Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
the Saber2 sucks!

 


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:21 PM
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the Saber2 sucks! Can't Post

Hard openings, closed end cells, and off heading more often than not. Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?


mtbriles  (F 1)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:31 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure it was a saber2???

Unimpressed


swoopfly  (E License)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:32 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

hey


well this seems odd, as every sabre2 i have jumped has had nice openings and were most always on heading,. maybe your just not packing it right???, but the canopy seems nice for an all around canopy...the best thing i liked about them was there openings...well before i bought my katana


Couloirman  (A 51997)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:41 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hard openings,

You're just new to packing, and you're probably not packing it right

In reply to:
closed end cells

Not a safety issue, you're just new and you get scared when you see it, thinking its a 'malfunction' but if you pump the brakes or risers and it goes away and doesn't affect anything

In reply to:
off heading more often than not

This is skydiving, not BASE jumping, its not a safety issue. You want on heading openings? then open while tracking with a little bit of forward speed. No one can get consistent on headings falling straight down.

In reply to:
Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

Beacause they're not shitty, they've got kick ass flare power, and a perfect recovery arc for learning how to swoop on.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:43 PM
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Re: [swoopfly] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I just keep hearing students that are getting off AFF who have only flown a Navagator and their already ordering a Saber2. Please people ride some other canopies first, guarantee you will find something you like better than the Saber2.

Granted I only have ~50 jumps, but about 20 are on the Saber2 and 20 on the Spectre2. I actually prefer the Spectre2 in nearly every aspect. Thankfully I was turned onto the Saphire2 and just got one.... YAY!!!


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:44 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmmmmm......

People buy and jump them because they are good canopies. So, have you considered the following as playing a role in one or more of your concerns?

-- Is it being packed correctly?
-- How is your body positon during deployment?
-- Is the line set in trim?
-- Are you using the correct slider?
-- What does your rigger have to say about your canopy?


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:47 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Spectre2"

And that would be what?


mtbriles  (F 1)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:50 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

when did they come out with the spectre2???

Unimpressed


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:50 PM
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Spectre2"

And that would be what?

just meant to say Spectre...


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 8, 2009, 8:52 PM
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Re: [Couloirman] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
off heading more often than not

This is skydiving, not BASE jumping, its not a safety issue. You want on heading openings? then open while tracking with a little bit of forward speed. No one can get consistent on headings falling straight down.


Really? It is a safety issue. Having a 180 when skydiving with groups can turn into a problem, fast. An yes people can get consistent on headings while falling straight down. You might want to get a bit more experience on more than one or two types of parachute before making such a sweeping generalization.

And I agree with the OP. They do open hard from time to time, inconsistently, with closed end cells, and a higher than normal percentage of line twists than I see out of other designs. But then for some time, PD has been focusing on flight more than openings.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 8, 2009, 9:24 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ride,

Quote:
Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

I cannot tell you why they buy them but I can tell you that it is the most popular canopy that PD sells; I know because the PD V-P told me so.

JerryBaumchen

PS) I also cannot tell you why some guys like blondes and some other guys like redheads. Wink


hackish  (No License)

Nov 8, 2009, 9:35 PM
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Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's tough to criticize one of the most popular canopies in the air. They are not known for hard openings (some size sabre1's a different story). They are known for off heading. Closed end cells? Few people I know care enough to complain about it.

Name any canopy and someone will have something bad to say about it. Find something you like and jump it.

-Michael


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 8, 2009, 9:43 PM
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Re: [hackish] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I speak from some experience, here. More than 65 types of parachutes flown, and more than 200 if you count different sizes in those types.

The Sabre 2 suffers from inconsistent openings. The Safire 1 had a very anemic flare. The Pilot needs a full control stroke to land well, where the Sabre 2 flares like many other PD products, with the "meat" of the flare tin the top two thirds of the control stroke.


bigway

Nov 8, 2009, 10:02 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

My first sabre 2 was always off heading openings, and hard on opening.
I sold it for a safire 2.
Many people jumped that canopy as they all gave me the learn to pack crap and open stable etc. They then also said the canopy was as i claimed.

A year later i decided seeing I was in the gear industry I should probably jump a ton of different canopies so I had some sort of opinion and not just from the canopies I owned.

I jumped five different Sabre 2's 4 or 5 times each and all five opened fine and were on heading. Not super soft like safire but not hard either for a quick opening canopy.

I think my canopy i gave up on was a one off.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 8, 2009, 10:33 PM
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Re: [swoopfly] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

An early S2 I jumped turned 90 right on opening pretty much every jump. A later edition S2 107 did not have the problem, so it might have been something that got fixed.


LongWayToFall  (A 52639)

Nov 8, 2009, 11:19 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

My saber2 190 does have off heading openings, but it is slow enough where the risk of line twists isn't much, and after it is done making it's turn it flies straight. The openings are what I would call medium, I wish it opened a bit faster actually. My old canopy would open in about 300-400ft (PD 9 cell) this saber is about 500ft.
The place where the saber shines, is the flare.


Bip  (D 573)

Nov 9, 2009, 12:04 AM
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Re: [LongWayToFall] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the OP has a point. I found the Sabre2 to have off heading and occasionally diving openings. A great canopy to fly but I did not like opening up in groups. I bought a Pulse instead. Cool


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Nov 9, 2009, 12:44 AM
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Re: [hackish] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's tough to criticize one of the most popular canopies in the air.

I don't.

I wouldn't say they suck exactly (I'm jumping a demo at the moment and quite like it) but with the exception of "hard opening" I'd say he's bang on.

The only things that seem to open more in almost as random directions (and less completely) than my Vision, no matter who the packer is, are the three or four Sabre2s I've borrowed at different times.

And before you all shout "body position", I'd ask why this doesn't happen to me on Pilots, Spectres or even that ZP.EXE a few weeks ago Tongue

Back to the Sabre2 for a moment: The openings seem to get better as they get smaller, and as other people have commented, it has a lovely graceful recovery arc and the flare is great.

Popular? Sure, and with reason. Hard to criticise? Nope.


(This post was edited by Joellercoaster on Nov 9, 2009, 12:46 AM)


JackC  (B License)

Nov 9, 2009, 2:14 AM
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Re: [Joellercoaster] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I recently bought a brand new Sabre2 and I was just about ready to send it back and buy a Pilot because it slammed me all the time and opened off heading. Altering my pack jobs and deploying slightly head high seem to have fixed this.


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Nov 9, 2009, 2:37 AM
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Re: [Joellercoaster] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have over 200 jumps on my Sabre2. I have had line twists 2 times and in both cases it was due to my body position. In the past 20 or so jumps I've had 1 off headed opening. I've never had hard openings on it. Maybe my canopy is a mislabeled Pilot/Safire/Spectre because I don't understand what all this bitching is about. The only explanation I can think of is confirmation bias since I doubt most people actually keep a record on whether or not they had an off headed opening or not.


Blink  (C 3275)

Nov 9, 2009, 6:36 AM
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Re: [Arvoitus] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got 250+ jumps on my Sabre2, I've have two line twists scenerios. I've never had closed end cells, but it's supposed to be more prominent at lighter loadings. On heading openings probably 75% of the time. Favorite canopy so far, and plan an getting another later on.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 7:38 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am guessing the OP is making a statement about a product line based on having sampled a SINGLE canopy. Could have been a bad canopy. I say give a few others a chance, you may be pleasantly surprised. I have flown about 30 different Sabre2's from 107 to 210, and for the most part I was happy with them. Your mileage may vary.


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 7:54 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's all about personal preference. I totally agree with you that people should try a few canopies before buying instead of choosing what they're told is best. But I love the sabre2. I don't get hard openings on mine. I had a few brisk ones a few years ago, but it was out of trim and in need of a reline. New lines put a stop to that. And none of them were really HARD openings like I've heard about on spectres numerous times. Ok ok, some people have had hard openings on sabre2's as well... but the spectre is not immune.

My openings are usually off heading. I have well over 1000 jumps on my Sabre2 and I rarely get an on-heading opening. Unless you count a complete 360 or one of those that swings 90 right then 90 left or whatever. I've tried every tip from keeping my feet together during the snivel to steering with rear risers to keeping my hands off my risers. Nothing has helped. A PD rep packed it for me once (very carefully to demonstrate all his packing tips) and I still got a 270 on opening.

But the openings are pretty much always smoooooth and soft. I am not picky about packers... I get the same openings when I pack it, when a rigger packs it, or when a jumper's 8-year-old granddaughter packs it (ok haven't actually found one that will pack start to finish yet). With cameras on my head, it makes me very comfortable that I can have confidence that my next opening is going to be as soft as my last one no matter how ugly that pack job looked.

Closed end cells are really nothing to complain about. They open on their own within a few seconds... by the time the canopy has finished doing its thing on opening and is flying straight.

But to me, the flare makes the canopy. It's worth the off heading openings for such a nice landing. I really don't like the way spectres flare. I'm sure there are other canopies that flare just as well as the sabre2 and have better openings, but I haven't jumped one myself.

I'll be sending mine to PD for its 3rd lineset over the winter. No plans to get rid of the canopy any time soon.

Some people love em, some people hate em. That's why you've gotta try before you buy.

Dave


MajorDad  (D 579)

Nov 9, 2009, 8:05 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hard openings, closed end cells, and off heading more often than not. Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

Learn to pack...

Seriously though, I bought a Sabre2 a few years ago as I started to do large way formations where a Spinetto wasn't the best choice of canopies.

The opening characteristics proved to be such that I bought a matching Sabre2 for my backup rig.

Perhaps at 49 jumps you have more to learn......

Blue Ones,


Reginald  (D 28162)

Nov 9, 2009, 8:42 AM
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Re: [JackC] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I recently bought a brand new Sabre2 and I was just about ready to send it back and buy a Pilot because it slammed me all the time and opened off heading. Altering my pack jobs and deploying slightly head high seem to have fixed this.

So you're saying that proper packing and body position were the issue? Wink


Reginald  (D 28162)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:02 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hard openings, closed end cells, and off heading more often than not. Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

Really? Iím guessing your packing and body position are terrible as most people at 50 jumps are. Before you blame your equipment maybe look at yourself first.

I have about 1,500 jumps on 3 different size Sabre2ís. Iíve had a handful of hard openings and they were clearly my fault as I was learning how to pack. Funny that slider thing is important. Wink

Iíve found that a head high body position on deployment helps enormously on opening. I can tell the difference between being ďflatĒ and ďsitting upĒ when I throw my PC. When Iím head high the openings are butter soft. When Iím flat they are slightly more random, but not hard. On the few occasions Iíve been head low the openings are much more brisk.

The vast majority of my openings are on heading. Body position and packing clearly make a difference here too. I will say that the canopy probably has less on heading openings than some canopies though.

Hmm, so packing and body position matter. Go figure!

The Sabre2 is one of the best all around canopies Iíve flown. It is sporty at high WL and predictable at low WL. And the flare is unbelievable. Properly flared I can essentially shut it down in any wind conditions and density altitude.

Iíve owned other canopies but have recently settled in to flying my S2. Why, because it is predictable, with soft openings, it is sporty at my WL and yet I can land it anywhere, anytime in any conditions. Sounds like a fine combination to me.


JackC  (B License)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:21 AM
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Re: [Reginald] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I recently bought a brand new Sabre2 and I was just about ready to send it back and buy a Pilot because it slammed me all the time and opened off heading. Altering my pack jobs and deploying slightly head high seem to have fixed this.

So you're saying that proper packing and body position were the issue? Wink

I'm really hoping so because whiplash sucks.Pirate


dragon2  (D 101989)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:30 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

We've had at least 2 crappy sabre2's at our DZ, one sabre 2 150 opened HARD (like, gunshot going off) and in a turn always, no matter who jumped it, and a sabre 2 190 opened in a diving-type left turn always, had to be chopped on a wingsuit jump.

Other sabre2s we here have are great.

I think there's a lot of variance between sabre2s. Both our trouble canopies were early ones, maybe things have changed by now. I wouldn't buy a 2nd hand one before jumping it. For beginners though I can imagine some trouble brought on yourself, as the sabre2 is a fairly hp canopy that is more sensitive to opening attitudes than say spectre, safire, pilot.


(This post was edited by dragon2 on Nov 9, 2009, 9:31 AM)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:00 AM
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Re: [MajorDad] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Hard openings, closed end cells, and off heading more often than not. Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

Learn to pack...

Seriously though, I bought a Sabre2 a few years ago as I started to do large way formations where a Spinetto wasn't the best choice of canopies.

The opening characteristics proved to be such that I bought a matching Sabre2 for my backup rig.

Perhaps at 49 jumps you have more to learn......

Blue Ones,

ALL of my jumps on the Saber2 (~20) and the Spectre (~20) were packed by our DZ packers who are all excellent.

Also I found the same issues on each saber2 I've jumped (210, 190, 170). I didn't have nearly the same opening issues with the various Spectres when comparing the two. I do agree that it has nice flare which makes for smooth landings.

I am more concerned about my openings, especially in larger groups with lower break-offs, and avoiding canopy collisions and close calls. My last jump on a Saber2 170 opened so hard my shoe almost whipped off and it did a full 180* off-heading.

From what I've read in the replies, many of those with the highest levels of experience and jump numbers confirm some of the issues raised. And those with ~500 jumps or less and have prob jumped primarily a Saber2 (that they likely got as their first canopy) are the ones most strongly defending it.

I hope any nubies such as myself will read all the replies and if their considering buying a new canopy will at least try a couple different ones before simply ordering a Saber2 because their popular.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:09 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

your packers may not be as good as you think they are. They are packing machines - the more and faster they pack - the more they make.

do yourself a favor, and do a packjob yourself, using the Sabre tips provided in many threads in this forum. Then see how this works out.

Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:17 AM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, I realize not EVERYONE will experience the same issues regardless of experience. Many said that they have off-heading openings and don't seem to care.

If you have a Saber2 and like it thats great. If you have a Saber2 and admit that you have some hard and off-heading openings, maybe consider a few rides on something else to see if you like it better.

Just saying I wouldn't buy one.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Re: [likestojump] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER

Haha, oops... whatever. Sabre2, Spectre, Safire2... I'll keep all their spellings straight one of these days.

but I like how at first it was my packing, now it's the dz packers, we have about 15 by the way. It is not the packer, how finicky can the Sabre2 be? Like I said, not the same degree of issues with the Spectre openings. If the packing needs to be so maticulous, again... I don't want one, but I'm glad you like yours.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:56 AM
Post #33 of 126 (2024 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER

Haha, oops... whatever. Sabre2, Spectre, Safire2... I'll keep all their spellings straight one of these days.

but I like how at first it was my packing, now it's the dz packers, we have about 15 by the way. It is not the packer, how finicky can the Sabre2 be? Like I said, not the same degree of issues with the Spectre openings. If the packing needs to be so maticulous, again... I don't want one, but I'm glad you like yours.

friend of yours ? http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3718663
What I told you was a very subjective statement based on having jumped lots of different models and sizes.

Almost any 9 cell will be more finicky than a 7 cell (Sabre vs Spectre), that's a fact.
Like otheres have said, try a few different wings, and see what you like. With the large amount of Sabre2's on the market, it's just not feasable that they all suck, but no one is saying it.

And for the record, my personal canopy is a not a Sabre2, please don't assume.


Bad_Boy

Nov 9, 2009, 11:08 AM
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Re: [likestojump] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

I am not a big expert in canopies yet, but have jumped a handful myself and Sabre2 170 was my first canopy. I might be biased myself since this was my first canopy and I positively loved it. Made over 100 jumps on it, had several line twists and one brisk opening on pretty high altitude (at about 8000 feet). But the message I wanted to tell is this - I learned a lot when trying to pack it and maintain perfect body position. I fought off heading openings assuming that canopy is perfectly OK and altering my pack job. Believe me, everything is because of your own hands (or those of packers) :). By the way, I had a cutaway on my 2-nd jump after completing AFF and it was a packer's job! They are great people, but they also get tired.
After working my way to perfect openings and trying other canopies I say - close to a perfect all round canopy. Maybe your had some manufacturing defect.
Now I am trying to tame Crossfire 2 Wink


(This post was edited by Bad_Boy on Nov 9, 2009, 11:10 AM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Nov 9, 2009, 11:10 AM
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Re: [likestojump] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Best advice given here IMO is to pack it yourself.I transitioned from a Sabre (original) 190 to a Safire 189 after my Sabre opened so hard it broke 9 lines. The first 10 or so jumps on the Safire the openings were horrible - off heading, diving, etc. Turns out it was all in my packing. On my Sabre I had to roll the nose really tight to keep from getting slammed - well, rolling the nose like that on a Safire makes one side inflate before the other, leading to the squirrely openings. I experimented a bit with different packing techniques and now have exteremely soft, consistant head-on openings.
Best bet would be get with PD and see what they recommend on packing...


spootch  (C License)

Nov 9, 2009, 12:18 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER

Haha, oops... whatever. Sabre2, Spectre, Safire2... I'll keep all their spellings straight one of these days.

but I like how at first it was my packing, now it's the dz packers, we have about 15 by the way. It is not the packer, how finicky can the Sabre2 be? Like I said, not the same degree of issues with the Spectre openings. If the packing needs to be so maticulous, again... I don't want one, but I'm glad you like yours.

Sabre 2 are not finiky to pack. I pack mine with no "magick" tecnique passed on from packer to packer. Truth is they do tend to open hard sometimes and in most cases they do open off heading, almost always with end cell closure (unless they have just finished slamming you)Tongue
I got sick of the occasional shit kicking openings on my super sabre, got in touch with PD and they sent me one size larger slider, for free! and that helps the "blam" effect . It still has the other anoyance quirks but you can't beat that wicked they have!

375 jumps on sabre2 170


buff  (D 30567)

Nov 9, 2009, 12:41 PM
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Re: [spootch] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ALL of my jumps on the Saber2 (~20) and the Spectre (~20) were packed by our DZ packers who are all excellent.

Maybe your packers secretly hate you.
I'm sure I've seen this on a Tee shirt somewhere.


Will_Evo  (B 32799)

Nov 9, 2009, 1:43 PM
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

You have 50 jumps, and you seem to know for sure its not the pack job? Youve only jumped the damn thing 20 times. I had and still have some off heading openings, and when I first started jumping my Spectre, was not happy with it...but after a while, on heading openings are coming more frequently, and I attribute that to the experience I have gained through packing over and over. Controlling the nose while packing, and putting the canopy in the D bag symmetrically, will play a huge role in an on or off heading opening.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Lastly, for fucks sake, it's sabRE, NOT sabER

Haha, oops... whatever. Sabre2, Spectre, Safire2... I'll keep all their spellings straight one of these days.

but I like how at first it was my packing, now it's the dz packers, we have about 15 by the way. It is not the packer, how finicky can the Sabre2 be? Like I said, not the same degree of issues with the Spectre openings. If the packing needs to be so maticulous, again... I don't want one, but I'm glad you like yours.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 2:29 PM
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Re: [Will_Evo] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have 50 jumps, and you seem to know for sure its not the pack job? Youve only jumped the damn thing 20 times. I had and still have some off heading openings, and when I first started jumping my Spectre, was not happy with it...but after a while, on heading openings are coming more frequently, and I attribute that to the experience I have gained through packing over and over. Controlling the nose while packing, and putting the canopy in the D bag symmetrically, will play a huge role in an on or off heading opening.

How many times do I need to say it... I DID NOT HAVE THE SAME ISSUES WITH THE SPECTRE CANOPIES!!!

I don't think one would need to do more than 20 jumps on a canopy to decide wether or not they like it, and I happen to not like the Sabre2.

"Packing and body position, packing and body position".... then why when I'm doing nothing differently does the Spectre, Safire2 seem to have better openings?.... I'll tell you why.. because they do.

I will take the inexperienced shots on the chin, but what do you say to those that have thousands of jumps and agree with inconsistent openings.

I think nearly half or more of the replies, admit to hard or off-heading openings, enough of a trend for me... but my mind was already made up from my own experiences.


BadNinja  (A 99999)

Nov 9, 2009, 2:48 PM
Post #40 of 126 (1896 views)
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In reply to:
ALL of my jumps on the Saber2 (~20) and the Spectre (~20) were packed by our DZ packers who are all excellent.

Also I found the same issues on each saber2 I've jumped (210, 190, 170). I didn't have nearly the same opening issues with the various Spectres when comparing the two. I do agree that it has nice flare which makes for smooth landings.

I am more concerned about my openings, especially in larger groups with lower break-offs, and avoiding canopy collisions and close calls. My last jump on a Saber2 170 opened so hard my shoe almost whipped off and it did a full 180* off-heading.

From what I've read in the replies, many of those with the highest levels of experience and jump numbers confirm some of the issues raised. And those with ~500 jumps or less and have prob jumped primarily a Saber2 (that they likely got as their first canopy) are the ones most strongly defending it.

I hope any nubies such as myself will read all the replies and if their considering buying a new canopy will at least try a couple different ones before simply ordering a Saber2 because their popular.

You got some mighty strong opinions for someone with very little experience. Careful, or that will bite you in the ass one day.

You may just not like the Sabre2. Doesn't make it a shitty canopy. Just find yourself a canopy you DO like; lots of choices out there. It's never a bad idea to shop around and demo lots of different canopies before committing to buying one.

Personally, 95% of my jumps have been on a Sabre2 (190, 170, 150). Only once did I have a hard opening and, while end cell closure/turns on opening seem endemic to the canopy, I've found that proper packing technique and good body position minimize those issues pretty effectively.


Will_Evo  (B 32799)

Nov 9, 2009, 3:03 PM
Post #41 of 126 (1885 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ALL of my jumps on the Saber2 (~20) and the Spectre (~20) were packed by our DZ packers who are all excellent.

Also I found the same issues on each saber2 I've jumped (210, 190, 170). I didn't have nearly the same opening issues with the various Spectres when comparing the two. I do agree that it has nice flare which makes for smooth landings.

So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Also, you claim to be able to tell the difference between the flare? Not to beat my own drum, but I am catching on to this sport rather quickly, and have some canopy camps and some CReW jumps under my belt and STILL havn't mastered landing in all conditions, that, just takes time...and I am jumping a Spectre. Once again, something isn't adding up. Crazy

-Evo

Edit to Add: I am talking about EXPERIMENTING not just flying the canopy light and soft to the ground...which undoubtedly, for your first 20 or so jumps, you did, both because of fear, and inexperience. Experimenting involves working the risers, the toggles, taking it to stall point, practice flares, packing the parachute(which obviously you did not and have nothing to compare with) etc...


(This post was edited by Will_Evo on Nov 9, 2009, 3:10 PM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 9, 2009, 3:16 PM
Post #42 of 126 (1869 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumping a canopy is love and hate. You either get use to it or move on! Whinning would not help you. Demo, demo, demo .... I have I told you demo?Wink
There are popular models and hidden gems.

Every canopy is an individual more or less. There are great ones, there are bad ones too.

Find a canopy which fits your style or purpose!


dorbie

Nov 9, 2009, 3:24 PM
Post #43 of 126 (1864 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My last jump on a Saber2 170 opened so hard my shoe almost whipped off and it did a full 180* off-heading.

Tie your shoe laces and learn to track.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 3:56 PM
Post #44 of 126 (1836 views)
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Quote:
So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Wow, why is this so hard to believe? Did you keep jumping a Navigator after AFF until you got your 'A'? If so, sorry must have been real boring. I used Nav 260s to 230s during AFF. After AFF I started using our rental rigs which is recommended at my DZ. Those happen to be either Sabre2's or Spectres. I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.

'The Sabre2 sucks', is just my opinion... some agree with me and some don't. There must be some validity to it or this thread wouldn't have had more than 3 replies.

It's just my opion... and only matters to me???

I HAVE BOUGHT A SAFIRE2 AND I'M EXTREMELY HAPPY!!!


ghost47  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 4:08 PM
Post #45 of 126 (1824 views)
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In reply to:
I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.
Greeaaatttt . . . Now you just opened that whole OTHER can of worms . . .

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 4:15 PM
Post #46 of 126 (1816 views)
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Re: [ghost47] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.
Greeaaatttt . . . Now you just opened that whole OTHER can of worms . . .

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

let's also not forget that the OP jumps at MileHi, which is a bit above sea level.

I also like the blind trust into the Safire2's (which in my mind re great canopies just like Sabre2's)


Chubba  (A 10160)

Nov 9, 2009, 5:41 PM
Post #47 of 126 (1783 views)
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Quote:
Hard openings, closed end cells, and off heading more often than not. Why do so many people by these shitty canopies?

Hard opening on a Sabre2? Never heard that from anyone before. I get 700-800ft with just pushing the nose back, I remember when I first got my Sabre2 and I was rolling the nose, 1000ft.

Closed end cells, yep, had them 100% of my jumps. I asked my rigger if there was anything to worry about, he said "Nop, it's often an indicator of soft openings, are your openings soft?"... hell yeah, they're like butter. They inflated in 3-5 seconds anyway, but I just pump my rears after opening/adjust heading.

Off heading, I agree too, used to do 180's for the first ~100 jumps, but with my better body position and awareness I'm NEVER turning over 90 now. I have faith that I can open the Sabre2 on-heading, it's just taking a lot of work.

All that aside, I got the canopy for it's flare power landing straight in, it treats me EXTREMELY well, nearly 200 jumps on my Sabre2, 1 downwind landing (walked away), otherwise 100% standups.


sunshine  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 5:56 PM
Post #48 of 126 (1772 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't care for the Sabre2 either. I found the openings to be rather brisk and i definitely know it wasn't due to packing. I put about 400-500 jumps on a sabre2 and was very glad when i finally sold it. I don't understand the popularity either.


captain1976  (D 7183)

Nov 9, 2009, 6:18 PM
Post #49 of 126 (1755 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting thread. Looks like a lot of people with various issues on the Saber2. Hard openings, off heading, need to pack certain ways and be conscious of good body position on every jump. Sounds like a real pain in the ass to me.

I jump a Spectre and never had anything but soft, reliable, consistent and on heading openings on each and every jump regardless of body position or the way its packed. The last thing I want to think about on a jump is how it will open. I know how it will open without any surprises a lot of Saber2 pilots have.

Its also easy to land, and though it may not be a great swooping canopy, I donít do that anyway.

Additionally, I havenít run across any threads here with complaints about Spectres, just the contrary.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 6:28 PM
Post #50 of 126 (1747 views)
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Re: [captain1976] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I cutaway a wildly spinning Spectre a few months ago. I also had some slammers and some linetwists as well as hard openings on Spectres. Granted I have had the same on Sabres, Jedis and others. Crossfires and Katanas and Jedis have also given me linetwists. But I won't say any of them are bad canopies. More elliptical higher aspect ratio canopies are more sensetive to packing and body position. Lower aspect ratio canopies won't give you nowhere near as powerful of a flare as their higher aspect brothers, especially if loaded lightly.

On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! To promote nose-first (heading setting) inflation, it takes a bit more than just throwing canopy into the wind. Think of how the reserve is packed, and presented to the wind right after the freebag comes off - nose open - nose first. A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.


captain1976  (D 7183)

Nov 9, 2009, 6:43 PM
Post #51 of 126 (1426 views)
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I agree that the Spectre as well as everything else can surprise you with a malfunction, but I never heard of a hard opening on one but I guess that can happen too. Since I jump a 230 its probably a bit more forgiving there.
On heading openings aren't a real issue with me but I never roll the nose, don't need to as its simply a method to keep from getting slammed by those other canopies.


humbled1  (C 37241)

Nov 9, 2009, 6:59 PM
Post #52 of 126 (1420 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

dude u titled this thread the Sabre2 sucks!

Don't get all butt-munched and worked up. At 49 jumps you dont know crap about ANY canopy, especially if you didn't pack em.

I am on the opposite end of the spectrum as you, I jump a Saber1...Sabre1 170. I have put over 250 jumps on it, NEVER A HARD OPENING, yet it is a canopy WELL KNOWN for hard openings....
FYI, the only HARD opening I had was on a rental rig with a Safire 189, it was so hard my right side tingled for 2 days. 3 other jumper complained about that same rig over the next week. Are Safire's crap?

Take a step back and think about the fact u don't know much about canopies.....nor do I.

btw, u may be happy right now but god help u if you ever need customer service...might as well try and fly to the moon.


(This post was edited by humbled1 on Nov 9, 2009, 7:00 PM)


humbled1  (C 37241)

Nov 9, 2009, 7:07 PM
Post #53 of 126 (1416 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Wow, why is this so hard to believe? Did you keep jumping a Navigator after AFF until you got your 'A'? If so, sorry must have been real boring. I used Nav 260s to 230s during AFF. After AFF I started using our rental rigs which is recommended at my DZ. Those happen to be either Sabre2's or Spectres. I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.

'The Sabre2 sucks', is just my opinion... some agree with me and some don't. There must be some validity to it or this thread wouldn't have had more than 3 replies.

It's just my opion... and only matters to me???

I HAVE BOUGHT A SAFIRE2 AND I'M EXTREMELY HAPPY!!!

btw, I jumped a navigator till jump 44, I even took a canopy course at jump 27 with a nav 240. What is your point? fyi, I weigh 155lbs without gear....r u gonna tell me I am TOO safe?

You should hang out with the 8eight Guy....2 peas in a pod..... how old r u? 19? 20?

good luck on your journey Wink

just so u know Stud Boy, at your weight and sea level it is suggested you have a minimum of 260 jumps before jumping a 160 canopy, but of course you have mad skillz; u are the last mofo I would take shoelace advice from, much less canopy advice....I guess u think Toyotas are unreliable cars?

c u in the incidents forum!


(This post was edited by humbled1 on Nov 9, 2009, 7:32 PM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Nov 9, 2009, 7:30 PM
Post #54 of 126 (1398 views)
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In reply to:
On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! To promote nose-first (heading setting) inflation, it takes a bit more than just throwing canopy into the wind. Think of how the reserve is packed, and presented to the wind right after the freebag comes off - nose open - nose first. A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Getting acceptable openings on non-square skydiving canopies does not require rolling the nose in any sort of way.

Tucking the nose in the pack job doesn't do anything useful and causes the lines to move towards the outside, possibly causing a line over.

Placing the left and right side nose tapes against their respective sides of the center cell and leaving it open works very well for heading control. Like a BASE or reserve pack job except standing in 6 minutes instead of on the ground in 45.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Nov 9, 2009, 7:31 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 7:33 PM
Post #55 of 126 (1393 views)
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Re: [captain1976] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Interesting thread. Looks like a lot of people with various issues on the Saber2. Hard openings, off heading, need to pack certain ways and be conscious of good body position on every jump. Sounds like a real pain in the ass to me.

I jump a Spectre and never had anything but soft, reliable, consistent and on heading openings on each and every jump regardless of body position or the way its packed. The last thing I want to think about on a jump is how it will open. I know how it will open without any surprises a lot of Saber2 pilots have.

Its also easy to land, and though it may not be a great swooping canopy, I donít do that anyway.

Additionally, I havenít run across any threads here with complaints about Spectres, just the contrary.

That's because the Spectre is probably one of the greatest modern parachute designs.Smile


humbled1  (C 37241)

Nov 9, 2009, 7:47 PM
Post #56 of 126 (1386 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Interesting thread. Looks like a lot of people with various issues on the Saber2. Hard openings, off heading, need to pack certain ways and be conscious of good body position on every jump. Sounds like a real pain in the ass to me.

I jump a Spectre and never had anything but soft, reliable, consistent and on heading openings on each and every jump regardless of body position or the way its packed. The last thing I want to think about on a jump is how it will open. I know how it will open without any surprises a lot of Saber2 pilots have.

Its also easy to land, and though it may not be a great swooping canopy, I donít do that anyway.

Additionally, I havenít run across any threads here with complaints about Spectres, just the contrary.

That's because the Spectre is probably one of the greatest modern parachute designs.Smile

It might be, personally I was not impressed with the Pulse (i had around 180 jumps), but I HATED the Spectre the few jumps I did with it (around 5 jumps starting around jump 45). The difference between me and the OP is I did NOT assume the problem was the CANOPY and not ME. I plan on participating in a CRW camp in 2 weeks so I can appreciate the 7 cell side of things....plus I want to base jump some day, same reason packing my own shit is a big deal for me lately


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 7:57 PM
Post #57 of 126 (1380 views)
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Re: [humbled1] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Wow, why is this so hard to believe? Did you keep jumping a Navigator after AFF until you got your 'A'? If so, sorry must have been real boring. I used Nav 260s to 230s during AFF. After AFF I started using our rental rigs which is recommended at my DZ. Those happen to be either Sabre2's or Spectres. I weigh 165 and have down sized to a 170 and just bought a 159. Again doesn't seem too fast to me.

'The Sabre2 sucks', is just my opinion... some agree with me and some don't. There must be some validity to it or this thread wouldn't have had more than 3 replies.

It's just my opion... and only matters to me???

I HAVE BOUGHT A SAFIRE2 AND I'M EXTREMELY HAPPY!!!

btw, I jumped a navigator till jump 44, I even took a canopy course at jump 27 with a nav 240. What is your point? fyi, I weigh 155lbs without gear....r u gonna tell me I am TOO safe?

You should hang out with the 8eight Guy....2 peas in a pod..... how old r u? 19? 20?

good luck on your journey Wink

just so u know Stud Boy, at your weight and sea level it is suggested you have a minimum of 260 jumps before jumping a 160 canopy, but of course you have mad skillz; u are the last mofo I would take shoelace advice from, much less canopy advice....I guess u think Toyotas are unreliable cars?

c u in the incidents forum!

Yeauza! Calm down. It is just my opinion! So many that disagreed with me seemed to feel the need to discredit me and attack me personally. I simply stated my progression of downsizing, I never once said I was good in any way. I always check with the instructors at my DZ before downsizing and they were the one's that recommended I buy a 159. They are, I hope confident in my ability to handle it, as am I.

As the replies show, I am not the only one that feels it is in someways an inferior canopy. Throw my opinion out the window as you have, but I'm sure their all just doing something wrong too.

I invite anyone looking at getting a new intermediate canopy to read all the replies and form their own opinion. We all sure know yours. Thanks for your creative criticisms of me, I'm sure I can learn from them and it will make me a better jumper.


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 9, 2009, 8:55 PM
Post #58 of 126 (1355 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am more concerned about my openings, especially in larger groups with lower break-offs

How large a group and how low are you opening? Just askin'...


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:24 PM
Post #59 of 126 (1339 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I am more concerned about my openings, especially in larger groups with lower break-offs

How large a group and how low are you opening? Just askin'...

So far 8-way is the largest group I have been in. I think it could still easily or mistakenly put you in a 15 degree track-off angle with another jumper. I would prefer to not make a 90* turn to the person next to me. I feel more comfortable on something other than a Sabre2 when it comes to that. Obviously the more jumpers the less degree of separation will be achieved. That being said I have no plan on jumping with any groups larger than 10 any time soon.

Also, so far all pretty reasonable pull altitudes, usually by 3,500.

Neither have been a real issue yet, and I'm just hoping to keep it that way. And for me it is not jumping a Sabre2.


Couloirman  (A 51997)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:30 PM
Post #60 of 126 (1333 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In reply to:
off heading more often than not

This is skydiving, not BASE jumping, its not a safety issue. You want on heading openings? then open while tracking with a little bit of forward speed. No one can get consistent on headings falling straight down.


Really? It is a safety issue. Having a 180 when skydiving with groups can turn into a problem, fast. An yes people can get consistent on headings while falling straight down. You might want to get a bit more experience on more than one or two types of parachute before making such a sweeping generalization.

YAWN. Skydiving canopies 'can' open on heading somewhat consistently IF you have forward speed, but falling straight down a column of air(packing the canopy the most commonly taught way), with a canopy that has the tail folded around a nose with no specific cell that will be presented to the wind first is not a reliable method of getting on headings no matter what you say/think.

Maybe when I find the time to get 14,000 posts Ill be able to talk very confidently about things that dont happen too, until then, Im going out jumping, see you in 50 years.

and maybe you should figure out a little bit more about my experience level before telling me how many different canopies I have jumped, just a thought. See Pauls response below if I dont have enough posts to make you believe me(because people with low post numbers couldn't possibly know anything about anything, naturally).

In reply to:
[likestojump] the Saber2 sucks!
In Reply To

On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Paul=correct. Diablopilot=not so much.


(This post was edited by Couloirman on Nov 9, 2009, 9:35 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:33 PM
Post #61 of 126 (1325 views)
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Re: [Couloirman] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe when you've experience more than 9000 parachute openings, you'll have a frame of reference.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Nov 9, 2009, 9:34 PM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Nov 9, 2009, 9:52 PM
Post #62 of 126 (1311 views)
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Re: [Couloirman] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
YAWN. Skydiving canopies 'can' open on heading somewhat consistently IF you have forward speed

I get consistent on-heading openings with my Samurai on real clear-and-pulls with belly-to-the wind.

In reply to:
but falling straight down a column of air(packing the canopy the most commonly taught way), with a canopy that has the tail folded around a nose with no specific cell that will be presented to the wind first is not a reliable method of getting on headings no matter what you say/think.

Although I leave the center cell hanging in front of the rest.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:06 PM
Post #63 of 126 (1303 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
How hot does it get at Mile Hi anyway? Are we talking Mile-and-a-half Hi? Higher?

That's something to think about for sure. That 159 will turn itself into a 139 or a 129 right quick. The ground, however, will remain the same hardness all year long. Whatever you do, don't gain any weight or wear a weight belt.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 10:16 PM
Post #64 of 126 (1295 views)
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Re: [davelepka] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How hot does it get at Mile Hi anyway? Are we talking Mile-and-a-half Hi? Higher?

That's something to think about for sure. That 159 will turn itself into a 139 or a 129 right quick. The ground, however, will remain the same hardness all year long. Whatever you do, don't gain any weight or wear a weight belt.

Yeah, Mile-Hi is about 4,900'. You definitely fall faster here and as you said even more so when it's hot. We also get a fair amount of turbulence due to those two things. I will likely have a good 100 more jumps on the 159 before it starts getting hot again. I am comfortable with the thinner air as it is really all I know.

I have also jumped at Skydive Long Island and CSC and the difference in canopy speed was definitely noticeable.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 9, 2009, 10:19 PM
Post #65 of 126 (1293 views)
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Re: [Couloirman] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

> but falling straight down a column of air(packing the canopy the most
>commonly taught way), with a canopy that has the tail folded around a
>nose with no specific cell that will be presented to the wind first is not a
>reliable method of getting on headings no matter what you say/think.

I get solid on heading openings 95% of the time with my Nitro - just falling down a column of air.

>On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded
>ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment
>point ?

A good opening if the pack job is good; otherwise a poor opening.

>A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the
>packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Well, there's your problem right there. Don't do that!


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 9, 2009, 11:29 PM
Post #66 of 126 (1274 views)
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In reply to:
I am comfortable with the thinner air as it is really all I know.

And there is the problem. You donít even know what it is you donít know. You are regurgitating all this crap you have heard other people say with no real understanding of what it means. Attached is some light reading for and an indication of where you are headed.

Sparky
Attachments: Fatalities.docx (19.1 KB)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 9, 2009, 11:55 PM
Post #67 of 126 (1266 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I am comfortable with the thinner air as it is really all I know.

And there is the problem. You donít even know what it is you donít know. You are regurgitating all this crap you have heard other people say with no real understanding of what it means. Attached is some light reading for and an indication of where you are headed.

Sparky

Thanks Sparky,

They are quite vigilant about teaching us as students about our higher altitude, thinner air, hot air and turbulence, and their effects on canopy control.

This article on turbulence and bigger canopies is also a good read (can be found in the safety forms here on dz if I did not copy the link properly. http://www.dropzone.com/...tail_page.cgi?ID=718

I do not take skydiving and safety lightly. I don't plan on swooping my Safire2 159. It is not a hp canopy and would be considered a similar performance canopy as the Sabre2.

If it was totally crazy for me to get the 159 I hope my dz instructors would have advised me against it. They know me and I will listen to them. If I get hurt on it I will let you know so you can tell me, "I told you so."


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 12:20 AM
Post #68 of 126 (1258 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

The following is cut directly from NZ Aerosports. If you don't like or agree with it, please feel free to contact them directly.
-------------------------------------------------------------

The Safire 2 is an all-round, hassle free, mid-range canopy offering the benefits of 9 cell performance, without getting radical or requiring any special attention. It's simple to use, with consistent, reliable openings, easy packing and great landings.

This canopy is a versatile performer; suitable as a first canopy when lightly loaded, and equally useful as a modern mid-range performing wing at heavier wing-loadings.

The result - an impressively balanced all-round wing offering

ē superior opening qualities
ē exceptional glide and range
ē outstanding slow flight stability
ē superior safety
-----------------------------------------------------------
I am happy to receive legitimate advice, and to be corrected when I'm wrong. I want to learn all I can to better my jumping experience. But please save your name calling and personal attacks for the other people who want to "learn" from you.


LongWayToFall  (A 52639)

Nov 10, 2009, 12:54 AM
Post #69 of 126 (1249 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

A friend of mine has a safire2 and he really enjoys it. Glad you found a canopy that is a good fit for you. Please be careful!


dorbie

Nov 10, 2009, 2:08 AM
Post #70 of 126 (1228 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The following is cut directly from NZ Aerosports.

Every manufacturer says this about their canopies.

That's a great canopy and was top of my list until I learned first hand that it can snivel quite bit especially if the lines have some wear. You might find that desirable. Every canopy has strengths & weaknesses.

Find one you like, don't judge by the marketing on a web site.

I don't think you're gonna change your canopy now, but stay safe and take a canopy control course, it is money well spent, and you will get more enjoyment out of your wing.


jakee  (C License)

Nov 10, 2009, 2:42 AM
Post #71 of 126 (1230 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! To promote nose-first (heading setting) inflation, it takes a bit more than just throwing canopy into the wind. Think of how the reserve is packed, and presented to the wind right after the freebag comes off - nose open - nose first. A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Getting acceptable openings on non-square skydiving canopies does not require rolling the nose in any sort of way.

Tucking the nose in the pack job doesn't do anything useful and causes the lines to move towards the outside, possibly causing a line over.

Rolling the nose must be the greatest bit of packing voodoo/ rote learning around.

The amount of posts here complaining about unpredictable openings on snivelly canopies like the Spectre/Saf2 where the OP has been rolling the nose just shows how many people genuinely don't understand what they are trying to achieve with the component parts of their pack jobs.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 10, 2009, 6:36 AM
Post #72 of 126 (1176 views)
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Re: [billvon] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the
>packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Well, there's your problem right there. Don't do that!

wow, we really are running circles, aren't we ?

Please remind me and others what is the most common advice for people suffering from hard openings ? Yop, it's "roll the nose, and push as far into the packjob as possible".
What does that do ?
a) inhibit the heading, as that promotes tail first expansion, instead of nose first inflation
b) causes the linegroups inside the packjob to shift, and further distorts the symmetry
c) prolongs the snivels, which does in fact turn into a softer opening

And who says *I* do that ? Stop ASSuming people, that'll get ya.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 10, 2009, 6:42 AM
Post #73 of 126 (1170 views)
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Re: [captain1976] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I havenít run across any threads here with complaints about Spectres, just the contrary.

Ditto re: Pilots. Just thought I'd mention that.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Nov 10, 2009, 7:12 AM
Post #74 of 126 (1151 views)
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Re: [Couloirman] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
[likestojump] the Saber2 sucks!
In Reply To

On-heading openings ? Seriously ? What do you expect when an S-folded ball of nylon is lifted off your back at high speed by a center attachment point ?! A skydiving main, especially with the nosed rolled and tucked into the packjob is as inhibited as it can be from having an on-heading opening.

Paul=correct. Diablopilot=not so much.

(BTW - different Paul)

On the other hand, I get mostly on heading openings on my Spectre 210 loaded at about 1.4.

They're not usually more than 30 degrees off either way, and are often dead on. To me, that's pretty good opening performance.

I'm certainly still going to a place that I have been looking, as opposed to somewhere behind me. How far off do you allow before you call it "off heading"? If you want to talk about only the dead-on, then it is probably about half.

I pack the nose wide open, and I take care not to roll the tail up much at all. Also, I am anal about keeping the pack job symmetrical, and getting it into the bag straight, which is a whole lot different from what I most often see on the packing floor at the dz. For instance, I see many people almost toss the cocooned canopy to the ground. I don't do that. I have one hand holding the lines and slider in position, while the other arm is stretched out supporting the rest of the pack job, and I gently lower it to the ground with a minimum of disturbance to the package.

Essentially, I am using the same sorts of goals I use when packing a reserve, though for a main, I am a bit more lax. I am a little slower than some of the fastest packers, but I think it is worth it.

So, I think on heading openings are a real possibility, but it takes more careful packing than most of what I commonly see.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Nov 10, 2009, 2:38 PM
Post #75 of 126 (1085 views)
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Re: [davelepka] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How hot does it get at Mile Hi anyway?

95 Fahrenheit.

In reply to:
Are we talking Mile-and-a-half Hi? Higher?

We've measured 8000-9000 foot density altitudes .

In reply to:
That's something to think about for sure. That 159 will turn itself into a 139 or a 129 right quick. The ground, however, will remain the same hardness all year long. Whatever you do, don't gain any weight or wear a weight belt.

Canopies fly up to 2 sizes smaller than they do at sea level.

Brian Germain's statement that canopy size should be increased approximately 10 square feet per 2000 feet of density altitude is consistent with this (IOW, you want 40 square feet more over your head).


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Nov 10, 2009, 2:44 PM)


Will_Evo  (B 32799)

Nov 10, 2009, 3:27 PM
Post #76 of 126 (1184 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yeauza! Calm down. It is just my opinion! So many that disagreed with me seemed to feel the need to discredit me and attack me personally. I simply stated my progression of downsizing, I never once said I was good in any way. I always check with the instructors at my DZ before downsizing and they were the one's that recommended I buy a 159. They are, I hope confident in my ability to handle it, as am I.

As the replies show, I am not the only one that feels it is in someways an inferior canopy. Throw my opinion out the window as you have, but I'm sure their all just doing something wrong too.

I invite anyone looking at getting a new intermediate canopy to read all the replies and form their own opinion. We all sure know yours. Thanks for your creative criticisms of me, I'm sure I can learn from them and it will make me a better jumper.

So you admit to not being good, bus somehow can formulate such a strong opinion on a canopy to say it sucks? Like I said before, you, me, god if hes real, the entire dropzone population know you are full of it, and for once, I agree "You don't know what you don't know". Like I said before, you have 49 jumps, and supposedly 40 of them were used to experiment on a spectre and or sabre2, this also means that in two jumps(if you started experimenting at jump 8), you sold yourself on the safire2. I mean, listen to yourself, Jump 9!? Youve got to be kidding?! Id be willing to bet you were on student gear still, still learning how to flare and properly enter a landing pattern, not experimenting on a new smaller canopy, and getting finicky about its openings.

Like I said before, I had a problem with very off heading openings on my Spectre when I first bought it(jump 30), and even asked the local instructors what the problem could be, I got the "Body position and packing" speech from every one of them, I am going to go with they must all have telepathy, or they just know what they are talking about. Well here I am 60 jumps later, and an off heading opening is a rare occurrence. Coincidence? Hell no. I learned how to pack, practiced, and figured out where in the packing process, off heading opening can be avoided. Also i did two solos in the beginning, flyinf in the pull position the entire jump, perfecting the pull position, and man am I glad, those 4 way jump withs a break off of 4 grand, dont give you much time to end your track and get stable before pull.

Lastly, your opinion on the Sabre2 means nothing if you never packed it. How can you blame the canopy if you have never tried to fix the problem yourself? packers usually do a tremendous job packing canopies, but they do it fast, and if the canopy is a bit to big for the bag, or container, or is new and slippery, or has worn out lines, etc..(tons of things) off heading openings can happen. Did you even think to have the trim checked? How many jumps were on the canopy? Were your leg straps the same length when you landed every jump? Are you sure you were stable in the air? To many questions that cannot be answered by a 49 jump wonder. Im not to far ahead of you in jump numbers, but for some reason, I can bet way ahead in the common sense department. Crazy

-Evo


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 3:48 PM
Post #77 of 126 (1166 views)
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Re: [Will_Evo] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Listen Evo... I really don't care if you believe my progression or not. Feel free to come to my dz and see for yourself. I have safely downsized with the approval of my dz instructors and my own comfort level. Why do you care so much, sorry if you are a bit behind the curve. The fact is I did not have the same opening issues on the Spectre caonopies as I did on the Sabre2 canopies, regardless of packing or body position.

Also, if it takes you even more than 10 rides on two different canopies to tell the differences and make a preference then you are not flying the canopy or are numb to the process. It doesn't take a genius to notice the diferences in handling between two canopies. Don't know why it is so hard for you to believe.


(This post was edited by ridestrong on Nov 10, 2009, 3:55 PM)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 5:42 PM
Post #78 of 126 (1137 views)
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Re: [Will_Evo] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Here you go Evo a scan of my log book just for you. Jump number 10 on a Sabre2 230. This was my second solo after AFF. My first jump #1 was a tandem.

*SEE ATTACHED PHOTO*
Attachments: SCAN0009.JPG (119 KB)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 10, 2009, 5:48 PM
Post #79 of 126 (1132 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

> The fact is I did not have the same opening issues on the Spectre
>caonopies as I did on the Sabre2 canopies, regardless of packing or body
>position.

Spectres are far more forgiving than most canopies when it comes to packing. If someone decides "I can pack a Spectre and get a decent opening, therefore my packing is fine" that can be a bad conclusion.

>Also, if it takes you even more than 10 rides on two different canopies
>to tell the differences and make a preference then you are not flying the
>canopy or are numb to the process.

Or are a canopy pilot who can do more than pull toggles and flare. It takes a long time to really understand a canopy. (Not to say you can't make a few jumps and decide which ones you like better - but the people who are _really_ flying the canopy are the ones who will take their time and learn the differences.)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 5:53 PM
Post #80 of 126 (1130 views)
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Re: [Will_Evo] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is another scan of my log book. Jump #21 on a Spectre 210... Jump #22 on a Spectre 190.

*SEE ATTACHED PHOTO*
Attachments: SCAN0010.JPG (89.2 KB)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 10, 2009, 6:03 PM
Post #81 of 126 (1134 views)
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Re: [ridestrong & Evo] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

If the two of you make it to 1000 jumps in the sport, I hope you remember this thread. You'll be really embarrassed, but it will help temper both of your responses when trying to help low time jumpers who refuse to listen.

Out of curiosity, have either of you received any structured canopy coaching? Have either of you looked into it? Check the sticky in the Canopy Control forum for contact information for a regional canopy mentor.

Good luck to both of you.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 10, 2009, 6:46 PM
Post #82 of 126 (1108 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the scan of your log book. One thing it does show is that you have made 39 jumps in 5 months. That is not enough jumps to be current on any canopy much less a 150.

In reply to:
It doesn't take a genius to notice the diferences in handling between two canopies. Don't know why it is so hard for you to believe.

It is so hard to believe because most of the people talking to you have been there and done that. They know what it takes to understand the flight characteristics of different canopies. And they also know that you lack the hang time to know WTF you are talking about.

Can I be on you ash dive.

Sparky


champu  (D 28302)

Nov 10, 2009, 6:48 PM
Post #83 of 126 (1107 views)
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Re: [Chubba] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hard opening on a Sabre2? Never heard that from anyone before. I get 700-800ft with just pushing the nose back, I remember when I first got my Sabre2 and I was rolling the nose, 1000ft.

Sorry... every time I see the term "1000 ft snivel/opening" tossed around casually I kinda furl my eyebrow a little. This is a 1000 ft snivel/opening (note the slight jolt about a half a second into the video, that's the bag hitting the end of the lines. I gave it a couple seconds before I even look up the first time.)

After a couple seconds of the that nonsense you're not actually being slowed down anymore. Canopies aren't supposed to do that.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 7:30 PM
Post #84 of 126 (1091 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the scan of your log book. One thing it does show is that you have made 39 jumps in 5 months. That is not enough jumps to be current on any canopy much less a 150.

In reply to:
It doesn't take a genius to notice the diferences in handling between two canopies. Don't know why it is so hard for you to believe.

It is so hard to believe because most of the people talking to you have been there and done that. They know what it takes to understand the flight characteristics of different canopies. And they also know that you lack the hang time to know WTF you are talking about.

Can I be on you ash dive.

Sparky

Not sure what your problem with me is... you seem REALLY offended by my post. Had some problems with your Sabre2 maybe? Not giving you any love?

My log book scans were to show the data that Evo asked for. I don't claim to be a jumping machine. Nor do I claim to be a canopy expert. I just think the Sabre2 has shitty openings. And since you seem to be in denial please refer to posts: 10, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18,...... and so on. Wow, other people actually had similar experiences in one way or another.

Sparky's jump history: 2700 jumps in 33 yrs = 80 jumps a year avg, or 40 jumps every 6 months... Hmmmmmm... what was it that you criticized me on with my numbers, see your quote above.

Now that I just got my own gear and don't have to pay for rentals I will average 4-6 jumps per week, weather permitting.

PS- you can be on my ash dive if they let you out of the nursing home...


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 10, 2009, 8:01 PM
Post #85 of 126 (1068 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not sure what your problem with me is...

I'm going to guess that it has something to do with your attitude, which you have despite your enormous lack of knowledge.

But than you bring up this -

Quote:
2700 jumps in 33 yrs = 80 jumps a year avg, or 40 jumps every 6 months... Hmmmmmm... what was it that you criticized me on with my numbers,

- and I've becomed convinced that the problem is that Sparky has an uncanny ability to identify a douchebag.

Without ever meeting you, I can guarantee that Sparky has been jumping longer than you have been alive. It might be hard for you to believe, but the was a world before you came into it.

You have to be able to easily understand that there is a difference between having 40 jumps total in six months, and making 40 jumps every six months for 33 years. You just have to, or you may be legally retarded.


dorbie

Nov 10, 2009, 8:28 PM
Post #86 of 126 (1056 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sparky's jump history: 2700 jumps in 33 yrs = 80 jumps a year avg, or 40 jumps every 6 months... Hmmmmmm... what was it that you criticized me on with my numbers, see your quote above.

Simply astonishing.

In reply to:
Now that I just got my own gear and don't have to pay for rentals I will average 4-6 jumps per week, weather permitting.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. There's a big difference between surviving decades in skydiving and expecting to. The decisions you make on the ground are a part of that.

In reply to:
PS- you can be on my ash dive if they let you out of the nursing home...

Alas the odds and attitude suggest he's not going to be in a nursing home when you bounce.

These guy's are not attacking you personally (well maybe now after your latest assinine post it'll get 'colorful') they're trying to help you. Step back and recognize that.

Best of luck.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 8:34 PM
Post #87 of 126 (1051 views)
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Re: [davelepka] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Please show me one post in this thread where I talk myself up or think I'm the shit. I don't think I've done anything impressive. I'm likely the average skilled skydiver at this stage.

I think I have managed to stay relatively mature given some of the personal attacks on me in this thread.

I believe in safety first, listening to my dz instructors, and having fun.

I have found in life that those who feel the need to belittle others often have greater insecurities within themselves.

I'm really just going to have to ignore any further personal attacks on me as they are without merit and immature.

This has seemed to turn into the "haters" on Josh thread. Maybe I will start that as a new thread so we can keep this one about how the Sabre2 sucks or doesn't suck. It will keep the simple minded people on track with hating me.

Anyone new to this thread please read from the beginning.


dorbie

Nov 10, 2009, 8:53 PM
Post #88 of 126 (1040 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

The issue is not you bumming yourself up, it's what is implied in the statements you make.

I don't think your early canopy 'experimentation' was at all incredible, most people do something like that during their early jumps once they learn to flare and when they're trying to pick a first canopy. It's a silly distraction.

However what you think you've learned from this is subject to ridicule when you make definitive statements. Most students are asking for advice on canopies, not giving it.

Maybe you're staying safe, making statements like that around here just off student status is like a red flag to a bull and conjures up images of others who have gone before, perhaps with more radical downsizing some not, and who have hurt themselves after ignoring advice.


(This post was edited by dorbie on Nov 10, 2009, 9:00 PM)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 9:10 PM
Post #89 of 126 (1025 views)
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Re: [dorbie] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
However what you think you've learned from this is subject to ridicule when you make definitive statements. Most students are asking for advice on canopies, not giving it.

I gave only my opinion, which I realize alone is worthless. The ONLY advice I gave was in post #29 when I said. "I hope any nubies such as myself will read all the replies and if their considering buying a new canopy will at least try a couple different ones before simply ordering a Saber2 because their popular."

I have read some good packing tips from this thread, and others opinions on the Sabre2, Spectre and other canopies. Can we please keep it about that.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 10, 2009, 9:24 PM
Post #90 of 126 (1018 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread is great!

Laugh


skinnay

Nov 10, 2009, 9:29 PM
Post #91 of 126 (1012 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Note to self: stay the fuck away from MileHi.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 10, 2009, 9:36 PM
Post #92 of 126 (1008 views)
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Re: [davelepka] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

- and I've becomed convinced that the problem is that Sparky has an uncanny ability to identify a douchebag.

Sparky is pretty astute, no doubt. Following his advice served me well in the early days....
OP; I've got a Sabre 2 that has never given me issues, ever. Openings are great, even with 10lbs of gear on my head and opening in a full track with lots of nylon between my arms and legs.

Although all canopies seem to have issues of one kind or another, most of the complaints like this relate to the jumper, not the canopy. I had one that just vexed me. I finally had someone shoot video of a deployment. Figured it out in one, it was all me.


ghost47  (D License)

Nov 10, 2009, 9:52 PM
Post #93 of 126 (1002 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The ONLY advice I gave was in post #29 when I said. "I hope any nubies such as myself will read all the replies and if their considering buying a new canopy will at least try a couple different ones before simply ordering a Saber2 because their popular."

There was also post 5 . . .

Quote:
Please people ride some other canopies first, guarantee you will find something you like better than the Saber2.

In any case, I think all the salient points have been made. Me personally, I think the more disturbing thing is not your opinion of Sabre2s (which, as you mention, many people apparently share), it's your wingloading in your environmental conditions at your jump numbers. But if your instructors and the DZO and S&TA have signed off on it, then good luck with it, and I hope it all goes well.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 10:43 PM
Post #94 of 126 (988 views)
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Re: [ghost47] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe there should be requirements regulated by the USPA or other entity before downsizing for beginners. Until one gets their 'C' license etc... May not be a bad idea.


skinnay

Nov 10, 2009, 11:04 PM
Post #95 of 126 (976 views)
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In reply to:
Maybe there should be requirements regulated by the USPA or other entity before downsizing for beginners. Until one gets their 'C' license etc... May not be a bad idea.

Doesn't the SIM recommend a D license for 150's regardless of wingloading? Do you want them to write the rule with your blood?


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 10, 2009, 11:43 PM
Post #96 of 126 (969 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

The reason why I started this thread was because of the number of new jumpers at my dz straight off AFF talking about how they are going to get a Sabre2.

I would like to know if unbiased first canopy buyers would be 'more' or 'less' likely to buy a Sabre2 after reading all the replies in this post.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 11, 2009, 12:11 AM
Post #97 of 126 (961 views)
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Re: [skinnay] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Maybe there should be requirements regulated by the USPA or other entity before downsizing for beginners. Until one gets their 'C' license etc... May not be a bad idea.

Doesn't the SIM recommend a D license for 150's regardless of wingloading? Do you want them to write the rule with your blood?

To jump a 150 The USPA downsizing chart recommends a minimum of 40 jumps for the lowest wing loading on the chart.

http://www.4xtremetime.com/...les/USPADOWNSIZE.pdf


ghost47  (D License)

Nov 11, 2009, 12:38 AM
Post #98 of 126 (947 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To jump a 150 The USPA downsizing chart recommends a minimum of 40 jumps for the lowest wing loading on the chart.
http://www.4xtremetime.com/...les/USPADOWNSIZE.pdf
This is Brian Germain's downsizing chart, I believe (though a slightly different version than the one he currently has up).

You weigh 165. Your exit weight is around 187. You have 40 jumps. According to the chart you should be jumping a 210, or a 182 at most.

THEN, the chart says: "Increase surface area one size (15 - 20 sq ft) for each increment of 2500 feet of altitude." Mile-Hi is about 5000 feet above sea level. So that means add 30 - 40 sq ft.

Meaning, according to the chart, you should be jumping, a 240 to 250, or, at most, a 210 to 220. You are, instead, jumping a 159. Which, according to the chart, does not become potentially appropriate until around 340 jumps.

You are free to ignore the chart, and, as I said, if your instructors and DZO and S&TA have signed off on your choice of canopy size, then I hope all goes well.

One other thing -- as has been mentioned in many other threads, the question is not whether you can safely land a 159 on a straight approach into the wind. The question is whether you can safely land it when the wind shifts and suddenly you're going downwind, or the spot is off and you have only a small space to put the canopy down, or the myriad scenarios that will occur as you continue jumping. It is for those situations that people recommend more conservative canopies.


dorbie

Nov 11, 2009, 1:48 AM
Post #99 of 126 (933 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe there should be requirements regulated by the USPA or other entity before downsizing for beginners. Until one gets their 'C' license etc... May not be a bad idea.

LOL why regulate when the advice is available from experts and you have the freedom to make the right informed choice? Your statement is a bit like a guy playing Russian roulette and just before he pulls the trigger saying maybe there should be a law against this to stop me, as if it's someone else's responsibility. Sorry mate, no rules are required and your statement indicates you're going into this eyes wide open.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Be sure to factor in density altitude.

That's a set of rules for you drawn up by some of the best, feel free to apply them to your own ass if you really want rules.

It always seemed a bit on the conservative side to me but it is the best advice out there with a lot of support.

This thread keeps on giving.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 11, 2009, 1:54 AM
Post #100 of 126 (930 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not sure what your problem with me is... you seem REALLY offended by my post. Had some problems with your Sabre2 maybe? Not giving you any love?

I am way too old to get offended by something on the net. But I am tired of bagging and tagging hot shot young jumpers who get all puffed up about their crazy skills and havenít seen the ball since kick off.
Iíll make you a deal, in 5 years if you are still alive, still in the sport and not waking with a limp, I will get down on my knees and apologize for hurting you sensitivities. My name is Michael Owens; you pick the time and place.

Sparky


dorbie

Nov 11, 2009, 1:58 AM
Post #101 of 126 (2125 views)
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Re: [dorbie] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ahh, I jumped the gun; you've seen it (or the USPA proposal lifted from it), so your call for rules is merely to compel you to stay within recommendations you're not adhering to now.

You have the table and are free to comply with its recommendations whenever you see fit.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 11, 2009, 2:52 AM
Post #102 of 126 (2114 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

You're at Mile Hi? Go talk to Dan Raymond. He happens to know a thing or two about canopies and flying them in general. He would be able to help you. I'd ditch the attitude, though. He's already proven he knows what he is doing under canopy.


Blink  (C 3275)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:10 AM
Post #103 of 126 (2081 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

You wanted to know what you said that has turned the thread into this "intervention."

Quote:
I don't think one would need to do more than 20 jumps on a canopy to decide wether or not they like it, and I happen to not like the Sabre2.

Also, if it takes you even more than 10 rides on two different canopies to tell the differences and make a preference then you are not flying the canopy or are numb to the process.

You canít learn how a canopy flies in 20 jumps, and before you EVER downsize, itís a good idea to learn how to fly your canopy (granted, from a 280 to a 210 or so, not sure a big deal, this is where the learning takes place). Sure, you can learn ďYup, it does open, and look at that, it descends, and even has flare!Ē, but unless youíre doing full altitude hop and pops and working with coaches, thatís the limitation.

Quote:
So far 8-way is the largest group I have been in. I think it could still easily or mistakenly put you in a 15 degree track-off angle with another jumper. I would prefer to not make a 90* turn to the person next to me. I feel more comfortable on something other than a Sabre2 when it comes to that. Obviously the more jumpers the less degree of separation will be achieved.


Hmm, another ignorant quote. I didnít know the amount of people in the sky affected your ability to track, specifically decreasing it, learn something new everyday. Learn to track hard and far, wonít have to worry about a 90* off heading opening.

Quote:
I will likely have a good 100 more jumps on the 159 before it starts getting hot again. I am comfortable with the thinner air as it is really all I know.

Now that I just got my own gear and don't have to pay for rentals I will average 4-6 jumps per week, weather permitting.

Two instances where youíre planning on doing something. Congratulations, you PLAN on doing some jumps, look at the jumps you have NOW, not what you PLAN on doing.

Quote:
To jump a 150 The USPA downsizing chart recommends a minimum of 40 jumps for the lowest wing loading on the chart.

http://www.4xtremetime.com/...les/USPADOWNSIZE.pdf

As it was pointed you, you bravely posted this canopy recommendation chart, might as well remove the foot from your mouth, and then shoot it. Assuming youíre competent, you should be able to read the entire document, and realize how far off you are.

Quote:
I do not take skydiving and safety lightly. I don't plan on swooping my Safire2 159. It is not a hp canopy and would be considered a similar performance canopy as the Sabre2.

Isnít there a word for that attitude? Hypocrit? You have contradicted yourself far too much with that statement. See quote above this one, re: downsizing chart. Also, a very key phrase was used here ďI donít plan on swoopingÖĒ Search the forums and see how often that is. Iím sure youíre just going to do straight in approaches aswell?

Now, on topic, claiming the Sabre2 sucks, is way too harsh, and is a main reason why the bashing starts. You repeatedly say it sucks, stinks, and is a shitty canopy. A better topic title would have been ďSabre2, not for me!Ē Also, you could have posted this in the gear review, although with the limited experience the review would have been very short and bland.
I understand it has some characteristics you donít like and thus, donít want to jump it. Mine has heading issues, but it so worth it to get to fly it, someday youíll understand. Many people agree with the issues raised, well, atleast the closed endcells and wonky openings, but apparently they feel the way I do, that itís worth it. Also, had you done your research PD blatantly admits that at low wingloadings, the Sabre2 has a tendency to have close endcells, pump the brakes and the nightmare is over.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:46 AM
Post #104 of 126 (2069 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Not sure what your problem with me is... you seem REALLY offended by my post. Had some problems with your Sabre2 maybe? Not giving you any love?

I am way too old to get offended by something on the net. But I am tired of bagging and tagging hot shot young jumpers who get all puffed up about their crazy skills and havenít seen the ball since kick off.
Iíll make you a deal, in 5 years if you are still alive, still in the sport and not waking with a limp, I will get down on my knees and apologize for hurting you sensitivities. My name is Michael Owens; you pick the time and place.

Sparky

you took some shots at me, and I took some shots back... No hard feelings. Cheers.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:49 AM
Post #105 of 126 (2063 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're at Mile Hi? Go talk to Dan Raymond. He happens to know a thing or two about canopies and flying them in general. He would be able to help you. I'd ditch the attitude, though. He's already proven he knows what he is doing under canopy.

The 2008 & 9 US National Swooping Champion is also at my dz. We have some good resources here and I will go to them for their advice.


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Nov 11, 2009, 7:27 AM
Post #106 of 126 (2051 views)
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Re: [Blink] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's become obvious that there are some who have joined this thread solely to express their "opinion" about me and not the Saber2.

I can't even post a chart (that someone posted before me) without taking crap for it. I never said I was in line with the chart. I hadn't even seen it before yesterday. I have downsized at the recommendations and approval of my piers and dz instructors.

I realize I set the tone by titling the post as I did. I did not intend on offending anyone or attacking anyone personally. To anyone who took it this way I am sorry.

I don't think my opinion on the Sabre2 holds any water, but I would not say the same about some of those who agreed about the Sabre2's openings.

I Officially concede ALL my points and opinions to this point to be null and void.

The fact remains that there are still some good arguments both for and against the Sabre2 in the first half of this thread. I think someone considering buying a new canopy can take what they will from this and form an opinion.

When the sharks smell blood they attack... the bottom feeders then show up and nitpick for scraps.

I will leave the remainder of this thread to the sharks to debate the canopy should they so chose... The bottom feeders who simply came here to join in the negativity can stick around and continue to bash me as I'm sure it makes you feel better about yourselves.

I can take advice and criticisms from the sharks, but the bottom feeders can suck it...

PS- if you find yourself attacking me from anything I just said in this single post you are most likely one of the bottom feeders.

Thanks, Josh


Will_Evo  (B 32799)

Nov 11, 2009, 8:16 AM
Post #107 of 126 (2030 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your absolutely ridiculous. I came in here, with hard and definitive words because you ARE in this sport, what I didn't want to believe existed. I see on these forums a ton of times things I do no necessarily agree with, and sometimes dont understand why are even a issue, and I never understood why the micromanaging happens so much in this sport. But now I do. Its people with big attitudes, and big heads that think they know what they don't and end up doing something stupid.

I attacked you, because neither you nor me, know how to fly a canopy proficiently, and this includes being able to say so blatantly that one sucks. In order to say a canopy sucks, you gotta know what your doing under it, and I gotta say, at 49 and 90 jumps we have no clue. Basically, your making the rest of us new guys with a head on our shoulders, look bad, and add to the micromanaging that already exists in the sport. You got attacked, because you made some bold statements that implied you think your the shit.

I recommend taking a canopy course, I enjoyed mine. Good luckUnimpressed

-Evo


champu  (D 28302)

Nov 11, 2009, 1:01 PM
Post #108 of 126 (1966 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

The industry standard, well-known, indisputable, undying, and ubiquitously operative formula for the number of jumps you must make on a canopy before you can have a meaningful opinion as to whether it's a good canopy or not is as follows.

jumps on canopy = 1 + 99 * exp(your total jumps / -1500)


RanHam  (A License)

Nov 11, 2009, 4:31 PM
Post #109 of 126 (1911 views)
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Re: [champu] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I just got my A license and bought my own gear. I bought a Sabre2 170, I have 3 jumps on it. It has 300-400 jumps on it and looks brand new. The first two were packed by my rigger and openings were perfect (soft, straight) the last jump I packed it and I struggled a bit, not use to the zero p (I packed a student manta since my 7th jump with no problem) Opening was hard and threw me side ways a bit. When it first deployed I thought it was a malfunction thats how hard it threw me. But it completely inflated and was fine. I know 100% that that was caused by my pack job.


BrianM  (D 661)

Nov 11, 2009, 4:35 PM
Post #110 of 126 (1904 views)
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Re: [champu] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The industry standard, well-known, indisputable, undying, and ubiquitously operative formula for the number of jumps you must make on a canopy before you can have a meaningful opinion as to whether it's a good canopy or not is as follows.

jumps on canopy = 1 + 99 * exp(your total jumps / -1500)
Attachments: Jumps_Required.png (30.1 KB)


BadNinja  (A 99999)

Nov 11, 2009, 5:38 PM
Post #111 of 126 (1874 views)
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Re: [champu & BrianM] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The industry standard, well-known, indisputable, undying, and ubiquitously operative formula for the number of jumps you must make on a canopy before you can have a meaningful opinion as to whether it's a good canopy or not is as follows.

jumps on canopy = 1 + 99 * exp(your total jumps / -1500)

What a couple of nerds. Tongue


(This post was edited by BadNinja on Nov 11, 2009, 5:38 PM)


champu  (D 28302)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:02 PM
Post #112 of 126 (1856 views)
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Re: [BadNinja] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What a couple of nerds. Tongue

Who's the bigger nerd really? The guy pulling exponential decay functions out of his ass or the guy using gnuplot?


BadNinja  (A 99999)

Nov 11, 2009, 6:11 PM
Post #113 of 126 (1843 views)
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Re: [champu] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What a couple of nerds. Tongue

Who's the bigger nerd really? The guy pulling exponential decay functions out of his ass or the guy using gnuplot?

Tough call....


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 11, 2009, 7:25 PM
Post #114 of 126 (1809 views)
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Re: [BrianM] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey! I was truncated! No fair.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 11, 2009, 8:29 PM
Post #115 of 126 (1789 views)
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Re: [billvon] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, my post saying how great this thread was got deleted, admittedly because there was no content. Laugh I do have relevant experience (limited as it may be) but it seemed from the tone of the thread that posting my experience would have been a waste of time. Now, I do aspire to be a "bottom feeder" so here's my experience:

Sabre 2 190: ~50 jumps / openings no problem / 2nd canopy off student Navigators / .9:1
Sabre 2 170: ~50 jumps / closed end cells, off heading & hunting i.e. shitty openings / 3rd canopy / 1.1:1
Sabre 2 150: ~100+ jumps / slight end cell closure, off headings somewhat (probably me) i.e. good openings / 5th canopy / 1.23:1

Based on the awesome chart, I am qualified to comment on at least the 150. It's a great canopy. Files really well, the end cells are a bit closed but nowhere near as bad as my 170 was and I have off headings which I honestly believe are me.

My 4th canopy was a Safire 2 169. It was night & day compared to the Sabre 2 170, I loved the Safire 2. Still had off headings & (usually uneven) end cell closure but I think that was me too. Overall, the canopy was better behaved on opening.

Having spoken to a lot of people about the Sabre 2, I've been consistently been told that wing loading, differences in canopies and how recently the canopy was made make a big difference. For example I know that my 150 has extra webbing or something sewn onto the leading edge of the center 3 ribs whereas my 170 did not (IIRC).

Anyway, this thread is still hilarious. Laugh


BrianM  (D 661)

Nov 11, 2009, 11:11 PM
Post #116 of 126 (1761 views)
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Re: [champu] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What a couple of nerds. Tongue

Who's the bigger nerd really? The guy pulling exponential decay functions out of his ass or the guy using gnuplot?

Well, of course, the bigger nerd is - wait, are we arguing over who is the bigger nerd, or who isn't?


Cloudi  (C 35301)

Nov 12, 2009, 11:29 AM
Post #117 of 126 (1683 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The reason why I started this thread was because of the number of new jumpers at my dz straight off AFF talking about how they are going to get a Sabre2.

No, the reason you started this thread was to stir shit and you've got your wish.

Instead of scanning your logbook, I think the better solution would be to post a video of you packing your parachute (any modern design will do) then getting out of the plane with it and deploying it. That would be much more telling, I guarantee.

IF you reach 1000 jumps, and we all hope that you do, maybe you'll have the good fortune to meet some of these people who you think are "attacking" you and share some stories and a few beers. Your ears will be open and your mouth will be shut and you guys can all laugh about what a cocky, deaf, loudmouth you used to be at 49 jumps.


Chubba  (A 10160)

Nov 13, 2009, 4:49 AM
Post #118 of 126 (1613 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's become obvious that there are some who have joined this thread solely to express their "opinion" about me and not the Saber2.

EDIT: LOL opps.

That was a big rant at the wrong person.


(This post was edited by Chubba on Nov 13, 2009, 4:52 AM)


ChrisL  (C 35323)

Nov 13, 2009, 8:42 AM
Post #119 of 126 (1570 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Re the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I speak from some experience, here. More than 65 types of parachutes flown, and more than 200 if you count different sizes in those types.

The Sabre 2 suffers from inconsistent openings. The Safire 1 had a very anemic flare. The Pilot needs a full control stroke to land well, where the Sabre 2 flares like many other PD products, with the "meat" of the flare tin the top two thirds of the control stroke.

I'm not Mr. Experience, but I agree with this totally.
I had a Sabre2 210 and a Sabre2 190.
Both of them opened off heading 85% of the time. Sometimes WAY off heading.
I switched to a Pilot 188 and the problem went away immediately, so its not likely it was a body position issue.

Both Sabre2's flew and landed beautifully, but the openings were always all over the place.


(This post was edited by ChrisL on Nov 13, 2009, 8:43 AM)


Lucky123  (B 32658)

Nov 13, 2009, 9:50 AM
Post #120 of 126 (1548 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Getting close to 100 jumps on my Sabre2 170 and I have zero complaints! Angelic


(This post was edited by Lucky123 on Nov 13, 2009, 9:51 AM)


Tolgak  (B 32833)

Nov 13, 2009, 10:38 AM
Post #121 of 126 (1527 views)
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Re: [Lucky123] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

My club has a Sabre2 190 that I use when our larger rigs are not available. Even with the quite high wing loading I have using it, the only issue I have is a slight turn immediately after opening. It's corrected by shifting my weight. I have had no issues with off-heading openings, no issues with stability. It even flares better than our Spectre 210. It is the favored canopy of many of the club members.

I don't have much experience, but it is canopy I'm considering buying when the money comes.


champu  (D 28302)

Nov 16, 2009, 3:23 PM
Post #122 of 126 (1381 views)
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Re: [BrianM] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What a couple of nerds. Tongue
Who's the bigger nerd really? The guy pulling exponential decay functions out of his ass or the guy using gnuplot?

Well, of course, the bigger nerd is - wait, are we arguing over who is the bigger nerd, or who isn't?

Based on the principle of excluded middle, we're arguing both.


koppel  (F License)

Nov 19, 2009, 3:38 AM
Post #123 of 126 (1250 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I also cannot tell you why some guys like blondes and some other guys like redheads.

there are people that like women other than a redhead. Fools!!!


sagan  (D 29467)

Nov 24, 2009, 8:53 AM
Post #124 of 126 (1104 views)
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Re: [koppel] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The openings are what I would call medium, I wish it opened a bit faster actually. My old canopy would open in about 300-400ft (PD 9 cell) this saber is about 500ft.

I thought this was the funniest part of the thread... Try jumping a Safire2, XF2, Katana etc and snivel a 1000ft when it's packed with a rolled nose.

500ft is a pretty standard and "quick" opening given most current offerings on the market.


jakee  (C License)

Nov 24, 2009, 9:06 AM
Post #125 of 126 (1093 views)
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Re: [sagan] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I thought this was the funniest part of the thread... Try jumping a Safire2, XF2, Katana etc and snivel a 1000ft when it's packed with a rolled nose.

What kind of numpty would roll the nose on any of those canopies?


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Nov 24, 2009, 2:34 PM
Post #126 of 126 (412 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] the Saber2 sucks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me throw in a perspective that was interesting and hasn't been mentioned often...

I go to many events that Aerodyne attends. I'm still holding off buying an Aerodyne for a while until probably mid next year. (The World Team canopy catches my attention, need that 500-way invite first) In the meantime, I've been repeatedly demoing a Pilot 140 and 150 -- I must have jumped one of those a few dozen times over last two years alone! Probably 5+ different Pilot 140's/150's in varoius states of wear and tear.

Various Pilot 140 and 150's
- Opened ultra-soft and other times medium-hard (mostly packing)
- Opened on-heading and off-heading (mostly packing)
- Landed much nicer than my Sabre 170 (great new lines on a new canopy)
- Landed much worse than my Sabre 170 (it was probably brake lines that was too long for me to have a good flare range)
- Landed more slowly than my Sabre 170 (maybe line trim, and/or new 140 versus my older 170)
- Landed faster than my Sabre 170 (maybe line trim, and/or old 140 versus my older 170)

The difference appears to be chalked up to a lot of differences like lineset wear and tear (demos with new and old lines), number of jumps the demo had, flaring technique, packing technique, whether it was in my rig or a different rig, whether I landed it normally or double-front-risered it in.

Bottom line....
The very same parachute is a totally different beast under different conditions and states. Don't judge a parachute just by a single assembly...


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Nov 24, 2009, 3:06 PM)



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