Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig?

 


Poll: What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig?
BOC throw-out 242 / 87%
Other throw-out 2 / 1%
Pull-out 28 / 10%
Rip-cord 5 / 2%
Other (please describe) 1 / 0%
278 total votes
 
DocPop  (C License)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:08 PM
Post #1 of 63 (2905 views)
Shortcut
What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? Can't Post

I recently ordered a new container with a pull-out and they tried to talk me out of it saying it was old technology.

Just wanted to get an idea of what you guys are using.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:10 PM
Post #2 of 63 (2886 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I recently ordered a new container with a pull-out and they tried to talk me out of it saying it was old technology.

Just wanted to get an idea of what you guys are using.

Who tried to talk you out of it?


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:12 PM
Post #3 of 63 (2878 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

The guy at the place I ordered it from. I do not want to get into who it was as that is not really relevant.

He did not succeed as I had already done my research and decided that's what I wanted.


Blink  (C 3275)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:19 PM
Post #4 of 63 (2869 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have had a pull out for the past 500 jumps, and am looking at getting another rig, with a pull out system.

I absolutely love it and recommend it to everyone.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:31 PM
Post #5 of 63 (2852 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Blink] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have had a pull out for the past 500 jumps, and am looking at getting another rig, with a pull out system.

I absolutely love it and recommend it to everyone.

Any particular reason?


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:35 PM
Post #6 of 63 (2849 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have had a pull out for the past 500 jumps, and am looking at getting another rig, with a pull out system.

I absolutely love it and recommend it to everyone.

Any particular reason?
Its no problem if you don;t want to jump with wing suit.
Advantage? You container stay closed as long you pull.
It can be a good point for speed skydiving and FF too.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:52 PM
Post #7 of 63 (2825 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

People that use pullouts are more rare and more loyal than people that use racers. Now racers with pullouts... There may be nothing more rare in the entire sport. Smile

Personally I don't think pros are worth the cons. And I believe the inventor of both systems has posted on here that he prefers throwouts.

But overall, both deployment systems work really really well. So it's not like it makes such a big difference.

Dave


Chrisky

Jun 23, 2010, 2:48 AM
Post #8 of 63 (2719 views)
Shortcut
Comprehensive pro/con linked here [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Advantage? You container stay closed as long you pull.
Same with a BOC with a pud. The key difference is that one opens the container directly before putting the PC into the wind. The disadvantage is that if one doesnt pull all the way, one is more likely to have a PC hesitation as it may be caught in the burble.

But read this, excellent thread on the subject:

This thread contains Bill Booths' post on the subject.


(This post was edited by Chrisky on Jun 23, 2010, 4:37 AM)


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Jun 23, 2010, 4:02 AM
Post #9 of 63 (2677 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pilotdave] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And I believe the inventor of both systems has posted on here that he prefers throwouts.

I may be wrong but I believe the systems were invented by different people and the pullout was mainly a system against horseshoes.

To the OP, did they also tell you that throw outs were old technology? Considering they came out before the pull out.


piisfish

Jun 23, 2010, 5:22 AM
Post #10 of 63 (2642 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

i use a BOC throwout , and my guess is JohnRich is the one who voted "ripcord" Laugh


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jun 23, 2010, 5:46 AM
Post #11 of 63 (2633 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nobody has posted yet that was around in the 80's and 90's. Pull outs went through even worse growing pains than throw outs. Throw outs went through twisted belly bands, loops of bridle with an elastic loop for closing, ROL cordura pockets, spandex pockets, front of leg strap pockets, etc. When we got curved pins and BOC spandex/elastic most of the problems were solved.

Pullouts had lots of problems with floating puds. It took almost until the 2000's to come up with handles that stayed put and could still be pulled. Many of the reserve rides I packed back then were lost handles or hard pulls. Also pull outs had/have the ability to be packed by the used in a no pull possible configuration by loading the PC before the pin. In addition, unless there was a group of pull out users on a DZ there often were many of the instructors and even riggers who were unfamiliar with it. Also there were more variations on handle systems than with throwout.

One argument for TO. The PC puts a lot more force on that pin than the jumper can with a pull out handle. Other side is that the jumper controls the container opening.

IF the jumper is well trained on the pull out system, and its a well established secure handle system, and all of the packers the jumper uses knows how to pack it, then a pull out can be successful. But there must be a reason the pull out is a small percentage of the sport, coming out of the 80's and 90's when both systems were changing and evolving.

And pull out uses just have to be more flexible to find that floating handle.Wink TongueAngelic


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:54 AM
Post #12 of 63 (2589 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're obviously not buying a Racer. Might want to reconsider that. Wink


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:11 AM
Post #13 of 63 (2570 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
The councilman beat me to it, but a pull out is OK as long as the rig is small enough (or your arms are long enough) to reach back and place an open hand flat on your pin cover. That's what it takes to retrieve a floating pud and avoid a reserve pull.

Also, as long as you don't mind not using a packer, and not being able to check if your PC is cocked (in the case of a collapsable PC) on a pin check, then go for the pull out.

In all reality, pull out and throw out are about the same in terms of functionality, reliability, problem areas, and maintainence.


JohnRich  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:32 AM
Post #14 of 63 (2544 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i use a BOC throwout , and my guess is JohnRich is the one who voted "ripcord" Laugh

Ha! Actually, that vote was already there when I entered. So now there's two for "ripcord". I wonder who that other dinosaur is?


Blink  (C 3275)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:35 AM
Post #15 of 63 (2541 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have had a pull out for the past 500 jumps, and am looking at getting another rig, with a pull out system.

I absolutely love it and recommend it to everyone.

Any particular reason?

Personal preference. I've jumped both, was trained on BOC throw out, and prefer the pull out for a couple reasons:

Eliminates horseshoe malfunctions, the container is open as soon as it's pulled
The one "mulfunction" you can experience is a floating pud, which really isn't a big deal (I've had it twice)
It looks so much better than a giant pouch on the bottom of the container

Obviously this is just how I feel, to each there own.

Also, I believe there is a bias towards throw out because of lack of education. More people have never even heard of a pull out, so when they go to buy a new rig, they get what they're familiar with. When I bought mine, I did some research and talked to instructors who gave me the full scoop. When I first started jumping it, I was the third person at our DZ to have one, now I think the numbers are doubled and I hear people talking about new rigs and considering pull out now that they've seen them around.

Cheers.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:36 AM
Post #16 of 63 (2536 views)
Shortcut
Re:What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the insights, guys.

I chose a pull-out (on an Infinity I-24SN if it matters) for the following reasons:

1. The lower risk of a horseshoe (I realize this is a compromise as you exchange that risk for the risk of a pud-in-tow).

2. It appears to me, and this will probably cause debate, that it is a more secure and freefly friendly option (no bridle exposed, no risk of spandex becoming saggy and worn-out).

3. I think it has a neater appearance than a BOC.

My friend and mentor has given me instruction on the differences and I have been practicing with his rig for both deployment and packing. i will NOT use packers.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:05 AM
Post #17 of 63 (2498 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Blink] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Eliminates horseshoe malfunctions, the container is open as soon as it's pulled

On a throwout rig, one way to get a horseshoe is when the container opens prematurely with the PC still in the pouch. That can't happen with a pullout. But there are other ways to get a horseshoe that are not eliminated. I'm not sure how much I like the idea of my PC inside my open container and my handle still in place compared to what i'd get with a BOC.

Dave


Blink  (C 3275)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:11 AM
Post #18 of 63 (2489 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pilotdave] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On a throwout rig, one way to get a horseshoe is when the container opens prematurely with the PC still in the pouch. That can't happen with a pullout. But there are other ways to get a horseshoe that are not eliminated. I'm not sure how much I like the idea of my PC inside my open container and my handle still in place compared to what i'd get with a BOC.

True, although I've never heard of it happening (not saying it can't, simply saying I've personally never heard/read of it). Also, I'm not sure how every manufacturer secures their PUDs, but the systems I've seen would (highly likely) release when there was any kind of force that would be produce from such a malfunction.

Edit to Add:
I'm not saying BOC is bad, I do occasionally jump one (borrowed gear), and my next rig will likely be BOC just due to popularity on used gear, but once the season is done it'll be converted. :)


(This post was edited by Blink on Jun 23, 2010, 8:13 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 23, 2010, 9:01 AM
Post #19 of 63 (2438 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I recently ordered a new container with a pull-out and they tried to talk
>me out of it saying it was old technology.

It is older technology, but it also works fine. There are differences, as you know; this might be an issue if you use packers a lot.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 10:02 AM
Post #20 of 63 (2397 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Blink] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I have had a pull out for the past 500 jumps, and am looking at getting another rig, with a pull out system.

I absolutely love it and recommend it to everyone.

Any particular reason?

Personal preference. I've jumped both, was trained on BOC throw out, and prefer the pull out for a couple reasons:

Eliminates horseshoe malfunctions, the container is open as soon as it's pulled
The one "multifunction" you can experience is a floating pud, which really isn't a big deal (I've had it twice)
It looks so much better than a giant pouch on the bottom of the container

Obviously this is just how I feel, to each there own.

Also, I believe there is a bias towards throw out because of lack of education. More people have never even heard of a pull out, so when they go to buy a new rig, they get what they're familiar with. When I bought mine, I did some research and talked to instructors who gave me the full scoop. When I first started jumping it, I was the third person at our DZ to have one, now I think the numbers are doubled and I hear people talking about new rigs and considering pull out now that they've seen them around.

Cheers.

I have about 1500 jumps on a pull out and liked it, did have a few floating handles over that time time but since I can scratch my ankles without bending over I never had a problem reaching back & tracing the pud.

I was thinking about getting one on my new rig but after reading Booths reasoning, I went with the throw-out. . .

Preventing a horseshoe...never had one, never even seen one live, not a big concern for me. There are a lot of 'reasons' those who like pull outs are so loyal, but overall as Bill B. explained it's dated technology that fixes a near non-existent problem and has as much potential for creating other deployment glitches.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jun 23, 2010, 12:28 PM
Post #21 of 63 (2332 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Blink] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
On a throwout rig, one way to get a horseshoe is when the container opens prematurely with the PC still in the pouch. That can't happen with a pullout. But there are other ways to get a horseshoe that are not eliminated. I'm not sure how much I like the idea of my PC inside my open container and my handle still in place compared to what i'd get with a BOC.

True, although I've never heard of it happening (not saying it can't, simply saying I've personally never heard/read of it).

Happened on my DZ a few years back. So now you've heard of one Tongue

Anyway I wouldn't want a pull-out for my regular rig as I jump wingsuit, but for just about everything else a pullout is fine and I think just about every serious CRW team I've seen had pullouts on their rigs. Most people nowaydays tend to just buy a freefly handle for a bit of extra security though. Very important: pullout & packers is not always a good combination Crazy


TheCaptain  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 12:37 PM
Post #22 of 63 (2318 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] Re:What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for the insights, guys.

I chose a pull-out (on an Infinity I-24SN if it matters) for the following reasons:
.
That is an interesting choice of container size. If I may ask why so small on the reserve tray. I know you can get a PD Optima 143 in that tightly but with the main tray being so large why restrict the reserve size?


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 1:10 PM
Post #23 of 63 (2291 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dragon2] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think just about every serious CRW team I've seen had pullouts on their rigs

Now don't go confusing the issue with CRW rigs. They're in their own world! At the 2008 USPA nationals I noticed some of them seemed to be jumping a hybrid setup... pilot chute in a BOC, but pullout pin to open the container. Actually ripcord cable from the PC to the closing loop if I remember correctly. But look at the attached photo and decide if you want to take gear advice from those guys. Tongue

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Jun 23, 2010, 1:12 PM)
Attachments: crw_rigs.jpg (160 KB)


muff528  (D 17609)

Jun 23, 2010, 2:36 PM
Post #24 of 63 (2249 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dragon2] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
On a throwout rig, one way to get a horseshoe is when the container opens prematurely with the PC still in the pouch. That can't happen with a pullout. But there are other ways to get a horseshoe that are not eliminated. I'm not sure how much I like the idea of my PC inside my open container and my handle still in place compared to what i'd get with a BOC.

True, although I've never heard of it happening (not saying it can't, simply saying I've personally never heard/read of it).

Happened on my DZ a few years back. So now you've heard of one Tongue

Anyway I wouldn't want a pull-out for my regular rig as I jump wingsuit, but for just about everything else a pullout is fine and I think just about every serious CRW team I've seen had pullouts on their rigs. Most people nowaydays tend to just buy a freefly handle for a bit of extra security though. Very important: pullout & packers is not always a good combination Crazy

I noticed at Zhills (where there were a lot of European visitors) during the mid 90's that it seemed that most Europeans preferred pull-out while most Americans used throw-out. Of course there were exceptions.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 23, 2010, 2:51 PM
Post #25 of 63 (2237 views)
Shortcut
Re: [TheCaptain] Re:What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Thanks for the insights, guys.

I chose a pull-out (on an Infinity I-24SN if it matters) for the following reasons:
.
That is an interesting choice of container size. If I may ask why so small on the reserve tray. I know you can get a PD Optima 143 in that tightly but with the main tray being so large why restrict the reserve size?

My bad - it is an I-23SN.

It is sized for a Optimum 143 and a 135 nine cell main. Is that such an odd combination?


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jun 23, 2010, 3:11 PM
Post #26 of 63 (879 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pilotdave] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But look at the attached photo and decide if you want to take gear advice from those guys. Tongue

Dave

While I may not want to take a whole lot of advice from these guys about dressing for success, flossing, or relationships, they might know more about gear than you think.

There's a whole lot of world records and Nationals medals standing there!

MTCW, I've got over 5000 jumps on my pull-out, and our CRW team has had over 25,000. I don't think we've had more than 1 or 2 dropped puds in all the years, because someone was sloppy and not on the ball. Before that, we had throw-outs with all sorts of tows and variations in opening altitude. I jump a pull out on my freefall gear as well.

top


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:11 PM
Post #27 of 63 (850 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dragon2] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Very important: pullout & packers is not always a good combination

I've never had a problem.

4000ish jumps on pullouts.
400ish wingsuit jumps on pullouts.
500ish paid pack jobs on pullouts.

I've had one problem EVER, related to a pullout and that's because I failed to maintain my rig properly.

YMMVTongue


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:15 PM
Post #28 of 63 (849 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pilotdave] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I think just about every serious CRW team I've seen had pullouts on their rigs

Now don't go confusing the issue with CRW rigs. They're in their own world! At the 2008 USPA nationals I noticed some of them seemed to be jumping a hybrid setup... pilot chute in a BOC, but pullout pin to open the container. Actually ripcord cable from the PC to the closing loop if I remember correctly. But look at the attached photo and decide if you want to take gear advice from those guys. Tongue

Dave


Next thing we'll be hearing the "it's an out of sequence deployment" argument.

Uhh....in that case, so is your reserve.Tongue


As for advice from "those guys", yeah I'd listen up. Not only are they some of the best canopy pilots in the world, they actually KNOW something about their gear, as opposed to a largeish portion of modern sport jumpers.Cool


Blink  (C 3275)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:27 PM
Post #29 of 63 (841 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Next thing we'll be hearing the "it's an out of sequence deployment" argument.

Uhh....in that case, so is your reserve.

I've never heard that before, but will be repeating it frequently, thank you.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:39 PM
Post #30 of 63 (839 views)
Shortcut
Re: [topdocker] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just for the record, I was kidding! I know they're all riggers too... how else are they going to make the next round of competition after a wrap?! Smile

Dave


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:41 PM
Post #31 of 63 (838 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Next thing we'll be hearing the "it's an out of sequence deployment" argument.

Not from me. I never understood that one. Who says there's a proper sequence? If the canopy opens, I'm not complaining. Smile

Dave


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jun 23, 2010, 10:17 PM
Post #32 of 63 (800 views)
Shortcut
Re: [topdocker] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, I'll bite. Who are they? (out of curiosity). Its always interesting to learn about world class skydivers.


Ron

Jun 24, 2010, 6:53 AM
Post #33 of 63 (759 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OK as long as the rig is small enough (or your arms are long enough) to reach back and place an open hand flat on your pin cover. That's what it takes to retrieve a floating pud and avoid a reserve pull.

You can also roll slightly left and it will make it easier.

But all said and done, I prefer a pull out.


Blink  (C 3275)

Jun 24, 2010, 7:16 AM
Post #34 of 63 (750 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK as long as the rig is small enough (or your arms are long enough) to reach back and place an open hand flat on your pin cover. That's what it takes to retrieve a floating pud and avoid a reserve pull.

Is there anyone that can't reach that? Basically you're asking if they can give themselves a pin check.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 24, 2010, 7:34 AM
Post #35 of 63 (746 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Blink] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is there anyone that can't reach that? Basically you're asking if they can give themselves a pin check

Not everyone can give themselves a pin check. New jumpers with large rigs cannot always reach that far back. 'Bigger' jumpers, who also jump bigger rigs and may have reduced flexibility cannot always reacj that far back. Older jumpers with reduced flexibility cannot always reach that far back. Jumpers with shoulder injuries leading to reduced flexibility cannot always reach that far back.

Additionally, there's a difference between being able to slip a fingertip under your pin cover flap, and being able to reach back and grab a dancing pud bridle behind your back, which is why I suggested being able to place your palm flat on your pin cover flap. This ensures that you have the reach to get back there, and actually make the grab when the time comes (and it will come, because puds will float).


DARK  (B 31685)

Jun 24, 2010, 9:20 PM
Post #36 of 63 (690 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok, I'll bite. Who are they? (out of curiosity). Its always interesting to learn about world class skydivers.

i think the guy second from the left is keith tivedge(sorry for destroying the second name) who is on the us crw team and gave me my introduction to crw

id pretty much take his advice on gear over most other peoples


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 24, 2010, 9:44 PM
Post #37 of 63 (681 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DARK] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope, not Keith. Don't happen to know who it is, but Keith didn't compete in CRW in 2008... he was doing 4-way video.

I have no shortage of pics of him though!

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Jun 24, 2010, 9:49 PM)
Attachments: keith up close.jpg (66.9 KB)


Ron

Jun 25, 2010, 8:00 AM
Post #38 of 63 (644 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DARK] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

L - R: Kenny Backus, Chuck Backus and I don't know the other two....

Kenny, Chuck and I were on a 4 way rotations team in Zhills in 96 till Chuck and his GF broke up and we were down to a three way team.


DARK  (B 31685)

Jun 25, 2010, 2:06 PM
Post #39 of 63 (612 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

i hope we get some crw going on here this summer was easily the best part of last summer

anyway carry on :p


Chrisky

Jun 28, 2010, 6:41 AM
Post #40 of 63 (553 views)
Shortcut
speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

Speaking of the pros and cons, a friend of mine had his second reserve ride yesterday, thanks to a floating handle on his pullout which he couldn't reach.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 28, 2010, 6:54 AM
Post #41 of 63 (548 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Chrisky] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

For the past week I have been packing pull-outs for other people (in practice for when I get mine!) and I have to say that not having to fold up the pilot chute at the end of the pack-job is an added benefit which I had not thought of.

I have started to hate that step when I pack my own throw-out system.

Lazy, I know, but true nonetheless....


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 28, 2010, 9:18 AM
Post #42 of 63 (526 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

>I have to say that not having to fold up the pilot chute at the end of
>the pack-job is an added benefit which I had not thought of.

Yikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout! It's a different method, but you still have to fold it. You're not just stuffing it in a corner, are you?


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 28, 2010, 9:56 AM
Post #43 of 63 (517 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I have to say that not having to fold up the pilot chute at the end of
>the pack-job is an added benefit which I had not thought of.

Yikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout! It's a different method, but you still have to fold it. You're not just stuffing it in a corner, are you?

No, not just stuffing it in! The guys I pack for are jumping Velocities from 90 to 103 and are very particular about their pack-jobs.

The method I have been taught involves 'inverting' the PC (as though it was collapsed by the kill line, although, of course it is NOT) and then just lying it in the pack tray in that configuration. S-fold the bridle and that's it.

Much quicker than prepping a PC for a BOC in my opinion.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Jun 28, 2010, 10:41 AM
Post #44 of 63 (510 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>I have to say that not having to fold up the pilot chute at the end of
>the pack-job is an added benefit which I had not thought of.

Yikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout! It's a different method, but you still have to fold it. You're not just stuffing it in a corner, are you?

The method I have been taught involves 'inverting' the PC (as though it was collapsed by the kill line, although, of course it is NOT) and then just lying it in the pack tray in that configuration. S-fold the bridle and that's it.
In reply to:

You can do that with a boc pilot chute. In fact some well known packers at Perris do just that.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jun 28, 2010, 11:04 AM
Post #45 of 63 (505 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi bill,

Quote:
Yikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout!

I disagree. Having jumped a pull-out for many years & jumps I always just 'flopped' them on top of the bag. But make sure you do everything else in the proper manner.

YMMV!!!!!!!

JerryBaumchen


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 28, 2010, 11:33 AM
Post #46 of 63 (495 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tetra316] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can do that with a boc pilot chute. In fact some well known packers at Perris do just that.

I have always been careful to use Brian Germain's "anti-horseshoe" method for the BOC which is a bit of a ball-ache, but gives me peace-of-mind.


(This post was edited by DocPop on Jun 28, 2010, 11:33 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 28, 2010, 1:42 PM
Post #47 of 63 (475 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JerryBaumchen] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

>I disagree. Having jumped a pull-out for many years & jumps I always
>just 'flopped' them on top of the bag.

Well, and I know a lot of people who just stuff their PC into the BOC pouch with no folding at all; it works for them too. But I think it's a bad idea.


stevo  (D 28946)

Jun 29, 2010, 8:31 PM
Post #48 of 63 (424 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

jumped a pull-out for my first 2300 jumps, had surgery for a torn rotator cuff last year. i don't believe it was the sole cause of the injury but certainly think it contributed, it's not real nice on the shoulder.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jul 1, 2010, 3:50 PM
Post #49 of 63 (379 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pilotdave] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And I believe the inventor of both systems has posted on here that he prefers throwouts.

Correct. Bill Booth holds patent for both throw out and pull out. Here is what he says:

"I thought this was settled 10 years ago, but I guess it's good to go over it again for the newbies. I have the patent on both the hand deploy and pullout sytems, so I am biased only by 30 years of observation. One was a good idea...One wasn't.

1. A BOC pilot chute, in a spandex pouch, is by far the most reliable deployment system for your main. Hard pulls and pilot chutes in tow are very, very rare, and floating handles are, by definition, impossible. Add to this the fact that you can't "throw" a pullout out of the burble (which extends well beyond your fingertips in a stable face to earth deployment position) because you never have ahold of the pilot chute itself. You end up "dropping" your pullout in the burble everytime, unless you contort your body (go slightly unstable) right at pilot chute release to "break-up" the burble. All successful pull-out jumpers have developed this talent, whether they realize it or not. But we all know that being "slightly unstable" at pull time is not a good idea with a small elliptical canopy.

2. We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition.

These first two reasons is why wing suit jumpers shy away from pullouts, but they apply equally to everybody.

3. Since both pullouts and BOC throwouts are in the same location, with similar (if not identical) handles, it hard to make the argument that a pullout is more secure to freefly with.

4. The lost pud (pullout handle) malfunction is very dangerous, because you "know" you can fix it if you just try a little longer. Many very experience jumpers have gone all the way into the ground working on that theory.

5. No one in their right mind would start a student out with a pullout. Why? Because everyone knows that they are simply harder to operate correctly. This means you must transition to pullout (probably with no instruction) and all transitions carry risks. (I know, if you start out with a ripcord, you have to transition to a hand deploy. But one transition is better than two, and main ripcord deployments are invaluable training for that inevitable first reserve ride.)

6. Over 95% of the rigs we sell are hand deploy, so it has become the defacto standard. With no real advantage to pullout, adhering to a standard is better for everybody because of problems caused by borrowed and used gear.

I'm not saying it's impossible to jump a pullout safely. I know many jumpers who have done it for thousands of jumps. What I am saying is that it is harder, and therefore will result in more deployment problems than a BOC. You have enough to worry about on a skydive. Why add a pullout to the list?"

AND

"I have read this entire thread and must say that the pros and cons of this subject have been very well covered. However, perhaps I can add some insight. As the patent holder on both the pull out and throw out pilot chute systems, I have listened to customers jump stories about both for the past 25 years. Hand deploy pilot chutes had a lot of problems in the early days. But these problems have mostly disappeared as the result of design improvements like the Spandex pouch, the bottom of container (BOC) location (borrowed from the pull out), and covered bridle paths. However, the same old problems with the pullout, such as lost handles and no-pulls due to improper packing still remain.

Plus, while the throw out allows you to actually throw the pilot chute into the clean air outside the burble, the pull out forces you to release the pilot chute inside the burble. To get hesitation free deployments, pull out jumpers have to momentarily alter their body position to break up the burble. On small, highly loaded ellipticals, this can cause line twists, which can become malfunctions. Perhaps this is why a good 95% of my customers, including me, jump throwouts.

I would say that the jumping public has already settled this debate. Both systems work when correctly maintained, packed, and deployed. However, people just seem to have fewer problems with today's manifestation of the throw out."


 


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jul 1, 2010, 3:53 PM
Post #50 of 63 (378 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] speaking of... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You can do that with a boc pilot chute. In fact some well known packers at Perris do just that.

I have always been careful to use Brian Germain's "anti-horseshoe" method for the BOC which is a bit of a ball-ache, but gives me peace-of-mind.

HERE: http://www.bigairsportz.com/art-pilotchute.php


 


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 4:34 PM
Post #51 of 63 (655 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydiverek] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And I believe the inventor of both systems has posted on here that he prefers throwouts.

Great, he has an opinion. I don't think it hold more weight than other experienced opinions, and I don't agree with it.

In reply to:
1. A BOC pilot chute, in a spandex pouch, is by far the most reliable deployment system for your main. Hard pulls and pilot chutes in tow are very, very rare, and floating handles are, by definition, impossible. Add to this the fact that you can't "throw" a pullout out of the burble (which extends well beyond your fingertips in a stable face to earth deployment position) because you never have ahold of the pilot chute itself. You end up "dropping" your pullout in the burble everytime, unless you contort your body (go slightly unstable) right at pilot chute release to "break-up" the burble. All successful pull-out jumpers have developed this talent, whether they realize it or not. But we all know that being "slightly unstable" at pull time is not a good idea with a small elliptical canopy.

There is nothing unstable about my deployment, and I have 3000 "small elliptical jumps to prove it. Having seen video of my deployments, I CAN get the P/C outside the burble every time all day long.

In reply to:
2. We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition.

What a bullshit argument. A pull out deploy in the EXACT same sequence as a reserve. The advantage to a pullout is that I can place my P/C into the airstream OUTSIDE the burble every time all day long. If I could have a pull out reserve, I would.

In reply to:
These first two reasons is why wing suit jumpers shy away from pullouts, but they apply equally to everybody.

Nonsense. The original problem with wingsuits and pullouts stems from manufacturers traditionally using a shorter bridal for a pullout. A shorter bridal has been used in the past as a "snatch" is not needed to open the container. I've got 400 wingsuit jumps on a pull out with a 9 food bridal (that also happen to be on "small ellipticals") with NO malfunctions, or hesitations.

In reply to:
3. Since both pullouts and BOC throwouts are in the same location, with similar (if not identical) handles, it hard to make the argument that a pullout is more secure to freefly with.

Now that the pullout tuck tab pud has been copied and called a "freefly handle" you may have a point.

In reply to:
4. The lost pud (pullout handle) malfunction is very dangerous, because you "know" you can fix it if you just try a little longer. Many very experience jumpers have gone all the way into the ground working on that theory.

This is not a problem with the system, it's a problem with training. The EXACT same scenario has occurred just as often with a "hard pull" on a throw out.

In reply to:
5. No one in their right mind would start a student out with a pullout. Why? Because everyone knows that they are simply harder to operate correctly. This means you must transition to pullout (probably with no instruction) and all transitions carry risks. (I know, if you start out with a ripcord, you have to transition to a hand deploy. But one transition is better than two, and main ripcord deployments are invaluable training for that inevitable first reserve ride.)

What nonsense. A pull out is no harder to operate than any of the other systems, and simply owing to the fact that ripcord and spring loaded pilotchutes used to be the norm, shows that training is the issue. People used to say "No one in their right mind would start students on a throw out."

In reply to:
6. Over 95% of the rigs we sell are hand deploy, so it has become the defacto standard. With no real advantage to pullout, adhering to a standard is better for everybody because of problems caused by borrowed and used gear.

Great, that's peoples choice.

In reply to:
I'm not saying it's impossible to jump a pullout safely. I know many jumpers who have done it for thousands of jumps. What I am saying is that it is harder, and therefore will result in more deployment problems than a BOC. You have enough to worry about on a skydive. Why add a pullout to the list?"

Don't believe the hype. There are way too many generalizations in Mr. Booth's statements. Either system functions well, it is up to the user to know how to properly operate the equipment they choose. Neither system is "better" than the other. Each has it's benefits, and flaws.

The scare tactics used to sell one system over the other are bull.

I could argue that the pullout is safer in regard to the horseshoe malfunction, or that a throw out wears out P/C's and pockets faster (both items which Mr. Booth sells). But that too would be a BS scare tactic.

Use your heads people, and figure out how each system works, and why it does what it does well. The choose wisely for YOU.


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Jul 1, 2010, 7:39 PM
Post #52 of 63 (637 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydiverek] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2. We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition.

Your reserve container opens before the pilot chute is developing drag as well. I guess it is out of sequence and all the reserve systems out there are a bad thing. Plus any main ripcord operated system and any static line system with a pilot chute assist. I disagree that is a out of sequence definition since so many system use that sequence and a lot longer than the throw out has been around. This "sequence" definition shouldn't apply to anything.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jul 2, 2010, 3:56 AM
Post #53 of 63 (623 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Beatnik] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
2. We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition.

Your reserve container opens before the pilot chute is developing drag as well. I guess it is out of sequence and all the reserve systems out there are a bad thing. Plus any main ripcord operated system and any static line system with a pilot chute assist. I disagree that is a out of sequence definition since so many system use that sequence and a lot longer than the throw out has been around. This "sequence" definition shouldn't apply to anything.

Bill Booth again: "The Cypres put an end to any thoughts of a hand deployed reserve on sport systems. Actually, I originally designed the Vector to be a dual hand deployed rig, but got talked out of it. When I think back on it, I'm glad I didn't do it. When "stuff" really goes wrong, and you go into a panic, a ripcord is just simpler."

 


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Jul 2, 2010, 5:34 AM
Post #54 of 63 (608 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydiverek] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bill Booth again: "The Cypres put an end to any thoughts of a hand deployed reserve on sport systems. Actually, I originally designed the Vector to be a dual hand deployed rig, but got talked out of it. When I think back on it, I'm glad I didn't do it. When "stuff" really goes wrong, and you go into a panic, a ripcord is just simpler."

That still doesn't say anything about the other deployment methods I mentioned. I am sorry, there is no way you can say one is out of sequence and then say it better for your reserve. Either method container opening then drag on a pilot chute or drag on a pilot chute then container opening both seem to be in sequence.

Considering that the Vector was designed long before the CYPRES came out, there is probably many other reasons he went the way he did. I doubt a device that wasn't invented at that time had any influence in the design. Reading what he says, he goes and contradicts himself. It seems to me he prefers something and is trying to convince this is the way to go.


usernametaken

Jul 6, 2010, 10:10 AM
Post #55 of 63 (552 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


The scare tactics used to sell one system over the other are bull.

I could argue that the pullout is safer in regard to the horseshoe malfunction, or that a throw out wears out P/C's and pockets faster (both items which Mr. Booth sells). But that too would be a BS scare tactic.

Use your heads people, and figure out how each system works, and why it does what it does well. The choose wisely for YOU.

I really appreciate this. Only after being told I would "go in" due to a throw-out system and the inevitable pilot chute in tow, my first rig was a Racer on a predominantly Racer DZ. What bummed me out was that the owner had a deal with the JS and that he got more money when people ordered Racers.

I needed pure information so I could make a decision for myself. Did I ever have a problem or deployment related malfunction? No.

My next rig was a Talon and I loved that rig. It was comfortable and bullet-proof, but I don't think the throw-out made it a great rig, it was an combination of things, as opposed to JUST the deployment system.


NancyJ  (D 7675)

Jul 6, 2010, 10:46 AM
Post #56 of 63 (544 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have transitioned dozens of student jumpers from spring-loaded ripcord deployment to pull-out. I like to have my students pull and repack the pull-out 5 to 10 times on the ground. As a result I’ve never failed to have a student land and say, “That was easy… that was fun.” Once they’ve done it correctly once, they always retain the skill.

The first lesson to remember is, you don’t throw a pull-out. You PUT the pilotchute where there is no burble, in the fast air beside your head (slightly bent arm, relaxed grip). EASY.

I have over 5000 jumps on a pull-out and I‘ve never had a floating handle or any other difficulty with it. Of course I was trained by the best – the inventor of the pull-out, John Sherman.

Having made about 100 (springloaded pilotchute) ripcord jumps and over 1200 throw-out jumps I can say without a doubt that the pull-out is easier to use and faster and easier to pack.

In the training video “Breakaway”, I was asked to simulate what might happen if the pull-out handle were to somehow get out of its dual end pocket. So in freefall I plucked the handle out of its pocket and let it go. The pull-out handle is attached to a short lanyard that is tucked up under the side flap. When I let go of the pull-out handle, it simply sat there on my butt, sort of leaning against the bottom of the rig. It didn’t float, it didn’t move; it just sat there in my burble. A few moments later I reached back and felt the handle right where I dropped it. From there it was a routine pull and deployment. Upon viewing the footage, the films’ producer and editor dismayed, “That’s not very exciting.”

“No, it isn’t”, I said.

They were disappointed that the worst scenario malfunction mode of the pull-out was quite benign.

The pull-out is so much safer that the throw-out in a number of ways. Neither the pull-out pilotchute or handle are vulnerable, the way the throw-out handle and pilotchute are. The pull-out pilotchute is safely tucked away, inside the container, “where god intended it to be!”

The Pull-out is supremely secure for freeflying, sitflying, speed diving, speed style, actually every discipline of skydiving. It effectively makes your rig 2 inches shorter because you don’t have the pouch on the bottom of the container (which is not very attractive to begin with). And you don’t have to replace the BOC pouch when it gets worn and “piccky”.

If your container opens prematurely, say from a broken loop, the pilotchute is already out there ahead of the bag.

Pull-outs don't sneak their way out of a pouch the way a throw-out can, causing unexpected openings (in the doorway of an aircraft or in freefall). It was a throw-out pilotchute that killed Tom Piras, in just such an accident.

It takes about the same force in pounds (if not less), to pull a pull-out pin than it does to pull a throw-out out of its pouch, So there really is no advantage to a throw-out in that regard.

With regard to packing, you don’t fold the pc; just flop the pilotchute on top of the bag, stuffing it somewhat into the depression formed by the loop over the top of the bag. Hopefully you’ve packed properly – soft in the middle, firm on the outsides -so that you have a soft area to stuff the pilotchute into.

"Why is the throw-out more prevalent than the pull-out?" you may ask. Very simply, aggressive marketing of the throw-out when it first came out. One very prominent instructor from DeLand told me years ago that he thought the pull-out was eminently better (safer), than the throw-out but that in his opinion it was easier to teach the throw-out. He admittedly, was lazy.


DocPop  (C License)

Jul 6, 2010, 11:46 AM
Post #57 of 63 (534 views)
Shortcut
Re: [NancyJ] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Nancy - thank you so much for a very informative thread. It is great when really experienced people like you give a detailed informative answer like that.

I am really excited to get my new rig! Beer!


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 6, 2010, 2:07 PM
Post #58 of 63 (502 views)
Shortcut
Re: [NancyJ] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You PUT the pilotchute where there is no burble, in the fast air beside your head (slightly bent arm, relaxed grip).

You really think it should be brought all the way up next to your head? That doesn't seem like a good idea or necessary.

In reply to:
I can say without a doubt that the pull-out is easier to use

How can it be easier to use when the throw out is better for lazy throws (assuming you agree with that). People will be lazy with their throws, at least some of the time.

In reply to:
When I let go of the pull-out handle, it simply sat there on my butt, sort of leaning against the bottom of the rig. It didn’t float, it didn’t move; it just sat there in my burble. A few moments later I reached back and felt the handle right where I dropped it.

Clearly experience has shown that this is not always the case. Even if it should always happen with a new rig and proper packing, people and rigs are less than perfect, so I don't think you should dismiss this point as invalid.

In reply to:
Neither the pull-out pilotchute or handle are vulnerable, the way the throw-out handle and pilotchute are.

Many rigs now have handles very similar in configuration for both designs, so I do not see the distinction here, at least in how it can be configured with newer handle options. The pilot chute vulnerability is not relevant, only the handle is what matters.

In reply to:
The Pull-out is supremely secure for freeflying, sitflying, speed diving, speed style, actually every discipline of skydiving.

No difference in how secure the handle is with current options available.

In reply to:
Pull-outs don't sneak their way out of a pouch the way a throw-out can, causing unexpected openings (in the doorway of an aircraft or in freefall).

They don't "sneak" their way out, something pulls on them. A pull out handle can be pulled unintentionally also. No difference with the current options available.

In reply to:
It takes about the same force in pounds (if not less), to pull a pull-out pin than it does to pull a throw-out out of its pouch, So there really is no advantage to a throw-out in that regard.

If that is true, then that reinforces my point that a pull out handle is just as vulnerable to unintentional activation than a throw out. However, it is the experience of many that a pull out does in fact usually require more force to activate.

I have had rigs with both types. The design of both systems has improved over the years in many ways, including that pull out handles used to be held in place with just velcro, and we now can get handles for throw outs that are just as secure as a modern pull out handle.


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 27, 2010, 9:17 AM
Post #59 of 63 (427 views)
Shortcut
Re: What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

UPDATE:

I have now had my new for a couple of months and I have to say I am really liking the pull-out. It seems extremely secure and I like the fact that there is no velcro or spandex to wear out.

It did seem a little odd for the first 4 or 5 jumps, but after that transition phase I am completely comfortable with this deployment method.

I deliberately dropped my handle and there was no issue. It just stayed there, tethered by the lanyard.

Finally, the rig looks so neat without a BOC pouch.

I just wanted to update so that anyone considering a pull-out could read my opinions soon after making the transition.

I now believe that the only TRUE downside will be if I ever try to sell this rig. Due to the prejudice against pull-outs I may have more trouble than I would selling a throw-out system.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 27, 2010, 9:34 AM
Post #60 of 63 (423 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I deliberately dropped my handle and there was no issue. It just stayed there,
>tethered by the lanyard.

Do NOT rely on this. A lot of people have died trying to find that handle that's "right there." (it wasn't)


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 27, 2010, 9:50 AM
Post #61 of 63 (412 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Point taken, Bill.

Two tries then go for reserve.


airtwardo  (D License)

Sep 27, 2010, 9:58 AM
Post #62 of 63 (404 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DocPop] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I now believe that the only TRUE downside will be if I ever try to sell this rig. Due to the prejudice against pull-outs I may have more trouble than I would selling a throw-out system.
It's a quick and relatively inexpensive alterations, wouldn't be concerned. Wink


jumpwally  (D License)

Oct 1, 2010, 8:05 AM
Post #63 of 63 (308 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

all good info,,but i am surprised by the number of people i've come across with rotator cuff issue's and they all seem to use pull outs,,,,,,,it may or may not be the issue,but i find it odd. If you were to high speed film the arm/shoulder movements at deployment, i''l bet you would see slight differences in angle/twist that may or may not be the culprit.



Forums : Skydiving : Gear and Rigging

 


Search for (options)