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"Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence "

 

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jrsample  (D License)

Mar 30, 2011, 7:20 PM
Post #251 of 277 (1989 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[reply
Let's keep on topic. My intent was to put forth that FFX bought the nearby airport to protect themselves from any competitor should one arise.
But you are just guessing, right? You don't actually know this as a fact that can be supported - even anecdotally - do you? I'm just asking because you speak (type) without hesitation or reserve, sounding every bit like someone who does know. So I'm just wondering how you know. Could you tell us that much? Because my guess is that the airport was never bought with that specific intention as the sole and main thrust behind the purchase. It might well serve as an additional security but I don't believe that keeping any other DZ from operating nearby was what prompted the sale. And if that were the case, Billy would have to busy himself and go through his money a bit more aggressively than that because Kobelt isn't the only airport within shouting distance of the Ranch. So, I would just like to hear or see something a bit more tangible than your guessing as long as you are going to comment with an air of authority and certainty.
Let's keep this on topic.

Why would a "savvy real estate investor" spend the time and effort in such a predatory way as to start a DZ at either Deland or Z-Hills?

JR

btw: I know for a fact that Kobelt was bought as a preemptive strike against any competition there. I will not tell you how.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 30, 2011, 7:27 PM
Post #252 of 277 (1983 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I've contributed about the same as you have. Well, now I'm a little ahead of you.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 30, 2011, 7:52 PM
Post #253 of 277 (1969 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why would a "savvy real estate investor" spend the time and effort in such a predatory way as to start a DZ at either Deland or Z-Hills?

JR

btw: I know for a fact that Kobelt was bought as a preemptive strike against any competition there. I will not tell you how.

There's no reason it has to be one or the other. It's possible for a person to hold real estate for other reasons than protecting ones 'territory', and to try opening a couple of DZ in Florida out of spite.

In terms of the other airport FFX owns, you both may be correct. If Billy did indeed own the restaurant there, and house airplanes there (presumably owning a hanger or two), buying the airport might have made business sense, and one factor considered was that he would never allow a competing DZ to operate there. It might have been one factor on a long list that lead to the purchase.

In terms of trying to open DZs in Deland and Z-Hills, that has to be revenge, pure and simple. There's no way it's a coincidence that the two airports where he wants to place DZs also happen to be home to the two DZs in the state where he lost major, long standing business contracts. As stated before, and so obvious is almost doesn't need to be stated, there are DOZENS of other ariports in Fla where you could open a great DZ provided you had some money and some airplanes.

Who's got a couple of turbines down near Miami? How close can you get to Orlando International and run a couple Otters? What about on the beach near Jacksonville for Fla and Ga jumpers? The list goes on...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 30, 2011, 9:05 PM
Post #254 of 277 (1951 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Your one warning. Cut it out.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 31, 2011, 3:45 AM
Post #255 of 277 (1930 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
btw: I know for a fact that Kobelt was bought as a preemptive strike against any competition there. I will not tell you how.

I don't see this as a problem.
Everyone is free to buy any property for any reason.
What's the big deal?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 31, 2011, 8:41 AM
Post #256 of 277 (1868 views)
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Re: [tb182] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

>The operation at Spadaro's Airport involved a private club operating a
>Cessna 182 and a student operation run by one of the club members,
>also operating a Cessna 182.

Well, SLI had two 182's for quite a while, but agreed.

>I flew skydivers there for 30 years and there were some conflicts.

Also agreed, although those conflicts were due far more to personalities than the skydiving operations. There are some conflicts between the two schools at Perris, as well. But overall they do far more to help each other than to harm each other.




danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 31, 2011, 9:31 PM
Post #258 of 277 (1762 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In terms of the other airport FFX owns, you both may be correct.
Do we know it's FFX that owns the airport because as far as I know, FFX doesn't own the Ranch or Kobelt.

For the record, Kobelt basically faces north-south and our prevailing winds are generally east-west so that may have presented a problem but also makes for a great alternate landing area. http://maps.google.com/...857&t=h&z=14

jrsample, if you know this for a fact, I'm not sure why you're asking us to find proof if you already have it. You're the one who characterized the purchase that way and then wouldn't back it up except to allude to some inside knowledge. It's totally beside the point in any case, and as a couple of people have said, not unusual or really an issue anyway. You're coloring your comments to suggest it's a bad thing and in fact, that argument would support Skydive City and Deland more than it'd support what Billy's doing in that area - stopping competitors when there are viable alternatives.

Personally I hope that the two DZ don't go ahead and, if they're not economically viable, I'd expect that Billy/Joe won't proceed because I hope this is about money. Yes, I know I'm being naive and overly optimistic, no need to state the obvious. Tongue


jrsample  (D License)

Apr 1, 2011, 7:24 AM
Post #259 of 277 (1696 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In terms of the other airport FFX owns, you both may be correct.
Do we know it's FFX that owns the airport because as far as I know, FFX doesn't own the Ranch or Kobelt.

For the record, Kobelt basically faces north-south and our prevailing winds are generally east-west so that may have presented a problem but also makes for a great alternate landing area. http://maps.google.com/...857&t=h&z=14

jrsample, if you know this for a fact, I'm not sure why you're asking us to find proof if you already have it. You're the one who characterized the purchase that way and then wouldn't back it up except to allude to some inside knowledge. It's totally beside the point in any case, and as a couple of people have said, not unusual or really an issue anyway. You're coloring your comments to suggest it's a bad thing and in fact, that argument would support Skydive City and Deland more than it'd support what Billy's doing in that area - stopping competitors when there are viable alternatives.

Personally I hope that the two DZ don't go ahead and, if they're not economically viable, I'd expect that Billy/Joe won't proceed because I hope this is about money. Yes, I know I'm being naive and overly optimistic, no need to state the obvious. Tongue

This is not about whether FFX owns Kobelt. It's about the fact that FFX can and did protect themselves from encroachment by competitors whereas Skydive Deland and Skydive City cannot. FFX is the wolf at the door. FFX is not there asking to play. They are there to disrupt both communities where existing markets are satisfied and happy. Both cities are happy with the drop zones and the patrons of both are happy with their DZ.

Leading up to 1990 the City of Z-Hills was pretty fed up with George Kabeller. There were enough customers fed up too. FFX and friends went in and started another DZ under the auspices of the city and after huge hassles and many unsafe incidents Skydive City prevailed. There is no such need at Z-Hills now. FFX is going in as a spoiler. It's going to cost them far more than developing a new market but Billy doesn't care. It's about being a vindictive megalomaniac.

JR


Ron

Apr 1, 2011, 8:14 AM
Post #260 of 277 (1663 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
FFX and friends went in and started another DZ under the auspices of the city and after huge hassles and many unsafe incidents Skydive City prevailed. There is no such need at Z-Hills now.

Fact is that FFE did once already EXACTLY what they are trying to do now.

Make no mistake, I think it is a vindictive move now.... But it was no nicer back then.


jrsample  (D License)

Apr 1, 2011, 8:44 AM
Post #261 of 277 (1646 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
FFX and friends went in and started another DZ under the auspices of the city and after huge hassles and many unsafe incidents Skydive City prevailed. There is no such need at Z-Hills now.

Fact is that FFE did once already EXACTLY what they are trying to do now.

Make no mistake, I think it is a vindictive move now.... But it was no nicer back then.

I should have added that there is no need or desire for a new DZ in either of the two cities where FFX is mounting their current efforts. The comparison to 1990 and SDC opening to the present onslaught was the desire of the city of Z-Hills to have a more friendly DZO than Kabeller. Both Skydive City and Skydive Deland enjoy very high levels of approval in their towns. Neither city is looking for a new DZO as was the case in 1990 Z-Hills. The only motivation now is Billy's ego and the only product of either new DZ would be unsafe skies, bitterness, aggravation, legal battles, etc.

JR


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 1, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #262 of 277 (1634 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

This is from Zhill but it mentions Deland also: http://www2.tbo.com/...enture-p/news-money/


jumpwally  (D License)

Apr 1, 2011, 9:48 AM
Post #263 of 277 (1608 views)
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Re: [jrsample] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone know if kabeller is still in skydiving ?


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Apr 2, 2011, 2:51 PM
Post #264 of 277 (1489 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

no, Kabeller is in Brooksville FL somewhere,

Betty is remotely involved in Lake Wales as the FBO, but not really involved in the skydiving anymore,


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Apr 14, 2011, 6:05 AM
Post #265 of 277 (1319 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.news-journalonline.com/...-diving-company.html

Basically a third party consultant recommends Deland reject the application for a second skydiving company.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 14, 2011, 6:44 AM
Post #266 of 277 (1290 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

The whining begins...now they'll have to try for a DZ at city hall, the Sheriff's helicopter hangar, and the flight school.
Tongue


jumpwally  (D License)

Apr 15, 2011, 9:24 AM
Post #267 of 277 (1171 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone know why the DZ at Flagler closed ? That seems like the ideal location for a DZ and Tandem factory....


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 16, 2011, 5:06 PM
Post #268 of 277 (1002 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

update coming soon I bet.....


jrsample  (D License)

May 16, 2011, 6:54 PM
Post #269 of 277 (937 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Tap out Billy. Just tap out.

JR




Premier skymama  (D 26699)
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May 17, 2011, 5:08 AM
Post #271 of 277 (839 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

I read on someone's FB post that having 2 skydiving operations in Deland was voted down last night. Yay! Cool


freefalle  (D 27777)

May 17, 2011, 5:33 AM
Post #272 of 277 (822 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyone know why the DZ at Flagler closed ? That seems like the ideal location for a DZ and Tandem factory....

Flagler closed years ago when Rock Evans and his wife divorced. From what I understand there were other factors involved in it's closing which I am not going to speculate about but according to rock and his ex-wife the dz closed when they split up.

About a year ago a friend of mine and I had conversation with the airport manager about having a DZ back at flagler ( we werent considering opening one we just happened to meet the guy are were talking) his thought was that the airport had way to much traffic to support a DZ they have a few flight schools there now and several businesses hanger jets there.

I don't know if he would still have that same thought or if they would be open to it now as I believe some of the flight schools have closed and some of the major companies no longer hanger there....

I'm having lunch with Rocky Evans next week to talk about another small dz he is working on opening... could be interesting


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

May 17, 2011, 6:03 AM
Post #273 of 277 (805 views)
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Re: [freefalle] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Anyone know why the DZ at Flagler closed ? That seems like the ideal location for a DZ and Tandem factory....

Flagler closed years ago when Rock Evans and his wife divorced. From what I understand there were other factors involved in it's closing which I am not going to speculate about but according to rock and his ex-wife the dz closed when they split up.

About a year ago a friend of mine and I had conversation with the airport manager about having a DZ back at flagler ( we werent considering opening one we just happened to meet the guy are were talking) his thought was that the airport had way to much traffic to support a DZ they have a few flight schools there now and several businesses hanger jets there.

I don't know if he would still have that same thought or if they would be open to it now as I believe some of the flight schools have closed and some of the major companies no longer hanger there....

I'm having lunch with Rocky Evans next week to talk about another small dz he is working on opening... could be interesting


You hear that alot.


3331  (D 3331)

May 17, 2011, 6:52 AM
Post #274 of 277 (772 views)
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Re: [all] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.wesh.com/...27920293/detail.html

Cool


stratostar  (Student)

May 17, 2011, 11:03 AM
Post #275 of 277 (713 views)
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Re: [3331] "Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence " [In reply to] Can't Post

Well let's wait and see what the FAA safety study will say, cuz the consultant's report and vote of the CC don't mean shit, if anything, for now it helps the other side get their part 13 opened. Even if it's all total BS as to why BR is filing a part 13, the feds are required to review it once it's submitted to them, and then they can decide to act or not on it.

My guess is that under current guidance for federal funded airports they will open it, if it's filed and then conduct a safety study.

http://www.faa.gov/...190-7/150_5190_7.pdf

page # 10

Quote:
f.Skydiving.

Skydiving is an aeronautical activity. Any restriction, limitation, or ban on skydiving on the airport must be based on the grant assurance that provides that the airport sponsor may prohibit or limit aeronautical use for the safe operation of the airport (subject to FAA approval). The following questions present reasonable factors the sponsor might contemplate when developing minimum standards that apply to skydiving:
(1)
Will this activity present or create a safety hazard to the normal operations of aircraft arriving or departing from the airport? If so, has the local Airports District Office (ADO) or the Regional Airports Office been contacted and have those FAA offices sought the assistance from FAA Flight Standards (FS) and Air Traffic (AT) to assess whether safe airport operations would be jeopardized?
(2)
Can skydiving operations be safely accommodated at the airport? Can a drop zone be safely established within the boundaries of the airport? Is guidance in FAA AC-90-66A
Recommended Standards Traffic Patterns and Practices for Aeronautical Operations at Airports Without Operating Control Towers, 14 CFR Part 105 and United States Parachute Associationĺs (USPA) Basic Safety Requirements being followed?
(3)
What reasonable time periods can be designated for jumping in a manner consistent with Part 105? What experience requirements are needed for an on-airport drop zone?
(4)
What is a reasonable fee that the jumpers and/or their organizations can pay for the privilege of using airport property?
(5)
Has the relevant air traffic control facility been advised of the proposed parachute operation? Does the air traffic control facility have concerns about the efficiency and utility of the airport and its related instrument procedures?
(6)
Will it be necessary to determine the impact of the proposed activity on the efficiency and utility of the airport, related instrument approaches or nearby Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)? If so, has FAA Air Traffic reviewed the matter and issued a finding?


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