Nov 19, 2010, 1:11 PM
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Re: [steveorino] Small but effective trick
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I think Spot pointed out that the strips helped. I'd think he used them as an external clue to breathe just as I do with my of my students when I look at them and take a deep breath with a motion from my hand that looks like a yoga move. All of these are simply reminders. Good instructors use these all the time.
See my previous post for the reply to that.
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Others would rather read one paragraph and make a bold statement such as "The guy was clearly not ready to fly a wing-suit". Spot, who has had plenty of experience teaching Wing-Suiters taught the guy and had first hand info to make his decision with.
The information given to us is that the person held his breath from exit to opening on two consecutive jumps, that would be a reasonable assumption.
Watching the video, it is quite apparent that this is not the case, yes he is stiff, yes he may have held his breath immediately before opening (VERY COMMON), but the whole time.... Hogwash!
He would have been close to passing out if he was holding his breath for that long while holding a stiff position. He was not. he would have been red/blue in the face, he was not.
You try, 90 second while holding your arms and legs in a stiff position....dreaming!
It is the information we are given that we have to work with, incorrect information gives incorrect results.
(This post was edited by rhys on Nov 19, 2010, 1:12 PM)
Nov 19, 2010, 1:20 PM
Post #152 of 177
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Re: [gzimmermann] Small but effective trick
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I am not an instructor but the "subject", student here.
Thanks for chiming in.
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He sensed quickly that more relaxing and breathing was definitely an obstacle against my progress and acted. Both in applying simple psychological means like making me relax on the ground in defined body positions and also with the "breathing pill, strip". We both knew it was a trick and we both liked the effect.
Tell me, do you honestly feel you did not take a breath from exit to opening on those two consecutive jumps? Not intermitant breathing but holding your breath the whole time?
I am glad you are up there and enjoying it. Good for you.
If you can answer that one question, that would help clarify the situation considerably.
Nov 19, 2010, 1:35 PM
Post #154 of 177
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Re: [rhys] Small but effective trick
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I am stiff by nature , especially when it comes to serious activities. To answer your question: No, I do not think I was holding my breath completely for 90 seconds and yes, I am a smoker (shame on me...) and enjoy the 18K jumps in Hollister very much where you sometimes really want to breathe properly before the exit while seated at the door in the PAC and the oxygen is not so easily available there. I survived them and more even enjoyed them all so far.
More important, and my assumption of WHY Spot even started this thread: Technical skills are one important aspect of instructing, psychological, empathy aspects might be another important one too...
Nov 19, 2010, 2:08 PM
Post #156 of 177
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Re: [rhys] Small but effective trick
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I desire to express my apology for some comments I made. I ended up doing what I despise about dropzone sometime. Too many bickering, one-liners, and insults. And I participated in them.
Sorry
Bottom line, I think Spot had a good solution to remind the guy to breathe when they exited (I have some doubts that he never breathed)
If you beg to differ, you have that right. Again, I'm sorry.
Blue ones!
(This post was edited by steveorino on Nov 19, 2010, 2:08 PM)
Nov 19, 2010, 2:11 PM
Post #157 of 177
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Re: [gzimmermann] Small but effective trick
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I think another part of the "problem" with this thread - or perhaps better stated: part of the reason it went on a tangent (at least with/to me personally), is that it was also presented in such a fashion, that it could have been interpreted that you were actually fooled, at least initially, with that 1st strip being (quickly? just before exit? - and "coming from the pilot") handed to you.
That is how I took it (literally, I suppose) - right or wrong, ...but just FWIW. I have actually seen this (happen) before. A student taking something presented to him literally, in a "high stress" situation - from his "figure of authority" (his instructor) and not really thinking about it or fully considering it, until only later/after. Thus (at least from me) - my (much earlier in this thread) questioning.
It was also reported that you stated you had formed a habit of holding your breath for entire previous FF/FS jumps. Is that/was that so? Have you gotten to the root of that, and overcome this habit as well?
I think it is admirable, your dedicated focus on your goals - and I congratulate you, for "getting it done"!
Nov 19, 2010, 2:14 PM
Post #158 of 177
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Re: [steveorino] Small but effective trick
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I desire to express my apology for some comments I made. I ended up doing what I despise about dropzone sometime. Too many bickering, one-liners, and insults. And I participated in them.
Sorry
Appology accepted, I too am sucked in to these type of things.
In reply to:
Bottom line, I think Spot had a good solution to remind the guy to breathe when they exited (I have some doubts that he never breathed)
If you beg to differ, you have that right. Again, I'm sorry.
Nov 19, 2010, 2:28 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Small but effective trick
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No, I never felt being fooled with the stick/pill and indeed it was a spontaneous action from Spot just before we exited the plane on my 3rd jump. I still have that picture in mind: Him sitting on the right side of the pilot handing me over the "medicine". On your other remark: As I said - and in full awareness of my own behavior and capabilities hopefully - I am not the young, gifted, relaxed guy who does this just like anything. But: I do not believe that I present a danger to others or myself by not just performing "relaxed and easy going". I would not do skydiving and certainly wingsuit jumps if I did not feel comfortable over all, very personally. Up to others to judge too and I am open to feedback on ANY jump I do with others ANYTIME.
Once again: Spot has done a great job in teaching me, adopting to my tension, non-breathing, non-relaxing, you name it... He really deserves credit for it and for INVENTING THE BREATHING PILL/STRIP.
Nov 19, 2010, 5:02 PM
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Re: [gzimmermann] Small but effective trick
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I am not the young, gifted, relaxed guy who does this just like anything. But: I do not believe that I present a danger to others or myself by not just performing "relaxed and easy going".
Think about this for a minute, you admit that you are not the natural type and you have just over 200 jumps.
Read the reply DSE made to this coment in another thread earlier;
Quote:
In reply to:
Also, please read the SIM carefully - the minimum jump number is actually 500, with a caveat that if you have 200 jumps in the past 18 months COMBINED with one-on-one instruction from an experienced wingsuit pilot, then you meet the USPA minimum recommended required experience level to attempt a wingsuit jump.
(DSE's reply); Fixed it fer ya. And at 500 jumps with an instructor, some aren't ready/able to manage a wingsuit.
You admit you are not a natural, and you are tense, but you defend him taking you on these jumps when you only just have the recommended experience level for such a jump, in the best possible scenario (a natural, fast learning and comfortable student).
I can see (if your profile is correct) that you have done your 200+ jumps within 2 years, if you are that current and still having trouble relaxing then maybe you need to slow down a bit with your progression.
I know you very much want to achieve your goals, but rushing it does not make the result any more satisfying.
Personally I am dubious of the ethics of these lessons you have been getting. But once again I do not have enough information to make that decision conclusively.
(This post was edited by rhys on Nov 19, 2010, 5:06 PM)
Nov 19, 2010, 11:55 PM
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Re: [gzimmermann] Small but effective trick
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You were clearly smilling when spot took the dock with you, i would say thats pretty relaxed for a first flight, and not a reason to halt progression in a suit, you had a stable exit, alti awerness, i presume you pulled at the correct height after waving (kicking) off. I don't get the issue.. i really don't.
Rhys I don't believe that you have never had a tandem student who said to you they could not breath in freefall.. I must have had 5 or 6 in the last 200 jumps.
I like the fact that different instructional aids are on this site, I like that people are thinking out of the box, and not still all in the mind set of if they don't do it right; shout at them, belittle them, make them feel they don't belong in the sky.
I'm the worst for speaking my mind on these forums, i also don't react well to snide remarks or comments which i may misread or misunderstand.... However it would be great if being shitty to one another could be left off the instructors forums so we can still take ideas and experiance from around the globe.
I was going to post a vid of me being put into a side spin by a 2nd time tandem girl, 110lbs, with a history of giving the previous TI a hard time, but it makes you think what is the point when people can only take negatives out of any given situation, rather then looking at things / ideas anylising and possibly putting it into their instructors tool box. As a post note if you are a TI and would like to see how i got out of the situation PM me and i'll give you a link.
N.b I was breathing throughout the expeiance, and had a smile on my face. Its all about relaxation
Nov 20, 2010, 1:37 AM
Post #162 of 177
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Re: [crashtested] Small but effective trick
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Rhys I don't believe that you have never had a tandem student who said to you they could not breath in freefall.. I must have had 5 or 6 in the last 200 jumps.
Be clear that someone saying they could not breath in freefall is quite different to someone taking a breath before exit and not exhaling until that parachute opens.
This may have happened a few times in history, but not very often and never to me. They will feel like they could not breath, say they could not breath, but be assured they were breathing.
Plenty of people say thay cannot breath in freefall, that happens all the time, it is not that they cannot breath, there is no problem breathing in freefall, but the problem is them not being relaxed and tensing their muscles, they are holding thier breath. It is anxiety that does this.
This stuff seems very basic to me, but it also seems to me that many here have trouble comprehending this.
We have ascertianed that he was not holding his breath for the whole time, He even told us he was not. He has got through the difficult stage and will be fine now most likely.
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I like the fact that different instructional aids are on this site, I like that people are thinking out of the box, and not still all in the mind set of if they don't do it right; shout at them, belittle them, make them feel they don't belong in the sky.
There is a distinct difference between taking it back a notch to become more comfortable in your progression and not jumping at all.
Nobody ever yelled at him or said they should not be in the sky.
Some people here are having real comprehention issues.
Nov 20, 2010, 7:56 AM
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Re: [rhys] Small but effective trick
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If you think about it, I'd consider a "hand signal" to fall into the category of a 'placebo' frankly. While physically moving a leg or arm is direct, a hand signal doesn't actually move a student, they still have to be aware, recognize the input, and then THEY respond.
No they are an instruction, they are a physical reminder made from the instructor to the student at the time when they are doing the said activity.
I am not out to argue, .
I hate semantics games, it's a worse signal than Godwin.
Reminding someone to breath (via a signal, or fresh minty experience) is also instruction. You can call it whatever you like. But it's not a direct and physical intervention.
Have you ever had a student not respond to a hand signal (in air instruction)? If so, I guess hand signals are pointless too and you should stop those also. We even have a "relax" hand signal - how parallel to you think the applicability needs to be before it's acknowledged?
My point, whatever works, is what works. You work to find that technique and not be stuck in the SOP if the SOP is NOT working.
Nov 20, 2010, 12:35 PM
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Re: [rhys] Small but effective trick
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The part you highlighted was an example Rhys, thats all.
I think your looking at any comments as if its a personal attack, its not.
You disagree with using training aids, thats all the gum was IMO, this attitude is stuck in the 90's, training people has progressed way beyond what you seem to grasp.
That in itself is probablly because you have never been taught how to teach...
This is a really good course maybe you could consider, you may learn something.??
Nov 20, 2010, 12:43 PM
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taught how to teach... I use to enjoy watching couple of guys I really respected as instructors 'AFFI' & 'Dennis Anderson' work what was to me 'magic' with problem students.
Their method and approach made me realize that as a (one time) Instructor, I didn't know a problem student with potential- - - from a hole in the ground!
I for one, could have benefited from some instruction on instruction.
DSE (D 29060)
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Nov 20, 2010, 1:05 PM
Post #167 of 177
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Re: [airtwardo] Small but effective trick
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Learning to teach is a big part of the IERC program (shuffled over from Skydive U and significantly remodeled by USPA). All coach and instructor rating holders are required to participate in the IERC now.
Teach enough FJC's and FFC's and you begin to understand that some individuals need a different method or management. Some instructors don't vary their message, and valuable information gets lost in the mostly one-way dialog. It's also why the PFC course works the way it does. There is tremendous value gained during instruction on instruction. Sit through as many FJC's from very experienced instructors as you can; what you'll take away is golden.
Nov 20, 2010, 1:19 PM
Post #168 of 177
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Re: [crashtested] Small but effective trick
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You disagree with using training aids, thats all the gum was IMO, this attitude is stuck in the 90's, training people has progressed way beyond what you seem to grasp.
Once again you are showing you inability to comprehend what I am saying.
It has been proven boyond reasonable doubt that DSE gave us false information to work with.
He said the student held his breath from exit to opening, on two consecutive jumps. The student chimed in as informd us that this was not the case.
That is my point.
Maybe you need to be addressin DSE's teaching or diagnosis techniques?
First one must determine the problem correctly, then that may fix it.
If in fact the student 'was' holding thier breath for the whloe jump, then the method for correcting them would likely be somewhat different than correcting what actually happened.
He held his breath before opening, quite different to what the facts are.
Go back and read the thread, I have pointed this out a number of times now. If we had been given the correct details to begin with, this converstaion would not have evolved the way it has.
Nov 20, 2010, 2:12 PM
Post #169 of 177
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Re: [rhys] Small but effective trick
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Once again you are showing you inability to comprehend what I am saying.
I think its your accent!!
Quote:
DSE gave us false information
I have never met DSE, but i like the fact he's willing to offer positive instructional tequiniques which may or may not have been thought of or used, him describing in 8 lines his 3 instructional wingsuit jumps and debriefs is clearly not going to give us a clear picture of what went on during the skydive's.
I understand that you wanted more detail, but becoming monomaniac over his statment about breathing seems rather pointless, and detracts from an instructor who has helped a student relax in freefall and fufill his catapedamania, a win in my book,
Maybe you could just say well done i like the thinking outside the box, or give me a reason why you would not have let the student jump a 2nd time in that wingsuit from watching his flight on the video?? in hinesight possibly!! now we have more facts??
Nov 20, 2010, 2:47 PM
Post #170 of 177
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I have never met DSE, but i like the fact he's willing to offer positive instructional tequiniques which may or may not have been thought of or used, him describing in 8 lines his 3 instructional wingsuit jumps and debriefs is clearly not going to give us a clear picture of what went on during the skydive's.
haha, he said he took in a deep breath before exit and did not exhale until opening...
...false statement.
That is the root of this subject.
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I have never met DSE, but i like the fact he's willing to offer positive instructional tequiniques which may or may not have been thought of or used, him describing in 8 lines his 3 instructional wingsuit jumps and debriefs is clearly not going to give us a clear picture of what went on during the skydive's.
I understand that you wanted more detail, but becoming monomaniac over his statment about breathing seems rather pointless, and detracts from an instructor who has helped a student relax in freefall and fufill his catapedamania, a win in my book,
Hey, you can applaud him all you like, your perogative, but the fact of the matter is that he either mislead us at the beginning of the topic, or mis-diagnosed the situation (my concern). Simple
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Maybe you could just say well done i like the thinking outside the box, or give me a reason why you would not have let the student jump a 2nd time in that wingsuit from watching his flight on the video?? in hinesight possibly!! now we have more facts??
After watching the video, I realised he was in fact breathing, and that it was simple a mistake in the initial reporting he gave us. I have said this many times now. When the student chimed in I asked him if he thought held his breath the whole time, he said no.
Point confirmed. What is so difficult to understand about that?
There was no hindsight, I spotted this mistake a mile away and that is why I have taken the time to prove my point.
This is become a real bore, though it is interesting how defensive people can be for those that they admire.
Quite sad really when all the facts are out in the open and they speak for themselves.
We all make mistakes, it just seems some are not willing to admit it.
(This post was edited by rhys on Nov 20, 2010, 2:49 PM)
Nov 22, 2010, 8:09 AM
Post #174 of 177
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Re: [gzimmermann] Small but effective trick
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No, I do not think I was holding my breath completely for 90 seconds
That is a different issue than we were originally told, "He sucked in a breath on exit and didn't exhale until he deployed".
If the original post had identified you just holding your breath for the pull.... That would be normal and kinda expected.
Quote:
More important, and my assumption of WHY Spot even started this thread: Technical skills are one important aspect of instructing, psychological, empathy aspects might be another important one too...
Yes, but not all of us agree on what "psychological, empathy" entails and more importantly how to fix it.
* One camp wants to reduce stress and work on eliminating the underlying obstacles.
* The other wants to use additional aids to overcome the obstacles.
Both can have their place. In the original explanation (He sucked in a breath on exit and didn't exhale until he deployed)... Seemed, to me, to indicate a bigger underlying problem.
Wow...if anyone here thought Spot had the ability to be 100% sure the student never took a breath the entire skydive; as opposed to his belief the student never took a breath; well I can only shake my head.
Regardless, I too was a VERY tense and unrelaxed W/S student that Spot had to deal with. Though I did not have 500 jumps total I did have 448 in the last 29 months; technically he should have not let me jump a W/S since I am clearly not a "natural" at skydiving.
Oddly enough my first flight went much better than my instructor thought it would go....even though I was "tense"
My point is, Spot is a good instructor, his mellow attitude and attention to detail are what I like about him most. But he is so approachable and easy to talk to it bothers me to see this BS go on here.
Personally, I will be down at Elsinore on Weds doing some more W/S jumps with a suit that Spot will let me demo at no cost...what an evil ego-maniac
EDIT: while I did not need the magic strips I did get some mental tricks to help me breath and relax during the flight. Like it or not, Spot is starting a W/S frenzy at my dz, and I am one of the latest casualties.
(This post was edited by humbled1 on Nov 23, 2010, 12:36 AM)
That website was quite humorous to view, but I imagine it is not intended to be so? 
, especially when it comes to serious activities. 
personally), is that it was also presented in such a fashion, that it could have been interpreted that you were actually fooled, at least initially, with that 1st strip being (quickly? just before exit? - and "coming from the pilot") handed to you. 
Breathing Strip.gif
