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Cameras/coaching

 


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Sep 29, 2010, 9:32 AM
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Cameras/coaching Can't Post

Over this past weekend, I observed several new wingsuiters wearing cameras for their first flights. Cameras were mostly small format, two were bigger/dedicated camera rigs. One was a mudflap mount.

From the perspective of an "instructor" (really a coach at this point), do you allow "students" to wear cameras when coaching them into a new discipline (whether it's CRW, Wingsuiting, FF, etc)?

Reasons for, ideas opposed please?


Zymurdoo  (D 16833)

Sep 29, 2010, 10:38 AM
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As an experienced camera flier, I never even thought of taking a camera on my first (or any so far) wing suit jumps. I know that it distracts my focus on the task at hand, when I have any camera on my head. I would use the same thought process if I were to cross over to the dark side and start freeflying. Less distraction = faster learning curve.

I have been thinking of adding a small format camera to my Z1 to shoot inside video on RW jumps and would probably wear it on future wing suit jumps at that time.

On a recent Scuba trip in Catalina I had two or three incidents involving an underwater camera. One of which I found myself down current of the dive boat, almost out of air, without a snorkel (long story) and camera/strap tangled in the drift line. I decided at that moment that it just wasn't worth the BS to bring a camera along on something that I wasn't already comfortable with.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 29, 2010, 1:01 PM
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I got into an argument last year with a new wingsuiter. He got the FFC from me but decided to get coaching jumps the next day from another wingsuiter (BMI), who was also going to let him jump a Blade Crazy. I had to go to the DZO over that one, no way was I going to let him jump a Blade he barely made my grade for the FFC as it was. Then he was going to jump camera for his first wingsuit jump, we persuaded him out of that but he still jumped with a big ass empty sidemount bracket Crazy

For others, some people I suppose I would let jump a camera, we've also had people with 3k jumps on stilettos. But on the whole, I'd much rather you jump a decent canopy, decent suit, and no camera. At least for the first few flights Wink


stratostar  (Student)

Sep 29, 2010, 3:43 PM
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Re: [DSE] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

We used to have a saying in & around the sport....

One new thing at a time. The fact that you even have to ask, shows fucked and stupid today's new bread of dgit's we have now, but hey at least we'll have a lot of cool footage for the next five faces of death.

Answer: not no, but hell NO!


(This post was edited by stratostar on Sep 29, 2010, 8:59 PM)


monkycndo  (D License)

Sep 29, 2010, 4:23 PM
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Took up a couple new birds recently for their FFC. Both had GoPros. Both were asked to remove them, which they did without argument. Depending on how heads up they were on their first jump, I *might* let them wear it on their next coached jump.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Sep 29, 2010, 4:30 PM
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Re: [monkycndo] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Took up a couple new birds recently for their FFC. Both had GoPros. Both were asked to remove them, which they did without argument. Depending on how heads up they were on their first jump, I *might* let them wear it on their next coached jump.

That's because you and I are such diplomats.Tongue (Assuming you're talking about two of the birds we took up at Moab).
And it was cool; we explained our reasons (one thing at a time, not being able to catch anything anyway, distraction factor) and they accepted the reasoning behind it.
Obviously I'm opposed to cameras on any "firsts" but it seems we're in the minority.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 29, 2010, 7:57 PM
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Re: [DSE] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
From the perspective of an "instructor" (really a coach at this point), do you allow "students" to wear cameras when coaching them into a new discipline (whether it's CRW, Wingsuiting, FF, etc)?

With experience in FF coaching, it would depend on the jumper. If they were an experienced camera flyer who wanted to wear video, I would suggest that it's a waste of time, but it's their dime.

If it was a jumper with less than a couple hundred camera jumps, I would tell them to leave it on the ground.

In either case, they're not going to be able to get any usable footage, as they'll be working on holding a heading, and I'll be somewhere else trying to get whatever they're doing wrong on video. With just the two of us in the sky, doing to seperate things (they're learning and I'm teaching) you're going to get a lot of blue sky.

Not surprisingly, anyone with any sort of skill or understanding of camera flying will realize that there's no real footage to be had, and they don't even attempt to bring a camera.

As for the others, there's something about that moment where you realize you're coaching an idiot that just makes you want to pay your own slot, and jump with somebody else. Or do a solo.


michalm21  (Student)

Sep 30, 2010, 8:32 AM
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not a wingsuit instructor, only a uspa coach here Laugh
but I would prefer no cameras if ever teaching wingsuiting (or any new stuff really)

even with few hundred camera jumps (where i finally get to the point of getting slightly better and better footage Wink) i chose to take my camera helmet off when trying new things in the sky.
the additional possible distraction is completely unnecessary. my $0.02


(This post was edited by michalm21 on Sep 30, 2010, 8:33 AM)


ataltitude  (C 1009)

Sep 30, 2010, 1:28 PM
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Re: [michalm21] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

I fully agree with no camera on first any thing. At the end of the day, as you guys all have said, you need to focusing on what you are doing, not trying to get footage.

Plus 9 times out of ten, your coach will have footage of you to show how bad or good you were.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 30, 2010, 6:55 PM
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In reply to:
Over this past weekend, I observed several new wingsuiters wearing cameras for their first flights.

This is sad. We're losing it and today's coaches and instructors are failing to stop the flood.


rhys  (D 95)

Oct 1, 2010, 1:15 AM
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Re: [DSE] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Over this past weekend, I observed several new wingsuiters wearing cameras for their first flights. Cameras were mostly small format, two were bigger/dedicated camera rigs. One was a mudflap mount.

From the perspective of an "instructor" (really a coach at this point), do you allow "students" to wear cameras when coaching them into a new discipline (whether it's CRW, Wingsuiting, FF, etc)?

Reasons for, ideas opposed please?

I don't think this subject is worth discussing in any detail.

Taking a camera on the first wingsuit jump is stupid, on aff stage 1 is stupid, first freefly jump... stupid, first 4 way... guess what;


STUPID.

I find it hard to find a reason that comes close to reasonable for someone to take a camera on thier first anything. That attitude is akin to those that want to be a champion swooper at 100 jumps.

Take you time people.


(This post was edited by rhys on Oct 1, 2010, 1:15 AM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 1, 2010, 7:17 AM
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Re: [DSE] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are in the minority then I am with you. I whole heartily disagree and discourage cameras of any sort on firsts.
A good example is when you are driving in a car at night and you are attempting to locate a number on a house or mailbox, what is the first thing you instinctively do? A) Lower the radio. because you mind is telling you it wants all focus to be on vision and not on hearing, (not necessary to locate the number). Take this example and it is important to focus on one thing at a time with no distractions.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 1, 2010, 8:27 AM
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Re: [rhys] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think this subject is worth discussing in any detail.

Taking a camera on the first wingsuit jump is stupid, on aff stage 1 is stupid, first freefly jump... stupid, first 4 way... guess what;


STUPID.

I find it hard to find a reason that comes close to reasonable for someone to take a camera on thier first anything. That attitude is akin to those that want to be a champion swooper at 100 jumps.

Take you time people.

One would think so, but if I need to have a reality check...here we are.
As mentioned, saw MANY FFCs with cameras. And commented on it to two of them. Unsure
If nothing else, it demonstrates a lack of instructor/coach awareness.


emmiwy  (B 33982)

Oct 4, 2010, 4:16 PM
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Re: [DSE] Cameras/New skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Over this past weekend, I observed several new wingsuiters wearing cameras for their first flights. Cameras were mostly small format, two were bigger/dedicated camera rigs. One was a mudflap mount.

From the perspective of an "instructor" (really a coach at this point), do you allow "students" to wear cameras when coaching them into a new discipline (whether it's CRW, Wingsuiting, FF, etc)?

Reasons for, ideas opposed please?

Pardon the minor divergence from topic, but related: I'm still a little wary of newly licensed skydivers who are wearing GoPros with sub-100 jumps. I don't really get it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 5, 2010, 3:51 PM
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In reply to:
As mentioned, saw MANY FFCs with cameras. And commented on it to two of them. Unsure
If nothing else, it demonstrates a lack of instructor/coach awareness.

DSE. Please, please, please use your very qualified influence to comment on ALL of them. Maybe, just maybe, you'll get through to some of them.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 5, 2010, 4:33 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

Switching it around, Ive seen a Belgian coach/instructor worry more about his Gopro being on (asking people to look at the light) than minding his student. Get a cam-eye and/or a normal camera if you're doing this on a coaching/instructional level!

That aside, for students on WS jumps I also prefer no cameras, as well as an open face helmet (for better visibility of handles etc, that are all slighly more obscured by the wingsuit, compared to normaly)


Jiggs  (F 745)

Oct 14, 2010, 8:21 PM
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Who wants to watch footage of the ground anyway? Wink

Seriously though - less distractions are always better regardless of the student. My job as a coach/cameraflyer is to be there and I will get footage that is of a good quality to aid the debrief.

I always inisist that people go without camera gear - I know what I look like in freefall


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 21, 2010, 7:23 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

I just rec'd a PM from someone who wore a small camera on his helmet during an FFC jump. He has just over 1000 skydives and had linetwists with excess brakeline caught on the camera.
He cutaway and was grateful the camera was mounted on with velcro. Apparently the camera stayed with the main.
Kinda looking forward to seeing that footage.
IMO, the coach's camera is all that is necessary for any kind of a "first" jump. If there is no coach, lose the camera when adding something new to the mix.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Dec 21, 2010, 7:56 AM
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Re: [DSE] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Over this past weekend, I observed several new wingsuiters wearing cameras for their first flights. Cameras were mostly small format, two were bigger/dedicated camera rigs. One was a mudflap mount.

From the perspective of an "instructor" (really a coach at this point), do you allow "students" to wear cameras when coaching them into a new discipline (whether it's CRW, Wingsuiting, FF, etc)?

Reasons for, ideas opposed please?

I have been thinking on this a while and here goes.
I would think "not", as I would want the focus on the skills we are working on and not wondering if the camera is on and getting good shots.

I have never had a FJC Type Student ask this, but I did have a Coach Candidate ask this and asked if he could do a practice jump a day prior to the Course starting.

Although I appreciated the footage he got of me working hard to now help him to much, it did nothing for him.

Matt


Ron

Dec 21, 2010, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Obviously I'm opposed to cameras on any "firsts" but it seems we're in the minority

I am with you. It seems that the new crowd seems to not see the big deal.

I was listening to NPR the other day and they had a Dr. Adam Gazzaley (SP?). The gist of the interview is that through brain scanning technology that is has been proven that we do not work well with multiple streams of information.

Found the link: http://www.npr.org/...hp?storyId=127771658

And we see that usually what happens when you demand great degrees of quality or of care, as opposed to something that's automatic like chewing gum and walking, when you demand this, what happens as opposed to actually doing two things at the same time, it seems that you switch between these things. And with each switch, there's a cost, a cost in performance that occurs.

This supports the idea that one thing should be *automatic* before an additional task is applied. In this case, jumping a camera before the basic WS skill is there.

So yeah... I'd ban any students from jumping a camera while I was coaching them. Too many times I have seen the camera become a distraction from the main focus of the lesson.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Dec 21, 2010, 3:40 PM
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Re: [Ron] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This supports the idea that one thing should be *automatic* before an additional task is applied. In this case, jumping a camera before the basic WS skill is there.

So yeah... I'd ban any students from jumping a camera while I was coaching them. Too many times I have seen the camera become a distraction from the main focus of the lesson.

I'm in total agreement with you, but just to be a devil's advocate here, what if your wingsuit "student" had a couple thousand belly jumps with most of them wearing a camera. By what you say his camera jumping has become "automatic" and the wingsuit jump is now the only new factor.

Just for the sake of argument, you understand.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 21, 2010, 3:50 PM
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Re: [BobMoore] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I'm in total agreement with you, but just to be a devil's advocate here, what if your wingsuit "student" had a couple thousand belly jumps with most of them wearing a camera. By what you say his camera jumping has become "automatic" and the wingsuit jump is now the only new factor.

Just for the sake of argument, you understand.

As mentioned in my last post, the person mentioned has around 1K belly jumps, most of them with a camera on his head.
New procedures should=starting back from square 1 or at least reducing the processes where possible.
FWIW, for an FFC, it doesn't matter how many jumps you have or how awesome a swooper you may be, we're still going to put you on a lightly loaded, non-elliptical canopy and an AAD rig with an RSL and audible, at least for that first jump.
And no camera. Tongue


Ron

Dec 21, 2010, 4:07 PM
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Re: [BobMoore] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm in total agreement with you, but just to be a devil's advocate here, what if your wingsuit "student" had a couple thousand belly jumps with most of them wearing a camera. By what you say his camera jumping has become "automatic" and the wingsuit jump is now the only new factor.

For starters... I am not a wing suit I (or coach, or whatever).

But, I would have less of an issue with a guy with 1k camera jumps wearing one when trying something new.

That does not mean I think it is a *good* idea. Just not dangerous.

Time after time it has been shown that focusing on the task at hand provides a better learning experience.

This is why we don't let FJC students surf the internet while in the FJC. They might be experts at surfing the net, but they should be paying more attention to the life and death lessons they are being taught.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Dec 21, 2010, 7:31 PM
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Re: [DSE] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never made a wing suit jump but would someday like to do so.

I obviously have a lot of belly jumps and am very current every year. I have about 1000 camera jumps filming tandems.

If I get an opportunity to do a wing suit jump, I guarantee the last thing I will want is the added distraction of my camera.



Most people need to learn from their own mistakes, others are satisfied to trust the dead.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Dec 22, 2010, 12:15 PM
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Re: [Ron] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

Code:
But, I would have less of an issue with a guy with 1k camera jumps wearing one when trying something new.

I never had a +1k cameraflying wingsuit student (yet), but I can relate. I have 1 (ONE) non-camera jump the last 1400 jumps (or more). I feel naked without a camera, and was actually distracted without (I'm MISSING something Crazy).

YMMV Wink


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Dec 22, 2010, 3:04 PM
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Re: [ataltitude] Cameras/coaching [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I fully agree with no camera on first any thing. At the end of the day, as you guys all have said, you need to focusing on what you are doing, not trying to get footage.

Here is the problem that I see. GO PRO I see people well under the min. with go pro's on their heads. I heard all sorts of excuses too. The best is its small and it has plastic screws.

Cameras and coaching work well when the coach or better yet outside video is shot.

I don't think that's what you are looking for DSE but that's what I got.



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