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PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack

 

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rendezvous  (C License)

Aug 28, 2001, 12:52 PM
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PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack Can't Post

Is there any difference in how these two techniques affect the canopy while opening. What are the pros and cons of these two techniques. Can both of them be used on a Triathlon 175 main.



Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Aug 28, 2001, 1:07 PM
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Re: PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Your first stop should be the Aerodyne Research, the manufacturer. Email them here.

Generally speaking, the manufacturer will have the "best" way of packing their own equipment.

Aerodyne also sells a packing video Here.

Getting this type of information from unknown people off the web is dubious at best.


Paul

futurecam.com/skydive.html


spectre230
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Aug 28, 2001, 1:23 PM
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mountainman  (A License)

Aug 28, 2001, 1:37 PM
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In reply to:
Can both of them be used on a Triathlon 175 main.
From what I've heard, Triathlon mains do NOT have packing tabs on them. That would make flat packing much harder. Make sure you check it out for sure.

--------------
New design.....AGAIN!!!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 28, 2001, 4:15 PM
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Re: PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

>Is there any difference in how these two techniques affect the canopy while opening.

Whichever one gives you a neater pack job, with better control of the nose, slider and lines, will give you a better opening.

> What are the pros and cons of these two techniques.

Flat pack - Easier to see all parts of the pack job. Easier to inspect topside of canopy. Easier to spot line problems.

Pro pack - Faster. Recommended by most canopy manufacturers. Generally gives you more control over your opening.

>Can both of them be used on a Triathlon 175 main.

Aerodyne recommends a pro pack, but I have used both on a Tri190 and they both work just fine.

-bill von


rendezvous  (C License)

Aug 29, 2001, 7:12 AM
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Re: PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks everyone. I'm trying to learn PRO packing. At the moment I make quite mess of it but I guess I'll
eventually get a hold on it.



riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 1, 2001, 9:56 AM
Post #7 of 32 (7251 views)
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Re: PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats rendezvous,
You have already learned how to trash pack!
Now you have to refine your technique until it is neat enough to be called a PRO Pack.
To further confuse you, there are almost a dozen recognized variations on PRO Packing called Wolmari, Psycho, trash, etc.
They all work, but some methods work better with specific canopies.
Triathlons open well with almost any pack job. Like the earlier dude said: use whichever method maintains the best control of lines and slider when you shove it into the bag.



jaybird  (D 24977)

Sep 4, 2001, 8:10 PM
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i like the material control of the psycho pack. that is what i have used on my last 175 jumps, without any problems that some think happen with this type of pack job. i actually prefer how my psycho pack opens vs. the traditional pro pack.

just me though, you have to jump your pack job, so do what you feel comfortable with

jaybird



lazerq3  (C -34113)

Sep 4, 2001, 9:50 PM
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In reply to:
I'm trying to learn PRO packing. At the moment I make quite mess of it but I guess I'll
Do they ever look pretty??? THats how I was taught was to pro pack and to me I'm just sticking my arm into an orginzed mess of material flipping a little here flacking a little there folding some WAAAAAY over there and then throwing the whole damn thing on the ground and bunching up into a ball and stuffing it in a bag. Nothing pretty about that but. However no mals to date so far. just do what feels right!

jason




FallingMarc  (B 25542)

Sep 10, 2001, 5:56 PM
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Eh... I watched Pack Like a Pro a few times now, then tried to pack while watching it, and now I'm sitting in my room with my Triathlon in a small pile next to me. I did it on Saturday with someone walking me through it, but on my own here, even with the video, it just seems to fall apart when I try to fold it into the bag... and I can't tell what the hell he's doing when he makes the last S-fold on either side, he reaches under something, grabs the D lines, then flicks his elbow and there's suddenly a nice neat s-fold with no lines in the way. When I do it I end up with a very pretty mess of tail and stabilizer, with canopy fabric all through the lines...

Guess I'll keep practicing... and I'll flat pack it to take it to the DZ this weekend, because I know it'll at least open that way... Crazy

Marc



Grogs  (D 24265)

Sep 11, 2001, 6:09 AM
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In reply to:
Do they ever look pretty???
LOL. You should watch me pack a tandem sometime. 384 sq. feet of fabric blowing out of the bag in every imaginable direction. I used to feel really bad about it until I watched some actual tandem masters pack and their pack jobs looked worse than mine.

IMO, packing is an art, not a science. As long as you do the things you have to do (like preventing the lines from getting in front of the nose), everything will be fine. 90% or so of what we do is just fluff to get the chute in the bag easier. Some of my worst looking pack jobs have gotten the best compliments from the people jumping them.



Premier Skymonkeyone  (D 12501)

Sep 11, 2001, 7:28 AM
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In reply to:
384 sq. feet of fabric blowing out of the bag in every imaginable direction. I used to feel really bad about it until I watched some actual tandem masters pack
Dude, that is a personal problem. I am a Vector tandem bitch and I flat pack ALL my tandems and ALL student mains. I have not ever packed a malfunction in over 20 years and I pack FAST. As stated in another post, it is easier to see all the parts of your parachute if you flat pack or "roll" pack. I personally would not PRO pack any parachute bigger than about 120 square feet. If I can't pick in up to waist-level and have it off the ground, then it is just too big to mess with and I will flat pack it. My wife flat packs her Stiletto, as does the majority of the Golden Knights cometition team.

As for "lack of packing tabs", we do not have packing tabs on our MC-4 HALO rigs, but flat pack them. Stilettos obviously don't have packing tabs stock, but we sewed them on my wife's canopy in about an hour. Hey, that's what she wanted.

Chuck



skydive4play  (C 31221)

Sep 12, 2001, 5:52 AM
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The MC-4 is a 370 sqr.ft. canopy and the Army flat packs all their rigs. That is their SOP. As for the Golden Knights, they still work under the Army there for they flat pack their rigs too. The Navy with their MC-1 370 sqr. ft. conopy roll packs their rigs.. But the Leap Frogs can pack "PRO" or Flat or Roll, due to the fact that they are jumping non standard gear.



mountainman  (A License)

Sep 12, 2001, 7:18 AM
Post #14 of 32 (7072 views)
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Re: PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Since I'll be getting my rig soon enough, I am wondering then, is it hard to pack a ZP flatpack style? I have just heard that since semi/full elip canopies are harder to pack since they have different cell lengths.

Thoughts?

--------------
Boogie pics coming!!!


Premier Skymonkeyone  (D 12501)

Sep 12, 2001, 7:52 AM
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Actually, to clarify a little more as things changed a while back: WHEN the Golden Knights comp teams had to pack for themselves, they mostly stack packed their stilettos, though some PRO packed them. Now, the USAPT hires packers for the comp teams and all the contract packers PRO pack those rigs. Not true, though, that they did it any certain way because of the SOP that applies to the demo teams; it was just personal preference. Also, all gear used by the USAPT is non-standard, as is the majority of gear used by our MFF instructors in Yuma, AZ. Those rigs, known by the acronym ICRAPS (instructor certified ram air parachute systems) are all Javelins with mostly Spectre and older Falcon mains. They are flat packed.

Chuck




Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Sep 12, 2001, 10:04 AM
Post #16 of 32 (7064 views)
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Re: PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since I'll be getting my rig soon enough, I am wondering then, is it hard to pack a ZP flatpack style?
Don't ask me.....I don't even know how to flat pack! Tongue I was taught long ago, but haven't used it in years..

In reply to:
I have just heard that since semi/full elip canopies are harder to pack since they have different cell lengths.
I have found that all the canopies I have packed were pretty easy to pro-pack.. Well, except for the time I tried to pro-pack that round......I never could figure out which lines were which.. Wink

Mike



mountainman  (A License)

Sep 12, 2001, 1:05 PM
Post #17 of 32 (7058 views)
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Haha......thanks Mike. I guess once I get into the groove of PRO packing, I'll too forget what flat packing is.

(Hope you are finding stuff to do in Denver!)

--------------
Boogie pics coming!!!


RufusW  (Student)

Aug 16, 2011, 9:00 AM
Post #18 of 32 (5920 views)
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Re: [mountainman] PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

"Flat pack - Easier to see all parts of the pack job. Easier to inspect topside of canopy. Easier to spot line problems.

Pro pack - Faster. Recommended by most canopy manufacturers. Generally gives you more control over your opening."

Could someone explain what 'more control over your opening means', and why a Pro Pack does that? I think BASE jumpers flat pack...

Any information appreciated :)


Abedy  (D 10153)

Aug 16, 2011, 9:19 AM
Post #19 of 32 (5900 views)
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Re: [mountainman] PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since I'll be getting my rig soon enough, I am wondering then, is it hard to pack a ZP flatpack style?
One of our freelance TI's here flatpacks his ZP canopy which is still very much like a plastic shopping bag when it comes to air permeability Tongue. He usually lays it out, then he rolls over it to "squeeze out" as much air as possible, then proceeds packing. Works pretty well.

BTW: After couple hundred jumps things aren't that difficult any more CoolTongueAngelic


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 16, 2011, 10:16 AM
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Re: [rendezvous] PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
thanks everyone. I'm trying to learn PRO packing. At the moment I make quite mess of it but I guess I'll
eventually get a hold on it.

Of course the "mess" usually happens when you try to get it in the bag. After 30 years of jumping non-Zero Porosity canopies, I really just hated packing when I finally got a modern canopy...then I tried the psycho pack (precision calls it the "precision pack"):

http://www.precision.aero/omega_pack.htm

You should get a simple extension to your bridle about a foot long if you're going to regularly do the psycho pack.

Many will say that the psycho pack technique is being lazy, and that there is no reason why you can't learn the tips/techniques needed to get it in the bag easily, but I don't care. I just don't see the downside of psychopacking, it is so wonderfully easy, and openings do not suffer. If anything I think it possible that openings are likely to be more consistent as I can better control the slider compared to the struggle of putting it in the bag otherwise.

A search on the term "psycho pack" will reveal a lot of discussion.

Flat packing is a very general term, that can be used to mean a "roll" pack technique (generally very much out of favor now, but it did work), or something that is actually very much like what is used by many to pack reserves, and is much like a pro pack except done a different way - that used to be called a "factory pack". Without packing tabs, and with ZP fabric, it is much more difficult compared to pro packing.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Aug 16, 2011, 10:34 AM
Post #21 of 32 (5837 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
thanks everyone. I'm trying to learn PRO packing. At the moment I make quite mess of it but I guess I'll eventually get a hold on it.

Of course the "mess" usually happens when you try to get it in the bag. After 30 years of jumping non-Zero Porosity canopies, I really just hated packing when I finally got a modern canopy...then I tried the psycho pack ... Many will say that the psycho pack technique is being lazy, and that there is no reason why you can't learn the tips/techniques needed to get it in the bag easily, but I don't care. I just don't see the downside of psychopacking, it is so wonderfully easy, and openings do not suffer.

+1.

Been psycho packing for about 20 some jumps now, and I don't get it: why don't everyone use it?

After flopping on the floor, you can recheck your lines, the noses, and the slider to make sure all is good. The folding to narrow the pack is done cleanly on top of the pack, so you know you didn't mess anything up when you did that. And getting into the bag is a piece o cake.

Still waiting to hear of the downsides to it.


piisfish

Aug 16, 2011, 10:39 AM
Post #22 of 32 (5835 views)
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Re: [RufusW] PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could someone explain what 'more control over your opening means', and why a Pro Pack does that? I think BASE jumpers flat pack...

Any information appreciated :)
PRO pack gives more control on the opening than a standart^d flat pack, because of it's awesome name.

Sounds professional, but it is an acronym for Proper Ram-air Orientation.

I believe most BASEjumpers do a something that ressembles a flat PROpack. They start flat, and then center their packjob to have everything symetrical (more or less like a reserve parachute) Some also directly do a shoulder PROpack.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Aug 16, 2011, 11:15 AM
Post #23 of 32 (5808 views)
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Re: [Divalent] PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Still waiting to hear of the downsides to it.


*People not clearing the bridle properly or using too short of a bridle and causing friction burns/damage on the canopy.

* People in a hurry to get on the next load forgetting to remove the intentional twist out of the lines and or adding an additional twist (2 twists) by rotating it the wrong way. (I've seen it happen in person)

* Bigger canopies (200 and up) are harder to handle neatly which are typically used by students/newbies who end up doing the 2 issues mentioned above and or end up with a football packjob.

* It requires a bit more technique to get good at it.

Those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 16, 2011, 11:22 AM
Post #24 of 32 (5801 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

" ...

Flat packing is a very general term, that can be used to mean a "roll" pack technique (generally very much out of favor now, but it did work), or something that is actually very much like what is used by many to pack reserves, and is much like a pro pack except done a different way - that used to be called a "factory pack". Without packing tabs, and with ZP fabric, it is much more difficult compared to pro packing.
........................................................................

I used to roll-pack my Strato-Cloud and first-generation Strong Tandem mains, but the only canopies I still "roll pack" are Strong Tandem reserves. You have to "roll pack" Strong Tandem reserves to hide the nose, delay cell inflation and soften the openings. If you have ever opened a tandem reserve at "tandem terminal you will understand why!


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 16, 2011, 11:29 AM
Post #25 of 32 (5791 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] PRO Pack Vs Flat Pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
*People not clearing the bridle properly or using too short of a bridle and causing friction burns/damage on the canopy.

when an extension is used, then that should be no more of an issue as burns resulting from putting it in the bag in a conventional way.

In reply to:
* People in a hurry to get on the next load forgetting to remove the intentional twist out of the lines and or adding an additional twist (2 twists) by rotating it the wrong way. (I've seen it happen in person)

I don't see how a person would put in 2 twists. Even if someone rotates the bag the wrong way, it would result in 1 twist. I quickly go used to it, and rotating it the wrong direction is not something I think I could ever doAngelic. Even though I think I will not ever do it, 1 twist should be no big deal.

In reply to:
* Bigger canopies (200 and up) are harder to handle neatly which are typically used by students/newbies who end up doing the 2 issues mentioned above and or end up with a football packjob.

I don't understand this comment, as the larger canopies being harder to handle is a big part of why the psycho pack is a benefit. A football or whatever mess type of material distribution you want to call it is I think more likely when it is harder to get in the bag.

In reply to:
* It requires a bit more technique to get good at it.

I really don't understand this comment. I realize that many people make it look so easy to get a canopy in the bag in a conventional manner, but speaking as a veteran jumper, but new to ZP, I tried and tried to copy what I saw in person and in packing videos showing all the tricks, but it definitely was not easy to pick up the technique. The differences needed to use the psycho method were extremely simple for this old dog to learn.


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