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Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not?

 

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Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 23, 2010, 12:16 PM
Post #76 of 294 (1503 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Have you not seen this on people with over 500 jumps?

Of course. 200 jumps is a minimum, not a "you are perfectly safe after this number of jumps" thing.

> Not very many years ago someone with 200 jumps would have been
>well respected and thought to have done a lot of jumps.

And someone with 500 Paracommander jumps would have been considered a canopy flight expert. Doesn't mean they're ready to jump a Xaos.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 12:36 PM
Post #77 of 294 (1492 views)
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Re: [jdfreefly] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think we've seen plenty of examples to say you are just plain wrong.

Exactly what part of my statement (below) do you feel is wrong????

"I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less focused and has 500, 1000, 2000, jumps etc....

I don't think the 200 jump requirement should be lowered... I just think that wearing a camera may be a big distraction for some and not a distraction at all for others. "


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 23, 2010, 1:02 PM
Post #78 of 294 (1472 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

The "not a distraction at all for others" part.

Not necessarily directed at the OP:
If you've got low jump numbers and think that you are somehow a more exceptional skydiver than all those that went before you to write these rules in blood you are just asking to write your own little bloody footnote on why these recommendations should be followed.

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are just like every other skydiver that came before you who was wholly convinced in their own mind that the rules should not apply to them. The chances are good that you will get lucky and get through the next 500 jumps without hurting yourself or others but that still won't mean you were right.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 23, 2010, 1:24 PM
Post #79 of 294 (1459 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In the last year I've seen people with under 500 jumps jumping gopros go low and have a cypress fire, missroute a chest strap and viciously take someone out on a freefly jump.

Just to play devils advocate since this is the internet and nothing will ever come of it...

Have you not seen this on people with over 500 jumps? Camera or not? DZ.com always needs something to bitch about it seems. It used to be low turns, then it was downsizing, now its go pros. First it they were bitching about the quality, now its those wanting to jump it.

I predict that they will be allowed to be jumped at around 100 jumps or coaching will be raised to 200.

Its funny how technology sort of creates discussions. Not very many years ago someone with 200 jumps would have been well respected and thought to have done a lot of jumps. With innovations in aircraft and parachute technology someone with 200 jumps still gets chump attached after it. I think we are due for a re-evaluation of what can be done at what number of jumps, and not just in relation to go pros.

No one is saying that someone with 200 jumps is a chump. The recommendations haven't changed, the only thing that has changed is that turbines have changed the amount of time required to hit 200 jumps. This also translates to less time on ground having discussions with others, less time seeing "oops" moments from others. A coached skydive carries some very minimal responsibilities and some very specific tasks with only one other person in the air. A camera adds a lot to that same jump with a lot more unpredictability.

It's backward that many folks believe the challenges of camera flying are mostly resolved by the size of the camera vs how the camera causes people to fly differently than they would without one.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 1:34 PM
Post #80 of 294 (1453 views)
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Re: [jdfreefly] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don't understand why it's so hard for some to take the advise of those more experienced in such matters. Crazy

I knew a handful of 'trend setting rule scoffers' back in the day...2 settled down and still jump, 2 quit jumping, 4 are dead from fuckin' around doing stupid stuff.

I was no angel by any stretch, but watching some close friends go in, tempered my attitude with a painful jolt of reality.

That's a hard way to learn a simple lesson.


I don't know if the 200 jump recommendation is a good thing or not, I'm not involved in the training/learning progression thing anymore so I don't have a reference to what, when & how people should move forward...but the folks that ARE into that part of the sport, seem to agree it's an appropriate line so I have to concur. . .Yeah - taking the advise of people that KNOW. Wink


runnit  (E 2266)

Jun 23, 2010, 2:03 PM
Post #81 of 294 (1434 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... A camera adds a lot to that same jump with a lot more unpredictability...

... how the camera causes people to fly differently than they would without one.

These 2 points hit the nail on the head for me. After how ever many hundred skydives flying outside video and stills, there are still base jumps where I will flat out not run my gopro just because it's an add on that I really don't want/need to deal with at the time.

And despite any best intentions, if I've got a camera on my head there's always that subconscious thought that "if I just do this during the jump, the footage will look farkin cool." I've found it's almost an automatic reflex and I'm doing it before I've realised (base and skydive).

200 jumps may or may not be the magic number for someone being (un)experienced, but it at least gives a reference point to separate the people who'll charge in blindly from the people who'll take the time to stop and think about why that criteria's there in the 1st place.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:09 PM
Post #82 of 294 (1390 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not very many years ago someone with 200 jumps would have been well respected and thought to have done a lot of jumps. With innovations in aircraft and parachute technology someone with 200 jumps still gets chump attached after it. I think we are due for a re-evaluation of what can be done at what number of jumps, and not just in relation to go pros.

Well then, let's remember that not many years ago, there was no such thing as digital video. The smallest video cameras available were Hi-8, and those weighed several pounds, and were too large to side mount. A full face camera helmet you had to clamp onto your head was the only option. As such, shooting video was much less attractive to just about everyone, the few who stepped up to the plate needed help in just getting the camera helmet together. No jump minnimum was needed because the gear created the 'filter'.

Now you can order a tapeless, light weight, HD camera for a couple hundered bucks, and it even comes with the hardware to mount it to any helmet you can think of.

Not too many years ago, a 135 was considered a hot-rod canopy, and you had to sign a waiver to purchase a 107 or 97 sq ft canopy. Swooping wasn't even a word used in relation to canopies, it was all hook turns and turf surfs. Nobody worried about downsizing, or swooping too soon because it wasn't a problem.

Now you can order a 79 sq ft canopy from the factory with no questions asked, and it's common to see jumpers making multiple revolution turns resulting swoops fast enough to fire a Cypres.

You're right, we do need to re-evalute who should be doing what and when, but not the direction you're thinking.

In terms of your continued comparison to the coach rating, let's keep in mind the real purpose of a coach. They are intended only as a 'jump buddy' to the un-licensed jumper. They are there to dirt dive, make the jump, and debrief. The un-licensed jumper is cleared to, and expected to self-jumpmaster. The coach has no responsibility for the un-licensed jumper from gear selection, to gear up, to gear checks, to exit order, to spotting, to stability in freefall, to offering hand signals, to break-off, or pull time, or flying the landing pattern, or landing. Their job is to be a jump buddy, reference in the sky, and a person to talk to afterwards.

Don't associate being able to do a simple two way with a prewritten dive flow to jumping a camera, they are two different things.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:03 PM
Post #83 of 294 (1381 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The coach has no responsibility for the un-licensed jumper from gear selection, to gear up, to gear checks, to exit order, to spotting, to stability in freefall, to offering hand signals, to break-off, or pull time, or flying the landing pattern, or landing. Their job is to be a jump buddy, reference in the sky, and a person to talk to afterwards.

Is that the minimum or is that reality? In my experience, coaches do gear up students, train them for their jumps, perform 3 gear checks for every jump, choose exit order, help teach spotting and ensure the student's spot is safe, offer hand signals, signal breakoff if needed, and talk students in on radio. While coach jumps are conducted under the supervision of an instructor, coaches have huge responsibility. Both in terms of keeping students safe and teaching them effectively so the students get their money's worth.

I'd rather see someone with 100 jumps put on a huge camera with a VCR strapped to their chest than perform a half-assed coach jump.

Dave


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:21 PM
Post #84 of 294 (1375 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is that the minimum or is that reality?

That's their function, they literally are a glorified jump buddy. Fast forward 10 jumps, and now you have a A license jumper with 28 jumps. If you, or anyone with 100+ jumps were to do a two-way with them, how would it differ that much from a coach jump? Wouldn't you dirt dive with them, and offer pointers in possible problem areas? How about give their rig a once over before walking to the plane?

These are all things people do as a matter of regular business, but none of them are required. The un-licensed jumper has been cleared to self-jumpmaster, and should be expected to do so. If the coach going with them wants to double check that they are performing that task correctly, then so be it. However, the coach is expected only to fly their slot, and break off at the correct time.

They are not there to signal a break off, they are expected to break off at the proper time just as in a 'real' skydive. They are not expected to pull for the other jumper, or intervene if that jumper has stability problems. That is not their job, and they have not been trained for that.

It's a simple proposition - participate in a two-way with an unlicensed jumper. You will take the lead in the some areas because you are the senior jumper, but that is no different than any other jump.

Yes, some jumpers make more of it than that, and in some cases that's good, and in others, not so much, but in the end being a 'coach' requires a very simple skill set, that of doing a two-way with a newbie, and should not be compared to flying a camera, which we have seen proven to be harder than it looks.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:48 PM
Post #85 of 294 (1365 views)
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Re: [jdfreefly] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The "not a distraction at all for others" part.

Not necessarily directed at the OP:
If you've got low jump numbers and think that you are somehow a more exceptional skydiver than all those that went before you to write these rules in blood you are just asking to write your own little bloody footnote on why these recommendations should be followed.

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are just like every other skydiver that came before you who was wholly convinced in their own mind that the rules should not apply to them. The chances are good that you will get lucky and get through the next 500 jumps without hurting yourself or others but that still won't mean you were right.

You can teach a monkey to skydive. You can even teach a monkey to skydive while wearing a helmet with a GoPro on it. And anyone, even a beautiful and unique snowflake can get lucky, maybe even lucky enough to get 2400 jumps. Right or wrong both the monkey and the snowflake are entitled to their opinions.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:52 PM
Post #86 of 294 (1361 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I completely disagree about the function of a coach. Coaches teach. They teach parts of first jump courses and categories E-H. They also decide if the student met the criteria of the jump and can move to the next jump/category. Coaches don't normally break off... thats the student's job. The coach just watches. ISP Category G:

Quote:
5. Break-off

a. Check altitude every four or five seconds and after each maneuver.

b. Break off without prompting.

c. Plan the break-off altitude to allow enough time to track 50 feet.

d. The most positive way to signal break-off is to turn and track.

(1) As a safety back-up in Categories G and H—

(i) If the coach waves his or her arms, immediately turn and track to the planned deployment altitude.

(ii) If the coach deploys, deploy immediately without tracking.

(iii) Deploy at planned altitude whether or not you have turned or tracked.

(iv) Never rely on the USPA Coach for breakoff or deployment cues.

(2) You are always responsible to break off and open at the planned altitude on jumps with the USPA Coach and with others after you get your license.

The coach is a safety backup. You could argue that the coach isn't responsible, since it says right there not to rely on the coach. But that's like saying an AFF instructor isn't responsible for pulling a student because students are trained to pull for themselves. Coaches are just kind of allowed to suck.

D-licensed jumpers are allowed to jump with students, but not allowed to perform the functions of a coach. Coaches are more than jump buddies. Ok, you did say glorified.

I think the coach program is poorly implemented at a lot of dropzones. Maybe that's how you came to your opinion on it. But under the ISP, coaches take on a lot of responsibility and perform a valuable service to students... when implemented properly.

Dave


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:53 PM
Post #87 of 294 (1359 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Right or wrong both the monkey and the snowflake are entitled to their opinions.

Indeed, but the opinion is about the skill level or ability of a jumper with 200 jumps, and the snowflake hasn't even reached that point while the monkey has 10 times that number of jumps, it might be time to listen to the monkey.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:10 PM
Post #88 of 294 (1349 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think the coach program is poorly implemented at a lot of dropzones. Maybe that's how you came to your opinion on it. But under the ISP, coaches take on a lot of responsibility and perform a valuable service to students... when implemented properly.

The coach program at my DZ is way above minimums. They go above and beyond in every way possible, but that's not the point. The point is that the skills required are no different than any other 100+ jump jumper doing a two way with a newbie (this is leaving out the coaches privledges regarding the FJC and such, I'm limiting it to the coach jumps for the purpose of this discussion).

It's just like flying a camera. You can exit RW stable, close in on your subject, and maintain safe proximity until break off or pull time, depending on what you're filming. That's all that's required.

Lot's of guys will freefly the exit, jockey around to get the 'good' light, make sure key parts of the skydive or action are highlighted, look around for 'the shot', and interact with the student if appropriate. Those guys are going above and beyond, but that is not required, and in a discussion of who can get the 'job' done, a guy who can achieve the minimum requirements could be called 'qualified'.

So when that poster continued to harp on the fact that you can be a 'coach' with 100 jumps, but not jump a camera until you have 200 jumps, and how that was some sort of injustice, I spoke up. The minimum requirements for performing a coach jump are much simpler than that of a camera jump. It's a basic two-way with a newbie, and the dive flow is predetermined. If you cannot perform that jump with 100+ jumps to your name, you have severely mis-managed your jumps to date, and missed out on some very basic training.

To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.


skypuppy  (D 347)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:29 PM
Post #89 of 294 (1337 views)
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Re: [The111] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think it's funny that everyone is so afraid of getting their gear touched by anyone else. We all trust each other to know their gear is safe, but if they touch our own, it's the end of the world. What exactly do you think someone might do back there?

Exactly. To those who don't like others touching your gear, I challenge you to find ONE documented example where a skydiver was injured/killed because he let another skydiver touch his rig on the plane.
________________________________________________

It's none of your business who I want or don't want touching my gear in the plane, so don't tell me to look for examples. I've possibly been doing this longer than you've been alive, I'm a rigger and a senior instructor. I don't have to justify my beliefs to you.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:34 PM
Post #90 of 294 (1336 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.... To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.

I can share with you a photograph of a student that was being filmed by a newly minted coach. The coach added a camera. They both went low. The student had 2 out.
The newly minted coach is now a very good instructor and will be one of the first to admit they screwed up by wearing the camera (was around the 10th skydive with a camera).
That coach is a fairly regular poster. Maybe they'll have something to add to this convo.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:46 PM
Post #91 of 294 (1326 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.

I'm just curious... which do you think most distracts a jumper from their own personal awareness?

1. Jumping out with another person who you intend to coach; matching their fall rate, paying attention to their form, watching their maneuvers, watching their track at break-off.

or

2. Jumping with a GoPro on your helmet?


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 23, 2010, 8:49 PM)


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:00 PM
Post #92 of 294 (1319 views)
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Re: [davelepka & pilotdave] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I surely don’t know it all and I still learn from this site, and other sources, every day. I do however have over 1000 paid video jumps, 700 AFF jumps, and 400 coach jumps, hold a coach examiner’s rating, and supervise a fairly large coach staff at a turbine DZ. I think I am qualified to say that Dave is correct in the notion that we cannot compare jumping a camera with having a coach rating.

The biggest difference being the training that is received for the bottom of the skydive. Coaches are trained that when things do not go as expected they are to 1) achieve adequate separation 2) pull no lower than 3500’. New and upcoming camera fliers on the other hand are trained to……… well they are not trained at all and all too often when things don’t go as planned, the camera flier’s first instinct is to get it on film. Compare the two and it does not take much deduction to see who is in danger.




The rest of this post may be considered thread drift, so if you wish feel free to not read it, but I thought it important.

> I'd rather see someone with 100 jumps put on a huge camera with a
>VCR strapped to their chest than perform a half-assed coach jump

I do see your point. However: A student jumping with a coach has been cleared for self supervision by an instructor and ‘should’ be safe regardless of the coach. A coach doing half-assed coach jumps WILL be corrected by the supervising Instructor if said instructor is doing his job, it is just a matter of time. Someone doing half-assed video jumps is not safe, regardless of anyone. These half-assed jumps WILL be corrected by ……. S&TA, other jumpers, DZO, or the EARTH, or some combination thereof, it is just a matter of time.


>The coach has no responsibility for the un-licensed jumper from gear selection, to gear up,
>to gear checks, to exit order, to spotting, ………….., to offering hand signals, to
>break-off, or pull time, or flying the landing pattern, or landing. Their job is to be a jump
>buddy, reference in the sky, and a person to talk to afterwards.

A self supervised student is cleared as such only in freefall, most of the above items or not in free fall and are still fall directly under the responsibility of an Instructor. However, a coach is also responsible for all these things and is required to prove such responsibility to obtain a coach rating. Some more than others, even down to pull time even if the coach’s only real responsibility is to pull on time and therefore give the student a hint, it is still a responsibility.


>The coach has no responsibility for the un-licensed jumper from ………………,
>to stability in freefall, ……….

100% correct


>In my experience, coaches do gear up students, train them for their jumps, perform 3
>gear checks for every jump, choose exit order, help teach spotting and ensure the
>student's spot is safe, offer hand signals, signal break off if needed

Good, they should be


>In my experience, coaches …………….. talk students in on radio

For a student still having a little pattern trouble, I would be happy with any of the coaches under my supervision to talk to them on radio. However doing so, via radio or other means, is a requirement to get an AFF rating, it is not so for a coach rating.


>If the coach going with them wants to double check that they are performing that task
>correctly, then so be it. However, the coach is expected only to fly their slot, and break off
>at the correct time

Actually, a coach is REQUIRED to do all these things, including three gear checks, spotting, exit order and giving a break off signal as a means of teaching. Then if things are still going well, the coach is required to break off, gain separation, and pull. Any coach caught neglecting any of these things repetitively will not be coaching under my supervision for long.


>That's their function, they [coaches] literally are a glorified jump buddy.

I couldn’t agree more, I just don’t think you give the credit deserved for this glorification.


> I think the coach program is poorly implemented at a lot of dropzones

I could not agree more, and more in regards to training, and supervision than to the actual coaches.


>The coach program at my DZ is way above minimums……………. Lot's of guys will freefly the
>exit, jockey around to get the 'good' light, make sure key parts of the skydive or action
>are highlighted, look around for 'the shot', and interact with the student if appropriate.
>Those guys are going above and beyond, but that is not required, and in a discussion of
>who can get the 'job' done, a guy who can achieve the minimum requirements could be
>called 'qualified'

I hope I am reading this wrong and this is not what you refer to as an above minimum coach jump.


Now that the C/E in me is done ranting, both the 100 jump requirement for a coach rating and the 200 jump requirement (as it is at my DZ) for camera, are both minimums. They are both directed to the jumper with above average skills and most jumpers should wait longer. I think both numbers are a fairly accurate well balanced minimum. I would much rather see someone with 100 jumps performing a coach jump under proper supervision than that same person strapping on a camera. That is just my experience.


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:00 PM
Post #93 of 294 (1319 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.

I'm just curious... which do you think most distracts a jumper from their own personal awareness?

1. Jumping out with another person who you intend to coach; matching their fall rate, paying attention to their form, watching their maneuvers, watching their track at break-off.

or

2. Jumping with a GoPro on your helmet?

To turn the question on it's head - How long did it take you to be able to fly a slot, take grips and adjust to changing condition in the formation, by reflex? Do we not match fall rates and watch/make maneuvers on every non-solo jump?

Now add making sure that the shot is framed correctly, the light is right, the background is right, etc etc and sticking a camera on your head doesn't sound quite so easy anymore, does it?

I'm obviously not a camera flyer, but I am an amateur photographer - those thoughts *DO* go through your mind when you have a camera in your hand.


(This post was edited by mnealtx on Jun 23, 2010, 9:03 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:13 PM
Post #94 of 294 (1310 views)
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Re: [azureriders] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The coach program at my DZ is way above minimums……………. Lot's of guys will freefly the
>exit, jockey around to get the 'good' light, make sure key parts of the skydive or action
>are highlighted, look around for 'the shot', and interact with the student if appropriate.
>Those guys are going above and beyond, but that is not required, and in a discussion of
>who can get the 'job' done, a guy who can achieve the minimum requirements could be
>called 'qualified'

I hope I am reading this wrong and this is not what you refer to as an above minimum coach jump.

Yes, you read that wrong.

For the sake of my argument, I was offering examples of the 'bare minimum' required for a paid video jump, and the 'above and beyond' some camera flyers choose to apply.

That description is of an 'above and beyond' type effort on a video jump.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:27 PM
Post #95 of 294 (1299 views)
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Re: [mnealtx] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now add making sure that the shot is framed correctly, the light is right, the background is right, etc etc and sticking a camera on your head doesn't sound quite so easy anymore, does it?

There in lies the problem with this argument... I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit. I think their mainly thinking the same thing as every other jump, lets try to get a good exit, stay together, get a dock, etc... but maybe that's just me.

In fact... I think that more often than not the person without the camera is probably more distracted than the person with the camera, thinking 'I want to get in that shot'. Maybe we should require people to have 200 jumps just to jump with other people that are wearing cameras.


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 23, 2010, 9:32 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:31 PM
Post #96 of 294 (1296 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm just curious... which do you think most distracts a jumper from their own personal awareness?

1. Jumping out with another person who you intend to coach; matching their fall rate, paying attention to their form, watching their maneuvers, watching their track at break-off.

or

2. Jumping with a GoPro on your helmet?

I vote for the GoPro.

Doing an RW two way jump is a basic skill that, thanks to the coach jump requirements, every A licensed skydiver has experience with. There's is a VERY good chance that beyond their own coach jumps, most jumpers go on to participate in various RW jumps of one size or another, so the concept is not foriegn to them. Even a die hard freeflyer who seeks a coach rating will knock out a few practice RW jumps leading up to the coach course. By the time you have earned a coach rating, a basic RW two-way jump is well within your skill set.

All of the activities you named directly involve both parties, and both have reviewed the dive flow, and completed the dirt dives to their own satisfaction. They are both paying attention to each other, and both on the same page.

Take the guy with the GoPro. What's the plan? Fly outside video? OK, during the entire skydive, that jumper is ignored and left to his own 100 jump devices. He is doing a 'job', and that job is Camera Flyer (intentionally capitalized). Nobody is paying attention to him, and he is paying very close attention to his 'job', not his 'jump'.

OK, forget outside video. Maybe he just wants to film from inside. Great. Now he is part of the jump, but he also has his own little jump going in his head. He's front floater on the exit, but this time he's going to look back up at the plane on exit, not toward the center of the formation, you know, to get the shot. Or maybe he's a diver and he figures he can just hang above the formation until everyone else is in, and then he'll just 'grab his slot real quick', you know, to get some footage (everyone has a Youtube video in their head they would love to make a reality).

Then comes break off, where in either case the new guy is likely to do just about anything you could imagine, you know, to get the shot.

See? The coach jump is structred and contained. It's a two way, and the coach has a very specific job - exit tight, stay relative, break off on time, pull on time. No matter what happens to the 'student', the coaches job does not change.

Some guy with a camera, on some jump, with some number of people, doing some type of freefall skydiving aptly describes a 100 jump wonder set loose on a DZ with a GoPro. It could be anything and everything, and I don't think a guy with 100 jumps has the accumen to handle that wide open of a situation.


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:32 PM
Post #97 of 294 (1294 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, you read that wrong.

For the sake of my argument, I was offering examples of the 'bare minimum' required for a paid video jump, and the 'above and beyond' some camera flyers choose to apply.

That description is of an 'above and beyond' type effort on a video jump.

Ah, sorry about that. I see what you meant now.


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:36 PM
Post #98 of 294 (1290 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Now add making sure that the shot is framed correctly, the light is right, the background is right, etc etc and sticking a camera on your head doesn't sound quite so easy anymore, does it?

There in lies the problem with this argument... I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit. I think their mainly thinking the same thing as every other jump, lets try to get a good exit, stay together, get a dock, etc... but maybe that's just me.

In fact... I think that more often than not the person without the camera is probably more distracted than the person with the camera, thinking 'I want to get in that shot'. Maybe we should require people to have 200 jumps just to jump with other people that are wearing cameras.

You may be right on both parts, but I think billvon's mention of the problems he had with the bellypack camera negates your first instance - I could very well be wrong, though.

I'd be willing to bet that just about every camera flyer here has had an instance where they missed a shot BECAUSE they were trying to get the shot framed right, the right background, etc etc...


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:43 PM
Post #99 of 294 (1285 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you when you concoct all of those various scenarios, but I just feel that you are over complicating the use of a camera in a typical fun jump.

I would apply the same statement I just made above to respond here:

"There in lies the problem with this argument... I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit. I think their mainly thinking the same thing as every other jump, lets try to get a good exit, stay together, get a dock, etc... but maybe that's just me.

In fact... I think that more often than not the person without the camera is probably more distracted than the person with the camera, thinking 'I want to get in that shot'. Maybe we should require people to have 200 jumps just to jump with other people that are wearing cameras."

For the record I don't think the 200 jump recommendation should change for camera use... and I feel that 'Coaches' should be required to have 200 jumps instead of 100.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 23, 2010, 11:09 PM
Post #100 of 294 (1262 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their
>buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit.

They don't think they are, but history has shown that they do. As mentioned previously, DSE now has a fairly long list of people who _did_ get distracted by some of that stuff.

Reminds me of the low time guy who swoops near the beer line but swears up and down that he's not 'distracted' by the crowd, he's not just showing off, he can land wherever he wants and that just happens to be the best spot etc.

>In fact... I think that more often than not the person without the camera
>is probably more distracted than the person with the camera, thinking 'I
>want to get in that shot'.

Quite possible. However, there are also a great many skydivers who, by the time they graduate AFF, have already learned to deal with that particular distraction. (And after doing video for a lot of AFF's, it is sometimes something they have to learn to deal with.)


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