Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
the Saber2 sucks!

 

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dorbie

Nov 11, 2009, 1:58 AM
Post #101 of 126 (2092 views)
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Re: [dorbie] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ahh, I jumped the gun; you've seen it (or the USPA proposal lifted from it), so your call for rules is merely to compel you to stay within recommendations you're not adhering to now.

You have the table and are free to comply with its recommendations whenever you see fit.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 11, 2009, 2:52 AM
Post #102 of 126 (2081 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

You're at Mile Hi? Go talk to Dan Raymond. He happens to know a thing or two about canopies and flying them in general. He would be able to help you. I'd ditch the attitude, though. He's already proven he knows what he is doing under canopy.


Blink  (C 3275)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:10 AM
Post #103 of 126 (2048 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

You wanted to know what you said that has turned the thread into this "intervention."

Quote:
I don't think one would need to do more than 20 jumps on a canopy to decide wether or not they like it, and I happen to not like the Sabre2.

Also, if it takes you even more than 10 rides on two different canopies to tell the differences and make a preference then you are not flying the canopy or are numb to the process.

You canít learn how a canopy flies in 20 jumps, and before you EVER downsize, itís a good idea to learn how to fly your canopy (granted, from a 280 to a 210 or so, not sure a big deal, this is where the learning takes place). Sure, you can learn ďYup, it does open, and look at that, it descends, and even has flare!Ē, but unless youíre doing full altitude hop and pops and working with coaches, thatís the limitation.

Quote:
So far 8-way is the largest group I have been in. I think it could still easily or mistakenly put you in a 15 degree track-off angle with another jumper. I would prefer to not make a 90* turn to the person next to me. I feel more comfortable on something other than a Sabre2 when it comes to that. Obviously the more jumpers the less degree of separation will be achieved.


Hmm, another ignorant quote. I didnít know the amount of people in the sky affected your ability to track, specifically decreasing it, learn something new everyday. Learn to track hard and far, wonít have to worry about a 90* off heading opening.

Quote:
I will likely have a good 100 more jumps on the 159 before it starts getting hot again. I am comfortable with the thinner air as it is really all I know.

Now that I just got my own gear and don't have to pay for rentals I will average 4-6 jumps per week, weather permitting.

Two instances where youíre planning on doing something. Congratulations, you PLAN on doing some jumps, look at the jumps you have NOW, not what you PLAN on doing.

Quote:
To jump a 150 The USPA downsizing chart recommends a minimum of 40 jumps for the lowest wing loading on the chart.

http://www.4xtremetime.com/...les/USPADOWNSIZE.pdf

As it was pointed you, you bravely posted this canopy recommendation chart, might as well remove the foot from your mouth, and then shoot it. Assuming youíre competent, you should be able to read the entire document, and realize how far off you are.

Quote:
I do not take skydiving and safety lightly. I don't plan on swooping my Safire2 159. It is not a hp canopy and would be considered a similar performance canopy as the Sabre2.

Isnít there a word for that attitude? Hypocrit? You have contradicted yourself far too much with that statement. See quote above this one, re: downsizing chart. Also, a very key phrase was used here ďI donít plan on swoopingÖĒ Search the forums and see how often that is. Iím sure youíre just going to do straight in approaches aswell?

Now, on topic, claiming the Sabre2 sucks, is way too harsh, and is a main reason why the bashing starts. You repeatedly say it sucks, stinks, and is a shitty canopy. A better topic title would have been ďSabre2, not for me!Ē Also, you could have posted this in the gear review, although with the limited experience the review would have been very short and bland.
I understand it has some characteristics you donít like and thus, donít want to jump it. Mine has heading issues, but it so worth it to get to fly it, someday youíll understand. Many people agree with the issues raised, well, atleast the closed endcells and wonky openings, but apparently they feel the way I do, that itís worth it. Also, had you done your research PD blatantly admits that at low wingloadings, the Sabre2 has a tendency to have close endcells, pump the brakes and the nightmare is over.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:46 AM
Post #104 of 126 (2036 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Not sure what your problem with me is... you seem REALLY offended by my post. Had some problems with your Sabre2 maybe? Not giving you any love?

I am way too old to get offended by something on the net. But I am tired of bagging and tagging hot shot young jumpers who get all puffed up about their crazy skills and havenít seen the ball since kick off.
Iíll make you a deal, in 5 years if you are still alive, still in the sport and not waking with a limp, I will get down on my knees and apologize for hurting you sensitivities. My name is Michael Owens; you pick the time and place.

Sparky

you took some shots at me, and I took some shots back... No hard feelings. Cheers.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:49 AM
Post #105 of 126 (2030 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're at Mile Hi? Go talk to Dan Raymond. He happens to know a thing or two about canopies and flying them in general. He would be able to help you. I'd ditch the attitude, though. He's already proven he knows what he is doing under canopy.

The 2008 & 9 US National Swooping Champion is also at my dz. We have some good resources here and I will go to them for their advice.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 11, 2009, 7:27 AM
Post #106 of 126 (2018 views)
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Re: [Blink] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's become obvious that there are some who have joined this thread solely to express their "opinion" about me and not the Saber2.

I can't even post a chart (that someone posted before me) without taking crap for it. I never said I was in line with the chart. I hadn't even seen it before yesterday. I have downsized at the recommendations and approval of my piers and dz instructors.

I realize I set the tone by titling the post as I did. I did not intend on offending anyone or attacking anyone personally. To anyone who took it this way I am sorry.

I don't think my opinion on the Sabre2 holds any water, but I would not say the same about some of those who agreed about the Sabre2's openings.

I Officially concede ALL my points and opinions to this point to be null and void.

The fact remains that there are still some good arguments both for and against the Sabre2 in the first half of this thread. I think someone considering buying a new canopy can take what they will from this and form an opinion.

When the sharks smell blood they attack... the bottom feeders then show up and nitpick for scraps.

I will leave the remainder of this thread to the sharks to debate the canopy should they so chose... The bottom feeders who simply came here to join in the negativity can stick around and continue to bash me as I'm sure it makes you feel better about yourselves.

I can take advice and criticisms from the sharks, but the bottom feeders can suck it...

PS- if you find yourself attacking me from anything I just said in this single post you are most likely one of the bottom feeders.

Thanks, Josh


Will_Evo  (B 32799)

Nov 11, 2009, 8:16 AM
Post #107 of 126 (1997 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your absolutely ridiculous. I came in here, with hard and definitive words because you ARE in this sport, what I didn't want to believe existed. I see on these forums a ton of times things I do no necessarily agree with, and sometimes dont understand why are even a issue, and I never understood why the micromanaging happens so much in this sport. But now I do. Its people with big attitudes, and big heads that think they know what they don't and end up doing something stupid.

I attacked you, because neither you nor me, know how to fly a canopy proficiently, and this includes being able to say so blatantly that one sucks. In order to say a canopy sucks, you gotta know what your doing under it, and I gotta say, at 49 and 90 jumps we have no clue. Basically, your making the rest of us new guys with a head on our shoulders, look bad, and add to the micromanaging that already exists in the sport. You got attacked, because you made some bold statements that implied you think your the shit.

I recommend taking a canopy course, I enjoyed mine. Good luckUnimpressed

-Evo


champu  (D 28302)

Nov 11, 2009, 1:01 PM
Post #108 of 126 (1933 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

The industry standard, well-known, indisputable, undying, and ubiquitously operative formula for the number of jumps you must make on a canopy before you can have a meaningful opinion as to whether it's a good canopy or not is as follows.

jumps on canopy = 1 + 99 * exp(your total jumps / -1500)


RanHam  (A License)

Nov 11, 2009, 4:31 PM
Post #109 of 126 (1878 views)
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Re: [champu] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I just got my A license and bought my own gear. I bought a Sabre2 170, I have 3 jumps on it. It has 300-400 jumps on it and looks brand new. The first two were packed by my rigger and openings were perfect (soft, straight) the last jump I packed it and I struggled a bit, not use to the zero p (I packed a student manta since my 7th jump with no problem) Opening was hard and threw me side ways a bit. When it first deployed I thought it was a malfunction thats how hard it threw me. But it completely inflated and was fine. I know 100% that that was caused by my pack job.


BrianM  (D 661)

Nov 11, 2009, 4:35 PM
Post #110 of 126 (1871 views)
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Re: [champu] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The industry standard, well-known, indisputable, undying, and ubiquitously operative formula for the number of jumps you must make on a canopy before you can have a meaningful opinion as to whether it's a good canopy or not is as follows.

jumps on canopy = 1 + 99 * exp(your total jumps / -1500)
Attachments: Jumps_Required.png (30.1 KB)


BadNinja  (A 99999)

Nov 11, 2009, 5:38 PM
Post #111 of 126 (1841 views)
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Re: [champu & BrianM] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The industry standard, well-known, indisputable, undying, and ubiquitously operative formula for the number of jumps you must make on a canopy before you can have a meaningful opinion as to whether it's a good canopy or not is as follows.

jumps on canopy = 1 + 99 * exp(your total jumps / -1500)

What a couple of nerds. Tongue


(This post was edited by BadNinja on Nov 11, 2009, 5:38 PM)


champu  (D 28302)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:02 PM
Post #112 of 126 (1823 views)
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Re: [BadNinja] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What a couple of nerds. Tongue

Who's the bigger nerd really? The guy pulling exponential decay functions out of his ass or the guy using gnuplot?


BadNinja  (A 99999)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:11 PM
Post #113 of 126 (1810 views)
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Re: [champu] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What a couple of nerds. Tongue

Who's the bigger nerd really? The guy pulling exponential decay functions out of his ass or the guy using gnuplot?

Tough call....


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 11, 2009, 7:25 PM
Post #114 of 126 (1776 views)
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Re: [BrianM] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey! I was truncated! No fair.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 11, 2009, 8:29 PM
Post #115 of 126 (1756 views)
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Re: [billvon] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, my post saying how great this thread was got deleted, admittedly because there was no content. Laugh I do have relevant experience (limited as it may be) but it seemed from the tone of the thread that posting my experience would have been a waste of time. Now, I do aspire to be a "bottom feeder" so here's my experience:

Sabre 2 190: ~50 jumps / openings no problem / 2nd canopy off student Navigators / .9:1
Sabre 2 170: ~50 jumps / closed end cells, off heading & hunting i.e. shitty openings / 3rd canopy / 1.1:1
Sabre 2 150: ~100+ jumps / slight end cell closure, off headings somewhat (probably me) i.e. good openings / 5th canopy / 1.23:1

Based on the awesome chart, I am qualified to comment on at least the 150. It's a great canopy. Files really well, the end cells are a bit closed but nowhere near as bad as my 170 was and I have off headings which I honestly believe are me.

My 4th canopy was a Safire 2 169. It was night & day compared to the Sabre 2 170, I loved the Safire 2. Still had off headings & (usually uneven) end cell closure but I think that was me too. Overall, the canopy was better behaved on opening.

Having spoken to a lot of people about the Sabre 2, I've been consistently been told that wing loading, differences in canopies and how recently the canopy was made make a big difference. For example I know that my 150 has extra webbing or something sewn onto the leading edge of the center 3 ribs whereas my 170 did not (IIRC).

Anyway, this thread is still hilarious. Laugh


BrianM  (D 661)

Nov 11, 2009, 11:11 PM
Post #116 of 126 (1728 views)
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Re: [champu] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What a couple of nerds. Tongue

Who's the bigger nerd really? The guy pulling exponential decay functions out of his ass or the guy using gnuplot?

Well, of course, the bigger nerd is - wait, are we arguing over who is the bigger nerd, or who isn't?


Cloudi  (C 35301)

Nov 12, 2009, 11:29 AM
Post #117 of 126 (1650 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The reason why I started this thread was because of the number of new jumpers at my dz straight off AFF talking about how they are going to get a Sabre2.

No, the reason you started this thread was to stir shit and you've got your wish.

Instead of scanning your logbook, I think the better solution would be to post a video of you packing your parachute (any modern design will do) then getting out of the plane with it and deploying it. That would be much more telling, I guarantee.

IF you reach 1000 jumps, and we all hope that you do, maybe you'll have the good fortune to meet some of these people who you think are "attacking" you and share some stories and a few beers. Your ears will be open and your mouth will be shut and you guys can all laugh about what a cocky, deaf, loudmouth you used to be at 49 jumps.


Chubba  (A 10160)

Nov 13, 2009, 4:49 AM
Post #118 of 126 (1580 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's become obvious that there are some who have joined this thread solely to express their "opinion" about me and not the Saber2.

EDIT: LOL opps.

That was a big rant at the wrong person.


(This post was edited by Chubba on Nov 13, 2009, 4:52 AM)


ChrisL  (C 35323)

Nov 13, 2009, 8:42 AM
Post #119 of 126 (1537 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I speak from some experience, here. More than 65 types of parachutes flown, and more than 200 if you count different sizes in those types.

The Sabre 2 suffers from inconsistent openings. The Safire 1 had a very anemic flare. The Pilot needs a full control stroke to land well, where the Sabre 2 flares like many other PD products, with the "meat" of the flare tin the top two thirds of the control stroke.

I'm not Mr. Experience, but I agree with this totally.
I had a Sabre2 210 and a Sabre2 190.
Both of them opened off heading 85% of the time. Sometimes WAY off heading.
I switched to a Pilot 188 and the problem went away immediately, so its not likely it was a body position issue.

Both Sabre2's flew and landed beautifully, but the openings were always all over the place.


(This post was edited by ChrisL on Nov 13, 2009, 8:43 AM)


Lucky123  (B 32658)

Nov 13, 2009, 9:50 AM
Post #120 of 126 (1515 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Getting close to 100 jumps on my Sabre2 170 and I have zero complaints! Angelic


(This post was edited by Lucky123 on Nov 13, 2009, 9:51 AM)


Tolgak  (B 32833)

Nov 13, 2009, 10:38 AM
Post #121 of 126 (1494 views)
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Re: [Lucky123] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

My club has a Sabre2 190 that I use when our larger rigs are not available. Even with the quite high wing loading I have using it, the only issue I have is a slight turn immediately after opening. It's corrected by shifting my weight. I have had no issues with off-heading openings, no issues with stability. It even flares better than our Spectre 210. It is the favored canopy of many of the club members.

I don't have much experience, but it is canopy I'm considering buying when the money comes.


champu  (D 28302)

Nov 16, 2009, 3:23 PM
Post #122 of 126 (1348 views)
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Re: [BrianM] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What a couple of nerds. Tongue
Who's the bigger nerd really? The guy pulling exponential decay functions out of his ass or the guy using gnuplot?

Well, of course, the bigger nerd is - wait, are we arguing over who is the bigger nerd, or who isn't?

Based on the principle of excluded middle, we're arguing both.


koppel  (F License)

Nov 19, 2009, 3:38 AM
Post #123 of 126 (1217 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I also cannot tell you why some guys like blondes and some other guys like redheads.

there are people that like women other than a redhead. Fools!!!


sagan  (D 29467)

Nov 24, 2009, 8:53 AM
Post #124 of 126 (1071 views)
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Re: [koppel] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The openings are what I would call medium, I wish it opened a bit faster actually. My old canopy would open in about 300-400ft (PD 9 cell) this saber is about 500ft.

I thought this was the funniest part of the thread... Try jumping a Safire2, XF2, Katana etc and snivel a 1000ft when it's packed with a rolled nose.

500ft is a pretty standard and "quick" opening given most current offerings on the market.


jakee  (C License)

Nov 24, 2009, 9:06 AM
Post #125 of 126 (1060 views)
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Re: [sagan] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I thought this was the funniest part of the thread... Try jumping a Safire2, XF2, Katana etc and snivel a 1000ft when it's packed with a rolled nose.

What kind of numpty would roll the nose on any of those canopies?


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