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So I have been talking to a few old timers.....

 

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Poll: So I have been talking to a few old timers.....
Jump the round. 43 / 75%
Jump in the car and drive to the hospital for a CT scan 4 / 7%
Try to figure out an intensional cutaway setup or water landing 7 / 12%
I've got a rig I'll let you borrow 3 / 5%
57 total votes
 
LongWayToFall  (A 52639)

Apr 18, 2009, 1:18 AM
Post #1 of 42 (2210 views)
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So I have been talking to a few old timers..... Can't Post

About jumping a round. It seems the general consensus from those that used to jump them in the olden days is that I am completely retarted. All my friends think I am strange as well. So, the question is, is it worth it to jump some old ass gear and risk busted ankles, out landings, hard openings, the time to train for a front mount, etc etc, all the while taking a hit in the I.Q. department from the regulars?


jonstark  (D 8298)

Apr 18, 2009, 4:45 AM
Post #2 of 42 (2188 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Go find a Cessna DZ and jump a round. I don't think it will change anything as far as that retarded comment goes but you might have fun.


skybill  (D 6009)

Apr 18, 2009, 6:54 AM
Post #3 of 42 (2161 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Long Way,
Hahahahahahah!! So you want to jump a "Round???" First off, make sure it's "operational" and not some relic that will disentigrate on opening shock!!!! My last "Round" jump was 09SEP79 in front of manifest at Scare-us-valley on a 26' NAVCON with a Waters' 4-line release after my Viking Superlite encounterd structural failure!! Got a standup ldg. too!! Practice your PLF's really good as you ain't landin' no square!! Why do you think we all used to wear major ankle support jump boots and still got busted legs in the old daze!!!!!???? The major thing to consider is "Desent Rate!!" The less weight under canopy and the bigger the canopy the better!!!! Air temp/density will also play a major role!! Remember that back when, Rounds were all we had and as time went by thanks to good old yankee ingenuity we now have the marvelous air machines we jump today!!!!! So go jump a "Round" and experience the Thrill of Yesteryear!!!


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Apr 18, 2009, 7:34 AM
Post #4 of 42 (2143 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am somewhat puzzled by the horror stories associated with jumping rounds. My first logbook records 64 jumps on 28-foot cheapos, when I bought a ParaCommander. Memory may be failing me, but I'd guess that at least 75% of landings under that old RW&B PC were standups while wearing Adidas. (I really don't believe French boots prevented ankle injuries.) Hard openings? Sure, but they were the exception (until I switched to a Starlight - WHAM!). Landing out? From time to time, when the spotter erred. Over 1200 jumps on rounds and things like T-bows and Paradactyls preceded 2300-odd on squares, the obvious benefits with the latter being smaller pack volume - which was the first consideration - lower malfunction rate - 24 cutaways by that time, so not a big factor - and the ability to get back from a bad spot.
Hoop


Niki1  (D 3103)

Apr 18, 2009, 7:50 AM
Post #5 of 42 (2142 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumping a round, you will liearn that spotting is not just recognizing when the lights turn from red to green. Spotting is a skill that, on the value scale, is right up there with making buggy whips. Putting your head outside the aircraft and looking STRAIGHT down is a learned skill. Determining the Exit point in order to drift to the Opening point in order to have the best chance of landing on the targert is an intellectual skill that you might impress your girlfriend with. Other jumpers will just roll their eyes.


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Apr 18, 2009, 9:10 AM
Post #6 of 42 (2125 views)
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Re: [Niki1] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well said, Mr Nixon.

Hoop
ww.jimhooper.co.uk


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Apr 18, 2009, 10:24 AM
Post #7 of 42 (2113 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

If the gear is in airworthy condition, and if you have been trained for proper use of ALL the components, then hell yeah!!! have at it....
Since you are ALREADY accustomed to freefall and to exits, and to climbouts,,, and to deployment procedures you should have little trouble with " some old ass gear"......

After ALL many of US jumped such equipment AND did so, on our VERY First Jump!!... usually accompanied by "feet out the door"
"get UP on the step",
"head Up " weight on the arms, over the strut", and then,,, Exit!!!.

that gear worked fine then, and should work fine now... be sure it's been rigger inspected,, by someone who has ( in addition to a rigger rating ) LOTS and Lots of grey hairs,,, and logbooks that go back to the 70's...SlyTongueWink

guage the winds, be careful not to get to far downwind,, too soon, during your descent, or you could watch the dz moving away from you while you back up.. over it....
and of course...

do NOT.,,,,,, flare...CrazyTongueSmileWink

Ps...

disclaimer here.... in that My advise to try a "round" ,, extends ONLY to "high performance rounds,, ( now there's an oxymoron for ya' !! )
and NOT cheapos,, or flat circulars, or T 10's...

You DO need some degree of drive, and forward speed, and "sinkablity",, so that your own inherant canopy control abilities, are not foiled,,, by some "damn parachute, that won't DO what you want it to do !! "...
so i'd advise a French Papillon,, # 1 then, an Amercian papillon next , then Russian PC 27 footer, 3rd. followed by the Jumbo Pc ( 28 footer),,, especially if you are anything over 180 pounds or so,,,
If you are lighter than that, you might be ok on a sierra, or a starlight, or a standard 24' Para Commander...

Years ago , allll jumps were made with such gear,,, and some of THOSE rigs were 20 or 30 years old THEN!!.. so if it's been maintained, it should still do the job for you......
Providing..
that...
You...

pull the strings correctly...Wink

jmy

ps... as for the IQ levels of those who consider such an undertaking as 'retarded',, ask THEM...
who do you think were the jumpers who INVENTED,, all of todays modern, 'safe' gear???
the very ones who cut their teeth, on "Pre- ram airs" and who grew the sport to the point where we find ourselves today...

nothin retarded about that ..Laugh


skypuppy  (D 347)

Apr 18, 2009, 10:28 AM
Post #8 of 42 (2113 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with the others who don't know why people are so scared of rounds these days. The military still uses them they can;t be all bad. I say go for it.

I'm a bit heavier than I used to be and don't get great landing on the rounds like I used to get, but they're certainly nothing to be scared of.


jonstark  (D 8298)

Apr 18, 2009, 1:06 PM
Post #9 of 42 (2093 views)
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Re: [Niki1] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Niki,

I was posted to Washington DC for awhile and used to go up to Chambersburg to jump. I asked Al Gramando if I could jump my Piglet one day knowing he had a ban on rounds. He told me "NO!" but I insisted that I still knew how to spot myself just like in the old days and promised him I would not land out. I stood it up in the peas.

Funny thing was so many of the jumpers had never even seen a round. They saw it breathing and oscillating during turns and were convinced I would have to cut it away. Most thought I was already under my reserve.

Hoop, I got 200 jumps on 28' Cheapos before I jumped right up to mu own Strato-Star. I was hot shit!

jon


LongWayToFall  (A 52639)

Apr 18, 2009, 3:00 PM
Post #10 of 42 (2060 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah that is going to be a problem, I just lost 15lbs and that only brought me down to 220lbs! Did you guys discover beer around the same time as squares? Tongue

I certainly agree that the equipment of today was build by the blood of the ones who came before me, maybe that is why people think it is strange that I would want to jump gear that is not as safe.
I almost picture it like working/driving an old car from the 50s. Things were different back then, and when you are cruising around you just feel like you are back in time.
I will say though, that most people agree classic cars are cool, but the same cannot be said about "classic" gear. I suppose that skydiving is about the people, and the act of being in freefall, more than the tools you use to get you there. Classic cars are ONLY about the equipment. Man I love this sport.

So yeah, I just want to pay a little homage to the ones who came before me, and maybe learn a thing or 2 while I am at it.
By the way, someone HAS to loan me one of those white football helmets you guys used to wear.


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Apr 18, 2009, 3:20 PM
Post #11 of 42 (2051 views)
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Re: [jonstark] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hoop, I got 200 jumps on 28' Cheapos before I jumped right up to mu own Strato-Star. I was hot shit!
jon

Jon, Strato-Stars were too closely related to ParaPlanes to give me any confidence in squares. "Jump one of them things? Me? (gulp) My mama didn't raise no fool." Took more balls than I had to strap one of those on my back. A few hundred jumps later, Dick Morgan convinced me to take one of their Strato-Flyers. I accepted the freebie only because I could get it into the same space as my Paradactyl.
Hoop


(This post was edited by Jim_Hooper on Apr 18, 2009, 3:23 PM)


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Apr 18, 2009, 4:26 PM
Post #12 of 42 (2042 views)
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Re: [Jim_Hooper] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Hoop, I got 200 jumps on 28' Cheapos before I jumped right up to mu own Strato-Star. I was hot shit!
jon

Jon, Strato-Stars were too closely related to ParaPlanes to give me any confidence in squares. "Jump one of them things? Me? (gulp) My mama didn't raise no fool." Took more balls than I had to strap one of those on my back. A few hundred jumps later, Dick Morgan convinced me to take one of their Strato-Flyers. I accepted the freebie only because I could get it into the same space as my Paradactyl.
Hoop

That's interesting considering the Strato Flyer landed like crap compared to the Strato Star.

I put about 350 jumps on rounds with one cutaway and the remaining 650 on mostly my Strato Star but also jumped all the really dangerous Squares at Z-Hills before I got the Strato Star including the Para Plane, Para Cloud, Sled, Foil (the original and the newer 7 cell that came out after the Strato Star). I never had a mal on a square. I always thought a properly packed, properly tuned Strato Star would open every time; mine certainly did.

As for the OP, at over 200lbs, you might look for a Jumbo PC for your round jump. I weighed 135lbs while jumping my 28' cheapo and stood up nearly all my jumps. I also landed fairly lightly under PCs and maybe a bit harder under the Papillon.

At 200+ lbs, you would thud in pretty hard under a cheapo.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 18, 2009, 5:12 PM
Post #13 of 42 (2029 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why do it? Like a lot of things in skydiving, because it is a challenge, and there are new skills to learn. It's neat to come in contact with some of the history of the sport.

(And, just between us, there's the cool factor too. Rounds are rare, the gear knowledge is rare, and there's a mystique about them... so you look really badass to be jumping them.)

That being said, it isn't as practical on a tight DZ surrounded by trees or buildings. As Jimmy Tavino said, there's a big difference too between regular rounds and high performance, Para Commander style rounds. (Nice to see his comparison of different types.)

One advantage over the old days is you probably won't be jumping a round all day every day in all conditions... you can pick and choose.


SansSuit  (D 21554)

Apr 19, 2009, 6:14 PM
Post #14 of 42 (1910 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

A few years ago I jumped a round with an intentional, pre-planned chop. The cutaway was just as cool as hanging under a round.

http://www.iplummet.com/round.html


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 19, 2009, 9:54 PM
Post #15 of 42 (1882 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah that is going to be a problem, I just lost 15lbs and that only brought me down to 220lbs! Did you guys discover beer around the same time as squares? Tongue

I certainly agree that the equipment of today was build by the blood of the ones who came before me, maybe that is why people think it is strange that I would want to jump gear that is not as safe.
I almost picture it like working/driving an old car from the 50s. Things were different back then, and when you are cruising around you just feel like you are back in time.
I will say though, that most people agree classic cars are cool, but the same cannot be said about "classic" gear. I suppose that skydiving is about the people, and the act of being in freefall, more than the tools you use to get you there. Classic cars are ONLY about the equipment. Man I love this sport.

So yeah, I just want to pay a little homage to the ones who came before me, and maybe learn a thing or 2 while I am at it.
By the way, someone HAS to loan me one of those white football helmets you guys used to wear.



http://www.dropzone.com/...nt;postatt_id=24898;

http://www.dropzone.com/..._Brains__105818.html


I use to jump my Pap @ 240 lbs, and could do stand-ups a pretty good % of the time.

( 'course I was 18, and probably a bit TALLER back then WinkSly)


~As far as the white helmet.....GITYEROWN! Laugh


LongWayToFall  (A 52639)

Apr 19, 2009, 10:24 PM
Post #16 of 42 (1877 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't that an example of what you are supposta chop?


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 20, 2009, 6:22 AM
Post #17 of 42 (1829 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope your kidding and forgot the smiley.Crazy

Otherwise you have some education required. All those 'holes' are supposed to be there.

I want to jump rounds more but need to lose some weight. Started on 28' cheapo, then 35', then ParaCommander. When I was jumpmastering in the early -mid 80's I'd use two ram air rigs and a round interchangably. After busting up my ankle (not with a round!) I didn't jump one until 2005 when I finally found a Phantom 28' reserve cheap. I hooked it up on three ring risers, put it in a bag with a throw out PC and put it in my normal rig. About the size of a 170. I'm glad I hit the pea gravel but I think I would have walked away anywayWink

I've got a PC conventional rig that I'm putting to gether now. It will be old gear, but..

jumping a round doesn't mean jumping a chest mount or any other older gear. Get a round reserve, hook it up as a main in your regular rig and your ready to go.


LongWayToFall  (A 52639)

Apr 21, 2009, 3:54 PM
Post #18 of 42 (1692 views)
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Re: [councilman24] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah I forgot the smiley. It sure is an interesting looking canopy!

Is a phantom 28' going to be too fast for my beer calorie laden body?
Something about conventional gear is cool looking. I would rather go the whole 9 yards and do that, but if need be I'll be happy with any round jump.

*starts searching for groovy football helmet*


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Apr 21, 2009, 10:21 PM
Post #19 of 42 (1659 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
*starts searching for groovy football helmet*

No, no, no. Football helmets were out by the mid-60s. Very uncool. You want to be be looking for a Bell 500TX motorcycle helmet.


LongWayToFall  (A 52639)

Apr 22, 2009, 1:34 AM
Post #20 of 42 (1654 views)
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Re: [Jim_Hooper] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Man I hope not.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...pparelQ5fMerchandise


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Apr 22, 2009, 4:02 AM
Post #21 of 42 (1644 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post


Cheaper without the face shield? I think I paid about $30 for mine, but that was...ahem...cough, cough..a while back. By the time I started in '65, football helmets were seen as dorky, and worn only by students. There must be hundreds of Bells langishing in garages alongside old rigs. Put up another thread. Subject: Bell 500TX.
Hoop


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 22, 2009, 5:49 AM
Post #22 of 42 (1633 views)
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Re: [LongWayToFall] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

At 220 lbs a Phantom 28 is going to be coming down pretty fast. That's about what I weighed when I jumped it. I work high boots and practiced my PLF's. But remember that I learned on rounds and am very good at PLF's. I you locked a knee when you got ground rush you would break a leg. My putting it in the pea gravel allowed me to not worry about my PLF. On the grass I still planned on walking away.

But, you have to NOT look down and do a very good PLF.

I doubt I'd put a newbie to rounds your size out on the Phantom. You could do it but not worth the risk. There are some newer pilot rounds that can handle the weight but none of them are old enough to be cheap yet. Preserve V and some of Butler's stuff.


steve1  (D 23640)

Apr 22, 2009, 6:56 AM
Post #23 of 42 (1617 views)
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Re: [councilman24] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

We had a huge guy that we jumped with in the army. We had t-10's. I'll bet he was every bit of 250 lbs. (if not more.) They'd let the back straps all the way out and he could barely fit into a standard harness. He was young and tough, and I don't think he ever did get hurt.

The being young and tough part is an important ingredient. Knowing how to do a perfect PLF would help a lot too....


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 22, 2009, 7:04 AM
Post #24 of 42 (1613 views)
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Re: [steve1] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd rather put him on a 35' T-10 than a 28' Phantom. I think. I've been trying to find a 35' T-10 that still has lines but haven't had much luck. (I'm also cheap!)


jonstark  (D 8298)

Apr 22, 2009, 1:32 PM
Post #25 of 42 (1568 views)
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Re: [Jim_Hooper] So I have been talking to a few old timers..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
*starts searching for groovy football helmet*

No, no, no. Football helmets were out by the mid-60s. Very uncool. You want to be be looking for a Bell 500TX motorcycle helmet.

Maybe try for a Bell Super Magnum like I used to wear...


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