Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Parachutist Editorial

 

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DangerDan

Jul 7, 2009, 8:09 PM
Post #201 of 234 (1403 views)
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Re: [SuperGirl] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

Why is he real sensitive or delicate like a flower. He simply made a comment about a personal attack. I think the biggest motivating factor to this is that DSE is a mod, who is suppose to police the rules not break them.
As for the the topic, i think everyone can agree that the current state of instructors for wingsuits is not perfect. As for me, I dont care which ever way it goes. Some of the instruction I got with the current set up whether it be from Jeff or Ed was flawless and helped me out a lot. From the current arguments brought up here, hasnt proved to me that we need a change. Plus I love to see glen get all riled up and rant


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 7, 2009, 8:15 PM
Post #202 of 234 (1393 views)
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Re: [DangerDan] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

 Plus I love to see glen get all riled up and rant
You just wanted the 200th post sniper admit it.


DangerDan

Jul 7, 2009, 8:23 PM
Post #203 of 234 (1383 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

maybe thats the case but I will neither confirm or deny that


JohnDeere  (D License)

Jul 7, 2009, 9:10 PM
Post #204 of 234 (1359 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No amount of argument is going to convince you that you're not correct in a subjective debate. Ever. Patently clear; brought up in dozens of posts over the years on this website

LaughLaugh Oh shit the truth hurts so bad sometimes......LaughSly


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Jul 7, 2009, 10:05 PM
Post #205 of 234 (1337 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure which document you looked at but check your mail, I have sent you the documents you requested.


SuperGirl  (D 30091)

Jul 7, 2009, 10:11 PM
Post #206 of 234 (1333 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not sure which document you looked at but check your mail, I have sent you the documents you requested.

seems to me (from skwrl's post) that he already checked his mail, looked at the documents and simply reached a conclusion different from yours.

sounds like you're in utter denial and can't accept that LaughLaugh


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Jul 7, 2009, 10:16 PM
Post #207 of 234 (1327 views)
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Re: [SuperGirl] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm not sure which document you looked at but check your mail, I have sent you the documents you requested.

seems to me (from skwrl's post) that he already checked his mail, looked at the documents and simply reached a conclusion different from yours.

sounds like you're in utter denial and can't accept that LaughLaugh


Since there are several documents he could have looked at, I cannot be sure what he has seen. If he looked at just the flight manual, thats not the correct document. But thanks for the smart ass remark.....it made me laughSmile


SuperGirl  (D 30091)

Jul 7, 2009, 10:24 PM
Post #208 of 234 (1321 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since there are several documents he could have looked at, I cannot be sure what he has seen.

fair enough... kinda reminds me of so many people who have posted in this thread without having read the new proposal documents and having no clue what they were talking about...
It's just that knowing Skwrl and how thorough he is in his work, I seriously doubt that he overlooked anything...
I guess we'll have to wait for his confirmation.

In reply to:
But thanks for the smart ass remark.....it made me laughSmile

always happy to entertain Tongue


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 7, 2009, 10:33 PM
Post #209 of 234 (1319 views)
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Re: [SuperGirl] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

 
always happy to entertain Tongue
Friends with attitudes like this we can make it to 300! That would make Danny's post meaningless and I'm all for that. I don't believe he skydives anymore anyway.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 8, 2009, 4:37 AM
Post #210 of 234 (1281 views)
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Re: [SuperGirl] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Step 6. Refrain from insulting those who disagree with you - they may just possibly be right real sensitive and delicate, like a flower... .

fixed it Tongue

Someone else who resorts to insults when their ideas are challenged.Unimpressed Thanks for making my point very effectively.


Butters  (C 37840)

Jul 8, 2009, 5:55 AM
Post #211 of 234 (1252 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No amount of argument is going to convince you that you're not correct in a subjective debate.

And here lies one of the problems ... you want to create ratings and regulations based on subjective reasoning instead of objective evidence.


DangerDan

Jul 8, 2009, 11:25 AM
Post #212 of 234 (1163 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

You believe wrong Glen, I make a wingsuit jump every blue moon. However it has to take a back seat to my new extreme hobby of underwater needle point. That really gets my heart racing and makes skydiving look like a waste of cash. I mean 1 jump can easily purchase 2 or 3 full things yarn (the good stuff too) and a dozen or so needles

edit to add, maybe if your lucky Glen I will make you a 3 stack keychain needle point


(This post was edited by DangerDan on Jul 8, 2009, 11:34 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 8, 2009, 2:00 PM
Post #213 of 234 (1118 views)
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Re: [Butters] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

Objective evidence:
~wingsuiters landing off and breaking bones and incurring other injuries.
~wingsuit instructors being told by other wingsuit instructors (on video) to not take a particular student because that student couldn't handle the jump. Student subsequently breaks themselves.
~wingsuiters colliding in clouds breaking bones
~wingsuiters routinely landing off
~wingsuiters colliding in clear air, breaking bones
~wingsuiters flying so far off-heading they end up in water.
~wingsuit students being taken up in 50Kt winds aloft
~wingsuiters with gear failure ending up dead
~wingsuiters with low jump numbers ending up dead.


Subjective responses;
"It's all their fault, they are experienced skydivers and should know better." Tough shit.
"The system didn't provide them enough information to know what they didn't know, and therefore didn't know to find information that might have saved them from incident. Change the system
With a lot of room for discussion in between. The incidents cannot be disputed. The question is whether there are enough incidents to justify change. In other words, at what level of injury/fatality does one begin to "give a shit?" and want to do something about it.
Any standard is better than no standard.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 8, 2009, 2:27 PM
Post #214 of 234 (1094 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Objective evidence:
~wingsuiters landing off and breaking bones and incurring other injuries.
~wingsuit instructors being told by other wingsuit instructors (on video) to not take a particular student because that student couldn't handle the jump. Student subsequently breaks themselves.
~wingsuiters colliding in clouds breaking bones
~wingsuiters routinely landing off
~wingsuiters colliding in clear air, breaking bones
~wingsuiters flying so far off-heading they end up in water.
~wingsuit students being taken up in 50Kt winds aloft
~wingsuiters with gear failure ending up dead
~wingsuiters with low jump numbers ending up dead.

.

One could globally replace "wingsuiters" with "freefliers" and make much the same statements. It is not evidence of a systemic problem with WS instruction.


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Jul 8, 2009, 2:42 PM
Post #215 of 234 (1087 views)
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Re: [kallend] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

One could also globally replace "wingsuiters" with "skydivers". Sh*t since we already have plenty of instruction with skydivers what are we to do?

Also the line about gear failure should read: "wingsuiters with mis-used gear ending up dead." DSE considering you are a Tonysuits guy you should know that in the incident this January the suit operated just as designed.

In regards to the incident involving legstraps:

I may be assuming too much, but I would hope that this discussion has occurred before considering this is not the first time a wingsuiter has forgotten their leg straps. Was it different in those cases because they were experienced flyers?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 8, 2009, 2:55 PM
Post #216 of 234 (1075 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also the line about gear failure should read: "wingsuiters with mis-used gear ending up dead." DSE considering you are a Tonysuits guy you should know that in the incident this January the suit operated just as designed.

?
The gear failure I was referring to was a hackey that allegedly came off a PC at deployment time (wingsuit jump).
Dunnow where you got the idea I'm a Tonysuits guy. I own more Birdman and PF than I do Tonysuits. In fact, I'm considering taking the BMI course just so I can learn the famous Birdman "pout" that the models in their magazines do. Crazy
I'm aware of at least two additional instances where wingsuiters forgot their legstraps and exited. My submission is that the lace-up wings are what prevented these jumps from becoming a fatality.
In the case of Dan Kulpa/Sebastian, you're entirely correct; the suit operated 100% as it was designed to operate.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 8, 2009, 2:59 PM
Post #217 of 234 (1069 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

 The incidents cannot be disputed.
Lets try.

Since no one is landing a wingsuit all of the issues with landing off injuries are canopy related. You don't need a wingsuit or CRW formation to land off. It can happen to anybody even with a huge dropzone. If the aircraft has an emergency and the pilot tells everybody to get out off, its happened to me. Off can happen to anybody be prepared! Canopy choice should reflect this preparation.

Bone breaking collisions in VFR/IFR: are we talking students or experienced wingsuiters? Are we talking events in countries that don't have any special regs in regards to clouds? In fact exactly what event(s) are you addressing in respect to bone breaking?

Water landing: Water is just an off landing with further complications. If you jump near water again it can happen regardless of discipline. Get training or Don't jump!

Students in 50 knot winds, really? Seems we already have regs that cover that not just wingsuiters but for everybody. Was it outside the FAA/USPA area of oversight IE: another country?

One instructor telling another instructor not to conduct a first flight course due to experience or other safety issues, on video even. ( very bad indeed) Why not take it up with the S&TA in charge?

Wingsuiters with low experience ending up dead for gear failure or any other reasons. I'll just have to give you these: We already have recommendations regarding these. But why not take the issue up with the S&TA, who will be the enforcement regardless if we are talking regs or BSRs or recommendations or a question of judgement? The USPA is not everywhere but typically someone like an S&TA is available for individual matters exactly such as this.


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Jul 8, 2009, 3:09 PM
Post #218 of 234 (1060 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

So with a wingsuit on you shouldn't pull your reserve? As with any other jump, you try twice and go to reserve. In this case, he tried but did not complete the steps that every skydiver is trained to do in a situation where the main cannot be deployed. What would the WSI have said in his training? Re-stated what the student was told in his FJC?


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 8, 2009, 3:10 PM
Post #219 of 234 (1059 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I'm aware of at least two additional instances where wingsuiters forgot their legstraps and exited. My submission is that the lace-up wings are what prevented these jumps from becoming a fatality.
Personally having known and flown with one of those guys and speaking with him after the event. No. He was experienced. During the instance of deployment, realizing he wasn't in his leg straps he reached up and grabbed his risers. Toggles still stowed he maneuvered to the large pond for a no flare landing.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 8, 2009, 3:15 PM
Post #220 of 234 (1053 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

  Re-stated what the student was told in his FJC?
That fatality was not a student. Most things presented about the jump are speculation to include hackey coming off before deployment or after impact.


(This post was edited by VectorBoy on Jul 8, 2009, 3:18 PM)


174fps  (C 3060)

Jul 8, 2009, 3:32 PM
Post #221 of 234 (1035 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Objective evidence:
~wingsuiters landing off and breaking bones and incurring other injuries.
~wingsuit instructors being told by other wingsuit instructors (on video) to not take a particular student because that student couldn't handle the jump. Student subsequently breaks themselves.
~wingsuiters colliding in clouds breaking bones
~wingsuiters routinely landing off
~wingsuiters colliding in clear air, breaking bones
~wingsuiters flying so far off-heading they end up in water.
~wingsuit students being taken up in 50Kt winds aloft
~wingsuiters with gear failure ending up dead
~wingsuiters with low jump numbers ending up dead.


Subjective responses;
"It's all their fault, they are experienced skydivers and should know better." Tough shit.
"The system didn't provide them enough information to know what they didn't know, and therefore didn't know to find information that might have saved them from incident. Change the system
With a lot of room for discussion in between. The incidents cannot be disputed. The question is whether there are enough incidents to justify change. In other words, at what level of injury/fatality does one begin to "give a shit?" and want to do something about it.
Any standard is better than no standard.

Given the above response
Why (if you had not been injured) were you willing to come up to Canada and (as advertised on the DZ website)train First Flight Students who did not meet the CSPA minimum requirements?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 8, 2009, 4:06 PM
Post #222 of 234 (1018 views)
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Re: [174fps] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Given the above response
Why (if you had not been injured) were you willing to come up to Canada and (as advertised on the DZ website)train First Flight Students who did not meet the CSPA minimum requirements?

Bullshit. Lyle very clearly published the requirements to the best of my knowledge. At no point was there any offer to train anyone that didn't meet the requirements of a C CoP, 200 jumps, logbook demonstrating as much, and had I not been injured, the instruction would have included rigging, gear choices, heading, pilot communication, deployment, and emergency procedures. I did fly with one person (not a coached nor instructional jump) that didn't meet the requirements, who had already been jumping a wingsuit for "a while."
I suggest you ask Lyle about our several discussions that took place before I agreed to do the FFC weekend, before making bullshit comments such as this one.

Glen, re-read the 50knot comment. "Aloft" would mean "exit altitude."


174fps  (C 3060)

Jul 8, 2009, 4:17 PM
Post #223 of 234 (1013 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

From: Lyal Waddell [mailto:info@edennorth.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 10:27 PM
To: Lyal Waddell
Subject: Wing Suit course



Hello Jumpers



For those of you that are interested in a little wing suit instruction we have lucked out in getting the opportunity to introduce you to Douglas Spotted Eagle.

Wing Suit Instructor “Douglas Spotted Eagle” is coming to Eden North Saturday, June 20 and Sunday June 21, 2009

He has over 600 wingsuit skydives and was

Line anchor for the 71 way world record event (also was media coordinator for entire event)

Producer, editor of Wingsuit 101 and Wingsuit 202 training DVDs

These excellent DVD’s will be available at the Drop Zone



Douglas Spotted Eagle

Here on June 20 and 21, 2009

Wing suit instruction at its best.

He has the suits and the teaching experience and knowledge.

Now is the chance to take up the challenge.

Three slots available each day.

Register asap with a $50 deposit which will be applied to your coach jumps

*****Call Lyal 780 489 9000 ***** Limited slots available*****

We need your canopy size as well as your weight and measurements to accommodate you with a specific wing suit.

Questions answered by Douglas;

Number of first timers 2-3 each day is optimal, but no requirement

Base experience level required? They must have 200 jumps, Canadian equivalent of a USPA B license. 200 jumps is 200 jumps.





How many jumps expected? two jumps with each FFC/First Flight Course. Only one is necessary, unless they have so many air issues that I have to tell them “Let’s do another to see if we can clean that up.” I don’t sign logbooks that clear them if they’re not stable in two jumps.

Class time associated with your program two ways to run the FFC;



A- Two or more candidates, requires a 1 hour morning class



B- Individually. Approximately 35-40 minute class, pre booked



How many suits can you bring with you? 4-6 suits. I have petites to “big guy” suits.

What other costs would be associated with the coaching and or course for first timer’s vs. more experienced individuals?

Cost of FFC is jump ticket plus 20.00. This includes suit rental. Cost of standard coaching is 10.00 plus jump ticket.

Other FFC requirements. These aren’t USPA or CSPA requirements; these are “Douglas Spotted Eagle” and Flock University requirements;

~Must have a square parachute not loaded greater than 1:3

~Must have an AAD

~Must have an Audible Altimeter

~Must have a hard helmet

~I have a Flock University waiver that is an add-on to the DZ’s waiver.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 8, 2009, 4:39 PM
Post #224 of 234 (1001 views)
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Re: [174fps] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

So, lessee....you copied an email that was partially written by someone else (I'll assume Lyal) and partially written by me.
It's pretty clear. 200 jumps is 200 jumps. I didn't write the part about B or C CoP. My understanding is/was that a C CoP and 200 jumps are recommended by CSPA. If that's not the case, mea culpa, I trusted Lyal on that aspect. Either way, it's pretty clear. 200 jumps is 200 jumps. As are other things *I* require that CSPA doesn't such as audible, AAD, hard helmet, non-elliptical main, low wingloading etc.


174fps  (C 3060)

Jul 8, 2009, 5:03 PM
Post #225 of 234 (989 views)
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Re: [DSE] Parachutist Editorial [In reply to] Can't Post

On the original e mail the USPA B is written in blue
the question is in Black, ie your response to Lyal's question.

BS back at you.


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