just about what you paid for them.

NOTE) I do not consider myself an expert on contracts and I do not know anything about the details of any actual contract between these two parties.

JerryBaumchen


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 28, 2010, 9:16 PM
Post #141 of 277 (1456 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Just for example let us say that FFE agreed to provide aircraft on the weekends for 14 months at some price. And the other party agreed. When ( and I do not know ) FFE did not provide aircraft on any given weekend during that period ( short of a Force Majeure ) then FFE was in breach and the contract was void

Add to that, if FFE was willing to supply the aircraft, but not at the agreed price, that would also void the contract.

That appears to be what happened here. A verbal contract was in place, but FEE nullified it when they presented a new contract with a higher cost. Z-hills declined the new contract.

It's a risk you take when you try to renegotiate any contract. Don't ask a question unless you are equally preparred to hear both 'yes' and 'no' as an answer.


Ron

Dec 28, 2010, 9:57 PM
Post #142 of 277 (1450 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would also like to point out that even the Blue Sky Ranch email said Free Fall Express -v- Skydive City, not Blue Sky Ranch so there's a distinction there.

The distinction is lost when you look at the fact that the information was in BSR official announcement making claims like, " TK Hayes has lost the plot", "Zhills has been putting jumpers in imminent danger", and then mentioning that the Ranch Hands will not be going to Zhills "for loyalty reasons".

You really trying to claim that it was "only FFE"????

Quote:
Probably not but you can probably trust them a little more than hearing from one of the involved parties and we've only heard from one of them.

Actually... I have heard from several of them. I was at Zhills last weekend. Only TK has posted, but there are lots of individuals that are involved both working at Zhills and for the City.

Quote:
Agreed but when you have TK on this board admitting that there were verbal contracts and nothing written down, verbal contracts that go back years apparently then I find myself wondering.

And as stated, verbal contracts that one side admits they were trying to change.

Ever notice that the legal issues brought up by Billy have not been over his "exclusive" rights? They have been over the fuel farm, the hanger, and TK's flying the Cessna being 'dangerous'.

The fact is that TK has stated that any Ranch Hand that wants to show up at Zhills is welcome but Billy is trying to get people to avoid Zhills.


freefalle  (D 27777)

Dec 28, 2010, 10:55 PM
Post #143 of 277 (1440 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

so does anyone even know if this business is going to open? Just wondering


GoHuskers  (C 41540)

Dec 28, 2010, 11:16 PM
Post #144 of 277 (1433 views)
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Re: [Hvance] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no strong opinions here, but I would like to point out that when standard practices of American banking become the litmus test of business ethics, something has gone awry... Wink
Como se dice ZING


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 28, 2010, 11:17 PM
Post #145 of 277 (1433 views)
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Re: [freefalle] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so does anyone even know if this business is going to open? Just wondering

What Business? ShockedCrazy

Sparky


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 29, 2010, 7:09 AM
Post #146 of 277 (1388 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Facebook thread that I've seen on a planned trip. For the record, I had no involvement and made no comment.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 29, 2010, 7:14 AM
Post #147 of 277 (1384 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting points. I can certainly see that (and have a very simple understanding of) verbal contracts can be difficult to enforce. How is the legal situation affected by the continuation of transactions showing an agreement on price and services? To put it another way: If FFE and SC had agreed verbally to aircraft supply at a certain rate, FFE had failed to supply planes on one (or more occasions as suggested by someone) then the agreed agreement resumed following this breach, what are the legal implications?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 7:25 AM
Post #148 of 277 (1374 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Trust me, nobody wants to read a lengthy post that looks like a law school exam answer. All involved have lawyers. Let the lawyers bash it out.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 29, 2010, 7:38 AM
Post #149 of 277 (1365 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what I was saying about it having very little to do with the average jumper. All of my friends pretty much had the same reaction: "Doesn't have anything to do with me". My comment about this situation affecting the number of people making trips to Zhills was actually regarding a different group of people who apparently were affected by the situation, either via this email suggestion or other factors. As I said, people will make their own minds up as to whether they feel that behavior on either side would lead them to make different plans for jumping.

Fair enough, I haven't heard directly from anyone from zhills other than TK via this thread, I have friends who are very close with people at zhills and ultimately this is not a good situation.

Yes, I have. As the the DZM, TK can decide to go with a different vendor, that's totally his call (unless the board is meant to be involved but I don't know if that's the case or not). I'm not surprised that the legal issues are around the fuel farm and hangar but if you review some of the articles that have been posted you'll see that the legal action around those items is due to the assertion that FFE paid for those facilities and had verbal contracts in place (allegedly) regarding those investments.

It's all well and good to say that verbal contracts don't mean a lot in a court of law unless they can be proved in a meaningful way. That's fine, but the fact that they were there (again, TK effectively said as much after Dave's synopsis) and apparently one party has decided to disregard the verbal contracts and use these facilities that were an investment by the other party without providing any remuneration seems to be the problem. Legal action, based on that premise, seems reasonable to me.

I think Chuck's experience with Billy is an interesting piece of information for everyone in this thread as well.

In reply to:
Trust me, nobody wants to read a lengthy post that looks like a law school exam answer. All involved have lawyers. Let the lawyers bash it out.
Fair enough.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Dec 29, 2010, 7:41 AM)


Ron

Dec 29, 2010, 10:00 AM
Post #150 of 277 (1311 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My comment about this situation affecting the number of people making trips to Zhills was actually regarding a different group of people who apparently were affected by the situation, either via this email suggestion or other factors.

And that's my point... Only one group is holding a grudge and trying to make life difficult for the other party.... and it is not TK or anyone at SDC.

Quote:
Yes, I have. As the the DZM, TK can decide to go with a different vendor, that's totally his call (unless the board is meant to be involved but I don't know if that's the case or not)

And the board decided to make this move. BR is only one member of the board. The vote didn't go the way he wanted.

Quote:
I'm not surprised that the legal issues are around the fuel farm and hangar but if you review some of the articles that have been posted you'll see that the legal action around those items is due to the assertion that FFE paid for those facilities and had verbal contracts in place (allegedly) regarding those investments.

You ignored the lawsuits brought against TK, his aircraft business, the pilots that are still flying here... Etc.

Plus you ignore the fact that the CITY has no 'contract' with BR, or FFE. The only contract that does exist is between SDC and the City.

Quote:
That's fine, but the fact that they were there (again, TK effectively said as much after Dave's synopsis) and apparently one party has decided to disregard the verbal contracts and use these facilities that were an investment by the other party without providing any remuneration seems to be the problem.

The facts are:

1. There was a verbal agreement between FFE and SDC. No one knows what the actual agreement was since it was not written down and was put into place 13+ years ago when there was a different manager.

2. FFE tried to renegotiate the contract (never mind that they had failed to comply on their end more than once). And SDC decided not to accept the new terms. FFE seems to think that only they are allowed to change the terms of the 'contract' and anything they want to do has to be accepted.

If FFE had not tried to change the contract to make more money.... Nothing would have happened.

No documentation of a contract pretty much means there is no contract since no one really knows what the terms were. Where there provisions for rate hikes??? No one knows. Heck, maybe TK should take the stance that the original contract was for SDC to pay 8 dollars a slot and sue to make FFE accept those terms????

Changing the terms of a contract invalidates a contract. And FFE tried to do this.

Non-compliance invalidates a contract.

So the exclusivity 'contract' is a non-starter, and the lawyers/rulings have said as much.

3. So then FFE/BR changed tactics and sued saying SDC was "unsafe" and the jumpers were in immediate danger unless FFE was allowed to fly again.

That died a quick death since SDC was able to prove the aircraft they hired are at least as well maintained as FFE AC.

FFE had a point about TK and the Cessna... But that has been resolved.

4. Billy has tried to open DZ's on airports that have DZ's. Speculation is that BR is doing this in an attempt to 'punish' those DZ's. Personally, I could have agreed with BR opening a ZHills DZ if he could prove he 'owned' the hanger. But in reality, the CITY owns the hanger and allows SDC to use it.

But still, if I had payed for a hanger, I'd want to be able to use it.

But the DeLand issue seems to be pure revenge based to me. And others seem to agree.

I have talked to TK, read his stuff, talked to people at the DZ, TALKED TO PEOPLE FROM THE CITY, and I can tell you that the general consensus from the City us the hanger and fuel farm issue is dead in the water.

There are plenty of airports in FL that would like a DZ... Hell, Start just opened one about an hour from Zhills.

Quote:
I think Chuck's experience with Billy is an interesting piece of information for everyone in this thread as well.

Of course.... But it is just one piece of info, just like TK's postings.

Why did BR try to sue Marco?

Why did BR tried to build a DZ in DeLand?

If you answer these questions, you might start to see a little more of the picture.

Right now BR looks like a supplier that tried to dictate terms to his customer. When he was told no, he started suing, when the lawsuits didn't work he started trying to compete against them..... In this case he is acting like WalMart.

Hey, I am ALL for a free market. I think the suing is bit dirty. I think trying to guilt your locals into blacklisting the place is a bit dirty.

I fail to see how anyone other than the principals really care.... If I were not bored I would not waste my time. Now this is boring me.... The facts are pretty well laid out.

Suffice to say... I am pretty sure I will never be welcomed at the Ranch. But, I can assure you that I will not hold the Ranch against anyone.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 29, 2010, 11:01 AM
Post #151 of 277 (1850 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day

I just wish he had done it a different way that had not resulted in a stabbing.


So you are blaming the guy for getting stabbed?

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
Nice try.
<shaking head>


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 29, 2010, 11:08 AM
Post #152 of 277 (1844 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Words resulted in the stabbing reaction, nothing more.

..and YOUR point is?

Different words may have resulted in a different reaction, eh?
Or do you believe that the reaction would have happened regardless of words expressed?

Nobody is pointing fingers at Randy saying he caused all the mess. You guys get all defensive and miss out on a lot.


Ron

Dec 29, 2010, 11:17 AM
Post #153 of 277 (1836 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Nobody is pointing fingers at Randy saying he caused all the mess.

Ah, come on... It *IS* Randy and haven't we ALL wanted to stab him at some point. Tongue


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 29, 2010, 12:25 PM
Post #154 of 277 (1821 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, it looks like we're just as stubborn as each other. Wink

Thanks for chatting in a civil tone. I'll note that neither of us has really talk to anyone "on the other side" so we're both kinda not getting the whole picture anyway.

I'll stop boring people know, there's talk of stabbing! Laugh


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 29, 2010, 1:10 PM
Post #155 of 277 (1801 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

There was that one time....
LaughLaughLaugh


tetra316  (D 26945)

Dec 29, 2010, 1:28 PM
Post #156 of 277 (1792 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I do know some events (ZTeam for one) that were supposed to be held at ZHills were moved elsewhere due to this conflict so yes it has affected the number of jumpers visiting.


jrsample  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 2:33 PM
Post #157 of 277 (1779 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

So you are blaming the guy for getting stabbed?
This belongs in another thread. Too far off topic and distracting from the meat of this one.

JR


jrsample  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 2:39 PM
Post #158 of 277 (1774 views)
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Re: [tetra316] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do know some events (ZTeam for one) that were supposed to be held at ZHills were moved elsewhere due to this conflict so yes it has affected the number of jumpers visiting.

It is/was my understanding that Guy had to "honor" a contract that he has with BR to use only FFE aircraft for his events. SDC was more than happy to host the event and told him so.

JR


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 29, 2010, 2:52 PM
Post #159 of 277 (1765 views)
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Re: [tetra316] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I think some have been offset by other attendees.

Guy Wright works for Billy, doesn't he?
TongueTongue


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 29, 2010, 3:36 PM
Post #160 of 277 (1756 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Blue Sky Ranch > BR

Guy is working at the Ranch AFAIK.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 29, 2010, 4:05 PM
Post #161 of 277 (1743 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

What I said.
Tongue


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 29, 2010, 4:05 PM
Post #162 of 277 (1741 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Words resulted in the stabbing reaction, nothing more.

..and YOUR point is?

Different words may have resulted in a different reaction, eh?
Or do you believe that the reaction would have happened regardless of words expressed?

Nobody is pointing fingers at Randy saying he caused all the mess. You guys get all defensive and miss out on a lot.

I'm not defensive at all. I was trying to figure out what your point was. I still don't know.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 29, 2010, 4:07 PM
Post #163 of 277 (1738 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Me either.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 4:28 PM
Post #164 of 277 (1726 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was trying to figure out what your point was.

Without a point, there could be no stabbing. Ponder that a while.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Dec 29, 2010, 5:48 PM
Post #165 of 277 (1708 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm guessing so but I don't know. Just that he was "bound" to use FFE aircraft regardless of where he jumped.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 30, 2010, 11:16 PM
Post #166 of 277 (1613 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As for the "Ranch people aren't welcome at z-hills" anymore, I agree ...

I already posted that Ranch skydivers are welcome at Z-Hills, no one has said otherwise

Quote:
Has it affected the number of people visiting zhills this year? Yes, it has.

No it has not - not sure where you get your info from, but we have done the same number of jumps, the same number of tandems, the same number of customers, etc as we have for pretty much the past 5 years.

Quote:
I would also like to point out that even the Blue Sky Ranch email said Free Fall Express -v- Skydive City, not Blue Sky Ranch so there's a distinction there.

Incorrect. Bill Richards is suing Skydive City, The Sunshine Factory, Joan Murphy, Susan Perkins, and me. Freefall Express has filed two lawsuits, one against Tadpole Aviation LLC and Marko Jaakkola. Freefall Express is NOT suing Skydive City that I am aware of, and believe me, I have been directly involved with all of this since day one.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Dec 31, 2010, 3:24 AM
Post #167 of 277 (1594 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Blue Sky Ranch > BR

Guy is working at the Ranch AFAIK.
Unless it is strictly behind the scenes completely, Guy is not working at the Ranch. He may or may not have any deal with Billy regarding a relationship somewhere else, but we at the Ranch don't deal with him at all. He used to be the manager but now he only occasionally does a cameo appearance. If that is different from plans for 2011 and beyond, I don't know. But as of now, Guy is not actually officially at the Ranch. To many of us he is an organizer who has been known to come to the Ranch, and many jumpers don't even know him at all.

Just clearing up some facts so the dirt tossing can continue in good faith. Carry on.


(This post was edited by kimemerson on Dec 31, 2010, 3:26 AM)


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 31, 2010, 4:35 AM
Post #168 of 277 (1581 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

And for what it's worth, I would rather not drag Guy into this either, he is not party to anything here. Guy may have relationships with Billy/Freefall/whatever - I hold no grudges against Guy Wright. He is also welcome at Z-Hills any time he wants to come.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 31, 2010, 5:07 AM
Post #169 of 277 (1570 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY, Normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not defensive at all. I was trying to figure out what your point was. I still don't know.

Are you guys purposely being obtuse?

- Different words/actions may have resulted in a different reaction, eh?

Not really difficult to understand. Even a caveman can do it.
Crazy

I have no idea why Mark brought this into the thread (see post 122) and I have no idea why asking for clarification on his post 166 set off your misunderstanding.
Geez.

Back to the original topic, please.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 31, 2010, 5:21 AM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 31, 2010, 5:25 AM
Post #170 of 277 (1552 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I still have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure the problem is on my end.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Dec 31, 2010, 5:57 AM
Post #171 of 277 (1541 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Me either.


yadda yadda yadda etc etc etc

what ever happened to "Shut Up AND Jump !!"...????ShockedLaughWink

Safe and Happy New Years... to EveryOne

regardless of "affiliation" "Non -affiliation" or ( in my case ) "neutrality"
TongueCoolWink


jmy


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 31, 2010, 7:40 AM
Post #172 of 277 (1503 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In response to your post, I gave an example.
Need more coffee Andy?
Cool


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 1, 2011, 7:00 PM
Post #173 of 277 (1377 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

You've taken every one of those quotes of mine out of context TK. It was all there in my post(s) I'm not going to re-hash it.

As for Guy, I've seem him around the DZ, didn't think much of it other than that he was around more. I don't think that has any bearing or relationship to what's going on here.

Just to clarify, I'm just a jumper at the Ranch, I have no relationship (beyond that) to any of the players here.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 1, 2011, 7:12 PM
Post #174 of 277 (1370 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I think a number of us have taken them out of context if that was not how you intended them to come across.
Because they did.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 1, 2011, 7:54 PM
Post #175 of 277 (1356 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

For clarity's sake then (normiss).

In reply to:
I already posted that Ranch skydivers are welcome at Z-Hills, no one has said otherwise
I was referencing the comment from the email and making the point that people will come to their own conclusions. To be more specific, to me and most of my friends, the email suggesting that we weren't welcome didn't have any affect and didn't make us think we weren't welcome.

In reply to:
No it has not - not sure where you get your info from, but we have done the same number of jumps, the same number of tandems, the same number of customers, etc as we have for pretty much the past 5 years.
Based on facebook traffic (that I also referred to) that I've seen, people *are* choosing not to go to Skydive City due to this drama. Your numbers may be the same TK but they may have been higher otherwise or the people choosing not to go are such a small number that it makes no difference.

In reply to:
Incorrect. Bill Richards is suing Skydive City, The Sunshine Factory, Joan Murphy, Susan Perkins, and me. Freefall Express has filed two lawsuits, one against Tadpole Aviation LLC and Marko Jaakkola. Freefall Express is NOT suing Skydive City that I am aware of, and believe me, I have been directly involved with all of this since day one.
The point of my comment was to say that this wasn't the Ranch -vs- Skydive City at all, TK, you've said the same thing in a different way.

I guess that I must have such poor writing skills that I have been misunderstood by more than one person throughout the length of this thread. The message is clear then.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 1, 2011, 8:12 PM
Post #176 of 277 (2287 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Basing an opinion on FB traffic can be very biased.VERY biased of me to make comments on Ranch traffic or business.

I have not seen ANY change in business at Skydive City, but I'm there regularly, talk to friends and staff that are there MUCH more so than almost any other DZ to comment on.

That was really my only misunderstanding of your post - that people were not going to Zhizzie when in fact they were, and are.

I wish nothing bad on either DZ. Z-hills is my home DZ and I've never been to The Ranch, I don't know nor have ever met BR that I know of.
I do spend most of my time at Zhizzie or Deland so I clearly have a personal interest in both. I have friends at both and also work part time at both DZ's.

I have based my opinions on the results of the legal proceedings.
Nothing more nor less. BR has won none so that tells me a lot.

We all need to jump more at any and every DZ we would care to.
Hopefully we will be met with professional, friendly, welcoming people wherever that might be.

Smile


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 1, 2011, 9:10 PM
Post #177 of 277 (2272 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
or the people choosing not to go are such a small number that it makes no difference.


Bingo, that is usually the case in situations like this. That is why I don't usually worry about telling someone who is being an ass to not come to my boogie. Most people have an over inflated view of their influence on other people.


jrsample  (D License)

Jan 2, 2011, 12:09 PM
Post #178 of 277 (2185 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I guess that I must have such poor writing skills that I have been misunderstood by more than one person throughout the length of this thread. The message is clear then.

Daniel, The thing that is clear is that none of us really know what has been going on to finally cause the dismissal of FFE as aircraft provider, why FFE is suing so many players, why FFE tried to stop the city from extending the lease for SDC, why FFE is trying to open two new DZs at Deland and Z-Hills.

What is clear though is that FFE's Ranch affiliation caused the Ranch to publish inflammatory remarks about the situation such as (loosely quoted) "Ranch jumpers won't be going to SDC for loyalty reasons". Is that an effort to get sympathy from the jumping public for their "cause"? It rather seems divisive and self serving to this jumper.

JR


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 2, 2011, 5:11 PM
Post #179 of 277 (2125 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I found it overly clear why FFE was 'dismissed'.
They pulled their aircraft out of Skydive City for other events leaving Skydive City without ANY lift capacity without any notice on multiple occasions AND raised their rates without any advance notice.
More than sufficient reason for dismissal to me.
Why are they suing everyone they can? Cause they're pissed about the first issue. Crazy


Krip  (Student)

Jan 3, 2011, 10:33 PM
Post #180 of 277 (1994 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I found it overly clear why FFE was 'dismissed'.
They pulled their aircraft out of Skydive City for other events leaving Skydive City without ANY lift capacity without any notice on multiple occasions AND raised their rates without any advance notice.
More than sufficient reason for dismissal to me.
Why are they suing everyone they can? Cause they're pissed about the first issue. Crazy

Hi Normiss

Some folks just can't let it go, even going to the extreme of hireing a lawyer at a hourly rate. Knowing that the peeps he's sueing will also have to waste their $$$$ on their own lawyers to defend themselves.Crazy

We watched a mcnasty at a DZ in Wa State devote 10+ yr's of his life trying to get even with the DZ. FAA on speed dial, videoing all T/O and landings, Putting the TV news in contact with a old man that had lost his son, Flying his own airplane over the DZ during jump run etc etc.

After the DZ incured significant $$$ legal bills they finally cut their losses & found another airport 60 miles away and built a bigger and better operation (IMO).

Mcnasty devoted 10+ yr's of his life 24/7 just to get evenCrazy Did he winUnimpressed He wasted 10 yr's for what? Win loseCrazy.

Reminds me of a nasty divorce with kids involved. The kids lose and one party will get their jollies getting even until the kids can move out on their own.


SRI85  (D License)

Jan 4, 2011, 6:36 AM
Post #181 of 277 (1937 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I found it overly clear why FFE was 'dismissed'.
They pulled their aircraft out of Skydive City for other events leaving Skydive City without ANY lift capacity without any notice on multiple occasions AND raised their rates without any advance notice.
More than sufficient reason for dismissal to me.
Why are they suing everyone they can? Cause they're pissed about the first issue. Crazy

i thought they were suing for the fuel farm and the hanger that they paid for to keep SDC in compliance .


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 4, 2011, 6:40 AM
Post #182 of 277 (1933 views)
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Re: [SRI85] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe they were.
But given that it is leased property, those belong to the city of Zephyrhills.
Can't sue for access to what you don't own.
A fuel farm and a hangar have nothing to do with "compliance" for that matter.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 4, 2011, 6:54 AM
Post #183 of 277 (1920 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But given that it is leased property, those belong to the city of Zephyrhills.
Can't sue for access to what you don't own

If they are indeed city property, then there would be no need for any court involvement. Before the city would allow the matter to go to court, they would smiply instruct the police (city employees) as to who is permitted on, and control of, the property, thus empowering the police to arrest anyone else for trespassing.

Just like when a private property owner calls the police to report trespassing, the property owner is the one who determines who is, or is not, tresspassing. In the case of city property, the city legal department would review the lease, and make that call.

Like I said earlier, if you hold a valid lease on a property, you don't need to sue anyone for tresspassing, you call the cops have them arrested on the spot.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 4, 2011, 7:06 AM
Post #184 of 277 (1912 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

City has nothing to say with the legal case being pursued. The city does not "allow" civil cases in any manner. That's a court matter. You can sue for anything you know.

The cops were called. Skydive City was kind enough to allow FFE access to remove their belongings. Much like a couple splitting up with common property. Take your shit and leave. Tongue


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Jan 4, 2011, 2:27 PM
Post #185 of 277 (1790 views)
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Re: [SRI85] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
i thought they were suing for the fuel farm and the hanger that they paid for to keep SDC in compliance .

In my earlier posts I clarified this

Freefall Express is NOT suing Skydive City or any of the partners, Bill Richards is.


freefalle  (D 27777)

Jan 5, 2011, 12:25 AM
Post #186 of 277 (1697 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

continues to get interesting.... this article ran in todays News Journal


DELAND -- The city will pay for mediation between Skydive DeLand and a second sky-diving company to work out an agreement that would ensure safety at the municipal airport.

City commissioners first learned about Joseph Richards' plans in October to open a competing sky-diving business at the airport where Skydive DeLand has operated solo for nearly 30 years. Subleasing the privately owned hangar from Daytona Airport Hangars requires the commission's approval because the property is owned by the city.

While the city can't legally deny multiple sky-diving businesses from operating at the federally funded airport, the sublease has been hovering in limbo since it was proposed because commissioners asked the two companies to work out their own coordinated procedures. Richards submitted a proposal, but the companies -- which have a strained relationship -- haven't yet worked out a plan with city staff.

Commissioners voted unanimously Monday night to have them attend a professionally mediated session or series, along with city staff and the hangar owner. The city will pay for the mediation, which also will include Commissioner Charles Paiva, a former pilot, who will provide input to represent the aviation community and commission.

"It's an interesting challenge," said Paiva, also a tandem sky-diving enthusiast, on Tuesday. "The new one would be at the beginning of one runway and Skydive DeLand would be at the end of the other runway. That's the stuff I'm trying to understand visually," and how they might work together with other aviators.

It is unknown how much the mediation will cost and will depend on whom the city chooses to work with, said City Manager Michael Pleus.

Officials hope an agreement can be worked out in time for a commission meeting Feb. 7.

The agreement is expected to address takeoff and landing operations, use of the traffic pattern, air communications, and communications and procedures when dropping jumpers. Other issues to be worked out include ground operations to pick up sky divers.

Hal Spence, an attorney representing Skydive DeLand, said the company wants to see the issues resolved and is "deeply concerned about the safety aspects as well."

"I think this would really be beneficial and we're ready to do that," he said about the mediation.

Richards, a partner in sky-diving company Blue Sky Entertainment, did not attend the meeting and could not be reached Tuesday.

But Gus Spreng, owner of Daytona Airport Hangars, said safety is a major concern and he expects that if a solution were reached in the next four weeks, he and Richards would "be fully compliant."

There are only two other airports with multiple sky-diving operations in the country and this is the first time city leaders have explored the idea of having two at the DeLand facility. As long as local procedures and flights are safe, the Federal Aviation Administration allows multiple sky-diving companies to fly out of the same airport, just as it does for various flight schools and airlines.

The FAA will be invited to the mediation dates, though city Public Services Director and Engineer Keith Riger said the agency is not as concerned about the protocol as much as it is about keeping the airport open for all users.

Commissioner Leigh Matusick said the procedures should be generally written to facilitate any number of sky-diving businesses that might want to open at the airport.

"I don't want it so narrowly written so that it's only those two because I do believe in public enterprise people coming out there with other businesses," she said.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 5, 2011, 6:58 AM
Post #187 of 277 (1622 views)
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Re: [freefalle] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I heard they accepted the invitation with a dead fish wrapped in a newspaper.
Just a rumor.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Jan 5, 2011, 6:59 AM)


turtlespeed

Jan 5, 2011, 7:53 AM
Post #188 of 277 (1599 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
or the people choosing not to go are such a small number that it makes no difference.


Bingo, that is usually the case in situations like this. That is why I don't usually worry about telling someone who is being an ass to not come to my boogie. Most people have an over inflated view of their influence on other people.

But - you keep inviting ME back?Laugh


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 5, 2011, 12:51 PM
Post #189 of 277 (1524 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

"No documentation of a contract pretty much means there is no contract since no one really knows what the terms were. Where there provisions for rate hikes??? No one knows"

Your words and as you say you know whats going on. Well I call bullshit when I see it. You are stating that SDC and TK were just paying billy for 13 years without knowing why and how much. SDC and TK are running a business and if you think they had no Idea on what the deal was your are just plan stupid. Again I call bullshit when I see. WHO ARE YOU KIDDING

Disclaimer: I do work for the Ranch. For Joe and love it. He is easy to work for.I have NOidea of any details. As far as this thread I read for entertainment purposes only. Zhills is a nice place. I have been there a couple times. I just choose not to go till this mess is over.


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Jan 5, 2011, 1:31 PM)


Ron

Jan 5, 2011, 1:57 PM
Post #190 of 277 (1480 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well I call bullshit when I see it.

Then you should be callin bullshit on your boss.

Quote:
You are stating that SDC and TK were just paying billy for 13 years without knowing why and how much

Nope, please re read and try again. I said that without a written contract there was no way to know if there:
1. Was an exclusive use provision.
2. If there was a provision for raising the rate.

Read those two points three of four times and then try to answer how , without anything in writting, you can prove what was agreed on 13+ years ago.

Also remember that Billy had taken his planes from Zhills several times and therefore would have violated any contract.

And without a process to raise the rates.... Each new rate hike was a new verbal 'contract'

Also realize that your side has had it's ass handed to it in court.

Quote:
Disclaimer: I do work for the Ranch. For Joe and love it.

Great... I don't work for anyone involved so we know your opinion is already jaded.

Quote:
I just choose not to go till this mess is over.

Your loss, enjoy the coldWink


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 5, 2011, 2:05 PM
Post #191 of 277 (1474 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Boarding season is in. Let it snow let it snow...Wink Oh and I enjoyed the warm weather too.
http://www.youtube.com/...um#p/u/0/qR8vuqhL7LM
edited to add
"your opinion is already jaded."

Well I love my job and work place. So if that makes me jaded then so be it. As stated before I dont have any info on this matter nor care. Just find this thread amusing in its actuation's and lack of facts. (hear say) The name calling is funny tooWink I just choose not to go to zhills in support to the people that are good to me and my boss JOE R. is very good to me. Its call loyalty. Good luck to all parties involved.


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Jan 5, 2011, 2:23 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 5, 2011, 2:19 PM
Post #192 of 277 (1454 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to see you had a good time, sorry you had to return to the cold.
It's still nice here in Florida.

I had heard Sebastian was attracting a lot of freefliers, what happened to that?Tongue


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 5, 2011, 2:24 PM
Post #193 of 277 (1448 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nice to see you had a good time, sorry you had to return to the cold.
It's still nice here in Florida.

I had heard Sebastian was attracting a lot of freefliers, what happened to that?Tongue

That's what happens when you shoot TV all the time. Wink


Ron

Jan 5, 2011, 3:20 PM
Post #194 of 277 (1412 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As stated before I dont have any info on this matter nor care.

Well you claim to not care, but your posting says you do care.

Quote:
Just find this thread amusing in its actuation's and lack of facts. (hear say)

I have facts from several different sources.

Quote:
The name calling is funny too

Please show one example of me calling someone a name.

Quote:
Good luck to all parties involved.

No one has wished anyone from the Ranch otherwise.

Enjoy your boarding... I may be doing that for the first time this year myself.


(This post was edited by Ron on Jan 5, 2011, 3:26 PM)


jrsample  (D License)

Jan 5, 2011, 4:08 PM
Post #195 of 277 (1388 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Joe and Billy are two completely different kinds of people.

Joe can be the voice of reason and civility. Billy on the other hand is an egomaniac.

Have you ever had Billy berate you? I have seen him abuse, belittle, insult, literally scream at people who he either disagreed with or he just felt like abusing. He makes people feel small for the sake of his own ego. He is smart but he is very very difficult to deal with if things do not go exactly as he wants them to. Sure, he may be the life of the party but he will rip your lungs out at the drop of a hat.

Don't forget that Billy has always owned 30something percent of SDC and when he needed rates to go up he had some major say. Seems to me that the other shareholders and the board of directors finally had their say.

JR


captain1976  (D 7183)

Jan 5, 2011, 5:02 PM
Post #196 of 277 (1353 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen him abuse, belittle, insult, literally scream at people who he either disagreed with or he just felt like abusing. He makes people feel small for the sake of his own ego.
JR
I've heard the same thing. Sounds like a real head case! My experience is you can't reason with people who demonstrate disorders like his known superiority complex.

Someone with that personality doesn't give a shit about safety considerations, they only know what they want; Like a dog who wants a bone.

2 operations at DeLand would simply be dangerous.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 5, 2011, 7:16 PM
Post #197 of 277 (1300 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice video Jerry, I'm bummed that we didn't do a boogie trip this year. Last new year's eve I was jumping into Skydive City, was the first one down (to the landing area!) after midnight which was fun.

I'm proud to be a Ranch hand and appreciate Billy for letting me jump into his back yard (literally, the DZ is his yard) every weekend. I don't think this really has anything to do with us regular sky jumping folk (although, being an employee is a little different). Having said that, there was so little difference between choosing Skydive City over Sebastian last time we did the trip that I think I'd probably go to Sebastian next time even if this issue was resolved. The ocean views look pretty amazing. It'd be hard dragging some of my friends over there who've been going to Skydive City for years because of all their friends but I think change is good.

This isn't meant to be a negative comment about Skydive City but I can't help feel at least a little loyalty to Billy and the Ranch, the two are hard to separate. I imagine it's the same for people jumping at Skydive City, I don't fault anyone for that. All I wanted to point out to people was that these things are never black and white.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 5, 2011, 8:18 PM
Post #198 of 277 (1282 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Nicely put.

Blues.

Cool


Krip  (Student)

Jan 5, 2011, 9:27 PM
Post #199 of 277 (1268 views)
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Re: [freefalle] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

 Hi FF
Quote:
Officials hope an agreement can be worked out in time for a commission meeting Feb. 7.


Thanks for the heads up the soap opera continues

Feb 7ShockedDid the officals leave out the year on purpose. Anyone want to start a poll about how long it will take to reach a agreement other I'll start with never or the lawyer option. 1 month sounds very optomistic.

OTOH SDC and Z-hills worked out of the same airport etc and it basically worked no one died, maybe some go arounds due to conflicts on jump run.

Wasn't there very much, it was pre TK any locals know how much of a conflict it caused? Wasn't BR part of SDC rom the begining ?


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Jan 6, 2011, 2:49 AM
Post #200 of 277 (1250 views)
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Re: [captain1976] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone with that personality doesn't give a shit about safety considerations, they only know what they want; Like a dog who wants a bone.

I'm no shrink as I doubt most of the critics of Billy's psychological makeup are, but as a 20+ year Ranch member, I can say that the above description could be taken as generally accepted knowledge. It isn't new to anyone who knows Billy. But I have to defend him against this comment, that someone like Billy "...doesn't give a shit about safety..." This statement is a broad and indefensible argument, and further, shows that the speaker doesn't actually know Billy. He is a certifiable nut case; only an idiot or a fool would attempt to describe him otherwise. And he takes a certain libertarian perspective on personal behavior and responsibility, but he is absolutely passionate about safety and the safe operations and actions of skydivers, pilots and anyone else associated with the sport. Say what you will about his business practices, his friendship cementing practices, his social graces. But he has shown enough regard for safety in too many ways to allow the comment that he doesn't care to pass without comment.


captain1976  (D 7183)

Jan 6, 2011, 3:19 AM
Post #201 of 277 (2585 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Someone with that personality doesn't give a shit about safety considerations, they only know what they want; Like a dog who wants a bone.

I'm no shrink as I doubt most of the critics of Billy's psychological makeup are, but as a 20+ year Ranch member, I can say that the above description could be taken as generally accepted knowledge. It isn't new to anyone who knows Billy. But I have to defend him against this comment, that someone like Billy "...doesn't give a shit about safety..." This statement is a broad and indefensible argument, and further, shows that the speaker doesn't actually know Billy. He is a certifiable nut case; only an idiot or a fool would attempt to describe him otherwise. And he takes a certain libertarian perspective on personal behavior and responsibility, but he is absolutely passionate about safety and the safe operations and actions of skydivers, pilots and anyone else associated with the sport. Say what you will about his business practices, his friendship cementing practices, his social graces. But he has shown enough regard for safety in too many ways to allow the comment that he doesn't care to pass without comment.


Thanks for your input kimemerson

The skies filled with canopies on one end of the field has been the norm for many years.

Pilots who frequent DeLand know where they are and where to look. Put a second operation at the other end of the field and you create a dangerous situation.

Skydiving isnít the only activity at DeLand. This reliever airport for Daytona Beach and Sanford International Airports has plenty of aviation support businesses.

Maintenance facilities, fuel, hangers and about 160 based aircraft also share DED.

As a flyer I use extra caution when using the airport, but knowing where jumpers are I take the acceptable risk of going there.

With 2 skydiving operations, many other aviators will fuel and conduct general aviation business elsewhere.

Itís simply a safety issue.


(This post was edited by captain1976 on Jan 6, 2011, 3:20 AM)


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Jan 6, 2011, 5:50 AM
Post #202 of 277 (2557 views)
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Re: [Krip] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OTOH SDC and Z-hills worked out of the same airport etc and it basically worked no one died, maybe some go arounds due to conflicts on jump run.

Actually it was pretty much a nightmare here and it was the reason that I (and many of my friends) completely stopped coming to Zephyrhills for skydiving.

Not only finger-pointing, letters of complaints being filed at all levels of government and the FAA, but unsafe practices on the runways and in the air. - there were deliberate attempts to put people's lives in danger hoping to make the other side look bad. I was actually on those loads.

"Some go rounds due to conflicts" was/is an understatement

We left and I returned only once I think just to visit some friends until after Phoenix packed up and moved in 1994.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 6, 2011, 7:03 AM
Post #203 of 277 (2521 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

This Post is not at you TK per say just last reply.

I just think the skydivers should skydive and let the big dogs deal with this mess. The name call and all the false statements is just silly. The only people that know about the agreement are the people that were in the room at that time ( no written contract) BOTH side will say thier side and the truth lies In the middle somewhere hens why they were/are in court. For people to say well sdc is right because they won everything in court is silly to. Guilty people get off all the time. It's America, our court system is fuxked. Again good luck to both sides and hope it's finished soon so we can talk about swooping or something else and again thanks for the entertainment. Blue sky's to all


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Jan 6, 2011, 7:05 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 6, 2011, 7:23 AM
Post #204 of 277 (2510 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I just think the skydivers should skydive and let the big dogs deal with this mess. The name call and all the false statements is just silly

In that case, FFE should have kept their mouths shut, and not distributed their version of the details regarding the event via mass e-mail to Ranch jumpers. As far as I can tell, TK only chimed in here to defend himself, and has done nothing in the way of revealing previously unknown details.

Quote:
The only people that know about the agreement are the people that were in the room at that time ( no written contract)

True, however FFE admits that they proposed a rate hike, which means that it was not a part of the origianl agreement. If it was part of the original agreement, it would not have been proposed, but simply implemented at the scheduled date.

I think the fact that really skews this in the favor of SDC is that any decisions made by SDC are the result of the partners voting and the majority ruling. What this means is that it's not the personal motivations of one single person driving the decision making, it's the collective motivations of the majority of the partners. The chances that all of the partners, some of whom have been in business and partners with Billy for a very long time, are all basing their decisions purely on the basis of screwing over FFE is very slim. Much slimmer than the chances that Billy, the sole decision maker for FFE, is making his decisions based somewhat on a personal basis.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 6, 2011, 9:58 AM
Post #205 of 277 (2453 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok I'll try this one more time. It's a business owners right to raise prices if he/she chooses. It's also the right of the customer to refuse said increase. So I don't think anyone is at fault here. TK and majority voted not to use FFE fine. You cant blame Billy for wanting to keep making money down there. The problem I have is the mud sling. It's easy to sit in a warm house and talk shit on the Internet. So my point is everyone should just shut the fuck up and let those involved handle it. I also don't see a problem with FFE Communicating with it's customer on whats going on and asking for support. That what they did ask for support. I'll give it. They have been nothing but good to me :)
On another note the guy the flies in to deland. You are use the same excuse that pilots use when a new dz is trying open at airport
with no dz. With your logic we wouldn't have any dzs except ones
like the ranch because it's private property. There are operational
requirements in place so if everyone follows them it will work.
Nobody likes change but it's coming. On that note I'm done. I'm just
talking to a bunch of Billy bashing peeps. What is everyone scard of if it's not going to happen.
Blues skies


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Jan 6, 2011, 10:18 AM)


thewrench1

Jan 6, 2011, 12:07 PM
Post #206 of 277 (2412 views)
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Re: [captain1976] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

isn"t deland the dropzone that had the porter crash on takeoff and a twin otter hit a skydiver under canopy?


jrsample  (D License)

Jan 6, 2011, 12:21 PM
Post #207 of 277 (2395 views)
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Re: [thewrench1] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
isn"t deland the dropzone that had the porter crash on takeoff and a twin otter hit a skydiver under canopy?

Sure Tom. Just like the Ranch had an observer/passenger walk into a spinning prop.

JR


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 6, 2011, 1:09 PM
Post #208 of 277 (2367 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

FAA is loving this shit for sure... keep slinging mud and none of us will be jumping!!!! Goes for both sides..


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 6, 2011, 2:10 PM
Post #209 of 277 (2339 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
On another note the guy the flies in to deland. You are use the same excuse that pilots use when a new dz is trying open at airport
with no dz.

Not exactly. If there is an already existing DZ at an airport, and another DZ wants to open and have an LZ on the other end of the airport, that represents a much bigger problem than one DZ in one area of an airport. With two LZs and two planes dropping jumpers at the same time, there is no longer a 'safe zone' anywhere near the airport where pilots can expect clear air.

When you factor in an already busy airport with an already busy DZ, you can see where trying to add another, seperate DZ to the field might be problematic.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 6, 2011, 3:28 PM
Post #210 of 277 (2316 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FAA is loving this shit for sure... keep slinging mud and none of us will be jumping!!!! Goes for both sides..


Bingo


Ron

Jan 6, 2011, 3:39 PM
Post #211 of 277 (2329 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So my point is everyone should just shut the fuck up and let those involved handle it.

And

Quote:
That what they did ask for support. I'll give it. They have been nothing but good to me :)

Don't really jive with each other. On one hand you are saying everyone should just stay out of it, then you say you are helping one party.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Jan 6, 2011, 4:52 PM
Post #212 of 277 (2294 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
isn"t deland the dropzone that had the porter crash on takeoff and a twin otter hit a skydiver under canopy?

Sure Tom. Just like the Ranch had an observer/passenger walk into a spinning prop.

JR
Well, I can't say anything about the Porter in DeLand but something is familiar about that. (Possibly when filming Drop Zone & Patty Wagstaff was piloting the Porter that crashed? Maybe not tat. I don't know.) And a twin otter did indeed hit someone under canopy.

But the Ranch did not have an observer/passenger walk into a prop. A FFE plane was involved in such an incident years ago but it was not at the Ranch. Might have been Raeford. It also ended the practice of allowing observer rides on FFE aircraft. Just helping with facts, folks. Carry on.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jan 6, 2011, 5:08 PM
Post #213 of 277 (2283 views)
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Re: [captain1976] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've heard the same thing. Sounds like a real head case! My experience is you can't reason with people who demonstrate disorders like his known superiority inferiority complex.

I fixed it for you. The behavior described is indicative of an inferiority complex.

Sparky


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 6, 2011, 8:51 PM
Post #214 of 277 (2224 views)
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Re: [captain1976] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll never forget the first jump I made in Deland...when I was under canopy it only took a second to realize there were six aircraft close enough to me to see the pilot's faces. I was in the pattern!

Now when I looked at the property that FFE wants to lease, I noticed there is no property around it, which means they will have to use the center of the airport for landings. Across the taxiway. Where the student landing area is for Skydive Deland.
I wonder if they will have an awesome restaurant and bar like Skydive Deland does?
This will be interesting to say the least.


captain1976  (D 7183)

Jan 7, 2011, 4:40 PM
Post #215 of 277 (2130 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I've heard the same thing. Sounds like a real head case! My experience is you can't reason with people who demonstrate disorders like his known superiority inferiority complex.

I fixed it for you. The behavior described is indicative of an inferiority complex.

Sparky

Thanks Sparky


captain1976  (D 7183)

Jan 7, 2011, 4:42 PM
Post #216 of 277 (2129 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if they will have an awesome restaurant and bar like Skydive Deland does?
Maybe Bill will just serve in-flight meals, he'll have to do something to get the experienced while the rest of us boycott.


Krip  (Student)

Jan 7, 2011, 6:53 PM
Post #217 of 277 (2100 views)
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Re: [captain1976] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Captain

When SDC opened next to Z-hills. BR and his partners offered a lot of freebee's to give the fun jumpers a real incentive to go there. I expect if BR moves to Deland he will undercut the existing DZ's prices or offer other incentives.

Tandem price wars? maybe
Cheaper lift tickets or extra altitude? Maybe


Remember back in the day when there was a gas station located across the street from ea other one station undercut the competion. then the competition undercut the other guy.

IMO The safety issue isn't worth saving a couple of bucks for the experience jumper and delands loyal customers.

But the tandems and AFFUnsure What do they know. Thats where the real money is. Both DZ's will have the USPA seal of approval as GMDZ's. and turbo's.

Politic's and bullies with deep pocketsSly


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 7, 2011, 7:58 PM
Post #218 of 277 (2078 views)
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Re: [Krip] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Well we see how well that worked out in Zephyrhills....
Tongue


mirage62  (C 15580)

Jan 8, 2011, 2:16 AM
Post #219 of 277 (2043 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

+1


captain1976  (D 7183)

Jan 8, 2011, 3:58 PM
Post #220 of 277 (1959 views)
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Re: [Krip] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Captain

When SDC opened next to Z-hills. BR and his partners offered a lot of freebee's to give the fun jumpers a real incentive to go there. I expect if BR moves to Deland he will undercut the existing DZ's prices or offer other incentives.

Tandem price wars? maybe
Cheaper lift tickets or extra altitude? Maybe


Remember back in the day when there was a gas station located across the street from ea other one station undercut the competion. then the competition undercut the other guy.

IMO The safety issue isn't worth saving a couple of bucks for the experience jumper and delands loyal customers.

But the tandems and AFFUnsure What do they know. Thats where the real money is. Both DZ's will have the USPA seal of approval as GMDZ's. and turbo's.

Politic's and bullies with deep pocketsSly

Hi Krip,


You are correct! The real battle would be "who gets the tandem and student business". The marketing skills of both operations will be put to the test here.

There is a certain amount of loyalty and familiarity that determines where many experienced skydivers frequent.

And listening to the skuttlebutt around DeLand, I think most will boycott any newbie on the field. Especially one as controversial as they are.

Everyone I know or talk to on the subject stands behind TK and Z-Hills on their situation.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 8, 2011, 4:44 PM
Post #221 of 277 (1948 views)
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Re: [captain1976] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Yup.
Cool


Krip  (Student)

Jan 9, 2011, 1:44 AM
Post #222 of 277 (1882 views)
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Re: [captain1976] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Capt

In a competitive enviroment how long can a DZ offer $90 tandems, and low ball AFF $$ to steal customers before they go broke.

I suspect deep pockets can get some peeps from up north to haul the baggage. So if the koals don't want to work in that negative enviroment and the added safety risk . Someone will.

Just hope no one gets killedPirate The other stuff is just money and ego. that can be replaced. A PiratePirate would be really Frown

The $90 is my WAG I pulled out of my butt so no rumor starting here.

The easiest solution would be to buy the empty hanger. But the deep pockets would just build their own hanger if there's room on the airport


3331  (D 3331)

Feb 8, 2011, 11:34 AM
Post #223 of 277 (1641 views)
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Re: [all] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.news-journalonline.com/...diving-decision.html

Crazy


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 8, 2011, 11:55 AM
Post #224 of 277 (1624 views)
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Re: [3331] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I wonder if the outlying circumstances surrounding the opening of the new DZ can or will be brought into consideration.

The history behind FFE and Deland, FFE and Skydive City, the move from FFE to Skydive Deland as an aircraft supplier to Skydive City, and the static FFE has created over in Z-hills in the wake of that switch over should all be looked into.

I know that it's Billy's brother Joe who is standing up in front of the board looking for the approval, and that all of this 'scuttlebutt' might not be related, but the problem I see is that if there is a hint that the motivation for opening this new DZ is anything but an honest effort to open a new business in good-faith, then it should be denied.

So FEE and crew open a DZ across the field from Skydive Deland, and go to work to 'bury' them. They undercut their prices and do whatever it takes to steal their business and make them disappear. Now, the city has traded a 30-year tennant, contributor to the local economy and 'good neighbor' for the remaining FFE backed DZ which is unproven and born out of a desire for revenge. The city and the airport would have been better off just sticking with one DZ, the one that has proven itself for the last three decades.

Is there any sort of system for city residents or other airport tennants to comment/object/etc? If there is, I would hope that somebody down there steps up and brings everyone involved up to speed on the back story, and what might really be going on there.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 8, 2011, 2:32 PM
Post #225 of 277 (1570 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.faa.gov/...ia/5190_6b_chap8.pdf

Quote:
Chapter 8. Exclusive Rights

8.1. Introduction. This chapter describes the sponsor's federal obligations under Grant Assurance 23, Exclusive Rights, which prohibits an airport sponsor from granting an exclusive right for the use of the airport, including granting an exclusive right to any person or entity providing or intending to provide aeronautical services to the public. In particular, the sponsor may not grant a special privilege or a monopoly to anyone providing aeronautical services on the airport or engaging in an aeronautical use. The intent of this restriction is to promote aeronautical activity and protect fair competition at federally obligated airports.

a. Conditions for Denial.

The assurance prohibiting the granting of an exclusive right does not penalize a sponsor for continuing an existing single provider when both of the following
conditions exist:

(1). It can be demonstrated that it would be unreasonably costly, burdensome, or impractical for
more than one entity to provide the service, and

(2). The sponsor would have to reduce the leased space that is currently being used for an aeronautical purpose by the existing provider in order to accommodate a second provider. In the case of denying additional providers, the sponsor must have adequate justification and documentation of the facts supporting its decision acceptable to the FAA.
Both conditions must be met. (See 49 U.S.C. ß 47107(a)(4)(A and B)

b. Demonstrable Need. When the service provider has space in excess of its reasonable needs and the sponsor claims it is justified based on the service provider's future needs, the FAA may find the sponsor in violation of the exclusive rights prohibition if the service provider is banking land and/or facilities that it cannot put to gainful aeronautical use in a reasonable period of time and/or the vacant property controlled by the service provider denies a competitor from gaining
entry onto the airport.
Quote:

You'll have to wait to see what the FAA safety study says, and if it says there is no reason a second "SASO" can't be accommodated then it cost the City of Deland a lot of federal funding to say no.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Feb 8, 2011, 2:32 PM)


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Feb 10, 2011, 8:20 PM
Post #226 of 277 (1943 views)
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Re: [stratostar] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL. I just realized something.

There's friction at Deland becuase a Freefall Express owner doesn't get along with the other dz on site.

At the airport in MO where the two dz's don't get along, one of the operators is called Freefall Express (totally different company).

The name must be cursed.

-Blind


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Feb 11, 2011, 3:05 AM
Post #227 of 277 (1908 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply

The name must be cursed.

-Blind
Pending results, it could be blessed.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Feb 12, 2011, 4:37 AM
Post #228 of 277 (1731 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

search florida corporations on the govt website and then look up Blue Sky Entertainment Inc. Note the "ACTive" corporation and then check the officers etc.

Blii Richards is President and CEO. I think that whenever you get Joe, you are gonna get Billy, except maybe on Joe's home mortgage or something like that.


3331  (D 3331)

Feb 12, 2011, 4:08 PM
Post #229 of 277 (1621 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.sunbiz.org/...p;names_filing_type=


turtlespeed

Feb 12, 2011, 4:43 PM
Post #230 of 277 (1608 views)
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Re: [3331] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post


Foreighn Profit? I guess out of state is foreign to New Yorkers.


NYKid  (C 99999)

Feb 12, 2011, 5:34 PM
Post #231 of 277 (1600 views)
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Re: [turtlespeed] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

It's Florida that thinks it's Foreighn.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 12, 2011, 5:41 PM
Post #232 of 277 (1594 views)
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Re: [turtlespeed] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Foreighn Profit? I guess out of state is foreign to New Yorkers.

Unimpressed "Foreign corporation" is a standard term for when a corporation formed in and headquartered in State A registers to do business in State B. A "domestic" corporation is a corportation formed and headquartered in the same state in which it's registered. I'm pretty sure all states use these terms in this context.

In this case, out of state is "foreign" to Florida, not New York.

http://appext9.dos.state.ny.us/..._srch_results_page=0

ETA: oops, NYKid said it 6 minutes before I did.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Feb 12, 2011, 5:42 PM)


jrsample  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 1:44 PM
Post #233 of 277 (1456 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[reply

The name must be cursed.

-Blind

Pending results, it could be blessed.
Drink Billy's Koolaid... nom nom nom

JR


Scrumpot  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 7:37 PM
Post #234 of 277 (1382 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

It was "FLAVOR-AID" DAMMIT (pet-peeve time)... The bastard (Jim Jones, referring to here - no PA's on any parties hereto) couldn't even serve up his minions the fricken real stuff for cryin' out loud!! Mad Mad Unsure

Get it right.

[/rant]


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Feb 13, 2011, 7:44 PM)


jrsample  (D License)

Mar 28, 2011, 6:34 PM
Post #235 of 277 (1228 views)
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Re: [normiss] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well we see how well that worked out in Zephyrhills....
Tongue

Looks like a two pronged attack on Florida DZs is being waged by Freefall Express. Kay Hoiby-Griep was in Zephyrhills today at the airport commission meeting trying to get permission to open another DZ on the Z-Hills airport.

JR


jackwallace  (Student)

Mar 29, 2011, 4:06 PM
Post #236 of 277 (1107 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

This strikes me as bad business all around. Doesn't this just open up the "invading" DZ's airport to anyone coming there and setting up an operation whenever they want?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 29, 2011, 4:31 PM
Post #237 of 277 (1094 views)
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Re: [jackwallace] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

It's called free interprise. Few DZs own the place they fly out of.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 29, 2011, 4:33 PM
Post #238 of 277 (1090 views)
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Re: [jackwallace] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

>Doesn't this just open up the "invading" DZ's airport to anyone coming there and
>setting up an operation whenever they want?

Yeah. So? We had two DZ's at Spadaro's airport in New York before SLI moved. Perris has two schools on the DZ. Seems to work OK.


jerm  (D 23994)

Mar 29, 2011, 4:39 PM
Post #239 of 277 (1086 views)
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Re: [jackwallace] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Doesn't this just open up the "invading" DZ's airport to anyone coming there and setting up an operation whenever they want?

in some cases that would be true, but in this case:
a) freefall express isn't a dz, it's an aircraft company
2) even if you count the Ranch as "the invading DZ" because of its close ties with FFE, the airport is privately owned by a group of ranch hands, never mind it _really_ doesn't have the room for another operation.


jrsample  (D License)

Mar 29, 2011, 5:27 PM
Post #240 of 277 (1067 views)
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Re: [jackwallace] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This strikes me as bad business all around. Doesn't this just open up the "invading" DZ's airport to anyone coming there and setting up an operation whenever they want?

Freefall Express in Gardiner, NY bought the nearby Kobelt Airport in Wallkill, NY for just that purpose. It was bought to keep a competing DZ from opening nearby.

This "invader" is after one thing by trying to open a DZ in either Deland or Z-Hills. Revenge.

Have you seen the You Tube video where the mean kid/bully gets a well deserved whipping by the fat kid?

JR


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 29, 2011, 6:16 PM
Post #241 of 277 (1065 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Care to post a source for that remark?


jrsample  (D License)

Mar 30, 2011, 4:57 AM
Post #242 of 277 (1002 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Care to post a source for that remark?

You think they bought it to run a restaurant?!
You think they bought it for those piece of crap hangars or the beat-up runway?

They bought it to keep another DZ away.

Go ask Billy, Kay, Joe, Kenny.

JR


jerm  (D 23994)

Mar 30, 2011, 5:00 AM
Post #243 of 277 (1000 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

was this back when STL got kicked out of orange county, or something else?


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Mar 30, 2011, 5:21 AM
Post #244 of 277 (990 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Care to post a source for that remark?

You think they bought it to run a restaurant?!
You think they bought it for those piece of crap hangars or the beat-up runway?

They bought it to keep another DZ away.

Go ask Billy, Kay, Joe, Kenny.

JR


hmmmm i don't buy your premise....Unimpressed

if the hangars are "crap", if the runway is "beat Up". then who the hell would wanna try to run a DZ outta there..in the first place.???

whether you believe it or not...... I THINK the people of FF Express are... deep down..... Aviation Enthusiasts...TongueCoolWink
Pilots, Skydivers AND Entrepreneurs....Cool
Kobelt is near by, convenient, a place to keep a few airplanes, a place to perform maintenance..do touch and goes, train pilots.... a place to have extra space, without crowding the already busy areas @ Sand Hill Airport.... Why can't it simply be Just that easy......?ShockedCrazy

Besides, given the loyalty factor of those who frequent the ranch, and given the solidity with which the place is operated, and given the wealth of talent and the great chance to have a FUn FUN time, @ the Ranch... i'd feel that it would be foolish at best.... for ANYone to try to open any DZ at Kobelt...Jumpers there,,,, would ( if they are smart ) quickly realize, that a BETTER place,,is "just around the corner"
Can't a thriving and profitable Enterprise simple continue to grow ,( they've been around for Decades and decades...) in holdings and aircraft.. without EVERYone wanting to jump all over these accomplishments and growth.. and trying to label things which they are Not..??? lots of people sound a bit jealous,,, but what do i KNOW?????
my $.02
jmy


tb182  (D 4226)

Mar 30, 2011, 3:30 PM
Post #245 of 277 (883 views)
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Re: [billvon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

The operation at Spadaro's Airport involved a private club operating a Cessna 182 and a student operation run by one of the club members, also operating a Cessna 182. I flew skydivers there for 30 years and there were some conflicts. That is different then 2 big skydiving companies flying up to 5 turbine aircraft each at busy times.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 30, 2011, 4:07 PM
Post #246 of 277 (877 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Care to post a source for that remark?

You think they bought it to run a restaurant?!
You think they bought it for those piece of crap hangars or the beat-up runway?

They bought it to keep another DZ away.

Go ask Billy, Kay, Joe, Kenny.

JR
So let me see if I have this straight. You're saying that one business hoping to prevent a competing business from operating too close nearby is bad form? And though I've been jumping at the Ranch for a mere 22 years some things have managed to escape my notice. So, which skydiving operation was it that Billy stopped or tried to stop? This must have been a while ago because Billy already owned the restaurant as of maybe 10 years ago. He had been keeping some of his other aircraft there even before that. In fact, his relationship with Kopbelt goes back before my time - or damn close to it. So, I'm with Dan on this one in that it would be nice if you somehow documented your claims. Because it could be me and it could be you but me thinks it's you, stranger. You see, Billy may well be an entrepreneurial opportunist and not everybody cares for predatory business practices. But Billy is also real estate savvy and has bought up several properties in Gardiner for whatever reason he has. Which, as he and I are not partners and not best buddies, I can only speculate on. Which is all anyone here with the possible exception of TK can do. So, I don't know, back it up bub. Or at least accept that you're just guessing and really don't know.


jrsample  (D License)

Mar 30, 2011, 4:52 PM
Post #247 of 277 (859 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You see, Billy may well be an entrepreneurial opportunist and not everybody cares for predatory business practices. But Billy is also real estate savvy and has bought up several properties in Gardiner for whatever reason he has. Which, as he and I are not partners and not best buddies, I can only speculate on. Which is all anyone here with the possible exception of TK can do. So, I don't know, back it up bub. Or at least accept that you're just guessing and really don't know.

Let's keep on topic. My intent was to put forth that FFX bought the nearby airport to protect themselves from any competitor should one arise. It's not an indictment.

Neither Skydive Deland nor Skydive City have similar abilities. They are subject to Billy's "predatory business practices". FFX could far more easily open up a new DZ at a number of other airports in Florida with healthy markets in towns where they would be welcomed. Instead they go after existing markets on public airports where the operation of another dropzone WILL be difficult if not unsafe and cause strife and unrest. These efforts appear to be malicious.

WHY?

Ask Billy, Joe, Kay... and let us know.

JR


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 30, 2011, 6:12 PM
Post #248 of 277 (834 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply
Let's keep on topic. My intent was to put forth that FFX bought the nearby airport to protect themselves from any competitor should one arise.But you are just guessing, right? You don't actually know this as a fact that can be supported - even anecdotally - do you? I'm just asking because you speak (type) without hesitation or reserve, sounding every bit like someone who does know. So I'm just wondering how you know. Could you tell us that much? Because my guess is that the airport was never bought with that specific intention as the sole and main thrust behind the purchase. It might well serve as an additional security but I don't believe that keeping any other DZ from operating nearby was what prompted the sale. And if that were the case, Billy would have to busy himself and go through his money a bit more aggressively than that because Kobelt isn't the only airport within shouting distance of the Ranch. So, I would just like to hear or see something a bit more tangible than your guessing as long as you are going to comment with an air of authority and certainty.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 30, 2011, 6:58 PM
Post #249 of 277 (817 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Who give a fuck. This has nothing to do with what is going on in Fla, and nothing good will come from any of this.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 30, 2011, 7:18 PM
Post #250 of 277 (806 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Who give a fuck. This has nothing to do with what is going on in Fla, and nothing good will come from any of this.
Who asked you?
1. If Billy and his habits had nothing to do with this the whole fucking thread wouldn't even exist.
2. If we keep ourselves to that which will produce only good, we wouldn't be skydiving.
3. What are you contributing that does have something to do with it and will come to any good?

Try not being such a fucking bore.


jrsample  (D License)

Mar 30, 2011, 7:20 PM
Post #251 of 277 (1987 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[reply
Let's keep on topic. My intent was to put forth that FFX bought the nearby airport to protect themselves from any competitor should one arise.
But you are just guessing, right? You don't actually know this as a fact that can be supported - even anecdotally - do you? I'm just asking because you speak (type) without hesitation or reserve, sounding every bit like someone who does know. So I'm just wondering how you know. Could you tell us that much? Because my guess is that the airport was never bought with that specific intention as the sole and main thrust behind the purchase. It might well serve as an additional security but I don't believe that keeping any other DZ from operating nearby was what prompted the sale. And if that were the case, Billy would have to busy himself and go through his money a bit more aggressively than that because Kobelt isn't the only airport within shouting distance of the Ranch. So, I would just like to hear or see something a bit more tangible than your guessing as long as you are going to comment with an air of authority and certainty.
Let's keep this on topic.

Why would a "savvy real estate investor" spend the time and effort in such a predatory way as to start a DZ at either Deland or Z-Hills?

JR

btw: I know for a fact that Kobelt was bought as a preemptive strike against any competition there. I will not tell you how.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 30, 2011, 7:27 PM
Post #252 of 277 (1981 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I've contributed about the same as you have. Well, now I'm a little ahead of you.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 30, 2011, 7:52 PM
Post #253 of 277 (1967 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why would a "savvy real estate investor" spend the time and effort in such a predatory way as to start a DZ at either Deland or Z-Hills?

JR

btw: I know for a fact that Kobelt was bought as a preemptive strike against any competition there. I will not tell you how.

There's no reason it has to be one or the other. It's possible for a person to hold real estate for other reasons than protecting ones 'territory', and to try opening a couple of DZ in Florida out of spite.

In terms of the other airport FFX owns, you both may be correct. If Billy did indeed own the restaurant there, and house airplanes there (presumably owning a hanger or two), buying the airport might have made business sense, and one factor considered was that he would never allow a competing DZ to operate there. It might have been one factor on a long list that lead to the purchase.

In terms of trying to open DZs in Deland and Z-Hills, that has to be revenge, pure and simple. There's no way it's a coincidence that the two airports where he wants to place DZs also happen to be home to the two DZs in the state where he lost major, long standing business contracts. As stated before, and so obvious is almost doesn't need to be stated, there are DOZENS of other ariports in Fla where you could open a great DZ provided you had some money and some airplanes.

Who's got a couple of turbines down near Miami? How close can you get to Orlando International and run a couple Otters? What about on the beach near Jacksonville for Fla and Ga jumpers? The list goes on...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 30, 2011, 9:05 PM
Post #254 of 277 (1949 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Your one warning. Cut it out.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 31, 2011, 3:45 AM
Post #255 of 277 (1928 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
btw: I know for a fact that Kobelt was bought as a preemptive strike against any competition there. I will not tell you how.

I don't see this as a problem.
Everyone is free to buy any property for any reason.
What's the big deal?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 31, 2011, 8:41 AM
Post #256 of 277 (1866 views)
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Re: [tb182] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

>The operation at Spadaro's Airport involved a private club operating a
>Cessna 182 and a student operation run by one of the club members,
>also operating a Cessna 182.

Well, SLI had two 182's for quite a while, but agreed.

>I flew skydivers there for 30 years and there were some conflicts.

Also agreed, although those conflicts were due far more to personalities than the skydiving operations. There are some conflicts between the two schools at Perris, as well. But overall they do far more to help each other than to harm each other.




danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 31, 2011, 9:31 PM
Post #258 of 277 (1760 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In terms of the other airport FFX owns, you both may be correct.
Do we know it's FFX that owns the airport because as far as I know, FFX doesn't own the Ranch or Kobelt.

For the record, Kobelt basically faces north-south and our prevailing winds are generally east-west so that may have presented a problem but also makes for a great alternate landing area. http://maps.google.com/...857&t=h&z=14

jrsample, if you know this for a fact, I'm not sure why you're asking us to find proof if you already have it. You're the one who characterized the purchase that way and then wouldn't back it up except to allude to some inside knowledge. It's totally beside the point in any case, and as a couple of people have said, not unusual or really an issue anyway. You're coloring your comments to suggest it's a bad thing and in fact, that argument would support Skydive City and Deland more than it'd support what Billy's doing in that area - stopping competitors when there are viable alternatives.

Personally I hope that the two DZ don't go ahead and, if they're not economically viable, I'd expect that Billy/Joe won't proceed because I hope this is about money. Yes, I know I'm being naive and overly optimistic, no need to state the obvious. Tongue


jrsample  (D License)

Apr 1, 2011, 7:24 AM
Post #259 of 277 (1694 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In terms of the other airport FFX owns, you both may be correct.
Do we know it's FFX that owns the airport because as far as I know, FFX doesn't own the Ranch or Kobelt.

For the record, Kobelt basically faces north-south and our prevailing winds are generally east-west so that may have presented a problem but also makes for a great alternate landing area. http://maps.google.com/...857&t=h&z=14

jrsample, if you know this for a fact, I'm not sure why you're asking us to find proof if you already have it. You're the one who characterized the purchase that way and then wouldn't back it up except to allude to some inside knowledge. It's totally beside the point in any case, and as a couple of people have said, not unusual or really an issue anyway. You're coloring your comments to suggest it's a bad thing and in fact, that argument would support Skydive City and Deland more than it'd support what Billy's doing in that area - stopping competitors when there are viable alternatives.

Personally I hope that the two DZ don't go ahead and, if they're not economically viable, I'd expect that Billy/Joe won't proceed because I hope this is about money. Yes, I know I'm being naive and overly optimistic, no need to state the obvious. Tongue

This is not about whether FFX owns Kobelt. It's about the fact that FFX can and did protect themselves from encroachment by competitors whereas Skydive Deland and Skydive City cannot. FFX is the wolf at the door. FFX is not there asking to play. They are there to disrupt both communities where existing markets are satisfied and happy. Both cities are happy with the drop zones and the patrons of both are happy with their DZ.

Leading up to 1990 the City of Z-Hills was pretty fed up with George Kabeller. There were enough customers fed up too. FFX and friends went in and started another DZ under the auspices of the city and after huge hassles and many unsafe incidents Skydive City prevailed. There is no such need at Z-Hills now. FFX is going in as a spoiler. It's going to cost them far more than developing a new market but Billy doesn't care. It's about being a vindictive megalomaniac.

JR


Ron

Apr 1, 2011, 8:14 AM
Post #260 of 277 (1661 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
FFX and friends went in and started another DZ under the auspices of the city and after huge hassles and many unsafe incidents Skydive City prevailed. There is no such need at Z-Hills now.

Fact is that FFE did once already EXACTLY what they are trying to do now.

Make no mistake, I think it is a vindictive move now.... But it was no nicer back then.


jrsample  (D License)

Apr 1, 2011, 8:44 AM
Post #261 of 277 (1644 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
FFX and friends went in and started another DZ under the auspices of the city and after huge hassles and many unsafe incidents Skydive City prevailed. There is no such need at Z-Hills now.

Fact is that FFE did once already EXACTLY what they are trying to do now.

Make no mistake, I think it is a vindictive move now.... But it was no nicer back then.

I should have added that there is no need or desire for a new DZ in either of the two cities where FFX is mounting their current efforts. The comparison to 1990 and SDC opening to the present onslaught was the desire of the city of Z-Hills to have a more friendly DZO than Kabeller. Both Skydive City and Skydive Deland enjoy very high levels of approval in their towns. Neither city is looking for a new DZO as was the case in 1990 Z-Hills. The only motivation now is Billy's ego and the only product of either new DZ would be unsafe skies, bitterness, aggravation, legal battles, etc.

JR


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 1, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #262 of 277 (1632 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

This is from Zhill but it mentions Deland also: http://www2.tbo.com/...enture-p/news-money/


jumpwally  (D License)

Apr 1, 2011, 9:48 AM
Post #263 of 277 (1606 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone know if kabeller is still in skydiving ?


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Apr 2, 2011, 2:51 PM
Post #264 of 277 (1487 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

no, Kabeller is in Brooksville FL somewhere,

Betty is remotely involved in Lake Wales as the FBO, but not really involved in the skydiving anymore,


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 14, 2011, 6:05 AM
Post #265 of 277 (1317 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.news-journalonline.com/...-diving-company.html

Basically a third party consultant recommends Deland reject the application for a second skydiving company.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 14, 2011, 6:44 AM
Post #266 of 277 (1288 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

The whining begins...now they'll have to try for a DZ at city hall, the Sheriff's helicopter hangar, and the flight school.
Tongue


jumpwally  (D License)

Apr 15, 2011, 9:24 AM
Post #267 of 277 (1169 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone know why the DZ at Flagler closed ? That seems like the ideal location for a DZ and Tandem factory....


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 16, 2011, 5:06 PM
Post #268 of 277 (1000 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

update coming soon I bet.....


jrsample  (D License)

May 16, 2011, 6:54 PM
Post #269 of 277 (935 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Tap out Billy. Just tap out.

JR




Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
May 17, 2011, 5:08 AM
Post #271 of 277 (837 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I read on someone's FB post that having 2 skydiving operations in Deland was voted down last night. Yay! Cool


freefalle  (D 27777)

May 17, 2011, 5:33 AM
Post #272 of 277 (820 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyone know why the DZ at Flagler closed ? That seems like the ideal location for a DZ and Tandem factory....

Flagler closed years ago when Rock Evans and his wife divorced. From what I understand there were other factors involved in it's closing which I am not going to speculate about but according to rock and his ex-wife the dz closed when they split up.

About a year ago a friend of mine and I had conversation with the airport manager about having a DZ back at flagler ( we werent considering opening one we just happened to meet the guy are were talking) his thought was that the airport had way to much traffic to support a DZ they have a few flight schools there now and several businesses hanger jets there.

I don't know if he would still have that same thought or if they would be open to it now as I believe some of the flight schools have closed and some of the major companies no longer hanger there....

I'm having lunch with Rocky Evans next week to talk about another small dz he is working on opening... could be interesting


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

May 17, 2011, 6:03 AM
Post #273 of 277 (803 views)
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Re: [freefalle] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Anyone know why the DZ at Flagler closed ? That seems like the ideal location for a DZ and Tandem factory....

Flagler closed years ago when Rock Evans and his wife divorced. From what I understand there were other factors involved in it's closing which I am not going to speculate about but according to rock and his ex-wife the dz closed when they split up.

About a year ago a friend of mine and I had conversation with the airport manager about having a DZ back at flagler ( we werent considering opening one we just happened to meet the guy are were talking) his thought was that the airport had way to much traffic to support a DZ they have a few flight schools there now and several businesses hanger jets there.

I don't know if he would still have that same thought or if they would be open to it now as I believe some of the flight schools have closed and some of the major companies no longer hanger there....

I'm having lunch with Rocky Evans next week to talk about another small dz he is working on opening... could be interesting


You hear that alot.


3331  (D 3331)

May 17, 2011, 6:52 AM
Post #274 of 277 (770 views)
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Re: [all] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.wesh.com/...27920293/detail.html

Cool


stratostar  (Student)

May 17, 2011, 11:03 AM
Post #275 of 277 (711 views)
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Re: [3331] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Well let's wait and see what the FAA safety study will say, cuz the consultant's report and vote of the CC don't mean shit, if anything, for now it helps the other side get their part 13 opened. Even if it's all total BS as to why BR is filing a part 13, the feds are required to review it once it's submitted to them, and then they can decide to act or not on it.

My guess is that under current guidance for federal funded airports they will open it, if it's filed and then conduct a safety study.

http://www.faa.gov/...190-7/150_5190_7.pdf

page # 10

Quote:
f.Skydiving.

Skydiving is an aeronautical activity. Any restriction, limitation, or ban on skydiving on the airport must be based on the grant assurance that provides that the airport sponsor may prohibit or limit aeronautical use for the safe operation of the airport (subject to FAA approval). The following questions present reasonable factors the sponsor might contemplate when developing minimum standards that apply to skydiving:
(1)
Will this activity present or create a safety hazard to the normal operations of aircraft arriving or departing from the airport? If so, has the local Airports District Office (ADO) or the Regional Airports Office been contacted and have those FAA offices sought the assistance from FAA Flight Standards (FS) and Air Traffic (AT) to assess whether safe airport operations would be jeopardized?
(2)
Can skydiving operations be safely accommodated at the airport? Can a drop zone be safely established within the boundaries of the airport? Is guidance in FAA AC-90-66A
Recommended Standards Traffic Patterns and Practices for Aeronautical Operations at Airports Without Operating Control Towers, 14 CFR Part 105 and United States Parachute Associationís (USPA) Basic Safety Requirements being followed?
(3)
What reasonable time periods can be designated for jumping in a manner consistent with Part 105? What experience requirements are needed for an on-airport drop zone?
(4)
What is a reasonable fee that the jumpers and/or their organizations can pay for the privilege of using airport property?
(5)
Has the relevant air traffic control facility been advised of the proposed parachute operation? Does the air traffic control facility have concerns about the efficiency and utility of the airport and its related instrument procedures?
(6)
Will it be necessary to determine the impact of the proposed activity on the efficiency and utility of the airport, related instrument approaches or nearby Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)? If so, has FAA Air Traffic reviewed the matter and issued a finding?


Amazon  (D License)

May 17, 2011, 6:27 PM
Post #276 of 277 (450 views)
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Re: [skymama] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I read on someone's FB post that having 2 skydiving operations in Deland was voted down last night. Yay! Cool


A new version of yankee go home.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 17, 2011, 6:52 PM
Post #277 of 277 (428 views)
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Re: [Amazon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

We're not all here on vacation.
Tongue



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