Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Safe Sit Flying?

 


Slink

Sep 1, 2001, 8:27 PM
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Safe Sit Flying? Can't Post

Have rigs with no exposed bridle made sit flying very safe? What are some opinions on sit flying using student gear with some bridle exposed from the BOC pilot chute pouch?



Zennie

Sep 1, 2001, 8:32 PM
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What kind (i.e. make/model) of container is it?

--------
Zennie
"I know the pieces fit. 'Cause I watched them fall away..."
--Tool


Slink

Sep 1, 2001, 8:44 PM
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A student Javalin, I don't know the model, I don't think it was ever converted. (And I'm not sure I know what I'm tlking about).



apoil  (D License)

Sep 2, 2001, 9:22 PM
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Ask the instructors who would presumably be letting you use their student gear if they feel

a) the rig is freefly safe
b) they feel that your skill level is sufficient that you can attempt a solo sit fly on your own.

If one of them says "no" don't go looking for another instructor that will say "yes" or "maybe" or "it's up to you".

Saut A. Poil



Dutchboy  (A 37004)

Sep 3, 2001, 8:56 AM
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Personally, I won't sitfly in a Javelin. I've seen too much in the way of flaps and bridle flapping around with others doing so.

The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra


Zennie

Sep 3, 2001, 9:46 AM
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Our DZ is primarily a Javelin DZ although Vectors are slowly making headway (me being one of the Vector people). Our DZ also has a pretty hefty share of freefliers who jump Javelins.

ramon might have a better insight on this since he knows all the freefliers at our DZ.

--------
Zennie
"I know the pieces fit. 'Cause I watched them fall away..."
--Tool


bbbilly14  (B License)

Sep 4, 2001, 2:04 AM
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In reply to:
Personally, I won't sitfly in a Javelin.
Why not? I have never had a problem with one, but I want to hear your side of it.

Love,
Billy
"Light a candle for the sinners---Set the world on fire!"
Marilyn Manson


Brokeneagle  (D 27414)

Sep 4, 2001, 4:18 AM
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I want to add a question to this: Dutch and I and several others at our DZ fly Dolphins, which are a hybrid-type Javelin- is the bridle less exposed in a Dolphin? (I am just beginning to sit-fly, and have never seen that many freeflyers/sitflyers in the air, nor examined a Javelin for Dolphin similarities)
Brokeneagle.

<shrug, grin, innocent look> I'm really very gentle, no matter what my kung-fu teacher says...


flyhi  (D License)

Sep 4, 2001, 4:39 AM
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In reply to:
Why not? I have never had a problem with one, but I want to hear your side of it.
Neither have I. When my Javelin {constructed in 1999} is all buttoned up, there is no bridle showing. A good pin check prior to exit and I feel safe.

"Sex without love is a meaningless experience, but as meaningless experiences go, it's pretty damned good." - Woody Allen

flyhiCool


Cacophony  (D 23912)

Sep 4, 2001, 7:48 AM
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A good freefly rig would be a rig with tuc-tab riser covers not velcro (velcro is bad for freeflying), zero bridal exposed, a BOC with preferably a F-111 PC (this is good because it won't slip out of the pouch as easily as a Zero P PC), a tight closing loop, tight leg and chest straps, and expecially secure main and reserve pin covers. Someone add on if I have forgotten anything. There is nothing wrong with Javelins as long as it is up to date. Make sure it is safe according to the standards of your rigger. Personally I jump a Vector 3.

Safe landings,
Alex D-23912


(This post was edited by Cacophony on Sep 3, 2001, 11:52 PM)


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Sep 4, 2001, 1:32 PM
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I saw a really cool mod for free flying this weekend. The guy had a small pillow where the hackey usually is. The pillow stuck out and had tuck tabs that covered the entrance to the BOC pocket. Pretty interesting looking and something I may incorporate in the future.

"The cab driver said... he recognized my girly by the back of her head" -Beasty Boys
Clay


Kris  (D 26033)

Sep 4, 2001, 1:53 PM
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In reply to:
I saw a really cool mod for free flying this weekend. The guy had a small pillow where the hackey usually is. The pillow stuck out and had tuck tabs that covered the entrance to the BOC pocket. Pretty interesting looking and something I may incorporate in the future.
Clay, the container was probably a Mirage or a Wings. They both have the option of having a "freefly" handle now. The handle attaches just as you said. It is not a true pull-out as the handle is still connected to the apex of the pilot chute.

Bill Hallett of Mirage Systems was demoing their new freefly handle at the Freaks Flock Together boogie at Skydive Dallas a few months ago. You can pick up the entire rig by the handle but give a little twist and it comes right out. I ordered it on my new Mirage UNISYN.

Kris
Less than two weeks to wait until I have my new Mirage and Heatwave...



OmriMon  (C 32176)

Sep 4, 2001, 4:44 PM
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javelin now have this option too

Free Skies,
Omri A-38593 Crazy


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Sep 4, 2001, 6:53 PM
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In reply to:
Bill Hallett of Mirage Systems was demoing their new freefly handle at the Freaks Flock Together boogie at Skydive Dallas a few months ago. You can pick up the entire rig by the handle but give a little twist and it comes right out. I ordered it on my new Mirage UNISYN.
The freefly handle is really a sweet setup.. Bill was showing it to me today.. Just be sure you don't let anybody jump your rig without first showing them how it works.....it could result in a reserve ride if they try to pull it out incorrectly and think it's a hard pull..

Mike



Kris  (D 26033)

Sep 4, 2001, 7:58 PM
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In reply to:
The freefly handle is really a sweet setup.. Bill was showing it to me today.. Just be sure you don't let anybody jump your rig without first showing them how it works.....it could result in a reserve ride if they try to pull it out incorrectly and think it's a hard pull..
Yup, that would definitely ruin someone's day! As it is, I will be doing a *LOT* of practice pulls on the ground before I go up with my new toy. I want the pull to be pure reflexive muscle memory before I try it for real in the air...

Kris



VivaHeadDown  (D 28101)

Sep 4, 2001, 10:50 PM
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I used to jump an older model javelin that belong to my college club. It's had many mods added by a profesional rigger as a result of some of my dives. I think I am several inches shorter due to 2 premature openings in a stand. Thank God there were no collisions on either jump. It's a simple rule: Exposed pieces and parts are a BAD thing. Avoid jumping in rigs that aren't safe for FFing otherwise you're taking a risk that's going to eventually do some damage if not kill you.





PhillyKev

Sep 5, 2001, 5:43 AM
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Maybe I'm confused, but I jump demo Javelin's from Square3. And there is zero exposed bridle. There's a narrow pocket that runs down from the top closing flap to the BOC that you tuck the bridle into. All flaps use tuck tabs, only velcro is a small piece above the pin where you attach the bridle to the top flap for extra security. And there's maybe an inch of exposed riser at the most. Seems like it's as safe as you can get for freeflying.

cielos azules y cerveza fra

-Kevin


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 5, 2001, 7:17 AM
Post #18 of 32 (2675 views)
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THats because that pocket on the closinf flap was added after Fall '99. Before then there was less protection and bridle was exposed. The other problem is if the closing loop is not tight enough the main flap will open fairly easly. This means the the bridle and pin are totaly exposed to the air and can open at any time. The Tuck tabs on a Javelin came about in the later '98/ Early 99 modles from what I've seen. Before then it was velcro.

Do I HAVE to do another raft dive??? Smile


RemiAndKaren  (C 2328)

Sep 5, 2001, 8:45 AM
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I'm not gonna get into Javelin bashing (allthough dominant player in any industry should get its share), BUT...
In reply to:
The Tuck tabs on a Javelin came about in the later '98/ Early 99
I'm really not sure about that Phree... ... My wife had a '94 with tuck tabs, and even before that I cant remember seeing ANY javelins with velcro riser covers......
but if there is one rig that I've seen that has a tendency to have its riser covers opened while wearing it, it is the Jav....


And for God's sake!!!! Stop treating sit/head down as the ultimate gear testing dicipline!!!! Try launching a linked 15 way (or more...) or diving last out of a DC3 (or even a caravan....) I'm not saying its worse, but it sure ass heck aint any more forgiving to poorly maintained/designed rigs....

Remi
Who would rather jump or properly maintained Velcro filled Vector II or Racer then a poorly maintained -*insert your favorite velcroless hideen briddle rig here*-

Remi
Muff 914


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Sep 5, 2001, 11:20 AM
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I thought it was a late model mod for the Riser tuck tabs since one of the jumpers at the DZ had that mod done to his 96 mod in early 98. Your probally right about being around in 94/95. I've seen a few of the jearly Javelins with Velcro still floating around the DZ. Most of them are the early 90's rigs owned by the POP's and SOS guys.
And I think the worst possible thing that you can do to your gear is be front float on something like a DC3 with its propblast! Divers on big ways easely exceed the speeds most freeflyers play at on a regular basis. There is nothing wrong with velcro as long as it is maintained properly. I'm with you on that one Remi!

Do I HAVE to do another raft dive??? Smile


Slowfaller  (A 38080)

Sep 5, 2001, 1:52 PM
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Speaking of sit flying, I suck at it. I always spin like a top and flip around the sky. what could i do to improve my sit fly??

CHris

" Thanks, you're special " - My brother talking to the Wendy's employee


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Sep 5, 2001, 4:59 PM
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"Speaking of sit flying, I suck at it. I always spin like a top and flip around the sky. what could i do to improve my sit fly??"

Keep your arms back and even. Feet flat and back of your thighs 90 deg to the earth. If it persists get video so someone can point out what you are doing wrong.



"Jesus Blessed me with his future...and I potect it with fire!"-R.A.T.M.
Clay


Slowfaller  (A 38080)

Sep 5, 2001, 5:35 PM
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Thanks Clay, I plan on doing some coached jumps when I have $$

CHris

" You're having the time of my life, and I think you've got it right" Jets to Brazil


MarkM  (C 35089)

Sep 6, 2001, 2:25 PM
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In reply to:
I've seen a few of the jearly Javelins with Velcro still floating around the DZ. Most of them are the early 90's rigs owned by the POP's and SOS guys.
Heh, well I'm sure as hell not a POP or SOS guy but my container is a 92 EOS.

No velcro on the lower part of the rig, but I do have some velcro on my reserve riser covers. No main riser covers on it at all though which really freaks some people out.



VivaHeadDown  (D 28101)

Sep 7, 2001, 4:33 PM
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It's very easy to get your feet uneven so check them as well.

And did someone say properly maintained velcro is safe for everyday freeflying??? Either you left out "not" right before safe, or maybe you need to share some of whatever it is you're smokin. It's just not reliable enough...or am I smokin something?



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Sep 7, 2001, 5:29 PM
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You did'nt miss read that. Velcro is safe for freeflying as long as its PROPERLY maintained. Like replacing it every 100 jumps or less. Most people dont take care of the velcro in a timly manner. There arelots of Vector 3's floating around out there that have velcro riser covers and velcro closing flaps that safe to freely (dive to the formation for Remi Wink) in on a regular basis. It all somes down to gear maintence. Mini-risers are to be replaced every so many jumps.... how many people do that? Velcro MUST be maintained on a regular basis if you want to push your gear to the edge. Its when you letthe velcro go just a few jumps more is when you start to have problems..... Velcro was used for years before tuck tabs. Tuck tabs are a great invention, but if you look in Parachutest a few months ago at the skysurfing article there is a pic of someone surfing with an ROL on.

Flying on your belly is great..... if thats all you can do! Wink


huffermoose  (A 101946)

Sep 8, 2001, 6:21 PM
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bang on apoil "best advice i have heard yet".

I only have to add one thing more if you want to sit fly in my opinion you have not only gotta take a look out for riser covers and exposed bits and pieces ( velcro is good as long is it is looked after) but how about your leg straps? i did my first sit jump with my teardrop container chest strap was tight leg straps were tight, however when i went into a sit i could feel my leg straps edging along under my thighs (which is kinda scary i felt) so first thing i did was procure some bungee cord and using the fastners that were already on my leg straps i pulled em up tight and showed an instructor. feels a lot better now!


just my 10 cents


this pigeons gotta fly

mooooooose



drosenberg  (B License)

Sep 13, 2001, 6:23 AM
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I also jump a Dolphin, I do sit and stand jumps.
My rig is not a Dolphin 2000 so I don't know if my advice is relevant to them but I did some improvement on my rig to make it safer:

1. I added some Velcro going from the BOC pouch up to the flap, so that any exposed bridle is velcroed to the container and not gust hanging free.

2. I added the elastic string connecting the leg straps at the back. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - I did this after in one jump, after I had many sit jumps and I really fasten the straps, my straps came up to my knee at about 4,500 ft.
I immediately went on my back and got the strap back up, then to my box position and pulled at 3,000 ft. THIS WAS NOT FUN!!!

3. Make sure the Velcro on the reserve pin flap is strong, if not replace it.

Of course these modifications were made by my rigger on my request.

If you want I can send you a photo of the modifications on my rig.

I recommend making these modifications before sit flying a Dolphin.

Blue skies and safe landings,

David


See my photos and video


Kelly  (C License)

Sep 13, 2001, 10:33 PM
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Re: Safe Sit Flying? [In reply to] Can't Post

clay et all...
Speaking of the pull out BOC.... its a great thing to have IF AND ONLY IF you will not be jumping in colder weather.. why do i say this? because, it can be hard enough to find your hackey with gloves on, now eliminate the defining roundness of that, and put in its place something that feels like a leg strap (or its equivilant). I was looking towards a Voodo with that option but a good friend and highly experienced skydiver (Camera flyer for IPOC skysurf) brought this point to light.
I dont want a reserve ride, and i especially dont want one cause i was tugging on my harness system/leg strap and not the first part of my main parachute deployment system.
remember that your gear may be jumped in all different conditions such as higher altitude, denser air, colder or more humid days etc etc (not saying that all these things effect what method of deployment you use.)
kel



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Sep 13, 2001, 10:41 PM
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In reply to:
Speaking of the pull out BOC.... its a great thing to have IF AND ONLY IF you will not be jumping in colder weather..
I strongly disagree.. I have jumped a pull-out with gloves on, without gloves on, and in extremely cold(25-30 degrees on the ground) weather - never had a problem.. Your experienced friend that turned you away from pull out is just one opinion.. I have never had a problem grabbing the wrong thing on a pull out.. Granted - I don't have all that many jumps on pull outs - but I know guys that have been jumping pull out for years, and have thousands of jumps on 'em in all conditions without a problem..

Mike



RemiAndKaren  (C 2328)

Sep 14, 2001, 1:57 AM
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In reply to:
and in extremely cold(25-30 degrees on the ground)
[chuckles.....] sorry.. couldnt resist...
I hate to continue the legent Of "Canada, the Frozen Wasteland", but -4C .... lol... thats dont even qualify as a winter jump.... Wink

Remi
Muff 914


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Sep 14, 2001, 10:44 AM
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In reply to:
I hate to continue the legent Of "Canada, the Frozen Wasteland", but -4C .... lol... thats dont even qualify as a winter jump....
It does when you live in Florida.. Tongue

Mike




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