Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not?

 


Premier RickH  (D 18955)

Jun 21, 2010, 8:04 AM
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Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? Can't Post

I would like to pass on to the skydiving community a lesson that should be learned by all jumpers.

A jumper with approx. 50 jumps was gearing up and getting ready to board the plane, a highly experienced camera person noticed that this jumper had a Go Pro camera attached on top of his helmet. The jumper was questioned about his skill level, the jumper stated that the Go Pro is very small and that in no way will it ever get hung on his risers on opening, so his opinion was that it should not fall under USPA guidelines: of a recommendation of 200 skydives should be performed before flying a camera.
The jumper boarded the plane and performed his skydive. The incident was brought to my attention and the jumper was questioned by me immediately following his jump.
As we were talking I could tell the jumper was visibly nervous, he began to explain to me that after he deployed his parachute he noticed that his chest strap had been misrouted. Lesson learned!
A camera is a DISTRACTION! Like it or not! I asked this jumper how many times he checked his camera to make sure it was on before he left the plane? He said he checked it multiple times. It is obvious that after he geared up, he never once checked himself, before he entered the plane, never checked his gear, while in the plane and before exiting he never checked his gear.....he checked his camera multiple times.
After this incident, I walked around to other low time jumpers and found that their were others with Go Pro cameras.
I have since spoken to all jumpes at our DZ regarding the use of Go Pro cameras, and have made it mandatory tha we adhere to USPA recommendations....even if it is just a Go Pro....it is a camera!


MajorDad  (D 579)

Jun 21, 2010, 8:15 AM
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Re: [RickH] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting about this near-miss.

Seems that since these things are small and inexpensive, lots of people are getting them before they should.

The 200 jump recommendation is a good one.

However there will always be those with Mad Skillz who will complain about being held back...

Blue Ones,


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 21, 2010, 8:45 AM
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Re: [RickH] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Opps # 11 logged due to small format cameras. I'm sure there are lots more.
Thanks for posting.


brettski74  (C 3197)

Jun 21, 2010, 10:28 AM
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Re: [RickH] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the jumper stated that the Go Pro is very small and that in no way will it ever get hung on his risers on opening, so his opinion was that it should not fall under USPA guidelines

Interesting that a guy with 50 jumps thinks that he has the knowledge and experience to decide both why particular recommendations exist and whether or not they should apply to him/her. That almost never happens!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 21, 2010, 10:32 AM
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Opps # 11 logged due to small format cameras. I'm sure there are lots more.

Are you keeping a log of these? It would be great to have for the next "I'll just turn it on and forget about it" bumpkin.


likestojump1975

Jun 21, 2010, 11:01 AM
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

alot of them are keeping it in their pockets and waiting until jump-run to snap it on and hit record. that way no one on the ground sees them to ask them about it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 21, 2010, 11:14 AM
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Re: [likestojump1975] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>alot of them are keeping it in their pockets and waiting until jump-run to
>snap it on and hit record.

Cool. So they're distracted in freefall _and_ jump run.

Had a guy with about 300 jumps on the plane last week doing a solo tracking practice dive. He had a camera on with a .3 lens. Perhaps he was going to film his feet.


Psychonaut  (C License)

Jun 21, 2010, 11:41 AM
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Had a guy with about 300 jumps on the plane last week doing a solo tracking practice dive. He had a camera on with a .3 lens. Perhaps he was going to film his feet.

HAHA! +1


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 21, 2010, 11:44 AM
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Re: [RickH] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As we were talking I could tell the jumper was visibly nervous, he began to explain to me that after he deployed his parachute he noticed that his chest strap had been misrouted. Lesson learned!

How many skygod/camera gods were on the flightline and didnt notice his chest strap being misrouted? Maybe they were too busy seeing who had the most jump numbers or the sickest camera set up on the lift instead of checking each others gear?

/cynical


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 21, 2010, 12:04 PM
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would we spend time checking each other's gear when we could spend that time high fiving each other prior to exit? Next you're going to expect a pin check.

/sarcastic


virgin-burner

Jun 21, 2010, 3:11 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
As we were talking I could tell the jumper was visibly nervous, he began to explain to me that after he deployed his parachute he noticed that his chest strap had been misrouted. Lesson learned!

How many skygod/camera gods were on the flightline and didnt notice his chest strap being misrouted? Maybe they were too busy seeing who had the most jump numbers or the sickest camera set up on the lift instead of checking each others gear?

/cynical

In reply to:
Why would we spend time checking each other's gear when we could spend that time high fiving each other prior to exit? Next you're going to expect a pin check.

/sarcastic

how bout those that actually have learned to maintain and check their gear for themselves!?

and while we're at it, i dont like ANYONE even put their small finger on my gear, if i dont ask them to; and i wont, unless i think i've forgotten something, or have concerns something got dislodged or whatever.. Crazy


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 21, 2010, 3:48 PM
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Opps # 11 logged due to small format cameras. I'm sure there are lots more.

Are you keeping a log of these? It would be great to have for the next "I'll just turn it on and forget about it" bumpkin.

Yep...Keeping a log. I'm figuring my "oops" column is around a 3:1 (for every one heard about, there are three that go unreported)


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 21, 2010, 4:36 PM
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Re: [virgin-burner] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to assume that you are not being sarcastic, but if you are my apologies.

While I completely understand this attitude, I really detest it. If you don't have confidence in the people you jump with to adequately and safely give you a gear check then spend some time with them on the ground reviewing it.

When a newer jumper sees you refusing a gear check in the plane they will be that much more likely to do the same. It sets a very bad example.

Also, I'm sure you think that you don't need one, but my experience is that you are wrong. A friend of mine (who was a jumpmaster) came down from a load once and threw his rig on the ground only to have his reserve pilot chute hit him in the face. He thinks the pin got pushed up in the plane and since he too was of the opinion that he didn't need a gear check it was not caught before exit. I've never seen him jump since without getting a gear check from someone else before exiting.

Check your shit, check your friends shit and have your friends check your shit or one of you could be in a world of shit.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 21, 2010, 4:52 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

threw his rig on the ground only to have his reserve pilot chute hit him in the face.

Maybe throwing his rig on the ground wasn't such a good idea huh? Wink

I too will give a gear check when asked, but DO NOT like anyone I don't know, or haven't asked... fiddling with my gear when it's on my back.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 21, 2010, 5:00 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

To be clear, it's never a good idea to just start messing with someone's gear. I just don't like the attitude of not trusting other skydivers to check your gear. If I can't trust you to check my gear, I don't really want to be in the same plane as you.

Edit to stop the highjack: Yes it's a fucking camera!


(This post was edited by jdfreefly on Jun 21, 2010, 5:01 PM)


The111  (D 29246)

Jun 21, 2010, 5:38 PM
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Had a guy with about 300 jumps on the plane last week doing a solo tracking practice dive. He had a camera on with a .3 lens. Perhaps he was going to film his feet.

To play devil's advocate... my first camera jump was a solo wingsuit jump with a .3 lens on my video camera. I had about 400 jumps.

However, back on the other side of the argument: on that same jump I chased a cloud too far (for pretty footage) and almost broke my ankle landing off near lots of tall trees with nasty wind shear.

If you have a new camera setup that you intend to jump with people eventually, I do think it is a good idea to jump it solo first. But it is still a distraction, even then.


(This post was edited by The111 on Jun 21, 2010, 5:38 PM)


virgin-burner

Jun 21, 2010, 5:57 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm going to assume that you are not being sarcastic, but if you are my apologies.

While I completely understand this attitude, I really detest it. If you don't have confidence in the people you jump with to adequately and safely give you a gear check then spend some time with them on the ground reviewing it.

When a newer jumper sees you refusing a gear check in the plane they will be that much more likely to do the same. It sets a very bad example.

Also, I'm sure you think that you don't need one, but my experience is that you are wrong. A friend of mine (who was a jumpmaster) came down from a load once and threw his rig on the ground only to have his reserve pilot chute hit him in the face. He thinks the pin got pushed up in the plane and since he too was of the opinion that he didn't need a gear check it was not caught before exit. I've never seen him jump since without getting a gear check from someone else before exiting.

Check your shit, check your friends shit and have your friends check your shit or one of you could be in a world of shit.

nope, not really.. 'twardo had a good post on it as well!

around here, u're supposed to have stuff checked yourself; poor you if you havent!


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 21, 2010, 6:25 PM
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Re: [virgin-burner] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i dont like ANYONE even put their small finger on my gear, if i dont ask them to

I'd be pissed if someone just started touching my gear (pin check etc..) without me asking them to. I always do a pre and in-flight gear check myself and will occasionally ask for a pin check if I feel the need. 90% of the time I am the last one to check/adjust my gear and I prefer it that way.


virgin-burner

Jun 21, 2010, 6:31 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
i dont like ANYONE even put their small finger on my gear, if i dont ask them to

I'd be pissed if someone just started touching my gear (pin check etc..) without me asking them to. I always do a pre and in-flight gear check myself and will occasionally ask for a pin check if I feel the need. 90% of the time I am the last one to check/adjust my gear and I prefer it that way.

IMHO it should be more like 99%; but good job going there! Smile


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 21, 2010, 6:42 PM
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I think it's funny that everyone is so afraid of getting their gear touched by anyone else. We all trust each other to know their gear is safe, but if they touch our own, it's the end of the world. What exactly do you think someone might do back there? I mean don't get me wrong, I don't need tandem students playing with my gear, but if a jumper with more experience than me decides there's something they feel the need to check out back there, I'm usually going to be ok with that. It's nice when they ask first, but in a loud jump plane things happen.

This sport requires us to trust each other. When your pin falls out as you climb out, everyone else could pay the price. Every licensed skydiver SHOULD know how to give a gear check. You don't need to trust them all, but you should learn to trust some of em. Our gear is all about the same. Yours (not to anyone in particular) isn't special.

Back on to the topic of this thread, its starting to look like we should be handing out gopros at first jump courses because everyone's going to have one soon enough. In my experience, most of the new jumpers using them don't even know the SIM has any recommendations for camera flying.

I was just talking to an old timer with 2000+ jumps who's been in the sport forever. He told me he tried a gopro for a while just to get some inside video of his own jumps. He found it so distracting that he got rid of it. And yet everyone with 50 jumps doesn't get distracted at all. It's a miracle.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Jun 21, 2010, 6:47 PM)


The111  (D 29246)

Jun 21, 2010, 6:55 PM
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In reply to:
I think it's funny that everyone is so afraid of getting their gear touched by anyone else. We all trust each other to know their gear is safe, but if they touch our own, it's the end of the world. What exactly do you think someone might do back there?

Exactly. To those who don't like others touching your gear, I challenge you to find ONE documented example where a skydiver was injured/killed because he let another skydiver touch his rig on the plane.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 21, 2010, 8:02 PM
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In reply to:

I was just talking to an old timer with 2000+ jumps who's been in the sport forever. He told me he tried a gopro for a while just to get some inside video of his own jumps. He found it so distracting that he got rid of it. And yet everyone with 50 jumps doesn't get distracted at all. It's a miracle.

Dave

The youth of today have grown up living their lives with multiple "distractions". I'd go as far as to say that some of them wouldn't know what to do WITHOUT some type of camera on them at all times.

Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Jun 21, 2010, 8:05 PM
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Re: [The111] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not injured or killed but I've had stuff mucked up. If you jump non-common gear its easy.

Once had a pullout handle loose in the airplane. I asked a friend to stick it back in. He did, but unfortunately shoved it down the BOC pouch that was also on the rig. I noticed that one on jump run!

Multiple times now I have had people tuck the walrus teeth on Racers underneath the bottom flap instead of the top flap (one was even a rigger!) That can possibly cause a container lock if the rig is tight enough. Luckily I always discovered those when reaching back for my own personal gear check in the plane and fixed it myself.

If you jump "non-typical" gear people can screw it up. That's why I'm paranoid.. THey haven't hurt me but they have screwed it up.

(Oh and I have had people try and pull my pilot chute cap off to check the reserve pin too :-)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 21, 2010, 8:17 PM
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Re: [The111] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think it's funny that everyone is so afraid of getting their gear touched by anyone else. We all trust each other to know their gear is safe, but if they touch our own, it's the end of the world. What exactly do you think someone might do back there?

Exactly. To those who don't like others touching your gear, I challenge you to find ONE documented example where a skydiver was injured/killed because he let another skydiver touch his rig on the plane.

I don't want to find any examples...just like I don't want you touching my gear.

Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

1/2 you people can't spot, pack or land without slamming into each other or the ground...yeah I really want yer 'expertise' all over my gear...SlyTongue


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 21, 2010, 9:30 PM
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In reply to:
To those who don't like others touching your gear, I challenge you to find ONE documented example where a skydiver was injured/killed because he let another skydiver touch his rig on the plane.

I don't know about anyone being killed, but I do know that an experienced jumper had never seen a bridle routed the way I route it and when pulling my pin cover he pulled my pin. My reserve pin cover is off limits.
FWIW, for the eval jumps I route my bridle like most others, and still had it popped on the ground.
In 11 gear checks yesterday alone, my pin was popped on the ground. No one died when my pin was popped in the plane, but there wasn't enough time to re-close the container in the plane and I wasn't happy about riding back down.

There are those I trust and those I don't. I don't want others touching my gear without first asking (if for no reason other than courtesy). I'd submit many others feel the same. As an examiner, there are jumps where you *have* to trust, and hope nothing happens.

Back to the original post/point...a small format camera is a camera, and of course is a distraction.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jun 21, 2010, 9:37 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jun 21, 2010, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
I don't know about anyone being killed, but I do know that an experienced jumper had never seen a bridle routed the way I route it and when pulling my pin cover he pulled my pin.

What do you do that's so unusual (and why do you choose to do it that way)? Why is it so easy to pop the pin just by lifting the flap?


The111  (D 29246)

Jun 21, 2010, 10:49 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't want to find any examples...just like I don't want you touching my gear.

Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

1/2 you people can't spot, pack or land without slamming into each other or the ground...yeah I really want yer 'expertise' all over my gear...SlyTongue

Fair enough... I grasp. Smile

FWIW, I do my own pin checks 99% of the time, but if the flap comes open somehow I ask for someone else to look at it. And I'd never touch somebody else's rig without asking, but I'd sure as shit tap them on the shoulder if I saw something of concern.


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 3:24 AM
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Re: [The111] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread in a nutshell is one of the major things wrong with skydiving today. Unless youre jumping some super secret gear that only the CIA jumps your gear is in a standard dual container single harness configuration. Its not special and neither are you. Do you just walk from the hangar to the aircraft without having anyone check you? You have almost a million jumps so youre awesome and perfect right? No need.
Sure there are small variations between different pieces of kit but the misrouting of the chestrap is the same. Twisting your leg straps is the same, etc. You need to be checked.
These are the same threads where peoples heads explode when someone asks about canopy downsizing but we dare not lay a finger on your rig. Taking grips and holding hands during free fall is ok though. You can hold my chest strap or mud flaps on exit, just dont check them on the flight line. Gotcha.


flipper  (D 11524)

Jun 22, 2010, 3:39 AM
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In reply to:
Quote:
I don't know about anyone being killed, but I do know that an experienced jumper had never seen a bridle routed the way I route it and when pulling my pin cover he pulled my pin.

What do you do that's so unusual (and why do you choose to do it that way)? Why is it so easy to pop the pin just by lifting the flap?

+1

Am real interested in seeing how you route the bridle ... what advantages does it give you the way that you currently route it ?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 5:35 AM
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This thread in a nutshell is one of the major things wrong with skydiving today. Unless youre jumping some super secret gear that only the CIA jumps your gear is in a standard dual container single harness configuration. Its not special and neither are you. Do you just walk from the hangar to the aircraft without having anyone check you? You have almost a million jumps so youre awesome and perfect right? No need.
Sure there are small variations between different pieces of kit but the misrouting of the chestrap is the same. Twisting your leg straps is the same, etc. You need to be checked.
These are the same threads where peoples heads explode when someone asks about canopy downsizing but we dare not lay a finger on your rig. Taking grips and holding hands during free fall is ok though. You can hold my chest strap or mud flaps on exit, just dont check them on the flight line. Gotcha.

No I disagree, personal responsibility is not one of the major things wrong with the sport today.

Why would I have someone that doesn't even know how to pack their own rig check over mine?

I have established a routine of checking my handles, cables, housings, straps etc. THREE times before I put my rig on.

I KNOW my rig better than anyone else, so why would I have someone start messing with it in a crowded aircraft that may have never seen it before?

Yes I have seen flaps that were put back wrong following a check, I have seen people tell a jumper that their PC wasn't cocked causing all kinds of drama when in fact it was.

Certainly things ARE caught and problems averted during pin checks and that's great.

But don't tell me that my not wanting someone I don't know, dicking with my parachute is a problem for the sport...It's not.

I would encourage anyone that feels the need, to both receive & perform pin-checks...just don't be offended if I pass, and DO NOT do one without being asked.

I try to take a professional & pragmatic approach to my continued survival regarding my involvement in the sport...I try to evaluate the cost/benefit of the things I do, so no I don't do things like let someone hang on my chest strap...it clearly wasn't designed for that.

The personal choices and ultimate responsibilities are a couple of things that are RIGHT with the sport.


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 5:46 AM
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In reply to:
The personal choices and ultimate responsibilities are a couple of things that are RIGHT with the sport.

Its not the fact that you want to maintain and check your own gear (thats great!), its the attitude that you can do it better than others and no one dare come close to your kit. Just a skygod mentality. If thats how you feel more power to you.

However, your last quote sort of alludes to the original post. If someone personally chooses to wear a GO-PRO and takes responsibility for his own demise (or success) whats the big deal? Someone needs 100 jumps to be a coach but that same 100 jump person will be a splat on the ground with their GO-PRO?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 7:43 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The personal choices and ultimate responsibilities are a couple of things that are RIGHT with the sport.

Its not the fact that you want to maintain and check your own gear (that's great!), its the attitude that you can do it better than others and no one dare come close to your kit. Just a skygod mentality. If that's how you feel more power to you.

However, your last quote sort of alludes to the original post. If someone personally chooses to wear a GO-PRO and takes responsibility for his own demise (or success) whats the big deal? Someone needs 100 jumps to be a coach but that same 100 jump person will be a splat on the ground with their GO-PRO?

I agree...I don't tell someone with 100 jumps not to jump a camera. I don't have the qualified experience to make a judgement call on someone else's abilities in that regard.

I use to jump a camera with 100 jumps and back then it was a 'super 8' ...quite a bit different than today's micro units.

However back then it WAS a different time, I had a C license, could pack, spot, do demos, jump-master & instruct S/L students...we learned things in different, maybe less accelerated ways with different goals and approaches.

Not saying better, just very different.

And if you knew me personally, you would understand that I'm about the furthest thing there is from a 'skygod'.

I routinely spent a couple hundred bucks on a weekend jumping with '100 jump wonders', and take pleasure in it.

I jump a lot of solo style and answer the obvious questions for those who have never seen it, or may want to watch me and try.

I've missed loads because of helping A & B jumpers pack their own rigs without asking, expecting or taking $ for doing it...a 'skygod' I'm not. Laugh

BUT...I have seen someone ask for a check in the AC only to have the jumper checking his reserve hand him the lead seal and say 'opps sorry'...I had a guy a few weeks ago that was test jumping a Racer ask me to check his reserve pin on jump-run.

I don't have the time or inclination to 'interview' someone as to their qualifications regarding the appraisal of my parachute once we're in the aircraft...and I've seen enough to be more comfortable with just leaving well enough alone in MY case.

Again, I don't tell people NOT to perform or receive pin checks.


I like the fact that several of the 4 way teams I video go through a practiced routine of checking each others gear, I also like that they understand I have my own routine that I've developed over the past 35 years that allows me to be confident that my gear is safe & functional.

I don't insult someone that may ask me if I want a pin check by saying I don't 'trust' them or don't think they are qualified, or that I'm 'better' than they are in some way...I know better.

I simply say no thanks. Wink

It's a personal thing...when it comes to life saving equipment that I own & maintain, I would rather be the final word on it's airworthiness.


Edited to add:
Back to the topic, as I said, I don't condone or discourage the use of small cameras for jumpers with less than 200 jumps, I do hope they understand and take into consideration the possible problems jumping one may cause & if they ask my opinion I tell them that.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jun 22, 2010, 8:34 AM)


brettski74  (C 3197)

Jun 22, 2010, 7:45 AM
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Re: [virgin-burner] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
how bout those that actually have learned to maintain and check their gear for themselves!?

Here we go again...

You had your rant on this in another thread. This thread is about small form factor cameras, not gear checks or pin checks. Try to stay on topic. If you don't want your gear checked, that's your business, but stop trying to make everyone think they're dumb if they choose to ask for a pin check.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 22, 2010, 8:05 AM
Post #34 of 294 (1345 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

probably better to create a new thread for this one.Wink
My bridle doesn't come over the flaps, it is entirely under the flap.
It reduces the risk of hesitation in low speed deployment, it provides for a smoother opening/clearance in low speed openings.
It's no "easier" or "less easier" to pull open when pulling the pin cover open if the pin cover is opened correctly, but many people seem to think they need to get their fingers under that pin cover when they're opening it, thus catching a bit of the bridle.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 22, 2010, 8:14 AM
Post #35 of 294 (1340 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Unless youre jumping some super secret gear that only the CIA jumps your gear is in a standard
>dual container single harness configuration.

I don't have "super secret" gear. But my second rig is a Reflex and most people don't know how to gear check the reserve pin. Nothing wrong with that, but it does mean that they can't check it and I generally don't ask. (And yes, I have had people try to pry the pop top off.)

>Do you just walk from the hangar to the aircraft without having anyone check you?

Never. Someone always checks. Usually it's me.

>You have almost a million jumps so youre awesome and perfect right?

No more so than you have a million jumps and will awesomely and perfectly check other people's gear every time.


virgin-burner

Jun 22, 2010, 8:52 AM
Post #36 of 294 (1322 views)
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Re: [brettski74] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
how bout those that actually have learned to maintain and check their gear for themselves!?

Here we go again...

You had your rant on this in another thread. This thread is about small form factor cameras, not gear checks or pin checks. Try to stay on topic. If you don't want your gear checked, that's your business, but stop trying to make everyone think they're dumb if they choose to ask for a pin check.

your post is astray as much as mine, but since mine was actually part of the discussion..

oh, and never have i implied you were stupid; if you think you are, i cant change that..


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:17 AM
Post #37 of 294 (1310 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked

I'm not sure that waiting until they bounce is the best way to identify those who may be distracted.


chutem  (A 45827)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:35 AM
Post #38 of 294 (1289 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

I was just talking to an old timer with 2000+ jumps who's been in the sport forever. He told me he tried a gopro for a while just to get some inside video of his own jumps. He found it so distracting that he got rid of it. And yet everyone with 50 jumps doesn't get distracted at all. It's a miracle.

Dave

The youth of today have grown up living their lives with multiple "distractions". I'd go as far as to say that some of them wouldn't know what to do WITHOUT some type of camera on them at all times.

Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked

The youth of today has grown up expecting instant gratification. Working their way up to a certain level prior to getting what they want is something many just don't understand.

James


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 10:22 AM
Post #39 of 294 (1275 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
its the attitude that you can do it better than others and no one dare come close to your kit. Just a skygod mentality

absolute nonsense - he's like me. I check my own gear. I am grateful to anyone asking me if I want a pin check - sometimes I say 'yes', sometimes I say 'no' - I always say 'thank you'.

But please don't touch the gear without asking first - it's just plain courtesy. I always ask them before touching their gear - I expect the same courtesy from them.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 22, 2010, 10:50 AM
Post #40 of 294 (1249 views)
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Re: [chutem] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>The youth of today has grown up expecting instant gratification.

It's not just today; youth has always been like that.

But yes, it's a problem. Most people in the sport for a short time have never seen a fatality or even a serious injury. So for them, anyone who tells them "you shouldn't do that" is a twat who thinks that they're God's gift to skydiving, and only they can do the cool exciting stuff. Why else would they try to stop them?


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 11:03 AM
Post #41 of 294 (1230 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread was about go-pros then devolved into a gear check thread. Unfortunate. I guess its just a different way of operating. At all the places Ive jumped whoever is manifested on the load all gather in a common pre jump area where people declare their jumps, exit order is established and landing patterns are discussed and (gasp!) people check eachothers gear. If you dont get checked by someone else, you dont jump. Im not hear to change the world or the way anyone operates. I was merely stating how it comes off as a bit snooty.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 11:20 AM
Post #42 of 294 (1211 views)
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In reply to:
This thread was about go-pros then devolved into a gear check thread. Unfortunate. I guess its just a different way of operating. At all the places Ive jumped whoever is manifested on the load all gather in a common pre jump area where people declare their jumps, exit order is established and landing patterns are discussed and (gasp!) people check each others gear. If you don't get checked by someone else, you don't jump. Im not hear to change the world or the way anyone operates. I was merely stating how it comes off as a bit snooty.

Perception isn't always reality...If ya have a lotta 'snooty' around you, then ya may see it even where it isn't. Angelic

I jump at a DZ where three turbine aircraft are turning all day long on the weekend, 250 tandems is a common day, and I don't know 1/2 the people on the load.

Maybe if I knew the guy sitting next to me for a few years I wouldn't be so hesitant...but then again, the people I do know well, know not to ask me...and that I'm not being a 'snooty skygod'. SlyWink


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 22, 2010, 11:50 AM
Post #43 of 294 (1196 views)
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Re: [jdfreefly] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Check your shit, check your friends shit and have your friends check your shit or one of you could be in a world of shit.

+1

If you dont want me to check your shit, dont get on the plane anywhere near me. I may not touch it, but I am looking. And If I do touch it, there is a reason. To be honest you can kill yourself if ya want, but your not taking me and everyone else on the plane with you.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 11:57 AM
Post #44 of 294 (1184 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you dont want me to check your shit, dont get on the plane anywhere near me. I may not touch it, but I am looking. And If I do touch it, there is a reason. To be honest you can kill yourself if ya want, but your not taking me and everyone else on the plane with you.

please look all you want, and if you see something weird tell me before you "fix" it. And thank you very much, I'll look out for you too and be grateful every time.

but before you start hauling away at my flaps and stuff, just ask first - I'll also be very grateful.

why is that such a difficult concept? (if I know you are there, I'll hold still, I'll be there to answer any question if you see something, etc etc etc)


And, why do we carefully look at the pin and bridle. Then we close the flaps and SLAP!!! the back of the container. (Crazy)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 22, 2010, 11:59 AM)


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 22, 2010, 11:57 AM
Post #45 of 294 (1181 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The youth of today have grown up living their lives with multiple "distractions". I'd go as far as to say that some of them wouldn't know what to do WITHOUT some type of camera on them at all times.

Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not.

Texting and playing a video game while drinking Mountain Dew and eating a pizza is not the same things as being distracted by a video camera when yours and others lives are on the line.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 22, 2010, 12:04 PM
Post #46 of 294 (1167 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And, why do we carefully look at the pin and bridle. Then we close the flaps and SLAP!!! the back of the container. (Crazy)

Hey its cool as long as they say "Good Game"
Angelic

Matt


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 22, 2010, 12:04 PM
Post #47 of 294 (1167 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
please look all you want, and if you see something weird tell me before you "fix" it.

but before you start hauling away at my flaps and stuff, just ask first

why is that such a difficult concept?

Bill, if you and I were sitting on a plane and I pushed you forward and said...... "Hold up, we have a problem here." Your saying you wouldn't let me fix your gear? Of course I would tell you what the problem was and what I did to fix it.

The problem here is that a lot of people think that they are above having people check their gear. I have had a reserve handle come loose in the plane and had my pin pop after the door was open. I am glad that in both of those situations that the people that saw it didn't spend time worrying if they could touch my gear. I was grabbed on both occasions and jumpers started working on it right away. Obviously I wanted to know what was going on and they told me, but didnt worry that I was going to get mad before they did something.


(This post was edited by dgskydive on Jun 22, 2010, 12:05 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 12:06 PM
Post #48 of 294 (1158 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The problem here is that a lot of people think that they are above having people check their gear. I have had a reserve handle come loose in the plane and had my pin pop after the door was open. I am glad that in both of those situations that the people that saw it didn't spend time worrying if they could touch my gear. I was grabbed on both occasions and jumpers started working on it right away. Obviously I wanted to know what was going on and they told me, but didnt worry that I was going to get mad before they did something.

I would hope that people would feel differently about the "door's open and the shit's hitting the fan" situations like you just described and the "I'm sitting behind you on the ride to altitude and notice something well before jump run" situations. If your PC is at risk of going out an open door, it's time for action not a polite "Uh, hey, Dom, you might want to check your reserve pin." LaughLaughUnimpressed


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jun 22, 2010, 12:07 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 22, 2010, 12:07 PM
Post #49 of 294 (1155 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>if you and I were sitting on a plane and I pushed you forward and
>said...... "Hold up, we have a problem here."

If you did it while I was doing the final talkthrough with a student, or your pushing me knocked my camera into the O2 manifold - I'd be pretty annoyed. If you just said "hey, riser cover's open" then that would be both helpful and welcomed.


The111  (D 29246)

Jun 22, 2010, 12:53 PM
Post #50 of 294 (1117 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And, why do we carefully look at the pin and bridle. Then we close the flaps and SLAP!!! the back of the container. (Crazy)

Agreed... even though realistically I don't think slapping the container will harm anything, I always slap on the shoulder myself. It is also something you can actually feel (since you have nerves in your shoulder but not on your container).


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 12:56 PM
Post #51 of 294 (1172 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bill, if you and I were sitting on a plane and I pushed you forward and said...... "Hold up, we have a problem here." Your saying you wouldn't let me fix your gear? Of course I would tell you what the problem was and what I did to fix it.

you spoke up and didn't just start clawing at me - you also noted you'd tell me what you saw and what you did - that's also not the scenario I'm opposed to

But seriously, what's wrong with changing the order?

1 - "Hey Bill - something looks weird with your gear. Mind if I take a look?"
2 - "What do you see?"
3 - explain
4 - "thanks a lot, go ahead" or "that's normal for this rig, I appreciate you looking" or "thanks a ton, I'll have my teammate take a look"

Would you be upset at the above?



If some stranger pushed me forward and starting pushing and pulling at stuff without saying a word - I'd be very upset and most likely have to have someone I trust now take a second look incase the first guy just tried to kill me for all the right reasons.


Example? - my preference is curved main pin points up and I pack that way. I saw one guy with the opposite viewpoint (pin points down) take a perfectly good pack and try to twist the pin from up to down on a rig in front of him where he was doing an unsolicited pin check. He nearly pulled the pin out. By the time he was stopped, the bridle was partly loose, the pin looked loose, the hacky was hanging out, etc.

I'm not really ready for someone (well meaning in their mind) to do something stupid to my gear.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 22, 2010, 1:03 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 12:59 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

exception?

the door is open and my pilot chute is lying on the ground -

this type of issue is best acted upon WHILE informing everybody verbally

and THANK you very much for grabbing my pilot chute/loose bag/pin fallout/undone chest strap/incorrectly routed 3-ring/etc/etc/etc


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:02 PM
Post #53 of 294 (1163 views)
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In reply to:
If some stranger pushed me forward and starting pushing and pulling at stuff without saying a word - I'd be very upset and most likely have to have someone I trust now take a second look incase the first guy just tried to kill me for all the right reasons.

Nothing wrong with that. Completely acceptable to think that way.

Again, my point is that some think they are above having their gear checked period. I bet you are a guy that has his gear checked by a teammate anyway.


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:06 PM
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In reply to:
If you did it while I was doing the final talkthrough with a student, or your pushing me knocked my camera into the O2 manifold - I'd be pretty annoyed.

Bill you have been on many plane rides with me. Have you ever seen me to anything even close to that?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:07 PM
Post #55 of 294 (1151 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

another? I have a freefly pud because I don't like that flapping hacky back there.

When I jump my wife's rig (hacky) I take that hacky and PC and push it all the way in and then pull the hacky out such that it's up tight against the pouch lip.

I had someone pull the hacky out so it was loose and floppy (like 'they' prefer) and not tell me (a teammate pointed it out and we had to fix it). They meant well, but that's just pissing with the gear to satisfy their toilet training. I really didn't need a floating hacky - not a safety issue, but why touch it in the first place. It would have been really simple to just tap my shoulder and say, "Hey, your hacky is pretty tight - I'm worried it'll slip into your pouch" then I could feel the hacky, let him know it's how I like it, and then THANK him for being a decent and watchful friend.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:08 PM
Post #56 of 294 (1149 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, my point is that some think they are above having their gear checked period. I bet you are a guy that has his gear checked by a teammate anyway.

no, usually I check it myself a few times on the ride up - I've seen too many stupid things

I'm not opposed to gear checks
I'm opposed to someone doing it without my permission or knowledge


if I ever own a go-pro, you have my permission to mess with it on jump run.....Laugh


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 22, 2010, 1:10 PM)


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:14 PM
Post #57 of 294 (1141 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess we wont be talking about go pros in this thread then.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:23 PM
Post #58 of 294 (1130 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I guess we wont be talking about go pros in this thread then.

God I hope not...those things will KILL ya! Angelic


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 22, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #59 of 294 (1115 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Bill you have been on many plane rides with me. Have you ever seen me
>to anything even close to that?

No, nor have you ever pushed me to get at my rig. (And if you did see something wrong I'd have no problem with you trying to fix it; just let me know beforehand.)


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 22, 2010, 1:50 PM
Post #60 of 294 (1114 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're just being a snooty sky god.

Edit to add something useful:

I think much of what people are saying here wrt gear checks is just common sense. You don't go start mucking with people's gear without asking them first, and you don't change something on their gear without asking them first.

The only time I have ever manhandled someone was when they were walking back from the open door of a half empty otter and their pilot chute had stayed behind snagged on a cable used to hold up the seats. Every other time it's a gentle tap on the shoulder and then telling them what I see and asking if they want me to help fix it. I will usually follow that up with asking if they would like a full gear check because if I've seen one thing for concern who knows what else may be lurking.

I try to respect the wishes of those who don't want gear checks, but I do think it sets a better example for newer jumpers to set the expectation that they should be comfortable receiving and giving a gear check and also how to do it properly.


(This post was edited by jdfreefly on Jun 22, 2010, 1:56 PM)


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 2:38 PM
Post #61 of 294 (1084 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I guess we wont be talking about go pros in this thread then.

God I hope not...those things will KILL ya! Angelic

...not to mention the video quality sucks! Ive seen better resolution on a VHS! Cool


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:34 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked

I'm not sure that waiting until they bounce is the best way to identify those who may be distracted.

So do you believe that 200 is the magic number to no longer being distracted?????

Do you think we should implement a camera cert course? Maybe 7 camera jumps with an instructor to get signed off??


I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less focused and has 500, 1000, 2000, jumps etc....

I don't think the 200 jump requirement should be lowered... I just think that wearing a camera may be a big distraction for some and not a distraction at all for others.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:40 PM
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In reply to:
Texting and playing a video game while drinking Mountain Dew and eating a pizza is not the same things as being distracted by a video camera when yours and others lives are on the line.

They sure as shit do plenty of texting and driving which is more distracting and dangerous than a helmet GoPro during a dive.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 22, 2010, 9:44 PM
Post #64 of 294 (1026 views)
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In reply to:
...not to mention the video quality sucks! Ive seen better resolution on a VHS! Cool

Where you been???? They have this thing called HD now, you should check it out. Cool


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 12:39 AM
Post #65 of 294 (1003 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked

I'm not sure that waiting until they bounce is the best way to identify those who may be distracted.

So do you believe that 200 is the magic number to no longer being distracted?????

Do you think we should implement a camera cert course? Maybe 7 camera jumps with an instructor to get signed off??


I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less focused and has 500, 1000, 2000, jumps etc....

I don't think the 200 jump requirement should be lowered... I just think that wearing a camera may be a big distraction for some and not a distraction at all for others.

If you can be a coach at 100 then you should be able to fly a go pro. Or raise the coach limit to 200. Its almost like the 18 to vote and serve in the military but you cant drink until 21 argument.

Also I think there is a difference between having a "proper" camera on the side of your head and a stills on the top and all the crazy bite switches and cutaway chin cups that go with it and then a go pro. Most people with a go pro arent videographers. They just want to see what ends up on the camera and put it on youtube. Im probably in the minority but I have no problem with small cameras at less than 200.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jun 23, 2010, 5:06 AM
Post #66 of 294 (962 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... Im probably in the minority but I have no problem with small cameras at less than 200.

Yes you are in the minority. The issue is not the amount or complexity of the camera gear. The issue is: Camera vs. No Camera. A camera, regardless of complexity, introduces distraction that a low-time jumper may have trouble with. Certainly, more complexity may mean more distraction, but the very existence of a camera of any kind can cause enough distraction in some people to compromise their safety. Is this always directly related to total experience level? Most evidence says it is. Can some people become too distracted no matter what their experience level? Yes. Practicality dictates that jump numbers is a good way to "generalize" the requirements, without constructing a complex evaluation protocol.


jumpwally  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:28 AM
Post #67 of 294 (927 views)
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............and a snag hazard is a snag hazard....Done


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:41 AM
Post #68 of 294 (918 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Some people may be distracted by a camera and others may not. Shocked

I'm not sure that waiting until they bounce is the best way to identify those who may be distracted.

So do you believe that 200 is the magic number to no longer being distracted?????

Do you think we should implement a camera cert course? Maybe 7 camera jumps with an instructor to get signed off??


I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less focused and has 500, 1000, 2000, jumps etc....

I don't think the 200 jump requirement should be lowered... I just think that wearing a camera may be a big distraction for some and not a distraction at all for others.

nice post.

This is why 200 jumps is a minimum. We are not saying that everyone will be ready at 200 jumps. Some should wait longer. Yes some may be ready sooner but I agree that we should not lower the minimum, lowering the minimum to fit the very very few is just silly in my opinion.

I have been approached by many who want to fly camera early, as well as approaching others with a camera already mounted. I do not argue that they are above average or have mad skills, I simply state that the 200 jump minimum is for them. Then I go to explain that many skydivers should wait for 300, 500, or even never to put a camera on. Once you put it in perspective for them, that you agree they may be ready for a camera when they only have the bare minimum of jumps required (200), most leave with a new confidience that no one is holding them back and begin to look forward to the expereince to come.

I wish it was that easy on the net.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:42 AM
Post #69 of 294 (916 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you can be a coach at 100 then you should be able to fly a go pro. Or raise the coach limit to 200.

I agree, raise the coach limit - if we don't think someone can check themselves with a camera, what business do they have also being 'partially' responsible for another.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 23, 2010, 10:24 AM
Post #70 of 294 (858 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>So do you believe that 200 is the magic number to no longer being distracted?

No magic there. There's no magic numbers anywhere in skydiving, just numbers that seem to work pretty well.

>I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of
>multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be
>as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less
>focused . . ..

What's magic about 100? If they are that capable, why not at AFF graduation?

The basic problem here is that EVERYONE THINKS THEY ARE MORE CAPABLE. That's why I try to make it clear that only the more-capable people should do camera at all, and those should wait until 200 jumps before they try it.

DSE has a long list of people who have had problems being dangerously distracted by a camera, including a recent one who just hit the 200 jump mark, jumped a camera, and almost broke themselves very badly. It's happened to me as well. All those people thought they were more capable. And they probably were - but you need the ability to focus, the ability to ignore distractions, the ability to multi-task, the ability to fly without thinking about it AND the experience to safely jump a camera.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 23, 2010, 10:39 AM
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I think we've seen plenty of examples to say you are just plain wrong.

We already had some jackass on these forums jumping a gopro with under 200 jumps bragging about how he had the presence of mind to muck with his camera helmet in the middle of dealing with a malfunction...the best part was that in the end he still didn't think it was a big deal.

In the last year I've seen people with under 500 jumps jumping gopros go low and have a cypress fire, missroute a chest strap and viciously take someone out on a freefly jump.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 23, 2010, 11:11 AM
Post #72 of 294 (843 views)
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Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just gotta share this PM from last week. I won't identify the poster/PM, but check this out...Crazy

Quote:
I see that to fly with a camera at 200 jumps is a recommendation, not a BSR. USPA members pledge to enforce BSR's according to the USPA web site.

If at a DZ and they prohibit someone from camera flying according to the recommendation, does the jumper have any recourse against the DZ as a licensed jumper and USPA member (who paid their dues for some type of representation)?

I think many jumpers forget that many skydivers in the sport can only jump a few times/month and 200 jumps will take several years (eg, this is not our livelihood just an enjoyable activity/pursuit).


Between some incidents I already knew about, and three more sent to me in PM, we're now up to 14 incidents/issues/oopsies with small format cameras (since January, 2010) ranging from not remembering to wear goggles on a jump to broken bones. If we count three that I was aware of from 2010...that's a fair number that we KNOW about. I'm willing to bet there are 3 more for every one we know of.
There is one fatality that has a loose relationship to a small format camera and very low jump numbers, but I'm not wanting to say the camera played a role in the death, just the attitude that the jumper had about cameras, low experience, and "skillz."

I've gotta say I'm a little stunned that someone would actually ask the question "do I have any recourse against a DZ if they won't let me jump a camera til I have 200 jumps." Especially someone who understands they're not very current. Unsure

Lemme see if I understand this right; We don't want people suing a DZ in the event of an incident, but there are skydivers thatwould like recourse if a DZ wants skydivers to adhere to the USPA recommendations?


(This post was edited by DSE on Jun 23, 2010, 11:12 AM)


beowulf  (C License)

Jun 23, 2010, 11:29 AM
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I would say that person does not fully understand just how easy it is to be seriously injured or killed while skydiving. It doesn't take much of a distraction to find yourself in bad situation. Even highly experienced and current skydivers can be distracted, but often they have the skills and the focus to deal with a less then ideal situation. The best option is not to allow yourself to be put into a bad situation, but it doesn't always work out that way.


Hellis

Jun 23, 2010, 11:39 AM
Post #74 of 294 (813 views)
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I dont understand why "everyone" seems to think its such a problem with having a 200 jump recomendation.

Yes some people can handle the distraction and all that, but then there are thosewho get distracted by breathing.
Seriously would you want some yahoo whos done 10 jumps on your load with camera on his head when you see him on the ground holdig his breath when hes tying his shoes because he cant focus on two things at the same time?

If you have a 200 jump limit this guy will notice hes in the wrong sport well before he reaches 200 jumps or *natural selection* will take care of him when hes struggeling with his knot.

As in the pm DSE posted, there might be some people that ARE capable with camera sub 200 that will get "punnished" by this, but why not let the S&TA determin if they find such a star?

I was offerd to jump with camera sub 200 but i said no, because i still felt i learnd to much during the jumps.
I still learn during my jumps but i feel alot more confident with all the "what ifs" than i did at 100 jumps.


demoknite  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 11:42 AM
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In reply to:
In the last year I've seen people with under 500 jumps jumping gopros go low and have a cypress fire, missroute a chest strap and viciously take someone out on a freefly jump.

Just to play devils advocate since this is the internet and nothing will ever come of it...

Have you not seen this on people with over 500 jumps? Camera or not? DZ.com always needs something to bitch about it seems. It used to be low turns, then it was downsizing, now its go pros. First it they were bitching about the quality, now its those wanting to jump it.

I predict that they will be allowed to be jumped at around 100 jumps or coaching will be raised to 200.

Its funny how technology sort of creates discussions. Not very many years ago someone with 200 jumps would have been well respected and thought to have done a lot of jumps. With innovations in aircraft and parachute technology someone with 200 jumps still gets chump attached after it. I think we are due for a re-evaluation of what can be done at what number of jumps, and not just in relation to go pros.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 23, 2010, 12:16 PM
Post #76 of 294 (1514 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Have you not seen this on people with over 500 jumps?

Of course. 200 jumps is a minimum, not a "you are perfectly safe after this number of jumps" thing.

> Not very many years ago someone with 200 jumps would have been
>well respected and thought to have done a lot of jumps.

And someone with 500 Paracommander jumps would have been considered a canopy flight expert. Doesn't mean they're ready to jump a Xaos.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 12:36 PM
Post #77 of 294 (1503 views)
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In reply to:
I think we've seen plenty of examples to say you are just plain wrong.

Exactly what part of my statement (below) do you feel is wrong????

"I am a firm believer that some people are simply more capable of multi-tasking or staying focused in general. I think these people will be as competent wearing a camera at 100 jumps as someone who is less focused and has 500, 1000, 2000, jumps etc....

I don't think the 200 jump requirement should be lowered... I just think that wearing a camera may be a big distraction for some and not a distraction at all for others. "


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 23, 2010, 1:02 PM
Post #78 of 294 (1483 views)
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The "not a distraction at all for others" part.

Not necessarily directed at the OP:
If you've got low jump numbers and think that you are somehow a more exceptional skydiver than all those that went before you to write these rules in blood you are just asking to write your own little bloody footnote on why these recommendations should be followed.

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are just like every other skydiver that came before you who was wholly convinced in their own mind that the rules should not apply to them. The chances are good that you will get lucky and get through the next 500 jumps without hurting yourself or others but that still won't mean you were right.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 23, 2010, 1:24 PM
Post #79 of 294 (1470 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In the last year I've seen people with under 500 jumps jumping gopros go low and have a cypress fire, missroute a chest strap and viciously take someone out on a freefly jump.

Just to play devils advocate since this is the internet and nothing will ever come of it...

Have you not seen this on people with over 500 jumps? Camera or not? DZ.com always needs something to bitch about it seems. It used to be low turns, then it was downsizing, now its go pros. First it they were bitching about the quality, now its those wanting to jump it.

I predict that they will be allowed to be jumped at around 100 jumps or coaching will be raised to 200.

Its funny how technology sort of creates discussions. Not very many years ago someone with 200 jumps would have been well respected and thought to have done a lot of jumps. With innovations in aircraft and parachute technology someone with 200 jumps still gets chump attached after it. I think we are due for a re-evaluation of what can be done at what number of jumps, and not just in relation to go pros.

No one is saying that someone with 200 jumps is a chump. The recommendations haven't changed, the only thing that has changed is that turbines have changed the amount of time required to hit 200 jumps. This also translates to less time on ground having discussions with others, less time seeing "oops" moments from others. A coached skydive carries some very minimal responsibilities and some very specific tasks with only one other person in the air. A camera adds a lot to that same jump with a lot more unpredictability.

It's backward that many folks believe the challenges of camera flying are mostly resolved by the size of the camera vs how the camera causes people to fly differently than they would without one.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 1:34 PM
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I just don't understand why it's so hard for some to take the advise of those more experienced in such matters. Crazy

I knew a handful of 'trend setting rule scoffers' back in the day...2 settled down and still jump, 2 quit jumping, 4 are dead from fuckin' around doing stupid stuff.

I was no angel by any stretch, but watching some close friends go in, tempered my attitude with a painful jolt of reality.

That's a hard way to learn a simple lesson.


I don't know if the 200 jump recommendation is a good thing or not, I'm not involved in the training/learning progression thing anymore so I don't have a reference to what, when & how people should move forward...but the folks that ARE into that part of the sport, seem to agree it's an appropriate line so I have to concur. . .Yeah - taking the advise of people that KNOW. Wink


runnit  (E 2266)

Jun 23, 2010, 2:03 PM
Post #81 of 294 (1445 views)
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In reply to:
... A camera adds a lot to that same jump with a lot more unpredictability...

... how the camera causes people to fly differently than they would without one.

These 2 points hit the nail on the head for me. After how ever many hundred skydives flying outside video and stills, there are still base jumps where I will flat out not run my gopro just because it's an add on that I really don't want/need to deal with at the time.

And despite any best intentions, if I've got a camera on my head there's always that subconscious thought that "if I just do this during the jump, the footage will look farkin cool." I've found it's almost an automatic reflex and I'm doing it before I've realised (base and skydive).

200 jumps may or may not be the magic number for someone being (un)experienced, but it at least gives a reference point to separate the people who'll charge in blindly from the people who'll take the time to stop and think about why that criteria's there in the 1st place.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 6:09 PM
Post #82 of 294 (1401 views)
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Quote:
Not very many years ago someone with 200 jumps would have been well respected and thought to have done a lot of jumps. With innovations in aircraft and parachute technology someone with 200 jumps still gets chump attached after it. I think we are due for a re-evaluation of what can be done at what number of jumps, and not just in relation to go pros.

Well then, let's remember that not many years ago, there was no such thing as digital video. The smallest video cameras available were Hi-8, and those weighed several pounds, and were too large to side mount. A full face camera helmet you had to clamp onto your head was the only option. As such, shooting video was much less attractive to just about everyone, the few who stepped up to the plate needed help in just getting the camera helmet together. No jump minnimum was needed because the gear created the 'filter'.

Now you can order a tapeless, light weight, HD camera for a couple hundered bucks, and it even comes with the hardware to mount it to any helmet you can think of.

Not too many years ago, a 135 was considered a hot-rod canopy, and you had to sign a waiver to purchase a 107 or 97 sq ft canopy. Swooping wasn't even a word used in relation to canopies, it was all hook turns and turf surfs. Nobody worried about downsizing, or swooping too soon because it wasn't a problem.

Now you can order a 79 sq ft canopy from the factory with no questions asked, and it's common to see jumpers making multiple revolution turns resulting swoops fast enough to fire a Cypres.

You're right, we do need to re-evalute who should be doing what and when, but not the direction you're thinking.

In terms of your continued comparison to the coach rating, let's keep in mind the real purpose of a coach. They are intended only as a 'jump buddy' to the un-licensed jumper. They are there to dirt dive, make the jump, and debrief. The un-licensed jumper is cleared to, and expected to self-jumpmaster. The coach has no responsibility for the un-licensed jumper from gear selection, to gear up, to gear checks, to exit order, to spotting, to stability in freefall, to offering hand signals, to break-off, or pull time, or flying the landing pattern, or landing. Their job is to be a jump buddy, reference in the sky, and a person to talk to afterwards.

Don't associate being able to do a simple two way with a prewritten dive flow to jumping a camera, they are two different things.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:03 PM
Post #83 of 294 (1392 views)
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Quote:
The coach has no responsibility for the un-licensed jumper from gear selection, to gear up, to gear checks, to exit order, to spotting, to stability in freefall, to offering hand signals, to break-off, or pull time, or flying the landing pattern, or landing. Their job is to be a jump buddy, reference in the sky, and a person to talk to afterwards.

Is that the minimum or is that reality? In my experience, coaches do gear up students, train them for their jumps, perform 3 gear checks for every jump, choose exit order, help teach spotting and ensure the student's spot is safe, offer hand signals, signal breakoff if needed, and talk students in on radio. While coach jumps are conducted under the supervision of an instructor, coaches have huge responsibility. Both in terms of keeping students safe and teaching them effectively so the students get their money's worth.

I'd rather see someone with 100 jumps put on a huge camera with a VCR strapped to their chest than perform a half-assed coach jump.

Dave


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:21 PM
Post #84 of 294 (1386 views)
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Quote:
Is that the minimum or is that reality?

That's their function, they literally are a glorified jump buddy. Fast forward 10 jumps, and now you have a A license jumper with 28 jumps. If you, or anyone with 100+ jumps were to do a two-way with them, how would it differ that much from a coach jump? Wouldn't you dirt dive with them, and offer pointers in possible problem areas? How about give their rig a once over before walking to the plane?

These are all things people do as a matter of regular business, but none of them are required. The un-licensed jumper has been cleared to self-jumpmaster, and should be expected to do so. If the coach going with them wants to double check that they are performing that task correctly, then so be it. However, the coach is expected only to fly their slot, and break off at the correct time.

They are not there to signal a break off, they are expected to break off at the proper time just as in a 'real' skydive. They are not expected to pull for the other jumper, or intervene if that jumper has stability problems. That is not their job, and they have not been trained for that.

It's a simple proposition - participate in a two-way with an unlicensed jumper. You will take the lead in the some areas because you are the senior jumper, but that is no different than any other jump.

Yes, some jumpers make more of it than that, and in some cases that's good, and in others, not so much, but in the end being a 'coach' requires a very simple skill set, that of doing a two-way with a newbie, and should not be compared to flying a camera, which we have seen proven to be harder than it looks.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:48 PM
Post #85 of 294 (1376 views)
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In reply to:
The "not a distraction at all for others" part.

Not necessarily directed at the OP:
If you've got low jump numbers and think that you are somehow a more exceptional skydiver than all those that went before you to write these rules in blood you are just asking to write your own little bloody footnote on why these recommendations should be followed.

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are just like every other skydiver that came before you who was wholly convinced in their own mind that the rules should not apply to them. The chances are good that you will get lucky and get through the next 500 jumps without hurting yourself or others but that still won't mean you were right.

You can teach a monkey to skydive. You can even teach a monkey to skydive while wearing a helmet with a GoPro on it. And anyone, even a beautiful and unique snowflake can get lucky, maybe even lucky enough to get 2400 jumps. Right or wrong both the monkey and the snowflake are entitled to their opinions.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:52 PM
Post #86 of 294 (1372 views)
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I completely disagree about the function of a coach. Coaches teach. They teach parts of first jump courses and categories E-H. They also decide if the student met the criteria of the jump and can move to the next jump/category. Coaches don't normally break off... thats the student's job. The coach just watches. ISP Category G:

Quote:
5. Break-off

a. Check altitude every four or five seconds and after each maneuver.

b. Break off without prompting.

c. Plan the break-off altitude to allow enough time to track 50 feet.

d. The most positive way to signal break-off is to turn and track.

(1) As a safety back-up in Categories G and H—

(i) If the coach waves his or her arms, immediately turn and track to the planned deployment altitude.

(ii) If the coach deploys, deploy immediately without tracking.

(iii) Deploy at planned altitude whether or not you have turned or tracked.

(iv) Never rely on the USPA Coach for breakoff or deployment cues.

(2) You are always responsible to break off and open at the planned altitude on jumps with the USPA Coach and with others after you get your license.

The coach is a safety backup. You could argue that the coach isn't responsible, since it says right there not to rely on the coach. But that's like saying an AFF instructor isn't responsible for pulling a student because students are trained to pull for themselves. Coaches are just kind of allowed to suck.

D-licensed jumpers are allowed to jump with students, but not allowed to perform the functions of a coach. Coaches are more than jump buddies. Ok, you did say glorified.

I think the coach program is poorly implemented at a lot of dropzones. Maybe that's how you came to your opinion on it. But under the ISP, coaches take on a lot of responsibility and perform a valuable service to students... when implemented properly.

Dave


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 7:53 PM
Post #87 of 294 (1370 views)
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Quote:
Right or wrong both the monkey and the snowflake are entitled to their opinions.

Indeed, but the opinion is about the skill level or ability of a jumper with 200 jumps, and the snowflake hasn't even reached that point while the monkey has 10 times that number of jumps, it might be time to listen to the monkey.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:10 PM
Post #88 of 294 (1360 views)
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Quote:
I think the coach program is poorly implemented at a lot of dropzones. Maybe that's how you came to your opinion on it. But under the ISP, coaches take on a lot of responsibility and perform a valuable service to students... when implemented properly.

The coach program at my DZ is way above minimums. They go above and beyond in every way possible, but that's not the point. The point is that the skills required are no different than any other 100+ jump jumper doing a two way with a newbie (this is leaving out the coaches privledges regarding the FJC and such, I'm limiting it to the coach jumps for the purpose of this discussion).

It's just like flying a camera. You can exit RW stable, close in on your subject, and maintain safe proximity until break off or pull time, depending on what you're filming. That's all that's required.

Lot's of guys will freefly the exit, jockey around to get the 'good' light, make sure key parts of the skydive or action are highlighted, look around for 'the shot', and interact with the student if appropriate. Those guys are going above and beyond, but that is not required, and in a discussion of who can get the 'job' done, a guy who can achieve the minimum requirements could be called 'qualified'.

So when that poster continued to harp on the fact that you can be a 'coach' with 100 jumps, but not jump a camera until you have 200 jumps, and how that was some sort of injustice, I spoke up. The minimum requirements for performing a coach jump are much simpler than that of a camera jump. It's a basic two-way with a newbie, and the dive flow is predetermined. If you cannot perform that jump with 100+ jumps to your name, you have severely mis-managed your jumps to date, and missed out on some very basic training.

To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.


skypuppy  (D 347)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:29 PM
Post #89 of 294 (1348 views)
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Re: [The111] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think it's funny that everyone is so afraid of getting their gear touched by anyone else. We all trust each other to know their gear is safe, but if they touch our own, it's the end of the world. What exactly do you think someone might do back there?

Exactly. To those who don't like others touching your gear, I challenge you to find ONE documented example where a skydiver was injured/killed because he let another skydiver touch his rig on the plane.
________________________________________________

It's none of your business who I want or don't want touching my gear in the plane, so don't tell me to look for examples. I've possibly been doing this longer than you've been alive, I'm a rigger and a senior instructor. I don't have to justify my beliefs to you.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:34 PM
Post #90 of 294 (1347 views)
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In reply to:
.... To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.

I can share with you a photograph of a student that was being filmed by a newly minted coach. The coach added a camera. They both went low. The student had 2 out.
The newly minted coach is now a very good instructor and will be one of the first to admit they screwed up by wearing the camera (was around the 10th skydive with a camera).
That coach is a fairly regular poster. Maybe they'll have something to add to this convo.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 8:46 PM
Post #91 of 294 (1337 views)
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In reply to:
To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.

I'm just curious... which do you think most distracts a jumper from their own personal awareness?

1. Jumping out with another person who you intend to coach; matching their fall rate, paying attention to their form, watching their maneuvers, watching their track at break-off.

or

2. Jumping with a GoPro on your helmet?


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 23, 2010, 8:49 PM)


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:00 PM
Post #92 of 294 (1330 views)
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Re: [davelepka & pilotdave] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I surely don’t know it all and I still learn from this site, and other sources, every day. I do however have over 1000 paid video jumps, 700 AFF jumps, and 400 coach jumps, hold a coach examiner’s rating, and supervise a fairly large coach staff at a turbine DZ. I think I am qualified to say that Dave is correct in the notion that we cannot compare jumping a camera with having a coach rating.

The biggest difference being the training that is received for the bottom of the skydive. Coaches are trained that when things do not go as expected they are to 1) achieve adequate separation 2) pull no lower than 3500’. New and upcoming camera fliers on the other hand are trained to……… well they are not trained at all and all too often when things don’t go as planned, the camera flier’s first instinct is to get it on film. Compare the two and it does not take much deduction to see who is in danger.




The rest of this post may be considered thread drift, so if you wish feel free to not read it, but I thought it important.

> I'd rather see someone with 100 jumps put on a huge camera with a
>VCR strapped to their chest than perform a half-assed coach jump

I do see your point. However: A student jumping with a coach has been cleared for self supervision by an instructor and ‘should’ be safe regardless of the coach. A coach doing half-assed coach jumps WILL be corrected by the supervising Instructor if said instructor is doing his job, it is just a matter of time. Someone doing half-assed video jumps is not safe, regardless of anyone. These half-assed jumps WILL be corrected by ……. S&TA, other jumpers, DZO, or the EARTH, or some combination thereof, it is just a matter of time.


>The coach has no responsibility for the un-licensed jumper from gear selection, to gear up,
>to gear checks, to exit order, to spotting, ………….., to offering hand signals, to
>break-off, or pull time, or flying the landing pattern, or landing. Their job is to be a jump
>buddy, reference in the sky, and a person to talk to afterwards.

A self supervised student is cleared as such only in freefall, most of the above items or not in free fall and are still fall directly under the responsibility of an Instructor. However, a coach is also responsible for all these things and is required to prove such responsibility to obtain a coach rating. Some more than others, even down to pull time even if the coach’s only real responsibility is to pull on time and therefore give the student a hint, it is still a responsibility.


>The coach has no responsibility for the un-licensed jumper from ………………,
>to stability in freefall, ……….

100% correct


>In my experience, coaches do gear up students, train them for their jumps, perform 3
>gear checks for every jump, choose exit order, help teach spotting and ensure the
>student's spot is safe, offer hand signals, signal break off if needed

Good, they should be


>In my experience, coaches …………….. talk students in on radio

For a student still having a little pattern trouble, I would be happy with any of the coaches under my supervision to talk to them on radio. However doing so, via radio or other means, is a requirement to get an AFF rating, it is not so for a coach rating.


>If the coach going with them wants to double check that they are performing that task
>correctly, then so be it. However, the coach is expected only to fly their slot, and break off
>at the correct time

Actually, a coach is REQUIRED to do all these things, including three gear checks, spotting, exit order and giving a break off signal as a means of teaching. Then if things are still going well, the coach is required to break off, gain separation, and pull. Any coach caught neglecting any of these things repetitively will not be coaching under my supervision for long.


>That's their function, they [coaches] literally are a glorified jump buddy.

I couldn’t agree more, I just don’t think you give the credit deserved for this glorification.


> I think the coach program is poorly implemented at a lot of dropzones

I could not agree more, and more in regards to training, and supervision than to the actual coaches.


>The coach program at my DZ is way above minimums……………. Lot's of guys will freefly the
>exit, jockey around to get the 'good' light, make sure key parts of the skydive or action
>are highlighted, look around for 'the shot', and interact with the student if appropriate.
>Those guys are going above and beyond, but that is not required, and in a discussion of
>who can get the 'job' done, a guy who can achieve the minimum requirements could be
>called 'qualified'

I hope I am reading this wrong and this is not what you refer to as an above minimum coach jump.


Now that the C/E in me is done ranting, both the 100 jump requirement for a coach rating and the 200 jump requirement (as it is at my DZ) for camera, are both minimums. They are both directed to the jumper with above average skills and most jumpers should wait longer. I think both numbers are a fairly accurate well balanced minimum. I would much rather see someone with 100 jumps performing a coach jump under proper supervision than that same person strapping on a camera. That is just my experience.


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:00 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.

I'm just curious... which do you think most distracts a jumper from their own personal awareness?

1. Jumping out with another person who you intend to coach; matching their fall rate, paying attention to their form, watching their maneuvers, watching their track at break-off.

or

2. Jumping with a GoPro on your helmet?

To turn the question on it's head - How long did it take you to be able to fly a slot, take grips and adjust to changing condition in the formation, by reflex? Do we not match fall rates and watch/make maneuvers on every non-solo jump?

Now add making sure that the shot is framed correctly, the light is right, the background is right, etc etc and sticking a camera on your head doesn't sound quite so easy anymore, does it?

I'm obviously not a camera flyer, but I am an amateur photographer - those thoughts *DO* go through your mind when you have a camera in your hand.


(This post was edited by mnealtx on Jun 23, 2010, 9:03 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:13 PM
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Quote:
The coach program at my DZ is way above minimums……………. Lot's of guys will freefly the
>exit, jockey around to get the 'good' light, make sure key parts of the skydive or action
>are highlighted, look around for 'the shot', and interact with the student if appropriate.
>Those guys are going above and beyond, but that is not required, and in a discussion of
>who can get the 'job' done, a guy who can achieve the minimum requirements could be
>called 'qualified'

I hope I am reading this wrong and this is not what you refer to as an above minimum coach jump.

Yes, you read that wrong.

For the sake of my argument, I was offering examples of the 'bare minimum' required for a paid video jump, and the 'above and beyond' some camera flyers choose to apply.

That description is of an 'above and beyond' type effort on a video jump.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:27 PM
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In reply to:
Now add making sure that the shot is framed correctly, the light is right, the background is right, etc etc and sticking a camera on your head doesn't sound quite so easy anymore, does it?

There in lies the problem with this argument... I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit. I think their mainly thinking the same thing as every other jump, lets try to get a good exit, stay together, get a dock, etc... but maybe that's just me.

In fact... I think that more often than not the person without the camera is probably more distracted than the person with the camera, thinking 'I want to get in that shot'. Maybe we should require people to have 200 jumps just to jump with other people that are wearing cameras.


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 23, 2010, 9:32 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
I'm just curious... which do you think most distracts a jumper from their own personal awareness?

1. Jumping out with another person who you intend to coach; matching their fall rate, paying attention to their form, watching their maneuvers, watching their track at break-off.

or

2. Jumping with a GoPro on your helmet?

I vote for the GoPro.

Doing an RW two way jump is a basic skill that, thanks to the coach jump requirements, every A licensed skydiver has experience with. There's is a VERY good chance that beyond their own coach jumps, most jumpers go on to participate in various RW jumps of one size or another, so the concept is not foriegn to them. Even a die hard freeflyer who seeks a coach rating will knock out a few practice RW jumps leading up to the coach course. By the time you have earned a coach rating, a basic RW two-way jump is well within your skill set.

All of the activities you named directly involve both parties, and both have reviewed the dive flow, and completed the dirt dives to their own satisfaction. They are both paying attention to each other, and both on the same page.

Take the guy with the GoPro. What's the plan? Fly outside video? OK, during the entire skydive, that jumper is ignored and left to his own 100 jump devices. He is doing a 'job', and that job is Camera Flyer (intentionally capitalized). Nobody is paying attention to him, and he is paying very close attention to his 'job', not his 'jump'.

OK, forget outside video. Maybe he just wants to film from inside. Great. Now he is part of the jump, but he also has his own little jump going in his head. He's front floater on the exit, but this time he's going to look back up at the plane on exit, not toward the center of the formation, you know, to get the shot. Or maybe he's a diver and he figures he can just hang above the formation until everyone else is in, and then he'll just 'grab his slot real quick', you know, to get some footage (everyone has a Youtube video in their head they would love to make a reality).

Then comes break off, where in either case the new guy is likely to do just about anything you could imagine, you know, to get the shot.

See? The coach jump is structred and contained. It's a two way, and the coach has a very specific job - exit tight, stay relative, break off on time, pull on time. No matter what happens to the 'student', the coaches job does not change.

Some guy with a camera, on some jump, with some number of people, doing some type of freefall skydiving aptly describes a 100 jump wonder set loose on a DZ with a GoPro. It could be anything and everything, and I don't think a guy with 100 jumps has the accumen to handle that wide open of a situation.


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:32 PM
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In reply to:
Yes, you read that wrong.

For the sake of my argument, I was offering examples of the 'bare minimum' required for a paid video jump, and the 'above and beyond' some camera flyers choose to apply.

That description is of an 'above and beyond' type effort on a video jump.

Ah, sorry about that. I see what you meant now.


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:36 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Now add making sure that the shot is framed correctly, the light is right, the background is right, etc etc and sticking a camera on your head doesn't sound quite so easy anymore, does it?

There in lies the problem with this argument... I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit. I think their mainly thinking the same thing as every other jump, lets try to get a good exit, stay together, get a dock, etc... but maybe that's just me.

In fact... I think that more often than not the person without the camera is probably more distracted than the person with the camera, thinking 'I want to get in that shot'. Maybe we should require people to have 200 jumps just to jump with other people that are wearing cameras.

You may be right on both parts, but I think billvon's mention of the problems he had with the bellypack camera negates your first instance - I could very well be wrong, though.

I'd be willing to bet that just about every camera flyer here has had an instance where they missed a shot BECAUSE they were trying to get the shot framed right, the right background, etc etc...


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 23, 2010, 9:43 PM
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I agree with you when you concoct all of those various scenarios, but I just feel that you are over complicating the use of a camera in a typical fun jump.

I would apply the same statement I just made above to respond here:

"There in lies the problem with this argument... I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit. I think their mainly thinking the same thing as every other jump, lets try to get a good exit, stay together, get a dock, etc... but maybe that's just me.

In fact... I think that more often than not the person without the camera is probably more distracted than the person with the camera, thinking 'I want to get in that shot'. Maybe we should require people to have 200 jumps just to jump with other people that are wearing cameras."

For the record I don't think the 200 jump recommendation should change for camera use... and I feel that 'Coaches' should be required to have 200 jumps instead of 100.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 23, 2010, 11:09 PM
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>I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their
>buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit.

They don't think they are, but history has shown that they do. As mentioned previously, DSE now has a fairly long list of people who _did_ get distracted by some of that stuff.

Reminds me of the low time guy who swoops near the beer line but swears up and down that he's not 'distracted' by the crowd, he's not just showing off, he can land wherever he wants and that just happens to be the best spot etc.

>In fact... I think that more often than not the person without the camera
>is probably more distracted than the person with the camera, thinking 'I
>want to get in that shot'.

Quite possible. However, there are also a great many skydivers who, by the time they graduate AFF, have already learned to deal with that particular distraction. (And after doing video for a lot of AFF's, it is sometimes something they have to learn to deal with.)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 23, 2010, 11:19 PM
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Reminds me of the low time guy who swoops near the beer line but swears up and down that he's not 'distracted' by the crowd, he's not just showing off, he can land wherever he wants and that just happens to be the best spot etc.
Which is why there is also a bar to reach before doing demos...the distractions are off the charts in many cases, if your skills aren't deep seeded and automatic you might get dirty.


The111  (D 29246)

Jun 23, 2010, 11:22 PM
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In reply to:
>I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their
>buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit.

They don't think they are, but history has shown that they do. As mentioned previously, DSE now has a fairly long list of people who _did_ get distracted by some of that stuff.

Agreed. Have you done a camera jump, Ridestrong? I have done hundreds... but my very first one was one of my all-time stupidest skydives (recounted somewhere previously in this thread, I think).

Cameras are huge distractions, plain and simple.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 24, 2010, 12:16 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
>I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their
>buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit.

They don't think they are, but history has shown that they do. As mentioned previously, DSE now has a fairly long list of people who _did_ get distracted by some of that stuff.

Agreed. Have you done a camera jump, Ridestrong? I have done hundreds... but my very first one was one of my all-time stupidest skydives (recounted somewhere previously in this thread, I think).

Cameras are huge distractions, plain and simple.

Here is a video of a buddy and I doing our first heli jump with GoPro's, both his perspective and mine. I haven't jumped with a camera over the past ~40 jumps and will not until I hit 200. I think you'll see by the video that I wasn't exactly thinking about the 'lighting'... Laugh Yeah we geeked it up for the camera and I'm sure there will be a bunch of different interpretations of it, but I can tell you that once I climbed out of that chopper I never once thought about that camera on my helmet.

2 Monkeys Jumping Out of a Chopper


trig78  (B License)

Jun 24, 2010, 12:27 AM
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Re: [RickH] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not making it a rating?


(This post was edited by trig78 on Jun 24, 2010, 1:11 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 24, 2010, 6:25 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit. I think their mainly thinking the same thing as every other jump, lets try to get a good exit, stay together, get a dock, etc... but maybe that's just me.

Yep, that's just you.

You make this statement based on your own experience, and possibly that of a few people around you. I make my statements based on watching literally 100's of people come and go through this sport, and the common mistakes that prevail with those people.

So you strapped on a GoPro, and did some jumps with it. A helo jump is a poor example, because the jump itself it quite unique, and likely to command your full attention (aka repect). Put yourself at the DZ on any Sat or Sun, and imagine your mindset going into your 6th or 7th jump of the day, the 3rd or 4th you made with same group of guys. Your comfort level goes up, and that's when your brain starts working (or not working as the case may be).

The types of scenarios I outlined are not the first, second, or even tenth jump with a camera. They creep in once you get 'comfortable'. The errors on those early jumps surround gear checks and overall awareness on a skydive. To a guy with 100 jumps, 20 jumps with a camera seems like a good hunk of 'expereince', and that's when they start to get 'creative'.

I'm not sure why you persist in arguing this point when high-time jumper after high-time jumper freely admits that they all made these types of mistakes early on when jumping a camera. Some of them even cop to having 500+ jumps at the time they acted like an idiot. Why would they admit to the world that they fucked up, and that they are apparently 'average', and made some common, rookie mistakes if it wasn't true? Why would the USPA take their time to establish any sort of anything with regards to shooting video if the problem is non-existant?

(Keep in mind that creating an actual BSR is a nightmare of red-tape and paperwork, involving several committees, votes, and all sort of other BS. Creating a 'reccomendation' is 10x easier, and faster and gets it on the books ASAP).

You are 100% correct that there are jumpers with the capacity to safely shoot video of any kind with 100 jumps. Those ultra-bright, super talented jumpers do exist, but the problem is that it's really hard to know who fits that description, and who will go full-retard when the shit hits the fan. If you send people up and hope for the best, the guys who go full-retard will eventaully hurt themselves or someone esle, so the answer is simply to not send anyone up until they are well into a 'safe zone'.

Maybe you're ready at 100 jumps, and Biff is ready at 150, but Skippy needs 175 and Jimmy needs 225, so if everyone waits until they have 200 jumps, 3/4 of you will be fine, and Jimmy won't be jumping anymore in a year or two.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 24, 2010, 6:39 AM
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In reply to:
Why not making it a rating?


ssshhh - USPA already has enough ways to charge people for doing simple stuff - it's starting to look like PADI


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 24, 2010, 7:45 AM
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In reply to:
Right or wrong both the monkey and the snowflake are entitled to their opinions.

But what you continually CHOOSE to ignore is that your opinion disregards the EXPERIENCE of those that have come before you.

You and others with the attitude you have, have proven over time that they tend to end up dead or seriously injured. If you stop trying to be right and actually hear what those that have been in the sport for decades are saying, you may understand one day.

I hope you never end up in a bad situation and you know what? You may just make it 1000's of jumps with no problem. But the chances are, if you ignore good sound advice from people that have seen it and done it. Well... let us know the hospital you are in and we well send you a get well card. Or even a pretty wreath to hang on your tombstone.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 24, 2010, 7:54 AM
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The problem is that the penalty for ignoring the law of averages is not guaranteed. My sigline has its reason.

Wendy P.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 24, 2010, 8:00 AM
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Re: [dgskydive] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

the camera, the fast canopy, freeflying too soon, swooping too soon, base too soon, etc, etc, etc, etc

I guess individually, I can find ways to help a newbie get going on any one of them, even if it is early.

But the general attitude I see is newbies thinking they can just jump into all of them, without good training, before good habits/responses are learned and they think they'll be great at it without training.

So much of the resistance is just against this whole "I am entitled to all of this NOW". Which tends to create people with poor skills, potential for overload, and burnout and a skill set where no one wants to jump with him except another guy just like him - ok, they are welcome to smash each other into hamburger and think it's steak.

One real point - The skydiver that wants to try one thing early is also one that'll think he can do 3 things early. That's why we push back on "that guy". We don't want him to hurt himself (I don't much care about that, but I don't want him to hurt others or me)

People want to learn, but any generic structure that's laid out will be based on the most conservative approach and will be frustrating, by definition, to most newbies. Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.

no solution here, just thoughts


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 24, 2010, 8:07 AM
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We should start a "Mad Skillz" DZ. I bet it would get sued a lot and have a lot of memorials on it.


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 24, 2010, 8:07 AM
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Re: [wmw999] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with your sig line 100%


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 24, 2010, 8:22 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
To the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.

I'm just curious... which do you think most distracts a jumper from their own personal awareness?

1. Jumping out with another person who you intend to coach; matching their fall rate, paying attention to their form, watching their maneuvers, watching their track at break-off.

or

2. Jumping with a GoPro on your helmet?

The jump with the GoPro.

The jump with the coach has been planned practiced and has taken into account safety and contingency plans.

The majority of low time GoPro jumps think it's all about "fire and forget", do not plan for contingencies, do not consider the safety aspects, but then try to "fly camera".

It's only hundreds of years and tens of thousands of jumps worth of skydiving experience that is saying this over, and over, and over, and over, and over......


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 24, 2010, 8:30 AM
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Quote:
I guess individually, I can find ways to help a newbie get going on any one of them, even if it is early.

But the general attitude I see is newbies thinking they can just jump into all of them
Nailed it. Swooping is not what you do at the end of an already fun-filled and busy jump, it's what you learn as a separate discipline and spend real time on. Likewise camera, likewise FF, etc.

Each one is a discipline in and of itself worthy of spending time on, not just an add-on to the "real" jump.

Me, I run out of brain cells if I try to do too many things on the same jump. That includes just jumping at a new DZ.

Wendy P.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 24, 2010, 8:44 AM
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Quote:
People want to learn, but any generic structure that's laid out will be based on the most conservative approach and will be frustrating, by definition, to most newbies.

What's interesting is that if any one of those 'frustrated' jumpers would just apply themselves to something more appropriate to their skill level, they would find plenty of excitement and reward participating in jumps they are ready for.

How many of the 'mad skillz' can actually launch a four peice out of the door? Consistantly? How many can turn pieces relative to other pieces? How about vertical moves, how many can do those without crashing down on the other peice?

Can any of the 'mad skillz' guys exit stable in a sit and on their haed? How about with grips?

Can any of them keep up with a fast paced tracking dive? On their back or belly?

How about go 10 for 10 trying to land with 2m of a target?

All of the above are appropriate skills for any jumper to work on, and all challenging as hell. If you sought out some no-cost ground based coaching in any of the above skills, you could occupy an easy 20 jumps working on any one of them. Once you have a goal in mind, and a method to achieve that goal, you suddenly install purpose and reward to your jumps.

But no, everyone wants to leapfrog over those things right to the next 'big thing'. As soon as they strap on a video camera, it won't be long until they want a still camera. Are they flying the video well, and producing consistantly good footage? Probably not, but all they want is that next big step.

Once you start doing 90's to final, everyone starts talking 180s or 270s. Are the 90s clean, and with accuracy? Hell no, but onward and upwards.

Even if these guys manage to go the distance, and stay in the sport and out of the hospital, all you have is a buch of guys with 1000 jumps who suck at just about everything.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 24, 2010, 8:49 AM
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In reply to:
Even if these guys manage to go the distance, and stay in the sport and out of the hospital, all you have is a bunch of guys with 1000 jumps who suck at just about everything.

nailed it


justme12001  (D 29862)

Jun 24, 2010, 9:45 AM
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+1


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Jun 24, 2010, 9:54 AM
Post #117 of 294 (1028 views)
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In reply to:

Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.

Its easy for my dz to watch out for folks and such because we just have a couple of Cessnas. What about the guys jumping at Eloy or Perris or Chicago? It seems that it would be extremely easy for them to get onto a plane where no one knows who they are or their skill level with a camera with no one ever saying a word.

The good things about those dropzones is that there are tons of really good and experienced flyers to learn from. The downside is that it is easier to do stupid shit and not have anyone notice or care as long as you don't endanger them.


dninness  (D 19617)

Jun 24, 2010, 10:16 AM
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In reply to:
>The youth of today has grown up expecting instant gratification.

It's not just today; youth has always been like that.

But yes, it's a problem. Most people in the sport for a short time have never seen a fatality or even a serious injury. So for them, anyone who tells them "you shouldn't do that" is a twat who thinks that they're God's gift to skydiving, and only they can do the cool exciting stuff. Why else would they try to stop them?

Bill, you nailed this one.

Jim Crouch was up here in the northeast about a month ago, and Mary Lou held an S&TA meeting with him at my DZ. All were invited, not just S&TAs, and Jim passed around a clipboard for anybody to write topics on.

This was one of those topics, and interestingly, one of the guys in the room was a ~125 jump low-timer who'd recently gotten and jumped (repeatedly) a Go-Pro. While I did not call him out by name, I did say "We've seen some folks show up with low jump numbers and a camera and act like it 'ain't no big deal'.." Jim and all the S&TAs agreed that the 200 jump recommendation, while being just a recommendation, was really a good place to start and that its up to the S&TAs and the DZOs to enforce recommendations like that.

Sure a guy with 175 jumps *might* be able to handle a camera. But having jumped a few dozen camera jumps myself, I think for a low-timer its a tremendous distraction. Hell, even now I find myself "flying my head" for the shot when i swore up and down that i wasn't doing that.

:)

Our low-time guy with the Go-Pro, after that meeting, decided to put his Go-Pro away until he has at least 200 jumps. He asked me after "hey, was that me you were referring to in there?" I said "Yeah, you and a couple others, but mostly you." He said "I didn't think that it was a big deal, but I can see, and have seen, where the camera can cause me to lose focus on the task at hand. And I don't want there to be a problem where someone could say 'Yeah, its cuz he's got 160 jumps and a camera!' ..."

Conversely, I jumped with another coach last year who was borrowing a low-timers camera helmet (long story) while jumping a coach jump. The coach and another jumper spent the entire ride to altitude dinking with the camera and hamming it up on tape. I wound up reviewing the skydive in the plane and doing the student's gear checks because the other coach was so distracted by the camera. (never mind the quality of the skydive).

*sigh*

BTW, I think those Go-Pro mounts are an accident waiting for a riser or line. Most folks I see with them don't have a helmet cutaway or some kind of a frangible mount, and one DZ nearby, after an errant Go-Pro came off its original mount and landed nearby, mandated that they be securely bolted to the flyer's helmet. Heaven forbid that a line snakes around that thing on deployment and creates either a mal or a broken neck.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 24, 2010, 10:21 AM
Post #119 of 294 (1006 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.

Its easy for my dz to watch out for folks and such because we just have a couple of Cessnas. What about the guys jumping at Eloy or Perris or Chicago? It seems that it would be extremely easy for them to get onto a plane where no one knows who they are or their skill level with a camera with no one ever saying a word.

The good things about those dropzones is that there are tons of really good and experienced flyers to learn from. The downside is that it is easier to do stupid shit and not have anyone notice or care as long as you don't endanger them.

VERY true...like I said I don't know 1/2 the people on a given load at my DZ. (Spaceland)

...and if one more n00b asks me if my flag container is a tersh and can they jump it, I'm gonna pinch off their little heads like a mantis!Sly


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jun 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
Post #120 of 294 (1005 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wendy you are absolutely correct that at busier DZ's its way easier for things to slide. At a medium or larger turbine DZ its common to only know the names of half the people on the DZ and for the staff to be too involved in the student jumps to be putting much attention into the experienced jumpers until there is an incident. I used to travel a lot and especially when I was around the 100-300 jump level I never was really questioned when I showed up at a DZ for a boogie about what was I dong, how much experience I had or if I should have been jumping my camera at that time or not.


brucet7  (C 38954)

Jun 24, 2010, 1:36 PM
Post #121 of 294 (969 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave, I appreciated the list of skills that one needs work on. That is almost the exact list that I am working on. One or more of those things is the objective of every jump. I jump with lots of new jumpers, even though I am not really that great myself. One week we are trying to stay in the same area and a similar altitude. The next week I see them they are too busy working on their freefly to do a two way and showing me there new camera set up. They funnel out the door, but they do have nice pictures to show on the big screen TV in the hanger. I personally have not thought about a camera other than looking at a helmet that will one day maybe hold one.

But then I am old and hope to get older.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 24, 2010, 1:57 PM
Post #122 of 294 (962 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.

Its easy for my dz to watch out for folks and such because we just have a couple of Cessnas. What about the guys jumping at Eloy or Perris or Chicago? It seems that it would be extremely easy for them to get onto a plane where no one knows who they are or their skill level with a camera with no one ever saying a word.

The good things about those dropzones is that there are tons of really good and experienced flyers to learn from. The downside is that it is easier to do stupid shit and not have anyone notice or care as long as you don't endanger them.

VERY true...like I said I don't know 1/2 the people on a given load at my DZ. (Spaceland)

...and if one more n00b asks me if my flag container is a tersh and can they jump it, I'm gonna pinch off their little heads like a mantis!Sly

d00d!! you got a tersh rig?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 29, 2010, 4:19 PM
Post #123 of 294 (825 views)
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Re: [RickH] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I did an improvised poll.

<100 jumps: No
>100 jumps <200 jumps: No freakin' clue
>200 jumps: Yes


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 29, 2010, 4:35 PM
Post #124 of 294 (818 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.

Its easy for my dz to watch out for folks and such because we just have a couple of Cessnas. What about the guys jumping at Eloy or Perris or Chicago? It seems that it would be extremely easy for them to get onto a plane where no one knows who they are or their skill level with a camera with no one ever saying a word.

The good things about those dropzones is that there are tons of really good and experienced flyers to learn from. The downside is that it is easier to do stupid shit and not have anyone notice or care as long as you don't endanger them.

VERY true...like I said I don't know 1/2 the people on a given load at my DZ. (Spaceland)

...and if one more n00b asks me if my flag container is a tersh and can they jump it, I'm gonna pinch off their little heads like a mantis!Sly

d00d!! you got a tersh rig?

Lucky bastard. I only have a duoche rig.
Mad


PmedicJ

Jun 29, 2010, 6:19 PM
Post #125 of 294 (785 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, This is my recommendation!

People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical 200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's

We must all agree that the SIM is a little outdated...Or not!

But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the go-pro or contour? Have a debriefing and recommend to or not until such person is said to meet the requirements to use such a device and until they learn and apply the potential dangers and hazards associated with them are they aloud to use this device, along with having a rigger and S&TA sign off on! IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

I have heard new jumpers say "i will bang out another 150 or so hop n" pops and then I can use my new camera and a wingsuit together @ the same time!"

where is the instruction and training?

Oh that's right the SIM

We all know that it takes time but how about time and a little instruction?

I think that this might cure some rambunctious behavior and keep some folks satisfied at the same time!

Just my opinion!


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 29, 2010, 6:59 PM
Post #126 of 294 (1044 views)
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Re: [PmedicJ] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

It already is an "official recommendation."
And one unlikely to change.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 29, 2010, 10:03 PM
Post #127 of 294 (1012 views)
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Re: [PmedicJ] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok, This is my recommendation!

People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical 200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's

We must all agree that the SIM is a little outdated...Or not!

But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the go-pro or contour? Have a debriefing and recommend to or not until such person is said to meet the requirements to use such a device and until they learn and apply the potential dangers and hazards associated with them are they aloud to use this device, along with having a rigger and S&TA sign off on! IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

I have heard new jumpers say "i will bang out another 150 or so hop n" pops and then I can use my new camera and a wingsuit together @ the same time!"

where is the instruction and training?

Oh that's right the SIM

We all know that it takes time but how about time and a little instruction?

I think that this might cure some rambunctious behavior and keep some folks satisfied at the same time!

Just my opinion!

Dude this is what I think about that.


PmedicJ

Jun 30, 2010, 12:36 AM
Post #128 of 294 (995 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

It already is an "official recommendation."
And one unlikely to change.

Ok you have me on that comment!
But the fact is, it's outdated and needs to change! Like I said there are way too many people finding a way around this by doing the likes of hop n' pops or just plain using them without instruction and it needs to change!

I believe my solution would work and be a heck of a lot safer in the long run!


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 30, 2010, 2:48 AM
Post #129 of 294 (981 views)
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Re: [PmedicJ] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

But the fact is, it's outdated and needs to change! Like I said there are way too many people finding a way around this by doing the likes of hop n' pops or just plain using them without instruction and it needs to change!

Its not out dated. What has happened is that on larger DZs the up jumpers aren't mentoring young jumpers like they did in years past. I had an old grizzly JM that worked very hard to make sure I knew right from wrong in skydiving. He would jump with me and help me learn how to fly, he was the first to punk me out when I screwed up and the first to give me a beer at the end of the day.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 30, 2010, 4:23 AM
Post #130 of 294 (966 views)
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Re: [PmedicJ] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a guy show up wanting to do a re-currency jump having just under 100 jumps. He had a GPS unit on the top of his helmet strapped to a large camera mounting plate.

I told him no GPS unit, no mounting plate. He wanted to argue that it was not a camera. He had no clue about the potential snag point of the mounting plate that hung out a couple of inches on all sides.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:41 AM
Post #131 of 294 (954 views)
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Re: [PmedicJ] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a little surprised USPA hasn't made camera flying a rating. I'm a PADI Scuba instructor and that organization makes a lot of money issuing ratings of questionable value. As long as it is just a recommendation it will carry the weight and significance thereof. There is a big difference between I advise you not to do it and you can't do it.
It makes more sense to require specific training for the activity combined with a magic jump number.


(This post was edited by DiverMike on Jun 30, 2010, 5:42 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 30, 2010, 7:15 AM
Post #132 of 294 (925 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm a PADI Scuba instructor and that organization makes a lot of money issuing ratings of questionable value.

that's a kind way of putting it

I hear PADI is thinking of putting out a license for divers that want to wear 3mil wetsuits and charge for another license for those using 7mil wetsuits - put another dollar in

I really don't want USPA to go down that road any further than they already have (Coach and Pro Ratings come to mind)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 30, 2010, 7:21 AM
Post #133 of 294 (920 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

This 200 jump discussion has been going on for years. There is no reaaon that USPA will make it a rating (although I can't argue that it shouldn't be) and even if it were, there would always be someone there to pencil-whip someone else to receive the rating. They won't make canopy piloting a coachable, rated discipline either. Nor will they make wingloadings a controlled value much like many other countries do. Insurance, liability, litigation make USPA afraid of this avenue of authority.
The SIM is being updated on this subject even as I type.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 30, 2010, 7:24 AM
Post #134 of 294 (916 views)
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Re: [RickH] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

is the person camera flying or is the gopro just on top and doing normal shit???


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jun 30, 2010, 9:30 AM
Post #135 of 294 (878 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
is the person camera flying or is the gopro just on top and doing normal shit???

That really doesn't matter.

This past weekend, I slapped a Go-pro to get some footage while we were doing rotations. I was surprised at how much of a distraction that little camera was on jump run. Normally, I'm doing my last gear check, making sure my handles are in the right location, rig tight, etc. But now I found myself dicking around with the camera and distracted just a bit from my routine.

I think that is one of the hidden dangers, even if you are just going to do your normal dive, your pre-dive routine is alterred, your exit is alterred, and its just one more distraction. Young jumpers are shocked when I talk with them about snag hazards and the camera. Most don't know what they don't know.

Just because you have gotten 200 jumps does not magically make you qualified to fly a camera, but it is a minimum to consider. If you were the best student, had no issues all through your first 200 jumps, are situationally aware at all times, and getting excellent mentoring from an excellent camera-flyer then you could go ahead at 200 jumps. Most should wait even longer.

Like many things in this sport, its fine to do right up until something goes wrong, then it can be more of an issue than you can deal with effectively.

top


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 30, 2010, 9:32 AM
Post #136 of 294 (877 views)
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Re: [PmedicJ] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical
>200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's

A lot of stupid things happen on a lot of DZ's.

>But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps
>and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and
>watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the
>go-pro or contour?

What would that do? The problem is not snag hazard; if it were, we could say "no cameras unless they're really streamlined." The problem is not flying skill; if it were, we could say "no cameras until you can get so-and-so FS or VFS award."

The problem is distraction. And having someone else to help watch over you (in case you get too distracted by the camera) is nice, but won't help much on the _next_ jump after they're gone.

>where is the instruction and training?

The instruction needed to do camera well is not (I believe) the issue. It takes a while to garner the skills needed to be able to fly relative to a formation and to use wings. It takes a day or so to learn about the technical aspects of camera helmets (snag points, how to turn them on, neck protection, quick releases etc) Then it takes a while more to learn how to actually do video well, capture exits, frame your subject quickly etc.

But new jumpers who want to use cameras are adamant that none of that applies to them. "It's tiny and it's not a snag hazard." "I don't want to film 4 way, I just want to record my own jump." "I will turn it on and forget about it." "It's no bigger than my altimeter - what, are you going to BAN altimeters for low timers?"

So while I think an optional camera rating (maybe just a syllabus) would be great, it's not really going to solve this problem. (Unless you require a C license at the same time, that it.)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 30, 2010, 10:26 AM
Post #137 of 294 (863 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's only not a distraction if he doesn't know it's there. Even if you're used to distractions, even if you're used to cameras.

Skydiving by itself is worthy of one's full attention. Once one has managed skydiving with a lot of distractions (like the gear, the airplane, landings, other jumpers) under a lot of different conditions, one can think about deliberately adding distractions, rather than just dealing with the ones that are already there.

Yeah, people can survive it. They can survive jumping with too small a main. They can survive driving too fast. They can survive drinking too much. But you're relying on luck rather than risk management -- you've let control of your future go.

Wendy P.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Jun 30, 2010, 11:26 AM
Post #138 of 294 (839 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

From my point of view, the biggest problem is 200 minimum is just a recommendation and not a BSR. I have 38 jumps and would love to do a night jump, but I know it isn't go to happen until I get a 'B' license. No USA Dropzone is going to let me do it because it is a BSR.

I would be an idiot to disregard the recommendation, but within USPA Regulations to jump with a camera. On the other hand, I assume the DZ owner can enforce regulations above and beyond USPA's BSRs as long as they are uniformly enforced.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 30, 2010, 11:44 AM
Post #139 of 294 (826 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On the other hand, I assume the DZ owner can enforce regulations above and beyond USPA's BSRs as long as they are uniformly enforced.

Actually, the DZO can make and apply rules as he sees fit. No need for them to be uniform.

He can make rule that applies to me and not to you.

It is his business, and he can run it as he pleases.

Our part is to choose the dz we patronize based on how they meet our needs.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Jun 30, 2010, 11:49 AM
Post #140 of 294 (819 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually, the DZO can make and apply rules as he sees fit. No need for them to be uniform.

You are absolutely correct.


DARK  (B 31685)

Jun 30, 2010, 3:14 PM
Post #141 of 294 (771 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

just to play devils advocate

- a set limit for everyone is easy to enforce but dosnt really make anything all that much safer, if its a distraction its a distraction no matter how many jumps you have and there are people who can deal with that and people who cant no matter how many jumps they have. i know skydivers with hundreds of jumps and days in the tunnel who still cant deal with any extra distractions

- you cant look at people who wear go pros and look at the stupid shit they do and blame it on the go pros unless you have a way to compare it with stupid shit people do without go pros. the stupidest thing iv done in skydiving was done with no camera on my head (i have never jumped with any type of camera)

- i will more than likely wait until i have 200 jumps to jump with a camera as even though thats what iv always wanted to do since starting im not in any particular rush to do it this season BUT if i were to talk to my instructors who have known me from day one and who i live and work with on a day to day basis and they happen to think i would be safe to fly one i dont know what makes anyone on here think they know better

- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 30, 2010, 3:43 PM
Post #142 of 294 (758 views)
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Re: [DARK] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

You're going to have a hard time convincing USPA or any current, experienced skydiver that the recommendation should be less than 200 jumps. In a practical sense, the only people advocating lowering the number are those that don't have the experience.
You're right; experienced people also get distracted with a camera.
However, their experience affords them the muscle memory and thought process that allows them to deal with problems, much moreso than someone with virtually no experience. Sure...there are people that can manage a camera early on. In my own case, I began training for the camera on my 27th jump. I spent a lot of time in the tunnel with Ed Dickenson, a lot of air time with people like Jay Stokes, Jack Guthrie, Norman Kent, and a few others that really helped me along the way. I didn't fart around with trying to learn to freefly or anthing else. I did relative work and worked on proximity. Even then, I wasn't ready, not really. My second camera jump I ended up in a bad place. S*t happens, no doubt.
It can happen at 10, 200, 10,000 jumps. But the guy with 200 jumps is twice as equipped to deal with problems than the guy at 100 jumps, who is twice as equipped to deal with it than the guy who has 50 jumps. All you have to do is look at the list compiled of "stupid" that we've already collected in just a few months, and they don't represent 25% of what has likely gone on.
It's not the "I've been doing this for a while and getting away with it" that matters. It's that one time you find yourself in a spot and can't figure out how to deal with it fast enough. You put yourself and others at risk.
Only day before yesterday I watched a guy with 150 jumps wearing a camera practicing his sit. "I was just filming my own jump, trying to hold a heading and film my heading." He lost altitude and positional awareness and tracked into another person's airspace. They deployed about 50' apart. The relative worker who was nearly hit had no idea another person was that close until he heard a canopy opening just below and to his side.
IMO, that is unconscionable.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 30, 2010, 4:00 PM
Post #143 of 294 (753 views)
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Re: [DARK] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just to play devils advocate

- a set limit for everyone is easy to enforce but dosnt really make anything all that much safer, if its a distraction its a distraction no matter how many jumps you have and there are people who can deal with that and people who cant no matter how many jumps they have. i know skydivers with hundreds of jumps and days in the tunnel who still cant deal with any extra distractions

- you cant look at people who wear go pros and look at the stupid shit they do and blame it on the go pros unless you have a way to compare it with stupid shit people do without go pros. the stupidest thing iv done in skydiving was done with no camera on my head (i have never jumped with any type of camera)

- i will more than likely wait until i have 200 jumps to jump with a camera as even though thats what iv always wanted to do since starting im not in any particular rush to do it this season BUT if i were to talk to my instructors who have known me from day one and who i live and work with on a day to day basis and they happen to think i would be safe to fly one i dont know what makes anyone on here think they know better

- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

Look, the recommendation is simply that - a recommendation.

If a person thinks it should not be applied in that person's particular case, that person can go to the DZO and/or the S&TA and/or the head camera guy, and try to get approval. Maybe they know you well enough to give an immediate answer, or, maybe they will ask you to show them why the recommendation should not be applied in this particular case. But, whatever the course, the recommendation is a good place to start. Variance from it is something that will need to be earned. It is not to simply be expected. It is not about the size of the camera or the simplicity of the mount. It is about being ready to get into something that most people have not been ready for so soon. It is not a personal insult to fail to get a variance. These people have to consider your safety and the safety of those around you when such a request is presented. They are (usually) doing the best they can for all involved.

Some people are making it sound like the most horrible thing that there is a recommendation that says to wait.

But if they are good enough, and can prove it, there already are ways to approach the thing.

So what's the problem?


DARK  (B 31685)

Jun 30, 2010, 4:04 PM
Post #144 of 294 (751 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

You're going to have a hard time convincing USPA or any current, experienced skydiver that the recommendation should be less than 200 jumps. In a practical sense, the only people advocating lowering the number are those that don't have the experience.
You're right; experienced people also get distracted with a camera.
However, their experience affords them the muscle memory and thought process that allows them to deal with problems, much moreso than someone with virtually no experience. Sure...there are people that can manage a camera early on. In my own case, I began training for the camera on my 27th jump. I spent a lot of time in the tunnel with Ed Dickenson, a lot of air time with people like Jay Stokes, Jack Guthrie, Norman Kent, and a few others that really helped me along the way. I didn't fart around with trying to learn to freefly or anthing else. I did relative work and worked on proximity. Even then, I wasn't ready, not really. My second camera jump I ended up in a bad place. S*t happens, no doubt.
It can happen at 10, 200, 10,000 jumps. But the guy with 200 jumps is twice as equipped to deal with problems than the guy at 100 jumps, who is twice as equipped to deal with it than the guy who has 50 jumps. All you have to do is look at the list compiled of "stupid" that we've already collected in just a few months, and they don't represent 25% of what has likely gone on.
It's not the "I've been doing this for a while and getting away with it" that matters. It's that one time you find yourself in a spot and can't figure out how to deal with it fast enough. You put yourself and others at risk.
Only day before yesterday I watched a guy with 150 jumps wearing a camera practicing his sit. "I was just filming my own jump, trying to hold a heading and film my heading." He lost altitude and positional awareness and tracked into another person's airspace. They deployed about 50' apart. The relative worker who was nearly hit had no idea another person was that close until he heard a canopy opening just below and to his side.
IMO, that is unconscionable.

first of all im not saying i dont agree with you(accept about the only people advocating lowering the number is inexperienced people because i know that not to be true for a fact)

im just saying that a jump number is not necessarily the best way to gauge things and if that is the general consensus or if the general consensus is it should be a rating(even one your not eligible for until 200 jumps) then we as uspa members should be able to enact that change and just saying 'the uspa wont do that' is not a good enough answer

also as someone who is in the bracket you guys are talking about and i guess as someone you are trying to reach to see 'good sense' i can tell you that the way you guys are doing it right now has no affect

i dont care that dse has a list of people who have done stupid stuff and i wont care until there is a proper official comparison of idiots with cameras and without, and i can tell you that if your not having an affect on me(as a pretty conservative jumper who likes to take things fairly slow) then there is no way in hell your gonna reach the actual gung ho people you really gotta worry about

the reason i like the rating idea given by a respected appointed local is because people are far far more likely to listen to their peers who they know and respect and who knows them then to an 'official recomendation' in a book most will never read. making it a rating gives the idea that camera is a special discipline that deserves respect more weight imo


DARK  (B 31685)

Jun 30, 2010, 4:08 PM
Post #145 of 294 (748 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
just to play devils advocate

- a set limit for everyone is easy to enforce but dosnt really make anything all that much safer, if its a distraction its a distraction no matter how many jumps you have and there are people who can deal with that and people who cant no matter how many jumps they have. i know skydivers with hundreds of jumps and days in the tunnel who still cant deal with any extra distractions

- you cant look at people who wear go pros and look at the stupid shit they do and blame it on the go pros unless you have a way to compare it with stupid shit people do without go pros. the stupidest thing iv done in skydiving was done with no camera on my head (i have never jumped with any type of camera)

- i will more than likely wait until i have 200 jumps to jump with a camera as even though thats what iv always wanted to do since starting im not in any particular rush to do it this season BUT if i were to talk to my instructors who have known me from day one and who i live and work with on a day to day basis and they happen to think i would be safe to fly one i dont know what makes anyone on here think they know better

- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

Look, the recommendation is simply that - a recommendation.

If a person thinks it should not be applied in that person's particular case, that person can go to the DZO and/or the S&TA and/or the head camera guy, and try to get approval. Maybe they know you well enough to give an immediate answer, or, maybe they will ask you to show them why the recommendation should not be applied in this particular case. But, whatever the course, the recommendation is a good place to start. Variance from it is something that will need to be earned. It is not to simply be expected. It is not about the size of the camera or the simplicity of the mount. It is about being ready to get into something that most people have not been ready for so soon. It is not a personal insult to fail to get a variance. These people have to consider your safety and the safety of those around you when such a request is presented. They are (usually) doing the best they can for all involved.

Some people are making it sound like the most horrible thing that there is a recommendation that says to wait.

But if they are good enough, and can prove it, there already are ways to approach the thing.

So what's the problem?

thats pretty true i guess the problem is IF someone has done the above and goes elsewhere and all of a sudden they are either not allowed to jump or are ridiculed for being dangerous.

but ye your right, i personally dont see it as a major issue but it seems to be one that comes up around here over and over again


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jun 30, 2010, 4:55 PM
Post #146 of 294 (734 views)
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Re: [PmedicJ] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok, This is my recommendation!

People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical 200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's

We must all agree that the SIM is a little outdated...Or not!

But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the go-pro or contour? Have a debriefing and recommend to or not until such person is said to meet the requirements to use such a device and until they learn and apply the potential dangers and hazards associated with them are they aloud to use this device, along with having a rigger and S&TA sign off on! IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

I have heard new jumpers say "i will bang out another 150 or so hop n" pops and then I can use my new camera and a wingsuit together @ the same time!"

where is the instruction and training?

Oh that's right the SIM

We all know that it takes time but how about time and a little instruction?

I think that this might cure some rambunctious behavior and keep some folks satisfied at the same time!

Just my opinion!

How about change the SIM to 200 + Camera training? That would make more sense. Either way, 200< should be the minimum.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:09 PM
Post #147 of 294 (725 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO, the SIM is wrong in the way it's written anyway, because the main issues it addresses are those of snag hazards and not anything substantive about the psychology of the skydiver.

If you look at the camera forums, *most* of the issues fall into the distraction of the camera, not the neck-wrenching, snag-hazarding, falling off the helmet issues.

We've lost a few extremely experienced people due to the psychological changes in behavior that a camera inspires. We've lost newbies for the same reason.
The sad thing is, lesser experienced jumpers will use the loss of the experienced jumpers to point out "See? This happens to big dogs too." The missed point is how many times experienced people have gotten into a hole and been able to dig out because of the recommended experience levels.
Funnier still, we could make this a BSR, we could mandate camera training (I'm all for that) but then we'd have more people bitching about "stupid BSR's." Unsure


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:14 PM
Post #148 of 294 (721 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Only day before yesterday I watched a guy with 150 jumps wearing a camera practicing his sit. "I was just filming my own jump, trying to hold a heading and film my heading." He lost altitude and positional awareness and tracked into another person's airspace. They deployed about 50' apart. The relative worker who was nearly hit had no idea another person was that close until he heard a canopy opening just below and to his side.
IMO, that is unconscionable.

Sounds like all 3 of you were jumping solo but somehow in proximity of each other??? Maybe you guys need to work on your exit separation. TongueLaughLaugh

ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling. Unsure


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 30, 2010, 5:20 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:47 PM
Post #149 of 294 (709 views)
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Re: [DARK] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
im just saying that a jump number is not necessarily the best way to gauge things

No, it really is. Passing a test, or a rating course only show that performed well at that time, under those controlled circumstances. When set loose on the rest of the world, all you have to prove your worth is the day of ground school and the half-dozen jumps you did at the ratings course.

Look at other ratings, they all have jump number minimums, so even if they did create a camera rating, it would start with a 200 jump minimum, and go from there, so your net gain as a sub-200 jump guy would be zero.

The idea is this, buy the time you have 200 jumps, you have shown the ability to at least survive 200 jumps, which is pretty good. Much less then that, and you're still in the 'newbie' phase, leading up to 100 jumps. The time between 100 and 200, the classic '100 jump wonder' phase is where you prove your worth, and gain some real experiecne. People start to treat you like just another jumper, not the 'new guy' or the low man on the totem pole. You have to fend for yourself, and once you get used to that, you're a step closer to being able to 'walk and chew gum'.

Quote:
the reason i like the rating idea given by a respected appointed local is because people are far far more likely to listen to their peers who they know and respect and who knows them then to an 'official recomendation' in a book most will never read

If this is the impression you get from your local buddies, you should check if they wear their helmets all of the time, and not just while jumping.

Let's realize that the 'official book' is the same book that was referenced when ALL of your local peers and mentors learned to jump. They're still alive, still jumping, and are skilled enough to have your respect, but not the book?

How about the same book that was used when EVERY instructor on your DZ, who taught you and everyone else there, became an instructor? The book seemed to work out just fine for them, and in turn for you when they made you a skydiver, but now the book just sucks, right?


(This post was edited by davelepka on Jun 30, 2010, 5:48 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:56 PM
Post #150 of 294 (704 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like all 3 of you were jumping solo but somehow in proximity of each other??? Maybe you guys need to work on your exit separation. TongueLaughLaugh

ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling. Unsure

Not a remotely accurate assumption. Merely evidence that you have no clue what you have no idea about....Tongue

That said...what should the RW guy do when he's at 3K and sees another body from a different stick falling towards him as he's deploying?
How should he have cleared his airspace "better?"
Should he stop his deployment and track?
Which way should he track?
You have a better alternative to the low man rule?
How does the first stick out "work on exit separation" in mid-jump?
Is the first stick out responsible in any way for exit separation?


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 30, 2010, 6:26 PM
Post #151 of 294 (1341 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Sounds like all 3 of you were jumping solo but somehow in proximity of each other??? Maybe you guys need to work on your exit separation. TongueLaughLaugh

ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling. Unsure

Not a remotely accurate assumption. Merely evidence that you have no clue what you have no idea about....Tongue

In reply to:
That said...what should the RW guy do when he's at 3K and sees another body from a different stick falling towards him as he's deploying?

If he's at 3K and worried that the other jumper will collide with him then he may want to use the next 5 sec or 1K to get some distance from the potential collision. Especially if that other jumper is directly above.

In this particular situation you mentioned you said the other jumper was below. In which case he may want to pull immediately to avoid falling into the low guy who may deploy without paying further attention.

In reply to:
How should he have cleared his airspace "better?"

I usually do a 'scan' of my airspace before pulling, probably even more so if I'm jumping solo, as I likely have more time since I'm not busy tracking away from other jumpers I know are there.

In reply to:
Should he stop his deployment and track?

Yes, if he hasn't already pulled and collision is imminent.

In reply to:
Which way should he track?

Which ever way will give him the quickest/greatest separation.

In reply to:
You have a better alternative to the low man rule?

Doesn't mean low man shouldn't check his airspace before pulling.

In reply to:
How does the first stick out "work on exit separation" in mid-jump?
Is the first stick out responsible in any way for exit separation?

No first stick out is not responsible for the following exit separation, but he/she should be conscious that it's not always followed to a 't' unfortunately, and may still want to be aware of their own airspace as best as possible.


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 30, 2010, 6:36 PM)


Hellis

Jun 30, 2010, 7:49 PM
Post #152 of 294 (1317 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I usually do a 'scan' of my airspace before pulling

I would say that is much harder than you would think.
I had a jump a few weeks ago where i was going to video two people doing RW.
On the jumprun the tandem decided to exit before us, and that suprised us alot.
Because of i knew we had tandem below us i held my head in the direction where the RW was going on and i scaned for the tandem with my eyes, it took me quite some time to find the tandem.
And keep in mind, a tandem is much easier to find than a normal jumper because of the drouge.

Unless you have keept your eyes on the previous group all the time during your jump, i would say its luck if you find them


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 30, 2010, 8:30 PM
Post #153 of 294 (1306 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I usually do a 'scan' of my airspace before pulling

I would say that is much harder than you would think.
I had a jump a few weeks ago where i was going to video two people doing RW.
On the jumprun the tandem decided to exit before us, and that suprised us alot.
Because of i knew we had tandem below us i held my head in the direction where the RW was going on and i scaned for the tandem with my eyes, it took me quite some time to find the tandem.
And keep in mind, a tandem is much easier to find than a normal jumper because of the drouge.

Unless you have keept your eyes on the previous group all the time during your jump, i would say its luck if you find them

1. Obviously that jump order was f'd up by either you guys or the tandem, automatically making that a unique scenario. If that had happened to me then I would have probably changed my dive to a tracking dive or at least would have done a higher pull than normal, assuming I/we were in the last group out. In addition I would have provided a lot of separation time.

2. I said I 'scan' my airspace... I didn't say I look for every group or jumper that was out before me, that would be ridiculous.

ETA: I wasn't there for your situation so I'm not saying I think you guys did any thing wrong or unsafe. Didn't mean to be a dick head. Smile


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 30, 2010, 8:53 PM)


DARK  (B 31685)

Jun 30, 2010, 8:37 PM
Post #154 of 294 (1301 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If this is the impression you get from your local buddies, you should check if they wear their helmets all of the time, and not just while jumping.

Let's realize that the 'official book' is the same book that was referenced when ALL of your local peers and mentors learned to jump. They're still alive, still jumping, and are skilled enough to have your respect, but not the book?

How about the same book that was used when EVERY instructor on your DZ, who taught you and everyone else there, became an instructor? The book seemed to work out just fine for them, and in turn for you when they made you a skydiver, but now the book just sucks, right?

you seem to be under the impression that i dont like the sim, thats not what i meant, its great, i just meant most fun jumpers iv met never look at a sim after a certain point in their careers unless they are studying for a rating but they are constantly listening to the advice of their peers. im not saying this is right its just the way it appears to be


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2010, 9:07 PM
Post #155 of 294 (1290 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling.

Did you really just write that?

You need to stop jumping. Now.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 30, 2010, 9:17 PM
Post #156 of 294 (1286 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ETA: I wasn't there for your situation so I'm not saying I think you guys did any thing wrong or unsafe. Didn't mean to be a dick head. Smile

Actually, you did say exactly that.

You cannot reasonably expect to see someone in your airspace at pull time if they were not part of your stick.
They may well not be able to see you, either.
Lemme guess....you barrel roll before you deploy?Tongue

We can debate this point over and over again...but the bottom line is that hundreds of thousands of jumps, a hundred plus years of experience, and dozens of actual incidents, near-incidents, and even your own attitude and experience demonstrate exactly why the recommendation exists.

I understand you feel you're uniquely talented and can manage a camera on your head. Curiously enough, you've already proven that a camera distracted you enough to cutaway your helmet before you cutaway your canopy, and counted on your RSL to pull for you.

For most people, that would set off significant alarms.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 30, 2010, 9:34 PM
Post #157 of 294 (1278 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling.

Did you really just write that?

You need to stop jumping. Now.

Why is that so off the wall? Just cause your jumping solo you don't need to check your airspace before pulling? Guess there wouldn't be much point in waving off either.. Crazy

ETA: I realize the the RW guy wasn't jumping solo (unless he was doing solo RW Laugh), but I still maintain he should be aware of his own airspace before pulling.


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 30, 2010, 10:13 PM)


JohnnyMarko

Jun 30, 2010, 9:58 PM
Post #158 of 294 (1271 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just edit your dropzone.com profile to say you have 200 jumps


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 30, 2010, 10:03 PM
Post #159 of 294 (1270 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...but the bottom line is that hundreds of thousands of jumps, a hundred plus years of experience, and dozens of actual incidents, near-incidents, and even your own attitude and experience demonstrate exactly why the recommendation exists.

I understand you feel you're uniquely talented and can manage a camera on your head. Curiously enough, you've already proven that a camera distracted you enough to cutaway your helmet before you cutaway your canopy, and counted on your RSL to pull for you.

For most people, that would set off significant alarms.

Yep I saw that coming... you asked me a set of basic questions, that I gave basic and reasonable answers to and that is your response.


I will be the first to admit that I like to debate these issues with you guys because I do learn more, and I guess I manage to push some buttons along the way... but when it comes to how highly I think of my self and skydiving, I'm no "better" than the guy or girl doing their first solo jump off AFF.


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jun 30, 2010, 10:15 PM)


Heatmiser  (C License)

Jul 1, 2010, 6:56 AM
Post #160 of 294 (1232 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

1st and foremost, If you're the high guy at 3000 feet and a collision is imminent, you don't immediately pitch to gain "vertical separation." The second your PC comes out, you've lost all directional control. If you snivel, and the low guy has a quicker opening, then you have a decent chance at a canopy collision. High man is the one that continues to track away and opens lower.


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jul 1, 2010, 7:25 AM
Post #161 of 294 (1228 views)
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Re: [Heatmiser] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1st and foremost, If you're the high guy at 3000 feet and a collision is imminent, you don't immediately pitch to gain "vertical separation." The second your PC comes out, you've lost all directional control. If you snivel, and the low guy has a quicker opening, then you have a decent chance at a canopy collision. High man is the one that continues to track away and opens lower.

I was on a formation dive where that exact situation killed a friend of mine Frown

Good advice.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jul 1, 2010, 7:59 AM
Post #162 of 294 (1216 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... but when it comes to how highly I think of my self and skydiving, I'm no "better" than the guy or girl doing their first solo jump off AFF.

I guess in the sense that "We are all created equal...", that may be true. But if your skydiving is no better now than when you came off AFF, then that doesn't say much for your desire to progress in this sport.

So far in this discussion, you, Mr. Ridestrong, have stretched every point to argue in your favor. You have argued with every person who has tried to share their experience with you. You are coming off as a whining pissant, who simply wants to justify your own thinking without regard to the facts and the collective experience and observations of people who have been doing this stuff far longer than you have. Your reasoning and discussion skills have been similar to those of a spoiled kid who has all the reasons in the world why he should get his way. It has become very tiresome to read anything that you post. Give it a fucking rest.

Kevin Keenan
Florida


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 1, 2010, 9:23 AM
Post #163 of 294 (1194 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow! What an interesting thread to read :)

So I'm a newbie to the sport in terms of jump numbers and currently am flying with a GoPro strapped to my head and occasionally my ankle (flame away). I only have 105 jumps but both my DZO and my S&TA have signed off and briefed me on EP's and other various hazards. They both felt that after jumping with me that I was "heads-up" enough with my situational awareness, jump routine, and everything else to allow me to "start small" so to speak.

I only bring that up to say that the recommendation of 200 jumps is just that...It's a recommendation. Everything about it is good, wise, and there to protect not just the one flying camera, but in my opinion and more importantly the others you share the blue skies with.

I know people who have 800 jumps that I don't even like to jump with because they are scary ash @#$! to jump with, and I also know people with 150-200+ jumps that give more heed to safety and also are "heads-up" as it pertains to awareness and emergency procedures. Before I get my head torn off, I know that with jump numbers come muscle memory, and quicker reactions to adverse situations, but we aren't all cast from the same mold either. Some people pick things up quicker and have that ability, some don't.

So should people with less than 200 jumps be able to fly camera? Yes. The USPA says that someone with only 100 jumps can be a Coach and jump with someone in the sky who has only 8 AFF jumps...But no S&TA in their right mind will sign off on that rating unless the individual has demonstrated their ability to make good decisions for both their sake and the students sake. Same applies to the Camera. At the end of the day it's more up to the DZO and the S&TA to ensure that people aren't being morons. The USPA aren't the police...they are just there to collect money...whoops did I say that out loud? How about all the DZ's and S&TA's do a better job of ensuring that the wrong people aren't flying camera too early.

With that, you can all flame me riiiiiiiiiiiight.......now!Tongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 1, 2010, 9:44 AM
Post #164 of 294 (1182 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

> I only have 105 jumps but both my DZO and my S&TA have signed off and
>briefed me on EP's and other various hazards. They both felt that after
>jumping with me that I was "heads-up" enough with my situational
>awareness, jump routine, and everything else to allow me to "start small"
>so to speak.

That's great; you're a Real Skygod, congratulations. At least you're starting early.

The 200 jump thing isn't an average recommendation for most people. It is a MINIMUM recommendation for exceptional people. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his list of maximum canopy loadings; people started reading it and saying "oh, I should be under a 135 at my weight and experience, but I have a 150 - better downsize!" Which of course completely misses the point.

In this (and many) areas of skydiving, people push the limits. The result of your experience is that Joe Expert who has 50 jumps, but is really exceptional, can skip the 105 jump limit that less-aware people like you heed. And that will continue to happen until enough people die that we do something about it. It has happened before with depressing regularity; as Spot's list indicates, it's happening again with cameras.


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 1, 2010, 10:06 AM
Post #165 of 294 (1174 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> ....

That's great; you're a Real Skygod, congratulations. At least you're starting early.

The 200 jump thing isn't an average recommendation for most people. It is a MINIMUM recommendation for exceptional people. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his list of maximum canopy loadings; people started reading it and saying "oh, I should be under a 135 at my weight and experience, but I have a 150 - better downsize!" Which of course completely misses the point.

In this (and many) areas of skydiving, people push the limits. The result of your experience is that Joe Expert who has 50 jumps, but is really exceptional, can skip the 105 jump limit that less-aware people like you heed. And that will continue to happen until enough people die that we do something about it. It has happened before with depressing regularity; as Spot's list indicates, it's happening again with cameras.

Yeah I wasn't "tooting my own horn"...I was using it as an example to show that the decision for jumping with the GoPro camera was not my own in it's entirety. I actually give a crap about my own safety as well as the others around me which is why I didn't just slap on a camera at 50 jumps and rock n' roll...I went through the proper channels and sought the approval of more experienced jumpers.

And Skygod I am not...There was no need for that. I'm just another guy posting an opinion on a thread of opinions...Unimpressed


DARK  (B 31685)

Jul 1, 2010, 11:04 AM
Post #166 of 294 (1143 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> I only have 105 jumps but both my DZO and my S&TA have signed off and
>briefed me on EP's and other various hazards. They both felt that after
>jumping with me that I was "heads-up" enough with my situational
>awareness, jump routine, and everything else to allow me to "start small"
>so to speak.

That's great; you're a Real Skygod, congratulations. At least you're starting early.

The 200 jump thing isn't an average recommendation for most people. It is a MINIMUM recommendation for exceptional people. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his list of maximum canopy loadings; people started reading it and saying "oh, I should be under a 135 at my weight and experience, but I have a 150 - better downsize!" Which of course completely misses the point.

In this (and many) areas of skydiving, people push the limits. The result of your experience is that Joe Expert who has 50 jumps, but is really exceptional, can skip the 105 jump limit that less-aware people like you heed. And that will continue to happen until enough people die that we do something about it. It has happened before with depressing regularity; as Spot's list indicates, it's happening again with cameras.

your reply is the exact thing i have a problem with in this debate. completely patronising and unreasonable.

he has done everything within his power to ensure he is doing things safely

you have many thousands of jumps and thats great you know what you are talking about clearly but so to does the s+ta and the dzo(they may even have more jumps and experience then you) so why are you automatically correct and they are automatically wrong when you know nothing about this guy besides his jump numbers and they know him personally and probably have been on the dz for every one of his jumps?

why should he take your opinion over theirs? why is your interpretation of the recomendation more valid then theirs?


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jul 1, 2010, 11:40 AM
Post #167 of 294 (1120 views)
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Re: [DARK] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why should he take your opinion over theirs? why is your interpretation of the recomendation more valid then theirs?

I've not been in the sport very long, but I've already seen people with many times my jump numbers do stupid shit and suffer the consequences.

I've also seen people who don't know any better use the tacit or explicit approval of some guy with many thousands of jumps as a reason that their doing stupid shit is OK.

You don't take the advice of just the x000 jump person necessarily. But you listen to a bunch of them, and figure out what most of them think.

Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.

Sure. It's just a recommendation. Maybe he's right. But I will not jump with a guy with a hundred jumps and a GoPro on his head, even when I'm somewhere the rules allow it. I think I have pretty good reason.


(This post was edited by Joellercoaster on Jul 1, 2010, 11:42 AM)


Hellis

Jul 1, 2010, 12:37 PM
Post #168 of 294 (1101 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I usually do a 'scan' of my airspace before pulling

I would say that is much harder than you would think.
I had a jump a few weeks ago where i was going to video two people doing RW.
On the jumprun the tandem decided to exit before us, and that suprised us alot.
Because of i knew we had tandem below us i held my head in the direction where the RW was going on and i scaned for the tandem with my eyes, it took me quite some time to find the tandem.
And keep in mind, a tandem is much easier to find than a normal jumper because of the drouge.

Unless you have keept your eyes on the previous group all the time during your jump, i would say its luck if you find them

1. Obviously that jump order was f'd up by either you guys or the tandem, automatically making that a unique scenario. If that had happened to me then I would have probably changed my dive to a tracking dive or at least would have done a higher pull than normal, assuming I/we were in the last group out. In addition I would have provided a lot of separation time.

2. I said I 'scan' my airspace... I didn't say I look for every group or jumper that was out before me, that would be ridiculous.

ETA: I wasn't there for your situation so I'm not saying I think you guys did any thing wrong or unsafe. Didn't mean to be a dick head. Smile

Let me make it a bit more clear.
The door was open, two groups have exited (4 in total, leaving us and tandem), it was the next groups turn to exit, we started moving towards the door when tandems comes pushing hes way infront.

So its not like it was a planned thing, atleast not for us.
The video shows 9 seconds seperation from tandem to our group exits.
I would say that is a rather healthy delay between groups with a turbine plane

No worries, i dont think its at all unreasonable way you responded to this event.
Even if everything worked out fine this time, those who reads this thread and has limited knowledge of normal exitorder might not understand the issues here.
That the pullaltitude of a tandem might be an issue for groups exiting after tandem, and that a larger group drifts more in the wind.
Even if its important to say "You guys fucked up in that lift" (not saying thats the way you said it), its also important to tell those who dont understand why.
But we did leave a big seperation, and in freefall i looked for (and found) the tandem. If i would have thought the tandem was too close i would have tried to get my fellow jumpers attention of the problem.


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 1, 2010, 12:48 PM
Post #169 of 294 (1092 views)
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Re: [Joellercoaster] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

You make a good point about not just listening to the guy/gal with "x000" jumps, but rather listening to multiple people with those numbers. I totally agree with that.

So using that logic, combined with the fact that I jump primarily at a very small DZ, that logic would suggest that I'm in the right for continuing to learn to jump with a camera. I say this simply because not only did my S&TA with over 12,000 jumps approve me (who was also my AFF Instructor), but also the DZO and a number of other people with a good deal of jumps tell me I was good to go.

I personally have not disagreed with the "Large Majority" of people by course of my actions. In fact I made every effort to ensure that I was not putting anyone else in jeopardy due to a misguided decision on both my end and the DZO/S&TA's ends as well.

At the end of the day there are just too many scenarios and variables to come up with a rock solid "this is the way it is" as it pertains to camera flight. The fact that I'm located on a small DZ with 3 other jumpers in the sky at any given time makes my flying a camera "safer" as it would compare to me jumping camera at a place like Elsinore with 21 other jumpers out of the Otter. I would have to agree more with the logic of getting more experience in those regards (Which is why I will NOT jump camera when I jump out at larger DZ's)

As for your reason for not jumping with the "100 jump GoPro guy" I can't blame you. We are in a sport where choices and decisions mean life or death. I would want to trust the person I'm jumping with too as much as I could. Always good to err on the side of caution in my opinion. But what can I possibly know...I only have 100+ jumps. So anything logical or rational no matter how true can't be right since I am not D Licensed right?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 1, 2010, 1:04 PM
Post #170 of 294 (1081 views)
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Re: [DARK] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>he has done everything within his power to ensure he is doing things safely

Well, no, he hasn't. Waiting until 200 jumps is a very simple additional precaution he could take. It's easy, free and without risk. But it does require patience, which is tough for a lot of people.

>you have many thousands of jumps and thats great you know what you
>are talking about clearly but so to does the s+ta and the dzo(they may
>even have more jumps and experience then you) so why are you
>automatically correct and they are automatically wrong when you know
>nothing about this guy besides his jump numbers and they know him
>personally and probably have been on the dz for every one of his jumps?

?? I'm not automatically right and they are not automatically wrong.

>why should he take your opinion over theirs?

He hasn't. He took theirs.

>why is your interpretation of the recomendation more valid then theirs?

Because 105 is less than 200 no matter how many words you post.

And here's today's reason why this is still a bad idea:

========================================
I came across this thread because I recently got in a plane without a rig on. I'm fairly new at camera flying (about 75 total and 20 tandem video jumps). A tandem student was already geared up when they decided they wanted video and I was asked to do it. In my rush to get ready and do the ground interview I had everything ready except my rig. I don't know how long it would've taken me to notice (hopefully I would have) but the engine was running before someone came to the plane and told me.
========================================


(This post was edited by billvon on Jul 1, 2010, 1:13 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 1, 2010, 1:11 PM
Post #171 of 294 (1075 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

> I actually give a crap about my own safety as well as the others around me
>which is why I didn't just slap on a camera at 50 jumps and rock n' roll...I
>went through the proper channels and sought the approval of more
>experienced jumpers.

That's great. But I would suggest that their judgment should not be a replacement for yours. Jumping camera at half the _minimum_ recommended number of jumps is a very big decision to make, and I'd think you would have to have a really good reason to ignore such a recommendation. (And "everyone says go for it" is not always such a good reason.)

>And Skygod I am not...

I hope that's true. But one of the characteristics of skygods is that they feel that rules, regulations, recommendations, safety procedures etc don't apply to them because they are special; they're not like everyone else. And it sounds like you've made that decision.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:21 PM
Post #172 of 294 (1063 views)
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Re: [Joellercoaster] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.
Good point, and also keep in mind the S&TA & DZO, especially at a smaller drop zone may have $ considerations possibly compromising the judgements that might be made, in order to keep a local happy and returning....it's happened before.

Of course if 'fastJim' has correct info in his profile he's averaging about 20 jumps a year, & that wouldn't make or break the bank and most drop-zone no matter how small.


yoink

Jul 1, 2010, 1:26 PM
Post #173 of 294 (1056 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.

Of course if 'fastJim' has correct info in his profile he's averaging about 20 jumps a year, & that wouldn't make or break the bank and most drop-zone no matter how small.
Skygod AND uncurrent. What other boxes are there on the form?
Inappropriate canopy? Angelic


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:29 PM
Post #174 of 294 (1051 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I can see that no matter what anyone posts, you will end up simply dissecting what they say and find a way to insult them.

Great job as a moderator. Way to ensure continuity of information within the threads by derailing them into insult sessions...


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:30 PM
Post #175 of 294 (1049 views)
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Re: [yoink] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.

Of course if 'fastJim' has correct info in his profile he's averaging about 20 jumps a year, & that wouldn't make or break the bank and most drop-zone no matter how small.

Skygod AND uncurrent. What other boxes are there on the form?
Inappropriate canopy? Angelic
Blasthandle. Wink


Shakey  (D 33378)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:30 PM
Post #176 of 294 (1367 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's great; you're a Real Skygod, congratulations. At least you're starting early.

The 200 jump thing isn't an average recommendation for most people. It is a MINIMUM recommendation for exceptional people. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his list of maximum canopy loadings; people started reading it and saying "oh, I should be under a 135 at my weight and experience, but I have a 150 - better downsize!" Which of course completely misses the point.

I don't have a horse in this race, I don't fly a camera or have enough experience to give advice about it, but that response, damn. It's only a catchy sig line away from being an automatic post by the DZH Random Forum Post Generator.

I have seen two things repeated many times in the short time I've been reading these forums:
1. Experienced people tell new people to get advice from an Instructor/S&TA/DZO at their DZ who is familiar with them and knows their abilities.
2. Complaints from experienced people about new people listening to advice that supports their viewpoint and ignoring advice that disagrees with their viewpoint.

JimGoFast did exactly what people suggest with respect to getting advice, he got advice and instruction from two experienced people who know him, and then billvon jumps down his throat because the DZO/S&TA's opinion differs from billvon's opinion. I can't help but point out the irony, considering that billvon wrote the sticky at the top of this forum that says "it is imperative that people reading this board do NOT treat the advice given here as authoritative." FWIW - I believe the S&TA in question has more than 10,000 jumps and 20 years experience. Why not defer to the DZO and S&TA who know JimGoFast, are presumably just as interested in safety, and made a decision based on their DZ and their knowledge of JimGoFast's abilities?

Drama aside, I do have an actual question about flying a camera. Many people here refer to a "200 jump recommendation" in the SIM for flying a camera. I have a copy of the 2009-2010 SIM right here and while SIM 6-8(E)(1)(c) does have an experience recommendation, it's not 200 jumps. Did something change? Personally, I think the recommendation in the printed SIM is much more relevant than having 200 jumps.

Blues,

-Shakey


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:33 PM
Post #177 of 294 (1364 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, I can see that no matter what anyone posts, you will end up simply dissecting what they say and find a way to insult them.

Great job as a moderator. Way to ensure continuity of information within the threads by derailing them into insult sessions...

Why would you consider being told something you don't want to hear an insult?

If you would read & follow the BSR's you'd know that a thick skin is required equipment following the issuance of the A license! LaughWink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jul 1, 2010, 5:50 PM)


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:34 PM
Post #178 of 294 (1361 views)
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Re: [yoink] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.

Of course if 'fastJim' has correct info in his profile he's averaging about 20 jumps a year, & that wouldn't make or break the bank and most drop-zone no matter how small.

Well, made my first few AFF jumps back in 05...stopped because of...well lets just say what stopped me is out of the way. Came back and got licensed this April. So from April to current I've made the 100+ jumps. So very current. And not on a canopy too small since I pay attention to my S&TA...

Great example of how some people just assume something based on some stats they see...doesn't explain the whole story...just part of it. I hope I never become that guy that feels he has to belittle someone because of jump numbers...you elitist types are the very ones that drive newer jumpers from sticking with the sport for sure.

Anyhow...back to our topic...Go Pro - Is it a Camera or Not?Sly


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:37 PM
Post #179 of 294 (1356 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Well, I can see that no matter what anyone posts, you will end up simply dissecting what they say and find a way to insult them.

Great job as a moderator. Way to ensure continuity of information within the threads by derailing them into insult sessions...

Why would you consider being told something you don't want to hear an insult?

If you would read & follow the BSR's you know that a thick skin is required equiptment following the issuance of the A license! LaughWink

It was the comment about the "Skygod" thing is all. I just think that was unnecessary. My skin is plenty thick...but my tolerance for morons who are single sided is not...


yoink

Jul 1, 2010, 1:38 PM
Post #180 of 294 (1354 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

It takes pictures. It's a camera. Wink

And yup, 100 jumps from April to now is pretty current, but people form opinions based on the data that YOU provide.

You can't really complain when they do.


The skygod comments come because you sound like every other skygod that comes through here. Right down to the 'recommendations, not rules' argument, the 'I've got an experienced mentor' argument, and the 'description of your 'Mad Skillz' that put you ahead of the curve' argument...

Search around. See how much you sound like many who have come before you.


(This post was edited by yoink on Jul 1, 2010, 1:42 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 1, 2010, 1:39 PM
Post #181 of 294 (1351 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Well, I can see that no matter what anyone posts, you will end up
>simply dissecting what they say and find a way to insult them.

Sorry you took it as an insult. But I'm not going to slap people on the back and say "good for you! Great decision, go for it."

I think your decision is a mistake. (And make no bones about it, it is YOUR decision; saying other people told you it was OK does not change that fact.) I can't stop you from doing whatever you want to do; all I can do is give advice. You are free to ignore it completely. If you think that my intention is to insult you rather than keep you from getting hurt, then fine; disregard what I said because I'm an asshole, or an evil power-hungry moderator or whatever.

I hope that when you hear other people say the same thing often enough, though, that it will at least make you stop and think. And if it does, then this thread will have served its purpose.


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:45 PM
Post #182 of 294 (1341 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

haha...Calling someone a Skygod is pretty much an insult so yeah. I was insulted by that.

In terms of your opinions, I absolutely agree with most of it. There's a balance though between the decision making process as it pertains to the recommendations which by definition leaves room for various factors; hence the fact that they are "recommendations". If you read what I wrote, I said I sought the approval of my S&TA and DZO...This is because I had already made my decision which to clarify, I make no bones about...

We have people at the DZ that believe camera flight shouldn't be done until 500 jumps...we have people on the other end of the spectrum...then we have smart people who look at the recommendation of the USPA and the individual and weigh the cost based on the person...

Until USPA comes out and says "No Camera flight until minimum 200 Jumps", then it will be nothing more than opinions and there are so many sides to support both pro and con for waiting or not waiting. I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation.


Heatmiser  (C License)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #183 of 294 (1334 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nah, Skygod isn't much of an insult. If he had said, "You're a stoopid mutha fucka, and need to pull your head outa your ass," that would have been an insult. Tongue If he had, he would have to tell himself "This is your one warning" and then he woud have argued with himself, and summarily banned himself from this site for a week.Laugh


(This post was edited by Heatmiser on Jul 1, 2010, 1:50 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 1:51 PM
Post #184 of 294 (1330 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

...you elitist types are the very ones that drive newer jumpers from sticking with the sport for sure.
It's by design, keeps the lines short at manifest. Angelic


And hey n00b, who are YOU to be telling US, who have been around forever... the way to push newer jumpers from the sport?

Hell, I've been discouraging skydivers from jumping since, well since before you ever HEARD of gravity! ...TongueSly

Oh and....yeah it's a camera. Blush


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jul 1, 2010, 2:00 PM)


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 1, 2010, 2:00 PM
Post #185 of 294 (1319 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

haha...judging by your profile pic I could tell you were a dusty old fart Laugh


(This post was edited by JimGoFast on Jul 1, 2010, 2:00 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 2:06 PM
Post #186 of 294 (1307 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
haha...judging by your profile pic I could tell you were a dusty old fart Laugh

That's CRUSTY old fart to YOU kid! Wink


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jul 1, 2010, 2:11 PM
Post #187 of 294 (1303 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're busting the recommended minimum, but with the advice and coaching of locals. Rather than boasting of it (which is really what your original post was doing), and reiterating the "it's only a recommendation" mantra (which has been used to justify countless risky decisions) just do your thing, be careful, and be competent.

Eventually you'll be part of the basis of knowledge, either because you hurt yourself or because you didn't. You're not gaining that much in terms of camera competence, because instead of focusing on the freefall skills that will make you able to take really kickass pictures, you're splitting your focus. But that's your decision.

The one other thing I'd strongly advise is that since you're introducing a complicating factor (i.e. a camera), that you not introduce any others (like smaller canopy, swooping, aggressive advancement on freeflying, etc) until the camera has been a background skill for 100 jumps. Because by still being in a mode where you're learning life-saving skills, you really, really want to be able to focus on them.

Executing is not just being able to cut away and pull your reserve. It's stuff like the near incident in the latest "Cypres" thread in Incidents. Having thought through enough that you can take in the weird stuff and still save yourself. And time really is involved in that. I'll bet you're a better driver than you were when you first got your license. And I'll bet that thought you were a perfectly fine driver when you got your driver's license.

It's a complex skill, give it respect. Because it doesn't respect you. Skills never do, and neither does the ground.

Wendy P.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on Jul 1, 2010, 2:12 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 3:13 PM
Post #188 of 294 (1275 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

It's a complex skill, give it respect. Because it doesn't respect you. Skills never do, and neither does the ground.

Wendy P.
And that makes your pertinent sig line even more applicable !


FastJim~ don't take those posts to you as insulting or elitist, believe me when I say they are not meant to be...no one wants you to quit OR get hurt.

Try to understand that when you have been around this wonderful sport long enough, you too will see that same type of argument time & again...sometimes it's a moot point, sometimes there is real tragedy involved.

It's just very frustrating to see what is potentially the 'same mistake' made time & again...we often wish we could fire-wire the experiences time and jump numbers have given us, the sometimes horrific images that result from foreseeable circumstance & simple error.

After enough time you will come to realize that pushing the 'recommended' limits in any area, really just isn't worth the risk.

You seem like a smart enough guy with a great fist name, keep gathering and assessing information & opinions but keep it at the forefront of your decision making that YOU alone are responsible for what you do and thus also the consequences.

NOTHING in skydiving is worth getting broken up over or even dead doing.

Will a Go-Pro end your skydiving career by jumping it prior to the 'official' recommendation?

Hopefully not, maybe you ARE that good, maybe you're lucky...

I did my very first demonstration jump into a stadium on a round parachute with a whole 22 jumps under my belt.

The club members that were my mentors at the time, liked me & respected my skills and gave me the okay.

I pulled it off and thought I was the hot shit skydiver of the century.
Looking back after I became more experienced, I realized that the only thing 'hot-shit' had to do with it, is how far above my head I was in it... trying something like that! Crazy

Take small steps, don't rush anything...it's really not a practical approach.

For the 1st ten years I was jumping I had a lot more luck than skills...seeing friends with much higher skills who's luck ran out forced a re evaluation regarding some of the things I was doing.

Pushing the envelope is NOT a good habit to get into and has it's costs, rarely is the benefit worth that cost...ya got plenty of time, use the 'envelope' as a guide not a barrier...trust me, in 30 years you'll be glad you did! Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jul 1, 2010, 7:57 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 3:20 PM
Post #189 of 294 (1271 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...you elitist types are the very ones that drive newer jumpers from sticking with the sport for sure.

It's by design, keeps the lines short at manifest. Angelic


And hey n00b, who are YOU to be telling US, who have been around forever... the way to push newer jumpers from the sport?

Hell, I've been discouraging skydivers from jumping since, well since before you ever HEARD of gravity! ...TongueSly

Oh and....yeah it's a camera. Blush
Spaceland should pick up a system like StartSkydiving has, FastSlots... I swipe my card, and anyone else thats jumping and manifest us for a load at several places on the dz...

I think you can even do it online now...


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jul 1, 2010, 3:37 PM
Post #190 of 294 (1260 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Until USPA comes out and says "No Camera flight until minimum 200 Jumps", then it will be nothing more than opinions....

I am very sure this will be clarified at the BOD meeting this month!


Craig Stapleton,
Pacific Regional Diector


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 1, 2010, 4:48 PM
Post #191 of 294 (1237 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Looking back after I became more experienced, I realized that the only
>thing 'hot-shit' had to do with it, is how far above my head I was in it...

Yep.

One of my first camera jumps was a belly mount camera on a bigway. I had well over 1000 jumps at the time, and although it was a fairly high pressure dive, I figured it was a no-brainer. Just turn it on and forget it, right?

Well, had a collision on that jump, my first in a while. Kate came by, asked what was going on, and said 'get rid of the camera.' 'But - but - it's not distracting me, I just turn it on and . . .' 'Get rid of the camera,' she said. I did and no more collisions.

Another one of my first camera jumps was a camera I had built into an FP1 helmet. It was a tiny camera mounted in the vent hole. So small that there was no snag hazard whatsoever, so it was perfectly safe, right?

Did a jump filming a 4-way. They broke off, I deployed. On opening I looked up at my canopy thinking "cool video." Then after opening I looked in front of me to see another Sabre headed straight at me. Avoided it fortunately.

And on both of those I would have sworn up and down that the camera wasn't distracting me, that it wasn't in the way, that I wouldn't do anything stupid. I had my AFF rating at the time, was starting to do bigways and RW, and everyone thought I could handle the whole camera thing beforehand.

Now I have ~ 6000 jumps, and after all this time I realize that cameras DO distract me. Even though I've done over 500 of them, and even though it's become almost automatic. Gear checks change, behavior in the airplane changes, how I exit changes, how I protect myself during collisions changes, how I deploy changes, emergency procedures change, how I scan for canopies flying back changes.

Of course if you had told me back then "make a few more jumps doing X before you put that camera on your head" I would have listed all the reasons they were wrong, they're not a distraction, I am perfectly capable of doing that. Behaving sorta skygoddish, in other words. Fortunately I survived that phase.

It's creepy to see so many people repeating the mistakes that others have made, but with less and less experience. People jumping Stilettos and Samurais as beginner canopies. People doing video with under 100 jumps. There are these bags full of luck, skill, experience and risk that we all have to juggle, and it seems like more and more often, people are hoping their full luck bag is going to compensate for their light experience bag, or that their skill bag was somehow filled up just because they've made 100 jumps. Or that that risk bag isn't really all that full, anyway.

And hopefully most people will survive the experience unscathed, or at most with a "learning experience." But that seems like an awful lot to ask of that bag of luck.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 4:55 PM
Post #192 of 294 (1233 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation.

It's not a recommendation. It's a BSR.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 1, 2010, 5:26 PM
Post #193 of 294 (1226 views)
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In reply to:

It was the comment about the "Skygod" thing is all. I just think that was unnecessary. My skin is plenty thick...but my tolerance for morons who are single sided is not...

I've been following this thread... good reading. I have a question for you. You say you have the blessing of the S&TA, DZO, and others?? I'd like to hear from them?? Did they OK your camera jumps or say something like ....

"For the 12th time, you need 200 jumps, but, if you insist on jumping that damn go pro, go ahead and kill yourself!" There is a difference!

Based on your posts, I just have my suspicions. I’m no sky god and certainly no expert, I just see a pattern here. For your sake and the jumpers around you, I hope your version of the story is accurate. If it is, find a good camera flier and learn from them. Blues!!

Oh... I love the whole slam Twardo part above!!ShockedShocked Excellent!


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Jul 1, 2010, 5:27 PM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 1, 2010, 5:44 PM
Post #194 of 294 (1217 views)
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Quote:
I love the whole slam Twardo part above!!

I must step up here.... We really should have a rule against slamming Twardo... I mean, he's so frail at his age, we'll break him!


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 5:48 PM
Post #195 of 294 (1215 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I love the whole slam Twardo part above!!

I must step up here.... We really should have a rule against slamming Twardo... I mean, he's so frail at his age, we'll break him!

Wait, what? Blush


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 6:36 PM
Post #196 of 294 (1197 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation.

It's not a recommendation. It's a BSR.

SIM
6-9: Wing suit recommendations

I dont see it listed in the BSRs


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 1, 2010, 6:36 PM
Post #197 of 294 (1197 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation.

There is no wingsuit flight recommendation.
It's a BSR.Tongue

Why?
Because a number of hotshots (including one that jumped at your DZ occasionally) felt they could deal with ignoring the recommendations for wingsuits.
He's now dead.
After a few very "capable, I've talked to my S&TA or very experienced instructors" died doing wingsuit jumps with their mad skillz, it became a BSR.

BTW, comparing a 182 DZ like Star to Elsinore....that's even further off than using the coach rating as an excuse for being "camera-capable." A lot of people that go into the coach course come out significantly better skydivers, simply because they're receiving very specific, direct instruction. However, they're still not "awesome, incredible, and there" yet. Not at 100 jumps.

You have 2X the experience at 200 than you do at 100 jumps, no matter how you slice it.
Tandem manufacturers require 500 jumps for camera flyers to jump with tandems. To jump with Coaches or AFFI's, USPA recommends a minimum of 300 group jumps, 50 camera jumps on the canopy you're jumping for the Coach and AFF jumps.

At 100 jumps, there simply is _no way_ you've developed the psycho-neuralmuscular abilities that being a camera flyer more or less demands.
At 200 jumps, you're barely approaching the threshold of the door that is opening.

Sure, at a dropzone like yours, things are a little more loose than at most DZ's. That doesn't make them safe.

The reason they're recommendations vs requirements aren't so they're open to interpretation. Pick up the phone, call your RD or better yet, send an email to your ND's and ask why. It has a lot more to do with living in litigious America than it does with wanting to have loosely defined standards.

[edited to respond to theonlyski]
The BSR was implemented at the last BOD meeting. The new SIM doesn't publish for a couple more months. That's the problem with paper; takes a while for it to catch up.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jul 1, 2010, 6:38 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 6:49 PM
Post #198 of 294 (1186 views)
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A DZO may do as they like, but I'd argue a USPA S&TA or Instructor who does not follow the recommendations published is showing weak judgement, and is opening themselves (and the organization)to increased liability.

But that's just my opinion and it's widely know that I'm an asshole.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 1, 2010, 6:59 PM
Post #199 of 294 (1176 views)
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Yeah... your absolutely right, that you can't be right. If you disagree with up number jumpers some of them are quick to just insult you, usually by calling you a 'SkyGod' with 'MadSkillz' and telling you that you think you are hot shit, have a bad attitude and don't want to learn etc... it is just their MO. All reasonable debate is usually out the door at that point because the other up jumpers that also think and respond that way will jump in and confirm that you are all of those things, and my favorite, tell you that, "you don't even know what you don't know." Crazy

When people jump to insults it's because they don't have anything better to say. Just look back on this and any other thread and see who these guys are... it's usually the same ones.

Twardo may get a pass cause he has some of the best stories I've read, never met him but he reminds me of those 'Dos Equis most interesting guy' commercials. Not to mention... he is crusty old, and may or may not have dementia...TongueLaughLaugh


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 7:03 PM
Post #200 of 294 (1172 views)
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In reply to:
[edited to respond to theonlyski]
The BSR was implemented at the last BOD meeting. The new SIM doesn't publish for a couple more months. That's the problem with paper; takes a while for it to catch up.

You would think they could edit the online version pretty easily though...Crazy


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 1, 2010, 7:07 PM
Post #201 of 294 (1190 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
[edited to respond to theonlyski]
The BSR was implemented at the last BOD meeting. The new SIM doesn't publish for a couple more months. That's the problem with paper; takes a while for it to catch up.

You would think they could edit the online version pretty easily though...Crazy

Why bother editing one line when the entire book is under review, re-write, and approval, due to be accepted in two weeks at the Summer Board meeting?
It's on the USPA site and has been since February. Letters in Parachutist have been written, and it was in the USPA newsletter.

In other words, the info is/has been out there since the week after it was implemented.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 1, 2010, 7:25 PM
Post #202 of 294 (1183 views)
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In reply to:

And here's today's reason why this is still a bad idea:

========================================
I came across this thread because I recently got in a plane without a rig on. I'm fairly new at camera flying (about 75 total and 20 tandem video jumps). A tandem student was already geared up when they decided they wanted video and I was asked to do it. In my rush to get ready and do the ground interview I had everything ready except my rig. I don't know how long it would've taken me to notice (hopefully I would have) but the engine was running before someone came to the plane and told me.
========================================

That is BAD!!!!! I can see where that would be more likely to happen with an actual camera flier working tandem vids than an avg fun jumper. I have seen the camera fliers at my dz get really busy and they are literally landing, grabbing a packed rig out of the trailer, and jumping right on the next load. Sometimes the TI may even be holding a rig for them in the plane. Point is some of them are used to climbing into the plane without their rig already on their back. If a fun jumper is so easily distracted by something like a GoPro as to do the same thing they should absolutely never jump with one again.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 1, 2010, 7:42 PM
Post #203 of 294 (1176 views)
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In reply to:
Yeah... your absolutely right, that you can't be right. If you disagree with up number jumpers some of them are quick to just insult you, usually by calling you a 'SkyGod' with 'MadSkillz' and telling you that you think you are hot shit, have a bad attitude and don't want to learn etc... it is just their MO.

no one from my quarter has called you names nor insulted you.
OTOH;
~you've read reasonable arguments from very experienced people, yet you disregard anything they have to say (that's insulting as well).
~You've made your own potentially eggregious errors in cutting away your camera helmet and not pulling your reserve handle in a malfunction/cutaway scenario (wow!)
~You've made a very flawed statement about "clearing airspace." (Wow! again)
~There is a long list of incidents, potential incidents, major and minor errors that come from a broad spectrum of skydivers in your particular class.

Yet you've essentially tossed all that off and said "none of that applies to me, because I'm more capable than others at my experience level."
One cannot have a reasonable debate with a brick wall.
Ask Skittles, TunaSalad, or several others here; I'm HAPPY AS HELL to take you out on training jumps while you wear a camera with me. And you'll perhaps recognize why you aren't ready. But I'm _always_ willing to teach, learn, and help others the way I've been taught and helped along the way.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jul 1, 2010, 7:53 PM)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 1, 2010, 8:07 PM
Post #204 of 294 (1167 views)
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In reply to:
~You've made your own potentially eggregious error in cutting away your camera helmet and not pulling your reserve handle in a malfunction/cutaway scenario (wow!)

I did what I felt was right at the time... and explain my thought process in that thread. I'm happy to go back there and continue to discuss it. As long as you or anyone else reads through the entire thread first so it's not a cut and paste discussion..

In reply to:
~You've made a very flawed statement about "clearing airspace." (Wow! again)

So I've been told... but no one has managed to tell me why. Crazy In fact, the responses I've got are essentially, 'Wow did you just ask that... you need to stop jumping now.' and 'you don't know what you don't even know, and ' You've made a very flawed statement about "clearing airspace." (Wow! again). Pretty much makes my point about how you guys always have the "right" answers.

In reply to:
~There is a long list of incidents, potential incidents, major and minor errors that come from a broad spectrum of skydivers in your particular class.
Yet you've essentially tossed all that off and said "none of that applies to me, because I'm more capable than others at my experience level."

Save your words for your own mouth.

In reply to:
One cannot have a reasonable debate with a brick wall.
Ask Skittles, TunaSalad, or several others here; I'm HAPPY AS HELL to take you out on training jumps while you wear a camera with me. And you'll perhaps recognize why you aren't ready. But I'm _always_ willing to teach, learn, and help others the way I've been taught and helped along the way.

I have stood my ground on some issues and admitted defeat on others... but what ever makes you feel better about your 'constructive criticism'.

I'm always happy to learn... whether it's from you, my dz instructors, my friends, a noob fresh off AFF, it doesn't matter, any experience level can have something valuable to add.


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Jul 1, 2010, 8:17 PM)


DARK  (B 31685)

Jul 1, 2010, 8:14 PM
Post #205 of 294 (1159 views)
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good debate guys keep it up

i pretty much agree with everyone since my last post so not much to say really


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Jul 1, 2010, 8:50 PM
Post #206 of 294 (1140 views)
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In reply to:
(directed to DSE)
Quote:
I have stood my ground on some issues and admitted defeat on others... but what ever makes you feel better about your 'constructive criticism'.


@DSE

I know you don't take that personally, Douglas, as this guy is a jackass to everyone! Shocked Angelic

Hopefully he'll grow enough to one day be properly embarrassed by the stuff he's been saying in these threads. Unimpressed


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 1, 2010, 9:34 PM
Post #207 of 294 (1125 views)
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In reply to:
...and may or may not have dementia...

That always cracks me up - the tendency for people to say, "may or may not". Of course that is true, anyone may or may not be anything! LaughWink


timmyfitz  (D License)

Jul 2, 2010, 6:56 AM
Post #208 of 294 (1068 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
~You've made your own potentially eggregious error in cutting away your camera helmet and not pulling your reserve handle in a malfunction/cutaway scenario (wow!)

I did what I felt was right at the time

With more experience you would not only know that this was a bad decision but it would have also NOT felt right. It worked out for you in this instance but getting away with making a bad decision does not make it right.


Heatmiser  (C License)

Jul 2, 2010, 8:16 AM
Post #209 of 294 (1039 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
~You've made your own potentially eggregious error in cutting away your camera helmet and not pulling your reserve handle in a malfunction/cutaway scenario (wow!)

I did what I felt was right at the time... and explain my thought process in that thread. I'm happy to go back there and continue to discuss it. As long as you or anyone else reads through the entire thread first so it's not a cut and paste discussion..

In reply to:
~You've made a very flawed statement about "clearing airspace." (Wow! again)

So I've been told... but no one has managed to tell me why. Crazy In fact, the responses I've got are essentially, 'Wow did you just ask that... you need to stop jumping now.' and 'you don't know what you don't even know, and ' You've made a very flawed statement about "clearing airspace." (Wow! again). Pretty much makes my point about how you guys always have the "right" answers.

In reply to:
~There is a long list of incidents, potential incidents, major and minor errors that come from a broad spectrum of skydivers in your particular class.
Yet you've essentially tossed all that off and said "none of that applies to me, because I'm more capable than others at my experience level."

Save your words for your own mouth.

In reply to:
One cannot have a reasonable debate with a brick wall.
Ask Skittles, TunaSalad, or several others here; I'm HAPPY AS HELL to take you out on training jumps while you wear a camera with me. And you'll perhaps recognize why you aren't ready. But I'm _always_ willing to teach, learn, and help others the way I've been taught and helped along the way.

I have stood my ground on some issues and admitted defeat on others... but what ever makes you feel better about your 'constructive criticism'.

I'm always happy to learn... whether it's from you, my dz instructors, my friends, a noob fresh off AFF, it doesn't matter, any experience level can have something valuable to add.

Actually, I did respond to what you said here. I'm neither a skygod, nor am I interested in bashing you. Clearing your airspace, if possible is a good idea, and it is the responsibility of the High Man to continue to track away and create separation. The reason is simple, the low man is closer to the ground. The low man may be an A license jumper, (who is required to have pack opening by 3000 feet, to allow time to deal with malfunctions). I'm sorry if you didn't say that the high man should pitch to create vertical separation if a collision is imminent, either it was you, or the person you were quoting. In the event it was you, here was my response, "1st and foremost, If you're the high guy at 3000 feet and a collision is imminent, you don't immediately pitch to gain "vertical separation." The second your PC comes out, you've lost all directional control. If you snivel, and the low guy has a quicker opening, then you have a decent chance at a canopy collision. High man is the one that continues to track away and opens lower." Wink


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 2, 2010, 8:22 AM
Post #210 of 294 (1035 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I love the whole slam Twardo part above!!

I must step up here.... We really should have a rule against slamming Twardo... I mean, he's so frail at his age, we'll break him!

"frail", much like beef jerky is frail


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 2, 2010, 8:54 AM
Post #211 of 294 (1028 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

> If a fun jumper is so easily distracted by something like a GoPro as to
>do the same thing they should absolutely never jump with one again.

If they do indeed ever do that, they are guaranteed to never jump with one again. Problem is you don't get a second chance.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 2, 2010, 9:52 AM
Post #212 of 294 (1005 views)
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In reply to:
High man is the one that continues to track away and opens lower. Wink


I agree...

In DSE's statement he says, "The relative worker who was nearly hit had no idea another person was that close until he heard a canopy opening just below and to his side."

I know the camera guy was in the wrong. All I'm saying is regardless of being high, low or otherwise every jumper should be as aware of their own airspace as possible at pull time.

I did say that the high guy may want to consider a quick pitch, I see the flaws in that statement... and agree with you that it would be better to track for separation.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 2, 2010, 11:05 AM
Post #213 of 294 (984 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
High man is the one that continues to track away and opens lower. Wink


I agree...

In DSE's statement he says, "The relative worker who was nearly hit had no idea another person was that close until he heard a canopy opening just below and to his side."

I know the camera guy was in the wrong. All I'm saying is regardless of being high, low or otherwise every jumper should be as aware of their own airspace as possible at pull time.

I did say that the high guy may want to consider a quick pitch, I see the flaws in that statement... and agree with you that it would be better to track for separation.

Now you're contradicting your previous post (which is good, it means maybe you did learn something).

"camera guy" (who was actually freeflying, using the camera to film his heading), wasn't tracking. Beginning freeflyers often slide all around the sky ergo; "tracking." He was asked to wait 7-10 seconds. Video shows he waited 4.

The "RW" guy was on a rating evaluation skydive. He did everything (including tracking in the correct direction) correctly in the skydive. There is no possible way he could have "cleared his airspace" as you said was our problem.


porpoishead  (B 30018)

Jul 2, 2010, 1:41 PM
Post #214 of 294 (941 views)
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Quote:
Until USPA comes out and says "No Camera flight until minimum 200 Jumps", then it will be nothing more than opinions and there are so many sides to support both pro and con for waiting or not waiting. I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation.

so many sides?? WTF does that mean??how many sides are there exactly?? you either agree or disagree sounds like one or the other......waiting or not waiting....uh that sounds like two sides.....thats sooo many i had to take my shoes off to countTongue

and what exactly are the pros for not waiting until a minumum recomendation to ensure you are familiar with your life saving equipment before introducing other potential hazzards......especially a fucking goofy ass camera

anybody???? bueller???


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 2, 2010, 2:39 PM
Post #215 of 294 (923 views)
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and what exactly are the pros for not waiting until a minimum recommendation to ensure you are familiar with your life saving equipment before introducing other potential hazards......especially a fucking goofy ass camera

That one's simple....ya get some really cool HERO videos that you can show all the kids on the bus, and maybe get laid! Tongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 2, 2010, 2:46 PM
Post #216 of 294 (917 views)
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>and what exactly are the pros for not waiting until a minumum recomendation . . .

Nothing to post on Youtube. Without video you might as well not exist on-line.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 2, 2010, 2:47 PM
Post #217 of 294 (917 views)
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In reply to:
That one's simple....ya get some really cool HERO videos that you can show all the kids on the bus, and maybe get laid! Tongue

We've all done stupid stuff to get laid (atleast the guys here).

You gotta ask yourself something, is the juice worth the squeeze?


porpoishead  (B 30018)

Jul 2, 2010, 2:52 PM
Post #218 of 294 (914 views)
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stylin!!! i love getting laid ...i might just go get one of those go-stupids and hang it off my nuts like a disco ball whilst getting laid....would provide much more entertaining footage im sure


JimGoFast  (A 57669)

Jul 2, 2010, 3:11 PM
Post #219 of 294 (901 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
Until USPA comes out and says "No Camera flight until minimum 200 Jumps", then it will be nothing more than opinions and there are so many sides to support both pro and con for waiting or not waiting. I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation.

so many sides?? WTF does that mean??how many sides are there exactly?? you either agree or disagree sounds like one or the other......waiting or not waiting....uh that sounds like two sides.....thats sooo many i had to take my shoes off to countTongue

and what exactly are the pros for not waiting until a minumum recomendation to ensure you are familiar with your life saving equipment before introducing other potential hazzards......especially a fucking goofy ass camera

anybody???? bueller???

Yeah that does read lame...I meant to say there are so many points to support both pros and cons...


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 2, 2010, 3:18 PM
Post #220 of 294 (896 views)
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In reply to:

...and what exactly are the pros for not waiting until a minumum recomendation to ensure you are familiar with your life saving equipment before introducing other potential hazzards......especially a fucking goofy ass camera

anybody???? bueller???

Yeah that does read lame...I meant to say there are so many points to support both pros and cons...
What exactly are the arguments for ignoring the recommendations?

And who, besides those who wish to ignore them, are making those points?


porpoishead  (B 30018)

Jul 2, 2010, 3:23 PM
Post #221 of 294 (899 views)
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fair enough bud

so like joe said whats the pros for disregarding a recommendation to have a bit of experience with your basic equipment before introducing other potential hazzards

that reads kinda lame too....im just saying


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 2, 2010, 4:05 PM
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In reply to:
stylin!!! i love getting laid ...i might just go get one of those go-stupids and hang it off my nuts like a disco ball whilst getting laid....would provide much more entertaining footage im sure

Don't do it...I don't wanna see ya 'Go In'! AngelicTongue


porpoishead  (B 30018)

Jul 2, 2010, 4:15 PM
Post #223 of 294 (869 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
stylin!!! i love getting laid ...i might just go get one of those go-stupids and hang it off my nuts like a disco ball whilst getting laid....would provide much more entertaining footage im sure

Don't do it...I don't wanna see ya 'Go In'! AngelicTongue

thats some bullshit!! why you cockblocking T ?? Mad

Laugh


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 6, 2010, 10:42 AM
Post #224 of 294 (750 views)
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And yet another incident over the weekend involving a small format camera and a low time jumper.
Keep those stories comin' folks.
JimGoFast; I'm curious which instructors at your DZ are saying you're good with jumping a camera?


Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Jul 6, 2010, 12:44 PM
Post #225 of 294 (698 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you ruling out the fact that..

A: Shit does happen, and has always been happening to these jumpers in the 1-200 jump range regardless of a camera?

B: The camera played a direct role in what happened and would absolutely not have happened if the camera was not present?

Just because a teen gets in a car wreck does not mean a cell phone caused ALL the wrecks happening to teens because one just happened to be in the car at that time, teens have been getting in car wrecks for years.....BUT factors in some no argument there

I'm not pushing for anyone jumping a camera before 200. I just know you seem to be heading the torch and pitchfork mob. Just wondering how you are analyzing things and if you are padding the "incident list" because you feel so strongly about the subject.

Just don't want everyone who gets a stubbed toe, or anything that could have happened to anyone getting on your "camera list" when it would have happened to anyone regardless if a camera was strapped to their head or not.

I'm all for safety(part of my job in the fire service) and don't want to see ANYONE on ANY "list", so I agree with the cause, but would hate to see fake inflated reports.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 6, 2010, 12:55 PM
Post #226 of 294 (1300 views)
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In reply to:
Are you ruling out the fact that..

A: Shit does happen, and has always been happening to these jumpers in the 1-200 jump range regardless of a camera?

B: The camera played a direct role in what happened and would absolutely not have happened if the camera was not present?

Just because a teen gets in a car wreck does not mean a cell phone caused ALL the wrecks happening to teens because one just happened to be in the car at that time, teens have been getting in car wrecks for years.....BUT factors in some no argument there

I'm not pushing for anyone jumping a camera before 200. I just know you seem to be heading the torch and pitchfork mob. Just wondering how you are analyzing things and if you are padding the "incident list" because you feel so strongly about the subject.

Just don't want everyone who gets a stubbed toe, or anything that could have happened to anyone getting on your "camera list" when it would have happened to anyone regardless if a camera was strapped to their head or not.

I'm all for safety(part of my job in the fire service) and don't want to see ANYONE on ANY "list", so I agree with the cause, but would hate to see fake inflated reports.

If a teen is in a car wreck and an open cell phone is found on the floor of the car, there is no way to absolutely rule in or out, that the cell phone played a role.

Read back in the past years of all the guys that thought small canopies weren't playing much of a role in the increase in low turn incidents. There is still no way to absolutely rule that these guys that died wouldn't have hooked it in under a 210 either.

Usually, where there is smoke there is fire, no?


Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Jul 6, 2010, 1:33 PM
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If the person died in a car accident then yes a cell phone on the floor might not show directly what happened.

Not all car wrecks, and thankfully all camera incidents end in a fatality, in which case we can question the jumper or jumpers and review what happened. God forbid even in a fatality just like checking the cell phone record to see if the phone was in use at the time, we can review the footage, which might clearly show the camera had no play whatsoever in the incident.

If a riser breaking near the line attachments or some other gear failure on rented gear at parts they could not do a gear check on, or someone violating the jumpers airspace and hitting them in freefall, and If they do their eps fine, or recover from the mid air strike without incident would you put them in their list?

If video evidence or the own jumpers words show they stumbled through their EP like that one guy did in removing his helmet before cutaway, or they were trying to get video of the guy that hit them before getting stable again, then fine put them on your list. I don't want to get in any big thing with you, i'm in on your cause, just want good numbers to back it up.


Quote:
Read back in the past years of all the guys that thought small canopies weren't playing much of a role in the increase in low turn incidents. There is still no way to absolutely rule that these guys that died wouldn't have hooked it in under a 210 either.
Exactly

Quote:
Usually, where there is smoke there is fire, no?

No where there is smoke there is pyrolysis and you are trying to catch it before it starts a fire:)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 6, 2010, 1:43 PM
Post #228 of 294 (1271 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Just because a teen gets in a car wreck does not mean a cell phone
>caused ALL the wrecks happening to teens because one just happened to
>be in the car at that time.

Agreed. But:

1) If he recently got a cellphone and
2) he was texting someone while driving and
3) other people noticed him distracted by it and
4) he ignored people who told him not to text and drive since he was a superior driver

odds are that it did play a role. Heck, if only two of those factors were there, odds are pretty high that it played a role.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 6, 2010, 3:53 PM
Post #229 of 294 (1253 views)
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In reply to:
And yet another incident over the weekend involving a small format camera and a low time jumper.
Keep those stories comin' folks.
JimGoFast; I'm curious which instructors at your DZ are saying you're good with jumping a camera?

Where can we find all of these incidents involving small format cameras you and others say are compiled? Can you post a link?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 6, 2010, 4:39 PM
Post #230 of 294 (1237 views)
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it's been posted for a coupla weeks now.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 6, 2010, 4:47 PM
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In reply to:
it's been posted for a coupla weeks now.

That's nice.... How about a link? Please.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 6, 2010, 4:51 PM
Post #232 of 294 (1225 views)
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Found It... Thanks anyway. Wink


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 6, 2010, 5:12 PM
Post #233 of 294 (1213 views)
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Looks like you added a bit of fiction for dramatic effect. Unsure

On the plus side it will get people thinking about the risks before they jump one, or if they already are.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 6, 2010, 5:14 PM
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In reply to:
Found It... Thanks anyway. Wink

I think that was kinda the point Wink


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jul 6, 2010, 5:16 PM
Post #235 of 294 (1204 views)
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 Chad,

It is a fact that teenagers have been wrecking cars long before they were on cell phones. I totaled a half dozen or so myself before the age of 20 and was 22 when purchasing my first cell phone.

It is also a fact that distractive driving is dangerous and even more so for the inexperienced driver. While cell phones may not be causing all of the teen age wrecks, they are a distraction. It is a strong fact that if we toke those phones away, there would be no more cell phone induced teen age wrecks, simply as that.

Anything we can do to reduce the number of safety related incidents for novice jumpers is a good thing. Anything we can do to increase the amount of time novice jumpers are spending learning basic survival skills is also a great thing. Thinking about your camera takes time away from what you should be learning.

In my opinion, any incident that happens with a camera on a skydiver’s head, the camera is a factor, even if not the leading factor. Notice I said nothing about jump numbers here. If you have a riser break I will bet most anything that the way you look, the direction you tilt your head, the thoughts that rush through you mind, will all be affected by whether there is a camera on your head or not. So even if the camera was not a factor in the cause, it will be in the reaction. 99.99% of the time.

So just like teens and cell phones, taking the cameras away from the sub 200 skydivers may not eliminate all their incidents, but it will for a fact eliminate the camera related ones.

The above may not have needed to be said for you have agreed and said "I’m in on your cause". You also said "just want good numbers to back it up." which I hope I have expressed above that in my opinion all camera related numbers are good numbers to back it up.

Further it should be noted that DSE has put forth a lot of effort to make the video flyers of our sport more informed and more safe. I do not believe that he would skew any list to, nor does he have the need to.

Hope to see you soon at the DZ.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 6, 2010, 5:19 PM
Post #236 of 294 (1199 views)
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Other than a couple, the "incidents" are pasted from PM's.
Yours is culled straight from your own thread. Yours was just too easy.
"I know I ignored the recommendations, I had a cutaway and my mad skillz saved me. I'm still jumpin' a camera because I've proven I gots the skillz. I agree, not everyone is as heads-up as me."

You don't think it's dramatic that you didn't pull your reserve handle in a cutaway scenario?
Maybe a revisit to an FJC is in order.
Or you could heed DiabloPilot's advice found earlier in this thread.
Now _that_ is dramatic. Tongue (but probably very sound advice).


(This post was edited by DSE on Jul 6, 2010, 5:21 PM)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jul 6, 2010, 6:03 PM
Post #237 of 294 (1175 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Other than a couple, the "incidents" are pasted from PM's.
Yours is culled straight from your own thread. Yours was just too easy.
"I know I ignored the recommendations, I had a cutaway and my mad skillz saved me. I'm still jumpin' a camera because I've proven I gots the skillz. I agree, not everyone is as heads-up as me."

Again a bunch of fiction... Don't claim to "quote" me like you just did above when those are not my words and I haven't displayed such attitude. I have never claimed to have any "mad skillz" or insinuated as such, but you guys love to tell people that's what they think of themselves Unsure. Also, I have not jumped with a camera since that incident... (other than in your fictional stories anyway). Crazy

In reply to:
You don't think it's dramatic that you didn't pull your reserve handle in a cutaway scenario?

This was discussed in the thread. SkyHook beat me... I knew SkyHook beat me... I was under a reserve..

I don't mind sharing that incident with anyone, in fact I encourage people to read it as they can/may learn from it. All I ask is that you keep your own dramatic twists out of it.


Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Jul 6, 2010, 6:04 PM
Post #238 of 294 (1172 views)
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I agree, it's probably just the internet, and there being no true way to visibly and audibly hear and see the way people feel and talk about a subject, but sometimes it feels like were in the speakers corner when one person is always coming out with such strong feelings against one subject all over the place.

Its hard to tell if they really care and are just passionate about a topic(which is a great one), or they are just being a sky god trying to down the ones with less jumpers(which again is warranted in this case)

While at a scene I have been taught and go through risk analysis that could help explain to people whats going on with the camera issue.

1. Identify the hazard?
Could be snag, or inattentiveness to the skydive etc

2. What is the probability/frequency this will occur?
Occasional on every jump

3. What would the potential outcome be?
Loss of awareness, issues with EP, etc. etc.

4. What harm/damage would occur and its severity?
Serious to catastrophic

5. Can this be managed or prevented?
Yes proper experience, gear, training, currency, etc

6. Analise the risk act and reevaluate frequently
By looking at this there is a chance it could happen on any
jump, the outcome could be severe, the only way to
MITIGATE(not eliminate) would to follow step 5, if you
cant(low numbers, sketchy gear, not current) it could kill
you, so DON'T DO IT.

How does that look to you guys?

Mike and I are coming out for my birthday on 24 july hopefully this tropical weather crap will be long gone. See you then


GaVak  (C 38782)

Jul 6, 2010, 6:53 PM
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In reply to:
>
It would be great to have for the next "I'll just turn it on and forget about it" bumpkin.

I don’t agree with that being poor justification in every case.

I started jumping my Sony CX150 at 120 jumps with just that approach. I made it the least important part of my skydive, and that's exactly what it is. So much so that even 30 odd jumps with it later, a last minute change to an RW dive flow in the plane can make me utterly forget about turning it on before I go out the door.

My purpose in adding a camera to my jumps: I have several buddies I started practicing 2-way drills with earlier this year. They both have cameras, and their footage from our jumps helped me a great deal in correcting body position problems I was having. As it had such a positive effect on my skill growth, I wanted to return the favor.

I would never classify myself as someone with “Mad Skillz”, quite the opposite. It takes me many jumps to learn a specific body move, and I’m still dialing in 100% stand-up ladings with my current canopy. I’m in no hurry to learn anything specific, and I’m not trying to ‘prove’ myself to other jumpers outside of being in my allotted slot on a planed jump. I had nothing to prove with the camera either, I just wanted it to record footage while I was in freefall.

I did my research on this site and talked to a few instructors about the ‘200’ limit, and the biggest concern is ‘being distracted’ by the camera and failing to follow the basic skydiving safety routine you had pre-camera. At 120 jumps in just under a year, I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12 months before adding a camera to help my buddies out on our 2-way drills.

So my question for you: knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120 jumps?

~Gav


(This post was edited by GaVak on Jul 6, 2010, 6:59 PM)


Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Jul 6, 2010, 7:40 PM
Post #240 of 294 (1131 views)
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I owe you an apology I was unaware of an actual list until tonight i was under the impression when you would comment saying you were adding it to my "list" you were being sarcastic. After looking at it I believe it is unbiased and done well. I agree with the cause just thought you were being an arsehole lol. Once again I apologize thanks for what you and your contacts are doing. :)


rhanold  (D License)

Jul 6, 2010, 9:35 PM
Post #241 of 294 (1144 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
>
It would be great to have for the next "I'll just turn it on and forget about it" bumpkin.

I don’t agree with that being poor justification in every case.

I started jumping my Sony CX150 at 120 jumps with just that approach. I made it the least important part of my skydive, and that's exactly what it is. So much so that even 30 odd jumps with it later, a last minute change to an RW dive flow in the plane can make me utterly forget about turning it on before I go out the door.

My purpose in adding a camera to my jumps: I have several buddies I started practicing 2-way drills with earlier this year. They both have cameras, and their footage from our jumps helped me a great deal in correcting body position problems I was having. As it had such a positive effect on my skill growth, I wanted to return the favor.

I would never classify myself as someone with “Mad Skillz”, quite the opposite. It takes me many jumps to learn a specific body move, and I’m still dialing in 100% stand-up ladings with my current canopy. I’m in no hurry to learn anything specific, and I’m not trying to ‘prove’ myself to other jumpers outside of being in my allotted slot on a planed jump. I had nothing to prove with the camera either, I just wanted it to record footage while I was in freefall.

I did my research on this site and talked to a few instructors about the ‘200’ limit, and the biggest concern is ‘being distracted’ by the camera and failing to follow the basic skydiving safety routine you had pre-camera. At 120 jumps in just under a year, I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12 months before adding a camera to help my buddies out on our 2-way drills.

So my question for you: knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120 jumps?

~Gav

Unfortunately I can't directly answer your question, If I could I could put an end to this thread with a definitive answer.

I would say you were being less safe than I would like to see... IMHO. From your post it sounds like you describe your learning curve for skydiving as par or sub par, you then engage in jumping a new piece of equipment and instead of listening to advice from people who have been there you decide to jump it anyway because you think you wouldn't get distracted like everyone else. I know these are not your words, this is what I took from your post.

Your motivation for jumping a camera might be unique but the execution is not unlike a lot of the things people in this thread and people on the DZ are warning you about. It is the "I can handle it" argument.

One more point on distraction. How do you know you are distracted or not? Any person's perception of themselves are greatly flawed. You can see this if you ask your jump partner about the jump you were just on together and do not offer any input. If you don't provide any input there will most likely be a few things that you disagree with. Like they just got a few details wrong or sometimes you question if you were on the same jump. Point is you won't know you are distracted until something happens to drastically open your eyes. Could be too late. This is of course assuming you are distracted at all.

Blue Skies,
Ryan


pilotdave  (D License)

Jul 7, 2010, 7:42 AM
Post #242 of 294 (1091 views)
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Quote:
I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12 months before adding a camera

Really? You couldn't imagine following USPA's recommendations because it would take a whole year? You've got a nice reason for wanting to jump a camera, but it's not such a nice reason to ignore recommendations. I haven't heard that nice a reason for jumping a camera early from anyone yet... which is why I'd fully support a camera flying BSR. I waited until I had 700 jumps to put on a camera. And that took me almost 8 years. I never thought about the disservice I was doing to my friends by waiting so long to video them. Smile

I think a lot of times people don't realize how much of a distraction the camera is. Sure at first you're just gonna turn it on and forget it. I assume you have no indicator light so you just hope you turned it on before exit. You'll never climb out and then start wondering if it's on or not. And it's not like you're really actively shooting video... it's only along for the ride. Until you notice you're always looking too low so you fix that on the next jump by looking above what you want to see. And then you notice that your hands are in your video an awful lot so you change your flying style to get them out of the way. And hey, instead of tracking this time, why not watch your friend pull in place... could be useful for debriefing. And on and on and on... the cameras change our behavior. The idea behind a 200-jump recommendation (which is an absolute minimum for those that are current and on top of their game) is for building in awareness and good habits before letting a camera create poor awareness and bad habits.

I truly believe that many people would improve their flying skills by removing the camera for a while. Even if they don't think it's distracting them.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Jul 7, 2010, 7:44 AM)


beowulf  (C License)

Jul 7, 2010, 7:55 AM
Post #243 of 294 (1077 views)
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Quote:
So my question for you: knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120 jumps?


I would say yes. At 120 jumps you don't know what you don't know. You say it won't change how you fly, but from personal experience it does change how you fly. I started flying camera at about 430 jumps and it did change my skydiving. You are better off doing more jumps and concentrating on your flying then adding a camera. If will take you 8 to 12 months to reach 200 then I think you really don't have the currency to be dealing with a camera.


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Jul 7, 2010, 9:15 AM
Post #244 of 294 (1048 views)
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In reply to:
Looks like you added a bit of fiction for dramatic effect. Unsure



Yes - such as the part in the incident where "the guy" (cough, cough) detaches his helmet before cutting away. The video clearly shows no reach for the reserve handle, but the Log indicates the jumper stated his hand was on it but he chose to not pull.

That's fiction, alright. Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 7, 2010, 9:31 AM
Post #245 of 294 (1033 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I have several buddies I started practicing 2-way drills with earlier this year.
> They both have cameras . . .

Are they both at a similar experience level?

>I did my research on this site and talked to a few instructors about the
>‘200’ limit, and the biggest concern is ‘being distracted’ by the camera and
>failing to follow the basic skydiving safety routine you had pre-camera.

Yes. And history has shown that you're not going to even be aware of it until it causes a problem. The same lack of 'extra bandwidth' that makes camera a problem can cause people to not even be aware of the distraction it causes.

>At 120 jumps in just under a year, I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12
>months before adding a camera to help my buddies out on our 2-way drills.

Why not at 20 jumps, then? Wouldn't your buddies need even more help at the earlier stages of their training? If a camera truly is not an increase in distraction for you, why not add one as soon as you graduate AFF? In your case where would you draw the line?

>knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority
>on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120
>jumps?

IMO, the risks of adding a camera at 120 jumps GREATLY outweigh the benefits. It's great to get cool video for your pals, but you are putting yourself at a much higher level of risk by doing so.


GaVak  (C 38782)

Jul 7, 2010, 11:39 AM
Post #246 of 294 (994 views)
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Quote:
I think a lot of times people don't realize how much of a distraction the camera is. Sure at first you're just gonna turn it on and forget it. I assume you have no indicator light so you just hope you turned it on before exit.

I got the hypoxic attachment for this reason. I push a button on my head twice and I'm done with my camera for the rest of the jump. Once when I put my gear on at 11k, second press when the door light comes one.

Quote:
Until you notice you're always looking too low so you fix that on the next jump by looking above what you want to see ... the cameras change our behavior.

In 30 jumps I haven't made any of these adjustments. I'm not trying to be a videographer -- I'm not ready for that discipline yet. I'm just flying RW with a camera on my head. I point my head where I always do in my skydive. A great view if I'm diving to a formation; a very boring view of the top of the guy across from me's helmet when in a base. Like clockwork, you get the flash of my altimeter center stage every 6-10 seconds.

Quote:
The idea behind a 200-jump recommendation (which is an absolute minimum for those that are current and on top of their game) is for building in awareness and good habits before letting a camera create poor awareness and bad habits.

I truly believe that many people would improve their flying skills by removing the camera for a while. Even if they don't think it's distracting them.

The reason for posting my first-hand experience on this matter is not to question the 200 jump recommendation; it’s just to highlight that as with most restrictions in the world, once size doesn’t fit all. Personally, I would suggest having a coaching requirement similar to the A-license track vs. a black and white line in the dirt at a 200 jump number. Most of the posts I’ve read on this site before getting my camera seem to be cased around individuals ‘aware’ of their camera while jumping and forgetting their basics: altitude awareness, proximity to other jumpers, basic gear checks, flare BEFORE the ground, etc. To me, these camera users were ‘trying to fly video’, which is not the same as skydiving with a camera on your head. Frankly, I’d be far more nervous of some young kid with 250 jumps bouncing up and down with his new camera talking about how bad-ass of a videographer he was going to be, how awesome his videos were going to be, and oh by the way could he jump with our 4-way while promising he wouldn’t “get in the way” than someone I know to be a level headed jumper with 100 jumps putting a camera on their head to help with 2-way drill debriefs.

I'm an analytical person, and have taken a very methodic approach to the sport. While many of my friends have shifted to free flying, are playing around with front riser inputs, or are chasing some other skydiving skill, I’ve stuck to belly and RW. I’m one of the only people at my DZ with a RW suit with booties. I received my coach rating two weekends ago so that I will have the ability to better my belly and observation skills while helping new students get ready for group skydiving. I have another helmet for these jumps – I don’t want to develop lazy free-fall observation skills and depending on camera footage for my debriefings. The camera is for when I'm more focused on my skydive than the other jumpers -- say when I'm trying to learn a new maneuver like a faster center point turn with my knees

I plan to take my time in the sport. At around 250 jumps, I want to start learning the basics of free flying. Once I’m comfortable with my ability to hold a slot in a sit and can transition from sit to back to belly without sliding all over the place THEN I plan to start learning the camera flying discipline. Knowing me, I’ll be at 350+ jumps before I’m offering to ‘fly video’ for another groups RW jump.

Skydiving safety is important to me. I would have loved to do a night jump three months ago at my home DZ – but as I was still renting gear of various sizes, I elected not to do so because I was not confident in the flight characteristics of any one set of gear to say I could make the jump safely. In conversations on downsizing canopies, I’m one of the proponents of not going smaller. Just last weekend, I was first in the door and ended up taking everyone for a longish spot because a cloud was obscuring the DZ below me and I wouldn’t let my group out of the door.

In my subjective skydiving experience, I would say getting an RW suit with booties impacted my skydive far more dramatically than mounting a camera on my helmet and adding a few button presses to my skydive. Certainly not to the order of the 'I did something very risky' and 'just happened to get lucky this time' type posts I've seen on this topic.

~Gav


(This post was edited by GaVak on Jul 7, 2010, 11:52 AM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Jul 7, 2010, 12:31 PM
Post #247 of 294 (972 views)
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Quote:
I'm not trying to be a videographer -- I'm not ready for that discipline yet.

Quote:
I received my coach rating two weekends ago so that I will have the ability to better my belly and observation skills while helping new students get ready for group skydiving. I have another helmet for these jumps – I don’t want to develop lazy free-fall observation skills and depending on camera footage for my debriefings. The camera is for when I'm more focused on my skydive than the other jumpers -- say when I'm trying to learn a new maneuver like a faster center point turn with my knees

My opinon is just different from yours. I think you're doing it backwards. The camera is an AMAZING tool for coaches. You said you wear a camera specifically to help your friends improve. Why not your students? If you're not ready to be a videographer, you're not ready to jump a camera. It's that simple. You're adding the camera when you're trying something new. You should be leaving the camera on the ground for those jumps and (if you're ready for a camera) adding it when you can put it to good use.

Dave


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 7, 2010, 1:08 PM
Post #248 of 294 (946 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I got the hypoxic attachment for this reason.

So now you have a light to pay attention to. That's a minus in my book; yet another small increment of attention to subtract from your awareness in freefall.

>I'm not trying to be a videographer -- I'm not ready for that discipline yet.
>I'm just flying RW with a camera on my head. I point my head where I
>always do in my skydive.

This is the big red warning flag for me, and I've heard in a lot of other areas.

"Maybe I'm not 100% ready for high performance landings with this canopy, but I have decided to fly it super conservatively and safely until I have more experience and I can swoop it."

"Maybe I don't have 200 jumps, but I'm just jumping an old Birdman Classic on a solo, and they're barely wingsuits! It's just tracking for crying out loud."

They are making a big mistake in assuming that in both those cases, nothing much is really changing. The canopy is just like their old canopy if they're "careful." The wingsuit is just like tracking as long as they're not flocking. History has shown both of those statements to be optimistic at best, deadly at worst.

>Knowing me, I’ll be at 350+ jumps before I’m offering to ‘fly video’ for
>another groups RW jump.

I gotta say you are really doing this backwards. One of the most dangerous kinds of video you can do is lowtimer POV video; loss of altitude awareness, collisions and separation problems have all occurred on such dives. And in my experience, the more adamant a person is that they will just "turn it on and forget about it" the less they are able to manage the additional distraction.

By contrast, videoing a good 4-way team is one of the BEST ways to learn to do video. You have a 4-way team that will not be geeking you, that will give you a clear and unambiguous breakoff, and that will not notice your antics. They will not chase you if you drift off. They will not adjust their fallrate to match yours or try to dock on you. They will not be drifting all over the place. They will usually refuse to let you video their openings. They will clear their own airspace to the extent they always do, and that gives you clear airspace above them. About the worst thing you can do to them on exit is to land on them, and they'll be used to that.

If I were you, I'd wait until I felt I was ready to do the safest of camera jumps - then start there.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jul 7, 2010, 1:31 PM
Post #249 of 294 (931 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

+1. On each point.

However unfortunately, most likely - good advice, yet again - as we've so often seen, TIME & TIME AGAIN - to be simply either ignored, discounted, and in any case - probably wasted. Unsure

FWIW.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jul 7, 2010, 1:32 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 7, 2010, 5:28 PM
Post #250 of 294 (882 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The reason for posting my first-hand experience on this matter is not to question the 200 jump recommendation;

Your experience is incomplete. First you have to make it to 200 jumps incident free with your camera before you can claim success at being 'ahead of the curve'.

Quote:
I plan to take my time in the sport.

How can you claim this, but have already hit the 'fast forward' button on jumping a camera?

Quote:
Skydiving safety is important to me.

How can you claim this, but have already hit the 'fast forward' button on jumping a camera?

If skydiving safety was really important to you, you would follow the USPA reccomendation, realizing that people who know far more than you wrote things down for a reason.

You're in a very dangerous position because you think you're taking it slow and being safe, when in reality you are not. You may feel as if things will be OK, but the 'proof is in the pudding' as they say, and your pudding won't be ready until AFTER you have survived your 'accelerated' behavior. As of right now, your success remains to be seen.

How is it that you have managed to compartmentalized your jumping such that you can both bust the USPA reccomendation, and claim to be taking it slow and safe? Is it some sort of denial? Are you choosing to ignore the obvious contradiction or your actions vs your words?


rhanold  (D License)

Jul 7, 2010, 5:45 PM
Post #251 of 294 (1292 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Very well said Billvon.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 8, 2010, 7:02 AM
Post #252 of 294 (1219 views)
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Re: [] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys - I'm thinking of wearing gloves on my skydives. I've found a nice tight pair of skydiving gloves (summer) and they fit nice and I can feel all my handles and even pick up a dime off of a table with them on.

I'm worried. I only have 3500 skydives and that I just don't know what I don't know.

Am I ready to wear gloves on a skydive?


Butters  (C 37840)

Jul 8, 2010, 7:23 AM
Post #253 of 294 (1207 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Guys - I'm thinking of wearing gloves on my skydives. I've found a nice tight pair of skydiving gloves (summer) and they fit nice and I can feel all my handles and even pick up a dime off of a table with them on.

I'm worried. I only have 3500 skydives and that I just don't know what I don't know.

Am I ready to wear gloves on a skydive?

Depends, are you a little girl? Because only little girls wear gloves in the summer. Tongue


(This post was edited by Butters on Jul 8, 2010, 7:23 AM)


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jul 8, 2010, 7:30 AM
Post #254 of 294 (1198 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Guys - I'm thinking of wearing gloves on my skydives. I've found a nice tight pair of skydiving gloves (summer) and they fit nice and I can feel all my handles and even pick up a dime off of a table with them on.

I'm worried. I only have 3500 skydives and that I just don't know what I don't know.

Am I ready to wear gloves on a skydive?

depends, are they going to be a distraction?

I have had to pull for one aff student, who during early winter was making his first jump with gloves and said they were the reason he could not find his handle. Truth was he was amped up and flailing all over the handle, I knew something was wierding him out but did not khow what at the time. All he had to do was slow down and PULL. After talking to him on the ground it seems he was really nervous about the gloves and just would not say anything. This was a level 5 skydive.

I get your drift, if 200 for camera, 200 for wingsuits, how many for gloves, and whats next? However I dont see how it meaningfully effects this debate. Just because gloves are not a distraction to 99.999% of skydivers, does not change the fact that a camera is a distraction to 99.999% of them.


(This post was edited by azureriders on Jul 8, 2010, 7:33 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 8, 2010, 7:48 AM
Post #255 of 294 (1183 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Guys - I'm thinking of wearing gloves on my skydives. I've found a nice tight pair of skydiving gloves (summer) and they fit nice and I can feel all my handles and even pick up a dime off of a table with them on.

I'm worried. I only have 3500 skydives and that I just don't know what I don't know.

Am I ready to wear gloves on a skydive?

Maybe, but you should be sure to not wear shoes because you just stuk your foot in your mouth.

As much as you try to make a joke of it, gloves have been directly linked to more than one fatality. The gril in Perris last year who was a no-pull whiel wearing multiple pairs of gloves, and I recall a camera guy who put swoop cords under his gloves, and couldn't free his hands in time to deal with a problem (brake fire, I think). In both cases proper training in the selection and use of skydiving gloves could have prevented both fatalities.

Just like gloves, there are guidelines surrounding the proper selection and use of a camera in skydiving. Just like jumping in gloves is different then walking in gloves, jumping with a camera is different than filming your kids B-day party with a camera.


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jul 8, 2010, 8:20 AM
Post #256 of 294 (1171 views)
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Re: [JimGoFast] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you elitist types are the very ones that drive newer jumpers from sticking with the sport for sure.

Bill is not an elitist. LOL. Bill is one of the kindest and nicest people you will ever meet. He is very logical as well. Bill would give a person the rig of his back for months if they needed it.

If Bill or anyone else runs of a newbie for trying to keep them safe and alive, then i say run them off. The lessons learned in this sport are learned in blood and broken bones. People that think they know better then the very experienced jumpers that has seen it and done it are the problem.

Go hang out at a big DZ for a year. Then come back and say that Bill is an elitist. You will wonder why a tool S&TA at a small 182 dz is giving people bad advice.

FTR, I like small 182 DZ's they remind me of the place that I learned at. Great friends and a lot of fun. We thought we had all the answer though. We thought that our S&TA was a very safe guy. Yeah, well he is dead and so are about 6 or 7 others from that DZ. Great people living in a very small skydiving bubble though. You can only teach what you know. Truth is that most small dz's do not have very experienced staff. Oh they may be good at dropping static line students, but most of them are more full of themselves then these Elitists you speak of on here.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 8, 2010, 8:35 AM
Post #257 of 294 (1159 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was really hoping it wouldn't be you on this one. Pick your battles Dave - you are a great role model with good advice - but I worry about 'boy that cries wolf syndrome' to caution people to step back about everything. Thanks for proving the point.

No one will listen to good advice when you dilute it with the same response no matter what the subject is.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 8, 2010, 8:38 AM
Post #258 of 294 (1150 views)
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Re: [azureriders] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I get your drift, if 200 for camera, 200 for wingsuits, how many for gloves, and whats next? However I dont see how it meaningfully effects this debate. Just because gloves are not a distraction to 99.999% of skydivers, does not change the fact that a camera is a distraction to 99.999% of them.

AGREED - but I'm seeing a trend here.

I'd rather just write off the posting ego-wonders with 100 jumps that want to downsize, jump camera, BASE, wingsuit and just send them off to their local mentors (or send their local experienced crowd after them directly to handle it - except the wunderkind have to admit who they are and where they jump for us to do that)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 8, 2010, 8:39 AM)


GaVak  (C 38782)

Jul 8, 2010, 10:19 AM
Post #259 of 294 (1109 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Your experience is incomplete. First you have to make it to 200 jumps incident free with your camera before you can claim success at being 'ahead of the curve'.

I never claimed I was ahead of any curve -- I was simply giving my subjective perspective as it related to jumping with a camera.

Quote:
I plan to take my time in the sport.

I mean that I want to focus one specific discipline at a time and not burn out by hopping between them all without learning anything properly first. I'll not belabor the point I tried make that I'm capable of separating doing RW with a camera on my head and jumping to fly video -- it's apparently impossible.

Quote:
You're in a very dangerous position because you think you're taking it slow and being safe, when in reality you are not. You may feel as if things will be OK, but the 'proof is in the pudding' as they say, and your pudding won't be ready until AFTER you have survived your 'accelerated' behavior. As of right now, your success remains to be seen.

How is it that you have managed to compartmentalized your jumping such that you can both bust the USPA reccomendation, and claim to be taking it slow and safe? Is it some sort of denial? Are you choosing to ignore the obvious contradiction or your actions vs your words?

The primary saftey issue camera flying presents is loss of awareness -- I addressed the concern by making the camera on my head the least important part of my skydive. 30 jumps and running, I do my entire jump without the thought of a camera being on my head crossing my mind until I turn it off on the ground.

It works for me -- it hasn't changed my skydive but for 3 button presses. If it has somehow made my skydiving less safe, or changed it in any manner, then I'm under a pretty good self induced subjective illusion that it hasn't. What parts of my dive flow should I examin for the potentially lethal addition? Or will it be the rays of sunlight that reflect off the lens and burn my eyes out I need to be concerned with?

I don't care much for absolutes, and I feel like I'm banging my 'it hasn't distracted me' against an insurmountable wall of 'it must distract you, plus or minus suffering'. Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

Regardless -- you have my word I will update this forum if/when/how my camera impacted my skydive -- and of when I start jumping with the intent to film as the function of the skydive.

~Gav


beowulf  (C License)

Jul 8, 2010, 10:39 AM
Post #260 of 294 (1096 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

There are examples of people who said the exact same thing as you. I said the same thing when I started jumping with a camera. Cameras are a distraction. You can get away with it without causing yourself any problems. But there are many examples where it did cause a problem. Having less then 200 jumps makes it more difficult to deal with any issues that might arise.


(This post was edited by beowulf on Jul 8, 2010, 10:40 AM)


artard  (B License)

Jul 8, 2010, 10:50 AM
Post #261 of 294 (1091 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

Why is it so hard to consider the possibility that you are still so inexperienced that you have no idea what you're talking about


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jul 8, 2010, 10:53 AM
Post #262 of 294 (1087 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

It works for me -- it hasn't changed my skydive but for 3 button presses. If it has somehow made my skydiving less safe, or changed it in any manner, then I'm under a pretty good self induced subjective illusion that it hasn't. What parts of my dive flow should I examin for the potentially lethal addition? Or will it be the rays of sunlight that reflect off the lens and burn my eyes out I need to be concerned with?

I don't care much for absolutes, and I feel like I'm banging my 'it hasn't distracted me' against an insurmountable wall of 'it must distract you, plus or minus suffering'. Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

Regardless -- you have my word I will update this forum if/when/how my camera impacted my skydive -- and of when I start jumping with the intent to film as the function of the skydive.

~Gav

Gav

You are the exact reason that those with more experience bang their head on the wall saying, "Why don't they listen?"

Stop fooling yourself, put the camera in your gear bag and get more experience. The fact that you have to come here and defend yourself against so much experience shows you are a danger to yourself. People with thousands of jumps are telling you something and you chose to ignore them, people with tens of thousands of jumps have helped write the recommendations and you chose to ignore them.

Last thought, what example are you setting for jumpers coming up? if you are a coach, then you should lead by example, not showing them how to ignore safety recommendations.

top


yoink

Jul 8, 2010, 10:54 AM
Post #263 of 294 (1086 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Going. Round. In. Circles.


It's finally sunk in. It's taken a while, but then I guess I'm a slow learner...
The guys that are jumping camera ahead of the 200 jump recommendation will just continue to insist that it's not distracting them, it's not altering their skydive in any way, that they can handle it, and that all the old fuddy-duddies are just holding them back.


Congratulations. This thread has sucessfully finally crushed my will to try and pass on any advice. Unimpressed


(This post was edited by yoink on Jul 8, 2010, 10:55 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 8, 2010, 11:43 AM
Post #264 of 294 (1058 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I was simply giving my subjective extremely limited perspective as it related to jumping with a camera. Wink

You're gonna do what you're gonna do, so just do it and chop the the endless justification.

Having said that, try to keep in mind that overlooking a recommendation regarding safety is not a pattern to get into.

You feel as though you can and do handle the tasks you assign your self during a skydive and that's great. What you're not seeing the the 'possibilities' others with more experience have seen and dealt with.

You seem like a smart enough guy, and hopefully you ARE taking a better approach than what's being perceived...but seriously, step back for a second and try to understand that you're only being subjective within the limits of your experience. To me it seems you're either not seeing that, or you're not giving that enough weight as you go about making some decisions.

We ALL have egos, how we deal with them is what's important.

Don't think guys like BillVon are being egomaniacal when they make these suggestions and remarks, if they didn't care about you they would just walk away...and don't let YOUR ego start writing checks you're not ready to cash.
~By that I mean, the next step of someone in your position is to want to improve...anyone WITH an ego does.

You're looking at your video product and whether consciously or not, your realizing things you can do to make them better...that's where the distraction comes in, and it WILL!

What you are doing is adding an unnessessary link in the disaster chain, often people do that and get away with it, but seriously...why even throw the dice in that game until you have built up a stronger foundation to fall back on 'just in case' ya come up Craps one of these days.

IF.....you're still in it to win it, ten years from now, you WILL look back on what you're saying here and wonder...what WAS I thinking?! Wink


DARK  (B 31685)

Jul 8, 2010, 1:48 PM
Post #265 of 294 (1020 views)
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Re: [DSE] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Are you ruling out the fact that..

A: Shit does happen, and has always been happening to these jumpers in the 1-200 jump range regardless of a camera?

B: The camera played a direct role in what happened and would absolutely not have happened if the camera was not present?

Just because a teen gets in a car wreck does not mean a cell phone caused ALL the wrecks happening to teens because one just happened to be in the car at that time, teens have been getting in car wrecks for years.....BUT factors in some no argument there

I'm not pushing for anyone jumping a camera before 200. I just know you seem to be heading the torch and pitchfork mob. Just wondering how you are analyzing things and if you are padding the "incident list" because you feel so strongly about the subject.

Just don't want everyone who gets a stubbed toe, or anything that could have happened to anyone getting on your "camera list" when it would have happened to anyone regardless if a camera was strapped to their head or not.

I'm all for safety(part of my job in the fire service) and don't want to see ANYONE on ANY "list", so I agree with the cause, but would hate to see fake inflated reports.

If a teen is in a car wreck and an open cell phone is found on the floor of the car, there is no way to absolutely rule in or out, that the cell phone played a role.

Read back in the past years of all the guys that thought small canopies weren't playing much of a role in the increase in low turn incidents. There is still no way to absolutely rule that these guys that died wouldn't have hooked it in under a 210 either.

Usually, where there is smoke there is fire, no?

your example of the low turn issue is not like for like

downsizing, learning to swoop, turning low and impacting are very obviously connected

putting on the same helmet you have for the last however many jumps with a camera on it and then misrouting your chest strap or not cocking your pilot chute or getting too close to someone under canopy are not things that are very obviously connected and are things that people without cameras do all the time.

the appearance of an increase in incidents could just be as a result of the fact that you have started to compile a list.

your list certainly shows the reasons for not jumping with a camera before 200 jumps (low timers do stupid things all the time) it dosnt necessarily show any increase in these incidents as a result of these cameras though and to suggest it does is wrong imo

again i think most people should wait until at least 200 and everyone should ask their peers at their home dropzone


Shakey  (D 33378)

Jul 8, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #266 of 294 (1014 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

An excellent and insightful post, Twardo. But, in the interest of stirring the pot, I just gotta ask...

If these cameras were available back when you had 50 jumps, would you have strapped one on?

...and if some old DZ fuddy duddy told you to "take off that dag-gumb camera b'fer you kill yerself," would you have listened?

Wink


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jul 8, 2010, 1:51 PM
Post #267 of 294 (1012 views)
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Re: [DARK] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
again i think most people should wait until at least 200 and everyone should ask their peers at their home dropzone
And if you're doing it early, with or without approval, for pete's sake don't trumpet it all over DZ.com to show how cool or mad-skillzed you are. That is a strike against the judgment level as a rule.

Just keep doing your thing, learn, and don't fuck up.

Wendy P.


DARK  (B 31685)

Jul 8, 2010, 1:55 PM
Post #268 of 294 (1005 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
again i think most people should wait until at least 200 and everyone should ask their peers at their home dropzone
And if you're doing it early, with or without approval, for pete's sake don't trumpet it all over DZ.com to show how cool or mad-skillzed you are. That is a strike against the judgment level as a rule.

Just keep doing your thing, learn, and don't fuck up.

Wendy P.

yep i kinda agree im not sure what side icome down on as far as dz.com goes. i think the people in the know here have an obligation to post helpfull and relevant information to any question asked (if they are going to reply at all)

which suggest that if someone with 150 jumps and is wearing a camera either way asks for advice on his gear check procedure or whatever now that he has a camera they should give the relevant advice

BUT they also have to give safe advice which suggests they should go with what they feel is safe and if that is tell them they should not be thinking about this until 200 jumps then they have an obligation to say this ASWELL

its a tough one for sure


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jul 8, 2010, 1:59 PM
Post #269 of 294 (996 views)
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Re: [Shakey] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...and if some old DZ fuddy duddy told you to "take off that dag-gumb camera b'fer you kill yerself," would you have listened?

Wink

Back in the day, you wouldn't be asked to remove your camera....

some up jumper would have ripped that Go-Pro off your lowtime helmet, stomped on it with French Paracommander boots, and then make you stand before the entire DZ asking for forgiveness. Maybe you'd end up with a nickname like "Little dick camera Bob" or "My camera is as big as my brain George."

After 200 jumps and proving yourself air worthy, he would still make fun of you and lick the lens when you weren't looking. But he would still keep an eye on you.

So it shows, the old-timers are nicer these days!Wink

top


Shakey  (D 33378)

Jul 8, 2010, 3:32 PM
Post #270 of 294 (958 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe that would have been true at your DZ, Top, but I get the feeling that Twardo's first DZ was a little more informal than most. Besides, my question was mostly an attempt to get another "back in the day" story out of him. Cool

While we are on the subject, though, I still want to know why people think the SIM says there is a "200 jump minimum" for flying a camera. There is a bunch of good info in SIM 6-8, and there is a recommendation that is related to having 200 jumps, but I can't find a section that says "thou shalt have 200 jumps before flying a camera."

I figure that if someone is going to beat a guy up with the rule book, it's a good idea to have read the darn thing first. Tongue


(This post was edited by Shakey on Jul 8, 2010, 3:33 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 8, 2010, 3:49 PM
Post #271 of 294 (949 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
...and if some old DZ fuddy duddy told you to "take off that dag-gumb camera b'fer you kill yerself," would you have listened?

Wink

Back in the day, you wouldn't be asked to remove your camera....

some up jumper would have ripped that Go-Pro off your lowtime helmet, stomped on it with French Paracommander boots, and then make you stand before the entire DZ asking for forgiveness. Maybe you'd end up with a nickname like "Little dick camera Bob" or "My camera is as big as my brain George."

After 200 jumps and proving yourself air worthy, he would still make fun of you and lick the lens when you weren't looking. But he would still keep an eye on you.

So it shows, the old-timers are nicer these days!Wink

top


As a matter of fact our pilot, ole D-288 grabbed my hook knife in the aeroplane once, and cut off this really cutesie red silk scarf my GF had tied onto the back of my hocky helmet. Blush

"If yer looking for a way to foul up deployment, that's a good one... IDIOT!"

And I can't count the times I'd seen a blast handle pulled and the cable snipped while the jumper was wearing the rig! Sly


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jul 8, 2010, 3:51 PM
Post #272 of 294 (948 views)
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Re: [Shakey] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:

Section 6-8—Camera Flying Recommendations
E. Procedures

1. General
a. Prior to jumping, a skydiver should have enough
general jump experience to be able to handle any
skydiving emergency or minor problem easily and
without stress.
b. A camera flyer should possess freefall flying
skills well above average and applicable to the
planned jump.
(1) belly-to-earth
(2) freeflying (upright and head-down)
(3) canopy formation
(4) multiple (for skysurfing, filming student
training jumps, etc.)
c. A USPA C license is recommended.
d. The jumper should have made at least 50 recent
jumps on the same parachute equipment to be
used for camera flying,

e. The camera flyer should know the experience and
skills of all the jumpers in the group.
f. Deployment:
(1) The deployment altitude should allow time to
deal with the additional equipment and its
associated problems.
(2) The camera flyer must remain aware of other
jumpers during deployment.
g. Each camera flyer should conduct a complete
camera and parachute equipment check before
rigging up, before boarding the plane, and again
prior to exit.
h. Camera jumps should be approached procedurally,
with the same routine followed on every jump.
i. The priorities on the jump should be the
parachute equipment and procedures first, then
the camera equipment and procedures.
j. Introduce only one new variable (procedure or
equipment) at a time.
k. A camera jump requires additional planning and
should never be considered just another skydive

Quoted from the SIM. I was only going to site the bold underlined items but after skimming through it I decided the whole section was worthy of being in this thread.

Yes it does say C license, so we are now be to forgiving, only gripping about those who do not have 200 jumps, which is only one of the requirements of a "C"???Unsure

And I promise you, I have read the book, front to back. I don’t know if that is a good thing, and I am sure I won't get any cool points for it, but I have.


(This post was edited by azureriders on Jul 8, 2010, 3:54 PM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 9, 2010, 8:36 AM
Post #273 of 294 (863 views)
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Re: [azureriders] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
d. The jumper should have made at least 50 recent jumps on the same parachute equipment to be used for camera flying,

My guess is that if you have 150 jumps and are flying a camera, you're also downsizing rapidly???Tongue

Bill... You may want to try some gloves with the fingers cut off to "ease" your way into jumping gloves. Wink


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jul 9, 2010, 8:48 AM
Post #274 of 294 (852 views)
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Re: [GaVak] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I started jumping my Sony CX150 at 120 jumps with just that approach. I made it the least important part of my skydive, and that's exactly what it is. So much so that even 30 odd jumps with it later, a last minute change to an RW dive flow in the plane can make me utterly forget about turning it on before I go out the door.
In reply to:




There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence

That is a qoute from Tom Brown and Wendy's sig line. Think about it.


(This post was edited by dgskydive on Jul 9, 2010, 8:51 AM)


jrjny  (A License)

Jul 13, 2010, 9:25 PM
Post #275 of 294 (747 views)
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Re: [RickH] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read through most of the fatality reports over the past 5 years (on this site) and I can't recall one where anyone (experience level aside) died from losing altitude awareness OR having a MAL that originated due to or was enhanced by, a camera.

Many were due to CRW wrap issues (latest parachutist mag as well) or swooping related issues...then equipment related mals. IF I also recall, a recent parachutist magazine detailed there being the fewest incidents among A and B licensed jumpers.

This seems to suggest either (a) higher number jumpers are more dangerous or (b) the odds of fucking up increase over time, which is really a subset of option A or (c) there are more experienced jumpers to fuck up. But I digress.



Where are the recommendations or BSR's around swooping and CRW? Honest question...



For all the anecdotes posted here, I'd point to the classic post hoc reasoning error - he pulled low or forgot to pull and had a camera, therefore the camera caused it. It might be true, it might not be true. That's not the issue though.

Just because you have more or less jumps doesn't mean you're more or less entitled to control what you or others do...I think people lose sight of that fact and tend to get myopic or think jumping is some sacred practice where licenses and jump numbers are like sacraments and levels of some priesthood lol.

If you want to jump with a camera and have <200 jumps, go somewhere where no one cares and let them see the revenue. Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Focus on constructive advice about how to fly with cameras: get an audible or 2, remove snag points, look at the ground itself...

Jeff


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 13, 2010, 9:56 PM
Post #276 of 294 (1165 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've read through most of the fatality reports over the past 5 years (on this site) and I can't recall one where anyone (experience level aside) died from losing altitude awareness OR having a MAL that originated due to or was enhanced by, a camera.

Many were due to CRW wrap issues (latest parachutist mag as well) or swooping related issues...then equipment related mals. IF I also recall, a recent parachutist magazine detailed there being the fewest incidents among A and B licensed jumpers.

This seems to suggest either (a) higher number jumpers are more dangerous or (b) the odds of fucking up increase over time, which is really a subset of option A or (c) there are more experienced jumpers to fuck up. But I digress.



Where are the recommendations or BSR's around swooping and CRW? Honest question...



For all the anecdotes posted here, I'd point to the classic post hoc reasoning error - he pulled low or forgot to pull and had a camera, therefore the camera caused it. It might be true, it might not be true. That's not the issue though.

Just because you have more or less jumps doesn't mean you're more or less entitled to control what you or others do...I think people lose sight of that fact and tend to get myopic or think jumping is some sacred practice where licenses and jump numbers are like sacraments and levels of some priesthood lol.

If you want to jump with a camera and have <200 jumps, go somewhere where no one cares and let them see the revenue. Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Focus on constructive advice about how to fly with cameras: get an audible or 2, remove snag points, look at the ground itself...

Jeff


Spoken like a true skygod with a bucketful of luck. TongueThose audibles will really help you not hurt someone else. The two low timers that had the collision while sit flying both had audibles along with their cameras. Frickin' things just not have worked, because the cameras made clear exactly what happened. In one of the videos, the audible can be heard on the camera.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jul 14, 2010, 9:19 AM
Post #277 of 294 (1074 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are plenty of bad things that happen in skydiving that aren't fatalities... it's good that you're doing research and reading as much as you can, but your early conclusions are based on limited input.

I can think of accidents created or made worse by cameras, some of which are recorded on this site... keep looking. Keep asking. You'll figure it out.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 14, 2010, 9:35 AM
Post #278 of 294 (1067 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Just because you have more or less jumps doesn't mean you're more or
>less entitled to control what you or others do...

Yes, you are. When you have 10 jumps you are allowed to do very little. When you have 6000 you can do much more. Likewise, when you have 10 jumps, few people will listen to you. When you have 6000, people _will_ listen to you. And if you're an instructor or S+TA at that point, you can indeed control them.

This is not because experience "entitles" you to "have power." It's because experienced people will generally do a better job of keeping jumpers alive, and their judgment is better than people with fewer jumps.

>Focus on constructive advice about how to fly with cameras: get an
>audible or 2, remove snag points, look at the ground itself.

Or take the fucking camera off your head and learn to fly your body first. Good advice is good advice even when a jumper dislikes it (indeed, often that's the most important kind.)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jul 14, 2010, 9:44 AM
Post #279 of 294 (1059 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Good advice is good advice even when a jumper dislikes it (indeed, often that's the most important kind.)

Most likely the best words ever written on this site!

top


cderham  (D 29951)

Jul 14, 2010, 10:40 AM
Post #280 of 294 (1034 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Very true but I still do not want to see someone die no matter how much $ its gonna make the dropzone. I am sure that a dropzone run based on revenue building and not safety will soon rack up deaths and be out of buisness cause no one will want to jump there. Because it UNSAFE!

Not sure what is going on now adays with "young" jumpers but damn it man if this is the future instructors of our sport I am a little worried.


GaVak  (C 38782)

Jul 14, 2010, 11:05 AM
Post #281 of 294 (1042 views)
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Re: [cderham] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Very true but I still do not want to see someone die no matter how much $ its gonna make the dropzone.

I'm not sure I follow the statement -- are you referring to DZ's using low jump number camera flyers to do videography of students?

~Gav


trig78  (B License)

Jul 14, 2010, 12:06 PM
Post #282 of 294 (1016 views)
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Re: [cderham] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not sure what is going on now days with "young" jumpers but damn it man if this is the future instructors of our sport I am a little worried.

All those future instructors will change the way they see things as they get more mature in age and the sport. That's just how it goes. Wink
It was always like that and it will always be like that, in life, skydiving and anything else. When you're young you are the smartest, most capable, indestructable....and ''old'' people just don't get that Crazy
I know I was like that Blush


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 14, 2010, 1:17 PM
Post #283 of 294 (977 views)
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Re: [trig78] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Not sure what is going on now days with "young" jumpers but damn it man if this is the future instructors of our sport I am a little worried.

All those future instructors will change the way they see things as they get more mature in age and the sport. That's just how it goes. Wink
It was always like that and it will always be like that, in life, skydiving and anything else. When you're young you are the smartest, most capable, indestructable....and ''old'' people just don't get that Crazy
I know I was like that Blush

They will if they're around long enough...


But what the old guys understand is, you fuck up here you can die...no do-overs.


artard  (B License)

Jul 14, 2010, 1:35 PM
Post #284 of 294 (963 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry if this is off topic but related to the current discussion I am 28 years old now and although I'm not "old" it's shocking to think of all the stupid things I did and judgment calls I made when I was 18-21 and thinking I was totally invincible to consequences. Reflecting on that I'm not at all surprised at the attitudes of many young jumpers because I would have been exactly the same way if I started skydiving when I was 18. I'm glad I waited until my late 20's because I would have been a terribly unsafe skydiver at that age.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 14, 2010, 2:45 PM
Post #285 of 294 (922 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I see repeated confusion between "young or old" vs "inexperienced or experienced" vs "foolhardy or wise". They may be loosely correlated but they don't mean the same thing at all.


(This post was edited by kallend on Jul 14, 2010, 2:46 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 14, 2010, 4:45 PM
Post #286 of 294 (878 views)
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Re: [cderham] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Not sure what is going on now adays with "young" jumpers but damn it
>man if this is the future instructors of our sport I am a little worried.

This happens to every generation of skydivers. In ten years those people who are today jumping cameras at 100 jumps and wingsuiting before they're ready will be lecturing others on how that's a bad idea - and will be told "get the stick out of your ass, dude."


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 14, 2010, 5:29 PM
Post #287 of 294 (866 views)
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Re: [artard] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry if this is off topic but related to the current discussion I am 28 years old now and although I'm not "old" it's shocking to think of all the stupid things I did and judgment calls I made when I was 18-21 and thinking I was totally invincible to consequences. Reflecting on that I'm not at all surprised at the attitudes of many young jumpers because I would have been exactly the same way if I started skydiving when I was 18. I'm glad I waited until my late 20's because I would have been a terribly unsafe skydiver at that age.


I understand what you're saying...but in MY case I started Skydiving when I turned 18.

I played it pretty straight until I was in my mid 20's. I'd been at it coming up on a decade, had lots of jumps and just KNEW I was better than the 'average' jumper.

Then went through a period of watching friends die doing the same stupid shit I was doing...THEN we had some VERY good skydivers go in just doing what very good skydivers do.

Came to realize that the reaper doesn't know from 'average'...and Murphy lurks on every jump. It's a cost benefit analysis, and it became apparent that the cost of increasing the odds for failure was NOT worth any foreseeable benefit.

I don't swoop, never will...but I'll drive two hours just to watch AggieDave compete because I recognise the skill and artistry needed to do it right.

I want to get into wing-suits one of there days but my rig isn't compatible right now and I want one of the top guys we see on these boards to train me, I respect his skills and method. It'll happen, there's no rush.

Yes I jump cameras, but I also do a lot of demonstration jumping, which means I'm extremely geared to carrying extra junk and take great pains to know and practice the EP's that go along with any extra gear.

So yeah I went through the 'I know me better than anyone' phase, but that's not really what this stuff is all about, it's about experienced jumpers knowing more about the sport, and what can/has happened...trust me, it colors the way you look at and do things.

The funny thing about this thread, and absolutely no disrespect meant toward anyone...

~but we see a fairly new skydiver who is obviously intelligent by the wording of his arguments, defending with every possible method his decision to jump a small camera prior to the recommended jump number.

Having had a problem already once and clearly explaining that yes his performance dealing with the problem was less than perfect, continues to remain steadfast with the idea it's okay to continue bla bla bla...

He's wrong, others myself included are at a loss as to a way to help him recognize that...it happens all the time in this sport. And yeah, in ten years if he's still around he'll be giving this speech to some OTHER 100 jump wonder...that is unless Murphy steps in first.


DARK  (B 31685)

Jul 14, 2010, 8:11 PM
Post #288 of 294 (829 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"get the stick out of your ass, dude."

not that i think it bothered you that much but that wasnt really aimed at you personally just to be clear


trig78  (B License)

Jul 14, 2010, 8:37 PM
Post #289 of 294 (816 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They will if they're around long enough...
But what the old guys understand is, you fuck up here you can die...no do-overs.

Amen!


g_fun  (C 38074)

Jul 15, 2010, 4:57 AM
Post #290 of 294 (758 views)
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Quote:
I want to get into wing-suits one of there days but my rig isn't compatible right now and I want one of the top guys we see on these boards to train me, I respect his skills and method. It'll happen, there's no rush.

I think this statement speaks volumes. The fact that someone with your experience and time in the sport (notice I didn't call you oldTongue) is humble enough to seek out appropriate instruction when you're ready to learn a new discipline is a great example for those who are in a rush, and think they already know it all.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jul 15, 2010, 7:07 PM
Post #291 of 294 (648 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Had a young jumper show up at my dropzone today. 35 jumps still renting gear. (Had his own helmet). Learned at Spaceland but has been at my dz once before I think. Spaceland is his home dz.

Seems really nice, not arrogant, or know-it-all or anything like that. He was in the plane with me and an AFF student today, and on jumprun noticed my Contour camera and commented that he had one of those but it had gotten ripped off his helmet. I was shocked. He was allowed to jump a camera renting gear at crazy few jumps?

Wasn't an issue for us because he had already lost the camera but that scared me. Unfortunately he was in a hurry and had to leave before I could talk to him about it. Just from his general attitude, I think that if someone sat him down and explained to him why he shouldn't be jumping a camera at his number of jumps he would listen. Apparently no one ever had though because apparently he had already bought, installed, and lost a camera at 35 jumps. And he's still jumping dz rental gear so I can't imagine locals wouldn't recognize that. Why would no one say anything?

At least having lost it, he's probably not in a hurry to spend $300 on a replacement that he may again lose..


Floflo

Jul 16, 2010, 6:29 AM
Post #292 of 294 (565 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Last Sunday, a guy, around twenty, shows up in the morning at the DZ where I teach, asks if we do S/L and if he could make a couple of jumps.
He had taken the FJC and made 8 S/L jumps at a DZ I know, wich has a good reputation, two weeks before.

No problem, I show him the plane and give him a briefing for the landing zone and pattern. The guy seems pretty heads up.
Then I tell him that for his fisrt jump here I'll give him a radio (The LZ is small with few outs) and explain how we do it here.
I see something is bothering him, so I tell him that I don't plan on guiding him, it's just in case, if he does OK I'll let him fly.
To what he answers: "I don't have a problem with the radio, actually I'll feel more comfortable with it, but the problem is that the chest strap is where I clip my camera on."
.
.
.

Turns out he had a very thin camera (Didn't check the brand) he used to carry in his pocket, and had used it on his last four jumps without telling anyone. Not that he wanted to hide it (He told me immediately without realizing I might have something to say about it), he just didn't have a clue...

I can't be sure it's related of course, but a young, athletic and intelligent guy who is still on basic S/L after 8 jumps is not standard.
He did so well on his jump that I asked why he hadn't done better before. After thinking about it, he said (I hadn't said anything regarding the camera before - except I was not going to let him take it because it was forbidden- on purpose.): "Well, I think I was concentrating on not forgetting to use my camera once the chute would be open."


brucet7  (C 38954)

Jul 16, 2010, 7:16 AM
Post #293 of 294 (548 views)
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Re: [Floflo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

This week I was visiting with a young jumper (18) who was there doing jumps 98, 99, 100. He was talking about equipment he wanted as he packed. He needed to get a jump suit and a camera. We talked about how much a Contour costs. I then mentioned (having no real authority other than advanced age) that "they" recommend 200 jumps before flying a camera. "Oh, I know." I don't know what he will do but sure hope he goes for the suit and not the camera first.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 16, 2010, 8:06 AM
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Re: [brucet7] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know what he will do but sure hope he goes for the suit and not the camera first.

pwah!!!

what's the point of having a suit if you can't take pics of it?



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