I do always think its a shame that building ACME style ramps, contraptions, landing gear, additional support, wings, protection plates etc. is still concidered a wingsuit landing. Many of these methods only use the wingsuit to aim, and could theoreticly land a normal skydiver at terminal speeds as well. They dont use the wingsuit as a landing device, like we use a canopy. Regardless of underlying terrain.
Id be more interested in a real landing. One without ramps, catapults, hang-glider setups or other silly stuff you'd expect in a roadrunner episode..
As to landing on inclined surfaces..Why repeat what you've already done... I dont see why that tiny bit of canopy that didnt slow you down 'invalidates' it as a wingsuit landing. James B deserves that prize..
But sure...its an awesome project...ACME waterslide or not..
I DO believe the landing using a ramp/slide that jeb is planning is an awesome and awe inspiring stunt, and greatly respect him for working towards that goal.
But do believe his ramp also allows for the same stunt in tracking, or even normal terminal freefall. The ramp is the thing taking out the speed, and altering the angle of the human body relative to the ground. Not the actual wingsuit itself. Its only an aid in aiming. Its not an angled landing terrain. Its a landing terrain designed to take all the flaring/breaking of speed and stopping completely out of the arena of the wingsuit itself, and turns it into a tool helping you land safely. Like a parachute. Only 100.000 times more dangerous, skilled and costly to pull off. And a million times cooler. But still, something else than a 'pure' landing.
Seeing people pull of positive flares, I do believe its in the realm of 'survivable by accident' but really hard to flare, and land as a skilled and perfected stunt with the use of a wingsuit and flat surface alone.
Like J said, in this case the wingsuit will only be a small part of the equation! But it will still be awesome to watch! Though if something goes wrong it will be a very public death, broadcast in HD, from a dozen angles!
But why bother using a ramp at all? We've all seen how slow the Tonysuits are upon entering the infamous crack, i swear to god you could land in one of those trees and make it! like a REAL SQUIRREL!
Wow, that's awesome!!! Veeeery interesting to analyse! He seems to reach the "red line" of the slope: does it mean he has increased his glide ratio until the limit of the slope? Another observation: from the profile angle camera, his position is quite "vertical", certainly preparing for the landing on the skis. So he is decreasing his speed mostly with that position. Now imagine a belly landing is possible: the angle of the body would be more efficient for taking most advantage of the lift generated by the suit. In the other hand, the shock of impact of the skis on the ground is impressive, and should break the ribcage of a normal human body, hum...
Thanks for this posting Jarno! ;-)
Btw: I could not reach you by mail within the last months (for the testing of the G3 prototype). What about an attempt next sping?). My mail: firstname.lastname@example.org
Here's another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqW6O_dcF2M (Salomon; actual skydive from helicoptor, wingsuit flying only 6 feet above ski slope surface. This is actually an old video, and wingsuits have gotten better since)
For jumping out of a plane and landing on a ski slope, I do agree that more study is needed (see my idea post) to see if it's pratical to land a wingsuit on skiis. Arguably safer. Large slope gives wide error margin, no fatally-precise targeting needed like for slides, ramps, cardboard boxes, landing pads, etc. More chances of abort (fly off the slope). You can linger several seconds above ground and decide to land or not. Etc. And even a failed landing is much more survivable because of zero velocity perpendicular to ground (See ski wipeout videos of incredible speed, also see survivable 300 mph motorcycle wipeout [YouTube].) For more info about discussions about this, see post #1 and post #2 ...
(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Nov 3, 2010, 5:53 AM)
I think the biggest key in any wingsuit landing is that the wingsuit is the device that does the landing. Slowing down, flaring to survivable speeds as you also say.
There are many videos showing closer and longer flights close to the ground. But none, so far, seem to come any closer to the variable outcome of a motorcycle accident.
Having done that myself, wearing jeans, and coming out okay without injuries after a long roll/slide, I too believe thats survivable. But anytime one goes into boxes, thick layers of powdered snow, or other variables, the wingsuit itself is no longer the sole method of landing/survival, but merely one small variable.
Some-one's just got to do something about the currently atrocious wingloading and low wing efficencies.
Do something about the wing loading? Two options, very simple - not rocket science. You either decrease the load, or increase the wing.
Decrease the load? Drop your body weight to a quarter of what it is? Not gonna happen.
Increase the wing? Sure, make it 20ft wide. At that point though, can you call it a suit any more? A suit is something that a human wears. Nobody wears anything that is 20ft long in any dimension.
I agree Matt,.... Now,..think about :
#1 ....how much weight ( LOAD ) could be reduced by eliminating the HARNESS/RIG/MAIN/and RESERVE ...The same flyers who are getting slightly positive climb rates after a short dive and flaring now , SHOULD be able to increase those positive climb rates and hold it "longer" with maybe 20 to 25 #'s less weight.
Now #2: Google the Cessna Citation S2 and look at its leading edge wing root ( I sold it for a few years after selling the Original Citation ll ( which was a mostly a higher aspect ratio wing joined to an extended fuselage on a Citation I...( the wing leading edge actually extends forward about 6 feet and onto the fuselage and is a bit thicker to "fair it into the fuselage as compared to the CitationII. This increased wing area/aspect ratio ,reducung stall speeds by 3% on the SII ll and the S2's cruise speed was increased by 5% ( with same thrust) due to the reduced fuselage to wing turbulence ( reduced drag )..... I have been thinking of being able to do this with a wingsuit by routing a battened stiffened leading edge of the wing ( just the inner wing root forward ) across the very top of a very strong aerodynamic, custom fitted, light weight composite helmet that is actually worn as one piece connected into an underarm composite shoulder and lower chest "partial ectoskeleton suit" that fits sorta like a short sleeve scuba wetsuit top and is put on and worn 'under the wingsuit" ( which would both protect and reinforce the neck, head and shoulders ) Then:
#3. give some thought to using the forward speed airflow-airlock concept to create a bi-wing ( slightly smaller and only a few inches (or less) above or below the main arm wings and above or below the main aft leg wing ,...both designed and shaped to route airflow and create higher lift overall similar to what a jib, genoa or staysail do in creatin a higher airspedd slot across a sailboat's mainsail...
The higher forces transferred to the flyer might be hard to handle in the arms, head and neck even 'with' a partial ecto-suit ( Lurche's experience) so I envision a series of 2 or 3 strong bungee cords that will run from the flyers elbows and wrists into the sides ( or across the front of the ectosuits chest elbows ( again under the suit) and keep the flyer's arms from bending too upward beyond a certain optimal point for maximum lift in the flare.
#4... if you watch Mythbusters,..you may have seen that a car with tiny mudballs sprayed uniformly all over the exterior surfaces actually got higher milage over a short test course -- as compared to a clean car... ( the mudballs seem to reduce the drag on the surface areas of the car by acting like little vortilons(?) ( simlar to what the dimbled surface of a golfball achieves at much higher speeds... While I don't suggest "mud" there could be a way to do a similar thing on the exterior surfaces of the wingsuit. (I've had fabrics that did that in my dryer)
#5 There is a lot of drag back by the feet in a wingsuit mostly around the heels... Learjet used waht they called "Area Ruling" in their aft fuselage that I could see being used effectively on each leg of a wingsuit to allow a smoother flow of air over the feet/heels.....
#6 I was very impressed when I first saw the use of leading edge slats on a Sabreliner T39 to both reduce the approach speeds for landings and allow the aicraft to use higher thrust and attack angles to avoid ice formation on the leading edge...The Falconjet and many commercial jets have powered slats ( while the Sabre slats were completely aerodynamic and deployed below a certain speed in the approach increasing the drag while reducing the approach speed ( think horizontal speed on a wingsuit) tremendously ( increased lift and drag)and a much slower stall speed. It might be possible to use a flyers calf and foot extensions or their tuck up to deploy fabric slats and / or some sort of fowler flap design through a nylon cable over some geared pulleys inside the suit just after or as flaring and prior to planned touchdown...
These are just a few idea I have given thought to based on my prior jet sales and involvement with engineering at the companies where I worked. Such things as duct inlet shape to cool engine alternators I learned could have very significant effects on drag,...and it also may effect wingsuits if they remain fully open after the suit air locks ....
#6 It's maybe possible to have very simple zero p speed released fabric that could blow back and cover most of the open duct inlets once the suit has pressurized...??
I wish I had the financial resources and the body type ( Tall, wide arm span, thin, strong arm shoulder and core with thinner long distance runner type legs.
ALL this would have to be designed and tested bit by bit at altitude and modified as approriate....
My thoughts are that initially such a suit would be flown by thetpe test pilot I mentioned above STILL using a main and reserve ,...and then evaluated...
If such wingsuit mods could add add another 30 seconds or a minute to a wingsuit flyers experience,...wwll THAT would be cool for flyers of ANy size,,,,, AND such mods might lead to new numbers on vertical and horizontal speeds of some certain wingsuiters ( with say 20#'s less weight) that could then make a landing more potentially survivable.... Then maybe the first tests could be with a small BASE rig on a slightly down hill heavily planted wheat fieds,..or lightly powdered ski slope,...and then based on THOSE EXPERIENCES ( AND FUTuRE IDEAS) taken to the next step ,...which might be a small drogue chutes or two that would deploy from below the shoulders to place the flyer in a more upright position and perhaps allow a running landing ( yes I KNOW ,..THAT would still be using parachutes to land but WOULD be fun to do and would add another half minute to the flying time for certain very experienced and expert pilots like Jeb.
PS I'm climbing the stairclimber 60 flights now and climbing max incline on the treadmill wile building abductor and adductor strength in my now bionic hip. I hope to start running to drop my weight next month, get a new bigger Optima reserve in my rig and fly some in March so I can make the Flock and Dock in April.... God, I've missed flying !
PSS maybe we will find a new rare earth element or plasma material or be able to create one soon ( in the super collider) that will have a much greater lift potential versus volume than helium/hydrogen and we all can fill our suits with a charge of that just after we leave the door? Those are the kind of technology discoveries no one can predict.....
quade (D 22635)
Nov 5, 2010, 11:26 PM
Post #121 of 215
Hi Quade, I'm with Stoney on this one. You started that thread in 2002, and in less than ten years, there have been huge advances in wingsuits. Fall rates are possible now that were unheard of in '02. I think it will be done in the next ten years. I'm still leaning toward a water landing.
Hi Quade, I'm with Stoney on this one. You started that thread in 2002, and in less than ten years, there have been huge advances in wingsuits.
Huge? No. Not anywhere near what would be required for an actual landing.
Now, I realize people talk about Jeb's contraption, foam, packing peanuts, ski slopes and water landings, but those are all gimmicks and still carry significant risks.
When you, me or anybody of any competence lands his parachute, we don't need any extraneous crap or gimmicks. We land on flat grass, dirt or concrete, repack our gear and get back on the plane to do it again.
If you or anyone else thinks that's going to happen with a wingsuit in the next ten years, the betting window is open.
in reply to "If such wingsuit mods could add add another 30 seconds or a minute to a wingsuit flyers experience,...wwll THAT would be cool for flyers of ANy size,,,,, AND such mods might lead to new numbers on vertical and horizontal speeds of some certain wingsuiters ( with say 20#'s less weight) that could then make a landing more potentially survivable...."
Some good thinking there . The $$$ and time factor is a restriction but I'm sure there are plenty of test pilots out there willing to try one of your designs.
It seems that if the wing area could be say doubled at the same time improving the actual performance of the wing (ie making it efficient .) then a landing would be entirely feasible.
Such a wingsuit would not have to extend 20 feet ,as mentioned, but could perhaps extend a couple of feet out from the body in any direction required.
An increase in wing-area could be achieved by extending a semi-flexible section of extra wing stored within the wingsuit. Perhaps bungie controlled as you suggest.
With arms in delta postion they could be retracted , Dive, flatten out into horizontal flight , stretch arms (and legs? ) out and the extra wing extends. I agree that a spar of some sort would be desirable to take any extra lift loads.
Perhaps then with the extra wingarea a greatly improved glide angle would be achieved making a landing no more difficult than deadsticking a cessna.
Perhaps you have some thoughts about semi-flexible wingsuits with efficient non-fabric surfaces .
I for one would like to hear them.
(This post was edited by Trae on Nov 7, 2010, 6:26 PM)