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Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not?

 

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rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 12:56 PM
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bill, if you and I were sitting on a plane and I pushed you forward and said...... "Hold up, we have a problem here." Your saying you wouldn't let me fix your gear? Of course I would tell you what the problem was and what I did to fix it.

you spoke up and didn't just start clawing at me - you also noted you'd tell me what you saw and what you did - that's also not the scenario I'm opposed to

But seriously, what's wrong with changing the order?

1 - "Hey Bill - something looks weird with your gear. Mind if I take a look?"
2 - "What do you see?"
3 - explain
4 - "thanks a lot, go ahead" or "that's normal for this rig, I appreciate you looking" or "thanks a ton, I'll have my teammate take a look"

Would you be upset at the above?



If some stranger pushed me forward and starting pushing and pulling at stuff without saying a word - I'd be very upset and most likely have to have someone I trust now take a second look incase the first guy just tried to kill me for all the right reasons.


Example? - my preference is curved main pin points up and I pack that way. I saw one guy with the opposite viewpoint (pin points down) take a perfectly good pack and try to twist the pin from up to down on a rig in front of him where he was doing an unsolicited pin check. He nearly pulled the pin out. By the time he was stopped, the bridle was partly loose, the pin looked loose, the hacky was hanging out, etc.

I'm not really ready for someone (well meaning in their mind) to do something stupid to my gear.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 22, 2010, 1:03 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 12:59 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

exception?

the door is open and my pilot chute is lying on the ground -

this type of issue is best acted upon WHILE informing everybody verbally

and THANK you very much for grabbing my pilot chute/loose bag/pin fallout/undone chest strap/incorrectly routed 3-ring/etc/etc/etc


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:02 PM
Post #53 of 294 (1165 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If some stranger pushed me forward and starting pushing and pulling at stuff without saying a word - I'd be very upset and most likely have to have someone I trust now take a second look incase the first guy just tried to kill me for all the right reasons.

Nothing wrong with that. Completely acceptable to think that way.

Again, my point is that some think they are above having their gear checked period. I bet you are a guy that has his gear checked by a teammate anyway.


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:06 PM
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you did it while I was doing the final talkthrough with a student, or your pushing me knocked my camera into the O2 manifold - I'd be pretty annoyed.

Bill you have been on many plane rides with me. Have you ever seen me to anything even close to that?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:07 PM
Post #55 of 294 (1153 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

another? I have a freefly pud because I don't like that flapping hacky back there.

When I jump my wife's rig (hacky) I take that hacky and PC and push it all the way in and then pull the hacky out such that it's up tight against the pouch lip.

I had someone pull the hacky out so it was loose and floppy (like 'they' prefer) and not tell me (a teammate pointed it out and we had to fix it). They meant well, but that's just pissing with the gear to satisfy their toilet training. I really didn't need a floating hacky - not a safety issue, but why touch it in the first place. It would have been really simple to just tap my shoulder and say, "Hey, your hacky is pretty tight - I'm worried it'll slip into your pouch" then I could feel the hacky, let him know it's how I like it, and then THANK him for being a decent and watchful friend.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:08 PM
Post #56 of 294 (1151 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, my point is that some think they are above having their gear checked period. I bet you are a guy that has his gear checked by a teammate anyway.

no, usually I check it myself a few times on the ride up - I've seen too many stupid things

I'm not opposed to gear checks
I'm opposed to someone doing it without my permission or knowledge


if I ever own a go-pro, you have my permission to mess with it on jump run.....Laugh


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 22, 2010, 1:10 PM)


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:14 PM
Post #57 of 294 (1143 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess we wont be talking about go pros in this thread then.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:23 PM
Post #58 of 294 (1132 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I guess we wont be talking about go pros in this thread then.

God I hope not...those things will KILL ya! Angelic


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 22, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #59 of 294 (1117 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Bill you have been on many plane rides with me. Have you ever seen me
>to anything even close to that?

No, nor have you ever pushed me to get at my rig. (And if you did see something wrong I'd have no problem with you trying to fix it; just let me know beforehand.)


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:50 PM
Post #60 of 294 (1116 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're just being a snooty sky god.

Edit to add something useful:

I think much of what people are saying here wrt gear checks is just common sense. You don't go start mucking with people's gear without asking them first, and you don't change something on their gear without asking them first.

The only time I have ever manhandled someone was when they were walking back from the open door of a half empty otter and their pilot chute had stayed behind snagged on a cable used to hold up the seats. Every other time it's a gentle tap on the shoulder and then telling them what I see and asking if they want me to help fix it. I will usually follow that up with asking if they would like a full gear check because if I've seen one thing for concern who knows what else may be lurking.

I try to respect the wishes of those who don't want gear checks, but I do think it sets a better example for newer jumpers to set the expectation that they should be comfortable receiving and giving a gear check and also how to do it properly.


(This post was edited by jdfreefly on Jun 22, 2010, 1:56 PM)


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 2:38 PM
Post #61 of 294 (1086 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I guess we wont be talking about go pros in this thread then.

God I hope not...those things will KILL ya! Angelic

...not to mention the video quality sucks! Ive seen better resolution on a VHS! Cool


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:34 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked

I'm not sure that waiting until they bounce is the best way to identify those who may be distracted.

So do you believe that 200 is the magic number to no longer being distracted?????

Do you think we should implement a camera cert course? Maybe 7 camera jumps with an instructor to get signed off??


I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less focused and has 500, 1000, 2000, jumps etc....

I don't think the 200 jump requirement should be lowered... I just think that wearing a camera may be a big distraction for some and not a distraction at all for others.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:40 PM
Post #63 of 294 (1030 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Texting and playing a video game while drinking Mountain Dew and eating a pizza is not the same things as being distracted by a video camera when yours and others lives are on the line.

They sure as shit do plenty of texting and driving which is more distracting and dangerous than a helmet GoPro during a dive.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:44 PM
Post #64 of 294 (1028 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...not to mention the video quality sucks! Ive seen better resolution on a VHS! Cool

Where you been???? They have this thing called HD now, you should check it out. Cool


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 12:39 AM
Post #65 of 294 (1005 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked

I'm not sure that waiting until they bounce is the best way to identify those who may be distracted.

So do you believe that 200 is the magic number to no longer being distracted?????

Do you think we should implement a camera cert course? Maybe 7 camera jumps with an instructor to get signed off??


I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less focused and has 500, 1000, 2000, jumps etc....

I don't think the 200 jump requirement should be lowered... I just think that wearing a camera may be a big distraction for some and not a distraction at all for others.

If you can be a coach at 100 then you should be able to fly a go pro. Or raise the coach limit to 200. Its almost like the 18 to vote and serve in the military but you cant drink until 21 argument.

Also I think there is a difference between having a "proper" camera on the side of your head and a stills on the top and all the crazy bite switches and cutaway chin cups that go with it and then a go pro. Most people with a go pro arent videographers. They just want to see what ends up on the camera and put it on youtube. Im probably in the minority but I have no problem with small cameras at less than 200.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jun 23, 2010, 5:06 AM
Post #66 of 294 (964 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... Im probably in the minority but I have no problem with small cameras at less than 200.

Yes you are in the minority. The issue is not the amount or complexity of the camera gear. The issue is: Camera vs. No Camera. A camera, regardless of complexity, introduces distraction that a low-time jumper may have trouble with. Certainly, more complexity may mean more distraction, but the very existence of a camera of any kind can cause enough distraction in some people to compromise their safety. Is this always directly related to total experience level? Most evidence says it is. Can some people become too distracted no matter what their experience level? Yes. Practicality dictates that jump numbers is a good way to "generalize" the requirements, without constructing a complex evaluation protocol.


jumpwally  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:28 AM
Post #67 of 294 (929 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

............and a snag hazard is a snag hazard....Done


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:41 AM
Post #68 of 294 (920 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked

I'm not sure that waiting until they bounce is the best way to identify those who may be distracted.

So do you believe that 200 is the magic number to no longer being distracted?????

Do you think we should implement a camera cert course? Maybe 7 camera jumps with an instructor to get signed off??


I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less focused and has 500, 1000, 2000, jumps etc....

I don't think the 200 jump requirement should be lowered... I just think that wearing a camera may be a big distraction for some and not a distraction at all for others.

nice post.

This is why 200 jumps is a minimum. We are not saying that everyone will be ready at 200 jumps. Some should wait longer. Yes some may be ready sooner but I agree that we should not lower the minimum, lowering the minimum to fit the very very few is just silly in my opinion.

I have been approached by many who want to fly camera early, as well as approaching others with a camera already mounted. I do not argue that they are above average or have mad skills, I simply state that the 200 jump minimum is for them. Then I go to explain that many skydivers should wait for 300, 500, or even never to put a camera on. Once you put it in perspective for them, that you agree they may be ready for a camera when they only have the bare minimum of jumps required (200), most leave with a new confidience that no one is holding them back and begin to look forward to the expereince to come.

I wish it was that easy on the net.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:42 AM
Post #69 of 294 (918 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you can be a coach at 100 then you should be able to fly a go pro. Or raise the coach limit to 200.

I agree, raise the coach limit - if we don't think someone can check themselves with a camera, what business do they have also being 'partially' responsible for another.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 23, 2010, 10:24 AM
Post #70 of 294 (860 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>So do you believe that 200 is the magic number to no longer being distracted?

No magic there. There's no magic numbers anywhere in skydiving, just numbers that seem to work pretty well.

>I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of
>multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be
>as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less
>focused . . ..

What's magic about 100? If they are that capable, why not at AFF graduation?

The basic problem here is that EVERYONE THINKS THEY ARE MORE CAPABLE. That's why I try to make it clear that only the more-capable people should do camera at all, and those should wait until 200 jumps before they try it.

DSE has a long list of people who have had problems being dangerously distracted by a camera, including a recent one who just hit the 200 jump mark, jumped a camera, and almost broke themselves very badly. It's happened to me as well. All those people thought they were more capable. And they probably were - but you need the ability to focus, the ability to ignore distractions, the ability to multi-task, the ability to fly without thinking about it AND the experience to safely jump a camera.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 23, 2010, 10:39 AM
Post #71 of 294 (868 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we've seen plenty of examples to say you are just plain wrong.

We already had some jackass on these forums jumping a gopro with under 200 jumps bragging about how he had the presence of mind to muck with his camera helmet in the middle of dealing with a malfunction...the best part was that in the end he still didn't think it was a big deal.

In the last year I've seen people with under 500 jumps jumping gopros go low and have a cypress fire, missroute a chest strap and viciously take someone out on a freefly jump.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 23, 2010, 11:11 AM
Post #72 of 294 (845 views)
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Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just gotta share this PM from last week. I won't identify the poster/PM, but check this out...Crazy

Quote:
I see that to fly with a camera at 200 jumps is a recommendation, not a BSR. USPA members pledge to enforce BSR's according to the USPA web site.

If at a DZ and they prohibit someone from camera flying according to the recommendation, does the jumper have any recourse against the DZ as a licensed jumper and USPA member (who paid their dues for some type of representation)?

I think many jumpers forget that many skydivers in the sport can only jump a few times/month and 200 jumps will take several years (eg, this is not our livelihood just an enjoyable activity/pursuit).


Between some incidents I already knew about, and three more sent to me in PM, we're now up to 14 incidents/issues/oopsies with small format cameras (since January, 2010) ranging from not remembering to wear goggles on a jump to broken bones. If we count three that I was aware of from 2010...that's a fair number that we KNOW about. I'm willing to bet there are 3 more for every one we know of.
There is one fatality that has a loose relationship to a small format camera and very low jump numbers, but I'm not wanting to say the camera played a role in the death, just the attitude that the jumper had about cameras, low experience, and "skillz."

I've gotta say I'm a little stunned that someone would actually ask the question "do I have any recourse against a DZ if they won't let me jump a camera til I have 200 jumps." Especially someone who understands they're not very current. Unsure

Lemme see if I understand this right; We don't want people suing a DZ in the event of an incident, but there are skydivers thatwould like recourse if a DZ wants skydivers to adhere to the USPA recommendations?


(This post was edited by DSE on Jun 23, 2010, 11:12 AM)


beowulf  (C License)

Jun 23, 2010, 11:29 AM
Post #73 of 294 (823 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say that person does not fully understand just how easy it is to be seriously injured or killed while skydiving. It doesn't take much of a distraction to find yourself in bad situation. Even highly experienced and current skydivers can be distracted, but often they have the skills and the focus to deal with a less then ideal situation. The best option is not to allow yourself to be put into a bad situation, but it doesn't always work out that way.


Hellis

Jun 23, 2010, 11:39 AM
Post #74 of 294 (815 views)
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Re: Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont understand why "everyone" seems to think its such a problem with having a 200 jump recomendation.

Yes some people can handle the distraction and all that, but then there are thosewho get distracted by breathing.
Seriously would you want some yahoo whos done 10 jumps on your load with camera on his head when you see him on the ground holdig his breath when hes tying his shoes because he cant focus on two things at the same time?

If you have a 200 jump limit this guy will notice hes in the wrong sport well before he reaches 200 jumps or *natural selection* will take care of him when hes struggeling with his knot.

As in the pm DSE posted, there might be some people that ARE capable with camera sub 200 that will get "punnished" by this, but why not let the S&TA determin if they find such a star?

I was offerd to jump with camera sub 200 but i said no, because i still felt i learnd to much during the jumps.
I still learn during my jumps but i feel alot more confident with all the "what ifs" than i did at 100 jumps.


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 11:42 AM
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Re: [jdfreefly] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the last year I've seen people with under 500 jumps jumping gopros go low and have a cypress fire, missroute a chest strap and viciously take someone out on a freefly jump.

Just to play devils advocate since this is the internet and nothing will ever come of it...

Have you not seen this on people with over 500 jumps? Camera or not? DZ.com always needs something to bitch about it seems. It used to be low turns, then it was downsizing, now its go pros. First it they were bitching about the quality, now its those wanting to jump it.

I predict that they will be allowed to be jumped at around 100 jumps or coaching will be raised to 200.

Its funny how technology sort of creates discussions. Not very many years ago someone with 200 jumps would have been well respected and thought to have done a lot of jumps. With innovations in aircraft and parachute technology someone with 200 jumps still gets chump attached after it. I think we are due for a re-evaluation of what can be done at what number of jumps, and not just in relation to go pros.


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