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Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive

 

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lurch  (D 27583)

Oct 13, 2010, 7:09 AM
Post #26 of 95 (1832 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps I am. I said what I said because to me their approach to the whole thing highlights what I see as being wrong with excessive branding and marketing. Their priority is that people's awareness of whatever event they've attached their name to should be dominated by awareness of redbull.

The insistent, constant pushing of the name brand itself makes me think that they do not care about the achievement, or the athletes or the people who helped make it happen or the passion involved, what they care about is that it makes you more aware of redbull. In this case the spacejump itself again comes secondary to how important it is to them that everybody knows redbull is doing a spacejump.

When Cheryl's effort was in the news, I couldn't have told you who or what was backing her without looking it up. Coverage of the effort was focused on the jump, the achievement. Mention of corporate sponsors, if any, was fairly discrete. If I wanted to know, I could know by looking, but it wasn't being shoved in my face every time I heard about it. What I heard was that a spacejump was (hopefully) being done.

Same goes for Fournier. I'm sure if he had sponsors their logos would be displayed on his gear but again, any and all information I encountered about it was focused on the jump itself, the priority was making people aware of the JUMP, not the name brand.

But this effort, look at the top of this page, it proves my point. The jump comes secondary to making sure everyone knows its the REDBULL spacejump. The focus isn't "There's another spacejump attempt in progress, historic new record effort, *sponsored by redbull*

The focus is "Its the REDBULL spacejump" with getting the damn namebrand itself in our faces as the first, foremost and dominant priority. They have been so successful at making that clear that I'd bet you can't find one mention of this effort, anywhere in global media or topical discussion like this one in which REDBULL isn't the single biggest theme attached to it and mentioned first, before anything else about it is said.

I'm sure they show a lot about it, because the more it is mentioned in the media the more opportunities are created to shove the name REDBULL in your face yet again. I'd love to see this or any such effort succeed, I just wish they'd do it without taking such obnoxious advantage of maximum possible opportunity for intrusive and aggressive marketing.

They're not doing this for the achievement and hoping by backing it people will happen to also drink more redbull cause they're cool enough to be doing this, they're doing this because the specific intention is to exploit people's excitement about a spacejump and transfer that to making them excited about redbull.

To me, wicked cool things like spacejumps should be about the achievement, not about the name brand thats promoting it.
-B


absane  (A 58418)

Oct 13, 2010, 7:12 AM
Post #27 of 95 (1830 views)
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Re: [460] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess that explains why their website never updated.... :(


pirana  (D 30661)

Oct 13, 2010, 7:18 AM
Post #28 of 95 (1824 views)
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Re: [lurch] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm the kind of guy that strips the logos off his clothes or buys em without in the first place... insistent marketing jamming their names and logos in our faces just annoys the hell out of me.

I hear you on that. When I redid the body on my old Firebird I left all the insignia off. I knew what kind of car it was, and didn't care if others had to guess. Almost without exception people were anywhere from confused to negatively critical. It was as if a good without logos and brand marks was worht less to them.

I think it is just another manifestation of the hey-everybody-look-at-me syndrome.


460

Oct 13, 2010, 7:35 AM
Post #29 of 95 (1812 views)
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Re: [absane] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

I am the scientist volunteering to do the work on the sonic transition problem. There are a large number of people working in the background to make this sort of jump a safe reality. Imagine if the science of doing it was understood well enough that instead of going out to a DZ and making an exotic jump at 30000 feet that you could make a jump from more than 100000 feet.

Does anyone here know who Dan Hogan is? Was he Cheryl Stearns squeeze? Hogan wanted to settle out of court for millions of dollars but Red Bull didn't want to do that out of the fear of other lawsuits.


ChrisL  (C 35323)

Oct 13, 2010, 7:35 AM
Post #30 of 95 (1813 views)
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Re: [460] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In America, lawyers rule.

http://www.wired.com/...ull-cancels-stratos/

Is this the same Hogan guy who was was hooked up with Cheryl Stearns. Cheryl was interested in making the world's highest skydive (>103000 feet) but she never got that project off the ground.

Daniel Hogan = douche bag


460

Oct 13, 2010, 7:45 AM
Post #31 of 95 (1806 views)
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Re: [ChrisL] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Joe Kittinger, the current record holder for the highest skydive, may post on here to get some help from the jumper community regarding this guy. Please help.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Oct 13, 2010, 8:38 AM
Post #32 of 95 (1784 views)
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Re: [lurch] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

With Cheryl, it was about the jump.
With Fournier, it was about the jump.
With Baumgartner, its about promoting himself and redbull. Ugh.
-B

Certainly not what I understand about Fournier.


460

Oct 13, 2010, 8:43 AM
Post #33 of 95 (1782 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Cheryl never got funding to bring the project to fruition because she *did not* pursue the advertising angle for sponsors.

http://www.stratoquest.com/mission1.html


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 13, 2010, 8:44 AM
Post #34 of 95 (1780 views)
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Re: [lurch] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent post, and I am in agreement with much of what you say...but~

To be fair, Redbull is a just company promoting a product with a marketing strategy...that's it.

The 'athletes' are the ones prostituting themselves for the sake of that promotion.

Therein lies the slippery slope...who among us wouldn't make that deal, to not only get paid to do what we love to do, but also achieve a modicum of ego fueled star status doing it.

One one hand, I too get a bit weary seeing a red, silver & blue logo on every square inch of surface available...attached to participants of nearly every sport that interests me.

On the other hand, the $'s that corporation spends within those sports is working to make them much more mainstream than ever before...and to me that's a good thing.

The Redbull Air Races are a prime example, not only has the company 'created' a competition, they brought something of a unknown rarely televised 'sport type' mainstream...at many of the airshows I perform in, a Bull sponsored plane is actually a spectator draw used by the promoters to increase attendance much as they use the Thunderbirds or Blue Angles.

The promotion of this 'magic elixir' does have some side benefits for those other than the corporate stockholders and the athlete's they sponsor.

~Does the Bull go too far...'over the top' on some of this promotion?

That was somewhat a question addressed by a sports magazine a while back following the death of a well known B.A.S.E. jumper, killed during the filming of a sponsored SKI/B.A.S.E. jump.
It was a well researched and written article regarding the pressure to do 'stunts' for a corporation constantly demanding bigger and better from it's 'employees'.

The article quite fairly explored the question of how much is too much, from several angles...and basically put the responsibility back on the athletes to know their limits and to fit THAT within the corporate requirements, instead of allowing a corporate 'Mahogany Row' to dictate and pressure.

There was also a VERY interesting article in 'Outdoor' or 'Outside'...some such magazine, a couple months ago.
The author, who was covering the space jump gave some interesting insights on what he came to refer to as 'civilian space' and the marketing required to achieve it.

He explained accurately IMO how Felix is really nothing more than a handsome corporate image more concerned about the fact hair gel can't be used within the oxygen helmet, than with the real technical obstacles facing the attempt.

He interviewed Kittinger at Perris and came away with the impression Joe was being paid to be there more as a figure head than an 'advisor' as they were saying, because any advise he gave was laughed at...and maybe rightfully so, but still ~ promotion angle FIRST.

The part of the article that really gave me pause was when the author interviewed some on the engineering team associated with the attempt...that's when the term 'civilian space' was coined. The engineer 'team' was tasked with the design and production of the life support system and was having to do it on a strict budget.

The need was to, because of fiscal constraints get it right the first time with minimal cost and testing...something NASA and 'government space' doesn't do.

The thing I wonder most about the space jump dog & pony show is just WHEN the Bull knew things were going sideways regarding a law suit...it would be a PRICELESS act of marketing magic if they knew this was coming a while back but continued the promotion anyway because the advertising return on dollars spent is off the charts.

It is a BRILLANT profit strategy to stretch this thing out as long as possible in the same way the world series always seems to go 7 games...Wink...more exposure means more MONEY!

The argument can be made by both sponsor and athlete that they are using the other as the pawn for profit...so rest assured that nothing will change until it no longer becomes 'profitable' for one or the other to continue down this path.

Until then, the SHOW must go on! Sly


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Oct 13, 2010, 9:12 AM)


lurch  (D 27583)

Oct 13, 2010, 8:53 AM
Post #35 of 95 (1768 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

???
I'm curious, what do you mean? Was he self-promoting in some way I hadn't noticed? Or was it like a french nationalism thing? I only ask that because it was being publicized as "le grand saut", and given that the majority of people hearing about it are not likely to speak french, I figured maybe he was trying to make some kind of point... on the other hand, he IS french, perfectly natural to title your effort in your native language. Given how much effort he sank into trying to make it happen, I got the impression it was all about the jump and nothing else.


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 13, 2010, 8:57 AM
Post #36 of 95 (1763 views)
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Re: [460] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am the scientist volunteering to do the work on the sonic transition problem. There are a large number of people working in the background to make this sort of jump a safe reality.



Did Eugene Andreev who holds the official FAI record for the longest free-fall parachute jump (without drogue chute) after falling for 80,380 ft from an altitude of 83,523 ft, break the sound barrier...or does one need to go higher?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 13, 2010, 9:01 AM
Post #37 of 95 (1759 views)
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Re: [lurch] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

>The insistent, constant pushing of the name brand itself makes me
>think that they do not care about the achievement . . .

They likely do; a successful jump will get them more publicity than an unsuccessful one.

I have no problem with people using sponsors. Here in skydiving, DZ's sponsor Nationals all the time, partly to increase visibility of their DZ. I've been on a dozen or so demos where I made a lot of money from Tmobile, or the Vegas Chamber of Commerce, or MTV Sports, or KGB-FM. They didn't give us all that money for the love of the sport - they gave us that money so people would think about their brand/product in a certain way. And I didn't feel like I was "shoving it in anyone's face." I felt like I was being paid to perform a service, one I had a great time providing.

>The focus is "Its the REDBULL spacejump" with getting the damn
>namebrand itself in our faces as the first, foremost and dominant priority.

Of course. Feel free to ignore the branding if you like. When I think about my achievements in skydiving, I think about the 300-way, not the GoFast 300-way (which it was.) I think about the 400-way, not about the Royal Thai Sky Celebration (which it was) or Singha Beer (who was a huge sponsor.)

Likewise, if you prefer to think about this as the "REDBULL space jump" go ahead. If you want to think about it as the new high-altitude skydiving record, you can do that too.

>wicked cool things like spacejumps should be about the achievement, not
>about the name brand thats promoting it.

That's great! Go for it.


lurch  (D 27583)

Oct 13, 2010, 9:23 AM
Post #38 of 95 (1745 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree with you 100%, man.
Sad thing is, if I were approached by redbull and offered a spot as a sponsored athlete with them, most likely I'd take it despite my distaste for the whole concept. I love to fly wingsuits more than anything else, and being paid to fly around the world and do my thing would be the ultimate. As it stands now, I've been in all kinds of cool events and records, for which I paid a small fortune.

I might even have enough distinction myself to have something of value to offer the redbull people... I've taken the long-flight thing to such an extreme I recently pulled a 4 minute skydive from standard altitude in an ordinary production-model S-Bird suit, and so far as I know I'm the first and only to be able to do that, rumors of Tony's exotic prototypes notwithstanding.

If theres anyone else out there who can do that I haven't heard of em and I figure theres a good chance I quietly set a new world record with that flight. But I don't really know how to exploit that and I'd feel a bit foolish if I tried to make a big deal out of it, so chances are it will pass completely unnoticed by the wingsuit community, the skydiving community and the public at large, and I'm ok with that. As achievements go, its a triviality, and in 5 more years there'll be dozens of wingsuit people doing it.

I specifically do not seek publicity for the stuff I've done in skydiving because I don't want to be one of THOSE guys. I'm more interested in DOING it than I am in being famous for it.

I've sometimes considered a career change, trying to get into advertising specifically so I could make deliberately NOT-obnoxious commercials. These days marketing people have become so extremely hyperfocused on pounding their products into our faces I refuse to watch TV or listen to the radio because I can't stand either, anymore. The focus on using the medium not for entertainment but as a vehicle for pushing their products drives me batshit.
-B


lurch  (D 27583)

Oct 13, 2010, 9:32 AM
Post #39 of 95 (1736 views)
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Re: [billvon] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, I understand and like your take on it, I just see it as too far "over the top" the way Twardo put it. I mean, -I- don't see it as "The REDBULL spacejump". I didn't choose to label and publicize it that way, THEY did. I'd be a lot more excited and enthusiastic about it if it was more about the jump and less about redbull.

To cast it through your lens, I have no problem with people using sponsors either. I just find it annoying when it seems to be more about the sponsors using the people.

-B


Amazon  (D License)

Oct 13, 2010, 9:36 AM
Post #40 of 95 (1734 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

DUUUUDE I just want to do the jumpSmileSmileSmile

I want to see if I could get thermal as well as do the really GO fast thing.

I really LOVE falling in that little tube of air that forms at speed when you are on your head trying to get as little air resistance as you can....

just thinkin bout it.. I get tingly all overSmile


hangdiver  (D License)

Oct 13, 2010, 9:37 AM
Post #41 of 95 (1744 views)
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Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

It's to bad some person with more money than god doesn't to do it for the jump itself.

Branson isn't that crazy but Fosset was.
It's sad he's not around anymore but you know what they say about pilots.

The bullshit has put many good athletes in the dirt(read my sig line)but I suppose some of us are luckier than others, me included.

I think what pissed off Hogan was the same thing that pissed off Robert Kearns, the intermittent windshield wiper guy.
I've had patents stolen, I know the feeling.

To have some corporation tell you to fuck off then circumvent your idea feels like you've had part of your soul ripped out.

I've learned it's better to just let it go than to have it make you crazy.

I really don't believe in lawsuits but sometimes it's the only way to bitch slap a corporate thief.

And yeah, a brilliant marketing ploy by the bull...


Just my .02


Premier Remster  (C License)

Oct 13, 2010, 9:46 AM
Post #42 of 95 (1730 views)
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Re: [lurch] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
??
I'm curious, what do you mean? Was he self-promoting in some way I hadn't noticed

There's a general feeling that his plans were never real. All his fuck ups, his delays, were nothing more than his way o keep money coming in from sponsors and advertising. There were also some possibly dubious statements he made that he had support from military that, apparently, were BS.

And it's not really a anti French thing. Most of the criticism has come from France and French speaking individuals.


heavydude  (A 53326)

Oct 13, 2010, 12:22 PM
Post #43 of 95 (1637 views)
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Re: [460] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that the Skyride guys again ?


base283  (D 15343)

Oct 13, 2010, 12:57 PM
Post #44 of 95 (1616 views)
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Re: [lurch] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The insistent, constant pushing of the name brand itself makes me think that they do not care about the achievement, or the athletes or the people who helped make it happen or the passion involved, what they care about is that it makes you more aware of redbull. In this case the spacejump itself again comes secondary to how important it is to them that everybody knows redbull is doing a spacejump.

Apply this to your thinking.
Quote:
The Taurus™ World Stunt Awards honor the movie industry's unsung heroes, the world's best stunt professionals. They risk their lives to perform the most daring stunts that bring action and excitement to the movie-going public.

The Taurus™ awards go to the industry's best and brightest stunt people for extraordinary performances in feature films. Selected and voted by the members of the Taurus™ World Stunt Academy, who are all in the Stunt industry themselves, the winners are not only recognized for their contribution to the film industry, but also honored by their own peer group, the Academy members.

In addition, all are eligible to apply for financial assistance from the Taurus™ World Stunt AwardsTM Foundation. Members that have been hurt or disabled in a work related accident are eligible and are encouraged to log onto the website and fill out an application for the Taurus Foundation.

The Taurus™ World Stunt Awards were envisioned by Red Bull Energy Drink CEO Dietrich Mateschitz and benefits the Taurus™ World Stunt Awards Foundation.
Take care,
space


base283  (D 15343)

Oct 13, 2010, 1:15 PM
Post #45 of 95 (1598 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did Eugene Andreev who holds the official FAI record for the longest free-fall parachute jump (without drogue chute) after falling for 80,380 ft from an altitude of 83,523 ft, break the sound barrier...or does one need to go higher?

He didnt do the trans sonic thingy.
Needed to go higher.
Take care,
space


lurch  (D 27583)

Oct 13, 2010, 1:17 PM
Post #46 of 95 (1596 views)
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Re: [base283] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, now THATS cool. I definitely stand corrected, and retract my earlier remarks. The redbull people just got some major cool points in my book for this.
-B


Southern_Man  (C License)

Oct 13, 2010, 1:45 PM
Post #47 of 95 (1571 views)
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Re: [Remster] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
??
I'm curious, what do you mean? Was he self-promoting in some way I hadn't noticed

There's a general feeling that his plans were never real. All his fuck ups, his delays, were nothing more than his way o keep money coming in from sponsors and advertising. There were also some possibly dubious statements he made that he had support from military that, apparently, were BS.

And it's not really a anti French thing. Most of the criticism has come from France and French speaking individuals.

Bingo. Some people figure if he was really serious about the attempt he might have made some efforts towards planning practical details, like, you know, having made some arrangement to get helium to the airport or something.;


BMichaeli  (C License)

Oct 13, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #48 of 95 (1565 views)
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Re: [460] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

not sure how accurate this is but i do remember reading somewhere that Kittinger only signed on to the program because of the science and medical advancements that this program was looking at. the article (which i can't find at the moment) made it seem like their was an overall goal more then just breaking the record that scientists could apply towards real world applications. this is why i supported the project. red bull also has the financial capabilities to pull off something of this magnitude. Hogan should back off and let the experiment take place he was not the first to come up with this idea if anything the credit should be given to Andre-Jacques Garnerin for being the first person to jump plus he jumped out of balloon (got that name of of Wikipedia not sure if it is right)


460

Oct 13, 2010, 2:00 PM
Post #49 of 95 (1552 views)
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Re: [BMichaeli] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

The team is highly interested in taking this further than just the record jump. The science and engineering are advancing noticeably in this attempt. I can't say any more about it though.

I attempted to garner support to do the jump back in the 1990s but I was terrible at raising money. I don't care who gets it, but someone needs to break the record and define what is and what is not safe for doing this jump in a repeatable fashion. Imagine space diving as a recreational activity, albeit an expensive one.

In reply to:
not sure how accurate this is but i do remember reading somewhere that Kittinger only signed on to the program because of the science and medical advancements that this program was looking at. the article (which i can't find at the moment) made it seem like their was an overall goal more then just breaking the record that scientists could apply towards real world applications. this is why i supported the project. red bull also has the financial capabilities to pull off something of this magnitude. Hogan should back off and let the experiment take place he was not the first to come up with this idea if anything the credit should be given to Andre-Jacques Garnerin for being the first person to jump plus he jumped out of balloon (got that name of of Wikipedia not sure if it is right)


BMichaeli  (C License)

Oct 13, 2010, 4:14 PM
Post #50 of 95 (1505 views)
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Re: [460] Red Bull Stratos - Space Dive [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
T Imagine space diving as a recreational activity, albeit an expensive one.

Star Trek Style with self packing chutes would be awesome!


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