Forums: Archive: 2013-2015 USPA BOD Elections:
USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled

 


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jun 25, 2010, 7:54 AM
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Just got email. From what I heard, this is suddenly urgent.
I think this one is quite important, people... (link)
---

From: BJ Worth <bj@theworldteam.com>
Subject: Please Help Skydiving and Skydivers

Hello fellow skydivers,

I am kindly asking for your help and support – on behalf of USPA. This is the first time that I’ve ever reached out to my skydiving friends for help with procedural matters affecting our national organization. But a very important issue has surfaced, so I am now calling on you to help our organization be able to help our fellow members better than ever before.

In 1957, USPA’s founding fathers could not anticipate the technological world that we live in today. The regulations adopted by USPA at that time are hand-cuffing our effectiveness in today’s world. The vast majority of USPA’s current board of directors and the USPA staff want to elect the Board of Directors via online voting over the internet. The regulations in the State of New York (where USPA is incorporated) require that a quorum of 10% of the membership must vote to make such a change to our voting process.

This requirement, although well intended, is impractical to say the least. So USPA is asking for members to give the board their one-time proxy vote so this 10% requirement can be achieved. No surprise that skydivers have more important things to do (such as skydiving) than to attend General Membership Meetings. The plan to adopt online voting for the current election is in jeopardy if USPA doesn’t receive the required number of proxies in the coming days.

I implore you… if you love our sport, and if you want to see the fairest possible, highest voter representation, and most transparent elections of our organization’s leaders, can you PLEASE take a few minutes – right now – to send your proxy to USPA. You can easily and quickly fax or scan and email your proxy without leaving your desk.

To download proxy form: http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Proxy%20Download.pdf

Or, if you have the time and inclination, please come attend USPA’s General Membership Meeting in Nashua, NH on 16 July.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Thank you for helping USPA serve it membership even better!!

BJ Worth

For more info: http://uspa.org/...bid/521/Default.aspx

---
[Mark's note to new skydivers here who probably didn't know there was a USPA voting process -- BJ Worth is a well known person in skydiving, and is a World Team leader (400-way world record). Very well-regarded person. Just ask other long time skydivers who know him.]


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jun 25, 2010, 8:38 AM)


sdctlc  (D 16437)

Jun 25, 2010, 8:14 AM
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I did it a few weeks back.. Fast and Easy! DO IT if your in the USPA!


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jun 25, 2010, 9:36 AM
Post #3 of 140 (3465 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I talked to a USPA staffer the first weekend in June - they had about half of what they needed.


SkyJeaux  (C 2147483647)

Jun 25, 2010, 9:44 AM
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Simple...did it in less than 5 minutes. COME ON PEOPLE!


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Jun 25, 2010, 10:29 AM
Post #5 of 140 (3428 views)
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In reply to:
Simple...did it in less than 5 minutes. COME ON PEOPLE!

Done. Smile


JohnRich  (D License)

Jun 25, 2010, 1:06 PM
Post #6 of 140 (3390 views)
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I sent an image of mine in by e-mail a month ago, and received a personal "Thanks" reply from Clint Vincent.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Jun 25, 2010, 1:47 PM
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In reply to:
I sent an image of mine in by e-mail a month ago, and received a personal "Thanks" reply from Clint Vincent.

Ditto. That was a quick response.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jun 25, 2010, 2:42 PM
Post #8 of 140 (3354 views)
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Thanks to all who submitted proxies!
And thank you for encouraging others!

Craig


VTmotoMike08  (D 30399)

Jun 25, 2010, 6:09 PM
Post #9 of 140 (3331 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone know why USPA is incorporated in New York?Crazy Just cause it has always been? If the proxy effort fails, how about they just re-incorporate it somewhere else that doesn't have that rule? I know there's a lot of obscure laws out there but this is ridiculous. I thought it was just USPA's bylaws (which I have no interest in reading) that required 10% response.

Any yes, I sent mine in.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 25, 2010, 10:21 PM
Post #10 of 140 (3303 views)
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I'll not be sending in my proxy, and here is why. This proxy was always intended to be written very specifically with the EXACT changes to the Governance Manual spelled out clearly.

In a nut shell, that proved to be too much for the BOD to agree on. Something as important as this issue takes a back seat at meetings so other frivolous matters can be hemmed and hawed over.

In essence this proxy is a blank check being given to the BOD, and quite frankly I don't trust the BOD as whole that much. If this were written so as to give the Executive Director (Ed Scott) the power to make the changes , then maybe, but not as it stands now.

Besides, isn't there a certain irony to BJ's plea being made on this site to the very members he ridiculed and disrespected at the last general Membership Meeting?Tongue


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 26, 2010, 5:44 AM
Post #11 of 140 (3270 views)
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In reply to:
I'll not be sending in my proxy, and here is why. This proxy was always intended to be written very specifically with the EXACT changes to the Governance Manual spelled out clearly.

In a nut shell, that proved to be too much for the BOD to agree on. Something as important as this issue takes a back seat at meetings so other frivolous matters can be hemmed and hawed over.

In essence this proxy is a blank check being given to the BOD, and quite frankly I don't trust the BOD as whole that much. If this were written so as to give the Executive Director (Ed Scott) the power to make the changes , then maybe, but not as it stands now.

Besides, isn't there a certain irony to BJ's plea being made on this site to the very members he ridiculed and disrespected at the last general Membership Meeting?Tongue


This proxy effort is not a blank check, it is very specific and clearly states "for online voting only". That is how it will be used. It was decided to keep things simple so members would not have to pull out the Governance Manual and study it to find out what was being proposed. That was an intentional decision. Everything that came before the board passed the first time. Sure, there were board members who preferred more detail, you rarely get a 100% vote on matters with detail, but to say disagreement is the reason for the limited wording is just wrong !!

BJ appealed to no one here, that is a reprint that someone posted here.

I am hopeful that the proxy will pass and you will see that your distrust was unwarranted.

Members, please take a moment to print out the proxy link below, sign it, then scan, fax or take a photo with your camera and send it to USPA as instructed on the form. You can do it in two minutes without leaving your desk !!! USPA needs to move into the current century.

Blue Skies,

Ed


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 26, 2010, 6:11 AM
Post #12 of 140 (3264 views)
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyone know why USPA is incorporated in New York?Crazy Just cause it has always been? If the proxy effort fails, how about they just re-incorporate it somewhere else that doesn't have that rule? I know there's a lot of obscure laws out there but this is ridiculous. I thought it was just USPA's bylaws (which I have no interest in reading) that required 10% response.

Any yes, I sent mine in.

Thanks for sending the proxy. The requirement for a 10% quorum is found in the USPA Governance Manual, Article II Section 1.

For those who may have trouble getting to sleep at night, I highly recommend the Governance Manual as a proven method of getting to sleep without drugs. Wink

Blue Skies,

Ed


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Jun 26, 2010, 6:51 AM
Post #13 of 140 (3220 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Members, please take a moment to print out the proxy link below, sign it, then scan, fax or take a photo with your camera and send it to USPA as instructed on the form. You can do it in two minutes without leaving your desk !!! USPA needs to move into the current century.

I guess I'm one of the few people who do not own a printer, and I don't own a scanner or fax machine. For me it would take a lot longer than two minutes.

For you computer-literate folks out there, what does it take to create a modifiable pdf form? State and federal tax agencies use them to simplify filling out tax returns.

Bob


tdog  (D 28800)

Jun 26, 2010, 6:59 AM
Post #14 of 140 (3216 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I guess I'm one of the few people who do not own a printer, and I don't own a scanner or fax machine. For me it would take a lot longer than two minutes.

For you computer-literate folks out there, what does it take to create a modifiable pdf form? State and federal tax agencies use them to simplify filling out tax returns.

Bob

I am just guessing you can't have an ONLINE proxy without having ONLINE voting... Thus the root of the problem.


tdog  (D 28800)

Jun 26, 2010, 7:00 AM
Post #15 of 140 (3215 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

It's saturday. Everyone print out 20 of the proxies, take them to your friends at the DZ, have them sign, and then send back in bulk via the DZ's fax machine...


fasted3  (D 30104)

Jun 26, 2010, 7:11 AM
Post #16 of 140 (3210 views)
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In reply to:
I guess I'm one of the few people who do not own a printer, and I don't own a scanner or fax machine. For me it would take a lot longer than two minutes.

For you computer-literate folks out there, what does it take to create a modifiable pdf form? State and federal tax agencies use them to simplify filling out tax returns.

Bob

Bring up the form and hit print screen key on your keyboard. Open paint and then edit/paste, the form will appear as a picture and you can edit it. Signing with the mouse is the hard part but it can be done.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 26, 2010, 8:18 AM
Post #17 of 140 (3203 views)
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Re: [fasted3] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

you can also take a photo of your signature with a cell phone, email that to yourself, use the photo in your photo editor to "sign" the petition. Then it's entirely digital, no paper needed.
It then can be sent to USPA as an email.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jun 26, 2010, 9:56 AM
Post #18 of 140 (3195 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are desparate and don't want to use a fax machine, I believe http://www.echosign.com is legal. It is free too.

It allows you to SIGN an Adobe PDF document with your COMPUTER MOUSE ...
and EMAIL the SIGNED document!


The website allows you to sign Adobe PDF documents with an electronically handwritten signature on your laptop's touchpad or computer mouse. Just make sure you customize it so that you place the signature directly on the PDF document, and select "sign with mouse" instead of the default typed signature. It can even memorize your signature for future document signings, through the same Echosign website.

Recent law changes, have made electronic signatures legally binding, and this is an avenue if you have no access to a fax machine. This may need to be confirmed with USPA first, but this may speed things up for those people who do not have easy access to a fax machine or scanner.

It is faster if you already have access to a fax machine, but if you are stuck at your desk at the office (without a fax allowance), you could pull this off during your lunch period. Echosign (http://www.echosign.com) allow 5 free digital signatures a month.

I use this system to get timesheets signed and approved by my manager, for contractor billing. The agency agreed to use them, so I can avoid printing out timesheet/invoices, and just email them instead.

There was a ceremony where the U.S. president did an electronic signature on the legislation authorizing electronic signatures as a legal method of passing legislation. It's already legal at the federal level already.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jun 26, 2010, 10:08 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jun 26, 2010, 10:37 AM
Post #19 of 140 (3180 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you can also take a photo of your signature with a cell phone, email that to yourself, use the photo in your photo editor to "sign" the petition. Then it's entirely digital, no paper needed.
It then can be sent to USPA as an email.

Don't be so sure that our friend has a camera phone; mind you, he doesn't have a printer. He may very well have this model of cell phone:

first-generation cell phone


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Jun 26, 2010, 10:44 AM
Post #20 of 140 (3178 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't be so sure that our friend has a camera phone; mind you, he doesn't have a printer. He may very well have this model of cell phone:

first-generation cell phone

Not quite that bad, but, no, I don't have a camera phone. It's a Tracfone purchased at Walmart. Does everything I want it to do.

Bob


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jun 26, 2010, 12:01 PM
Post #21 of 140 (3170 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Don't be so sure that our friend has a camera phone; mind you, he doesn't have a printer. He may very well have this model of cell phone:

first-generation cell phone

Not quite that bad, but, no, I don't have a camera phone. It's a Tracfone purchased at Walmart. Does everything I want it to do.

Mine beams me up to the ship whenever I want. You're so jealous.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 26, 2010, 12:38 PM
Post #22 of 140 (3164 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I guess I'm one of the few people who do not own a printer, and I don't own a scanner or fax machine. For me it would take a lot longer than two minutes.

For you computer-literate folks out there, what does it take to create a modifiable pdf form? State and federal tax agencies use them to simplify filling out tax returns.

Bob

Well Bob, there is always the old tried and proven method. Tear the card out of parachutist, sign it, address the envelope, put a stamp on it and let the mailman deliver it.

If we get enough of those, you won't have to go through that at election time.

Ed


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jun 28, 2010, 11:27 AM
Post #23 of 140 (3094 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll not be sending in my proxy, and here is why. This proxy was always intended to be written very specifically with the EXACT changes to the Governance Manual spelled out clearly.

In a nut shell, that proved to be too much for the BOD to agree on. Something as important as this issue takes a back seat at meetings so other frivolous matters can be hemmed and hawed over.

In essence this proxy is a blank check being given to the BOD, and quite frankly I don't trust the BOD as whole that much. If this were written so as to give the Executive Director (Ed Scott) the power to make the changes , then maybe, but not as it stands now.

Besides, isn't there a certain irony to BJ's plea being made on this site to the very members he ridiculed and disrespected at the last general Membership Meeting?Tongue

+1

Cool


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jun 28, 2010, 3:32 PM
Post #24 of 140 (3062 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Guys,

+2

JerryBaumchen


fasted3  (D 30104)

Jun 28, 2010, 4:10 PM
Post #25 of 140 (3049 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jerry,
Am I missing something? I think online voting is a good idea, and this seems like the way to get it. The proxy does not appear to be a blank check, as it specifies this single issue. What is the problem?


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 28, 2010, 4:16 PM
Post #26 of 140 (1458 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

+3

(Can you believe it?!? JP, Robin, Jerry and Paul all agree on something. You heard it first here on dropzone.com!)

I won't send a proxy, but my reason is slightly different.

I will restate it.

I do not think we need online voting now. Predictions are that it will be expensive, and there's no clear benefit to the membership.

To maximize the effect of my "vote", I will not send in a proxy.

If the quorum is not met, my side wins.

Were I to send a "no" proxy, it would contribute to the 10% quorum requirement.

If the quorum was achieved, my side could lose with as little as 5.1% of the membership approving of the change.

I don't think that a possibly expensive change like this should carry with so little as 5.1% of the membership.

-paul


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 28, 2010, 8:33 PM
Post #27 of 140 (1437 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point, and well stated.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jun 28, 2010, 9:46 PM
Post #28 of 140 (1427 views)
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Re: [fasted3] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi fasted,

Quote:
I think online voting is a good idea

And

Quote:
The proxy does not appear to be a blank check,

I think online voting is a great idea.

I also think that the way this 'proxy goodie' is worded does not restrict any proxy that the BOD would have their grubby little hands on.

If I were convinced that the proxy could, under no conditions, be used for anything other than online voting I would vote for it. I am NOT convinced.

For many years I belonged to EAA and every voting year Tom P would ask for proxies from anyone stupid enough to give it to him; and an awful lot of the membership did. He runs the EAA as his own little fifedom.

IMO the BOD does not listen to the membership and people like BJ Worth have been using their position(s) on the BOD for their own benefit for way too long. He is one I would like to see go.

And his audacity in coming to this forum and asking for help. Good grief!!!!!!

Anything else you would like to know? Wink

JerryBaumchen


apt3studiodiver  (B 33514)

Jun 28, 2010, 10:05 PM
Post #29 of 140 (1425 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Predictions are that it will be expensive

It cant be as expensive as including printed paper mailers out within Parachutist Magazine (the price of printing it in the 2-3 months I've seen it included alone should cover the cost of programming a solution).

Not including the staff hours it takes to go through those paper mailers. And those staffers are STILL doing data entry into a 'database' (or should be) to keep track of any 'yes' or 'no' votes, and with what oversight to that staffer and his/her preconceived notions of how the vote should sway?

So far, paper inclusions = $$, staff hrs to count paper = $$, waste of paper (your trash and USPA's) = $$, cost of filing legitimate votes = $$, oversight of staffer doing the counting (if this is even taking place) = $$, cost on environment =$$

Why not take some up-front cost of automation and realize a long-term benefit of an un-biased software solution that should at least cover even the cost of paper and man-hrs in just a few years? (this is based purely on my speculation on how USPA handles votes currently, which may be completely off base)

Worst case scenario... Let's just say that they incorporate online voting. USPA will incur some cost upfront for programming and the on-going cost to continue to print mailings, albeit possibly scaled down in regard to print. As long as 75% of membership utilizes the online voting the cost offset between printing/having dedicated man-hours to counting votes vs. software counting should offset the cost margin in the long run.

This is mostly at minimum wage (Ohio min. wage)... and my bet is on someone NOT earning min. wage and earning a hefty salary counting these votes when they could be doing something entirely more productive with their time.. with my membership money.

Although if only 10 pieces of paper get mailed back in, the counting job isn't as hard as I may be thinking.Crazy


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 29, 2010, 5:59 AM
Post #30 of 140 (1408 views)
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Re: [apt3studiodiver] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Predictions are that it will be expensive

It cant be as expensive as including printed paper mailers out within Parachutist Magazine (the price of printing it in the 2-3 months I've seen it included alone should cover the cost of programming a solution).

As it has been described, all the costs of online voting are in addition to the costs of the existing paper balloting.

As it has been described, the online votes are converted into paper ballots and merged with the other paper ballots.

At that point, the existing system operates as it always has.

If USPA wants to design and implement a system that will replace the current system at a reduced cost, I'll be happy to go along.

That is not what is in the "plan" now.

If you think that's what you'll get by sending in a "yes" proxy, you are mistaken.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jun 29, 2010, 8:36 AM
Post #31 of 140 (1387 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMO the BOD does not listen to the membership....


JerryBaumchen

Technically, I am reading not listening, but that should count for something.Tongue

Craig Stapleton


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jun 29, 2010, 8:38 AM
Post #32 of 140 (1386 views)
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Re: [topdocker] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
IMO the BOD does not listen to the membership....


JerryBaumchen

Technically, I am reading not listening, but that should count for something.Tongue

Craig Stapleton

HOW ABOUT IF WE SHOUT? WILL YOU LISTEN THEN? Wink


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jun 29, 2010, 8:41 AM
Post #33 of 140 (1383 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
IMO the BOD does not listen to the membership....


JerryBaumchen

Technically, I am reading not listening, but that should count for something.Tongue

Craig Stapleton

HOW ABOUT IF WE SHOUT? WILL YOU LISTEN THEN? Wink

What? Were you talking to me?

Craig


MakeItHappen

Jun 29, 2010, 11:01 AM
Post #34 of 140 (1370 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMO the BOD does not listen to the membership and people like BJ Worth have been using their position(s) on the BOD for their own benefit for way too long. He is one I would like to see go.

JerryBaumchen

+1

.


MakeItHappen

Jun 29, 2010, 12:29 PM
Post #35 of 140 (1357 views)
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Re: [apt3studiodiver] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Predictions are that it will be expensive

It cant be as expensive as including printed paper mailers out within Parachutist Magazine (the price of printing it in the 2-3 months I've seen it included alone should cover the cost of programming a solution).

Estimates for the online voting are 15 to 20 thousand. The current paper balloting costs about 8 thousand.
One of the things that can make online voting MUCH cheaper is to be charged for the number of people that actually use it, as opposed to the entire membership roster. This would work as an opt-in type registration for voting. However, it does require some technical changes on the USPA side (that would cost about two days of work). I have personally informed the BOD of this several times at BOD meetings, including the last one.

One great advantage of having an opt-in online voting system is that it is more secure than the 'give the membership roster to the vendor' method is that security and fraud are significantly reduced.

An optin system works like this:

1. Member goes to USPA's website and identifies/validates who they are. An important security issue is that the email addy that USPA has on file be used. IOW, you cannot change your email addy during the registration process.

2. The USPA site generates a passcode/confirmation number that is emailed to the member and to the online voting vendor. The passcode is not stored by USPA.

3. The member goes to the online voting vendor's site and enters the passcode/email combination to validate the member.

4. The member then votes.

The advantages of this are that only the vendor and the member know what the passcode is.

A disadvantage of this is that members with the same email address will have to get additional email addys and then update USPA's info first, before being able to vote. IOW, email addys have to be unique within the member DB.
One thing that USPA needs to do is verify an email addy change via the old email addy before changing the email addy.
USPA does not do this. IOW, anyone can create a new email addy on yahoo, for instance, send an email in to USPA and change any other member's email addy. A person could cull votes by systematically changing other people's email addys and then going to the optin site. This may be avoided if USPA diligently verified email change requests by polling the old email addy to verify a valid email change request.

A side note:
The maintenance of the USPA members' email addy is non-existent. Clint Vincent told me personally that he does not receive bounce messages that would enable him to remove bounced email or change forwarded emails in the USPA DB. Yet another concern is the transfer of email addys via dormancy and later pickup by someone else. IOW, suppose someone used skydiver@yahoo.com and told USPA that was their email addy. Then they never used it for years. That account gets put back into circulation and could get picked up by someone else. So someone could potentially have their own email under their own name in the USPA DB and an account to another member under a recirculated email addy.

In the method proposed to be used by USPA the entire membership DB will be handed over to the vendor and the vendor will take care of validating a member based solely on the information that USPA has. USPA BOD members, specifically Ed Dixon, have told me that they plan to use something like your birthday as a passcode.
Think about this. How many places can you find someone's birthday, including the year? Facebook, dropzone.com, third party web sites, DZOs, organizers of FAI records, competition files, 411 type lookup sites, and on and on.
Even if the USPA member number was used as a passcode, that is still available in a large number of places and available to a large number of people. It's on your mailing label, in minutes, on third party web sites etc. IOW, it is known to more people than only the online voting vendor and the member.
The door should be shut on this. The passcode should only be known by the vendor and the member.

The advantage of the USPA method is that USPA does not have to do anything.

The disadvantages of the USPA method include and are not limited to:

1. Member data that USPA has is known to a large number of people. This includes and is not limited to DZOs, organizers, facebook, dropzone.com, 411 & other lookup people sites, third party web sites and real-life friends and friends of friends.

2. As of today, member data, specifically the email addy, can be changed by anyone anywhere by sending an email to USPA. There are no checks in place to validate such a change.
To test this, I suggest you try to change my email of record with USPA.
Go get a yahoo, hotmail or gmail email account.
Send an email to USPA HQ with my old email addy and say that my new email addy is whatever you created.
There will be no validation email sent to me confirming this change. Anyone can take over my online vote.

I have informed USPA about these security issues and many more, too numerous to list here, several times in person at BOD meetings.
The response was that 'well, no one will do that'
That is not the point. The point is that the door on compromise and fraud should be shut and locked, so that there is no question about the validity of an online vote.

USPA fails to meet this concern.


A note about the way USPA is going about this change:

Proxy voting is NOT allowed by Robert's Rules because it removes the fundamental rights of members debating and voting on issues.
However, the bylaws may allow proxy voting, as long as the local, state and federal laws do not prohibit proxy voting.

Proxy voting is acceptable in organizations were the members have transferable rights or privileges, such as stock in a company.
USPA members do not have any transferable privileges.
Your membership cannot be given to another.
IOW, if you go in, you cannot will the balance of your membership time to someone else.

Proxy voting removes the fundamental rights of members to debate and vote on issues.

The proper way USPA should be getting support for online voting is to put a measure on the ballot and have it voted on directly by the membership. They should state the exact changes
eg Amend section abc by deleting 'blah, blah, blah' and inserting 'yadda, yadda, yadda' etc.

The fact that USPA cannot provide this information, (and I have asked for it several times) shows that USPA does not understand the bylaws change process, is flippant, disregards proper procedures and discounts members' ability to comprehend issues,
as noted by Ed Dixon's comment of:
"It was decided to keep things simple so members would not have to pull out the Governance Manual and study it to find out what was being proposed. "

If you have sent in a proxy, you may revoke it at any time.

.


(This post was edited by MakeItHappen on Jun 29, 2010, 12:44 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 29, 2010, 7:08 PM
Post #36 of 140 (1319 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you have sent in a proxy, you may revoke it at any time.

Since they ain't valid in the first place.....Crazy

Quote:
The proper way USPA should be getting support for online voting is to put a measure on the ballot and have it voted on directly by the membership. They should state the exact changes
eg Amend section abc by deleting 'blah, blah, blah' and inserting 'yadda, yadda, yadda' etc.

As many times as this has been stated it impresses me how it has not been considered by the BOD as an option. The effort to do so is less than is taking for this proxy effort since we a ballot needs to be done anyway.


MakeItHappen

Jun 29, 2010, 11:38 PM
Post #37 of 140 (1301 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
If you have sent in a proxy, you may revoke it at any time.

Since they ain't valid in the first place.....Crazy

The proxy is valid. The USPA bylaws allow proxies and it is not against local, state or federal laws.

In reply to:
Quote:
The proper way USPA should be getting support for online voting is to put a measure on the ballot and have it voted on directly by the membership. They should state the exact changes
eg Amend section abc by deleting 'blah, blah, blah' and inserting 'yadda, yadda, yadda' etc.

As many times as this has been stated it impresses me how it has not been considered by the BOD as an option. The effort to do so is less than is taking for this proxy effort since we a ballot needs to be done anyway.

Perhaps this may be an action that comes out of the summer meeting.

.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 30, 2010, 1:09 AM
Post #38 of 140 (1296 views)
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In reply to:

I think online voting is a great idea.

I also think that the way this 'proxy goodie' is worded does not restrict any proxy that the BOD would have their grubby little hands on.

If I were convinced that the proxy could, under no conditions, be used for anything other than online voting I would vote for it. I am NOT convinced.

For many years I belonged to EAA and every voting year Tom P would ask for proxies from anyone stupid enough to give it to him; and an awful lot of the membership did. He runs the EAA as his own little fifedom.

IMO the BOD does not listen to the membership and people like BJ Worth have been using their position(s) on the BOD for their own benefit for way too long. He is one I would like to see go.

And his audacity in coming to this forum and asking for help. Good grief!!!!!!

Anything else you would like to know? Wink

JerryBaumchen

Hi Jerry,

Long time no see !! You say the Board does not listen, but you have at least 3 of us right here listening (reading). I respect those who have a different view from mine. I can tell you that the proxy is exactly what it says it is, for online voting only.

So, are you pleased with our present system, which is as flawed as it can get? Are you satisfied that the Executive Director (who is hired by the board) and staff count the votes at present? I am not. With online voting, ALL votes will be counted by a third party and that is something we should have done a looooong time ago.

It's not that anyone thinks the members aren't smart enough to read and understand a proxy with a lot of detail. It's just that they don't have the time/interest and most won't do it. In my opinion a detailed proxy would have been doomed from the start and that is why I argued to keep it simple.

We are not there yet and it will take an effort on the part of those who see a benefit in this effort, so please send in proxies.

Oh yes, once again, BJ did not come here and ask for anything. That is a post by someone else of an email they received.

Blue Skies,

Ed


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2010, 7:30 AM
Post #39 of 140 (1280 views)
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Quote:
Proxy voting is acceptable in organizations were the members have transferable rights or privileges, such as stock in a company.
USPA members do not have any transferable privileges.
Your membership cannot be given to another.
IOW, if you go in, you cannot will the balance of your membership time to someone else.

I may have interpreted this statement incorrectly.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 30, 2010, 1:46 PM
Post #40 of 140 (1255 views)
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Hi Jan,

That post is so lengthy and filled with incorrect information that I stopped reading long before I got to the end. If you have positive suggestions on real issues, please give them to me and they will be considered.

But first, we have to get more proxies or it is a moot point !! So, keep 'em coming folks !!

Blue Skies,

Ed


MakeItHappen

Jun 30, 2010, 2:09 PM
Post #41 of 140 (1256 views)
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In reply to:
Hi Jan,

That post is so lengthy and filled with incorrect information that I stopped reading long before I got to the end. If you have positive suggestions on real issues, please give them to me and they will be considered.

But first, we have to get more proxies or it is a moot point !! So, keep 'em coming folks !!

Blue Skies,

Ed

Yes John DeSantis called me and said the cost was $35 thousand.
I thought it was 15-20 k.
Other than that it is correct.

.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 30, 2010, 3:52 PM
Post #42 of 140 (1241 views)
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Jan, I am certain I posted this before. The base price of the plan under consideration is $14,995 and we get unlimited elections for one year for whatever purpose needed. There are extras if we choose to purchase them such as entering paper ballots into the system. My thoughts are that this will cost less than $20 k per election. That is less than the price of a postage stamp per member per year to put it in perspective.

Many of the things you state as fact and complain about haven't even been settled yet. We are seeking the best solutions. That is the reason I ask for constructive information.

I recall something I saw hanging in a business. "Arguing with some people is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Sooner or later you are going to realize it is what the pig enjoys." So, I am going to let you continue with all of your "facts", undisturbed.

Blue Skies,

Ed


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jun 30, 2010, 4:43 PM
Post #43 of 140 (1226 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone, BJ did not ask me to post his message on dropzone.com .... It was something that I decided to do, as regardless of which side you are on about BJ, I agree about the benefits of online voting.

Buddy, I don't care if you like/hate BJ, but I think online voting deserves serious consideration.

In reply to:
As it has been described, all the costs of online voting are in addition to the costs of the existing paper balloting.
Yes, but the grand total is not necessarily more expensive than paper ballot only.

Extra expense may have been true in the web1.0 era and the dot.bomb era, but this is not necessarily unamiously true anymore, depending on how it's done.

It will not be more expensive, IFF, the cost of implementing an online voting system, amortized over the next X years (say 3), is less than the cost of the extra paper ballots that would disappear when people use online voting instead (and the cost savings caused by automatic vote counting for the electronic portion of the vote) AND/OR the increased voting percentage causes benefits that outweigh the cost of online vote.

Today's it is cheap/free to do maps, blogs, petition.
EXAMPLE...
You want to create a petition?..... www.petitiononline.com
You want to embed video in a webpage?.... www.youtube.com
You want to embed a blog in a webpage?... www.twitter.com
You want to embed a map in a webpage?... maps.google.com
etc...

Now... you want an online voting system? Google "online voting engine" and USPA just buys one of them (an appropriate one, carefully). Some of them are even very secure, and with minimal cost, can be integrated into an identity verification system (often, this feature, is now included for free, in some of these voting engines). One technique used is a unique key system (generate a new passcode for each USPA member), with an optional audit trail to help prevent abuses, and undo votes that are fraudulent. Some of these online voting systems include that feature. Some system would even allow every USPA member can verify their vote by re-entering the special passcode. This is non-USPA software that USPA can't hack or distort, thus making voting, in theory, safer (in some ways) than paper ballots, at least in theory. In my opinion, it's safe enough nowadays for this league of voting.

In the past, in the web1.0 era, you had to write a lot of computer code (scripting) and HTML, to get complex stuff done. Nowadays, there's already websites that provide generic online voting engines for sporting assoications. USPA would simply pay a pretty low fee to use one of those web2.0 voting services.

I CHECKED some of the prices, and they ARE cheaper than mailing out extra votes. Buddies, this is web2.0 going to web3.0 and the era of high dot.bomb costs aren't necessarily here, if you don't try to reinvent the wheels. The voting engine wheel is already reinvented by many people (with lots of competition as you can see)


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jun 30, 2010, 4:56 PM)


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 30, 2010, 4:49 PM
Post #44 of 140 (1221 views)
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In reply to:


As it has been described, the online votes are converted into paper ballots and merged with the other paper ballots.

At that point, the existing system operates as it always has.

Paul,

No no no no no !!! If online voting passes, USPA will have a 100% online voting system with paper ballots allowed. The paper ballots will have to be keyed in by someone, so everyone may as well do it themselves.

Staff will do no counting of ballots with online voting which is as it should be.

Blue Skies,

Ed


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:04 PM
Post #45 of 140 (1212 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:


As it has been described, the online votes are converted into paper ballots and merged with the other paper ballots.

At that point, the existing system operates as it always has.

Paul,

No no no no no !!! If online voting passes, USPA will have a 100% online voting system with paper ballots allowed. The paper ballots will have to be keyed in by someone, so everyone may as well do it themselves.

Staff will do no counting of ballots with online voting which is as it should be.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Well, that's interesting.

I tried to find the thread that I believe had this information, but was unable. The thread that this post is on is almost brand new. Any idea where the earlier thread went? FYI This current thread started on Jun 25 2010. We've been discussing this stuff for a lot longer than that.

Anyway, somewhere in that earlier discussion, I got the idea that the online system was going to feed into the existing paper system.

Was that the plan at some point and it has changed?

Because you know I have been reading and posting all along, and it seems to me that this is the first I have heard you say that online voting is a complete and separate system, and that the paper ballots feed into the online system, not the other way around.

-paul


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:23 PM
Post #46 of 140 (1209 views)
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Paul,

I have no idea what happened to the first thread. The information you have did not come from me. It is not and never was the plan.

I have been sticking around trying to clear up misconceptions. Most things I let pass without comment, but major ones I have addressed. The system proposed is 100% online. Paper is allowed. That is at the heart of the proposed system.

The wording from N&E of the proposed changes in the Governance manual goes out to the board tomorrow. I will share it just after the full board gets it. It is intended to be worded in such a way that if online voting does not work as expected, the board can go back to what we presently have.

Blue Skies,

Ed


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2010, 6:16 PM
Post #47 of 140 (1191 views)
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Ed, I'll preface this by saying you ARE one of those I trust on the BOD, but to easily something seems to be started with good intentions only to have those more self serving snowball it into something ugly. You and I both know much meeting business is done in the hallways, and behind closed doors, so there in lies the problem I have with this proxy.

I am all for moving voting into the modern day, BUT it must be done securely (which so far is not a guarantee) to avoid the constant bickering about the fairness of elections. It must be done so as to minimize the economic impact to the organization.

No one will disclose the current cost of elections to the members. Now the vague numbers between $15,000 and $35,000 are leaking out, and that so far is in ADDITION to the current costs. No one had shown a plan where this online cost will be a replacement to the current paper costs.

It doesn't matter if it's less than a stamp per member, the organization isn't spending that stamp now.

The way this should have gone down: EVERY one of these details should have been ironed out and disclosed to the voting membership PRIOR to asking for a proxy. The difficulty is the portion of the BOD that doesn't really want to work for the good of the membership, but rather their own ends. Now your second chance at this (at very minor cost) will be to add an item to the ballot this year.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2010, 6:17 PM
Post #48 of 140 (1189 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I CHECKED some of the prices, and they ARE cheaper than mailing out extra votes.

You know how ballots are distributed to the membership already, right?


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jun 30, 2010, 6:39 PM
Post #49 of 140 (1186 views)
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In reply to:
Hi fasted,

Quote:
I think online voting is a good idea

And

Quote:
The proxy does not appear to be a blank check,

I think online voting is a great idea.

I also think that the way this 'proxy goodie' is worded does not restrict any proxy that the BOD would have their grubby little hands on.

If I were convinced that the proxy could, under no conditions, be used for anything other than online voting I would vote for it. I am NOT convinced.

For many years I belonged to EAA and every voting year Tom P would ask for proxies from anyone stupid enough to give it to him; and an awful lot of the membership did. He runs the EAA as his own little fifedom.

IMO the BOD does not listen to the membership and people like BJ Worth have been using their position(s) on the BOD for their own benefit for way too long. He is one I would like to see go.

And his audacity in coming to this forum and asking for help. Good grief!!!!!!

Anything else you would like to know? Wink

JerryBaumchen

+1

And here's something everyone ought to know: BJ & Co. have on this issue already apparently tried to scam not only the members but their BOD colleagues as well.

Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote for the April 2008 issue of SKYDIVING about the February 2008 BOD meeting, wherein the apparent scam they tried came to light.

The article was headlined "Personalities, Difficult Subjects Hamper USPA Meeting" and it began on page 22.

BEGIN EXCERPT:
The genesis of the elections dustup starts at a previous board meeting, where during the final Sunday morning committee reports BJ proposed a “trust me” motion for what was specifically identified as a “housekeeping” action; non-policy-related changes to the organization’s governing manual. Each proposed change was shown on the overhead projector screens to the full board, including one that said something like “from now on, only the original ballot that comes with each member’s election issue of Parachutist will be valid.”

This was not a housekeeping item; this was a policy change. More importantly, it was a policy change that outlawed a long-practiced election tactic: director candidates carrying photocopies of a blank ballot around the drop zone, encouraging people to vote on the spot with one of the photocopied ballots.

The practice was not only approved but encouraged because of USPA’s 30,000-some members, no more than ten percent actually vote in the elections – a significant fraction on photocopied ballots furnished by director candidates.

The problem with this method is that some overenthusiastic candidates pre-mark the ballots with their own names and/or those of their preferred “slate” of candidates (you can vote for up to eight national directors plus one regional director candidate). Then they photocopy them and hand them… or they have a member sign a blank ballot that then shows up at USPA headquarters with selections marked in different ink.

There are other irregularities that periodically pop up too, and so, in the interests of cleaner results and greater participation, the board decided some time ago that, for the 2008 election, members could choose to vote online or only on the ballot that came with their association magazine.

The conversion process, however, turned out to be longer and more expensive than expected and so there was no way within the available timeframe and budget to make online voting happen in 2008.

So the board decided to stay with paper this election cycle and then somewhere along the line, either in committee or in the recesses of Larry (Bagley’s) mind, it was decided to at least clean up the paper process by getting rid of the problematical photocopied ballots because they were going to do that when they went online anyway.

Unfortunately, this was another idea that seemed to be a good one at the time – and it got worse from there.

First, it was buried among 50-some other minor tweaks in the governance manual that had been called “housekeeping” changes. As such, it was overlooked in the rush to deal with more important business – all when everyone was sick of looking at each other and mostly either looking at their watches or already on their way out the door.

Second, it was fundamentally unnecessary because, while it was a little messy, it had worked fine and there was no reason to change it for only one election cycle.

Finally, getting rid of photocopies but not going online was likely to result in an even smaller voter turnout – maybe as low as one or two percent.

So while there was indeed discussion and most likely an actual vote to accept the motion and all of the “housekeeping” changes, many board members didn’t realize what they’d done until they got to Orlando (in February 2008).

Consequently, things got stormy again because it seemed as if BJ and Larry, in assumed collusion with Glenn, of course, tried to slide one by the board and the membership to further their private agendas.

It got to the point where even the smooth and usually unflappable BJ started barking about the merciless pounding they were all taking from online and other… personalities who are just as certain as their elected representatives that they are absolutely right about everything all the time.

Even Larry started complaining. And Larry -- who, before becoming an employee of the association, served on its board and as its president for multiple terms -- has heard it all so many times before that such abuse normally rolls off his back like water off a duck.

But this time some of it stuck, especially because Larry was on the hot seat for demanding changes based on conditions for which he had no proof (the suspect ballots were destroyed by rule after a previous meeting) meaning another secret was in play.

So Larry barked too and soon there were more denunciations and calls to quit directed at him, BJ and Glenn, calls for Jan to be made USPA president, for all the bums to be thrown out so a new generation could do a better job.

The storm has not yet dissipated, either. The photocopy ballot prohibition was not repealed at the February board meeting, so efforts are now afoot by disapproving board members and rank-and-file members alike to make sure it’s repealed at the next board meeting.
END EXCERPT


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jun 30, 2010, 7:11 PM
Post #50 of 140 (1182 views)
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That looks pretty accurate except that it is past history.

It is best saved for election time. Members wanted change in '08 and they got it. Glen is not President, BJ no longer Chairs N&E and Larry Bagley is no longer an advisor to N&E. The problems you mention are, in my opinion, resolved, for now. You got your change so give those of us who are trying to overcome things you mention a break. You are forgetting a major force in the change.....Jay Stokes. He can be trusted.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Edited to add: I speak for myself as a USPA member and for no one else, certainly not the association.


(This post was edited by EDYDO on Jun 30, 2010, 7:26 PM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jun 30, 2010, 7:50 PM
Post #51 of 140 (1576 views)
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In reply to:
That looks pretty accurate except that it is past history.

It is best saved for election time. Members wanted change in '08 and they got it. Glen is not President, BJ no longer Chairs N&E and Larry Bagley is no longer an advisor to N&E. The problems you mention are, in my opinion, resolved, for now. You got your change so give those of us who are trying to overcome things you mention a break. You are forgetting a major force in the change.....Jay Stokes. He can be trusted.

+1 on Jay!

But, prez or not, he's only one guy and if you look at what started this thread, it was a propaganda missive from, you guessed it, BJ Worth, the guy who "no longer Chairs N&E."

And if you look at the USPA masthead, it still carries the name of Larry Bagley, who "is no longer an advisor to N&E."

So please give us a break, Ed. Their titles may change and their chairs may move, but the bottom line remains the same:

BJ is still in this up to his eyeballs and until Bags cashes his last USPA check, he'll be sneaking around the back rooms doing his little tricks the same way he has for 20 years.

Cool


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jun 30, 2010, 11:41 PM
Post #52 of 140 (1551 views)
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In reply to:
The way this should have gone down: EVERY one of these details should have been ironed out and disclosed to the voting membership PRIOR to asking for a proxy.
Well, now he brings up a point that requires some thought. Some good arguments, some...
(Apparently, I'm standing on a powderkeg too. Unintentionally.)

One would think that there was some research, learning experience and study on the online voting systems. (After 2008 experience)


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jun 30, 2010, 11:44 PM)


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 1, 2010, 4:00 AM
Post #53 of 140 (1543 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay Robin,

Having read your past writings, I know we are on the same page. What I am trying to tell you is that the dynamics of the board has changed. In the end, you will believe what you wish to believe. There is another election this year and the members can make USPA whatever they want it to be.

I personally believe online voting is one tool to accomplish the best board we can possibly have. This proxy is your chance to make that possible. The members get what they want by their vote or in some cases what they don't want by not voting !!

What I am seeing as I travel is, better than 99% are in favor of this online voting proposal.

Note to JP: I am sure there is always more that could have been done, some of it is hindsight. Some of it is oversight. One thing I can tell you for sure is that USPA gets one heck of a deal, cost wise, from the work the members of the board do.....free.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Edited to add: I speak for no one other than myself as a USPA member.


(This post was edited by EDYDO on Jul 1, 2010, 4:15 AM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 1, 2010, 12:03 PM
Post #54 of 140 (1505 views)
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In reply to:
Okay Robin,

Having read your past writings, I know we are on the same page. What I am trying to tell you is that the dynamics of the board has changed. In the end, you will believe what you wish to believe. There is another election this year and the members can make USPA whatever they want it to be.

I personally believe online voting is one tool to accomplish the best board we can possibly have. This proxy is your chance to make that possible. The members get what they want by their vote or in some cases what they don't want by not voting !!

What I am seeing as I travel is, better than 99% are in favor of this online voting proposal.

Note to JP: I am sure there is always more that could have been done, some of it is hindsight. Some of it is oversight. One thing I can tell you for sure is that USPA gets one heck of a deal, cost wise, from the work the members of the board do.....free.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Edited to add: I speak for no one other than myself as a USPA member.

You're right, Ed; we are on the same page.

I too don't have a problem with online voting per se but as JP, Jerry and Paul have pointed out, there are issues with this proxy initiative, all of which are compounded by the presence of BJ and Bagley in the process, no matter how peripheral.

Moreover, I am especially leery of being told that this is so urgent that we need to do this proxy vote RIGHT NOW.

The current system can be improved, but it has worked reasonably well for a long time, soooo...

What exactly is the hurry?

Why exactly can this not be done according to the normal procedures of the association board?

Absent any compelling and persuasive answers to these questions, the proxy plan indeed needs to be cancelled, and the online voting system moved forward in a more legitimate way.

Cool

p.s. I concur also with your reminder of the work done by BOD members for free. Other than the two people I've singled out due to their previous conduct on this issue, I'm reasonably sure everyone is working for the best interests of the membership and the sport. It's just that whenever a governing body deviates from regular procedures because "urgent action" is needed due to some kind of "emergency." things generally get worse, regardless of motivation and/or intent.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 2, 2010, 3:52 AM
Post #55 of 140 (1472 views)
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Robin,

Good questions, fair questions and I will do my best to explain.

Paragraph 1: There is no urgency to have online voting. If the members want it, there are fringe benefits, such as having an independent third party counting ballots. Are you aware that one of the parties you so distrust was IN CHARGE of counting the ballots for years??? Man, I would like to fix that possibility and this proxy will do it. (That person does not presently count ballots.) I just think there is the appearance of possible wrong doing, not that anything actually has been done that was improper. We should avoid that appearance.

Paragraph 2: The urgency only stems from the fact that we are getting down to the wire and there is a time limit on the proxy vote, July 17, I believe. If you look at what has been done, online voting has not been rushed at all. The process began when John Goswitz was Chair of N&E back in '05 I believe. It has continued until this day with discussions, tests and research.

Paragraph 3: Has the present voting system worked well? My policy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Many would argue that it is broken and I am one of those. The last election brought less than 10% vote from the members. Actually I think it was 7%. Then we have complaints from you and others that board members are being less than honest in their duties. Man, in my opinion, that's broken.

Paragraph 5: There has been a lot written about procedures. I believe this proxy is the procedure called for under the circumstances. The board wants to make some changes in the By-Laws that require original signatures on ballots and election by mail. The By-Laws prohibit the board from making changes that relate to their own election. That can only be done by a quorum of the members. So, to the best of my knowledge, this is the proper and legitimate procedure spelled out for us by our founders.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Disclaimer: I speak for myself as a member of USPA and for no other person or entity.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 2, 2010, 8:04 AM
Post #56 of 140 (1453 views)
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In reply to:
Robin,

Good questions, fair questions and I will do my best to explain.

Paragraph 1: There is no urgency to have online voting. If the members want it, there are fringe benefits, such as having an independent third party counting ballots. Are you aware that one of the parties you so distrust was IN CHARGE of counting the ballots for years??? Man, I would like to fix that possibility and this proxy will do it. (That person does not presently count ballots.) I just think there is the appearance of possible wrong doing, not that anything actually has been done that was improper. We should avoid that appearance.

Paragraph 2: The urgency only stems from the fact that we are getting down to the wire and there is a time limit on the proxy vote, July 17, I believe. If you look at what has been done, online voting has not been rushed at all. The process began when John Goswitz was Chair of N&E back in '05 I believe. It has continued until this day with discussions, tests and research.

Paragraph 3: Has the present voting system worked well? My policy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Many would argue that it is broken and I am one of those. The last election brought less than 10% vote from the members. Actually I think it was 7%. Then we have complaints from you and others that board members are being less than honest in their duties. Man, in my opinion, that's broken.

Paragraph 5: There has been a lot written about procedures. I believe this proxy is the procedure called for under the circumstances. The board wants to make some changes in the By-Laws that require original signatures on ballots and election by mail. The By-Laws prohibit the board from making changes that relate to their own election. That can only be done by a quorum of the members. So, to the best of my knowledge, this is the proper and legitimate procedure spelled out for us by our founders.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Disclaimer: I speak for myself as a member of USPA and for no other person or entity.

Hmmm...

you're starting to convince me.

let me ponder for a while.

Cool


MakeItHappen

Jul 2, 2010, 3:21 PM
Post #57 of 140 (1428 views)
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In reply to:
Jan, I am certain I posted this before. The base price of the plan under consideration is $14,995 and we get unlimited elections for one year for whatever purpose needed. There are extras if we choose to purchase them such as entering paper ballots into the system. My thoughts are that this will cost less than $20 k per election. That is less than the price of a postage stamp per member per year to put it in perspective.

Ed, you and I agree on this. We both think that the cost is about 15-20K. However, Mr. DeSantis did call me the other day and said it was $35K. John is on the BOD, just like you, and has additional information that I don't have. If a BOD member says such-n-such costs so much, I'd believe that person. The motion passed at the winter mtg did have a dollar amount attached to it. but when it appeared in the minutes as
Quote:
Motion 28: Passed, 15/3/1 (Mr. Dixon)
“Motion to allow the Executive Director to negotiate and purchase the E-Ballot system for the
purpose of allowing online voting in the 2010 General Election as soon as the required number of
proxies are received.”
it did not have a dollar amount attached to it. Why is that?
The way that motion reads gives the ED a blank check to spend whatever on an online balloting system.
I do not think that was the intention of the BOD.

So Ed, could you double check with HQ on what the costs are?
And just so we are on the same sheet of paper, you are talking about giving the entire membership roster to the vendor and getting charged per member as opposed to just getting charged for members that optin for online voting, that could be around 2000 members.

In reply to:
Many of the things you state as fact and complain about haven't even been settled yet. We are seeking the best solutions. That is the reason I ask for constructive information.

The security issues need to be addressed beforehand and made failsafe.
I mentioned this way back in 2008.
USPA is not addressing the security issues.
USPA is not doing a test case first.

In reply to:
I recall something I saw hanging in a business. "Arguing with some people is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Sooner or later you are going to realize it is what the pig enjoys." So, I am going to let you continue with all of your "facts", undisturbed.

Ed, proper decorum is expected in meetings, but here on DZ.com no one has to follow that rule.
When you choose to insult members that express views different from your own, you show your true colors.

.


(This post was edited by MakeItHappen on Jul 2, 2010, 8:50 PM)


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 3, 2010, 4:39 AM
Post #58 of 140 (1397 views)
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In reply to:
Ed, proper decorum is expected in meetings, but here on DZ.com no one has to follow that rule.
When you choose to insult members that express views different from your own, you show your true colors.

Hey Jan,

I said I wasn't going to reply to your posts anymore because you so distort and misuse things I have said, but I need to respond to this.

I am not sure what you took from my post, but it was intended as a humorous way of saying that you just enjoy arguing.

Concerning the lesson in decorum, I believe I will decline that lesson based on the record and qualifications of the instructor. I recall February 2009, USPA Board meeting room, Reno Nevada. One Jan Meyer loudly saying, "Well F#*K YOU."

I am aware that sometimes things said in writing can appear to be given in a tone quite different from what is intended, so let me leave no doubt. I think this is funny and I am smiling and laughing at the irony.

Can we get back to the subject at hand. USPA needs more proxies, so please get them in. We are now down to the final days and every proxy counts. The link is below. You can scan, fax or send a camera photo to USPA. It will only take two minutes !!

Blue Skies,

Ed

Disclaimer: I speak for no one other than myself.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jul 7, 2010, 2:16 PM
Post #59 of 140 (1230 views)
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I did not mean to stir any pot, but it seems I have. I also have respect for Jan Mayer's helping tutor me into my first 100-way at Perris as a tutor/interpretor, and I also have respect for B.J. Worth for his positive accomplishments including the World Team and related matters, since I want to make it into future similar events)

I can't help to observe that the disagreement seems to be over details such as security issues, unexpected costs, the 2008 experience, etc. Even though most of the concerned people appear to be agreeing that if such issues were resolved, that online voting is a great idea. (feel free to clarify if I am wrong with my observations...)

It would appear that it could be be useful if some further details could be revealed. It sounds like an off-the-shelf voting solution is already chosen (the $14,995 base quote), would it be possible to disclose which of the systems it is, or at least be able to list its known security features? It sounds like more homework, at least, was done, than 2008. It sounds like an external already-developed solution because a base price is quoted (when excluding the add-on prices such as having to manually enter paper ballots). Does anyone know which online voting engine is being suggested so that people can check its credentials -- i.e. is it a well trusted system with a proven track record? Others appears to be bringing up 'concerns', so is there something that people don't know?


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jul 7, 2010, 2:24 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 7, 2010, 5:12 PM
Post #60 of 140 (1207 views)
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These questions have been posed, and no one is coming forth with answers. It's been my chief complaint with the BOD. Communications.

HQ is great with it, BOD not so much, save a handful of individuals. Thanks Ed, :-)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Jul 7, 2010, 6:35 PM
Post #61 of 140 (1207 views)
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I am curious to know what the count to date is. I have read this entire thread and have a fair grasp of the issues, but it might be a waste of time, effort, and money if the proxy should fail.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 8, 2010, 5:37 AM
Post #62 of 140 (1181 views)
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Uhhhhh, actually most if not all of these questions have been answered. Look at Jan's post #57, she gives the name of the system that is proposed. It is also in the Winter Meeting Minutes as Motion #28.

Security information was addressed, but it disappeared with the first thread on this subject. You will not find a more secure system. Still, security complaints seem pretty lame to me when no one is crying about how terrible the security is in what we presently are doing.

These guys do thousands of elections a year and have been doing it for many years with some high profile organizations. They are professionals and I trust them to get it right based on their past record. If we don't like it for any reason, it can be a one time deal or we can find a system that we like better.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Edited to add some information on security.

We have almost 1,300 customers including USA Traithlon, American Football Coaches Association, USA Taekwondo, Seattle Soccer, LLC, Ladies Professional Golf Association, National Reining Horse Association. We also work with five of the top 50 global law firms for partner voting, American Hospital Association, Tennessee Medical Association, Canadian Bar Association, Philadelphia Bar Association, plus a handful of Hollywood award shows. Probably the law firms and the Hollywood award shows have put us through the strictest security assessments and we have won them as longterm customers. Our SAS 70 certification means that we meet the approval of Ernst & Young, Price Waterhouse, and other leading accounting firms.


(This post was edited by EDYDO on Jul 8, 2010, 5:43 AM)


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jul 9, 2010, 5:48 PM
Post #63 of 140 (1025 views)
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In reply to:
Uhhhhh, actually most if not all of these questions have been answered. Look at Jan's post #57, she gives the name of the system that is proposed. It is also in the Winter Meeting Minutes as Motion #28.
I googled a few keywords from Jan's post #57, because it looked generic and did not seem to mention any brand names or company names. I realized that when Jan said "E-Ballot", she meant the commercial online voting system called eBallot, rather than generically as an electronic ballot. My bad.

Now I clearly know that the website of the off-the-shelf online voting system that USPA is proposing to use, is the following:
http://eballot.votenet.com/

Lest I inadvertently blow up another powderkeg, I have no comment about current level of security of current USPA voting processes, and comparision to this, but I am glad to know that a specific 'solution' has already been researched and chosen. And that it is one of the more well-known solutions used by many reputable companies, assocations and organizations. It would be one of the online voting products I would trust. Thanks for the clarification.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jul 9, 2010, 5:56 PM)


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 9, 2010, 6:22 PM
Post #64 of 140 (1008 views)
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In reply to:
I am glad to know that a specific 'solution' has already been researched and chosen. And that it is one of the more well-known solutions used by many reputable companies, assocations and organizations. It would be one of the online voting products I would trust. Thanks for the clarification.

Final request to everyone:

We are now down to the final few days. The proxies are being counted and validated. If you are so inclined as to support the improvement of USPA, please take the two minutes required and send in your proxy. Click the link below, print it out, sign and return to USPA via fax, or email. You can use that fancy new camera phone to do it if you choose, but please do it now.

Blue Skies,

Ed


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Jul 12, 2010, 4:53 PM
Post #65 of 140 (910 views)
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Hello Ed,

Do you know if we are close? The last I heard was on USPA News we needed 1100 or so.

Thank You,
Rich


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 13, 2010, 3:08 AM
Post #66 of 140 (863 views)
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In reply to:
Hello Ed,

Do you know if we are close? The last I heard was on USPA News we needed 1100 or so.

Thank You,
Rich


I understand we are VERY close with a few days remaining.

Ed


jsreznor  (C 38889)

Jul 13, 2010, 5:47 AM
Post #67 of 140 (850 views)
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De-sticky-ified???


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 12:28 PM
Post #68 of 140 (811 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Robin,

Good questions, fair questions and I will do my best to explain.

Paragraph 1: There is no urgency to have online voting. If the members want it, there are fringe benefits, such as having an independent third party counting ballots. Are you aware that one of the parties you so distrust was IN CHARGE of counting the ballots for years??? Man, I would like to fix that possibility and this proxy will do it. (That person does not presently count ballots.) I just think there is the appearance of possible wrong doing, not that anything actually has been done that was improper. We should avoid that appearance.

Paragraph 2: The urgency only stems from the fact that we are getting down to the wire and there is a time limit on the proxy vote, July 17, I believe. If you look at what has been done, online voting has not been rushed at all. The process began when John Goswitz was Chair of N&E back in '05 I believe. It has continued until this day with discussions, tests and research.

Paragraph 3: Has the present voting system worked well? My policy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Many would argue that it is broken and I am one of those. The last election brought less than 10% vote from the members. Actually I think it was 7%. Then we have complaints from you and others that board members are being less than honest in their duties. Man, in my opinion, that's broken.

Paragraph 5: There has been a lot written about procedures. I believe this proxy is the procedure called for under the circumstances. The board wants to make some changes in the By-Laws that require original signatures on ballots and election by mail. The By-Laws prohibit the board from making changes that relate to their own election. That can only be done by a quorum of the members. So, to the best of my knowledge, this is the proper and legitimate procedure spelled out for us by our founders.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Disclaimer: I speak for myself as a member of USPA and for no other person or entity.

Hmmm...

you're starting to convince me.

let me ponder for a while.

Cool


I've pondered, and I'm still totally against it.

There is too much uncertainty, and way - way - too much blank checkitis with this proposition; none of the Ts have been crossed or Is dotted.

It remains a mess, and its genesis comes from BJ Worth who started sniveling about voter fraud EXACTLY when his BOD vote totals started dropping from being at the top of the pack to being in the middle.

Mr. Worth further knows that that he can coerce online votes from his World Team flyers and (especially) the World Team wannabes, since this group is all computered up and availabel to vote for BJ if they want to have a chance to be on the $10,000 load.

Thus the fraud is not in the voting system as it exists but in the reasons for changing it, all spearheaded originally by BJ Worth in a desperate effort to remain on the board, and continued by him to this day with his coercive email to his World Team mailing list.

<paragraph deleted: dilatory>

Want MORE evidence of fraud, double-dealing and duplicity? Look at PARACHUTIST.

During the last few months, there has been a proxy thing in every or almost every issue - yet for the actual elections, going back years, the magazine posts the election bios and ballots in the November issue, then in the December issue DOES NOT REMIND people to vote.

Seems to me that before we do all this rigamarole with proxy votes and the undefined costs of online elections (est at the moment to be $35K per election compared to $2k - $4k for the current system), maybe USPA ought to just spend $0 to remind members in the Sept/October and December issues to vote.

That really is the big question here: If BJ and the Board members pushing this proxy are so "concerned" about low voter turnout, then why do they not do the simplest thing that costs ZERO money -- you know, REMIND people of the election and encourage them to vote?

Bottom line: This is bad juju that will cost the organization tens of thousands of dollars per election more than the current system -- tens of thousands of dollars that could instead be spent helping to gain, maintain and secure access for jumpers and protection against goofball legislators and freaked-out mothers of the dead.

Remember folks, this is the USPA, not the BJPA.

Cool


(This post was edited by robinheid on Jul 13, 2010, 1:37 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 13, 2010, 1:14 PM
Post #69 of 140 (790 views)
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>Personally, I think every proxy from a World Team member or wannabe
>should be disallowed because of the coercion represented by having the
>Chairman of the USPA board -- and the guy who will decide whether they
>can be on the $10,000 load -- "suggesting" that they vote for this
>half-baked proxy about an unnecessary change.

And don't forget to exclude people who want to make money from the sport. They certainly have a vested interest in lowering test standards. And of course current DZO's, instructors and video people - these are the people who actually make lots of money off the backs of other skydivers, and who might vote to give themselves more money by increasing currency requirements or something. Finally, we absolutely must exclude competitors. It goes without saying that they cannot be trusted to vote on anything that has to do with competition without putting their interests first.

That would leave the real skydivers - the people with a few dozen jumps who jump every once in a while, but don't follow competition, instruction, airport access or safety issues.

To be serious, the whole reason that USPA exists is to promote a special interest - skydiving. That includes BJ's World Team attempts, the Arizona Challenge that happens at Larry's DZ, Mike Mullin's high altitude King Air jumps, people who want to pass Jay Stoke's rating courses, and people who want to work with Scott Smth on stunts. Excluding people like that excludes the very people that USPA exists to serve.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 1:36 PM
Post #70 of 140 (782 views)
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In reply to:
>Personally, I think every proxy from a World Team member or wannabe
>should be disallowed because of the coercion represented by having the
>Chairman of the USPA board -- and the guy who will decide whether they
>can be on the $10,000 load -- "suggesting" that they vote for this
>half-baked proxy about an unnecessary change.

And don't forget to exclude people who want to make money from the sport. They certainly have a vested interest in lowering test standards. And of course current DZO's, instructors and video people - these are the people who actually make lots of money off the backs of other skydivers, and who might vote to give themselves more money by increasing currency requirements or something. Finally, we absolutely must exclude competitors. It goes without saying that they cannot be trusted to vote on anything that has to do with competition without putting their interests first.

That would leave the real skydivers - the people with a few dozen jumps who jump every once in a while, but don't follow competition, instruction, airport access or safety issues.

To be serious, the whole reason that USPA exists is to promote a special interest - skydiving. That includes BJ's World Team attempts, the Arizona Challenge that happens at Larry's DZ, Mike Mullin's high altitude King Air jumps, people who want to pass Jay Stoke's rating courses, and people who want to work with Scott Smth on stunts. Excluding people like that excludes the very people that USPA exists to serve.

You're right, BIll. Good catch.

I've deleted that part.

What do you think about the rest of it?

Cool


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 13, 2010, 1:40 PM
Post #71 of 140 (782 views)
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>What do you think about the rest of it?

I think a reminder to vote in the magazine would go a long way towards making people think about voting - and an online voting system would help make it easier to do so. Both are good solutions to the problem of voter apathy within USPA, IMO.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #72 of 140 (774 views)
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In reply to:
>What do you think about the rest of it?

I think a reminder to vote in the magazine would go a long way towards making people think about voting - and an online voting system would help make it easier to do so. Both are good solutions to the problem of voter apathy within USPA, IMO.

the only problem with the online voting "solution" its its exorbitant cost compared to the paper ballots.

You want to get more people to VOTE? Take the tens of thousands forecast to be spent ON EACH ELECTION - and use a portion of it to reduce by $5 the next year's membership fee of every USPA member who votes in the election.

If you got an extra 2000 people to vote, you would basically double the vote total for $10k extra -- far less than "The $35,000 Solution" -- and far - far -- more likely to get more votes than going online.

Cool


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jul 13, 2010, 2:05 PM
Post #73 of 140 (763 views)
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In reply to:
the only problem with the online voting "solution" its its exorbitant cost compared to the paper ballots.

The proxy form I signed did not bind the organization to any one solution. Signing the proxy gives the USPA authority to negotiate a system. I imagine whatever vendor they choose will get cheaper over time, or the organization will switch vendors.

Plus, If online voting brings in more voters, it's worth paying extra for.

_Am


Inspired  (B 35971)

Jul 13, 2010, 2:25 PM
Post #74 of 140 (752 views)
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In reply to:
You want to get more people to VOTE? Take the tens of thousands forecast to be spent ON EACH ELECTION - and use a portion of it to reduce by $5 the next year's membership fee of every USPA member who votes in the election.

If you got an extra 2000 people to vote, you would basically double the vote total for $10k extra -- far less than "The $35,000 Solution" -- and far - far -- more likely to get more votes than going online.

Cool

The convenience of online voting far outweighs the costs. Maybe your time isn't valuable to you, but mine is very valuable to me. You think a $5 savings is going to make a difference? You gotta be kidding. Unimpressed


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 3:01 PM
Post #75 of 140 (741 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
You want to get more people to VOTE? Take the tens of thousands forecast to be spent ON EACH ELECTION - and use a portion of it to reduce by $5 the next year's membership fee of every USPA member who votes in the election.

If you got an extra 2000 people to vote, you would basically double the vote total for $10k extra -- far less than "The $35,000 Solution" -- and far - far -- more likely to get more votes than going online.

Cool

The convenience of online voting far outweighs the costs. Maybe your time isn't valuable to you, but mine is very valuable to me. You think a $5 savings is going to make a difference? You gotta be kidding. Unimpressed

Dude,

you're an IT CONSULTANT -- of course online voting's easier for you.

Not everyone is a computer god or even turns theirs on every day.

This is another problem with the whole notion, and particularly in terms of the debate here, as a significant percentage of the USPA population does NOT lurk the dork zone, much less post to it:

Computer geeks think THEIR WAY is THE ONLY WAY.

And... it's NOT.

Just in the last two days, one of the hallowed articles of faith of the computer geek crowd -- that broadband access for poor kids will increase their test scores and educational success -- was smashed to smithereens when a study determined that the grades of poor kids go DOWN when exposed to broadband. Multiple reasons for this, of course, but the bottom line is: online ANYTHING is not a panacea for anything... and this is one case.

This whole debate started because BJ Worth was afraid he wouldn't be elected again as his vote total was dropping every election -- and he commands a big online army of regular and wannabe World Team members, so he screamed and whined and sniveled about "voter fraud" until he got the geeks in a tizzy to switch to online voting which, of course, would benefit him, but which has multiple unknown consequences for the organization and the overall integrity of the voting, the principal element being the actual number of participants.

Not to mention their quality and level of participation in the sport. There are a whole bunch of USPA members who seldom or never go to the DZ or otherwise keep up with what's going on in the sport.

Online voting means more keyboard terminators and less actual jumpers voting -- especially when you consider the number of paper ballots photocopied and handed out AT THE DZ during jump weekends by motivated candidates and THEIR minions.

And pulllleeeeze --- your "time" is "valuable"?

Right. It takes you the same amount of time to fill out the ballot online as it does to fill in the blanks on the paper -- and then it takes about the same amount of time to seal the envelope and stamp it and then drop it in your mailbox or the company mailbox and send it on its way as it does to fill out the online forms and stuff (which is ANOTHER dangling thread about which there is no discussion, no proposed form, or anything else).

This whole thing is illegitimate from the get go, so please don't try to justify it with bogus comments about your "valuable time."

Come on, tell me with a straight face that spending an order of magnitude more money to save YOU 30 seconds of your "valuable time" is worth diverting tens of thousands of membership dollars that could be better used gaining and maintaining access for jumping.

Propose a half-baked idea like that at your IT job and you'll be filing for unemployment in a week.

Cool


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 13, 2010, 3:29 PM
Post #76 of 140 (1039 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

>the only problem with the online voting "solution" its its exorbitant
>cost compared to the paper ballots.

I don't think that's the case. Online voting is inherently cheaper than filling out, mailing and counting paper ballots. You can spend as much as you want on either one, of course - but at the end of the day, online voting takes fewer resources.

>You want to get more people to VOTE? Take the tens of thousands forecast
>to be spent ON EACH ELECTION - and use a portion of it to reduce by $5 the
>next year's membership fee of every USPA member who votes in the
>election.

Not sure bribery is such a good solution to the problem. I mean, you just condemned BJ for coercing people to get an online system going, and you're proposing to buy people's votes to make sure online voting doesn't happen?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 13, 2010, 4:00 PM
Post #77 of 140 (1027 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Robin,
I'm not sure why you chose BJ as your whipping boy...but I happen to agree with him on this issue.
Computers/online access are the future. Mail as we know it is doomed. Parachutist as we know it is doomed.
Hell, I haven't had a physical newspaper delivered to my house in 5 years. The majority of my "big" purchases are online these days.
The future is here, and securing it for the USPA and its members is important. If this step isn't taken now, it will only become more of a burden and cost later. If anything, this diminishes the ability of the current board to be re-elected. The BOD may become a revolving door for a while due to the whims of elections being more accessible. But at least it allows elections to meet the current world and the ADD that accompanies modern society.
Face it, you're taking advantage of the very medium you're bitching about.


Inspired  (B 35971)

Jul 13, 2010, 5:01 PM
Post #78 of 140 (1009 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Computer geeks think THEIR WAY is THE ONLY WAY.

And... it's NOT.

Does online voting preclude paper balots? Please explain why paper balots can't also be accepted from those more technophobic among us.

In reply to:
Not to mention their quality and level of participation in the sport. There are a whole bunch of USPA members who seldom or never go to the DZ or otherwise keep up with what's going on in the sport.

Online voting means more keyboard terminators and less actual jumpers voting -- especially when you consider the number of paper ballots photocopied and handed out AT THE DZ during jump weekends by motivated candidates and THEIR minions.

REALLY?!?!? So how many jumps does a dues paying member have to make before they deserve a vote? Who gets to decide?

In reply to:
And pulllleeeeze --- your "time" is "valuable"?

Right. It takes you the same amount of time to fill out the ballot online as it does to fill in the blanks on the paper -- and then it takes about the same amount of time to seal the envelope and stamp it and then drop it in your mailbox or the company mailbox and send it on its way as it does to fill out the online forms and stuff (which is ANOTHER dangling thread about which there is no discussion, no proposed form, or anything else).

This whole thing is illegitimate from the get go, so please don't try to justify it with bogus comments about your "valuable time."

Come on, tell me with a straight face that spending an order of magnitude more money to save YOU 30 seconds of your "valuable time" is worth diverting tens of thousands of membership dollars that could be better used gaining and maintaining access for jumping.

Propose a half-baked idea like that at your IT job and you'll be filing for unemployment in a week.

Cool

If I proposed sticking with outdated and ineffective methods when much more effecient methods are available that would encourage better participation and reduce costs in the future, I would quickly loose my customer base.

Unimpressed


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 5:15 PM
Post #79 of 140 (1000 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>the only problem with the online voting "solution" its its exorbitant
>cost compared to the paper ballots.

I don't think that's the case. Online voting is inherently cheaper than filling out, mailing and counting paper ballots. You can spend as much as you want on either one, of course - but at the end of the day, online voting takes fewer resources.

>You want to get more people to VOTE? Take the tens of thousands forecast
>to be spent ON EACH ELECTION - and use a portion of it to reduce by $5 the
>next year's membership fee of every USPA member who votes in the
>election.

Not sure bribery is such a good solution to the problem. I mean, you just condemned BJ for coercing people to get an online system going, and you're proposing to buy people's votes to make sure online voting doesn't happen?

at the end of which day? check out what's being proposed.... $35K for ONE election compared to $2K -$4k for paper ballots.

as i have said before, i'm not opposed to online balloting; i strongly oppose the current process being used to achieve it, and suspect the motivations of its principal pusher, and have offered facts and history to support my position.

= = = =

buying votes is something one candidate does to ensure his election. rewarding people for participating in the general process is another thing entirely. when you compare spending tens of thousands of dollars in pursuit of an ephemeral "maybe" increase in voting numbers against a proportional and much less expensive individual incentive to achieve the same thing, just where exactly does that rank with the afore-described coercion?

You keep picking nits but never addressing the main point, bill, and while it's mildly entertaining, you're never gonna get anywhere here until you address the principal point, which is the fraud, deceit and duplicity that has accompanied this initiative since it began. It is the overall processes of governance in USPA with which I am most concerned, not the peripheral minutiae upon which you consistently focus when addressing my posts.

Cool


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 13, 2010, 5:22 PM
Post #80 of 140 (992 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

> i'm not opposed to online balloting

OK cool.

> i strongly oppose the current process being used to achieve it

I'm fine with it; it's basically how it has to be done via our current rules.

>rewarding people for participating in the general process is another thing entirely.

Like I said, I am not in favor of buying ANYONE's vote, even if it's not for any one candidate. Voting should be easy for people to do; online voting accomplishes that. People who do NOT want to vote should not have to. I do not want USPA officials elected by people who get $5 for randomly checking a box.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 5:36 PM
Post #81 of 140 (988 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Robin,
I'm not sure why you chose BJ as your whipping boy....

then read my SKYDIVING excerpt higher up in the thread.

In reply to:
but I happen to agree with him on this issue.

as do i in general terms.

In reply to:
Computers/online access are the future. Mail as we know it is doomed. Parachutist as we know it is doomed.
Hell, I haven't had a physical newspaper delivered to my house in 5 years. The majority of my "big" purchases are online these days.
The future is here, and securing it for the USPA and its members is important.

nice speech douglas, and accurate, but not relevant. High-minded rhetoric aside, the devil is in the details, and the process by which this change is being made threatens the integrity of the organization and its future. that is why i think this proxy vote should fail, and that we should not go forward with this great idea until the details are sharp and presented ahead of this proxy vote which is, in fact, fraudulent in itself because everyone who votes "no" has not been clearly told by the pushers of this action that their "no" voteis the same as a a "yes" vote because the very act of voting ADDS THEM TO THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE COUNTED TO MAKE A QUORUM.

Think about THAT fraud, Douglas; people think they are voting "no" on the proxy -- when in fact a "no" vote actually means YES too.

Fraud, pure and simple. Deceit and deception, pure and simple. And THAT counts way more to me than all of your soaring rhetoric.

In reply to:
If this step isn't taken now, it will only become more of a burden and cost later.

according to whom? Show me your evidence.


In reply to:
If anything, this diminishes the ability of the current board to be re-elected. The BOD may become a revolving door for a while due to the whims of elections being more accessible.

May? You "may" bounce on your next jump. Show me some empirical evidence that says we need to go forward with a fraudulent and flawed process in order to save the organization from a low voter turnout. Show me some FACTS that support anything you've said so far in this post.

In reply to:
But at least it allows elections to meet the current world and the ADD that accompanies modern society.

In the current world, 99.9 percent of all elections for all purposes in all countries are done not online but with PAPER BALLOTS.

In reply to:
Face it, you're taking advantage of the very medium you're bitching about.

Sorry, Douglas, you're waxing rhetorical again. Please show me one place in this thread or any other where I'm going Luddite about the medium - just one. I say again, the END of online voting per se is not my concern; it is the fraudulent and corrupt MEANS by which B.J. Worth, Larry Bagley and certain others are trying to impose it.

If you want to corrupt USPA's PROCESS by seeking to justify the means with the end, be my guest. Just don't try to dress it up with blah blah about the future because that's a very old argument.

Cool


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 5:53 PM
Post #82 of 140 (979 views)
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Re: [Inspired] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Computer geeks think THEIR WAY is THE ONLY WAY.

And... it's NOT.

Does online voting preclude paper balots? Please explain why paper balots can't also be accepted from those more technophobic among us.

In reply to:
as i understand it, we would still do the whole paper ballot thing TOO, which further increases the cost.

In reply to:
Not to mention their quality and level of participation in the sport. There are a whole bunch of USPA members who seldom or never go to the DZ or otherwise keep up with what's going on in the sport.

Online voting means more keyboard terminators and less actual jumpers voting -- especially when you consider the number of paper ballots photocopied and handed out AT THE DZ during jump weekends by motivated candidates and THEIR minions.

REALLY?!?!? So how many jumps does a dues paying member have to make before they deserve a vote? Who gets to decide?

In reply to:
sorry, non sequitur. please re-read that section again until you understand it.

In reply to:
And pulllleeeeze --- your "time" is "valuable"?

Right. It takes you the same amount of time to fill out the ballot online as it does to fill in the blanks on the paper -- and then it takes about the same amount of time to seal the envelope and stamp it and then drop it in your mailbox or the company mailbox and send it on its way as it does to fill out the online forms and stuff (which is ANOTHER dangling thread about which there is no discussion, no proposed form, or anything else).

This whole thing is illegitimate from the get go, so please don't try to justify it with bogus comments about your "valuable time."

Come on, tell me with a straight face that spending an order of magnitude more money to save YOU 30 seconds of your "valuable time" is worth diverting tens of thousands of membership dollars that could be better used gaining and maintaining access for jumping.

Propose a half-baked idea like that at your IT job and you'll be filing for unemployment in a week.

Cool

If I proposed sticking with outdated and ineffective methods when much more effecient methods are available that would encourage better participation and reduce costs in the future, I would quickly loose my customer base.

Unimpressed

so if you propose something "new" and "cutting edge" to your customers -- that costs an order of magnitude more than the old, ineffective methods which have worked fine for decades, you'd keep your customers? How would you keep your customers if you bankrupt them with your clever new ideas?

See how well that worked for Spain when it proposed a whole bunch of cutting edge "green" technologies that the govt had to subsidize to the tune of $250k per job -- and now the country is bankrupt -- but hey, WTF -- they were thinking ahead, thinking about new. more efficient tech, so what's a little detail like bankruptcy when you have only the best of intentions?

You see, that's the problem with peeps such as yourself and Ed Dixon. I don't question your motives and I know for a fact that Ed has only the best of intentions, and I'm pretty sure Bill von and Douglas are right there with you guys.

But good intentions don't mean anything; results do.

And it is my view based on facts and knowledge of the people and processes involved -- documented facts and knowledge, that all the high-minded hoohah about "going online" with USPA voting simply ignores or tries to camouflage the fraud, deceit and deception being used to accomplish it - and it is that DOCUMENTED fraud, deceit and deception that leads me to oppose this proxy vote. Period.


Cool


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 13, 2010, 6:21 PM
Post #83 of 140 (971 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

>so if you propose something "new" and "cutting edge" to your
>customers -- that costs an order of magnitude more than the old,
>ineffective methods which have worked fine for decades, you'd keep your
>customers?

I think companies have done pretty well with "new" "cutting edge" online ordering. Can't say as I can think of a single company that has refused to use the expensive internet and stuck purely to mail order - and is still in business. Can you?


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jul 13, 2010, 6:37 PM
Post #84 of 140 (964 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Couldn't that Nataly chic up in "Bonfire" just post another poll and we could all vote there?????TongueWinkCoolSly


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 13, 2010, 6:41 PM
Post #85 of 140 (960 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Robin,
I'm not sure why you chose BJ as your whipping boy....

then read my SKYDIVING excerpt higher up in the thread.

In reply to:
but I happen to agree with him on this issue.

as do i in general terms.

In reply to:
Computers/online access are the future. Mail as we know it is doomed. Parachutist as we know it is doomed.
Hell, I haven't had a physical newspaper delivered to my house in 5 years. The majority of my "big" purchases are online these days.
The future is here, and securing it for the USPA and its members is important.

nice speech douglas, and accurate, but not relevant. High-minded rhetoric aside, the devil is in the details, and the process by which this change is being made threatens the integrity of the organization and its future. that is why i think this proxy vote should fail, and that we should not go forward with this great idea until the details are sharp and presented ahead of this proxy vote which is, in fact, fraudulent in itself because everyone who votes "no" has not been clearly told by the pushers of this action that their "no" voteis the same as a a "yes" vote because the very act of voting ADDS THEM TO THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE COUNTED TO MAKE A QUORUM.

Think about THAT fraud, Douglas; people think they are voting "no" on the proxy -- when in fact a "no" vote actually means YES too.

Fraud, pure and simple. Deceit and deception, pure and simple. And THAT counts way more to me than all of your soaring rhetoric.

In reply to:
If this step isn't taken now, it will only become more of a burden and cost later.

according to whom? Show me your evidence.


In reply to:
If anything, this diminishes the ability of the current board to be re-elected. The BOD may become a revolving door for a while due to the whims of elections being more accessible.

May? You "may" bounce on your next jump. Show me some empirical evidence that says we need to go forward with a fraudulent and flawed process in order to save the organization from a low voter turnout. Show me some FACTS that support anything you've said so far in this post.

In reply to:
But at least it allows elections to meet the current world and the ADD that accompanies modern society.

In the current world, 99.9 percent of all elections for all purposes in all countries are done not online but with PAPER BALLOTS.

In reply to:
Face it, you're taking advantage of the very medium you're bitching about.

Sorry, Douglas, you're waxing rhetorical again. Please show me one place in this thread or any other where I'm going Luddite about the medium - just one. I say again, the END of online voting per se is not my concern; it is the fraudulent and corrupt MEANS by which B.J. Worth, Larry Bagley and certain others are trying to impose it.

If you want to corrupt USPA's PROCESS by seeking to justify the means with the end, be my guest. Just don't try to dress it up with blah blah about the future because that's a very old argument.

Cool

Ditto.
Nice speechdiatribe.
And wrong from so many directions.
This proxy allows for one thing, and one thing only. It allows the USPA to proceed with a measure to perpetuate the opportunity to vote online. Nothing more.
I did read your drivel regarding the people you have issues with. And fail to see how you're connecting the dots that you've woven from personal emotion.
There is nothing corrupt about any of the people you've slandered, IMO. I don't know them as well as you, but I've spent a fair amount of time with them. For those that don't know these gentlement (OK, there is nothing "gentle" about Bagley), they have a passion for the sport and they show that passion.

Paper ballots are a thing of the past in almost every forward-looking organization and even government. I'm involved with organizations that have more on their national board than all of USPA. We went paperless a few years ago. It offers a greater membership participsation, and that's the overall goal. The "US" in USPA means just that. And while we'll likely see a higher turnover in the board for a while, I think that's a good thing. Lotsa deadwood in there with lots of young blood wanting to make changes.
You're right. I "may" bounce on my next skydive. Tying that to a bullshit statement about the online process being flawed and fraudulent is a much larger stretch, however.
There is no fraud in the USPA, for crissakes. There is a fair amount of stupidity, but fraud? Gimme a break.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 7:32 PM
Post #86 of 140 (942 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is no fraud in the USPA, for crissakes. There is a fair amount of stupidity, but fraud? Gimme a break.

You haven't been listening, Douglas.

The proxy process is a priori fraudulent in the way it's being conducted. period.

Really, show me where the perpetrators of this fraud have anywhere clearly explained that a "no" vote is the same as a "yes" vote in terms of being counted as a part of the number needed to establish a quorum.

Go ahead; show me.

Cool


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 13, 2010, 7:37 PM
Post #87 of 140 (940 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The proxy process is a priori fraudulent in the way it's being conducted. period.


Cool

So you keep saying.
It's not mine to prove. I voted my desires, and I clearly believe I understand the process.
I was there when the motion was passed, and was very clear on what the motion contained and allowed for.
Keep claiming it's fraudulent all you may, but until you provide evidence that goes beyond "Robin said so"....I'm not buying. Besides...my vote has been cast.
You and Prince would make a great couple right about now. You both are equally correct about the Internet.LaughTongue


tdog  (D 28800)

Jul 13, 2010, 8:38 PM
Post #88 of 140 (920 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Robin,

I have seen over the years DZOs (more than one, and one very well known one) put ballots for them, or petitions for them, at the manifest window and instructed the staff to have every jumper fill it out...

I also have seen a skydiver give addressed, postage paid envelopes to skydivers with ballots. I also have seen a skydiver give ballots and ask the voters to seal them in the provided envelope and drop in the box they provided so they could ship/mail the entire batch. Doing so got you freebies.

That has skewed results.

I have also seen, for an example, a military skydiver with many students under his program get elected, with others refusing to run against him saying, "if I got every fun jumper at 3 different DZs to vote for me, I could not get enough votes to outnumber his students." Now, I am NOT SAYING THIS GUY'S CLAIM IS TRUE OR THAT HIS STUDENTS ONLY VOTED FOR HIM - but, these are the reasons we need online voting... A way for the average joe (and even my 90 year old grandmother wants an email address now), to vote, in an easy way, for the person they think meets their needs.


brettski74  (C 3197)

Jul 13, 2010, 9:22 PM
Post #89 of 140 (914 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The proxy process is a priori fraudulent in the way it's being conducted. period.

So basically you're saying that in your opinion, it's fraudulent, but there are no actual facts to back up that position. It's good that you cleared that up.

In reply to:
Really, show me where the perpetrators of this fraud have anywhere clearly explained that a "no" vote is the same as a "yes" vote in terms of being counted as a part of the number needed to establish a quorum.

I wasn't aware that part of the USPA BOD's function was to provide english lessons. BJ's email message - posted in the very first post of this thread - states that
Quote:
a quorum of 10% of the membership must vote to make such a change to our voting process.

What else do you expect? A dictionary definition of the word "quorum"?

Your comment that a "no" vote is essentially a yes vote is misleading. This is quorum busting - a minority voting tactic that only makes sense when you're sure you're going to lose the vote. To me that says you're well aware that the majority of USPA is likely to support this measure but you don't care about the will of the membership, just your own agenda. The USPA BOD should be encouraging everyone to vote regardless of their position, as that will give a more representative answer on where the will of the membership really is, regardless of the outcome, but I'm sure if it scrapes through on just 3200 votes you'll be able to feel better by talking about your silent majority.

I'm not sure if the actual text of the by-law changes is available anywhere. It wasn't on the proxy form that I saw, so if the full text is not available, it really should be, but that's about the only point I can agree with you on - That and you also seem to agree that online voting would be a step forward.

As for this being a self-serving move on BJ's part, I think that's highly speculative on your part. Sure, he has a lot of friends from his big-way organizing and other achievements, but there's a helluva lot more people who've never met BJ and young skydivers who've never heard of him who also have a computer. I'd be curious to hear DSE's experience from those other organisations he's worked with that went from paper ballots to electronic voting and how that affected voter participation. If electronic voting pushes voter participation from the current level which is below 10% to something like 50% or more, even with a couple thousand people on BJ's mailing list there is the very real chance that electronic voting may spell an earlier end to his time on the board. It seems to me that if BJ did want to use coercion to extend his time on the board, he'd be better off sticking with paper ballots and sending inducements to his list to get more of them to participate in the existing paper ballot system. That approach has a much lower risk of drawing into the election the vast majority of voters who have no special reason to support him. Your argument just doesn't make that much sense to me.


(This post was edited by brettski74 on Jul 13, 2010, 10:45 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 13, 2010, 10:44 PM
Post #90 of 140 (901 views)
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Re: [brettski74] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

The two broadcast organizations (one national, the other international) claim participation changed by nearly 400%.
The first election via electronic means was a phone-in/keypad entry. That term, there were only two standing from previous administrations.
There is no one on the current board who is going to benefit from electronic voting, IMO.
From the USPA website:
Quote:
An Important Notice to USPA Members
A Call for the Meeting and a Notice to Amend

On July 16, 2010, at 7 p.m. at the Crowne Plaza Hotel Nashua, located at 2 Somerset Parkway, Nashua, NH 03063, USPA will host an annual general membership meeting. All members in good standing are invited and urged to attend. If you cannot attend, you are urged to complete the adjoining proxy to allow an important change to USPA’s by-laws. USPA is initiating this proxy effort to change its by-laws to allow the use of an online voting process for electing its board of directors. The online voting process would be in addition to the current and continuing use of paper ballots for the election.

Like all associations, USPA has a set of self-developed by-laws that codify certain aspects of how the association will be run, including how elections for the board of directors are to be conducted. As is also common, certain parts of USPA’s by-laws are subject to change by a two-thirds majority of the board (not always as easy as you might think), while other parts, specifically anything dealing with board elections, can only be changed by a quorum of the membership at a general membership meeting. Getting a quorum of USPA members, specified by the by-laws as 10 percent of the membership, isn’t easy either. In fact, since USPA’s annual general membership meetings generally attract only a few dozen members, getting a quorum is nearly impossible without a proxy effort.

USPA’s board election process occurs every two years, with 2010 being an "on" year. All 22 board seats—eight national directors and 14 regional directors—are up for grabs for those candidates who meet requirements. In general, the election process seems to work well, with one exception: Only about 10 percent of the membership typically votes. That means that some 3,200 members elect the 22 leaders that make decisions for all 32,000 of us.

A majority of the board of directors believes that if our by-laws are changed to allow secure online voting, then more members will participate in our board elections. Since USPA’s current by-laws require the use of paper ballots and the U.S. Postal Service for the election, the by-laws need revision to allow for other balloting methods. Importantly, approval of an online voting process will not end the use of paper ballots; every member’s issue of Parachutist will still contain a paper ballot, which may be completed and mailed. However, if the by-laws change is approved, members will also be allowed to simply log on to a secure website to vote.

Proposed Changes
USPA’s by-laws specify that election ballots contain the "original signature" of the voting member, and the ballots be "mailed." At its last meeting, the board of directors adopted the following motion, "Move to solicit proxies from the USPA general membership for the sole purpose of amending the USPA by-laws to allow online voting in the election of USPA directors."

As a result, USPA is now soliciting proxies in support of changing the by-laws to also allow online voting, in addition to the continuing use of paper ballots that can be returned by mail.

Explanation
When developed, USPA’s by-laws only contemplated the use of paper ballots returned by mail for election of the board of directors. If supported by affirmative proxies, the board would be authorized to change the by-laws to allow the use of online balloting in the conduct of board elections. The by-laws would continue to require the use of paper ballots; there is no proposal to do away with paper ballots.

Procedures
To meet the quorum requirement of 10 percent, approximately 3,200 members will need to be present or represented by proxy. A proxy is not technically a vote. Rather it is an authorization a member gives to another member to vote on his behalf. A member may assign his proxy to any member in good standing who will be present at the meeting. Typically in proxy solicitations, the proxy is given to an officer of the corporation in order to facilitate the validating and counting of the proxies. For this meeting and this proxy statement, the USPA Board of Directors Secretary has been selected as the person named on the proposed attached proxy statement.

For proxies to be valid, the person signing the statement must be an individual regular member of USPA on the date of record, which is established as June 30, 2010. Proxies may be sent to USPA at any time but must be received prior to the meeting. Members are encouraged to submit proxy statements at their earliest convenience in order to facilitate validation and counting.

When the USPA was created, no one had a glimmer of an idea that we'd ever be voting for anyone in or out of the USPA via our cell phones or computers in our homes. Back then, the word "computer" was an esoteric thing that only NASA and similar agencies could comprehend.

It's really not all that complex. It is IMPOSSIBLE to expect 3200 people showing up at a BOD meeting. It's absurd (IMO), and it's an albatross in our current bylaws.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jul 14, 2010, 7:08 AM
Post #91 of 140 (874 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The proxy process is a priori fraudulent in the way it's being conducted. period.

So basically you're saying that in your opinion, it's fraudulent, but there are no actual facts to back up that position. It's good that you cleared that up.

In reply to:
Really, show me where the perpetrators of this fraud have anywhere clearly explained that a "no" vote is the same as a "yes" vote in terms of being counted as a part of the number needed to establish a quorum.

I wasn't aware that part of the USPA BOD's function was to provide english lessons. BJ's email message - posted in the very first post of this thread - states that
Quote:
a quorum of 10% of the membership must vote to make such a change to our voting process.

What else do you expect? A dictionary definition of the word "quorum"?

Your comment that a "no" vote is essentially a yes vote is misleading. This is quorum busting - a minority voting tactic that only makes sense when you're sure you're going to lose the vote. To me that says you're well aware that the majority of USPA is likely to support this measure but you don't care about the will of the membership, just your own agenda. The USPA BOD should be encouraging everyone to vote regardless of their position, as that will give a more representative answer on where the will of the membership really is, regardless of the outcome, but I'm sure if it scrapes through on just 3200 votes you'll be able to feel better by talking about your silent majority.

There has been a cry for votes from a variety of persons. Some of that cry has included the idea that failing to send a proxy, even if the proxy says "no", is apathetic.

But, in truth, if you stand on the "no" side, not sending the proxy is the best thing you can do. As such, it is not apathetic at all.

Calling an unsent proxy apathetic is what is essentially misleading. The goal of the misrepresentation is to have the "no" votes help establish the quorum. Sending in a "no" proxy will contribute to the quorum, and as such will help enable as little as 5.1% of the organization to pass this expensive measure.

To the best of my knowledge, I brought this issue up first, and it has never been mentioned by any of those who are calling for the proxies.

Say what you will, but it is clear that only a small portion of the membership has any interest. Were that not the case, there would be no question of getting the requisite 10% of the membership to send the proxy.

Saying that Robin and I don't care about the will of the membership is total nonsense.

If you and your friends pass this measure with 5.1% of the membership, it is you who are ignoring the will of 94.9% of the members, not Robin and me.

If nobody sends in a "no" proxy, at least you'll need 10% of the membership agreeing to pass this measure. Then you are only ignoring 90%.

If you can't even get that much done, don't tell me about how the majority of the membership is clamoring for this change.


brettski74  (C 3197)

Jul 14, 2010, 9:50 AM
Post #92 of 140 (844 views)
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In reply to:
But, in truth, if you stand on the "no" side, not sending the proxy is the best thing you can do. As such, it is not apathetic at all.

This is only true if you're sure you're going to lose. If you have a large majority, the best thing you can do is vote no.

In reply to:
If you and your friends pass this measure with 5.1% of the membership, it is you who are ignoring the will of 94.9% of the members, not Robin and me.

They are not being ignored. They are being given the opportunity to speak up and cast their vote like everyone else. It will be their choice if they choose not to vote.If nobody sends in a "no" proxy, at least you'll need 10% of the membership agreeing to pass this measure. Then you are only ignoring 90%.

If you can't even get that much done, don't tell me about how the majority of the membership is clamoring for this change.
I understand how quorum busting works but if you believe everything you say, then I'm not sure that you do. If there really was an overwhelming majority of no votes among the membership, your best strategy would be to encourage them to send in their votes. Why? Because if you have 50% or more of the membership sending in a "no" proxy, it doesn't matter how many yes votes they can gather, the measure is defeated. Let's say that you have an overwhelming majority of 89.9%. You would only need to convince 1 in 9 no voters to actually vote and there would be absolutely no way that the measure could be passed - not even if every single yes voter voted. By contrast to have any hope of passing at all, the yes votes would need to convince 1 in 2 of their number to vote while simultaneously relying on sufficient apathy from the no vote. Even if the margin was not so wide, if you're sure that you have a clear majority, you'd do better to encourage no voting rather than attempt to bust the quorum as that provides a much surer result that is in the control of the no vote.

If you really believe you have a clear majority of no voters, your strategy is flawed because by not voting, you're putting the outcome solely in the hands of everyone else. On the other hand, if this is the right strategy and you know that, then you must believe that you have very little chance of getting a majority of no votes. If you have such a clear majority behind you, why should that be so hard? If the majority of the membership is so against this change, why are they not clamouring to stop it?


(This post was edited by brettski74 on Jul 14, 2010, 10:15 AM)


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 14, 2010, 9:52 AM
Post #93 of 140 (843 views)
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In reply to:

But, in truth, if you stand on the "no" side, not sending the proxy is the best thing you can do. As such, it is not apathetic at all.

Calling an unsent proxy apathetic is what is essentially misleading. The goal of the misrepresentation is to have the "no" votes help establish the quorum. Sending in a "no" proxy will contribute to the quorum, and as such will help enable as little as 5.1% of the organization to pass this expensive measure.

If nobody sends in a "no" proxy, at least you'll need 10% of the membership agreeing to pass this measure. Then you are only ignoring 90%.

If you can't even get that much done, don't tell me about how the majority of the membership is clamoring for this change.

It is my humble and not yet fully informed opinion that the strategy and views you have proposed will prove to be flawed and the issues you mention concerning numbers will not exist.

Leaving for Manchester shortly so I am signing off for now. Come to the meeting if you can.

Blue Skies,

Ed


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jul 14, 2010, 11:11 AM
Post #94 of 140 (816 views)
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In reply to:
If you really believe you have a clear majority of no voters, your strategy is flawed because by not voting, you're putting the outcome solely in the hands of everyone else. On the other hand, if this is the right strategy and you know that, then you must believe that you have very little chance of getting a majority of no votes. If you have such a clear majority behind you, why should that be so hard? If the majority of the membership is so against this change, why are they not clamouring to stop it?

I never claimed that the majority of the membership wants to vote "no".

I never claimed that the majority of the voters wants to vote "no".

My only claim is that the vast majority of the membership doesn't care at all, and is therefore happy to leave things the way they are.

That being said, my suggestion is that "no" voters should not send a proxy, because sending the "no" proxy could have the effect of lowering the bar until as few as 5+% of the membership would pass the measure.

Since I do not see the need for the measure, I want to do whatever I can to be sure that the "yes" side must have at least 10% of the membership approving the measure.

You are satisfied with passing this measure with as little of the membership voting as possible.

I am not.

You can tell me what a horrible quorum buster I am until you are blue in the face.

I still want to see at least 10% of the membership approving before the measure goes forward.

Personally, I don't think you can get that. But, if you do, so be it.

I'm a lifetime member. It isn't going to raise my dues.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 14, 2010, 11:23 AM
Post #95 of 140 (811 views)
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Those that are against online voting seem to be advocates for substantial changes in how things are done at USPA (at least it seems they are).

I think that online voting will be much more likely to result in greater change in the leadership than sticking with the current paper ballots. Even though the knowledge of issues that the average on-line voting member will have will likely be reduced compared to those in the past that have taken the trouble to fill out and send a paper ballot, we're still more likely to have more change result. The current leadership should actually be commended for advocating this, because they would be more secure with the current system.

That is why I'm in favor of on-line voting, because it will likely shake things up.


MakeItHappen

Jul 14, 2010, 12:52 PM
Post #96 of 140 (789 views)
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Re: [] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Some just general FYI info
from various sources....

If you sent in a proxy that had a No vote, that will be used to determine whether or not a quorum is established.

IOW, your 'No' vote may lead to the passing of the 'yes' version because you help establish a quorum, if the cumulative number of proxies received turn that way.
If you do not want this initiative to go forward, the best answer is to 'do not send in a proxy'.
If you have sent in a proxy, revoke it.
You may at any time revoke your proxy until the meeting.
It has been mentioned to me by numerous sources that if you wish to revoke your proxy, that you copy a BOD member.
They can then verify the authenticity of the GMM vote.
You may revoke your vote by sending an email stating such to USPA HQ - cc a BOD member or two would be good too.

You may also contact/copy me on these issues.

.


Inspired  (B 35971)

Jul 14, 2010, 6:50 PM
Post #97 of 140 (743 views)
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In reply to:
Some just general FYI info
from various sources....

If you sent in a proxy that had a No vote, that will be used to determine whether or not a quorum is established.

IOW, your 'No' vote may lead to the passing of the 'yes' version because you help establish a quorum, if the cumulative number of proxies received turn that way.
If you do not want this initiative to go forward, the best answer is to 'do not send in a proxy'.
If you have sent in a proxy, revoke it.
You may at any time revoke your proxy until the meeting.
It has been mentioned to me by numerous sources that if you wish to revoke your proxy, that you copy a BOD member.
They can then verify the authenticity of the GMM vote.
You may revoke your vote by sending an email stating such to USPA HQ - cc a BOD member or two would be good too.

You may also contact/copy me on these issues.

.

That's bullshit. A 'YES' means yes. A 'NO' means no. If enough people vote, we get a good sampling of the wishes of the membership. Plain and simple.

Trying to get your way by encouraging people to shut down the voting system by abstaining and preventing a quarum is just wrong. And by doing it, YOU become part of the problem.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jul 15, 2010, 5:09 AM
Post #98 of 140 (706 views)
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In reply to:
That's bullshit. A 'YES' means yes. A 'NO' means no. If enough people vote, we get a good sampling of the wishes of the membership. Plain and simple.

Trying to get your way by encouraging people to shut down the voting system by abstaining and preventing a quarum is just wrong. And by doing it, YOU become part of the problem.

Well, that's bullshit too.

Passing an expensive measure on as little as 5+% of the membership, when 90% chose not to vote, and the other 5% said "no", is not listening to the wishes of the membership.

The way I count, that comes to 95% of the membership did not say "yes" and 5% did.

That's not a representative sample.

The system is the system. Knowing how to most effective use the system is part of the system too.

Stop whining. Stop telling me I am part of the problem. I am a voter, and I am using my vote to my own best advantage.

If you have so much support, get them to vote "yes".

You don't even need a majority of the membership. All you need to do is to get 10% of the members to say "yes", and the action passes.

I don't think that is anything like a majority, do you?

But still, that's the system we have. I know how to play my side, you know how to play yours.

If this is so damned important, just get 10% of the members to say so, and we'll go along.


loudtom  (D 23115)

Jul 15, 2010, 5:34 AM
Post #99 of 140 (697 views)
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You are spouting bullshit too.
It is clearly stated that no votes help make a qorum...
what part of that do you not get?


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jul 15, 2010, 8:45 AM
Post #100 of 140 (660 views)
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Re: [loudtom] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Wait, wait, wait... I'm missing something here...

There are people here who do not like the incumbent USPA Board and want them voted out.

The same people (more or less, with a few exceptions) are saying that they want to vote "no" to the idea of on line voting.

From the point of view of the anti-incumbent folks, part of the problem they face is the fact that only 10% of the membership votes - and they tend to reelect the same board (the ones the anti-incumbent folks don't like), right?

On line voting is a well documented means of increasing voter participation.

So, in short, the anti-incumbent folks should be crapping themselves in joy over the notion that - if the proposal passes - lots more folks might vote (and therefore increase the probability that the people they don't like get voted out).

Honestly? If I were a bad Board director, the LAST thing I'd want is to have this proposal pass, because it would increase the probability I'd get voted out.

(As full disclaimer of my position, I don't care if the USPA Board stays the same, changes, or is replaced entirely by lizard people. It just doesn't matter to me. As a corporate lawyer, though, I think sticking with paper ballots is archaic and silly.)

- Jeff

P.S., as a lawyer who has worked on proxy solicitations, I can confirm that the grant of authority is not overly broad under New York law - it would basically require the Secretary to vote in favor of the proposed amendment to the by laws. Anything beyond that would exceed the scope of authority granted by the proxy...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 15, 2010, 8:47 AM
Post #101 of 140 (1482 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

>The way I count, that comes to 95% of the membership did not say "yes" and 5% did.

By that logic, 95% of the membership does not say "yes" to _any_ elected official - so none should ever be elected.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jul 15, 2010, 8:48 AM
Post #102 of 140 (1482 views)
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This statement

Quote:
Proxy voting is acceptable in organizations were the members have transferable rights or privileges, such as stock in a company.

Citation, please. It's patently false - many member-based (non-transferable) organizations have proxy voting. It's merely a tool by which an individual can empower another to cast a vote on his or her behalf. What on God's green earth does that have to do with transferable rights or privileges?


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jul 15, 2010, 9:00 AM
Post #103 of 140 (1473 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wait, wait, wait... I'm missing something here...

There are people here who do not like the incumbent USPA Board and want them voted out.

The same people (more or less, with a few exceptions) are saying that they want to vote "no" to the idea of on line voting.

From the point of view of the anti-incumbent folks, part of the problem they face is the fact that only 10% of the membership votes - and they tend to reelect the same board (the ones the anti-incumbent folks don't like), right?

On line voting is a well documented means of increasing voter participation.

So, in short, the anti-incumbent folks should be crapping themselves in joy over the notion that - if the proposal passes - lots more folks might vote (and therefore increase the probability that the people they don't like get voted out).

Honestly? If I were a bad Board director, the LAST thing I'd want is to have this proposal pass, because it would increase the probability I'd get voted out.

(As full disclaimer of my position, I don't care if the USPA Board stays the same, changes, or is replaced entirely by lizard people. It just doesn't matter to me. As a corporate lawyer, though, I think sticking with paper ballots is archaic and silly.)

- Jeff

P.S., as a lawyer who has worked on proxy solicitations, I can confirm that the grant of authority is not overly broad under New York law - it would basically require the Secretary to vote in favor of the proposed amendment to the by laws. Anything beyond that would exceed the scope of authority granted by the proxy...

All you say may be true.

So then, how do you explain that it is exactly some of the board who are asking for this change? That would seem, by your analysis, to be suspicious, no?

Actually, that doesn't get my attention.

My reason for not supporting online voting is the cost/benefit analysis as it appears to me.

Greater participation from the voters may be a side effect, but it does not necessarily suggest better participation.

No matter what the issues, I prefer sincerely interested voters over casual unstudied voters. Whether my side wins or loses, I prefer that the people who vote have taken the time to make the vote meaningful.

We already have a membership that does not take the time to send a paper ballot. There's no reason to expect that the online voters will do any better, and the cost is a lot higher than what we spend now.

Should more unstudied voters start voting, it is unlikely that the quality of the decisions will improve.

So, I essentially see this as a lose/lose proposition; higher cost and lower quality voting. That's doesn't make me happy.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jul 15, 2010, 9:16 AM
Post #104 of 140 (1465 views)
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Quote:
So then, how do you explain that it is exactly some of the board who are asking for this change? That would seem, by your analysis, to be suspicious, no?

Well, if they are as bad as the naysayers say, then I would assume what is going on is the well known phenomenon that people self-perceive of themselves as being better at what they do than how they really are. In other words, they must think that by and large people like them and only a small minority of folks want them out.

Two possibilities then: they'd be right (in which case, all things being equal, they should be reelected) or they'd be wrong (in which case they rightfully should be removed, and would be with the greater vote turn out).

Quote:
We already have a membership that does not take the time to send a paper ballot. There's no reason to expect that the online voters will do any better, and the cost is a lot higher than what we spend now.

Using that logic, why permit proxies at all? People should have to travel to the meeting in person and vote if they really care and have thought about the issues. Sticking a proxy in the mail doesn't weed out the uninformed, like me, who still vote. I should have to drive my ass up to lovely and historic Nashua, NH if I want my vote counted.

The problem with that? It would encourage too FEW people to vote - and usually what happens when large organizations require in person voting, fringe elements take over. (I once had a client that had by-laws that dated from 1904; they had no provision for proxy votes in the by-laws because it was originally a 12 member organization that ballooned to a couple hundred. It was a mess, because lunatic fringe Group A was ousted by equally lunatic fringe Group B, and that became a process that repeated annually...)

To be clear, this isn't a statement about the Board composition we have here: I don't know who the fringe is here - the incumbents or the anti-incumbents. Hell, maybe they both are...

As for cost, for companies that have adopted online voting, it's more expensive to set up, but usually pays for itself in under ten years.

Edited to add the word "usually" in the last sentence and to add the word "have" that I dropped from a sentence.


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Jul 15, 2010, 2:52 PM)


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jul 16, 2010, 1:14 PM
Post #105 of 140 (1407 views)
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It was announced this morning that the number for a quorum has been reached, although remaining proxies are still being counted. Deadline is close of business today (almost upon us as I am writing this Final tally will be called in shortly afterwards and the final vote is tonight.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jul 16, 2010, 4:41 PM
Post #106 of 140 (1392 views)
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ONLINE VOTING MOTION PASSED 4088 to 66 (1 abstention) 4106 total proxies submitted.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Jul 16, 2010, 7:54 PM
Post #107 of 140 (1365 views)
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Quote:
The practice was not only approved but encouraged because of USPA’s 30,000-some members, no more than ten percent actually vote in the elections – a significant fraction on photocopied ballots furnished by director candidates.


Quote:
ONLINE VOTING MOTION PASSED 4088 to 66 (1 abstention) 4106 total proxies submitted.

More people voted in the proxy "election" than vote in the regular elections? This internet stuff is really powerful!!


(This post was edited by BobMoore on Jul 16, 2010, 7:55 PM)


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jul 16, 2010, 8:11 PM
Post #108 of 140 (1360 views)
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There were members at the General Membership meeting. They voted in person (including me). We did not fill out proxy forms.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jul 20, 2010, 9:10 AM
Post #109 of 140 (1289 views)
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I do wonder how many votes of that was triggered by this thread becoming a sticky. I certainly did not anticipate stirring too much controversy, but that's the nature of the game to live with --

Anyway, it's now the membership's imperative to make sure that USPA follows through in a non-wasteful manner (where possible), the online voting system which I think is already proposed to be eballot.votenet.com ... some people do bring up a good point about properly implementing such systems, in a trustworthy way, in a way that avoids cost overrun (or too much).

... My research of this system suggests this is a pretty good system, all things considered. I read some statistics on that system and it seems to have something like an approximately 95% satisfaction rating although it appears that it only has a 40%-50% chance of saving money, according to case studies. Then again, it does mean that more elections can be held more cheaply at a more-fixed less-variable price, easily paying for itself and contributing to the high satisfaction rating. I hope there is 'appropriately qualified' people at USPA with the smarts to integrate the eballot system properly, without too much cost overrun.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jul 20, 2010, 9:12 AM)


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jul 20, 2010, 12:57 PM
Post #110 of 140 (1265 views)
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If you vote in person, by definition you don't need a proxy.

A proxy basically is when you authorize someone to vote on your behalf. If you're at the meeting, you don't need someone to vote on your behalf.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 24, 2010, 6:01 AM
Post #111 of 140 (1221 views)
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Final Proxy Update from Nominations and Elections

The count on the proxies/votes was 4088 in favor of the online voting proposal and 66 against. The motion carried to allow the board to make the necessary changes to allow for online voting ONLY.

Constitution and Bylaws, Chaired by Mike Mullins passed a motion to delete two words in Article V Section 1 of the By-Laws. It did read, "Ballot Election by mail". The motion was to delete the words "by mail".

The other change was one word in Article V Section 7. It did read, "Ballots that do not contain the voting member's original signature will be declared invalid." The motion was to add the word "paper" before the word ballots. So that it would read "Paper ballots that do not contain"….etc.

The motion was passed by the full board and nothing else was changed using the proxy vote. The proxies have expired and are of no further use. They are in storage for a period of time and will be destroyed at a later date.

The remainder went to the Nominations and Elections Committee. This will come out with the committee report when it is published. Essentially, changes were made in Section 3 of the Governance Manual to facilitate online voting, but the changes did not require a vote of the members. Section 3 can be changed by a 2/3 vote of the board. These changes were submitted to the board in advance, approved by the committee and then forwarded to the board and approved.

I don't like to use the word "housekeeping", but that is essentially what it was. It cleaned up those areas referring to paper ballots and redefined "Approved format" as follows":

1. A paper ballot contained in Parachutist Magazine
2. A printed ballot from the USPA website.
3. A photocopied ballot of either 1. or 2. above.
4. An electronic ballot prepared by USPA for online voting.

The committee then discussed costs and addressed requests by Ed Scott, Executive Director. A motion was made and approved to ask for $20,385 to pay for online voting. It passed and was forwarded to Finance and Budget for their approval. USPA needs to set up a password/username system of its own. That would cut several thousand off of the above costs. Also, $2500 of the above figure is for paper ballot entry into the system making the online system cost $17,785.

We could substantially cut these costs in the future by implementing our own online voting system. Staff is presently looking at a database system that has a voting module included. The downside is security. The "in house" system would not have the security features of Votenet/Eballot.

This will be a learning experience for the board and USPA staff. Please be patient as we learn better ways to do this in the future. If you see better ways to do things as we progress, please submit proposals for changes so that the process can be improved.

Disclaimer: These are things I saw and was a participant. They are from my memory and are not in any way to be taken as officially from USPA. The associated documents will be prepared and published on the USPA website and will be the official word from USPA.

Blue Skies,

Ed Dixon
N&E Chair


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 25, 2010, 5:02 AM
Post #112 of 140 (1186 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Ed, the information is appreciated, and congrats on bringing the change.


flyhi  (D License)

Jul 27, 2010, 6:08 AM
Post #113 of 140 (1110 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Ed,

I'm sure it goes without saying, so I am going to ask you to say, is there enough time to have this in place for the 2010 election?


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jul 27, 2010, 6:50 AM
Post #114 of 140 (1101 views)
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Re: [flyhi] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

It will be in place for the 2010 election.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 4, 2010, 2:42 PM
Post #115 of 140 (958 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I have not heard about the exact procedure as of yet. Is there any insight as to how the online voting will take place. I have heard many concerns about security or maintaining the integrity of the election. I imagine it will be posted soon.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 27, 2010, 3:17 PM
Post #116 of 140 (799 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

It will probably be figured out after the election (JOKEWink)


robinheid  (D 5533)

Oct 29, 2010, 4:50 PM
Post #117 of 140 (742 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It will probably be figured out after the election (JOKEWink)

NOT!

Cool


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 29, 2010, 8:53 PM
Post #118 of 140 (716 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I have heard it is an email blast to all valid uspa members with a email address. There will be a link provided. I am not sure why this is so top secret with the election starting on the 1st.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 1, 2010, 7:33 AM
Post #119 of 140 (659 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I just received and tried the link.
A few things:

It doesn't work with Firefox.
Internet Exploder requires a "Password Provided by e-mail " that wasn't provided.

Laugh


buff  (D 30567)

Nov 1, 2010, 7:34 AM
Post #120 of 140 (659 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I got the e-mail this a.m. with a link to vote. The link expires in 3 days and does not say whether it will be reissued.

I was looking forward to the e-vote but since I don't know who is on the ballot and don't have the mag with me, I guess the link will expire.

Voting runs from Nov 1st until Dec 31st but it appears from the email that if you want to e-vote, you have 3 days.


MakeItHappen

Nov 1, 2010, 8:12 AM
Post #121 of 140 (647 views)
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Re: [buff] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well I got the e-mail this a.m. with a link to vote. The link expires in 3 days and does not say whether it will be reissued.

I was looking forward to the e-vote but since I don't know who is on the ballot and don't have the mag with me, I guess the link will expire.

Voting runs from Nov 1st until Dec 31st but it appears from the email that if you want to e-vote, you have 3 days.

All that was in my email was
"This e-mail was sent on behalf of United States Parachute Association (USPA) by Votenet Solutions Inc.<br>located at 1420 K St NW, Washington, DC 20005 (USA).<br>To receive no further e-mails, please reply to this message with 'unsubscribe' in the subject line."
and a web bug that went to http://tracking.votenet.com/images/invisible.gif

.


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:15 AM
Post #122 of 140 (644 views)
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Re: [buff] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was looking forward to the e-vote but since I don't know who is on the ballot and don't have the mag with me, I guess the link will expire.

You can view the profiles of the candidates if you follow the link.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:28 AM
Post #123 of 140 (637 views)
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Re: [buff] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The link expires in 3 days and does not say whether it will be reissued.

My email (and I assume all emails) says "If you are unable to participate now or open this e-mail after this link has expired, USPA will be sending periodic reminders with an updated link. "


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:40 AM
Post #124 of 140 (631 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

I opened the link, found that I was automatically logged in, and had no problem voting. The only choice for Regional Director was the candidate from my region (I'm sure my mailing zip code was used to determine this) with the option for writing in someone else.

All in all, a very quick easy experience. I was using Windows IE.


(This post was edited by SkydiveJack on Nov 1, 2010, 8:41 AM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:47 AM
Post #125 of 140 (621 views)
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Re: [SkydiveJack] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

The link was down for the first three attempts but eventually it worked and was easy to view candidate biographies and vote.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 1, 2010, 11:27 AM
Post #126 of 140 (939 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Still not working for me in Firefox or IE. Unsure

Matt


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 1, 2010, 12:28 PM
Post #127 of 140 (921 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told it was fixed and is working. If you still cant vote, I would call USPA or submit a ballot from the magazine.


MakeItHappen

Nov 1, 2010, 12:42 PM
Post #128 of 140 (916 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was told it was fixed and is working. If you still cant vote, I would call USPA or submit a ballot from the magazine.

Not every issue with the online balloting has been fixed.
USPA is forwarding the email I got to the vendor to get it fixed.

If you submit a paper ballot, you should be aware that a clerk ( with the voting vendor) will hand key your entry into the system.
This may have data entry errors and there is no way for you to verify that your vote was cast properly.

Also the 3 day 'good-link' time interval essentially takes away 4 days of the week from people that may have other things to do.
USPA may change this time period to one week, which is what they told me was the interval of reminders.

Reminders will only be sent to those who have never clicked one of the previous links.
IOW, if you go the voting site, save your votes, and do not cast it, you will not get a reminder to vote at any time later.
This is what I was told today, but it may change in the future.

.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 1, 2010, 2:48 PM
Post #129 of 140 (894 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

If you clicked the link but Firefox didn't recognize it and you could go no further does that negate the link for a re-try?

I sent an e-mail to USPA and am standing by, but figured I would ask here.

Matt


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Nov 1, 2010, 2:49 PM
Post #130 of 140 (893 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

My link did not work as well. I let USPA know.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Nov 1, 2010, 3:33 PM
Post #131 of 140 (879 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the link? I have not received an e-mail from USPA, probably because I haven't given them a current e-mail address.


stratostar  (Student)

Nov 1, 2010, 3:38 PM
Post #132 of 140 (875 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

You have to have a current email on file to get the link sent to you. I had no problems with mine and I liked the system, didn;t see what what opened IE or Firefox? Maybe others are having problems only due to volume of users???


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 1, 2010, 3:52 PM
Post #133 of 140 (871 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What is the link? I have not received an e-mail from USPA, probably because I haven't given them a current e-mail address.

It's an individual link - one per person so you'll probably have to write to USPA and ask to be added to the email list and see if they can send you an email.

I was able to vote using Firefox - no problems at all.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 1, 2010, 4:19 PM
Post #134 of 140 (865 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

You can register your email address at this link to get the email.
http://www.uspa.org/...bid/542/Default.aspx

It is on the USPA web site under the elections section.


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Nov 1, 2010, 7:20 PM
Post #135 of 140 (839 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was able to vote using Firefox - no problems at all.

And me with Safari. A few seconds later I got a very nice 'thank you for voting' e-mail too. Smile

ltdiver


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 2, 2010, 7:18 AM
Post #136 of 140 (797 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

My link still does not work via Forefox or IE.
I am waiting for a reply from my e-mail to USPA.

Matt


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Nov 2, 2010, 8:01 AM
Post #137 of 140 (788 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told that my settings don't work with HTML ? Well ..ummmmm.... ok.
So they sent me another link, a password and a user ID.
Ummm no joy.
I will send mine via snail mail.
B2


(This post was edited by bbarnhouse on Nov 2, 2010, 8:02 AM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 2, 2010, 8:47 AM
Post #138 of 140 (773 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like my plan too, when I get my Parachutist!

Matt


Southern_Man  (C License)

Nov 2, 2010, 11:35 AM
Post #139 of 140 (746 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't received anything about electronic balloting at all. I guess everybody should have received something by now? I just renewed my membership (it did not expire but I only renewed it about a week or so before it would have) so maybe that is the issue.

I am going to wait a few days before calling USPA (I am not sure who I am going to vote for yet anyway). I also have not received the November parachutist.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 2, 2010, 11:38 AM
Post #140 of 140 (745 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I haven't received anything about electronic balloting at all. I guess everybody should have received something by now? I just renewed my membership (it did not expire but I only renewed it about a week or so before it would have) so maybe that is the issue.

I am going to wait a few days before calling USPA (I am not sure who I am going to vote for yet anyway). I also have not received the November parachutist.

Here's some good info about what to do if you didn't get the link or are having problems:

http://skydiveuspa.wordpress.com/...%E2%80%99s-election/



Forums : Archive : 2013-2015 USPA BOD Elections

 


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