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the Saber2 sucks!

 

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Reginald  (D 28162)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:02 AM
Post #26 of 126 (2012 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Hard openings, closed end cells, and off heading more often than not. Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

Really? Iím guessing your packing and body position are terrible as most people at 50 jumps are. Before you blame your equipment maybe look at yourself first.

I have about 1,500 jumps on 3 different size Sabre2ís. Iíve had a handful of hard openings and they were clearly my fault as I was learning how to pack. Funny that slider thing is important. Wink

Iíve found that a head high body position on deployment helps enormously on opening. I can tell the difference between being ďflatĒ and ďsitting upĒ when I throw my PC. When Iím head high the openings are butter soft. When Iím flat they are slightly more random, but not hard. On the few occasions Iíve been head low the openings are much more brisk.

The vast majority of my openings are on heading. Body position and packing clearly make a difference here too. I will say that the canopy probably has less on heading openings than some canopies though.

Hmm, so packing and body position matter. Go figure!

The Sabre2 is one of the best all around canopies Iíve flown. It is sporty at high WL and predictable at low WL. And the flare is unbelievable. Properly flared I can essentially shut it down in any wind conditions and density altitude.

Iíve owned other canopies but have recently settled in to flying my S2. Why, because it is predictable, with soft openings, it is sporty at my WL and yet I can land it anywhere, anytime in any conditions. Sounds like a fine combination to me.


JackC  (B License)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:21 AM
Post #27 of 126 (2004 views)
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Re: [Reginald] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
I recently bought a brand new Sabre2 and I was just about ready to send it back and buy a Pilot because it slammed me all the time and opened off heading. Altering my pack jobs and deploying slightly head high seem to have fixed this.

So you're saying that proper packing and body position were the issue? Wink

I'm really hoping so because whiplash sucks.Pirate


dragon2  (D 101989)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:30 AM
Post #28 of 126 (1997 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

We've had at least 2 crappy sabre2's at our DZ, one sabre 2 150 opened HARD (like, gunshot going off) and in a turn always, no matter who jumped it, and a sabre 2 190 opened in a diving-type left turn always, had to be chopped on a wingsuit jump.

Other sabre2s we here have are great.

I think there's a lot of variance between sabre2s. Both our trouble canopies were early ones, maybe things have changed by now. I wouldn't buy a 2nd hand one before jumping it. For beginners though I can imagine some trouble brought on yourself, as the sabre2 is a fairly hp canopy that is more sensitive to opening attitudes than say spectre, safire, pilot.


(This post was edited by dragon2 on Nov 9, 2009, 9:31 AM)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:00 AM
Post #29 of 126 (1983 views)
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Re: [MajorDad] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Hard openings, closed end cells, and off heading more often than not. Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

Learn to pack...

Seriously though, I bought a Sabre2 a few years ago as I started to do large way formations where a Spinetto wasn't the best choice of canopies.

The opening characteristics proved to be such that I bought a matching Sabre2 for my backup rig.

Perhaps at 49 jumps you have more to learn......

Blue Ones,

ALL of my jumps on the Saber2 (~20) and the Spectre (~20) were packed by our DZ packers who are all excellent.

Also I found the same issues on each saber2 I've jumped (210, 190, 170). I didn't have nearly the same opening issues with the various Spectres when comparing the two. I do agree that it has nice flare which makes for smooth landings.

I am more concerned about my openings, especially in larger groups with lower break-offs, and avoiding canopy collisions and close calls. My last jump on a Saber2 170 opened so hard my shoe almost whipped off and it did a full 180* off-heading.

From what I've read in the replies, many of those with the highest levels of experience and jump numbers confirm some of the issues raised. And those with ~500 jumps or less and have prob jumped primarily a Saber2 (that they likely got as their first canopy) are the ones most strongly defending it.

I hope any nubies such as myself will read all the replies and if their considering buying a new canopy will at least try a couple different ones before simply ordering a Saber2 because their popular.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:09 AM
Post #30 of 126 (1973 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

your packers may not be as good as you think they are. They are packing machines - the more and faster they pack - the more they make.

do yourself a favor, and do a packjob yourself, using the Sabre tips provided in many threads in this forum. Then see how this works out.

Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:17 AM
Post #31 of 126 (1967 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, I realize not EVERYONE will experience the same issues regardless of experience. Many said that they have off-heading openings and don't seem to care.

If you have a Saber2 and like it thats great. If you have a Saber2 and admit that you have some hard and off-heading openings, maybe consider a few rides on something else to see if you like it better.

Just saying I wouldn't buy one.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:47 AM
Post #32 of 126 (1950 views)
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Re: [likestojump] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER

Haha, oops... whatever. Sabre2, Spectre, Safire2... I'll keep all their spellings straight one of these days.

but I like how at first it was my packing, now it's the dz packers, we have about 15 by the way. It is not the packer, how finicky can the Sabre2 be? Like I said, not the same degree of issues with the Spectre openings. If the packing needs to be so maticulous, again... I don't want one, but I'm glad you like yours.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:56 AM
Post #33 of 126 (1944 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER

Haha, oops... whatever. Sabre2, Spectre, Safire2... I'll keep all their spellings straight one of these days.

but I like how at first it was my packing, now it's the dz packers, we have about 15 by the way. It is not the packer, how finicky can the Sabre2 be? Like I said, not the same degree of issues with the Spectre openings. If the packing needs to be so maticulous, again... I don't want one, but I'm glad you like yours.

friend of yours ? http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3718663
What I told you was a very subjective statement based on having jumped lots of different models and sizes.

Almost any 9 cell will be more finicky than a 7 cell (Sabre vs Spectre), that's a fact.
Like otheres have said, try a few different wings, and see what you like. With the large amount of Sabre2's on the market, it's just not feasable that they all suck, but no one is saying it.

And for the record, my personal canopy is a not a Sabre2, please don't assume.


Bad_Boy

Nov 9, 2009, 11:08 AM
Post #34 of 126 (1936 views)
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Re: [likestojump] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

I am not a big expert in canopies yet, but have jumped a handful myself and Sabre2 170 was my first canopy. I might be biased myself since this was my first canopy and I positively loved it. Made over 100 jumps on it, had several line twists and one brisk opening on pretty high altitude (at about 8000 feet). But the message I wanted to tell is this - I learned a lot when trying to pack it and maintain perfect body position. I fought off heading openings assuming that canopy is perfectly OK and altering my pack job. Believe me, everything is because of your own hands (or those of packers) :). By the way, I had a cutaway on my 2-nd jump after completing AFF and it was a packer's job! They are great people, but they also get tired.
After working my way to perfect openings and trying other canopies I say - close to a perfect all round canopy. Maybe your had some manufacturing defect.
Now I am trying to tame Crossfire 2 Wink


(This post was edited by Bad_Boy on Nov 9, 2009, 11:10 AM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Nov 9, 2009, 11:10 AM
Post #35 of 126 (1934 views)
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Re: [likestojump] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Best advice given here IMO is to pack it yourself.I transitioned from a Sabre (original) 190 to a Safire 189 after my Sabre opened so hard it broke 9 lines. The first 10 or so jumps on the Safire the openings were horrible - off heading, diving, etc. Turns out it was all in my packing. On my Sabre I had to roll the nose really tight to keep from getting slammed - well, rolling the nose like that on a Safire makes one side inflate before the other, leading to the squirrely openings. I experimented a bit with different packing techniques and now have exteremely soft, consistant head-on openings.
Best bet would be get with PD and see what they recommend on packing...


spootch  (C License)

Nov 9, 2009, 12:18 PM
Post #36 of 126 (1901 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER

Haha, oops... whatever. Sabre2, Spectre, Safire2... I'll keep all their spellings straight one of these days.

but I like how at first it was my packing, now it's the dz packers, we have about 15 by the way. It is not the packer, how finicky can the Sabre2 be? Like I said, not the same degree of issues with the Spectre openings. If the packing needs to be so maticulous, again... I don't want one, but I'm glad you like yours.

Sabre 2 are not finiky to pack. I pack mine with no "magick" tecnique passed on from packer to packer. Truth is they do tend to open hard sometimes and in most cases they do open off heading, almost always with end cell closure (unless they have just finished slamming you)Tongue
I got sick of the occasional shit kicking openings on my super sabre, got in touch with PD and they sent me one size larger slider, for free! and that helps the "blam" effect . It still has the other anoyance quirks but you can't beat that wicked they have!

375 jumps on sabre2 170


buff  (D 30567)

Nov 9, 2009, 12:41 PM
Post #37 of 126 (1883 views)
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Re: [spootch] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ALL of my jumps on the Saber2 (~20) and the Spectre (~20) were packed by our DZ packers who are all excellent.

Maybe your packers secretly hate you.
I'm sure I've seen this on a Tee shirt somewhere.


Will_Evo  (B 32799)

Nov 9, 2009, 1:43 PM
Post #38 of 126 (1853 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

You have 50 jumps, and you seem to know for sure its not the pack job? Youve only jumped the damn thing 20 times. I had and still have some off heading openings, and when I first started jumping my Spectre, was not happy with it...but after a while, on heading openings are coming more frequently, and I attribute that to the experience I have gained through packing over and over. Controlling the nose while packing, and putting the canopy in the D bag symmetrically, will play a huge role in an on or off heading opening.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER

Haha, oops... whatever. Sabre2, Spectre, Safire2... I'll keep all their spellings straight one of these days.

but I like how at first it was my packing, now it's the dz packers, we have about 15 by the way. It is not the packer, how finicky can the Sabre2 be? Like I said, not the same degree of issues with the Spectre openings. If the packing needs to be so maticulous, again... I don't want one, but I'm glad you like yours.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 2:29 PM
Post #39 of 126 (1828 views)
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Re: [Will_Evo] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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You have 50 jumps, and you seem to know for sure its not the pack job? Youve only jumped the damn thing 20 times. I had and still have some off heading openings, and when I first started jumping my Spectre, was not happy with it...but after a while, on heading openings are coming more frequently, and I attribute that to the experience I have gained through packing over and over. Controlling the nose while packing, and putting the canopy in the D bag symmetrically, will play a huge role in an on or off heading opening.

How many times do I need to say it... I DID NOT HAVE THE SAME ISSUES WITH THE SPECTRE CANOPIES!!!

I don't think one would need to do more than 20 jumps on a canopy to decide wether or not they like it, and I happen to not like the Sabre2.

"Packing and body position, packing and body position".... then why when I'm doing nothing differently does the Spectre, Safire2 seem to have better openings?.... I'll tell you why.. because they do.

I will take the inexperienced shots on the chin, but what do you say to those that have thousands of jumps and agree with inconsistent openings.

I think nearly half or more of the replies, admit to hard or off-heading openings, enough of a trend for me... but my mind was already made up from my own experiences.


BadNinja  (A 99999)

Nov 9, 2009, 2:48 PM
Post #40 of 126 (1816 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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ALL of my jumps on the Saber2 (~20) and the Spectre (~20) were packed by our DZ packers who are all excellent.

Also I found the same issues on each saber2 I've jumped (210, 190, 170). I didn't have nearly the same opening issues with the various Spectres when comparing the two. I do agree that it has nice flare which makes for smooth landings.

I am more concerned about my openings, especially in larger groups with lower break-offs, and avoiding canopy collisions and close calls. My last jump on a Saber2 170 opened so hard my shoe almost whipped off and it did a full 180* off-heading.

From what I've read in the replies, many of those with the highest levels of experience and jump numbers confirm some of the issues raised. And those with ~500 jumps or less and have prob jumped primarily a Saber2 (that they likely got as their first canopy) are the ones most strongly defending it.

I hope any nubies such as myself will read all the replies and if their considering buying a new canopy will at least try a couple different ones before simply ordering a Saber2 because their popular.

You got some mighty strong opinions for someone with very little experience. Careful, or that will bite you in the ass one day.

You may just not like the Sabre2. Doesn't make it a shitty canopy. Just find yourself a canopy you DO like; lots of choices out there. It's never a bad idea to shop around and demo lots of different canopies before committing to buying one.

Personally, 95% of my jumps have been on a Sabre2 (190, 170, 150). Only once did I have a hard opening and, while end cell closure/turns on opening seem endemic to the canopy, I've found that proper packing technique and good body position minimize those issues pretty effectively.


Will_Evo  (B 32799)

Nov 9, 2009, 3:03 PM
Post #41 of 126 (1805 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ALL of my jumps on the Saber2 (~20) and the Spectre (~20) were packed by our DZ packers who are all excellent.

Also I found the same issues on each saber2 I've jumped (210, 190, 170). I didn't have nearly the same opening issues with the various Spectres when comparing the two. I do agree that it has nice flare which makes for smooth landings.

So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Also, you claim to be able to tell the difference between the flare? Not to beat my own drum, but I am catching on to this sport rather quickly, and have some canopy camps and some CReW jumps under my belt and STILL havn't mastered landing in all conditions, that, just takes time...and I am jumping a Spectre. Once again, something isn't adding up. Crazy

-Evo

Edit to Add: I am talking about EXPERIMENTING not just flying the canopy light and soft to the ground...which undoubtedly, for your first 20 or so jumps, you did, both because of fear, and inexperience. Experimenting involves working the risers, the toggles, taking it to stall point, practice flares, packing the parachute(which obviously you did not and have nothing to compare with) etc...


(This post was edited by Will_Evo on Nov 9, 2009, 3:10 PM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 9, 2009, 3:16 PM
Post #42 of 126 (1789 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumping a canopy is love and hate. You either get use to it or move on! Whinning would not help you. Demo, demo, demo .... I have I told you demo?Wink
There are popular models and hidden gems.

Every canopy is an individual more or less. There are great ones, there are bad ones too.

Find a canopy which fits your style or purpose!


dorbie

Nov 9, 2009, 3:24 PM
Post #43 of 126 (1784 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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My last jump on a Saber2 170 opened so hard my shoe almost whipped off and it did a full 180* off-heading.

Tie your shoe laces and learn to track.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 3:56 PM
Post #44 of 126 (1756 views)
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Re: [dorbie] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Wow, why is this so hard to believe? Did you keep jumping a Navigator after AFF until you got your 'A'? If so, sorry must have been real boring. I used Nav 260s to 230s during AFF. After AFF I started using our rental rigs which is recommended at my DZ. Those happen to be either Sabre2's or Spectres. I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.

'The Sabre2 sucks', is just my opinion... some agree with me and some don't. There must be some validity to it or this thread wouldn't have had more than 3 replies.

It's just my opion... and only matters to me???

I HAVE BOUGHT A SAFIRE2 AND I'M EXTREMELY HAPPY!!!


ghost47  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 4:08 PM
Post #45 of 126 (1744 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.
Greeaaatttt . . . Now you just opened that whole OTHER can of worms . . .

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 4:15 PM
Post #46 of 126 (1736 views)
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Re: [ghost47] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.
Greeaaatttt . . . Now you just opened that whole OTHER can of worms . . .

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

let's also not forget that the OP jumps at MileHi, which is a bit above sea level.

I also like the blind trust into the Safire2's (which in my mind re great canopies just like Sabre2's)


Chubba  (A 10160)

Nov 9, 2009, 5:41 PM
Post #47 of 126 (1703 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Hard openings, closed end cells, and off heading more often than not. Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

Hard opening on a Sabre2? Never heard that from anyone before. I get 700-800ft with just pushing the nose back, I remember when I first got my Sabre2 and I was rolling the nose, 1000ft.

Closed end cells, yep, had them 100% of my jumps. I asked my rigger if there was anything to worry about, he said "Nop, it's often an indicator of soft openings, are your openings soft?"... hell yeah, they're like butter. They inflated in 3-5 seconds anyway, but I just pump my rears after opening/adjust heading.

Off heading, I agree too, used to do 180's for the first ~100 jumps, but with my better body position and awareness I'm NEVER turning over 90 now. I have faith that I can open the Sabre2 on-heading, it's just taking a lot of work.

All that aside, I got the canopy for it's flare power landing straight in, it treats me EXTREMELY well, nearly 200 jumps on my Sabre2, 1 downwind landing (walked away), otherwise 100% standups.


sunshine  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 5:56 PM
Post #48 of 126 (1692 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't care for the Sabre2 either. I found the openings to be rather brisk and i definitely know it wasn't due to packing. I put about 400-500 jumps on a sabre2 and was very glad when i finally sold it. I don't understand the popularity either.


captain1976  (D 7183)

Nov 9, 2009, 6:18 PM
Post #49 of 126 (1675 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting thread. Looks like a lot of people with various issues on the Saber2. Hard openings, off heading, need to pack certain ways and be conscious of good body position on every jump. Sounds like a real pain in the ass to me.

I jump a Spectre and never had anything but soft, reliable, consistent and on heading openings on each and every jump regardless of body position or the way its packed. The last thing I want to think about on a jump is how it will open. I know how it will open without any surprises a lot of Saber2 pilots have.

Its also easy to land, and though it may not be a great swooping canopy, I donít do that anyway.

Additionally, I havenít run across any threads here with complaints about Spectres, just the contrary.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 6:28 PM
Post #50 of 126 (1667 views)
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Re: [captain1976] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I cutaway a wildly spinning Spectre a few months ago. I also had some slammers and some linetwists as well as hard openings on Spectres. Granted I have had the same on Sabres, Jedis and others. Crossfires and Katanas and Jedis have also given me linetwists. But I won't say any of them are bad canopies. More elliptical higher aspect ratio canopies are more sensetive to packing and body position. Lower aspect ratio canopies won't give you nowhere near as powerful of a flare as their higher aspect brothers, especially if loaded lightly.

On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! To promote nose-first (heading setting) inflation, it takes a bit more than just throwing canopy into the wind. Think of how the reserve is packed, and presented to the wind right after the freebag comes off - nose open - nose first. A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.


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