Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too

 


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Oct 31, 2010, 8:48 PM
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First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too Can't Post

So, trying to get my canopy skills (landing accuracy) figured out has been my goal lately, for my final A card sign-off. Went to do hop n pops today and went from the 240 main to the 190. Second jump of the day (1st on the 190 transition/sport main), and I had my first cutaway (and my best landing, and my A license signed off- woohoo!)

The skydive was a little screwy from the start.. I was first out and only hop n pop on load, and I had the "go" idiots hollering a bit and freaking me out in the door.. that said I realize I need to get over it and not let other people's comments or issues mess with my focus on a jump.

But I did let it get to me, rushed out, and I immediately tumbled the exit. I did get onto belly fairly immediately to pull, but it was not the most ideal deployment position which could surely have contributed.

Opened into a brisk spin to the right, and immediately checked the brakes/toggles- sure enough, they were either stowed really funky/unequally, or there had been a brake fire. The left one was also wrapped around itself a bit, but not to the point I couldn't get it fixed- not knotted or anything, at least where I could see and access it.

I got the toggle situation figured out, but the canopy was still pitching a little bit and not responding, and upon another visual inspection I realized that there was something off/twisty with a line over another line on the left side- not wrapped around the whole canopy like around top to bottom and back, but caught up on some of the fabric somehow.

I did do a quick pull to try to pressurize it (also had a closed end cell or two, though looking back it could have just looked that way because it was part of the weird entanglement/possible brake line over, from what others have deduced. There was clearly no response attempting to pressurize the canopy and inflate all the cells that way) but yeah, it was not responding in any sort of a normal way, and with the slight spin still going on, though much less rapid after I fixed the brake fire, was definitely not at all land-able, so I wasn't going to waste any more time.

I had looked at alti when I first opened into the start of the spin, the point where when I noticed a not quite square or stable/canopy, and was around 3500 (exit a bit over 4k), so I guess by the time I fixed the brake issue, analyzed the lines/canopy, and took a couple seconds to mentally prepare myself for a cutaway and double check my handle locations, I was at 3k ft exactly when I decided/started to initiate EPs.

Honestly all I have to say is that you can never touch and look at those three handles enough times- it may save your life. I am eternally grateful I was trained in the habit of touching my handles in the order of use multiple times pre-boarding and on plane, and to visually locate where and how they shift.

Also, it was not how I expected my first cutaway to be. I don't know how to explain it, it just felt different. I guess I worried I would screw something up, but more than that, it was just easier in a way- the pull force needed was not as much as I expected, it went smoothly, and there was a canopy over my head. The rsl coulda beat me though; I didn't really think about it..

But for all the newer jumpers like me, just know that practicing and discussing EPs will make life a hell of a lot easier and less scary one day (it was still a bit scary though haha! more of in shock for a bit I guess, a "holy shit" moment.. you know you are probably safe, but that moment you have to choose the course of action is INTENSE) Just know that it is totally do-able.

I actually found it hilarious that my final landing goal and A card accomplishment was completed on my first reserve ride. It's actually really comforting to know how well the system works (gear and training program), that one has the presence of mind to deal with it appropriately when it does happen. I owe a lotta beer from this weekend I know lol.. Thanks to the amazing staff at SK for supporting me when the going got tough and for continuing to work with me.

Anyway, mostly just sharing my story with newer/student jumpers and well as the experienced folk (ok, and bragging a little that I FINALLY managed my license after 30 jumps! and managed to successfully live another day!) but would be more than happy to hear others' thoughts on their first cutaways, or any analysis of things I may not yet have talked or thought about in the cutaway situation.. thanks!!

------ oh, and..
I do honestly wonder with the line over (they believe it was a steering line, since the initial issues and spin were linked to the brakes, at least that was the impression I got) --I wonder though if it was mainly body position (obviously couldn't impact the toggles being stowed or a brake fire, but the line over, if that is what the mal was, which seems likely) or if that's irrelevant.

i.e. if I had the presence of mind to address the brake fire and hang up, & to stop the spiral, which I did, with plenty of altitude left, would it likely have been fine then? I do realize that we will never know for sure, and I certainly don't need Monday morning QBing brought down upon myself, but I am just curious about that particular situation..

I had just flipped to my belly from tuble/back to side to belly, so while I *was* in the *basic* appropriate position with arms up in an arch and belly to earth, I did not yet have that stable "riding the air cushion" effect and was rocking a bit (and still on the hill, which didn't help). idk,

blue ones, peace out~
R


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Oct 31, 2010, 11:02 PM)


Psychonaut  (C License)

Oct 31, 2010, 10:48 PM
Post #2 of 76 (2764 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway jump 30, and perseverance in the sport (long post haha) [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh my god please tl;dr Crazy


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Oct 31, 2010, 11:00 PM
Post #3 of 76 (2757 views)
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Re: [Psychonaut] First Cutaway jump 30, and perseverance in the sport (long post haha) [In reply to] Can't Post

haha i don't know what that means but i think we crossed posts. i am a writer. i have to write long stream of consciousness shit and edit it down. i do what works for me. can you handle the above version? cause that's about all you're gonna be able to get outta me right now.

maybe a "glad you aren't dead" would be in order instead of a sad mean little squiggle face Crazy

TongueTongue


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Oct 31, 2010, 11:26 PM
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Summary:

-Jump #30, hop & pop from ~4,500'
-Possible line-over or caught-up brake line on canopy
-EP's to cutaway with RSL at ~3,000'
-no injury
-got 'A' license

---

Glad your not dead, and congrats on your 'A'! Wink


trig78  (B License)

Oct 31, 2010, 11:26 PM
Post #5 of 76 (2742 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't actually read it all the way to the end but Congrats on a good save Cool You're alive and well and that's what counts Wink Blue skies


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 1, 2010, 5:06 AM
Post #6 of 76 (2691 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't quite make it through either, but noticed something important. On your new rig, the reserve ripcord WILL come all the way out. It is not meant to prevent you from losing it. Make sure to always clear your cables and feel free to throw your handles.

Nice job.

Dave


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 1, 2010, 7:58 AM
Post #7 of 76 (2598 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone ever hear of a reserve ripcord causing damage upon landing?

I've seen/heard a cutaway handle (pillow) land on the top of a hangar and it left a surprising dent.
Shocked

Good job on saving your own life Flower.

PS: I couldn't make it through the whole write up either.
Angelic


(This post was edited by normiss on Nov 1, 2010, 7:58 AM)


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:27 AM
Post #8 of 76 (2577 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't let them dog you on this one, Robyn. Coming from you, it's a pretty concise telling. Wink

Congrats on dealing with what you had. And on earning the A license.

As far as rushing exits and not being in a good exit position - don't you remember what happens? Tongue Angelic


doughboyshred  (Student)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:31 AM
Post #9 of 76 (2574 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

congrats on the A, and on staying calm and following your eps.


pkasdorf  (D 40)

Nov 1, 2010, 9:58 AM
Post #10 of 76 (2522 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

"...Honestly all I have to say is that you can never touch and look at those three handles enough times- it may save your life. I am eternally grateful I was trained in the habit of touching my handles in the order of use multiple times pre-boarding and on plane, and to visually locate where and how they shift... "

How true! Congrats...


fcajump  (D 15598)

Nov 1, 2010, 10:14 AM
Post #11 of 76 (2505 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

CONGRATS!!!Cool

Don't let these verbose-challenged folks diminish your sense of accomplishment!!! My first reserve ride was at jump 23 and I likely wrote a book about it at the time. Had a similar issue to yours a couple years ago and wrote quite a bit less. Brevity will come later.

Don't let anyone rush your exit, but you already figured that one out.

Don't spend to much time sorting (mid-air-rigging), but sounds like to didn't.

YES YOU CAN!!! Cool

BTW - that reserve ride of my at #23... without hesitation in my actions, it struck me that my reaction was disbelief that I was actually having to do this, NOT a question of what to do... so I completely understand.

JW

PS - to newer jumpers, when your reserve is due for repack, ask your rigger to let you pull the ripcord. Also look at your reserve setup while he has it open... Little things can be weird distractions... For me it was the red steering toggles (rather than yellow)... Caught myself looking at them and not being sure what they were at first Blush.


ksudiver87  (C 38895)

Nov 1, 2010, 10:33 AM
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Re: [fcajump] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure if you jump at a large DZ or a small 182 DZ..but if the place allows, try asking for a go- around when people start to Bitch :) Be the Ass Hole all skydivers try to be. Congrats on the save and ACool


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 1, 2010, 10:56 AM
Post #13 of 76 (2463 views)
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Re: [ksudiver87] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks guys (Nova Tongue)!! Yeah that was actually a short one for me!

Thanks for the feedback and congrats. It's good to have it over and done for the first time.

I did think about that- that the falling handle could be damaging at that speed from that height, as mentioned, but at least I knew I was the only hop n pop and pretty much right over the dz (at least that's where the main landed-- I wasn't as aware of my location as I should be when I realized I had a potential cutaway on my hands Blush) Even a soft reserve pud caused issues, huh?

Yeah I can totally relate to what you were saying, fcajump- it's almost shock/disbelief, like, you've gone over it so many times verbally, and done the motions without *actually* pulling them, that you're like, wait, I am actually needing to do this now? lol

Ksudiver87, ROFL TongueCool
It is a PAC dz, though they have a cessna running instead from-mid November to late March. I would absolutely love to ask for a go-around, in the PAC, as the only hop n pop on the (very full) load.. awesomeness. I may have to do that someday just for the hell of it! I think they'd have thrown me out though Tongue But I guess I'll be optimistic and just assume that they didn't want me to get a long spot (yeah yeah kinda hard to do on a hop n pop at 4k, with winds at less than 5... but let's just pretend)

Thanks guys!! Blue ones,
R


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 1, 2010, 3:08 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 1, 2010, 10:59 AM
Post #14 of 76 (2460 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

So.....Sky Knights SPC has a bunch of "Go Idiots"....good to know.

Especially good to know that it was directed at a youngster.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 1, 2010, 11:12 AM
Post #15 of 76 (2450 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

FWIW, I've jumped a few times at SkyKnights and haven't yet experienced the "Go" idiots.
Overall a very nice DZ, one that is well worth the travel to get to.

Congrats to the OP for a successful emergency procedure. My first cutaway inspired a novel too.


(This post was edited by DSE on Nov 1, 2010, 11:33 AM)


ManagingPrime

Nov 1, 2010, 11:24 AM
Post #16 of 76 (2439 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats on the A! Wink

Glad you are still here with us too!SmileSmileSmile

Question:

240 student canopy to 190 sport transition at 30 jumps?!Unsure

I went from a 220 to a 190 (just started jumping it) and it's a pretty serious transition.

Spelling.


(This post was edited by ManagingPrime on Nov 1, 2010, 11:37 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 1, 2010, 11:32 AM
Post #17 of 76 (2428 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Good job overall.

>I do honestly wonder with the line over (they believe it was a steering line,
>since the initial issues and spin were linked to the brakes, at least that was
>the impression I got) --I wonder though if it was mainly body position

It might have contributed, but bad body position will by no means ensure a problem. I've seen horrendous body positions on SL and AFF students, and they get reasonable openings 99% of the time.

>if I had the presence of mind to address the brake fire and hang up, & to
>stop the spiral, which I did, with plenty of altitude left, would it likely have
>been fine then?

Maybe, maybe not.

If it was a "partial" lineover (i.e. brake line wrapped around just the outboard rear part of the canopy) they sometimes clear on their own or with a little pumping.

If it was a tension knot sometimes they respond to 'snapping' i.e. flaring and then releasing very, very quickly to unload the line. I've done this by flaring and then just releasing the toggle; that unloaded it enough.


Blamey  (A 56669)

Nov 1, 2010, 12:47 PM
Post #18 of 76 (2405 views)
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Re: [ManagingPrime] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

If her profile is correct 'Sabre2 190 ft (0.82 lbs/ft)" then her wing loading is pretty low and she is probably at an appropriate size canopy but I'd agree that is a big change when including the fact that the canopy type changed too.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 1, 2010, 12:56 PM
Post #19 of 76 (2396 views)
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Re: [ksudiver87] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

There's nothing wrong with with holding your exit if you have a legitimate concern or see something you don't like.... but if your holding everyone up just cause your timid, then people have the right to tell you to "GO" or get out of the way.


skycamefalling  (A 58345)

Nov 1, 2010, 1:25 PM
Post #20 of 76 (2367 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone owes someone a bottle of their choiceCool. Congrats on the first cut away and on getting your A.

Blue skies


(This post was edited by skycamefalling on Nov 1, 2010, 1:27 PM)


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 1, 2010, 2:44 PM
Post #21 of 76 (2322 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So.....Sky Knights SPC has a bunch of "Go Idiots"....good to know.

Especially good to know that it was directed at a youngster.

Well, I will say that overall the amazing people FAR outweigh the idiots- but it is still not okay! I will say I switched dzs at 5 jumps and am more than happy to drive the extra thirty miles to get there.. it's worth it!

I have had two "go" experiences in the door in 30 jumps- and I agree with the poster who says there is no reason to hesitate too long in the door.. but, at risk of flaming for sharing an opinion like this at my experience level, I do think it is highly inappropriate for a jumper on student status especially, and who has experienced an injury on exit in the past, for anyone to add pressure in the door unless it is a life or death situation like pilot calling to get out NOW.

I was not just sitting on my ass either, I opened the door, looked out, and literally within 1-2 seconds, almost simultaneously, the light went yellow to green, and the shout of "go" came forth as I was crouching to exit poised (yellow had been on till then and I was looking for the airport).

But really I need to realize that people are gonna do it on occasion whether I like it or not, and I don't feel I have any authority to bitch them out over it.. it sucks, but I can only control myself, not anyone else. I guess barring a radical cultural shift in the "go go go" mindset that pops up on occasion, I just have to access that inner focus on the skydive, that others should not be able to take away from me.

Still I see it as a chain of events- the nervousness at the go and quick unstable exit could have contributed to the additional issues with the main and thus the cutaway-- but you can't over-analyze that shit to death, and I am not mad at anyone. (And no, I make NO implication that any comment made by anyone was the root cause of the cutaway- just pointing out more rhetorically how seemingly little things all add up to create situations, in any setting really not just jumping!)

Looking back I actually considered closing the door and riding the plane down to make a point LOL, but when you are put on the spot like that, it f'ing sucks. But in their defense, SK-SPC folk are some of the most passionate, helpful, and giving people I have ever met. (That said-- stfu when a student is in the door, ya'll!! Angelic)
-------------
Oh and ridestrong.. I wouldn't say I am timid in the door teehee.. though it is possible that since I am pretty new at spotting I took longer than I thought or the green came on sooner than I noticed the shift, but I don't think so.. but yeah- I can't wait to get the frick out of that plane lol.

My nerves have shifted now from exit fears, to pull/opening fears. But maybe now that I have handled that too, it'll be less nerve-wracking..


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 1, 2010, 3:16 PM)


ManagingPrime

Nov 1, 2010, 3:48 PM
Post #22 of 76 (2286 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So.....Sky Knights SPC has a bunch of "Go Idiots"....good to know.

Especially good to know that it was directed at a youngster.


But really I need to realize that people are gonna do it on occasion whether I like it or not, and I don't feel I have any authority to bitch them out over it..

No authority or bitching about it needed. Do what you need to do to make sure you are safe and throw them the old "duces" if they have a problem with it. It's your safety.

If someone feels in all their experience they don't need to properly check the spot...good for them. As time progresses you will get faster. Keep staying safe.


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 1, 2010, 4:02 PM
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Re: [billvon] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks billvon! Yeah I am not yet well enough educated with the mechanics of the lines and cells and all to say for sure, but we (at the dz) seem to have deduced it was a "lesser" type of line over, what you describe as a partial, with a steering line involved, because it was only a portion of the left of the canopy affected..

You are right though, we'll never really know.. body position is only one factor among many (shit, I deployed in an uncontrolled flail at about 2.5-3k on my second attempt at a L3 release dive Shocked and wound up with only a few line twists!)

I do find it interesting that it was a left side brake fire/toggle fuck-up, and also line-over issues on that left side- wonder if they played into each other (or is that an obvious question, because the tension on the lines would be different/linked during deployment.. duh lol).

It's quite possible if I played around a bit I may have been able to fix it, I guess I'll never know for sure (but, I am happy I chopped it!!) Yeah with a bit more altitude though I possibly could have gotten a bit more aggressive with it.. I think the spin and shaky feeling freaked me out, and I actually do have the opposite problem of many skydivers (I am overly conservative, not the other way around, with inputs.. still not good, but at least I don't think you'll read about me doing a low hook turn in incidents..)

I did make one single attempt to pressurize, but perhaps not as aggressively as I could have. It is possible that could have done it if I was more aggressive and kept at it; with my experience level I had no idea, but I felt that once I had tried a few things and not gotten it figured out at that point, I did not want to waste time that could (was!) used for prepping to fly a new canopy (the reserve) and getting used to flaring it, playing around with its responses, etc.. by 3k I guess i felt I had done all I was comfortable doing at my level, and didn't think it was fixable/land-able, but had it been, I could have found that out too low for my comfort! Tongue

Thanks for the insight on the situation.. are you generally wanting to use both toggles, or mostly inputs on the side that is screwy? I couldn't remember and that is a big part of why I may have been timid with an attempt to pressurize it and fix the line, because I did not want to damage the canopy or worsen the situation (though realistically, when you are on the brink of a cutaway, it's hard to "worsen" things too much haha)

------------
As for the downsize, what happened was they wanted to get me transitioned to the 210 one or two months ago, and have me on 190 or 170 by now, but I tried them on at the time and they were too loose in the legs, so I was relegated to jumping the 240 until my rig arrived.

Then we had a bunch of AFFs yesterday, and we were fighting (nicely) over the small-harnessed 240, and they said to give the 190 a try again- and it actually did fit (I don't know the deal, whether the person who tried it on with me before was mistaken about proper fit, if I didn't pull the leg straps all the way when I first tried it on? *shrug* And NO I didn't gain 30 pounds lol (I hope!) Shocked

I mean, I couldn't tighten them as much as I am used to on the 240, but it was snug/safe, no worries. I had been having major issues w/ overshooting and floating away on landings, and my rigger and instructors speculated that a big part of that was the wing loading on the student 240-- a 0.65:1

Since landing *location/accuracy* was the issue (not my ability to flare properly or safely) my instructors/mentors said they actually thought I would be safer and more successful on something a little closer to 0.9-1:1; it was just a matter of thinking (erroneously, probably because I was being a dumbass when I first tried it on) that none of the smaller mains had harnesses that could fit in the leg straps. Thus we thought I needed to keep with a 240 longer than otherwise ideal.

As someone else said, I am actually now still well below 1:1.. and while a reserve is obviously a different beast, both size of this one, and general construction and piloting, I felt comfortable landing it, both pattern/location, and the flare (at least it was a low winder hop n pop. so no "out" reserve landings for me! (yet)

Also, yes I did put Sabre2 in the profile, but I shouldn't assume that is accurate for certain. It might not actually have been a S2- I was guessing until I find out for sure, since my understanding is that students fly Navs and transition/rentals are Sabre2s.. but not completely confident in that so don't quote me!

As I said I and others seem to think that I am pretty conservative canopy pilot (sometimes too conservative with toggle corrections or pattern adjustments, but I'm gettin' there!), and don't plan to "downsize" (beyond the transition to my 170/176R next season w/ my own gear) but I do think it's a good wing loading based on the charts I have read, and based on my instructors' feedback.. I'd say no if I felt uncomfortable, but I do trust my instructors and riggers, and I felt/feel good with the decision.. (well, unless there is a crucial piece of info that I lack, lol- but my experience leads me to think it was a good and safe call, and experienced folks discussed w/ me..)

I do agree, though, that it is a huge-sounding decrease-- 50 sq ft difference! But as one rigger explained to me, it's not just the *difference* between them in sq ft, it is the other factors like the properties of the canopies in question, the wing-loadings involved, and the sizes being compared as well (i.e. a 240 to a 190 is much less scary than a 150 to a 104 though the second is actually a smaller change in WL!)

Thanks for your input all!! I like that others look out for folk here (and at the non-cyber dz too), and am always open to input and ideas about safety etc.

Ok I have written another novel, time to go spank myself.. Angelic


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 1, 2010, 9:18 PM)


TSISK  (B 36373)

Nov 1, 2010, 4:11 PM
Post #24 of 76 (2265 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
time to go spank myself.. Angelic
\
BlushBlushBlushBlushBlushBlush


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 1, 2010, 4:12 PM
Post #25 of 76 (2261 views)
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Re: [TSISK] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
time to go spank myself.. Angelic
\
BlushBlushBlushBlushBlushBlush

woohoo... wanna help me out?

Angelic


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 1, 2010, 4:50 PM
Post #26 of 76 (1098 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was not just sitting on my ass either, I opened the door, looked out, and literally within 1-2 seconds, almost simultaneously, the light went yellow to green, and the shout of "go" came forth as I was crouching to exit poised (yellow had been on till then and I was looking for the airport).

Were the go-shouters in a position to see whether the spot was truly correct? Were they in a position to see whether there was another aircraft below the plane that could present a hazard on the jump?? Because if the answer to either of those is No, then they can go fuck themselves.


TSISK  (B 36373)

Nov 1, 2010, 5:19 PM
Post #27 of 76 (1087 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
time to go spank myself.. Angelic
\
BlushBlushBlushBlushBlushBlush

woohoo... wanna help me out?

Angelic
Always willing to help out a fellow skydiverWink


(This post was edited by TSISK on Nov 1, 2010, 5:20 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 1, 2010, 5:40 PM
Post #28 of 76 (1075 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

>are you generally wanting to use both toggles, or mostly inputs on the side
>that is screwy?

Whatever works. At your canopy loading you're not in too much danger of spinning up very rapidly, so you might want to just fuss with the problem toggle if the other one has no noticeable effect. As you get higher in loading, you want to make sure you don't let the canopy spin up while you're working on it, because you can lose altitude in a hurry. In the paragliding world the formula is "steer-pump-steer" to remind you that controlling the canopy is the important thing. And if it does start to get away from you (i.e. no longer responds to inputs) then it's time to get rid of it.

As always make sure you have a good canopy before you get to your decision altitude; don't mess with it so long that you either lose track of altitude or you fly over some place bad. Amy messed with a stuck toggle too long a few years back and wound up in Mexico (literally.)


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Nov 1, 2010, 10:06 PM
Post #29 of 76 (1019 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you just explained the GO call....you said you had your head out the door when the yellow was on, then how could you tell the green had come ? I would bet a beer it was a basic, friendly, "go", since you could not see the light. To let you know the light was green. I could be wrong, but I bet it was not a " GO Mother Fxcker ! " kind of thing. You hear alot of Mild, Friendly "Goes" on Hop n Pops.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Nov 1, 2010, 10:33 PM
Post #30 of 76 (1013 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Another post to Flower...be aware that there are some Drop Zones who don't give a light on a Hop n Pop. They might not even reduce their speed, which means the tail will be sitting lower than you might be used to. In that case, going BIG into the relative wind is a VERY bad idea, Just dropping off into a Style Box or less, would be a better idea. Just be aware of it. We're all friends here. Stay Safe and Stay Alive.


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 2, 2010, 12:24 AM
Post #31 of 76 (996 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

You are quite possibly right.. part of my brain tells me that I glanced in and back, and saw the actual transition (yellow to green) as I was moving into position, but your brain gets foggy at those crucial moments.. I know I was looking to check its status every little while, but what felt like a brief check could have been longer than I thought, as a new jumper.. and it was indeed a slightly different view, so yeah, I was still in "look for the airport and see what is below me while trying to keep one eye on the switching of the light and position myself well in the door" multi-task mode!

I think I probably did just take longer to recognize it, though it really did not feel like it, and its all relative.. since I was looking out the door, and it did weird me out a bit not seeing the airport where i initially thought it should be, it was my first time opening the door and spotting and all that alone too so plenty of factors there.. could have distracted me from reacting quite as promptly..

Thanks for the alternate explanation. A "yay, you can jump now!" exclamation is *much* happier than a "get out the god-damn plane, you asshole" exclamation. Lol.

That said, I stand by my position that the door/exit can be a distracting place, and is a crucial part of the skydive (a lesson which cost me over 5k, some new teeth, and a month lay-off this summer) and as you mention, whether or not they give a light and/or a cut, communication, etc. can make it more or less risky, and can vary (but I really hope even when it varies they are good about communication.. that is just as much my job though as the pilots, so I guess the lesson too is be proactive..)

So yeah- my vote goes saying nothing-- especially if there is no extreme delay, and no legit spotting/wind/out landing concerns. Or, at *least* to apply to AFF and student jumpers minimum (not a BSR by any means, I simply refer to accepted cultural standard in my preferences here)- because even if you mean well, which you sure well might and your train of thought makes sense to me, any loud or unexpected/sharp sounding words are going to throw another variable/pressure at a student who may have enough to contemplate, and potential to mess with their concentration-- a newbie like me, though I have come far since my spring days lol, is someone who already has other things on their mind, to get out that door stable and safe, and deploy a functioning parachute, ya know? And if I hear a loud GO, I want to be confident that it's time to fuck looking at the colored lights or playing with my helmet strap and get the fuck out so the plane doesn't kill us all.. ya know? It's all communication I guess..

I guess for me, if something is really taking more than a few seconds and I am legitimately creating an issue (for me, or others), a simple reminder of the word "green" would work- that way you are helpfully letting them know that the light is green, but not giving a COMMAND like "go" which makes you feel like you are under pressure or being told to act.

Plus, it's my generation's mindset of green light and GPS- yes green light just came on, but I still better be able to see where I am and know there is no plane flying underneath me before I have any intent of hurtling out, so I think there is a happy medium, and I do appreciate your input. But I think even the "otter babies" (and I probably count though I've never jumped one, just a PAC) know that green means go when you feel safe to go, it doesn't mean the be all and end all of exiting an aircraft.. but, it is a pretty damn good hint Tongue

And honestly, it was not malicious in my eyes, in this case.. I think people just get amped up and don't think things through to the extent others of us do lol. For example, I know I have gotten excited for a new AFF student and gave them a handshake before getting out, and some instructors don't like that, which I respect and understand- but at the time, then, you might not be looking through the lens of, what if I distract them as they are visualizing-- you just think, oh you are a fellow jumper and that you are being useful or friendly or encouraging. While they (or their AFFI/coach) might not see it the same way! So I get the point- well made, and I can relate Smile

Thanks again! Blue ones!

In reply to:
Another post to Flower...be aware that there are some Drop Zones who don't give a light on a Hop n Pop. They might not even reduce their speed, which means the tail will be sitting lower than you might be used to. In that case, going BIG into the relative wind is a VERY bad idea, Just dropping off into a Style Box or less, would be a better idea. Just be aware of it. We're all friends here. Stay Safe and Stay Alive.
Thanks also for this. I will be making my first trip to Elsinore in 3 weeks, and with my limited knowledge (I have been to a grand total of 3 DZs, and surely nothing that big EVER) I can use all the help possible with ideas and safety tips for how other DZs do things differently.

Poised is actually my least favorite position for hop n pop (or anything lol) I did floating for my 5500 A card, but they had me do poised for my 3500 A card req and I just kept doijg it since I guess.. I like the outside floating and present into the wind.. that said, diving out is my favorite.

By getting big in the relative wind, which position were you referring to (or to any position that increases bodily exposure to the rel wind, lol)? I will damn straight tell the pilot I demand a cut, and if s/he wants me to buy an extra gallon of fuel to compensate, I will gladly do it. (If ya can't tell, plane parts frighten me, esp when they come in contact with my face or body!) but... what is the safest position, anyone know, for a hop n pop exit?

I know now I am licensed, I can do whatever, and I don't really like the crouching poised at all compared to outside floating or diveout,, Is there a difference in safety level as far as type of exit and type of plane or door being jumped? Even w/ a cut I know that Beech and PAC and such are lower tail A/C..

Sorta off topic, but this is safety and training eh, and you brought it up first Wink Happy to hear any others knowledge or opinion.. Mods I'll ask elsewhere if you like.. but i do actually need to pass out for the evening now Tongue

blue skies, R


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 2, 2010, 12:50 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 2, 2010, 3:22 AM
Post #32 of 76 (981 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Were you the last or only H&P or were there others waiting behind you?


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 2, 2010, 5:47 AM
Post #33 of 76 (969 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Were you the last or only H&P or were there others waiting behind you?

I was the first and only hop and pop, no one was waiting except those going up to 14k! They had a ways to go yet lol.

I sat closest to door (right bench seat in PAC750), got onto floor around 1.5k, after seat belts off at 1k and got my helmet and goggles ready by around 2.5k, another gear/pin check, then yellow came on for door around 3.5k. I requested a 3.5 H/P but usually they take you to 4-4.5 (no complaints here.. I know they just like to have the lower one in to get you used to emergency exits and canopy control jumps, an extra thousand is a good thing if anything Wink)

I called "door" when red went to yellow at about 3.5-3.7k, opened, spotted, occasional glances up and to the right, where the light is mounted, while holding the overhead bar for support when leaning out (I am a bit timid and need to really lean out, but I am getting better).

I was kind of doing a little "dance"- look out for airport and glance up to the right while pulling back a bit to check light status, glance left at alti, and head back out to look for other airplanes, the airport, etc. That was the cycle of 3 things I recall alternating, it could have taken a few seconds longer than an experienced jumper, but I would think if you asked someone on the load, they would not say that I freaked out or neglected to exit beyond maybe a few extra seconds..

Now note that it doesn't mean anyone fucked up or anything, just means I am inexperienced and directionally challenged, and was on a different side of the airport than the past 4 or 5 HPs I did..

But, to answer your question, in a long version lol (I am so bad.. caffeine, my god. I have been up all night alternating studying and skydive blabbing on here.. forgive my indiscretions please Tongue) Yes-- I was both first out, the only jumper in charge of the hop and pop except the experienced/rated jumper I had asked to do my gear check for me before exiting, and the only low exit on the load- everyone else went to 13.5-14.5k.

Were you thinking if there were multiple hop and pops it could have added to the concern about exit time and order?


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 2, 2010, 9:34 AM)


JohnnyMarko

Nov 2, 2010, 7:54 AM
Post #34 of 76 (947 views)
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Re: [ManagingPrime] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

At 68 jumps, I'd say you qualify to give downsizing advice.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Nov 2, 2010, 8:17 AM
Post #35 of 76 (942 views)
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Re: [JohnnyMarko] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At 68 jumps, I'd say you qualify to give downsizing advice.

Agreed.

Now...
240 student canopy to 190 sport transition at 30 jumps? Seems a bit of a step down to me too.

Now, IF the jumper is me (253.9-lbs out the door)... that's a heck of a change.
If the jumper is my wife (190-lbs out the door)... not so much.

But with 30 jumps, ANY jumper should also be counseled on the differences to expect with the different canopy.

All of this is better left to the instructor working with the new jumper that any advice given here (positive or negative).

But... that's just my $.02

JW


ManagingPrime

Nov 2, 2010, 9:55 AM
Post #36 of 76 (925 views)
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Re: [JohnnyMarko] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At 68 jumps, I'd say you qualify to give downsizing advice.

Well...what can I say...I'm just cool like that. Tongue

Seriously, I was not trying to give advice, nor do I see how my comment was construed as such. I asked the question to clarify as I'm also new, as you so graciously pointed out, and my downsize took longer than 30 jumps and it was from 220 to 200 to 190. In no wind my butt still puckers on the 190. I've never heard of that kind of downsize for students.Unsure


liftedtitan

Nov 2, 2010, 10:43 AM
Post #37 of 76 (913 views)
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Re: [ManagingPrime] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

well how much do you weigh?

that says it all, she could have been at like .7/1 WL on the 240 who knows. Size alone isn't the only determinant.


ManagingPrime

Nov 2, 2010, 12:29 PM
Post #38 of 76 (883 views)
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Re: [liftedtitan] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

We are probably not to vastly different in WL.

Without gear im 155-160

In my personal opinon (and based on my limited understanding of the conventional wisdom regarding WL) I don't think the wingloading is excessive, but in my personal experience the downsize from 220 to 200 took some getting used to, nerves increased, etc. and while the transition to a 190 sport from the 200 student was not as tough as the 220 to 200 transition it took a little getting used to as it to was different (I do love sport canopies Laugh )...the ground rush still gets a little spooky at times.

I think my transition from 220 to 200 was around 25-30 jumps and 200 to 190 sport at around 55/56.

Again, it's my personal opinion and at 30 jumps I wanted to jump into a 190 sport and I don't think anyone would have stoped me, but I'm comfortable with my transition pace. The 240 student to 190 sport at 30 jumps did catch my eye...it just seems like a lot to take in at that point. But, as previously noted it should be left to instructors to make that determination....and If I read the post right, that 190 sport has not been landed yet.Crazy

Edit: To add emphasis


(This post was edited by ManagingPrime on Nov 2, 2010, 12:42 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 2, 2010, 12:58 PM
Post #39 of 76 (865 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
By getting big in the relative wind, which position were you referring to (or to any position that increases bodily exposure to the rel wind, lol)? I will damn straight tell the pilot I demand a cut, and if s/he wants me to buy an extra gallon of fuel to compensate, I will gladly do it. (If ya can't tell, plane parts frighten me, esp when they come in contact with my face or body!) but... what is the safest position, anyone know, for a hop n pop exit?

When you get to Elsinore, ask me or one of the other instructors. We'll be happy to show you. It'll be a 3 minute conversation, and hop n' pops from an Otter are very easy.

How many plane parts have you made contact with on exit?


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Nov 2, 2010, 2:27 PM
Post #40 of 76 (838 views)
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Re: [DSE] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
By getting big in the relative wind, which position were you referring to (or to any position that increases bodily exposure to the rel wind, lol)? I will damn straight tell the pilot I demand a cut, and if s/he wants me to buy an extra gallon of fuel to compensate, I will gladly do it. (If ya can't tell, plane parts frighten me, esp when they come in contact with my face or body!) but... what is the safest position, anyone know, for a hop n pop exit?

When you get to Elsinore, ask me or one of the other instructors. We'll be happy to show you. It'll be a 3 minute conversation, and hop n' pops from an Otter are very easy.

How many plane parts have you made contact with on exit?

She got a pretty good taste of a 182 step.

Details HERE.

Congrats on the "A" Robyn!!!Smile

I think it's safe to say you earned it.

Good luck out west, hopefully I can jump with you, although it will probably have to wait until next season.Frown


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 2, 2010, 2:47 PM
Post #41 of 76 (830 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Forgive me for skipping the novel. If you're suggesting a 182 bit the OP, I understand. No step on an Otter and the pilot levels out and cuts, so Elsinore will be easy.


(This post was edited by DSE on Nov 2, 2010, 5:36 PM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Nov 2, 2010, 3:38 PM
Post #42 of 76 (814 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW - at my home DZ, I often do h&p's and noticed a very smart policy...

IF there is a student, A-license or unknown jumper doing the H&P, the pilot always runs jump run straight... (level/cut/etc).

IFF (and only if) the pilot knows the jumper and they have an agreement with the particular jumper, the exit can be made while still in a climb. AND the pilot will level/slow upon request by any jumper leaving on the H&P pass.

Personally, I have no problem leaving in a climb from this plane (Otter)... healthy respect for the tail, in a plane with a high tail and experience with such exits and freefall stability.

But the default is slow/level (much safer when unsure what the jumper is expecting/doing).

As to the "GET THE F OUT"... there are many ways of dealing with these folks. But unless there is fire (or similar emergency) they can wait, or they can go ahead of you. We had one spotter back away from the door and indicate that the next group could exit ahead of her, but she also pointed to the traffic at our low-'6'...Shocked They shut up...

JW


hobie331  (D 29519)

Nov 2, 2010, 4:33 PM
Post #43 of 76 (805 views)
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Re: [ksudiver87] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not sure if you jump at a large DZ or a small 182 DZ..but if the place allows, try asking for a go- around when people start to Bitch :) Be the Ass Hole all skydivers try to be. Congrats on the save and ACool

Aubrey, I can't believe you would even say such a thing.
Problem is too many people that have never jumped a 182 think the spot "is the green light."

Oh, and congrats on saving your own life.


(This post was edited by hobie331 on Nov 2, 2010, 4:34 PM)


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 2, 2010, 9:08 PM
Post #44 of 76 (759 views)
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Re: [hobie331] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha wow I have like 10 questions to answer and I am supposed to be "concise"..
We all know that never happens... Angelic

In reply to:
well how much do you weigh?

that says it all, she could have been at like .7/1 WL on the 240 who knows. Size alone isn't the only determinant.
I fluctuate between about 130 to 140 lbs. When last calculated, my exit weight is/was 155. I don't have the math in my log book in front of me and am too lazy to go find it right now, but I think it was in the 0.64 or 0.65 range on the 240 when I calculated it!! (*less* than the 0.7 you half sarcastically wrote lol) I do think there are some gender differences.. many a female's first own canopy is a 170- for many a male that may not be a great idea at all!!!

I was actually having some issues w/ canopy which some staff at the dz said they believed were being caused by too light of a wing loading at my student level, level of toggle input, and my body shape and size/weight. With these other factors (mainly was hopelessly overshooting LZ and the parachute was basically flying me and not the reverse, kwim? and concerns about lack of control in winds that would not be an issue on a normal 0.8-1.0 WL as much. So, there are pros and cons on both ends.

WL calculation and canopy sizing debrief was required on my A proficiency card/student training, as well as a discussion of the charts and different factors, so I did very early on figure and discuss these things for the 240, its reserve, as well as the 170M/176R set-up that I jumped rental at sunset load today and that I'll have for me in Jan.

I haven't made any big decisions without tons of input from those more experienced and who have instructed me.. This decision (to shoot for an ideal canopy in the 170 main range bu A-B license range) was based after months of jumping the 240 and observing, and of discussing my techniques and needs, my landings, and when and how different canopy planforms and fabrics, and changes in speed and size, not just using wing-loading as the only relevant factor.

ManagingPrime, I think you are 100% right that the important part is that we all talk to our instructors and feel comfortable with our pace- No hard feelings on my end, I appreciate your perspective, and I can see how one would initially have a question called to mind at seeing those numbers. I am glad that you are feeling good with your progression too. And I think this is important aspect of a things to talk about, and I do want you and others reading to know that it was a very specific decision with training behind it, not random.. but opinions will still vary and we all have our risk tolerance variation, but I don't feel overly exposed to risks at this wl given other safety condutions of course..

So yeah, it *is* a huge difference numerically. But then when you (*me* I mean, lol) sit down with multiple riggers and AFFIs with thousands of jumps, telling you the benefits and risks, how they differ, and explaining things like speed, flare technique, mals, turns, and especially that the difference lies not in the DIFFERENCE/number subtracted, but the actual difference of the canopies that are the starting and ending point, you see it different a bit, I realize I know very little compared to them!After discussing with other instructors and riggers, and learning that 150 or less is still considered to have some more "high-maintenance" handling traits, I decided that, with a 190 and/or 170, and definitely a slightly larger reserve than main, I am comfortable with that as are all my instructors.

For what it is worth, in response to the fact that "I haven't actually landed that 190 yet.." Well, the point you make is true in that my first jump on the 190, Sunday day, ended in my landing its reserve, a completely different canopy made of F-111 and made to be docile (but, size-wise, I believe it was a PD-R 176 sq ft, so possibly actually smaller then the 190- in size/WL alone at least..)

And please folks, hold the flames.. I may not have landed the 190 sport on Halloween due to cutaway situation, but I can tell you that my day *today* concluded with me landing 170 main rental canopy available at my dz, which is the same canopy I am setting up in my rig in January size/WL wise.

Landed it was great, felt great with control, but of course it will take more time on the 190 and 170 to get fully comfortable. I definitely noticed on the smaller main (and also the smaller reserve landing) that the ground rush and ground speed seemed extremely intimidating, I agree you get used to a big student canopy it does feel scary- there can surely but a difference though between useful fear, and unfounded or distracting fear (just read Germain's Transcending Fear- highly recommend) So yeah it gives you a viscreal reaction to see the ground so different and fast at first, but now I now that at least so far, I actually have more flare, I know I know when to flare, etc. so I need to focus on safe landing on not let myself get distracted my the fasted groudn rush, IMHO and for me at least!

But yeah without too much more debating or explaining, I totally agree with your initial response- the damn that is a big drop-down kind of feeling. But really want you, and other newer jumpers reading this thread perhaps, to know the decisions in my training have been carefully weighed and (over)analyzed by me and my instructors, and I feel good about my choices, limits, and the input i have received as well to guide those choices.

-----------------------------
DSE, thank you! I would love to meet you and other folks for some training, discussion, and/or jumpage when in Lake Elsinore. I'll PM you closer to then too!

As for the number of times I have inappropriately made contact with an aircraft (no, not like that!! hehe) it was just the one incident. I had only done poised exits prior, four of them, plus a tandem first jump req, where I was just releasing arms and legs into an arch after count and the two AFFIs were basically pulling me off the step at the right angle. I switched dzs shortly thereafter which also may have contributed, but mostly I did not have enough experience to know how little I knew, and had no concept that the relative wind was not going to push me away from that chunk of major hurt without a concerted effort on my part to exit out to the side, slightly back, and not up or down in any drastic direction.

It was easily a major screw-up on my part, but I learned a lot from it.. People were very supportive of helping me with exit techniques so far too though, and encouraging em to keep at it when the going gets tough at times, though as you know I have very little experience- only a C182, and the PAC 750, any new exits and planes may take some retraining too1

Tailgates are the other ones that make me nervous.. But, the otter seems it would be pretty straightforward. I appreciate any help I can get on ideal Hop n Pop or emergency bailout exits- I know what i prefer to do (dive outs, occasional outside of plane float) but also know that with plane and position and situation, I cannot always get to choose that.. And would like to have more knowledge and practice with body position for hop n pops and generalized jumps.. so.. thanks again!

Oh and speaking of the Cessna 182.. that was the plane in use tonight! First time and only time I have jumped the Cessna at SK-SPC actually, barring my "problem exit" earlier in the summer.. the Cessna was good to me today Tongue

On the topic of the OP hop n pop jump and cutaway chain of events-- it was good to get over it and jump soon after the fist cutawar/reserve.. point being, it felt really good to get back up there and not have to wait a week, after my first cutaway..

Joe and others, I am bogged down in about 50% school and childcare, and the other half overwhelmed by obsessing about my jumpage plans haha, and/or generally lacking both time and motivation to accomplish things.. meh. Winter begins... I do believe it is indeed my turn for a letter to my fellow WI "pen pal?" so keep an eye out for one from m this week- love to catch up And thanks for the congrats.

One more weekend of the PAC at SK-POC-- come one down if you have an off week from work? All are welcome.. well all cool people CoolTongue

Ok well I seriously am exhasuted and probably making no sense now, am definitely officially feeling the exhaustion creep in.. off I go to my warm cozy bed.. so, i hope I answered your questions, maybe when I have more wakefulness energy I will make a yes/no question/answer version haha.. and sorry if this tired rambling makes no sense at all.

but quite seriously, as a writer it does take me twice as long to edit down after you "stream consciousness" and get all your thought on paper first.. oh well, hope at least some of you can read it. I guess overall, I was the only hop and pop, I did land the 170 as well, and am very comfortable with the training given for my canopy progression so far.. just looking forward to getting my custom rig woo hoo! Oh and I did NOT pack the cutaway, don;t know who did or whether part of the two main mals were linked to less than ideal body position either. I have pcked baout 10 mains, some for practice, and jumped all mine (4) last weekend Sunday.. nice openings so far, so that;s a good feeling too Smile So far, so good...

Anyways, talk to you guys later, thanks for the feedback, i'm still kinda reeling over the cutaway and being licensed now too a little bit, lol (but jumping today was a good thing for sure after a cutaway imho!)

Night all!!
blues,
R


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 2, 2010, 10:52 PM)


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Nov 2, 2010, 9:44 PM
Post #45 of 76 (744 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Geez Girl....You can really type up a Storm. My question today is .....did you Vote today.....No, that's too personal. How about this.....Just about every night "at least" one of my dreams is a skydive dream.....either hanging out with my friends at a Drop Zone, or with Bill D. for some reason ?????? Or the recurring super low (100 ft) cut away dream where I never fully inflate my reserve, but do a tippy toe landing. Have you started having jump dreams "yet" ( because you will ) ?


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 3, 2010, 6:56 AM
Post #46 of 76 (702 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Geez Girl....You can really type up a Storm. My question today is .....did you Vote today.....No, that's too personal. How about this.....Just about every night "at least" one of my dreams is a skydive dream.....either hanging out with my friends at a Drop Zone, or with Bill D. for some reason ?????? Or the recurring super low (100 ft) cut away dream where I never fully inflate my reserve, but do a tippy toe landing. Have you started having jump dreams "yet" ( because you will ) ?

Haha oh god... politics... let's just say I am not thrilled right now, and I don't wanna fucking talk about the god damn election or anything else Mad

Man I am just about all typed out, ya'll should be proud of yourselves. Wink Was that the goal with bombarding me with all those questions at once at like midnight? Wink

I don't think I have had one yet (jump dream though think I have been at the dz or driving to/from it) but I actually don't often remember my dreams unless I wake spontaneously, and between alarm clock or toddler waking me, doesn't happen.. *shrug* so not certain but i'd hope i'd know if and when i did!

Does it "feel the same" in a dream, like, uh, other things do?

I have read that dreaming is similar to visualizing whilst awake, if you can control it perhaps, in that it helps your brain cells learn how to "fire" for certain actions (esp sports music etc) but uhh might wanna stop "practicing" that 100 footer cutaway TongueTongue I do imagine though that the brain cells/"muscle memory" is somehow activated by doing skydiving things (i.e. cutaway-pull silver) in a dream sequence.. weirdness. Dreams fascinate me.. when did you start having them? (edit.. lol that came out wrong- the sky ones i mean haha)

i guess i always used to dream about flying (no canopy but not freefall feeling, you know the ones! just jump up and off ya go- reverse of gravity kind of situation haha- but i bet they'd feel different now that I skydive because it would feel like a freefall, and i would be thinking about altitude and shit.. no more carefree floating in my dreams i suppose.. huh. that's kind of bittersweet actually.. i liked those dreams (but i do happen to like real jumping even more)

blue ones, goin back to bed, think i caught a sore throat bug Pirate


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 3, 2010, 7:00 AM)


format  (B 15348)

Nov 3, 2010, 7:30 AM
Post #47 of 76 (689 views)
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Re: a 100 novelists, ocean bottom... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
blue ones, goin back to bed, think i caught a sore throat bug

Don' nobody wake her up!! LaughLaughLaugh
Can't we invent some 'novel alarm'?
We could name it NOPRESS
and we'd switch it on when on dz.com

sure I like her too


Fast  (D 28237)

Nov 3, 2010, 8:09 AM
Post #48 of 76 (680 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So.....Sky Knights SPC has a bunch of "Go Idiots"....good to know.

Especially good to know that it was directed at a youngster.

No we don't. Thanks for selling my DZ short based on one post, by one person, with 30 jumps, that really has her hands full just remembering all the right things to do on a skydive. (Not picking on you Robyn, that's just where you're at right now). I wasn't on that load, but someone was who I do trust to tell me the truth was and as far as she can remember (a skydiving staff member/instructor with over 1500 jumps) no one was "yelling". There was likely a "Go" because as noted elsewhere in this thread, you were spotting when the light changed from yellow to green.

As for hop and pop's and cuts, everyone gets one, students and experienced jumpers. Proper configuration of the plane for a hop and pop pass is flaps on and nose slightly down and everyone gets that. I have had to physically stop someone from jumping before the green was on, because they were about to do a poised exit into the tail, I don't understand why either because we tell new jumpers to the dz about these things and there are signs in the plane.

I'm not writing this post to talk about or nit pick every little issue that people have brought up in this thread, but I don't want people thinking that my dropzone is full of people who are yelling go. It just isn't. As for any of the commentary about downsizing, what's being done with her is what's reasonable and safe, and I say that as an aff instructor that has seen her jumps.

Also, Robyn does write a lot, maybe a bit more than she should, but if you don't like it don't read her posts. I wish people wouldn't be so mean about it. She talks more than she writes too. Wrap your head around that. It takes some getting used to and everyone doesn't always have time to listen to everything, but she is just an enthusiastic new jumper, be nice.


(This post was edited by Fast on Nov 3, 2010, 8:10 AM)


ksudiver87  (C 38895)

Nov 3, 2010, 9:39 AM
Post #49 of 76 (658 views)
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Re: [Fast] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a 182 jumper..so what is the rule, when jumping from otter, pac ect..on a go-around? If your spot is off or long, is it finacially sound to do a go around or is it just a pain in the butt?


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 3, 2010, 10:40 AM
Post #50 of 76 (645 views)
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Re: [ksudiver87] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm a 182 jumper..so what is the rule, when jumping from otter, pac ect..on a go-around? If your spot is off or long, is it finacially sound to do a go around or is it just a pain in the butt?

Chances of your spot being bad out of the Otter on hop & pops is pretty rare, especially since you would likely be pulling with plenty of alti to get back... I've never seen anyone ask for a go-around in the Otter for a hop & pop. Unless you have a real good reason, I don't think many people are going to be happy about the request.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Nov 3, 2010, 11:08 AM
Post #51 of 76 (1112 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm a 182 jumper..so what is the rule, when jumping from otter, pac ect..on a go-around? If your spot is off or long, is it finacially sound to do a go around or is it just a pain in the butt?

Chances of your spot being bad out of the Otter on hop & pops is pretty rare, especially since you would likely be pulling with plenty of alti to get back... I've never seen anyone ask for a go-around in the Otter for a hop & pop. Unless you have a real good reason, I don't think many people are going to be happy about the request.

Other aircraft below you is a real good reason to ask for a go-around regardless of airplane.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 3, 2010, 11:49 AM
Post #52 of 76 (1100 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm a 182 jumper..so what is the rule, when jumping from otter, pac ect..on a go-around? If your spot is off or long, is it finacially sound to do a go around or is it just a pain in the butt?

Chances of your spot being bad out of the Otter on hop & pops is pretty rare, especially since you would likely be pulling with plenty of alti to get back... I've never seen anyone ask for a go-around in the Otter for a hop & pop. Unless you have a real good reason, I don't think many people are going to be happy about the request.

Other aircraft below you is a real good reason to ask for a go-around regardless of airplane.

Depending on where it is... I agree! Cloud cover can also be a good reason... There ARE obviously some good reasons for a go-around which is why I worded it that way to begin with. Wink


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 3, 2010, 2:42 PM
Post #53 of 76 (1075 views)
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Re: [Fast] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So.....Sky Knights SPC has a bunch of "Go Idiots"....good to know.

Especially good to know that it was directed at a youngster.

No we don't. Thanks for selling my DZ short based on one post, by one person, with 30 jumps, that really has her hands full just remembering all the right things to do on a skydive. (Not picking on you Robyn, that's just where you're at right now). I wasn't on that load, but someone was who I do trust to tell me the truth was and as far as she can remember (a skydiving staff member/instructor with over 1500 jumps) no one was "yelling". There was likely a "Go" because as noted elsewhere in this thread, you were spotting when the light changed from yellow to green.

As for hop and pop's and cuts, everyone gets one, students and experienced jumpers. Proper configuration of the plane for a hop and pop pass is flaps on and nose slightly down and everyone gets that. I have had to physically stop someone from jumping before the green was on, because they were about to do a poised exit into the tail, I don't understand why either because we tell new jumpers to the dz about these things and there are signs in the plane.

I'm not writing this post to talk about or nit pick every little issue that people have brought up in this thread, but I don't want people thinking that my dropzone is full of people who are yelling go. It just isn't. As for any of the commentary about downsizing, what's being done with her is what's reasonable and safe, and I say that as an aff instructor that has seen her jumps.

Also, Robyn does write a lot, maybe a bit more than she should, but if you don't like it don't read her posts. I wish people wouldn't be so mean about it. She talks more than she writes too. Wrap your head around that. It takes some getting used to and everyone doesn't always have time to listen to everything, but she is just an enthusiastic new jumper, be nice.

Thanks D, and no offense taken. It's true, that is exactly where I am at- I still f'ing *remind* myself to arch in freefall (maybe I shouldn't admit that Tongue) and check alti every 500 to thousand feet like a crazy person, and have a million questions about just about everything (as D can attest.. on the other side of the coin, he doesn't "use his words" at all though, he just violently hits you in the eye with his nerf weapon to convey his points!! Tongue Kidding... Angelic)

But yes, I am nowhere near experienced enough for my summary of anything to be taken as fact in the skydiving world, hence my frequent references to "experienced folks agreed" or "we thought this" or the questions or rhetorical things I say- I don't ever mean for my perception to be taken as reality. The fact is someone said go as they likely saw yellow to green before I noticed. I don't know who, I assume no one at my dz has malicious intent to me, and I don't "blame" or involve that, it's just a detail that plays into my recall of the chronology of my mental state and physical acts, like a memory landmark I guess in recounting a stressful situation of first cutaway jump.

And, D, thank you for clarifying- I think I meant "yelling" as in loud and enunciated-- everyone yells about everything on the plane w/ an open door, cause it's a freakin aeroplane, and it is loud! Not 'yelling' as in angry face glaring and peeved.

Though I do think the word go, in my own bastion of sensitivity and political correctness, could be done away with except extreme situations, and/or replaced by "green," since "go" is not the same as "green" (ah semantics.. but really though) and since go is a command-word, which I do think should be avoided unless it is a command related to improved safety or emergency.. but my opinion could change in 5 jumps, or in 500, and I refer mainly to theory and dz culture, no particular complaints about my dz, so it is neither here nor there and I have too little experience to know all the ins and outs anywho.. and like said it's rare anyway.

Thanks for the input on canopy too D- I have had several long (and when I say long, it means *long*) talks with several of our senior and master riggers and AFF instructors about everything from toggle position, stall, flare, glide ratio, canopy materials, wingloading, etc. (over two mos building up to changing my main size/canopy. and I wouldn't agree to a plan if I didn't trust that, along with my own education and knowledge that it is a safe plan, that many many people who know a hell of a lot more than me also feel it is appropriate. 31 jumps and 0.9 sounds right based on those who have seen me as D attests, and the charts as well. (As I said in a pm though, it's all good to raise safety questions, I appreciate the concern. It's all good and has been handled well by many experienced/rated instructors and riggers Smile

Anyway I will point out again, I drive nearly twice the distance and changed DZs into AFF to have the opportunity to jump at SkyKnights. So, that says something. And I am pretty sure most of my finances this year should just have been directly deposited at the dz. It's worth it. No question. Everyone there has gone out of their way to help keep me and others safe and have respect for one another. No political bs, just saying from my own experience/Px. I do not want to give the impression that anything different is true.. I lurve my home dz haha.

I have heard a "go" TWICE ever, so this is not a huge situation, and no one has ever been blatantly angry/cruel to me, that I perceived, any perceptions I have are generally my own skydive stuff and over thinking going on in my head lol. Anyway-- thanks guys for your feedback and clarifications..

Hey Derrick-- did the reserve freebag come down too? Ever find it? J had the canopy when they picked me up in the cart, but I forgot to ask about the bag!?

And do you happen to know the answer to the most important question of the week- what liquor does my reserve re-packer/life saver enjoy drinking? :) Bought way too many different six packs today... Capital Oktoberfest, Spotted Cow, Fat Tire, Dogfish Head, and one or two local ones that the beer man recommended. Thus, I hope you are prepared to celebrate the last "official" Pac/season weekend with me Smile

And btw-- thanks for looking out, and thanks for tolerating my words that come faster than I can think them over sometimes *foot in mouth* and answering my million hyper newb questions at times. I think over time one mellows out a bit.. I hope Angelic


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 3, 2010, 2:49 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 3, 2010, 5:23 PM
Post #54 of 76 (1053 views)
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Re: [Fast] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So.....Sky Knights SPC has a bunch of "Go Idiots"....good to know.

Especially good to know that it was directed at a youngster.

No we don't. Thanks for selling my DZ short based on one post, by one person, with 30 jumps, that really has her hands full just remembering all the right things to do on a skydive. (Not picking on you Robyn, that's just where you're at right now).

Well, Fast, it's all about the youngsters and how THEY perceive things now isn't it? Please don't ask me to disregard their feelings.

Doesn't really matter whether anyone was yelling or whispering...what matters is how the youngster perceived it...and she said it made her nervous.
Bottom line.


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 3, 2010, 8:17 PM
Post #55 of 76 (1025 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Man, Fast and popsjumper, I know you are disagreeing with each other but I have to say I am heartened that at least coming from the same place of looking out for newer jumpers, if coming across differently and same passion for the sport. (Haha sorry I am in a sappy mood. But legitimately, thanks for all you more experienced jumpers do for us newbies.)

Pops- It did make me nervous. I'd guess that many/most new A-license-ish level jumpers are more easily made nervous by situations that wouldn't phase someone with you or D's experience. It was the first exit I have fully "tumbled" in quite a few jumps, because I *did* respond with nerves and rushed it a bit. But I don't think it caused me to have a mal and cutaway (not saying that -you- believe I am implying that either-- just don't want any miscommunication as to my beliefs or intents with regard to even mentioning it). Was just relating the chronology and it stuck in my mind as it was obviously a memorable jump sequence and did have some stressors (things that wouldn't bother a more experienced person- but were notable to me) and a lot of firsts.

OTOH, sometimes I legitimately do have to get my head outta my ass, newb or no, it is *not* a forgiving sport (but it is nice to have the transition with instructors, then coaches, then mentors etc. so that you have some gradual transfer of responsibility, though ultimately it is yours when it comes down to it from jump one, you know what i mean).

I think you both make good points, and it's a balance of a culture where people realize that a new jumper might see things different than an experienced one, and think about how words are used at crucial times, but also a situation where newer jumpers like me also have to get used to things and learn how to make safe decisions and think quick regardless of what others might be deciding or doing- keep each other safe ya know?

Anyways I'll butt out here, just wanted to say I legitimately appreciate that I think you are both coming from the same place of wanting to make sure jumpers stay safe, and yes, what I share as my perceptions on here might be seen very differently by someone with more experience, and multiple viewpoints are always helpful in my book!
blue skies to you both~ R

EDIT-- I want to apologize for my first post as well, I was fresh off the adrenaline of a cutaway and finally met my goal of getting my A license within the season, and was trying to convey an intense situation. I did use the term "the 'go' idiots" simply since I am so used to hearing/reading that and it's an understood term/phenomena.

Please accept my general apology for the harsh term used when the situation probably did not warrant it. Sometimes you obviously say things online you really would not want to say to someone's face- I dislike catching myself at that!

Like I said, I drove double distance and paid double (due to more coaching over solos on the ISP/A progression) when choosing to transfer to my current home dz at SK, so I certainly don't have any qualms about respect for student safety there.

All dzs have their strong & weak points of course, but I really do think that communication at exit time and in aircraft is an important safety issue and personal issue relevant to every person and dz, not just one place since I assume we have all been on loads with mis-communication due to noise when spotting or preparing for an exit, yelling of "go" when someone is spotting, etc. It's not a dz specific issue, it's a skydiving issue. Maybe a topic for another thread even. But yeah, wanted to clear that up on a re-read of my own harsh words. Doesn't change my own opinion on communication and word use in the plane at crucial times, but I am not mad or blaming anyone, and didn't need to say it like that at all..


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 3, 2010, 9:04 PM)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 3, 2010, 8:23 PM
Post #56 of 76 (1021 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Doesn't really matter whether anyone was yelling or whispering...what matters is how the youngster perceived it...and she said it made her nervous.
Bottom line.

Is your point that.... no one should ever shout "GO" because it may be perceived wrong and hurt someones feelings or make them nervous?

I'm not an advocate for shouting anything at anyone..., but this IS jumping out of airplanes not a social book club. (not at all directed to the OP)


trig78  (B License)

Nov 3, 2010, 8:55 PM
Post #57 of 76 (1012 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Doesn't really matter whether anyone was yelling or whispering...what matters is how the youngster perceived it...and she said it made her nervous.
Bottom line.

+1

A girl + begginer + nervous. No need to make her more nervous. That resulted in her saving her life so No, nobody should say GO! Go when ready maybe Wink


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 4, 2010, 3:27 AM
Post #58 of 76 (978 views)
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In reply to:

... Go when ready maybe Wink

Actually that is a good call I had not thought about that but my first "lower"/3.5k h&p, the coach who was helping me knew i was nervous about it and i believe she said something like, "ok you can go when you're ready" when the green came on. and then, there i went. Wink

it was actually really reassuring that she said that, even though i saw the light come on and was already in position by the door at yellow-- so, it wasn't even meant to necessarily/primarily remind me of the status of the light, so much as just checking in w/ me as a newer jumper and never having done a "low" h&p till that one, she knew i was nervous and communicated what was going on and made me feel confident in making the decision of how and when to exit (and i didn't hesitate, i was ready so i went!)


Fast  (D 28237)

Nov 4, 2010, 7:57 AM
Post #59 of 76 (960 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Hey Derrick-- did the reserve freebag come down too? Ever find it? J had the canopy when they picked me up in the cart, but I forgot to ask about the bag!?

And do you happen to know the answer to the most important question of the week- what liquor does my reserve re-packer/life saver enjoy drinking? :) Bought way too many different six packs today... Capital Oktoberfest, Spotted Cow, Fat Tire, Dogfish Head, and one or two local ones that the beer man recommended. Thus, I hope you are prepared to celebrate the last "official" Pac/season weekend with me Smile

And btw-- thanks for looking out, and thanks for tolerating my words that come faster than I can think them over sometimes *foot in mouth* and answering my million hyper newb questions at times. I think over time one mellows out a bit.. I hope Angelic

That rig has a skyhook, the freebag was attached to the main.

I have no idea cause he isn't my rigger. Smile

Yeah it's ok, part of the game WinkCool


fcajump  (D 15598)

Nov 4, 2010, 8:18 AM
Post #60 of 76 (951 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

What most folks do at my DZ, is to tap the spotter and point to the green light. A nod of the head from the spotter acknowledges that the pilot has turned it on.

Beyond that, for the most part, the spotter is left to their own judgment, especially when they're spotting for themselves or just a few others (i.e. a long spot won't hose the last out)

Much nicer way to assist the spotter and not pressure them.

To me, the only time one should shout (commanding) to "exit" is when the pilot has ordered an evacuation.

As to the word "GO"... poor choice of word. (except maybe following "Ready" and "Set") It is too easily confused with "NO" which also might be said in an urgent commanding tone and need completely different actions.

At least SF_B seems good natured about the reception here. Cool

As to "haven't landed the 190"... at that wing loading, I am surprised that SF_B has ever actually landed anything >=190!!! Should just be floating around forever Tongue

I'd say that I'd jump with you when I'm next in Mil (never been there yet), but the dive would consist mostly of me looking up at you, and you wondering how anyone could fall that fast. Laugh

Blue ones,
JW


ksudiver87  (C 38895)

Nov 4, 2010, 9:07 AM
Post #61 of 76 (944 views)
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Re: [fcajump] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

See this whole thread is prime example why every DZ should own 182's. 5 left, 5 right go. we do go-arounds for the fun of it :) To assist everyone in this transition into a more peacful jump, I will buy your turbines for $500 a piece..you're welcome in advanceCool


jtnesbitt  (B 30189)

Nov 4, 2010, 9:24 AM
Post #62 of 76 (939 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

>>>...Go when ready maybe

That's essentially what the green light means. That's why at my home DZ we yell "Green light" just like fcajumps previously said. This way it lets the spotter know "hey the pilot says its cool to exit when you are ready." I actually like it when this happens as many time people spotting have their head out of the door and cannot see the light and/or flaps/slats config because they are looking down.

fcajumps also brought up the good point of "no" sounds a lot like "go." I once got forced out of a skyvan a mile before the spot because of this. We had a 9 way tube planned, the pilot knew it would take time to mock it up so he gave us the red early. As soon as we mocked it up i heard someone yell "ready!?" I knew the spot was wrong so i yelled "No!"

Needless to say since it was a tube that big I couldnt do anything to stop the exit Tongue


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 4, 2010, 11:15 AM
Post #63 of 76 (921 views)
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Re: [Fast] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Hey Derrick-- did the reserve freebag come down too? Ever find it? J had the canopy when they picked me up in the cart, but I forgot to ask about the bag!?

And do you happen to know the answer to the most important question of the week- what liquor does my reserve re-packer/life saver enjoy drinking? :) Bought way too many different six packs today... Capital Oktoberfest, Spotted Cow, Fat Tire, Dogfish Head, and one or two local ones that the beer man recommended. Thus, I hope you are prepared to celebrate the last "official" Pac/season weekend with me Smile

And btw-- thanks for looking out, and thanks for tolerating my words that come faster than I can think them over sometimes *foot in mouth* and answering my million hyper newb questions at times. I think over time one mellows out a bit.. I hope Angelic

That rig has a skyhook, the freebag was attached to the main.

I have no idea cause he isn't my rigger. Smile

Yeah it's ok, part of the game WinkCool

Hehe- no wonder! It all makes sense now. I assumed the RSL beat me, but didn't even think about having one at the time, nor that it was actually a MARD (I knew the student rigs or some of them had skyhooks since John showed me to check it on the 240, but I didn't think about the transition/rentals having one) Nice!

No wonder the silver pull felt strangely easy with an instantaneous reserve lol. Yay for skyhooks (and for not losing gear Tongue)

Thanks again.

Well for now I bought beer, and will inquire this weekend if he comes out


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 5, 2010, 3:39 PM
Post #64 of 76 (875 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Most places you won't get a go around on a low pass, with a full load going otherwise up to full altitude. Don't want to get out on the particular pass given?... No problem, you just ride all the way to the top is all. True go-around though on an in-transit courtesy set-up low-pass? Probably not going to happen, even if you did want to ask for it. - Just FWIW.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Nov 5, 2010, 3:40 PM)


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 5, 2010, 5:00 PM
Post #65 of 76 (862 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Most places you won't get a go around on a low pass, with a full load going otherwise up to full altitude. Don't want to get out on the particular pass given?... No problem, you just ride all the way to the top is all. True go-around though on an in-transit courtesy set-up low-pass? Probably not going to happen, even if you did want to ask for it. - Just FWIW.

Hehe yeah.. you'd just go all the way to altitude wouldn't you. Hoenstly though, if there was a reason for the hop n pop (ex. for me it was canopy control pre-A) or a student without a freefall coach, a go-around seems warranted if for example (as stated) cloud cover, other aircraft, etc.) but i guess in my OP, I wouldn't have wanted or needed a go-around, the spot was good, timing was fine Smile


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 6, 2010, 10:36 AM
Post #66 of 76 (832 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if there was a reason for the hop n pop (ex. for me it was canopy control pre-A) or a student without a freefall coach, a go-around seems warranted

Again, still - don't count on it. You're probably still NOT going to get another completely go-around 2nd fresh pass. Again - if for any reason you did not feel safe to exit, needed/wanted a "better" spot, and/or asked for a go-around even under the circumstances you are citing - chances are the pilot is going to red-light you and take you to the top with the rest of the load. SOP. You would simply then go to the top, and figure it out again for your next jump.

None of your reasons cited warrant a "HAVE TO EXIT, no matter what" - no matter how many (low) passes it may take on THAT PARTICULAR LOAD to get it done.

Your single hop-n-pop is not all that critical that it would absolutely HAVE TO BE DONE on that load, just because you wanted (or you had planned) to, in either of the situations you cite either. What makes you think either of those jump scenarios are so important that they would absolutely HAVE TO get done on THAT LOAD?

Once again - You would just then in either of those scenarios still - take it all the way up if you did not like the (in transit with an otherwise full load going all the way up) pass (or the spot) given - and then once you are back down - figure it out from there. NBD.

FWIW.
Blue Skies,
-Grant


pinkfairy  (C 85665)

Nov 6, 2010, 1:38 PM
Post #67 of 76 (824 views)
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Re: [billvon] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It might have contributed, but bad body position will by no means ensure a problem. I've seen horrendous body positions on SL and AFF students, and they get reasonable openings 99% of the time.

Ditto.

Student gear and beginner's gear is pretty forgiving to that, for a reason. And that's the reason why wingsuiters like moderate planform canopies like the Spectre or the Pilot. They want something that keeps flying straight even with linetwists.

But mals can definitely happen because of bad body position.

Good job saving your life. I have one cutaway, and exactly the same kind of experience of it as you: "Wow, this was EASY!" You are trained to do it, by your instructors and yourself, and the gear works.

If you don't get out on green, the plane will have to do a second pass for you, but I agree that shouting "get out!" to a new jumper is probably not the best thing.

Now buy beer and jump more!

Cool


skyflower_bloom  (A 59229)

Nov 6, 2010, 9:31 PM
Post #68 of 76 (802 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Most places you won't get a go around on a low pass, with a full load going otherwise up to full altitude. Don't want to get out on the particular pass given?... No problem, you just ride all the way to the top is all. True go-around though on an in-transit courtesy set-up low-pass? Probably not going to happen, even if you did want to ask for it. - Just FWIW.

This may not have been intended for me-- but on the jump I described, while I mention at first I couldn't see the airport at what I felt was the usual place and time, I quickly adjusted and made an effort to glance back to the light, out the door, and repeat. I happened to apparently miss the one time the light went yellow to green, because I was in the "looking out for traffic below and airport in sight" mode rather than the "look at the yellow light and see if it is green yet" mode- make sense?

So I agree the topic of when a go-around is given, and specifically on a hop and pop or pre-A/student jump, in the case I initially described, it was a matter of several seconds and I would have been out the door within less than 5 seconds whether or not someone said "go!" I don't think I could or would have gone differentially faster due to someone telling me, since I was still processing and maneuvering and went as soon as I could, but thinking I needed to go even faster than that for some reason prompted me to rush-- maybe more accurate to say exit more poorly/"feeling" more rushed, since I make no statement that I actually left prior to when I would have otherwise felt safe leaving *on this particular jump.*

Now again, this is my perception as a newbie.. but based on prior experience so far (which again granted, is not the same as an experienced person's, but which does give me some frame of reference), as well as the experience of comparing perceived events to the occurrence and time on my debrief videos over the course of AFF and ISP/coach as often as possible, to get a sense of these things to avoid sensory overload caused time distortion)

So yeah- it is a valid topic- I just don;t want you to think that I for some reason intended any hesitation beyond feeling safe and being in position, I did not feel that it was a problematic spot, planned to exit, and did exit. I don't know that I could think of a very likely situation at this point in my career that I would encounter that would have me asking for a go-around on a H&P, nor have I seen such situation!! But then again I have only thirty-some jumps.. and don't doubt it is both possible and legitimate in rare circumstances to choose not to jump and/or request a go-around.. guess it depends on DZ policy and the pilot, when a jumper has "missed" their opportunity and when a go around is done and for whom/under what conditions.

So OOC, you think if you actually had a problem with the low spot, they'd just send you to full altitude and later charge you the difference in the cost of the jump ticket?? Huh never thought of that.. *shrug*


(This post was edited by skyflower_bloom on Nov 6, 2010, 9:32 PM)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 29, 2010, 7:29 PM
Post #69 of 76 (714 views)
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Re: [skyflower_bloom] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think you'd get a go around at my DZ if you're a solo hop & pop. That's asking a bit much IMO. I also don't think you should ever expect to get one either. I think you will have plenty of time on most jump runs (even hop & pop jump runs) to exit one person. I'm not saying you took too long, just stating that if you feel rushed as a solo hop and pop then you have something you need to work on (we all have those).

I'm in the habit of saying "green light" when the light goes green. Generally people only start yelling "go" when someone has been standing around for a while but that's usually some fun jumping 4 way who feel that it's super critical that their position in the door is perfect (even though it isn't). If you're standing in the door for 15 seconds (and the winds aren't absolutely honking) you can expect people to tell you to get out or get out of the way. Students not hop and popping (at my dz) would normally be going after fun jumpers and before the tandems though and tandems always get a go around if the need it or want it AFAIK.

I had my first cutaway on jump 12, I had already downsized from a 280 to a 260 to a 240 to a 220 and that was my first on a 200. I'm 185 out the door though so WL wasn't an issue and I've always been pretty good at canopy stuff. I think they needed the bigger canopies for other students. I spun myself up doing the yellow card "hard 90 / hard 180" drill because I did it wrong. Mostly I swore a lot, cut away using a method (one hand either side) I'd never been taught, practiced or even really thought about and stood up my landing. I even managed to save my handles through dumb luck.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Nov 29, 2010, 7:31 PM)


airborne47  (A 43475)

Nov 30, 2010, 7:22 AM
Post #70 of 76 (630 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Should have put this in sooner but forgot where i read it.
You said something earlier about wanting info for emergency exits.
I don't have experience to state things as fact. But one thing that was told to me that made sence was to head dive on emergency exits.
The reason being the aircrafts tail could be dropping from a stall or roll.
And that it better to take a hit to the body or limbs then your head.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Nov 30, 2010, 8:16 AM
Post #71 of 76 (621 views)
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Re: [airborne47] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Should have put this in sooner but forgot where i read it.
You said something earlier about wanting info for emergency exits.
I don't have experience to state things as fact. But one thing that was told to me that made sence was to head dive on emergency exits.
The reason being the aircrafts tail could be dropping from a stall or roll.
And that it better to take a hit to the body or limbs then your head.

Haven't been there... just thinking it through it would depend on the nature of the emergency...

Stall/spin during jump-run at alt. (a couple friends of mine went through this in completely different situations) - you may have trouble getting to the door and/or away from the aircraft (one was pinned to the underside of the wing for a couple rotations). So yes, flying in any manner that gets you clear of the spinning mess (not to mention props) would be best. Use the altitude to get clear, but don't loose track of what you have left. I've heard arguments for opening high or waiting until lower... For myself, I think once I was SURE I was clear of plane (wreckage?) and other jumpers, I would pull as high as possible to give myself best possible clearance/time/space to deal with whatever transpired next. But this varies considerably depending on your experience and what is going on.

On the other extreme... an engine out on a twin where the pilot is holding it flat/stable for you to bail at 2k, I would do a quick normal head-up exit into the wind and deploy main.

I believe everyone that is licensed should be comfortable doing a fast dive-away or clear-n-pull exit on short notice. If you're not, practice... its like practicing any other EP's.

JW


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 30, 2010, 11:41 AM
Post #72 of 76 (579 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you're standing in the door for 15 seconds (and the winds aren't
>absolutely honking) you can expect people to tell you to get out or get
>out of the way.

The place to discuss that is in the ground, not in the door of the airplane. Imagine, for example, if someone on the outside realizes they have a gear problem (i.e. main container open and they are holding it closed) and the people inside screaming "GO!" inspires someone on the inside to push everyone out the door. That could turn a gear problem into a fatality.

Or there may be a load organizer trying to pry a low timer's hand off someone else's cutaway handle, or they may be trying to get the door open another half an inch so that the floaters don't lose skin at exit time. They may have a very good reason for taking longer - and you don't know what it is.

If you're angry that someone is taking long in the door, keep it to yourself for a few minutes until you're on the ground - then have the discussion.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 30, 2010, 9:45 PM
Post #73 of 76 (531 views)
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Re: [billvon] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Larger groups definitely mean that there are more possibile scenarios that will delay exit. I agree that shouting at people isn't the best solution, especially when they're a lower time jumper but honestly, there are plenty of people who would pay no attention to something said on the ground.

Scenarios for a solo jumper would be that there's traffic or industrial haze they're waiting to clear or maybe they see an issue with the plane. Personally, if i were presented with these scenarios, I'd be telling people in the plane that there's an issue and what it is, not just standing in the door dumbly (no, I don't mean stupidly). I think there's a big difference between standing in the door (I meant inside), without action or indication of a problem and actively reporting a problem or even being in a group that is having some issue.

I'm not sure it really matters who yells what when you're already outside the plane anyway, I'm not sure I could hear at all let alone make out the message. Obviously that's why shouting "no" and "go" are bad because they're easily mistaken. If the pilot turned off the light, how would you retrieve someone who was outside and trying to fix any of the issues you mentioned? Probably a lot of yelling but the people who actually visually or physically signalled that there was a reason to not go would be more successful, no?


noodlesR6  (A 6985)

Dec 4, 2010, 3:32 AM
Post #74 of 76 (474 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

Turn to the people in the plane, put your hand up, say "wait".

Oh shit, I'm not allowed to have an opinion, I have less than 10000 skydives.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 4, 2010, 3:54 AM
Post #75 of 76 (471 views)
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Re: [noodlesR6] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh shit, I'm not allowed to have an opinion, I have less than 10000 skydives.

Bad attitude, which also has nothing to do with this thread, other than you taking an opportunity to get in a cheap whine. Apparently you're still stinging from
This Thread
, where, at then-50-ish jumps, you were quite properly corrected by a few people for giving advice that, frankly, you simply were not yet qualified to give. A little extra humility would do you a world of good.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Dec 4, 2010, 3:59 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 4, 2010, 6:16 PM
Post #76 of 76 (184 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] First Cutaway, jump 30, and got my A too [In reply to] Can't Post

>but honestly, there are plenty of people who would pay no attention to
>something said on the ground.

Then they will pay even less attention in the air, when they are more occupied.

>Personally, if i were presented with these scenarios, I'd be telling people
>in the plane that there's an issue and what it is, not just standing in the
>door dumbly . . .

I'd rather the person continue spotting so he can do a good job, and can climb out as soon as it's clear. (But if he has time to communicate what he's doing, that's fine too.)

>If the pilot turned off the light, how would you retrieve someone who was
>outside and trying to fix any of the issues you mentioned?

If you are not in the group _and_ you have time/access to signal them safely - get the person's attention and point at the light. They may ignore you and exit anyway, or they may see the light and exit anyway. Or they might get back in.

If you are in the group - get back in the airplane. That's an unambiguous signal.



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