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(R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO.

 


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:02 PM
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(R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. Can't Post

So on my 3 rd and final jump of the day.. I pulled at 4000' had a VERY hard opening..( i was stable and in good position) people say it was because the nose wasnt tucked,,Anyways......My right steering toggle snapped upon deployment of the canopy...I reached for the left toggle..My chute was diving to the RIGHT.....I was at about 3300' and decided to cut away... When i landed we had tons to talk about..My question is,, DID i do the right thing? Some said i should of used the rear risers..I didnt really think to much about it,,I saw the problem and decided to cut away.. I have never landed with my rear risers and felt more comfortable cutting away...I have only 28 jumps..Just curious what everyone thinks....Damn crazy when you have to decided to cut away..lol..


(This post was edited by vortexr1 on Dec 5, 2009, 9:11 PM)


bfilarsky  (C 37619)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:20 PM
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

You had a canopy that YOU decided YOU couldn't safely land. You cut it away. I'd say you made the correct choice.

It is absolutely possible to land a canopy on rear risers, but that doesn't necessarily mean its the best decision for YOU.

Good job!


likearock  (D 24640)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:25 PM
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

You walked away - you did good.

What kind of canopy was it?


icevideot  (D 23833)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:26 PM
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Re: [vortexr1] STERRING LINE BRAKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

The sad truth is someone will always second guess your decisions and there doesn't seem to be a way around that.

First point, you made a decision and walked away so that leans toward it being a good decision. (At least in this case) I would say the same if you landed on rears and walked away.

One question that comes to mind is how rattled were you by the hard opening? You may have been aware that you were at 3300' but if you weren't able to accurately assess the condition of your main by 2500' you definitely made the right choice.

At your experience level, you should have some time practicing a flare with toggles unstowed on rear risers. If that is true you could make an informed decision on whether to land on rears or not. A stall on risers is much more abrupt than on toggles so I would not want my first attempt to be at the ground.

Were you one of my former students I would feel good about your decision and would ask you these questions only to prompt you to think ahead toward any future crisis that may occur.

In this sport time is often a luxury so considering situations and responses ahead of time is our best defense. You can never know ahead of time exactly what situation you will be faced with.

It is also more valuable to seek the opinions of the instructors and knowledgable jumpers you trust the most. They may give you alternatives to consider but ask them specifically what they think you did wrong and why they may think that.

At the end of the day remember, it is your butt on the line. Make your best decision and proceed with confidence. The life you save may be your own.

Sounds like a fine reaction to me.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:36 PM
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Re: [icevideot] STERRING LINE BRAKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Appreciate that . Im gonna practice some rear riser braking tomorrow and turns and really get a better feel for them...Thanks again.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:37 PM
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Re: [likearock] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Manta 210


Amazon  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 10:17 PM
Post #7 of 52 (4007 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So on my 3 rd and final jump of the day.. I pulled at 4000' had a VERY hard opening..( i was stable and in good position) people say it was because the nose wasnt tucked,,Anyways......My right steering toggle snapped upon deployment of the canopy...I reached for the left toggle..My chute was diving to the RIGHT.....I was at about 3300' and decided to cut away... When i landed we had tons to talk about..My question is,, DID i do the right thing? Some said i should of used the rear risers..I didnt really think to much about it,,I saw the problem and decided to cut away.. I have never landed with my rear risers and felt more comfortable cutting away...I have only 28 jumps..Just curious what everyone thinks....Damn crazy when you have to decided to cut away..lol..

You did great. You had a canopy that YOU decided was beyond your ability to land safely and you cut it away for a canopy that would get you down to the ground safely.. again.. well done.

I had a ParaFoil years ago that used to blow steering lines about every 10th jump so I got pretty good at landing it on rear risers. I did the same with a Triathlon a few years ago that had the toggle come loose from the steering line... no wind sunset load and a long spot out over a swamp.. I kept the canopy( I was SOOOOO not looking forward to trying to find it out in that swamp) after releasing the other toggle.. and doing basic control tests on the risers... so I kept it and flew it back to a brisk but good landing right where I needed to land. You may want to get with a good canopy instructor and have a chat on what you need to do to land on rears.. and work on it, so you know how in case you find yourself in that position again.


dninness  (D 19617)

Dec 5, 2009, 10:26 PM
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not to pile on, but if you thought it wasn't good enough to control and land, then you made a good decision.

Had a student in our program about 2 summers ago who thought she had a busted line on opening. (I think it was a blown toggle) She chopped it and landed the reserve. Good job.

Later, shitload of folks gave her a hard time about chopping it, but I told her "They were a half mile away from that canopy and not under it. You were 15 feet away and relying on it to get you to the ground. You made the decision you thought you needed to make with the information you had. And you were successful."

People need to chill the hell out sometimes. Geez.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Dec 5, 2009, 11:09 PM
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you walking? If so, you did a fine job.

I have seen a student ride a bad, spiralling main all the way to impact. Thank heavens she landed in recently plowed, muddy (soft) field. She was badly hurt, but lived. You on the other hand, assessed the situation, made and executed a decision, and walked away... good job.

Now go do rear riser drills up high ....

--Turns with brakes stowed
--Turns with brakes UNstowed
--Flares
--Stalls (chat with an instructor about this before attempting it.)


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 11:30 PM
Post #10 of 52 (3962 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitely will practice those rear riser drills.Thanks
Alot for the advice.


wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Dec 6, 2009, 12:01 AM
Post #11 of 52 (3949 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure I'll get bashed by the all coddlers and sunshine blowers here, but I want you to live forever and maybe jump with you some day. Let me start by saying I'm glad you're alright, and that doing something is always better than doing nothing. That being said, if you were a low time jumper at my DZ and this happened, my 1st question would be "why did you immediately go to your emergency procedure on a low speed problem so far above decision altitude?" I know that you might think that the canopy was "diving hard", but if a broken steering line was your only problem, then you didn't really need to be in such a rush. If you have a toggle fire(toggle comes unstowed) it will do exactlty the same thing, and I know you don't want to cut away from an unstowed toggle. Your 1st instinct if your canopy opens in a turn should be to reach up and unstow both toggles, this will usually stop the turn and only takes a second. Once the canopy is flying straight, then re-evaluate. If you don't feel comfortable landing on your rear risers by your decision altitude, then by all means, cut away. Never 2nd guess your reserve, but don't to use it if you don't have to.

Happy jumping!


format  (B 15348)

Dec 6, 2009, 12:56 AM
Post #12 of 52 (3921 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My right steering toggle snapped...
My chute was diving to the RIGHT...

I'm curious, how come it was diving to the right?
Is that what normally happens - right toggle off and you turn right?
If so - why


377  (F 666)

Dec 6, 2009, 2:36 AM
Post #13 of 52 (3882 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with the majority who say you did the right thing. You had a main controllability problem, you cut away above your hard deck, you landed safely. End of discussion. Once you have done a successful cutaway it gives you a big boost in confidence. You know you can handle the stress.

377


wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Dec 6, 2009, 3:21 AM
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Manta 210


Quote:
You might have been jumping a 210, but I believe a Manta is 288 sq ft.


JohanW  (D 86318)

Dec 6, 2009, 4:10 AM
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Re: [wrightskyguy, format, vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Mantas come in 290 and 230; ZP Mantas come in 185, 200, 230, 260, 290 and 320. See the website. Either way, OP seems confused what exact canopy he was jumping.

I would expect a canopy with a broken right steering line and a left steering line still in half brakes to turn left, unless there is (invisible?) damage to the canopy, possibly as a result of the hard opening.

OP, I think you did good. There will always be someone second-guessing you, but especially the turn direction weirdness means either you or the canopy (or both) was not functioning as expected, which means you're a lot better off under a reserve with good steering lines.

Knowing how to land on rears may save you from cutting away a perfectly good canopy with less than stellar steering lines sometime in the future, but that's a decision only the canopy pilot who's there, then, can make. If you get to be that there then canopy pilot, it helps if you have practised rear riser manoeuvres before, under controlled circumstances.

(Some of this belongs in Safety and Training, some of this possibly in Gear and Rigging, some of this belongs right here in Incidents ..)


(This post was edited by JohanW on Dec 6, 2009, 4:11 AM)


Lucky...  (F 1)

Dec 6, 2009, 5:03 AM
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Re: [wrightskyguy] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sure I'll get bashed by the all coddlers and sunshine blowers here, but I want you to live forever and maybe jump with you some day. Let me start by saying I'm glad you're alright, and that doing something is always better than doing nothing. That being said, if you were a low time jumper at my DZ and this happened, my 1st question would be "why did you immediately go to your emergency procedure on a low speed problem so far above decision altitude?" I know that you might think that the canopy was "diving hard", but if a broken steering line was your only problem, then you didn't really need to be in such a rush. If you have a toggle fire(toggle comes unstowed) it will do exactlty the same thing, and I know you don't want to cut away from an unstowed toggle. Your 1st instinct if your canopy opens in a turn should be to reach up and unstow both toggles, this will usually stop the turn and only takes a second. Once the canopy is flying straight, then re-evaluate. If you don't feel comfortable landing on your rear risers by your decision altitude, then by all means, cut away. Never 2nd guess your reserve, but don't to use it if you don't have to.

Happy jumping!

This is where I am. A reserve is only for mains that aren't flyable and landable. Good job, at 28 jumps I would have done the same thing. Hell, I did, I had a long snivelling main way early in the student program and chopped it; bad decision. But IMO that wasn't your best decision but it is great that you did make a decision, some just fight it or scream all the way down when a simple chop would have fixed it all. So I give you an 8.

I had a friend apparently not stow his toggles, or something like that when packing, and they both broke upon opening. We were real young jumpers, we opened at the same alti together and I flew to him, we opened around 6 to have more time to fly around, he was shitting his pants waving me away so I left. Anyway, I get down before him and watch him execute a rear riser flare. Kinda clumbsy, but it worked. He was seconds from making your decision and chopping too.

Did you have an RSL?

I always say, don't trade a good main for what could be a bad reserve; you can't reverse the trade.


Jumpah  (D License)

Dec 6, 2009, 6:58 AM
Post #17 of 52 (3706 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

You did fine...the main question is can you survive the landing? You evaluated, you decided, good for you. As you get more time in the sport you'll have more experience which will help develop other options you could choose that you would be comfortable with.

I had a steering line disconnect in my hand when I had about 50 jumps. Big student canopy, 210 or so. I had no significant turns with the good break unstowed, so I practiced rear riser flares until I entered the landing pattern. Aimed for soft grass, PLF'd the landing like I was taught. No big deal other than some grass stains.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Dec 6, 2009, 8:05 AM
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a question. What were you taught to do in that situation on your first jump course? Now would seem like a good time to go over emergency procedures with your instructor. No one remembers everything from the fjc and now that your technical knowledge is more advanced more of those details will stick.
Don't forget to buy your friends beer.Wink


christelsabine  (D 10828)

Dec 6, 2009, 8:24 AM
Post #19 of 52 (3609 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So on my 3 rd and final jump of the day.. I pulled at 4000' had a VERY hard opening..( i was stable and in good position) people say it was because the nose wasnt tucked,,Anyways......My right steering toggle snapped upon deployment of the canopy...I reached for the left toggle..My chute was diving to the RIGHT.....I was at about 3300' and decided to cut away... When i landed we had tons to talk about..My question is,, DID i do the right thing? Some said i should of used the rear risers..I didnt really think to much about it,,I saw the problem and decided to cut away.. I have never landed with my rear risers and felt more comfortable cutting away...I have only 28 jumps..Just curious what everyone thinks....Damn crazy when you have to decided to cut away..lol..

Well done. Your decision, your life. You safed your a**, that's all what's counting. Congrats. Go on like that and never lose altitude awareness.

Smile


jtval  (D 26340)

Dec 6, 2009, 9:35 AM
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Re: [format] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My right steering toggle snapped...
My chute was diving to the RIGHT...

I'm curious, how come it was diving to the right?
Is that what normally happens - right toggle off and you turn right?
If so - why


I'm curious about this,too. Could have been other damage, it could have been a brain fart while typing the incident.

vortexr1,
The main thing is that you are safe. Good job.
But the important thing is that I hope your learned something. Hindsight is always 20/20 but if I was your AFF/DZO/S&TA/friend I would be concerned with the knowledge you are equipped with.
Let me start by saying you definitely did the right thing FOR YOU in a moment of uncertainty.


But a few things can be learned from this situation.
Ask yourself these questions WHILE YOU ARE ON THE GROUND
Was there something else I could have done?

In this situation you could have released the still stowed toggle and re-assessed the situation.
However, I will continue to say this- YOU DID THE RIGHT THING FOR YOU at the time.
Under a malfunctioning canopy is NEVER the time to second guess yourself and your training.

What if this type of thing happens again?

Ever hear someone say I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the sky than be in the sky wishing I was on the ground? These incident forums are good for learning about a situation somebody else experienced and then asking yourself, "what would I have done?"
I suggest to my students that they read these forums and sift through the FACTS. I encourage them to discuss this with our staff. That being said, I don't want them to read this forum until they have a full understanding of the procedures and possible malfunctions since many times people "think on their feet" in order to save their lives. You need a solid basis for knowledge and muscle memory in order to be prepared for a quick reaction time to a less than desirable situation.


Are you prepared with enough training to handle some malfunction on your very next jump?
The good thing is that you now know you have the confidence to break away from a malfunction. And while it was said above "you should never second guess your reserve," what if you cutaway and you had a broken toggle on the reserve?
Now, you are in the same situation but at a lower altitude.
I will echo it again. YOU DID THE RIGHT THING FOR YOU at the time. I am not trying to attack you, though it may seem that way over the internet.
I am just trying to spark some questions/discussion that may have already come up for you in real life.


When was the last time you spoke about the scary side of skydiving?

Hopefully, You have already spoken to and discussed this with your AFFI/DZO/S&TA/everyone else.
There is so much more to discuss but the internet is not the place for it. I am sure you have folks there who will sit down and talk with you as often and as much as you need.

Good job on making a decision that allowed you to walk away safely from your malfunctioning canopy!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 6, 2009, 9:35 AM
Post #21 of 52 (3534 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

>When i landed we had tons to talk about..

Some other things to think about -

If your canopy was open (i.e. your freefall had stopped) you have some time to sort things out. If you have any questions as to whether it's landable or not, you can do a control check, which I'm sure you have been taught. It's generally straight - turn - flare (after releasing brakes) and if you can do that it's _generally_ safe to land.

If it was spinning violently, (and that's _spinning_ not turning) then it's pretty clear that you have a major problem, and you may not want to take the time to do the above.

If it's just turning, and you can control it 100% with toggles, and there are no other problems, you probably want to keep it. If you have to do something odd to control it (pull down on a riser to keep it flying straight) then you should think about whether or not you can land it like that. Can you turn right and left? Can you get it to flare at all? Does canopy size + wind mean you can land without a flare? That's always a judgment call.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 6, 2009, 10:28 AM
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Re: [jtval] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks alot for all that.. Im actually sittin at the DZ waitin for the weather to warm up a bit..Ive discussed the whole jump amd alternatives with my instrictors and other jumpers...I really appreciate all the responses and knowledge ive gained here...Just trying to gain more experience and lnowledge..Thanks


CMiller  (B 30864)

Dec 6, 2009, 11:40 AM
Post #23 of 52 (3411 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had this very same thing happen to me. Find out if you can control the canopy. If you release the other brake and your canopy flies straight, then just use the rear risers to control your canopy. This is what happened in my case; the left brake line broke, but the canopy could still fly and be controlled with riser input.

If your brake line snaps and the canopy starts spinning out of control, it's obvious what to do.

It's really no different than any other type of malfunction. Just ask yourself "Can I probably land this safely?" if the answer is no, you should use your reserve.


shropshire  (C License)

Dec 6, 2009, 1:21 PM
Post #24 of 52 (3327 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion.... another plus point is that you now have the knowledge of what it is to cut away and use your reseve... Which I'm sure has increased your confidence/knowledge.

Welcome to the club.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 6, 2009, 2:51 PM
Post #25 of 52 (3262 views)
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Re: [shropshire] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

just got done doin my hop n pop from 3500' .i have to say it was alittle
nerve rackin after doin a cut away yesterday..lol..everything went great..practiced my rear riser turns and flaring..Thanks again for all the advice..


awagnon  (B 35872)

Dec 6, 2009, 6:30 PM
Post #26 of 52 (1495 views)
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Re: [jtval] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm curious about this,too. Could have been other damage,....

I also wondered about a right spin with a right brake line breaking on opening. Was the chute carefully inpected for other damage or just the brake line repaired?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 6, 2009, 8:02 PM
Post #27 of 52 (1460 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
The only real mistake I can see so far is when you named this thread, and added "WHAT WOULD YOU DO".

What I would do, or any other jumper would do is of no consequence. You only need to worry about what you would do, and seeing as you are uninjured, you did the right thing.

I never would have cut that away, but that's because I can make a safe landing with a broken steerting line, or several broken lines.

However, what I can do has nothing to do with the correct solution to your problem. Some other jumpers have suggested ways you might have arrested the spin, or that there was no need to cutaway 'so far' above your decision altitude. Well, all of that is bullshit.

You know very well that a broken steering line is a major problem for you. Even if you do stop the spin, what then? You still need to cutaway, and you've just wasted time stopping a spin.

Of course, being so far above your desicion altitude, you've got the time to waste, right? Nope. Not at all. Your desicion altitude is the absolute lowest you want to initiate your emergency procedures, not the altitude you want to wait for to initiate your emergency procedures.

Here's a good rule for you to use for both your main and reserve - open a parachute as soon as it is safe to do so. If you track away from an RW jump, and you are in clear air by 3000ft, pull at that time. Do not wait for 2500ft or 2000ft 'just because'.

The same goes for your reserve. As soon as you realize that you will need to cutaway and/or open your reserve, do it as soon as possible.

The reason being that if you encounter any delay in opening or cutting away a parachute, the extra altitude will give you more time to sort things out. Important things like saving your life, and if you need every foot you have to make that happen, you'll be glad you didn't waste them trying to stop the spin of a canopy you're going to cutaway anyway.

You did the right thing for you this time. Continue to learn things about your gear, how it works, and the different things you can do with it. This way if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future, your increased knowledge and capability will make more options available to you.

Let's face it, if you can avoid the expense, hassle and risk (yes, there's added risk) of a cutaway, then you should. If you cannot avoid the cutaway, then get on with it and screw what anyone else thinks.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 6, 2009, 8:36 PM
Post #28 of 52 (1446 views)
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Re: [davelepka] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for that advice.Sounds like solid advice..Heres a couple of pics a guy got of my cut away..Sorry not actually the cut away..Just my rig and me landing the reserve,,,
Attachments: IMG_0015.JPG (28.3 KB)
  IMG_0018.JPG (34.8 KB)
  IMG_0019.JPG (52.2 KB)


Bolas  (D License)

Dec 7, 2009, 6:57 AM
Post #29 of 52 (1364 views)
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Re: [jtval] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
what if you cutaway and you had a broken toggle on the reserve?

Then you figure out how to land it as safe as possible.

If a problem with a main that you deem unlandable safely, chop it.

If a problem with a reserve, fix it.

"In air rigging" should only be done on reserves.


Cutaway68  (D 29478)

Dec 7, 2009, 7:28 AM
Post #30 of 52 (1353 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

The question that I have is "what caused the broken steering lines?".

I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but when I looked at your profile you have indicated that you prefer to freefly. Having only 29-30 jumps and already 19 of them are freefly jumps then that makes me wonder what your deployment speed was or your body position. I know that there is an age old argument about how early someone should begin freeflying and that may never be answered, but it may have played a factor in this incident.

While I agree that freeflying is great, I also believe that everyone should have a firm knowledge on flat flying.

You need to make sure that after you have flattened out you still leave enough time to slow down to a good deployment speed.

I don't know that this was the cause but it is a possibility and you need to make sure to keep this in mind.

You did the right thing for you.


timmyfitz  (D License)

Dec 7, 2009, 8:15 AM
Post #31 of 52 (1328 views)
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Re: [] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only real mistake I can see so far is when you named this thread, and added "WHAT WOULD YOU DO".

What I would do, or any other jumper would do is of no consequence.

To the OP. I don't see a problem with your thread title or that you ask what other people would do. You obviously did what you were trained to do and it worked out well for you.

Asking what other people would do in this situation (or any situation) is a great way to learn and advance your skills. Nothing wrong with it at all.

Stick with doing things the way you taught during your student training for now until you gain more experience and knowledge. Some of that will come from asking "what would you do?"

Never stop asking questions, especially how someone else would do something. This is one of the cheapest ways you will learn. Never stop learning, ask "what would you do" often.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 7, 2009, 10:37 AM
Post #32 of 52 (1280 views)
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Re: [timmyfitz] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for that. Also i mainly belly fly. I was falling straight and stable when i deployed my pilot chute.the rigger said the nose might of not got. tucked.


likearock  (D 24640)

Dec 7, 2009, 1:13 PM
Post #33 of 52 (1238 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you ever figure out why you felt your canopy dive to the right after snapping the right-side brake line?


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 7, 2009, 1:27 PM
Post #34 of 52 (1226 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Since we can't have a one on one conversation, I'll suggest a few things.


Practice flaring with 1 toggle and one riser. .

A control check, including flaring will help you decide if landing that configuration is a reasonable option. Performing a PLF is a good landing by the way. Practice PLFs. Most people do not do this and at some point really wish they had the skill to perform a proper PLF.

Using 1 toggle and one riser is easy to control and stop a lighter loaded canopy. Just using risers is quite challenging. Most, and I do mean most, people do not know how to land a canopy of any wingloading with risers alone. Flaring to hard, stalling and falling backwards from 8 - 10 feet hurts. Believe that most people that will tell you to use just the risers often have no clue how to do so.

Take this new oppurtunity to practice flying and flaring with just risers. Practice using 1 toggle and 1 riser to fly and flare. If a brake line breaks again, you'll find that a lower wingloaded canopy is so much easier to deal with if you use the remaining toggle.

To those who say it's not symmetrical, go try it up at altitude and sort it out. Lighter wingloads are easy easy (that's 2 easys) to deal with.

If I was to land my 240 7 cell with a broken brake line, I would use 1 toggle and 1 riser. I have done this already and it's great. I have landed on just risers for the heck of it. It works but is much more challenging.

If I was in my old Xaos, I'd possibly opt to cutaway. On my Stiletto, I'd be more apt to land it. Again on my 240, i would land it for sure.

Hope this helps.
Good luck.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 7, 2009, 2:54 PM
Post #35 of 52 (1195 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Good job, Shawn.

One other thing about using rear risers....

You will want to discover your rear-riser stall point before you attempt to land on rears.

It's much safer landing rears knowing where the stall point is as opposed to NOT knowing.

Talk to your local instructors BEFORE you take any of this advice in here. Much of it is good, very good, but none of it includes ALL you need to know. This thread has given you some good stuff on just what questions to ask.

Have fun, dude, and fly safe!


Cheach  (C 38327)

Dec 7, 2009, 4:18 PM
Post #36 of 52 (1177 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

My cutaway-on like my 12th jump- was due to the same thing. I went to release my brakes and the left brake decided it didn't want to be up there. I started to spin a bit and I remembered I was suppose to use my rear risers. I tried with all my might-but its wasn't happening and I started to spin more- so at 2500 I chopped. When I got down and told them what happened and I remembering telling the upper number jumpers, "Yah...I am sure YOU could have landed it on the rear risers-I tried and knew for sure I wouldn't be able to." I am sure some of them still thought I shouldn't have cutaway, but it is my life. When the canopy was hung up, we discovered it wasn't JUST the steering line, but also a few others.


icevideot  (D 23833)

Dec 7, 2009, 5:07 PM
Post #37 of 52 (1169 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone mentioned trying to land with one toggle and one riser. I have no reason to think they haven't done this with good results.

I will say that it would require quite a bit of coordination to do and I wouldn't recommend it for most people. Staying even with one hand (the riser side) having a control stroke of a foot or likely less and the other hand (toggle side) having in the neighborhood of 3 feet leaves a lot of room for error in my opinion.

That actually caused the first skydiving injury I ever witnessed as a jumper loaded about 1:1 hooked herself into the ground mid-flare. (also the first time I saw a compound tib-fib)

I would definitely agree that there is value in trying this up high and make your own decision reguarding which you feel the most confident with.

I teach students to land with two toggles or two risers but never one of each. I think anyone who couldn't manage to land with risers alone would not be likely to better with vastly different response from one side to the other.

Again, I would like to say this is my opinion based on observations and personal experience and not meant to say there aren't other ways to view this.

Cheers,
Robin


DanG  (D 22351)

Dec 8, 2009, 6:10 AM
Post #38 of 52 (1114 views)
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Re: [icevideot] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that landing with two toggles, or two risers is preferable, but there's no reason not to practice using one of each. If anything, you'll learn more about how your canopy flies.

I was forced to land with one toggle and one riser once under a Spectre 150. I had a long spot, and foolishly waited until I was well under cutaway altitude to pop my brakes. My right brake was knotted up and wouldn't come undone. Being too low to cutaway, I had no choice but to land on one brake and one toggle. It worked out fine, but it wasn't ideal. That experience taught me two things: 1) even if your canopy looks good, do a full control check above your decision altitude, and 2) practice flying your canopy in lots of different ways because you never know what you might be faced with.


jtval  (D 26340)

Dec 8, 2009, 7:54 AM
Post #39 of 52 (1105 views)
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Re: [Bolas] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
what if you cutaway and you had a broken toggle on the reserve?

Then you figure out how to land it as safe as possible.

If a problem with a main that you deem unlandable safely, chop it.

If a problem with a reserve, fix it.

"In air rigging" should only be done on reserves.

Of Course I knew that. I was asking the question to get the student to find the answers.

I didn't know, until he posted pictures that he was from mesquite. My home dz.


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 8, 2009, 10:32 AM
Post #40 of 52 (1086 views)
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Re: [icevideot] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone mentioned trying to land with one toggle and one riser. I have no reason to think they haven't done this with good results.

Yeah that was me. You're right, it does take some coordination and yes I realize many skydivers lack it. They also are the same ones that take 100 jumps to finally land on target standing up and get excited about it. I don't encourage blind canopy control, I do encourage exploring the range of any parachute that is above your head. That includes a reserve canopy.

Practice it and use if you want to. It's especially fine on larger canopies.Do not be the person to just pull on controls for the first time near the ground and see what happens.

Here's a for instance. After a cutaway, a skydiver then flies a perfectly good reserve back to the landing zone. When it's time to flare, he crams on the brakes. What happens? The canopy stalls and the pilot crashes onto their back. The other, and much better option would have been a canopy control check on the way back to the landing zone to figure out the control range. After determining how the parachute will fly, flare it accordingly and land safe.

What do I teach students on their big ass navigators? Risers, or toggles, not both. Also I highly encourage canopy control checks. When they have more jumps, I offer up other suggestions to work on. 1 toggle and 1 riser etc... plus stalling, and other fun canopy maneuvers.

There is no reason to stuff yourself into the ground with a control line malfunction. If the toggle is stuck, you better know if you can land it safely, or if you should cutaway instead. If you perform a reasonable canopy control check with a busted brake line and determine you can in fact flare with 1 toggle and a riser. ... set up for PLF and do what you practiced.

If you choose to land rear risers instead... set up for PLF and do what you practiced.

Hope that clears it up slightly.


yoink

Dec 8, 2009, 11:57 AM
Post #41 of 52 (1083 views)
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Re: [DanG] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That experience taught me two things: 1) even if your canopy looks good, do a full control check above your decision altitude, and 2) practice flying your canopy in lots of different ways because you never know what you might be faced with.

3) Carry a hook knife? Wink

I'd much rather be trying this uneven flaring from full flight, rather than in half brakes.


Harmless  (D 30719)

Dec 8, 2009, 12:03 PM
Post #42 of 52 (1075 views)
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Re: [icevideot] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I once, inadvertently, landed on one toggle and one riser...Tongue

After doing a 90 onto final with the front riser, I waited while the canopy recovered. As the speed from the turn bled off, I started applying toggles and immediately began to carve left Unimpressed. I corrected on the right but it still didn't feel rightUnsure... stood it up but the flair was extremely uneven. Crazy

The knot that holds the toggle on the brake line had become lodged in the guide ring, so when I pulled on the right toggle, I was directly pulling on the riser. Laugh


DanG  (D 22351)

Dec 8, 2009, 1:04 PM
Post #43 of 52 (1057 views)
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Re: [yoink] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
3) Carry a hook knife?

Not sure if this is a serious question or not. I'll assume it is. Yes, I carry a hook knife.

At 1000ft AGL, cutting lines was not preferable to flaring practice. I gave it a few good practice flares to get down the timing and amount of flare required from the different inputs. Trying to cut the stuck steering line and missing may well have killed me. At the time I had about 500 landings on ram air parachutes, and cut exactly zero lines with a hook knife. I put a lot more faith in my being able to land the parachute as it was than trying to in-air rig while in the landing pattern.


lintern  (C 104479)

Dec 9, 2009, 5:53 AM
Post #44 of 52 (1007 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Have a look at this video and it will make you think about landing on rear risers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0YlMrwP7RI

Like the OP, he had a brake toggle fall off so he tried to land on rear risers, but he stalled his canopy and broke his leg.

You can see this from about 1m 50sec into the video. It aint very clear fottage but you get the idea.

If you're going to attempt a rear riser landing, make sure you have tried it up high before hand and are confident about doing it.


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Dec 10, 2009, 5:35 AM
Post #45 of 52 (947 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you did the right thing. At about 100 jumps I had a broken steering line on my Spectre 210. I was just above decision height and released the other brake and practiced rear riser flares. I decided to land it on rear risers with a slide in/PLF landing and it worked out OK. I probably could have stood it up.

At about 600 jumps on my Sabre2 with Skyhook, I had a knotted toggle that I could not clear. I determined that I could fly it on rear risers but was unsure of how it was going to land on rears -- it seemed to easy to stall, so I cut away trusting that my Skyhook and reserve would get me home. I had already had 2 cutawys, so I felt pretty confident about my gear. Again, it worked out fine. I walked away from both but in both cases, I made what I felt was an informed decision based on how the canopy was flying and my evaluation of my skills on that particular canopy in that particular configuration under those particular conditions.

Good work. every landing you walk away from is a good one whether it be on the Reserve or main canopy.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 10, 2009, 11:11 AM
Post #46 of 52 (921 views)
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Re: [lintern] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you're going to attempt a rear riser landing, make sure you have tried it up high before hand and are confident about doing it.

...and unless you're a very experienced canopy pilot, always keep your feet and knees firmly together and PLF. (Even without a PLF, a lot of broken/sprained ankles would be prevented or minimized if, all other things being equal, the jumper had his feet and knees tightly together - a basic technique woefully under-taught, under-emphasized and under-utilized since students stopped jumping round canopies.)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Dec 10, 2009, 12:05 PM
Post #47 of 52 (910 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So on my 3 rd and final jump of the day.. I pulled at 4000' had a VERY hard opening..( i was stable and in good position) people say it was because the nose wasnt tucked,,Anyways......My right steering toggle snapped upon deployment of the canopy...I reached for the left toggle..My chute was diving to the RIGHT.....I was at about 3300' and decided to cut away... When i landed we had tons to talk about..My question is,, DID i do the right thing? Some said i should of used the rear risers..I didnt really think to much about it,,I saw the problem and decided to cut away.. I have never landed with my rear risers and felt more comfortable cutting away...I have only 28 jumps..Just curious what everyone thinks....Damn crazy when you have to decided to cut away..lol..

Nothing that other's haven't already said, but a vote for:

Is it controllable and landable (and not likely to get worse)?

Yes -> land it.
No -> cut it before your hard deck.

Now, if you have never flow with rears, you have not fully learned your canopy and need to do so ASAP. INCLUDING FLARE. (practice up high, this will be much different than toggle flare, the stall on rears can be very abrupt.)

Done it twice... jumps 20 & 21 on a Goliath (as the name implies, its BIG). No problems, but a PLF was helpful on the second. (Rigger didn't change the second line when the first broke...Crazy so it broke the next week and he got to change it then...)

Now, given a smaller, twitchy canopy... maybe not. (see above test)

Good that you are asking questions. Smile
Better that when faced with it, you evaluated and took action to save your butt!! Cool

Jim


Dodatt  (Student)

Jan 4, 2010, 3:19 AM
Post #48 of 52 (820 views)
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Re: [377] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue pull silver lol awesome Cool


skycc  (D 14847)

Jan 4, 2010, 6:27 AM
Post #49 of 52 (800 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe you absolutely made the right decision.

FYI, I had about close to 1000 jumps when I decided to land a small elliptical canopy called a Batwing on risers (broken steering line), this was about 10-11 years ago. Poor decision for me apparently, that I still regret many years later as I deal with daily back pain that can't be fixed. Wish I could go back and chop it.

cc


patworks  (D 1813)

Jan 10, 2010, 1:30 PM
Post #50 of 52 (716 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

When that happens to me; it has twice, I chop.

I've had several friends break bones with RR Landings. With 1,500+ Round canopy-landdings, my ankles won't tolerate any more abuse. I do like walking.

Also, i jump a very lightly loaded canopy; you can do chin-ups on the risers. Moreover I am very comfortable with cut aways and reserve rides having experienced 3 dozen or so.


douwanto  (D 23851)

Jan 11, 2010, 2:03 AM
Post #51 of 52 (435 views)
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Re: [Jumpah] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

his result was as we all hope for ( successful ) but I beg to differ with your opinion that there was any evaluation beyond my steering line is broken..(there may have been but it was not clearly stated in his OP)..... and at 3300 feet a full assessment could be done if panic does not take control resulting in a knee jerk reaction. They have killed many that could have been saved. Look at the guy who cut away from a good canopy after a midair collision to his body. Not analyzing the situation is as bad as doing the wrong thing in my opinion and you can make up what ever you want if you get lucky and live but not if you are wrong and die........


vortexr1  (D License)

Jan 27, 2010, 6:01 PM
Post #52 of 52 (348 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Good job, Shawn.

One other thing about using rear risers....

You will want to discover your rear-riser stall point before you attempt to land on rears.

It's much safer landing rears knowing where the stall point is as opposed to NOT knowing.

Talk to your local instructors BEFORE you take any of this advice in here. Much of it is good, very good, but none of it includes ALL you need to know. This thread has given you some good stuff on just what questions to ask.

Have fun, dude, and fly safe!

Thanks. I have about 62 jumps now and have practiced rear riser braking,turns and things like that. Definitely good to be totally familiar with your canopy and how and what counters each action..I guess the main thing that i learned is like alot of you said, a good main with a minor problem is better than chopping.. I guess im more aware and when i had my second cut away due to tension knots (funny , only 2 jumps later,,) i tried working the problem out before chopping..It definitely is TOTALLY different cutting away the second time. Things go alittle slower and your more apt to try a few things to fix the problem before chopping....Like i said, i only have 62 jumps.But i feel ive been through tons of minor and major problems.So all good learning experiences....



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