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Skyhook ?

 

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beowulf  (C License)

Oct 1, 2009, 2:56 PM
Post #76 of 130 (1497 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

The skyhook wasn't a problem in your situation. If you had a plain old RSL you would most likely have had the same situation.

The skyhook didn't actually pull your reserve like it was designed to do. It reverted to RSL mode, as it was apparently designed to do.

The only problem you actually had was having to deploy your reserve on your back.


(This post was edited by beowulf on Oct 1, 2009, 2:58 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Oct 1, 2009, 3:07 PM
Post #77 of 130 (1485 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess you didn't read "You should understand how the system works and what its limitations are." Tongue

I understand you're now suddenly opposed to RSLs because you got linetwists on your reserve. Not sure why you would specifically not recommend the skyhook though. Did anybody figure out why yours didn't work properly (but still worked as well as a regular RSL)?

You should know how the gear works that you are jumping. But even if you don't, how does having a skyhook change your skydive? Can you name some cons of the skyhook?

I highly recommend reviewing incident reports from the last few years. Compare the number of low cutaways (where an RSL/skyhook could have made a difference) and the number of deaths due to reserve linetwists. You're welcome to your own gear choices and opinions, but please base them on facts.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Oct 1, 2009, 3:10 PM)


hookitt  (D License)

Oct 1, 2009, 3:48 PM
Post #78 of 130 (1467 views)
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Re: [beowulf] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The skyhook didn't actually pull your reserve like it was designed to do. It reverted to RSL mode, as it was apparently designed to do.

But why did it use the design? It's a common cutaway scenario. Spiraling mains place the body inline with the main so it should have yanked the freebag out just fine.


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Oct 1, 2009, 3:56 PM
Post #79 of 130 (1462 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The complexity it adds is mainly for the rigger to worry about.

If you don't know how your gear works. You have no business jumping it. For most cases, your rigger isn't the one who is jumping it.


pilotdave  (D License)

Oct 1, 2009, 4:08 PM
Post #80 of 130 (1456 views)
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Re: [Beatnik] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

If everybody knew as much about their gear as their rigger, we wouldn't need riggers. The skyhook adds complexity to packing the reserve, not to operating rig.

Dave


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 1, 2009, 4:13 PM
Post #81 of 130 (1467 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

>well for me it is a Cessna door handle problem. It's the responsibility of
>the airplane owner to make sure the jump plane is fit for skydiving.

Absolutely. And malfunctions are mainly a packer's problem; it's their responsibility to make sure the main is not packed so sloppily that it malfunctions. It's still a good idea to have a reserve.

Most fatalities in this sport are caused by several mistakes/screwups in a row. Eliminating as many as possible, and being able to deal with the rest, is the key.

>Any rig could have been caught by this door handle like an exposed 3 ring cable metal housing . . .

Right. But only a Skyhook might cut away one of the main risers if the RSL was pulled enough, which in this case would have been fatal.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 1, 2009, 4:14 PM
Post #82 of 130 (1466 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

>If everybody knew as much about their gear as their rigger, we wouldn't need riggers.

Sure we would. You can know more than your rigger about your gear, and it's still not legal to jump your rig unless he repacks it for you.


beowulf  (C License)

Oct 1, 2009, 4:19 PM
Post #83 of 130 (1457 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The skyhook didn't actually pull your reserve like it was designed to do. It reverted to RSL mode, as it was apparently designed to do.

But why did it use the design? It's a common cutaway scenario. Spiraling mains place the body inline with the main so it should have yanked the freebag out just fine.


It's really hard to tell what exactly is going on by just looking at the video. But from what I could tell it looks like he is dearched and his body wasn't inline with the main. That's just my observations.

Like I said in an earlier post I had a similar malfunction and cut away with a Skyhook installed on my rig and I had a much different result.


irishrigger  (D 297)

Oct 1, 2009, 4:21 PM
Post #84 of 130 (1457 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If everybody knew as much about their gear as their rigger, we wouldn't need riggers. The skyhook adds complexity to packing the reserve, not to operating rig.

Dave

i have to say that i dont find it one bit complex to pack a reserve with skyhook,i think it is straight forward and easy,even if you have to read the manual.it is extremly simple in my eyes.however then again,you be amazed what some riggers can do.CrazyUnsurePirate

rodger


irishrigger  (D 297)

Oct 1, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #85 of 130 (1449 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No worries, I missed the possibility in my initial examination of the SkyHook System it's self, however I still think it's a great addition to tandem skydiving.

I simply make the point that it adds a large amount of complexity to the system and it must alter the way one skydives if they choose to use one.

actually, diablopilot, in that case that you described,with the weight of the reserve bag pulling on the cutaway cable,could that mean that if a person has a total malfunction,that it also would cutaway the left riser?would that be the same scenario?
i did a few unofficial drop tests after the incident here,we have over 30 rigs here with skyhook. i wanted to have a closer look,if i could recreate an unintensional cutaway.and i never once suceeded.the skyhook always disconnected before it released the left riser.
which leads me to believe that something else happend on that fatal jump that we dont know about.

rodger


irishrigger  (D 297)

Oct 1, 2009, 4:53 PM
Post #86 of 130 (1442 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Did anybody figure out why yours didn't work properly?


we had a simular situation here couple months ago,what i found when i got the free bag back,was that the seal tread that is supposed to keep the skyhook lanyard secure attached was very loose,and the landyard was able to slip off with out breaking the seal thread,so thats a possible scenario.

rodger


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Oct 1, 2009, 5:22 PM
Post #87 of 130 (1430 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If everybody knew as much about their gear as their rigger, we wouldn't need riggers.

I don't agree with this at. There are a lot of people that know more than their riggers and knowing the gear is not the only function of a rigger.

Whether it adds complexity of using it or not to me is not relevant. If you are going use and rely something to help safe your life, you should know how it works.


hookitt  (D License)

Oct 1, 2009, 5:26 PM
Post #88 of 130 (1430 views)
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Re: [beowulf] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I should say that my question isn't for my own knowledge. That spin wasn't that radical nor was his position so out of whack that it should fail.

The way I'm reading certain posts, in so many words, they state that it failed ... by design. Crazy.

Here's where my comment was leading. If it was set up correctly, I see no reason it should not have worked properly.


hookitt  (D License)

Oct 1, 2009, 5:30 PM
Post #89 of 130 (1421 views)
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Re: [Beatnik] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

If you don't know how your gear works. You have no business jumping it. For most cases, your rigger isn't the one who is jumping it.

There goes a huge portion of the skydiving population. That includes people you jump with regularly.

Not saying I don't agree. That's simply the truth.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 1, 2009, 6:29 PM
Post #90 of 130 (1397 views)
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Re: [beowulf] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The skyhook wasn't a problem in your situation. If you had a plain old RSL you would most likely have had the same situation.

The skyhook didn't actually pull your reserve like it was designed to do. It reverted to RSL mode, as it was apparently designed to do.

The only problem you actually had was having to deploy your reserve on your back.

You are100%correct and thats why I dont jump a RSL anymore.Wink


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 1, 2009, 6:40 PM
Post #91 of 130 (1392 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


You should know how the gear works that you are jumping. But even if you don't, how does having a skyhook change your skydive? Can you name some cons of the skyhook?


Dave

I really don't anything against the skyhook per say. Just a RSL. Since the skyhook is one kind of rsl is the only reason I don't like it. If that makes any sence to you.

Cons of a rsl. Having to deploy my reserve on my back with my head low for startersWink
Having my main lines snag on my camera and having to worry about disconnecting the rsl before cutting away is another.
The skyhook is a great invention and design. It improved the RSL system dramatically.

I just dont like jumping a RSL after my experience


In reply to:
You're welcome to your own gear choices and opinions, but please base them on facts.

Dave


LOL I am basing them on facts... Did you watch the video Dave. No more RSL for me. Ill take my chancesWink


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Oct 1, 2009, 6:46 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Oct 1, 2009, 6:51 PM
Post #92 of 130 (1379 views)
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Re: [Beatnik] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you are going use and rely something to help safe your life, you should know how it works.

Which is basically what I said: "You should understand how the system works and what its limitations are."

But I was responding to diablopilot's comment: "I simply make the point that it adds a large amount of complexity to the system and it must alter the way one skydives if they choose to use one."

It is no more complex to jump a rig equipped with a skyhook than it is to jump a rig equipped with any RSL. Packing the reserve may be a different story. It may not be rocket science, but diablopilot believes the complexity is a major con of the system.

You don't need to spend a week with Dave DeWolf before you buy a Vector 3 or Javelin. You don't need to understand the closing order of the reserve container before you can take it up for a jump. Understanding what the colins lanyard does (and doesn't do) is important. Understanding the pros and cons of an RSL is important. Understanding the difference between an RSL and a skyhook is even more important. But understanding your gear to the same level as your rigger? GREAT! But also not realistic on day 1. You CAN (and most of us DO) jump gear that we don't know every detail about. You don't need a PhD on the Vector 3 (it rhymes!) to jump one. We learn about our gear over time.

Dave


sfgroschwitz  (D 30531)

Oct 1, 2009, 7:16 PM
Post #93 of 130 (1364 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Dave I would have to strongly disagree with your statement. As in a earlier post I show clearly that the skyhook was not the best thing in my situation.

Hm. Didn't we conclude that in your case the skyhook didn't cause the line twist? If anything, your case would be an argument against not arching when cutting away using an RSL, or an RSL in general, but not at all specifically against a skyhook. Actually, it seems the skyhook did exactly what it was supposed to do, which is disable itself if there is more pull on the pilot chute.

Anyway... I just got a rig with a skyhook, after studying how it works (including the tandem incident) and concluding that in my case it offers far more advantage than possible disadvantage. I discussed it with riggers and jumpers I trust. And I have seen a few jumpers who had very strong opinions against any and all RSLs (the very manly "I want to get stable before I pull the reserve and don't need some cord to do it for me" crowd) see a skyhook in action change their minds and get one for themselves.

So yes, absolutely know your gear and study how it works, because just as that will help you use your gear right and deal with the 'what if's, it will also help you cut through people's opinions. And we all know it's skydiving, where everyone has one, even though mine is the only one that's ultimately right and perfectly reasoned ;)


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 1, 2009, 7:18 PM
Post #94 of 130 (1361 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok my understanding of both systems.

RSL uses the riser to pull your reserve pin.

Skyhook uses your main as a pilot chute for your reserve.

I don't see how the skyhook is a complex system.

Form what my rigger explained to me is that what ever catches more air will inflate the reserve. (pilot chute or the main)

Thats why in my case it looks like the lanyard was connected at first then it released. Idk if thats true or not but thats what I was told.

In any event the skyhook in not that complex. Its that people just don't educate themselves . I am included in that statement until my cutaway


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 1, 2009, 7:22 PM
Post #95 of 130 (1351 views)
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Re: [sfgroschwitz] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Dave I would have to strongly disagree with your statement. As in a earlier post I show clearly that the skyhook was not the best thing in my situation.

Hm. Didn't we conclude that in your case the skyhook didn't cause the line twist? If anything, your case would be an argument against not arching when cutting away using an RSL, or an RSL in general, but not at all specifically against a skyhook. Actually, it seems the skyhook did exactly what it was supposed to do, which is disable itself if there is more pull on the pilot chute.

)

ummm I have stated that its not the skyhook that i dont like .... Its a RSL in general Crazy

Im glad you got one and are not part of the crowd....

Ok i said my piece. Its all good and you are right. The only discussion anyone should make is what best for them.

Piece


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Oct 1, 2009, 7:28 PM)


sfgroschwitz  (D 30531)

Oct 1, 2009, 7:57 PM
Post #96 of 130 (1335 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude, sorry if this came across as rude - first paragraph was addressed to you, second just a ramble, third to the OP. And I missed that you made the distinction between an RSL and the skyhook earlier, I only responded to the last post...

Soo...peace it is.


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 1, 2009, 8:20 PM
Post #97 of 130 (1332 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But I was responding to diablopilot's comment: "I simply make the point that it adds a large amount of complexity to the system and it must alter the way one skydives if they choose to use one."

It is no more complex to jump a rig equipped with a skyhook than it is to jump a rig equipped with any RSL. Packing the reserve may be a different story. It may not be rocket science, but diablopilot believes the complexity is a major con of the system.

It may be no more complex to operate on a jump, but that does not mean it is not a more complex system, with more opportunities for failure. And my argument, is that no matter how much testing is done, a more complex system can have more risk of failure to operate as intended, or to be constructed or assembled incorrectly.

This said, I think it is a fabulous, however misunderstood, and sometimes misrepresented system.


USPA  (D 81812)

Oct 2, 2009, 12:26 AM
Post #98 of 130 (1304 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Ozzy,

If your honest to yourself, would it have made any difference in your case?

You cutaway without arching and immediately pulled your reserve yourself.

Also in your case the skyhook functioned as a normal RSL, instead of a proper skyhook.

edited to add:
I missed an entire page of posts, before I made this reply.


(This post was edited by USPA on Oct 2, 2009, 12:37 AM)


hookitt  (D License)

Oct 2, 2009, 9:28 AM
Post #99 of 130 (1237 views)
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Re: [USPA] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Ozzy,

If your honest to yourself, would it have made any difference in your case?

You cutaway without arching and immediately pulled your reserve yourself.

Also in your case the skyhook functioned as a normal RSL, instead of a proper skyhook.

I'm not answering for ozzy, but this has been my experience with spinners pretty much identical to his. I do not have an RSL. It tossed me feet first and I 1/2 barrel rolled and pulled. It took less than 1 second to be on my belly (stable as far as the parachute is concerned) with the ripcord pulled and me still falling belly toward earth.

There is not enough wind to make the body right itself quickly by arching alone. After canopy release, it's all momentum and kinisthectic ability.

If you have an RSL, then arch hard. (this is one time when saying arch hard is appropriate). You may not go belly to earth if you're on your back but your body will resist flipping backward a bit more.

All that may seem obvious but since it's being discussed, those are some of my thoughts on it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 2, 2009, 10:23 AM
Post #100 of 130 (1212 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Skyhook ? [In reply to] Can't Post

>RSL uses the riser to pull your reserve pin.
>Skyhook uses your main as a pilot chute for your reserve.
>I don't see how the skyhook is a complex system.

Because:

1) there are more parts to the system.

2) the skyhook also cuts away one riser as it activates. RSL's don't.

3) the skyhook must engage under certain circumstances and disengage under others. That is a much more complex function than an RSL which simply remains engaged under all conditions.

4) packing it requires more steps, more materials and more attention to placement of parts than an RSL does.


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