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Can "experience" be a bad thing?

 

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rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 17, 2010, 8:58 AM
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Can "experience" be a bad thing? Can't Post

A lot of newbies tune out advice when the main argument is "you need more experience". I'd argue that we actually mean they need more "correct" experience.

But I'm willing to throw a few bones that way hoping that most of us old schoolers try to walk the talk as best we can.

How about we put out a few examples of where old school is now realized to be incorrect or not the best and acknowledge that some colleagues aren't learning despite thousands of jumps.

priming the pump:

1 - slow fall (beach ball is still recommended by old timers). IMHO with booties, long and flat is where it's at

2 - 45 degree rule for separation - need I say more? and this is a dangerous one. It's an old time rule that needs to be crushed.

3 - vertical separation matters for exit order (absolutely not a primary concern over winddrift)

4 - I see a lot of oldtimers that just don't ever finish their flares on HP canopies. But they do seem to still be able to run pretty good. Tongue

any more?


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 17, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
A canopy will change it's recovery arc based on the wind.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 17, 2010, 11:46 AM
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Re: [jdfreefly] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

- There is no such thing as too big a jumpsuit Smile

Wendy P.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jun 17, 2010, 12:00 PM
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Re: [wmw999] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

- There is no such thing as too big a jumpsuit Smile

Wendy P.

For some reason I remember Brian Germain teaching that..... or am I just wrong? Maybe he taught not to do that? I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 17, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

- There is no such thing as too big a jumpsuit Smile

Wendy P.

For some reason I remember Brian Germain teaching that..... or am I just wrong? Maybe he taught not to do that? I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

speed is your friend for many of the newer canopies

partial brakes was a correct response on older 7 cells to help open the nose for more inflation - newer canopies appreciate more speed over inlet angle - someone help me with this one - I don't think I'm explaining as clearly as it's needed

Wendy - the brakes thing I still see taught (incorrectly for most canopies) today. The suit thing not so much. nice ones


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jun 17, 2010, 12:44 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

- There is no such thing as too big a jumpsuit Smile

Wendy P.

For some reason I remember Brian Germain teaching that..... or am I just wrong? Maybe he taught not to do that? I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

speed is your friend for many of the newer canopies

partial brakes was a correct response on older 7 cells to help open the nose for more inflation - newer canopies appreciate more speed over inlet angle - someone help me with this one - I don't think I'm explaining as clearly as it's needed

Wendy - the brakes thing I still see taught (incorrectly for most canopies) today. The suit thing not so much. nice ones

So inducing more speed via front risers is correct? I get what you are saying and actually I think that is exactly what Brian says about modern canopies.


Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Jun 17, 2010, 12:47 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

When he discussed it on Skydive radio I heard it as taking up brakes in flight was to "pretension" the control lines in anticipation of a stall/collapse there would be that much less lag time when giving imput to reinflate the canopy.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 17, 2010, 12:49 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So inducing more speed via front risers is correct? I get what you are saying and actually I think that is exactly what Brian says about modern canopies.

For newer canopy models, I'm not certain (full flight vs inducing extra speed with fronts while in the turb air) which is safer - I'd take it to the canopy forum or look up some of Brian's articles to clarify that distinction. I'm a 4way guy, not a canopy guy.

But if you have an older canopy like a Maverick or Pegasus, then quarter brakes is appropriate and fronts is a mistake...... So it depends on the canopy.

For my Stiletto, I like to do a long smooth front turn and then let it fly through the turbulence without the extra if I know it's down there ahead of time - but that's a special case. Otherwise, if I'm caught in turb, I just let it fly and minimize any inputs to no more than needed just to keep it on track.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 17, 2010, 12:50 PM
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Re: [Anvilbrother] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
taking up brakes

I don't know what that means - does it mean pull down or let up?

(this is what I'm inferring), just take the slack out of the brakes (a good brake setting lets the canopy fly with no tail deflection, plus a little more slack than that even - a couple inches), but no more (full flight still, just be ready) - if so, that makes the most sense to me


thanks


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 17, 2010, 12:53 PM)


Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Jun 17, 2010, 12:55 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes pulling down on the control lines to take up the slack in the lines


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 17, 2010, 1:05 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The suit thing not so much
That one was said in 1979 Sly

Wendy P.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jun 17, 2010, 1:35 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So inducing more speed via front risers is correct? I get what you are saying and actually I think that is exactly what Brian says about modern canopies.

For newer canopy models, I'm not certain (full flight vs inducing extra speed with fronts while in the turb air) which is safer - I'd take it to the canopy forum or look up some of Brian's articles to clarify that distinction. I'm a 4way guy, not a canopy guy.

But if you have an older canopy like a Maverick or Pegasus, then quarter brakes is appropriate and fronts is a mistake...... So it depends on the canopy.

For my Stiletto, I like to do a long smooth front turn and then let it fly through the turbulence without the extra if I know it's down there ahead of time - but that's a special case. Otherwise, if I'm caught in turb, I just let it fly and minimize any inputs to no more than needed just to keep it on track.


I fly a Crossfire 2


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 17, 2010, 3:18 PM
Post #13 of 63 (3418 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

I would recommend that you do not distort the canopy when you're worried about it collapsing. Most canopies are most stable at full flight or with some (slight) brake input. Most canopies reinflate best with "deployment" brake settings, usually about 1/4 to 1/2 brakes.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 17, 2010, 4:29 PM
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Re: [billvon] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

I would recommend that you do not distort the canopy when you're worried about it collapsing. Most canopies are most stable at full flight or with some (slight) brake input. Most canopies reinflate best with "deployment" brake settings, usually about 1/4 to 1/2 brakes.

Agreed. Flight-1 canopy courses teach participants to fly in full flight through turbulence.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jun 18, 2010, 9:03 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

I would recommend that you do not distort the canopy when you're worried about it collapsing. Most canopies are most stable at full flight or with some (slight) brake input. Most canopies reinflate best with "deployment" brake settings, usually about 1/4 to 1/2 brakes.

Agreed. Flight-1 canopy courses teach participants to fly in full flight through turbulence.

With altitude thats what I do I am talking about landing. If it is turbulant lower I do a normal pattern and come in double fronts for speed. Not a good idea?


tetra316  (D 26945)

Jun 18, 2010, 9:13 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a good idea if that is not your normal landing sequence. You don't want to be doing double fronts for the first time in turbulance. That's asking for trouble.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jun 18, 2010, 10:03 AM
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Re: [tetra316] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not a good idea if that is not your normal landing sequence. You don't want to be doing double fronts for the first time in turbulance. That's asking for trouble.

I come in double fronts or w/a 90 front riser. Good input though.... that could be really bad if it was not practiced up high first and been done when conditions are good.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Jun 18, 2010, 10:35 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

As for a good idea in turbulence, I really don't know. Thinking full flight would be better though...


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 18, 2010, 10:49 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Double fronts not such a good idea. You want the nose open to the air. When you pull down on the fronts you are pulling the leading edge down and if the air hits it from the top and folds it under, then you are in for some trouble. Full flight would be the best thing.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jun 18, 2010, 11:44 AM
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Re: [dgskydive] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Double fronts not such a good idea. You want the nose open to the air. When you pull down on the fronts you are pulling the leading edge down and if the air hits it from the top and folds it under, then you are in for some trouble. Full flight would be the best thing.

Cool.... thanks for all of the input everyone. I was under the assumption speed would help out but thinking about everything that has been said it makes more sense to just let it fly.


champu  (D 28302)

Jun 18, 2010, 12:26 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How about we put out a few examples of where old school is now realized to be incorrect or not the best and acknowledge that some colleagues aren't learning despite thousands of jumps.

There's a lot of old school exit advice for 4-way FS that's counter-productive, like telling the point to keep their feet on their butt or telling the tail to stick their legs all the way out. I think it stemed from the desire to have the formation pointed at the ground regardless of where the relative wind was coming from.

Likewise the old school rolling of a head-down flower out the door sideways doesn't present anybody to the relatively wind correctly.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 18, 2010, 6:23 PM
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Re: [wmw999] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.
In reply to:

Works great on my canopy at my wingloading. YMMV.


RIGGER160  (D 12345)

Jun 20, 2010, 6:00 PM
Post #23 of 63 (3058 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah. To many people are operating under the false assupmtion that experience is the same as competence


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 21, 2010, 6:36 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Prime example just a couple of threads up
"poll;How do teach emergency procedures?"
This guy take arrogance (and ignorance)to a whole new level.


Ron

Jun 21, 2010, 9:41 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If it is turbulant lower I do a normal pattern and come in double fronts for speed. Not a good idea?

No. You are changing the trim of the canopy and that can lead to a collapse. In turbulence the best thing to do is full flight and be ready to use the brakes to correct any issues.

On older big canopy's a little brakes can help keep the canopy inflated, but it is not needed on most modern canopy's.


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