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Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not?

 

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Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 13, 2010, 9:56 PM
Post #276 of 294 (1150 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've read through most of the fatality reports over the past 5 years (on this site) and I can't recall one where anyone (experience level aside) died from losing altitude awareness OR having a MAL that originated due to or was enhanced by, a camera.

Many were due to CRW wrap issues (latest parachutist mag as well) or swooping related issues...then equipment related mals. IF I also recall, a recent parachutist magazine detailed there being the fewest incidents among A and B licensed jumpers.

This seems to suggest either (a) higher number jumpers are more dangerous or (b) the odds of fucking up increase over time, which is really a subset of option A or (c) there are more experienced jumpers to fuck up. But I digress.



Where are the recommendations or BSR's around swooping and CRW? Honest question...



For all the anecdotes posted here, I'd point to the classic post hoc reasoning error - he pulled low or forgot to pull and had a camera, therefore the camera caused it. It might be true, it might not be true. That's not the issue though.

Just because you have more or less jumps doesn't mean you're more or less entitled to control what you or others do...I think people lose sight of that fact and tend to get myopic or think jumping is some sacred practice where licenses and jump numbers are like sacraments and levels of some priesthood lol.

If you want to jump with a camera and have <200 jumps, go somewhere where no one cares and let them see the revenue. Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Focus on constructive advice about how to fly with cameras: get an audible or 2, remove snag points, look at the ground itself...

Jeff


Spoken like a true skygod with a bucketful of luck. TongueThose audibles will really help you not hurt someone else. The two low timers that had the collision while sit flying both had audibles along with their cameras. Frickin' things just not have worked, because the cameras made clear exactly what happened. In one of the videos, the audible can be heard on the camera.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jul 14, 2010, 9:19 AM
Post #277 of 294 (1059 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are plenty of bad things that happen in skydiving that aren't fatalities... it's good that you're doing research and reading as much as you can, but your early conclusions are based on limited input.

I can think of accidents created or made worse by cameras, some of which are recorded on this site... keep looking. Keep asking. You'll figure it out.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 14, 2010, 9:35 AM
Post #278 of 294 (1052 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Just because you have more or less jumps doesn't mean you're more or
>less entitled to control what you or others do...

Yes, you are. When you have 10 jumps you are allowed to do very little. When you have 6000 you can do much more. Likewise, when you have 10 jumps, few people will listen to you. When you have 6000, people _will_ listen to you. And if you're an instructor or S+TA at that point, you can indeed control them.

This is not because experience "entitles" you to "have power." It's because experienced people will generally do a better job of keeping jumpers alive, and their judgment is better than people with fewer jumps.

>Focus on constructive advice about how to fly with cameras: get an
>audible or 2, remove snag points, look at the ground itself.

Or take the fucking camera off your head and learn to fly your body first. Good advice is good advice even when a jumper dislikes it (indeed, often that's the most important kind.)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jul 14, 2010, 9:44 AM
Post #279 of 294 (1044 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Good advice is good advice even when a jumper dislikes it (indeed, often that's the most important kind.)

Most likely the best words ever written on this site!

top


cderham  (D 29951)

Jul 14, 2010, 10:40 AM
Post #280 of 294 (1019 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Very true but I still do not want to see someone die no matter how much $ its gonna make the dropzone. I am sure that a dropzone run based on revenue building and not safety will soon rack up deaths and be out of buisness cause no one will want to jump there. Because it UNSAFE!

Not sure what is going on now adays with "young" jumpers but damn it man if this is the future instructors of our sport I am a little worried.


GaVak  (C 38782)

Jul 14, 2010, 11:05 AM
Post #281 of 294 (1027 views)
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Re: [cderham] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Very true but I still do not want to see someone die no matter how much $ its gonna make the dropzone.

I'm not sure I follow the statement -- are you referring to DZ's using low jump number camera flyers to do videography of students?

~Gav


trig78  (B License)

Jul 14, 2010, 12:06 PM
Post #282 of 294 (1001 views)
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Re: [cderham] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not sure what is going on now days with "young" jumpers but damn it man if this is the future instructors of our sport I am a little worried.

All those future instructors will change the way they see things as they get more mature in age and the sport. That's just how it goes. Wink
It was always like that and it will always be like that, in life, skydiving and anything else. When you're young you are the smartest, most capable, indestructable....and ''old'' people just don't get that Crazy
I know I was like that Blush


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 14, 2010, 1:17 PM
Post #283 of 294 (962 views)
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Re: [trig78] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Not sure what is going on now days with "young" jumpers but damn it man if this is the future instructors of our sport I am a little worried.

All those future instructors will change the way they see things as they get more mature in age and the sport. That's just how it goes. Wink
It was always like that and it will always be like that, in life, skydiving and anything else. When you're young you are the smartest, most capable, indestructable....and ''old'' people just don't get that Crazy
I know I was like that Blush

They will if they're around long enough...


But what the old guys understand is, you fuck up here you can die...no do-overs.


artard  (B License)

Jul 14, 2010, 1:35 PM
Post #284 of 294 (948 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry if this is off topic but related to the current discussion I am 28 years old now and although I'm not "old" it's shocking to think of all the stupid things I did and judgment calls I made when I was 18-21 and thinking I was totally invincible to consequences. Reflecting on that I'm not at all surprised at the attitudes of many young jumpers because I would have been exactly the same way if I started skydiving when I was 18. I'm glad I waited until my late 20's because I would have been a terribly unsafe skydiver at that age.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 14, 2010, 2:45 PM
Post #285 of 294 (907 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I see repeated confusion between "young or old" vs "inexperienced or experienced" vs "foolhardy or wise". They may be loosely correlated but they don't mean the same thing at all.


(This post was edited by kallend on Jul 14, 2010, 2:46 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 14, 2010, 4:45 PM
Post #286 of 294 (863 views)
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Re: [cderham] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Not sure what is going on now adays with "young" jumpers but damn it
>man if this is the future instructors of our sport I am a little worried.

This happens to every generation of skydivers. In ten years those people who are today jumping cameras at 100 jumps and wingsuiting before they're ready will be lecturing others on how that's a bad idea - and will be told "get the stick out of your ass, dude."


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 14, 2010, 5:29 PM
Post #287 of 294 (851 views)
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Re: [artard] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry if this is off topic but related to the current discussion I am 28 years old now and although I'm not "old" it's shocking to think of all the stupid things I did and judgment calls I made when I was 18-21 and thinking I was totally invincible to consequences. Reflecting on that I'm not at all surprised at the attitudes of many young jumpers because I would have been exactly the same way if I started skydiving when I was 18. I'm glad I waited until my late 20's because I would have been a terribly unsafe skydiver at that age.


I understand what you're saying...but in MY case I started Skydiving when I turned 18.

I played it pretty straight until I was in my mid 20's. I'd been at it coming up on a decade, had lots of jumps and just KNEW I was better than the 'average' jumper.

Then went through a period of watching friends die doing the same stupid shit I was doing...THEN we had some VERY good skydivers go in just doing what very good skydivers do.

Came to realize that the reaper doesn't know from 'average'...and Murphy lurks on every jump. It's a cost benefit analysis, and it became apparent that the cost of increasing the odds for failure was NOT worth any foreseeable benefit.

I don't swoop, never will...but I'll drive two hours just to watch AggieDave compete because I recognise the skill and artistry needed to do it right.

I want to get into wing-suits one of there days but my rig isn't compatible right now and I want one of the top guys we see on these boards to train me, I respect his skills and method. It'll happen, there's no rush.

Yes I jump cameras, but I also do a lot of demonstration jumping, which means I'm extremely geared to carrying extra junk and take great pains to know and practice the EP's that go along with any extra gear.

So yeah I went through the 'I know me better than anyone' phase, but that's not really what this stuff is all about, it's about experienced jumpers knowing more about the sport, and what can/has happened...trust me, it colors the way you look at and do things.

The funny thing about this thread, and absolutely no disrespect meant toward anyone...

~but we see a fairly new skydiver who is obviously intelligent by the wording of his arguments, defending with every possible method his decision to jump a small camera prior to the recommended jump number.

Having had a problem already once and clearly explaining that yes his performance dealing with the problem was less than perfect, continues to remain steadfast with the idea it's okay to continue bla bla bla...

He's wrong, others myself included are at a loss as to a way to help him recognize that...it happens all the time in this sport. And yeah, in ten years if he's still around he'll be giving this speech to some OTHER 100 jump wonder...that is unless Murphy steps in first.


DARK  (B 31685)

Jul 14, 2010, 8:11 PM
Post #288 of 294 (814 views)
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Re: [billvon] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"get the stick out of your ass, dude."

not that i think it bothered you that much but that wasnt really aimed at you personally just to be clear


trig78  (B License)

Jul 14, 2010, 8:37 PM
Post #289 of 294 (801 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They will if they're around long enough...
But what the old guys understand is, you fuck up here you can die...no do-overs.

Amen!


g_fun  (C 38074)

Jul 15, 2010, 4:57 AM
Post #290 of 294 (743 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I want to get into wing-suits one of there days but my rig isn't compatible right now and I want one of the top guys we see on these boards to train me, I respect his skills and method. It'll happen, there's no rush.

I think this statement speaks volumes. The fact that someone with your experience and time in the sport (notice I didn't call you oldTongue) is humble enough to seek out appropriate instruction when you're ready to learn a new discipline is a great example for those who are in a rush, and think they already know it all.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Jul 15, 2010, 7:07 PM
Post #291 of 294 (633 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Had a young jumper show up at my dropzone today. 35 jumps still renting gear. (Had his own helmet). Learned at Spaceland but has been at my dz once before I think. Spaceland is his home dz.

Seems really nice, not arrogant, or know-it-all or anything like that. He was in the plane with me and an AFF student today, and on jumprun noticed my Contour camera and commented that he had one of those but it had gotten ripped off his helmet. I was shocked. He was allowed to jump a camera renting gear at crazy few jumps?

Wasn't an issue for us because he had already lost the camera but that scared me. Unfortunately he was in a hurry and had to leave before I could talk to him about it. Just from his general attitude, I think that if someone sat him down and explained to him why he shouldn't be jumping a camera at his number of jumps he would listen. Apparently no one ever had though because apparently he had already bought, installed, and lost a camera at 35 jumps. And he's still jumping dz rental gear so I can't imagine locals wouldn't recognize that. Why would no one say anything?

At least having lost it, he's probably not in a hurry to spend $300 on a replacement that he may again lose..


Floflo

Jul 16, 2010, 6:29 AM
Post #292 of 294 (550 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Last Sunday, a guy, around twenty, shows up in the morning at the DZ where I teach, asks if we do S/L and if he could make a couple of jumps.
He had taken the FJC and made 8 S/L jumps at a DZ I know, wich has a good reputation, two weeks before.

No problem, I show him the plane and give him a briefing for the landing zone and pattern. The guy seems pretty heads up.
Then I tell him that for his fisrt jump here I'll give him a radio (The LZ is small with few outs) and explain how we do it here.
I see something is bothering him, so I tell him that I don't plan on guiding him, it's just in case, if he does OK I'll let him fly.
To what he answers: "I don't have a problem with the radio, actually I'll feel more comfortable with it, but the problem is that the chest strap is where I clip my camera on."
.
.
.

Turns out he had a very thin camera (Didn't check the brand) he used to carry in his pocket, and had used it on his last four jumps without telling anyone. Not that he wanted to hide it (He told me immediately without realizing I might have something to say about it), he just didn't have a clue...

I can't be sure it's related of course, but a young, athletic and intelligent guy who is still on basic S/L after 8 jumps is not standard.
He did so well on his jump that I asked why he hadn't done better before. After thinking about it, he said (I hadn't said anything regarding the camera before - except I was not going to let him take it because it was forbidden- on purpose.): "Well, I think I was concentrating on not forgetting to use my camera once the chute would be open."


brucet7  (C 38954)

Jul 16, 2010, 7:16 AM
Post #293 of 294 (533 views)
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Re: [Floflo] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

This week I was visiting with a young jumper (18) who was there doing jumps 98, 99, 100. He was talking about equipment he wanted as he packed. He needed to get a jump suit and a camera. We talked about how much a Contour costs. I then mentioned (having no real authority other than advanced age) that "they" recommend 200 jumps before flying a camera. "Oh, I know." I don't know what he will do but sure hope he goes for the suit and not the camera first.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 16, 2010, 8:06 AM
Post #294 of 294 (508 views)
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Re: [brucet7] Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know what he will do but sure hope he goes for the suit and not the camera first.

pwah!!!

what's the point of having a suit if you can't take pics of it?


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