Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana

 


gilead1  (D 26)

May 24, 2010, 11:25 PM
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icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana Can't Post

hello

I upsized from Stellito 89 to Katana 97 (load at 1.8) and I'm very disappointed, especially from the opening. any way I'm trying to decide between the Crossfire 2 and the Neos,
any opinions to share?


sparkie  (D License)

May 25, 2010, 12:18 AM
Post #2 of 79 (8442 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
hello

I upsized from Stellito 89 to Katana 97 (load at 1.8) and I'm very disappointed, especially from the opening. any way I'm trying to decide between the Crossfire 2 and the Neos,
any opinions to share?

I can only comment on the katana openings part of your post. I noticed that the more neatly i pack the shittier the opening gets. Also, I stuff the outer 4 cells on both sides into the center cell. That way it opens up nicely from the middle instead of one side of the canopy trying to fly before the other side.

I also never look up at the openings anymore and just push the risers out a little on opening.

I get good openings. I dont really mind if the opening is "off heading" I just go with it if it wants to go to one side. I used to fight it and had to cut away once as a result.

Once its flying its a dream.

For what it's worth, having never flown either the neos or the xfire2:
I noticed from looking at others flying the xfire it has a shorter recovery than the katana, it opens better than the katana

Neos: you don't see many of those, must have a reason. I asked for a demo 8 months ago, still no neos....


gilead1  (D 26)

May 25, 2010, 12:51 AM
Post #3 of 79 (8434 views)
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Re: [sparkie] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

 

... I stuff the outer 4 cells on both sides into the center cell...


interesting.... I didn't do it since the "Blue Track 40" (yeah yeah - Parachute De France) I had at 1994!!!
I'm going to give it a try this weekend,

Thanks

P.S
I don't mined to have off heading open, the problem is that when ut gos off heading it is very violent.


(This post was edited by gilead1 on May 25, 2010, 2:26 AM)


sparkie  (D License)

May 25, 2010, 1:51 AM
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah, that's exactly what I had before i stuffed the nose. Very "snappy" off headings at the end of the opening.

I kind of roll the noses of the 4 outer cells so they are easier to get into the center cell. When done it kinda looks like a part of a womans anatomy ;)

A while ago i thought the stuffing wasnt helping and i left the nose hanging out...again snappy off heading opening....


piisfish

May 25, 2010, 2:37 AM
Post #5 of 79 (8394 views)
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Re: [sparkie] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When done it kinda looks like a part of a womans anatomy ;)
sticky ? Laugh


AggieDave  (D License)

May 25, 2010, 2:43 AM
Post #6 of 79 (8390 views)
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Re: [sparkie] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I stuff the outer 4 cells on both sides into the center cell.

That something that we used to do to old worn out large sized Sabre1s. Really, though, I wouldn't do that to a Katana, that's a quick way to end up on your back spinning towards earth. Every Katana I've jumped I packed neatly and with a normal pro-pack. Every Katana I've jumped has opened very nicely that way.

If the OP wants another canopy, that's fine, but it makes me wonder if there is something wrong with the canopy he has that isn't specific to the model?


gilead1  (D 26)

May 25, 2010, 2:46 AM
Post #7 of 79 (8388 views)
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Re: [piisfish] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
When done it kinda looks like a part of a womans anatomy ;)
sticky ? Laugh

Well, I'm not sure about the sticky but if it have a bad smell send her to the gynecologist Angelic


piisfish

May 25, 2010, 2:58 AM
Post #8 of 79 (8384 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

would a riggerologist be enough ?

back to the thread :

the closest to the Stiletto in flying would be, in my opinion and given the selection of canopies, the Crossfire. The best openings also given my experience would definitely be the Crossfire. I would get the Crossfire if I were the OP. YMMV


rhys  (D 95)

May 25, 2010, 3:42 AM
Post #9 of 79 (8369 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Get a crossfire!


Premier grosfion  (D 24738)
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May 25, 2010, 3:51 AM
Post #10 of 79 (8367 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I jumped CF2 109, Neos 109 and Katana 120.
Out of them the CF109 is the most docile canopy with great openings. Some people say that the Neos has nice openings which I can not confirm (I had 10 out of 10 hard openings occasionally with stars in my eyes). Opening on the Katana was ok, but not as nice as the Stilletto 107 I jumped before.

There are a lot of discussions around the Neos here, but I'm very happy with my CF2 with nicer openings and lighter front riser pressure. On swoop performance the others might be better but I'm not that advanced that I can tell the difference.

blues,
Marcus


gilead1  (D 26)

May 25, 2010, 4:03 AM
Post #11 of 79 (8361 views)
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Re: [grosfion] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

O.K guys,

CF2 it will be, probably 99 (89 is still an option)

many thanks

Gilead


rhys  (D 95)

May 25, 2010, 4:33 AM
Post #12 of 79 (8350 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

what would the 89 be loaded @


Sangi

May 25, 2010, 4:40 AM
Post #13 of 79 (8351 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm surprised that at these many jumps you're not flying an xbrace Tongue


Premier grosfion  (D 24738)
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May 25, 2010, 4:46 AM
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Re: [rhys] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

by doing the math he should be around 1.96, I'm loading mine about the same and it is flying great.

M


gilead1  (D 26)

May 25, 2010, 4:52 AM
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Re: [Sangi] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm surprised that at these many jumps you're not flying an xbrace Tongue

I had about 3000 jumps on the Blue Track (50 & 40) and on the Pro 100 from Parachute De France. and if you jump even one jump on this kind of canopy you must know that my lower back and my neck can not stand a "snappy" opening with the video & stills camera Unsure


BMFin

May 25, 2010, 4:59 AM
Post #16 of 79 (8328 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Crossfire2 will give you very nice openings for sure. It is ideal for flying camera.

In terms of swooping, Icarus canopies all have shorter recovery arcs than PD canopies.
(XF2, Neos, VX, JVX vs. Katana, Velocity)

They just require a little bit different (maby a bit more precise) swooping technique.


Sangi

May 25, 2010, 5:00 AM
Post #17 of 79 (8326 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Well if your back needs some good care, then as people said, CF2 is the best choice.


rhys  (D 95)

May 25, 2010, 5:10 AM
Post #18 of 79 (8318 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had about 3000 jumps on the Blue Track (50 & 40) and on the Pro 100 from Parachute De France. and if you jump even one jump on this kind of canopy you must know that my lower back and my neck can not stand a "snappy" opening with the video & stills camera Unsure

Then get a JVX.

You will find the openings much nicer than a crossfire2 of that size loaded like that, you'll find the slider on a small crossfire is also quite small, while the slider on a JXV of the same size will be almost as big as a tandem slider.

They open marvelously, my slider is 60cm x 90cm. My wife has a crossfire2 89, it opens brisk with me on it loading it at 2.2 and the slider is quite small (too small imho).

Something to think about.

I have had 3 JVX's and my most recent (a 79) has the largest slider of them all.


(This post was edited by rhys on May 25, 2010, 5:15 AM)


flyhi  (D License)

May 25, 2010, 6:06 AM
Post #19 of 79 (8289 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I went from a Vengeance to a Katana. I think the openings on the Katana (WL 1.8) are very docile.

Tried to test jump a CF2, but no joy with the rep. Even went so far as to send him my MC number.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

May 25, 2010, 6:35 AM
Post #20 of 79 (8273 views)
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Re: [rhys] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I had about 3000 jumps on the Blue Track (50 & 40) and on the Pro 100 from Parachute De France. and if you jump even one jump on this kind of canopy you must know that my lower back and my neck can not stand a "snappy" opening with the video & stills camera

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Then get a JVX.


Actually, the new JFX is the canopy to get for the best openings..
Lugi is now juming one along with Crazy Larry.
I have one on order,


Cheers,
MEL


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

May 25, 2010, 8:44 AM
Post #21 of 79 (8228 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Tony Uragallo (Tony Suits) jumps a new JFX and he said he really likes it. Almost all of his jumps are in a wingsuit nowadays by the way.


gilead1  (D 26)

May 25, 2010, 9:21 AM
Post #22 of 79 (8215 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

No shit... Wingsuit with Xbrace....???
And I was sure that wingsuit flyers preferable canopy is 7 cells.

The JFX is so good???
is it really open on heading or Tony take his chances??


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

May 25, 2010, 9:37 AM
Post #23 of 79 (8204 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No shit... Wingsuit with Xbrace....???
And I was sure that wingsuit flyers preferable canopy is 7 cells.

The JFX is so good???
is it really open on heading or Tony take his chances??


Well first off, Tony is not the average Wingsuiter.

I would not recommend it, but maybe some people like Tony, may prefer the JFX.

As far as Video fliers and consistent on-heading openings, it is the sweetest, smoothest, on-heading canopy I've seen to this day. .....And yes better than the Crossfire II.


Cheers,
MEL


gilead1  (D 26)

May 25, 2010, 10:11 AM
Post #24 of 79 (8192 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

O.K
Now a new factor to the equation:
what about the Xaos-21?


zxcvb  (C 22432)

May 25, 2010, 10:15 AM
Post #25 of 79 (8190 views)
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Re: [Sangi] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well if your back needs some good care, then as people said, CF2 is the best choice.

Sangi, could you share with us how many jumps on the CF2 you have? And what about on the other canopies he is asking about?


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

May 25, 2010, 10:18 AM
Post #26 of 79 (4880 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
O.K
Now a new factor to the equation:
what about the Xaos-21?

The Kaos 21 was included into my evaluation as well.

BS,
MEL


sparkie  (D License)

May 25, 2010, 11:32 AM
Post #27 of 79 (4854 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I stuff the outer 4 cells on both sides into the center cell.

That something that we used to do to old worn out large sized Sabre1s. Really, though, I wouldn't do that to a Katana, that's a quick way to end up on your back spinning towards earth. Every Katana I've jumped I packed neatly and with a normal pro-pack. Every Katana I've jumped has opened very nicely that way.

If the OP wants another canopy, that's fine, but it makes me wonder if there is something wrong with the canopy he has that isn't specific to the model?

hmm, must be my kat is getting old then. sn 78 ;)


NeverTooLow

Jun 1, 2010, 4:59 AM
Post #28 of 79 (4581 views)
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Re: [sparkie] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Same with me, got about 900 jumps on different size Katanas (107 and 97) and had not one hard opening and only once a spinning mal.
Never try to correct the canopy during opening by pulling the risers or so, makes it only go bad.
Just let it go for a little off heading, you don`t use it for base jumping!?

Love to fly it, fits my flying way better than the crossfire.
No comments on neos, that I will be testing this season on a festival...


gilead1  (D 26)

Jun 1, 2010, 6:36 AM
Post #29 of 79 (4557 views)
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Re: [NeverTooLow] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Never try to correct the canopy during opening by pulling the risers or so, makes it only go bad.
Just let it go for a little off heading.

Well, I tried this technique for some time - didn't work for me Frown If Im not "steering" the opennig with the risers it will spin very bad, some times more then 360 and very violent,

any way - I think I'll try the FX or XAOS-21, laoded @ approx 1.9,


divegoddess  (C 32724)

Jun 1, 2010, 8:46 AM
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive recently switched to a Katana wing. At first I felt the same way about the openings. I felt as though I was wrestling with the canopy for the entire deployment to keep it on a heading. I was also told not to try and steer through the opening....In general I think people tend to fear the unfamiliar. After almost 1000 jumps on a sabre 2 in the same size there was nothing about this canopy that was familiar.
After I put 20 or so jumps on the wing I found the openings to be nothing short of an unstoppable force of awesomeness....after 100 jumps on the wing I am finding that the more I fly it the more I just love this wing. It's very responsive to harness and toggles, light front riser pressure, a nice recovery arc.....I've not felt this connected to a wing in my short skydiving carreer so far.....I'm really glad I gave it a chance and didn't cast it aside thnking I hated the openings. I had alot of people tell me I'd hate them! BUT now that I've gotten a bit more comfortable on the wing my openings are soft and on heading.
I love my new Katana =)
BTW I do not do anything to the nose. I make sure the nose is flaked nealty and I open the center cell up to encourage the canopy to inflate from the center out...but I NEVER roll,tuck, or do any sort of shoving....let the nose do it's job...don't hide it from the relative wind.
with over 4000 jumps I am sure your body position is not the cause. You could just have an angry canopy.
if you feel it is the canopy call PD.


Jumpah  (D License)

Jun 1, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm on a Katana 150 (1.6 loading), and love the openings. I don't do anyting special with the nose other than ensure it is neat, slider neatly quartered and against the grommets, and I double stow all lines except the center locking stow (habit...don't think this matters much). I use up rubber bands fast, fortunately the DZ I jump at gives them away to help with safety.

When I first jumped it I was using risers to fly on heading during deployment and got spun up badly once, and nearly a couple other times. Reading the Katana manual I found that PD has a recommendation here:

"...will get the best results by keeping your shoulders level as the deployment bag lifts off of your back and keeping your weight even in the harness until the slider comes down. "Steering" with the risers before the slider comes down or allowing your weight to shift excessively can actually cause or exaggerate off-heading openings"

The fact that i'm on a bigger canopy may be a key difference, tho the PD manual says nothing different about the Katana sizes and things like openings. The 150 has mesh along two sides of the slider which is not on the smaller sizes.

Hope it all works out


melushell  (D 28650)

Jun 2, 2010, 11:06 AM
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Re: [Jumpah] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

XF 119 - 500 jumps
XF 2 99 - 800 jumps
katana 97/120 - 12 jumps
Neos 84 - 1000 jumps

i can call myself an Icarus 'fan', and that is mainly because i am a p%^sy when it comes to openings and my back , and Icarus really knows how to treat this well

obviously from your selection XF will open the best, now you need to think about what you want from your canopy

i got a neos 84 more than a year ago, and man believe me that is a canopy i am not going to sell EVER!
amazing openings, super stable wing, long recovery arch and pretty good response on rear risers for getting you out of the corner
i do longer swoops with it than some guys with 'serious' crossbraced wings out there (but that is mainly for knowing the wing very well)

i consider this model to be the perferct workhor(s)e for a guy that does more than 1000 jumps a year on his own rig


katana? no thank you, is juts a mushroom with sharp name

where are you jumping? trying them is your best bet


(This post was edited by melushell on Jun 2, 2010, 11:08 AM)


gilead1  (D 26)

Jun 2, 2010, 12:25 PM
Post #33 of 79 (4315 views)
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Re: [melushell] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

first of all - I think you should update your profile (You have more jumps on the Neos than you have on the profile...) Wink

And now back to the subject -The main issue with the Neos is the inconsistent reports about the opening, some people say its grate but other say it is very bad (just like the reports about the Katana) I think i'll try the XAOS-21 or the JFX.

Thanks

p.s
I dont think there is a demo Neos canopy in Perris, if there is I'll try it for sure


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jun 2, 2010, 1:21 PM
Post #34 of 79 (4299 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The main issue with the Neos is the inconsistent reports about the opening, some people say its grate but other say it is very bad (just like the reports about the Katana)

You're going to find people say bad things about just any canopy - likewise there will be those who say good things about the same canopy.

You really just need to demo all the different kinds, and see which one YOU like best. It's really just that simple.

Blues,
Ian


melushell  (D 28650)

Jun 2, 2010, 2:01 PM
Post #35 of 79 (4292 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
first of all - I think you should update your profile (You have more jumps on the Neos than you have on the profile...) Wink

nice, you got the most out of my post

back to the main subject
like i said you should definetly define what you want from the canopy in very clear terms

we are very lucky to live times were custom needs are an available option, just pay the price for it Smile


trigger  (D 101390)

Jun 2, 2010, 2:09 PM
Post #36 of 79 (4281 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Broken my back.. cf2 since 2003Wink
More info about JFX please, you never know one day, maybeWink


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Jun 7, 2010, 12:35 PM
Post #37 of 79 (4038 views)
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Re: [trigger] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
More info about JFX please, you never know one day, maybeWink

Your missus will never allow it! Anyway, you need to start jumping properly again. Tongue


trigger  (D 101390)

Jun 8, 2010, 10:52 AM
Post #38 of 79 (3947 views)
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Re: [Pendragon] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Anything useful to add.


sidarapr  (D 28481)

Jun 8, 2010, 2:33 PM
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Katana 89 vs. CF2 92 demo 2006. I purchased the (used) Katana 89 from PD with brand new HMA’s as I enjoyed the flight characteristics quite a bit more, being a more aggressive canopy with a longer recovery arc and greater speed range. Early on it was very easy to interpret and the learning curve was super short. I had previously owned a Cobalt 105 (~450 jumps). The openings were very good (relatively speaking) until about jump 60 then it started to get funky, shortly after every opening induced a line twist. After doing multiple hop-n-pops and video of the openings no one could see anything I was doing to create the issue. I cut away after a severe spinning-line twist. Immediately I sent it to PD, upon visual inspection they could not see anything evident. After jumping it PD understood my concern, keeping it for two weeks they determined an issue with the brake line(s) and that the slider was too small. PD fixed it, no charge other than shipping and it opened fantastic. Nothing out of the normal in packing it, just very relaxed in the harness on opening during its “normal” searching . I purchased another PD last year largely because of their commitment to quality and customer service. I would try another Katana if the interest is still there.
The CF2 opened nothing short of incredible. IMO it is the best all around canopy on the market. If I were flying camera this would certainly be my choice. It wanted to recover quicker than the Katana which you could seemingly hang onto the front risers all day long. Rear risers were solid with the Katana’s being softer and requiring a bit more attention. I had requested a NEOS demo and was not provided an availability date. Called a few times after, in finally reaching someone the answer was much the same. Hence, when I purchased another canopy last year as mentioned I went with PD again. A guy at my DZ had been jumping CF’s and moved to the NEOS and loved it (camera flyer).
If you want Velocity like speed then the Katana is it. If you want performance and incredible openings then it’s the CF2.
Hoped that helped a bit, Regards.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 11, 2010, 8:54 AM
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Re: icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the Katana really a comparable canopy to the Neos? I would have thought that the Neos would be closer to a Velocity.

I am only basing this on the cross-bracing. I have not flown either wing, although I plan to move to a Katana after my Sabre2. I don't know very much about the Neos, but was wondering where it fits in.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Jun 11, 2010, 9:04 AM
Post #41 of 79 (3821 views)
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Re: [DocPop] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you wait on the Katana until you have several hundred more jumps. The Katana is not an intermediate wing.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 11, 2010, 9:05 AM
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Re: [tetra316] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Understood.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Jun 11, 2010, 9:09 AM
Post #43 of 79 (3818 views)
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Re: [DocPop] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Just checkingTongue


LetsGoOutside  (D License)

Jun 15, 2010, 5:28 PM
Post #44 of 79 (3645 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
hello

I upsized from Stellito 89 to Katana 97 (load at 1.8) and I'm very disappointed, especially from the opening. any way I'm trying to decide between the Crossfire 2 and the Neos,
any opinions to share?
What kind of line do you have? HMA 500 seems to give noticeably better openings on the KA. Don't cover the nose or shove it into the pack job, either, The canopy has a decent opening duration as is, so doing anything to slow it down will likely affect heading. I've got 400+ Katana openings/flights with a wingsuit without issue.

No Neos experience, but can tell you the Katana and Crossfire are basically in different classes from each other. Katana is a beast. Much faster and more aggressive flight than the Crossfire. Crossfire is the more well-rounded canopy. Katana (my preference) needs a bit more attention. Not quite Velocity, but close-ish.


(This post was edited by LetsGoOutside on Jun 15, 2010, 5:36 PM)


gilead1  (D 26)

Jun 16, 2010, 8:31 AM
Post #45 of 79 (3560 views)
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Re: [LetsGoOutside] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

well, this is exactly the way i pack it and yet i have mor then 50% of heading openings,

any way i'm thinking of change it to a XAOS-21 or FX\JFX,
going to jump the FX 94 this weekend Laugh


LetsGoOutside  (D License)

Jun 22, 2010, 2:44 PM
Post #46 of 79 (3426 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
well, this is exactly the way i pack it and yet i have mor then 50% of heading openings,

any way i'm thinking of change it to a XAOS-21 or FX\JFX,
going to jump the FX 94 this weekend Laugh
Hmmm... might be worth sending to PD for inspection then. Even when my spectra was going out of trim (on HMA now) my off-heading rate was way less than that.

Have fun with the FX!


gilead1  (D 26)

Dec 30, 2010, 11:08 PM
Post #47 of 79 (2898 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Well,
since someone brought this post up I decided to share the outcome - XAOS-21 94 loaded @ 1.98.
Although I didn't think a crossbrace as an option I had to try it after this post and I must say that it is the sweetest canopy ever!!!

thanks you all for the inputs that helped me choose this canopy :)

Happy New Year


krisco  (C 3244)

Jan 22, 2011, 12:39 PM
Post #48 of 79 (2579 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Good choice on the Xaos 21
I just got a 108 loaded at 2.2 and I love it!!
JFX is next on the list to try


killen1970

Jan 27, 2011, 2:21 PM
Post #49 of 79 (2435 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow Tony has always been a PD guy he might have been the first person I see jumping a velo. JFX sounds very interesting I put my velo in the closet got tired of opening fear 2 chops in 25 jumps. Of course probably all my fault.


In reply to:
Tony Uragallo (Tony Suits) jumps a new JFX and he said he really likes it. Almost all of his jumps are in a wingsuit nowadays by the way.


gilead1  (D 26)

Jan 27, 2011, 2:39 PM
Post #50 of 79 (2431 views)
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Re: [killen1970] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow Tony has always been a PD guy he might have been the first person I see jumping a velo. JFX sounds very interesting I put my velo in the closet got tired of opening fear 2 chops in 25 jumps. Of course probably all my fault.


Well, all I can tell you is that the Xaos 21 opening are the sweetest I ever have... Cant ask for better


Brumby  (C 104799)

Jan 30, 2011, 2:29 PM
Post #51 of 79 (2705 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

That something that we used to do to old worn out large sized Sabre1s. Really, though, I wouldn't do that to a Katana, that's a quick way to end up on your back spinning towards earth. Every Katana I've jumped I packed neatly and with a normal pro-pack. Every Katana I've jumped has opened very nicely that way.

Ive packed many many many Katanas and up untill about 6 months ago had never jumped 1. i do think though that depending on how they are loaded depends on many different aspects......e.g lightly load it and they are forgiving, bulk it up and they twitch like hell. trick is tho, dont look and dont touch and u wont get wrong. sounds like a relationship but it works


Wesly.VG  (D License)

Feb 11, 2011, 7:20 AM
Post #52 of 79 (2569 views)
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Re: [Brumby] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

The Belgian Hayabusa's are all jumping the Neos. They used to jump Velocity. Since i know them well i asked them how they think about the Neos. They all love the Neos. In the beginning 2 of them had sometimes trouble with hard openings but this disappeared. Performance is between Katana and Velocity.

A friend of mine jumps Velocity Comp. and a Neos.
Velocity for swooping competition and Neos when he is doing other stuff. He also likes the Neos.. Great performance and perfect openings.

Then hearing about this great Neos, i got myself a demo (89). Did 50 hop 'n pops and about 10 terminal jumps on it.. From the first jump i knew this was the canopy i want to be jumping forever :-) I never had one bad opening, always on heading an what a performance! I would do wingsuit jumps with this canopy, for which i can't say about my katana..

Just this week i ordered myself a brand new Neos 94 and i can't wait to get it.


Marc84

Feb 11, 2011, 11:02 AM
Post #53 of 79 (2539 views)
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Re: [rhys] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Then get a JVX.

You will find the openings much nicer than a crossfire2 of that size loaded like that, you'll find the slider on a small crossfire is also quite small, while the slider on a JXV of the same size will be almost as big as a tandem slider.

They open marvelously, my slider is 60cm x 90cm. My wife has a crossfire2 89, it opens brisk with me on it loading it at 2.2 and the slider is quite small (too small imho).

Something to think about.

I have had 3 JVX's and my most recent (a 79) has the largest slider of them all.

My JVX 72 Opened so hard!!! I would strongly recommend not getting that canopy... Since my JVX 72 opened so hard i bought a 74 Neos for non-competition jumping... The Neos is a very nice opening canopy... the The Belgian team Hayabusa is using them and enjoying them...


HALO1  (D License)

Feb 11, 2011, 4:51 PM
Post #54 of 79 (2494 views)
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Re: [Wesly.VG] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok… My $0.02 on Neos. I have a new Neos, amongst my other Icarus canopies, and am having one HELL of a problem resolving hard opening issues. It’s bad enough that I’m “testing” custom slider configurations (through Icarus) to stop the “slammers”. I won’t go into details about everything we’ve done to try and resolve the issue before trying custom sliders, but suffice it to say, everything has been considered/tried… even down to videoing body position. Up to now, nothing has helping and am on the verge of returning for refund.

Like Wesly, I too demoed the shit out of a Neos and was thoroughly impressed. So impressed I ordered one. The demo had XF2 like openings, excellent riser pressure, nice recovery arc, incredible flare power, long beautiful swoops, etc.

Recognizing that every now and then a subpar canopy does get manufactured and sold (even Velo’s!!), I think the Neos is a great all around, everyday canopy to include fulltime camera work. Although I personally wouldn’t use for wingsuiting.

As a side note… had the JFX been available, I would have seriously considered that (after demoing) in lieu of Neos. Yeah I know… Two different companies.

Cheers.

BTW: PM me if you’ve solved a HARD opening Neos issue. Would love your input.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Feb 12, 2011, 4:27 AM
Post #55 of 79 (2452 views)
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Re: [Marc84] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I find my jvx opening to be soft as crossfire.
What year is your jvx 72 made????
Everyone i know with one raves about its opening.


bofh  (D 13995)

Feb 13, 2011, 11:52 AM
Post #56 of 79 (2391 views)
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Re: [HALO1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Recognizing that every now and then a subpar canopy does get manufactured and sold (even Velo’s!!), I think the Neos is a great all around, everyday canopy to include fulltime camera work.

I think it is more than just some subpar canopies.

I have only met four persons that have gotten Neoses and all four of them have returned them because of the hard openings. They all opened great in the beginning (my best opening ever was on one of those Neoses) but after a while they started to open hard. One injured his neck, another broke some ribs (after gotten it back from the company where they had inspected it and found no problems...).

A while a go I got a PM from someone that had altered the length of the steering line and thus gotten it to open great again, but my friends just exchanged their Neos against crossfires instead.


rhys  (D 95)

Feb 13, 2011, 12:37 PM
Post #57 of 79 (2379 views)
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Re: [Marc84] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My JVX 72 Opened so hard!!! I would strongly recommend not getting that canopy... Since my JVX 72 opened so hard i bought a 74 Neos for non-competition jumping... The Neos is a very nice opening canopy... the The Belgian team Hayabusa is using them and enjoying them...

Then there was either something wrong with the canopies construction or the way it was packed.

If you had extremely hard openings and failed to contact the manufacturer and simply changed/downgraded to a neos... then your loss.

I know plenty of peope tht us a JVX for everyday jumping, beautiful openings with camera gear etc. etc.

Parachutes are made by hand and packed by hand.

I have heard the same about Neos' as well, in fact a workmate of mine had to take time off from constistantly hard Neos openings, while other neos open great...

Hard openings can be caused by different factors but if a JVX is opening hard consistantly, then it should be sent beck to the manufacturer for analysis.

Did you contact aerosports about it?


(This post was edited by rhys on Feb 13, 2011, 5:15 PM)


flatout

Mar 14, 2011, 3:28 AM
Post #58 of 79 (2192 views)
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Re: [rhys] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Having had a rocky beginning at the start of my relationship with a NEOS109, I am now ready to give the vows…..

Having received the canopy, I did suffer some cracking opening-explosions with corresponding visuals (STARS everywhere….), however I loved the flight characteristics so much, that I tried different packing methods to avoid the opening shock. Having done some 60-70 odd jumps on this wing, I am now fairly confident, that figured- out the important tricks and constant soft, on-heading openings over the last 30 jumps or so, seem to proof me right.
1) Very important, when packing the canopy, try to fold the Slider-triangle more on the canopy tail-end of the pack-job, not towards the nose section. My theory is, that the big slider burbles the nose section of the canopy when it opens, thereby provoking a sudden inflation, when the slider moves down.
2) Very, very important is to close the top-sheet of the canopy over the slider grommets!!! If you can see any metal or indeed a small piece of slider-fabric when placing the canopy into the d-bag, your in for a knock out opening!!! Also, close the top-sheet with at least four twists over the slider grommets, the better you close the top sheet, the less likely you’ll have a hard opening.

Paying attention to these two points helped me to finally be a fully-satisfied NEOS-flyer!


Premier grosfion  (D 24738)
Moderator
Mar 14, 2011, 7:52 AM
Post #59 of 79 (2152 views)
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Re: [flatout] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Was trying that Neos as well and after 8 jumps seeing stars after opening, gave up. It is flying great but did not have the patience to find out the proper packing technique.

Glad that it works for you, it is really fun to fly.

blues,
Marcus


Nukrites  (D 30239)

Mar 14, 2011, 9:48 AM
Post #60 of 79 (2127 views)
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Re: [flatout] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I own Neos-94 loading 2.26, have ~400 jumps on it, had couple hard openings at first, no real trick in packing it, I make sure that slider quatert and is pulled out little, like an inch or 2 forward, I deploy in a track with no problem :) On heading, soft openings always


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 14, 2011, 10:03 AM
Post #61 of 79 (2120 views)
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Re: [piisfish] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the closest to the Stiletto in flying would be, in my opinion and given the selection of canopies, the Crossfire.

I agree with that, but the OP didn't say what he was looking for.

The post can't be replied to really without his goals in mind - the Stiletto and the Katana have very different flight design priorities as far as I can tell. they are both great for what they are designed for, but they have really different missions, IMO.


flatout

Mar 14, 2011, 11:17 PM
Post #62 of 79 (2050 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

just to proove a point, nothin wrong with the openings here
Attachments: neos_opening.jpg (288 KB)


groundrush87  (D 31095)

Mar 15, 2011, 4:02 AM
Post #63 of 79 (2019 views)
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Re: [flatout] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Same great openings here. Split rolled nose and put in center cell like someone previously mentioned for the sabre gives a reaallyy long snivel. Thinking about trying it without.
Attachments: IMG_9152.JPG (29.4 KB)
  IMG_9412.JPG (47.9 KB)


groundrush87  (D 31095)

Mar 15, 2011, 6:33 PM
Post #64 of 79 (1917 views)
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Re: [groundrush87] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I meant to say I get great,,, but really long/soft openings on mine by split rolling the nose into the center cell as a previous poster mentioned for old sabres. You all might try it out if you wish, i think it works well and causes the canopy to have only one way of pressurizing, which is from the center out. Here is a youtube link explaining what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b049yxyUlUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_83SvolUEg

Try those vids out. Put a couple of jumps on your neos' after packing that way and see what you think.


HALO1  (D License)

Mar 17, 2011, 4:35 PM
Post #65 of 79 (1846 views)
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Re: [flatout] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Flatout - Glad to hear your Neos is working out. I finally had to return mine to Icarus (Cisma). I will agree with the rest of the comments here... Once open it's a fantastic canopy.

Something else strikes me as well... I would think the shear number of hard opening reports would prompt Icarus and/or Cisma to take a really hard look at this wing.

Switching to the JFX... where Cisma is NOT involved.


flatout

Mar 18, 2011, 3:16 AM
Post #66 of 79 (1809 views)
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Re: [HALO1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that the manufacturer has re-sized the slider a couple of years ago in order to prevent those opening-bombs (the slider is HUGE).

Judging from all the comments though, it didn't seem provide a "fool-proove" solution!

Is that also the reason why that canopy is not promoted by Icarus more laudly ?? But then again, why would a manufacturer want a "semi-faulty" canopy in thier product line. I am sure that Icarus is convinced that this wing works perfectly, otherwise it'll be reckless on their part.

Would be nice to hear an Icarus statement about this whole thing......


daleskydive  (E License)

Apr 26, 2012, 11:09 PM
Post #67 of 79 (1457 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

How about a JFX or Xaos. I have not jumped either but hear they open nice and soft


aaroncosbey  (D 108444)

May 3, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #68 of 79 (1257 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

You cant pack the NEOS like a X-fire - however if you pack like this:

http://www.youtube.com/...CAieIitziofyM9kWpmEA

It will open soft and on-heading everytime.

I'd go with the NEOS over the Xfire and Kat everytime.

Smile


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 3, 2012, 9:54 AM
Post #69 of 79 (1217 views)
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Re: [aaroncosbey] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You cant pack the NEOS like a X-fire - however if you pack like this:

http://www.youtube.com/...CAieIitziofyM9kWpmEA

It will open soft and on-heading everytime.

I'd go with the NEOS over the Xfire and Kat everytime.

Smile
Is this rolling the nose BS never die? You got a device which controls the speed of opening. Why to fix something which is ain't broken? Why do you think that your roll has any effect in 100 mph wind?

I got a jump on Neos 104. I've packed like anything else. It opened soft and swiveled long.


mircan  (D 32291)

May 3, 2012, 11:07 AM
Post #70 of 79 (1210 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You cant pack the NEOS like a X-fire - however if you pack like this:

http://www.youtube.com/...CAieIitziofyM9kWpmEA

It will open soft and on-heading everytime.

I'd go with the NEOS over the Xfire and Kat everytime.

Smile
Is this rolling the nose BS never die? You got a device which controls the speed of opening. Why to fix something which is ain't broken? Why do you think that your roll has any effect in 100 mph wind?

I got a jump on Neos 104. I've packed like anything else. It opened soft and swiveled long.

Well, buddy of mine is considering every option after last weekend. It`s Neos 104 after line mod.

This is the video from last jump on Saturday.

And this is the video from last jump on Sunday Pirate

Maybe it`s not the canopy, but the packing...
OTOH, he DOES pack slow and takes his time, everytime.Unsure


aaroncosbey  (D 108444)

May 4, 2012, 2:31 AM
Post #71 of 79 (1150 views)
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Re: [mircan] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

HA! That sunday vid reminds me of the early days.

My NEOS was one of the 1st to get the line mod serial #20110001

Dont get me wrong - you can pack it normal and it might open nice/positive 10 times in a row - however it will bite you sooner or later.

I found ive you roll the nose and make sure the slider is quartered/and pulled forward a little (make it look like a girls front bottom upside down), the openings are long, on heading and consistant. Wink


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 4, 2012, 2:53 AM
Post #72 of 79 (1146 views)
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Re: [aaroncosbey] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I found ive you roll the nose and make sure the slider is quartered/and pulled forward a little (make it look like a girls front bottom upside down), the openings are long, on heading and consistant. Wink

Think. A hat would fly off your head even from a hop-and-pop jump. Why do you think your roll would stay intact in a 100 mph wind?

I don't mind if you even run 3 rounds around your rig clockwise if that gives you better opening.


5.samadhi

May 4, 2012, 3:32 AM
Post #73 of 79 (1143 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been told by some pretty experienced people that if you roll in and leave the center cell unrolled (assuming what we're talking about here) then the center cell inflates first and the pressure against the outer cells from the inflating center cell will hold the rolls in better allowing them not to catch air and rush the slider down.

You seem pretty dead set on believing your view though.


mircan  (D 32291)

May 4, 2012, 3:57 AM
Post #74 of 79 (1135 views)
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Re: [aaroncosbey] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Incosistency is the issue here. One time out of 10 you get slammer. Otherwise nice long openings.

I jumped that Neos myself couple of times, it`s real sweet canopy. Just those openings...

This makes me think it`s something about packing. We`ll see about that packing once my buddy fix his neck.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 4, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #75 of 79 (1120 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You seem pretty dead set on believing your view though.

As long as you find good reasons for convincing me otherwise.

So what would keep your rolls intact? Specially on a long sniveling canopy?


5.samadhi

May 4, 2012, 10:21 AM
Post #76 of 79 (952 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

well you can go back above and reread my post. I think I said the theory that was proposed to me pretty clearly. The guy that told me this theory had been in the sport 30+ years so I was listening at least. He claimed that even if you got a fraction of a second hesitation in the outer cells inflating it would keep the slider up a little longer and slow the opening down on fast opening canopies.

I'm not sure whats the point though unless you're really just stuck with a trash canopy. Modern skydiving canopies won't need these kinds of tricks. If they do its a reason to not buy them.


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 4, 2012, 10:30 PM
Post #77 of 79 (901 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

rolliing should not matter, but when I was jumping saber 1 that opened brisk every single time, rolling the nose inward helped.

I think certainly it will open faster if you open up the nose wide open outward like reserve pack job.

what I learn after jumping hard opening canopy was, whatever you do it will open hard. sell em and buy something else.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on May 4, 2012, 10:33 PM)


aussiechick  (D License)

Jul 20, 2012, 3:15 AM
Post #78 of 79 (712 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
rolliing should not matter, but when I was jumping saber 1 that opened brisk every single time, rolling the nose inward helped.

I think certainly it will open faster if you open up the nose wide open outward like reserve pack job.

what I learn after jumping hard opening canopy was, whatever you do it will open hard. sell em and buy something else.

+1


alexispainchaud  (C 3202)

Aug 21, 2012, 12:24 PM
Post #79 of 79 (499 views)
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Re: [gilead1] icaros crossfire VS neos VS Katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I have about 200 jumps on a Katana 120, then 250 on a Katana 107 loaded at 2.1. I did get some slightly off heading opening consistently, and every once in a while, the off heading was a bit more snappy. It never caused any malfuncton, but a few neck aches, no more.

I love the control, the response, recovery arc, light riser pressure, harness sensitivity of my Ka107. The only thing, which I find to be considerable, is that I found it to be ungrateful:
My last 100 jumps, I've been doing 450 on harness with a light whip of the front riser in the end. Everything goes well, but then when I start flaring on the back risers, then brakes and it feels like it's dying pretty quickly.

The canopy has now about 800 jumps, and the lines about 400. Lines could be a factor.

I loved this canopy, but I felt like I was doing everything right and it did not give me THAT much.

Just did my fiorst jump with my new velo 103, so it's back to basics but I'm already in love.

So anyway, not looking at my canopy on opening, staying very relaxed and not minding much about the swivel, I find the Katana to be fun to control, and an OK swooping canopy, in its class, no more.



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