Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Have all the riggers started complaining yet?

 


SimpleJack  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 9:14 PM
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Have all the riggers started complaining yet? Can't Post

Im interested to know if the riggers at your dropzone have threatened to raise their price on reserve repacks when the 180 day repack cycle goes into effect.

Have they began whining about what an unfair financial blow this is, that they can no longer charge you 3 times per year anymore. Have they moaned about how this will be a crushing financial blow that will put them out of business? BOO HOO!

Just curious.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 9:23 PM
Post #2 of 57 (1834 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have heard no complains. But I am still not sure if I will raise my rates or not. I am leaning towards seeing what happens, and going with the flow.

I always suggest to unhappy people to get their own rigging ticket and not be subjected to the riggers whining.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 18, 2008, 9:29 PM
Post #3 of 57 (1832 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Several haven't threatened or whined; they have just plain raised their prices.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 9:34 PM
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Yes, prices have gone up here. If you don't like it then pack your own f'ing reserve you whiney bitchWink


DeNReN  (B 5642)

Dec 18, 2008, 9:40 PM
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

You must be Simple...

the search function is your friend...

a few threads on this subject already exist..

If you were that curious you would have taken a look at existing threads..

seems to me that you want attention.


Unsure


SimpleJack  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 10:05 PM
Post #6 of 57 (1798 views)
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Re: [billvon] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Several haven't threatened or whined; they have just plain raised their prices.

But it's the same exact job. How much of an increase is it?

Isn't there anyone at your DZ that will do it for the same price?


porpoishead  (B 30018)

Dec 18, 2008, 10:06 PM
Post #7 of 57 (1796 views)
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Re: [cloudtramp] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, prices have gone up here. If you don't like it then pack your own f'ing reserve you whiney bitchWink


BWAHAHAHA!!!

thats one way to put it!!

I&R prices have increased in this neck of the woods also. it is what it is, I'm not a rigger so I just abide.

you gotta figure you can't please every skydiver no matter what..Unsure bunch of $20 hookers. if you stick it in they scream because they can't take it. if you pull it out they cry because they want more

Smile


SimpleJack  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 10:24 PM
Post #8 of 57 (1791 views)
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Re: [porpoishead] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm not a rigger so I just abide.

Why do skydivers tolerate that?


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 10:37 PM
Post #9 of 57 (1780 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

When you become a skydiver, you might find out.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 10:40 PM
Post #10 of 57 (1778 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why do skydivers tolerate that?
Quote:

here you go:

http://www.para-concepts.com/RiggingCourse/


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

Dec 18, 2008, 10:46 PM
Post #11 of 57 (1771 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Them riggers make way too much as it is Tongue. The good ones around here will probably like it now that they aren't going to be swamped all the time. $55 for 4 1/2 hours of work isn't very good. But I know a rigger(He packed my first two cutaways) that only charges $40, and he'll do it in 20 minutes.


phildthedildo

Dec 18, 2008, 10:48 PM
Post #12 of 57 (1767 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

while indeed it is "the same exact job", the rigger is responsible for his work an extra 60 days, so why shouldnt they be compensated??


SimpleJack  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 10:52 PM
Post #13 of 57 (1763 views)
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Re: [phildthedildo] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
while indeed it is "the same exact job", the rigger is responsible for his work an extra 60 days, so why shouldnt they be compensated??

Well, there's no sense in me complaining if you all are happy paying extra for it. I guess the extra dough will come out of your beer money.


tdog  (D 28800)

Dec 18, 2008, 11:02 PM
Post #14 of 57 (1757 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Before I was a rigger - $50 seemed so expensive and frustrated me.

Now that I am a rigger - I kick the shit out of line twists even if the canopy is in a freefall dive - with "I don't want to pack tonight, I don't want to pack tonight" being my motivation.

A packer packing tandem and student canopies can make twice as much money per hour as a rigger!

But - I feel every serious skydiver should earn the rigger rating and take ownership of their gear and destiny.


Iago  (D License)

Dec 18, 2008, 11:11 PM
Post #15 of 57 (1752 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't met a rigger yet that didn't have more reserves to pack than they can handle. I imagine other rigging endeavors are more profitable than packing reserves so it might be a welcome change for many.


Blink  (C 3275)

Dec 18, 2008, 11:16 PM
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Re: [Iago] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope word doesn't spread to Canada. Our repack cycle is already 180 days, and the price is usually around $50 (CAD)!


porpoishead  (B 30018)

Dec 19, 2008, 2:50 AM
Post #17 of 57 (1691 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I'm not a rigger so I just abide.

Why do skydivers tolerate that?


I can't answer why skydivers tolerate that


I can tell you why I tolerate that... because my rigger is a professional and I trust him. if he has to charge more for his services for whatever his professional opinion is on a matter then so be it.

there's people who cry about riggers not packing their reserve, no riggers av available and try to burn any given dropzone to the ground for bad rigging service or whatever.


I don't act like a bitch dude, so I don't usually have to wait around for a repack.



but just so this doesnt turn into some kind of pissing match....

I do understand what you are referring to...a bunch of riggers are crying about their income on that situation..
nobody twisted their arm and made them become a fucking rigger. so you gotta respect that


(This post was edited by porpoishead on Dec 19, 2008, 2:58 AM)


skyblu3  (C 29727)

Dec 19, 2008, 4:25 AM
Post #18 of 57 (1660 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Several haven't threatened or whined; they have just plain raised their prices.

But it's the same exact job. How much of an increase is it?

Isn't there anyone at your DZ that will do it for the same price?

Your argument holds no ground. I am not a rigger so I wouldn't like to see prices go up either but I do run a business and know a bit about supply and demand.

For example, if you were to order a custom container for yourself you may be qouted x amount. Order that same gear for your entire 8-way team and I am sure it will cost you considerably less. You can argue,"but it's the same container", unfortunately its the way things go. Prices will go up unless the 6 month cycle will generate more business from repairs, etc.. Riggers calculate their turnover from cash in on repacks. If their annual number of repacks is going to be lower then turnover is going to drop and prices are going to go up. Some riggers may leave their price the same but find other ways of subsidising. Charging more for repairs could be one way.

Riggers please take no offence, it's just my theoretical opinion.


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 19, 2008, 4:40 AM
Post #19 of 57 (1658 views)
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Re: [phildthedildo] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
While indeed it is "the same exact job", the rigger is responsible for his work an extra 60 days, so why shouldnt they be compensated?

The length of time a rigger is responsible for his work is the same; the length of time the owner/operator is responsible for continued airworthiness has increased by 60 days.

A rigger is responsible for delivering a parachute system that is airworthy. After that, the owner/operator is responsible for ensuring continued airworthiness, which includes pre-flighting equipment, knowing about and complying with new and recurring ADs and SBs, and returning equipment for maintenance if necessary.

I do not understand why a rigger would accept responsibility for something that is the owner/operator's responsibility.

Mark


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Dec 19, 2008, 6:13 AM
Post #20 of 57 (1611 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Locally SOME riggers raised their prices for I&R of a reserve from US$ 60 to US$ 75 a few months ago. However, some riggers have NOT raised prices. Here is where the free market comes into play: Riggers are free to charge what they want and the jumpers are free to take their work to whomever they wish. As a result, I expect that things will balance out.

Let us not forget that the decision of choosing a rigger usually includes more than just price. Any of the following can play a role in the choice of riggers: location, reputation, demeanor, ability to do more than just repack, rigging equipment available, turnaround time, and price.

I am fortunate to live and jump in an area with about 15 riggers (there are probably others I don't know locally). As a result, we can let the law of supply and demand play out. If I lived and jumped somewhere that had few riggers, we jumpers would have less economic leverage. If you have too few riggers in your area and they can engage in monopolistic pricing... get your own rigging ticket.

No I am not a rigger....yet. I am working on my ticket. I spent several days this week working with a master rigger on my sewing skills. (Damn, the bar tacking machine is WAY COOL!!!!)


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 19, 2008, 6:41 AM
Post #21 of 57 (1598 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Try some simple math.

$50x3=$150
$75x2=$150

Where's the extra out of pocket money? Why the hell should you get an extra $50 beer money a year out of the rigger's pocket?

Me, I split the benefit. Didn't go up to parity but did go up some. Not even half. Needed to anyway so I'm not really ahead.

And the damn pilots that supported the 180 day cylce because it would cost them less only get their rigs packed once a year anyway.Unimpressed

Best idea? Get your own damn ticket so we don't have to put up with you. Then you'll get exactly what you pay for.

B'bye


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 19, 2008, 6:58 AM
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
D 5511 (USPA)

Scott you are lying again. That is not you D lic. number. Mad

You should also brush up on your math. If you get a repack every 120 days at $50 bucks a pop it would cost you $150 a year to keep you rig in date.

If you get it packed every 180 at $70 a pop it would cost you $150 a year to keep your rig in date. You cost of jumping due to what your rigger charges has not gone up at all. All your whining was for nothing. BOO HOO

Sparky


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Dec 19, 2008, 7:15 AM
Post #23 of 57 (1569 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Frankly, Jack, I've heard no whining at all from riggers.

However, I've heard a lot of whining from jumpers, like your whine here.

Do the math, like many have pointed out. If you don't like paying the amount your rigger charges for a reserve repack, find another rigger or get your rigger's ticket yourself and quit your whining. Tongue


What baffles me about skydivers is their willingness to shell out lots of $$$ to go through student status and then shell out lots of $$$ for their first rig and then they piss and moan about having to pay $$$ on the up-keep of the device that SAVES THEIR LIFE EVERY TIME THEY USE IT! Laugh geeze


Ion01  (B License)

Dec 19, 2008, 7:34 AM
Post #24 of 57 (1551 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

(365days in a year/180 new repack cycle)/(365 days in a year/120 old repack cycle)=.66666666 or 66%
This means that if a rigger didn't raise his prices he would only make 66% of what he used to make. Thats a huge difference! Therefore to make the same amout of money a rigger must increase his profits by 33%! So if it used to cost $50 per pack job and 365/120=3.04166667 that means the rigger used to make $152.08 a year from one jumper. If he is only going to make a 66% of that under the new cycle that means he is only going to make $101.39 from one jumper a year leaving a difference of $50.69. Since 365/180=2.02777778 packs a year under the new cycle we can take 50.69/2.02777778 and find that we must charge 24.9978082 or 25 dollars extra per pack to make the same amount which also means the jumper is paying the same amount per year. This means a 50 dollar pack becomes a 75 dollar pack (not a 70 dollar pack). To make it really simple 3*50=150 and 2*75=150 (2*70 does not = 150).


michalm21  (Student)

Dec 19, 2008, 8:06 AM
Post #25 of 57 (1517 views)
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Re: [Ion01] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

those silly charging threads again...
im fine paying $75 twice a year for same annual maintenance cost as long as you only charge $50 after each and every cutaway in between Tongue


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Dec 19, 2008, 8:22 AM
Post #26 of 57 (903 views)
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Re: [DeNReN] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You must be Simple...

the search function is your friend...

a few threads on this subject already exist..

If you were that curious you would have taken a look at existing threads..


Look at this one

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread


Unsure


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Dec 19, 2008, 8:23 AM)


PeteS  (D 8230)

Dec 19, 2008, 8:33 AM
Post #27 of 57 (893 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sparky, when I checked simpledick's profile I noticed that too. Ten years in the sport and a D- lic. in the 5000's? I am a full time Master Rigger running my shop in Nor Cal. I'm not raising my rates until my rent go's up again. Why not get your rating, simpledick, and pack your own goddam racer?


phildthedildo

Dec 19, 2008, 8:33 AM
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Re: [mark] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

NOT TRUE as Ron Edwards (founder of national parachite industries ,and the dpre who gave me my rigging test back in the day) said until that seal is broken you are responsible for whatever is in there.


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

Dec 19, 2008, 9:05 AM
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't keep both my rigs in date for the whole year. If they wouldn't have increased the pack cycle they both would be out Dec. 22nd. I'm not making a trip over the winter so I would've let them both go out. So I only had planned on packing twice this year to begin with. One of my riggers raised his rates last year to $55, wow $5 increase. My riggers aren't in it for the money, they have other jobs to pay their bills. It might be different at the bigger dz's where people do it for a living.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 19, 2008, 9:50 AM
Post #30 of 57 (863 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

>But it's the same exact job. How much of an increase is it?

Around 40% or so. Varies.

>Isn't there anyone at your DZ that will do it for the same price?

I suspect there is. Many jumpers place more importance on things other than price when it comes to repacks, though. Feel free to use whoever you choose.


(This post was edited by billvon on Dec 19, 2008, 9:51 AM)


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 19, 2008, 11:10 AM
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Re: [phildthedildo] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
NOT TRUE as Ron Edwards (founder of National Parachute Industries ,and the DPRE who gave me my rigging test back in the day) said until that seal is broken you are responsible for whatever is in there.

What FAR did Mr. Edwards cite?

What did he say the owner/operator's responsibility was?

I can open and close a National pilot rig without breaking the seal.

Mark


Isfrael

Dec 19, 2008, 1:09 PM
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Re: [mark] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I do not have my own rig, my thoughts on this are as such. You will pay thousands of dollars for a rig, but you bitch about an extra 15-20 dollars for a re-pack that you now have to do one less times a year... Just jump one time less on a Saturday, and there your go. Money saved, and the balance in the universe is restored once again.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 19, 2008, 2:09 PM
Post #33 of 57 (771 views)
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Re: [mark] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A rigger is responsible for delivering a parachute system that is airworthy. After that, the owner/operator is responsible for ensuring continued airworthiness, which includes pre-flighting equipment, knowing about and complying with new and recurring ADs and SBs, and returning equipment for maintenance if necessary.

Mark,
OK ...I'l bite the hookWink

What FAR states your claim to the above?


BS,
MEL


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Dec 19, 2008, 2:42 PM
Post #34 of 57 (761 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
A rigger is responsible for delivering a parachute system that is airworthy. After that, the owner/operator is responsible for ensuring continued airworthiness, which includes pre-flighting equipment, knowing about and complying with new and recurring ADs and SBs, and returning equipment for maintenance if necessary.

Mark,
OK ...I'l bite the hookWink

What FAR states your claim to the above?


BS,
MEL

You asked Mark, but I want to try too!

65.129(b) states that we may not "Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use".

Interestingly, this particular regulation doesn't specify reserve parachutes, so it sort of says that main parachutes must be safe for emergency use. Let's leave that for another discussion.

105.43(b).1 states that the reserve parachute must have been packed by a certified rigger "Within 120 days before the date of its use...".

The FAA website has not updated stuff yet to reflect the 180 day rule change.

105.45(b).2 states for a tandem rig "The reserve parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger in accordance with 105.43(b) of this part."

105.43(c) states that "If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

Nothing says that the rigger certifies the reserve is safe for emergency use except at the time of the required inspection and repack. Once handed back to the jumper, the responsibility passes away from the rigger.

105.43 begins by saying "No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows:"

This regulation puts the responsibility for airworthiness at the time of use on the user and/or the pilot.

105.45 says similar things about tandems.

Hey Mark, did I miss anything?


(This post was edited by riggerpaul on Dec 19, 2008, 2:52 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Dec 19, 2008, 2:48 PM
Post #35 of 57 (756 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes our rigger is charging 150.00 USD per repack now.Mad


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

Dec 19, 2008, 2:58 PM
Post #36 of 57 (747 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes our rigger is charging 150.00 USD per repack now.Mad

HaHa, sucks to be you Wink. I'm actually thinking about trading my Vector for a Racer. That'll put me in a similar boat as you, very few riggers to pick from. At least I won't have a Cypress.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 19, 2008, 4:27 PM
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

When Canada threatened to go to a 180-day repack cycle, at the turn of the century, Barry McAuley (chair of CSPA's Technical Committee) asked my opinion.
I replied: "I will make more money from major repairs."


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 19, 2008, 4:29 PM
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Re: [riggerpaul] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
65.129(b) states that we may not "Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use".

Paul,
If you look at the very begining of 65 it states "Certificate Required"

65.111 Certificate required.
top
(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with 65.127 through 65.133.

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;


In a nutshell, Part 65 is about riggers!

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere does it state in the regs that a owner/jumper is responsible for the airworthiness of a rig.

I charge anyone to show us that in a FAR or AC. It does not exsist!

Quote:
Nothing says that the rigger certifies the reserve is safe for emergency use except at the time of the required inspection and repack. Once handed back to the jumper, the responsibility passes away from the rigger.

Sure it does! It states that the rigger has to pack it! And the owner cannot pack the reserve, so that rules that out. Only one person certifies it for use, that would be the rigger, hence the "certificate required".


Again show us where it states (in black and white) where the owner is responsible.

You cannot "read into" the FAR's. You have to read them as they are written.


Cheers,
MEL


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 19, 2008, 4:34 PM
Post #39 of 57 (715 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When Canada threatened to go to a 180-day repack cycle, at the turn of the century,..........

Rob,
Was that when rocks were soft, dirt was white, the Dead Sea wasn't even sick, and Noah's Ark was still a tree??Laugh

Cheers,
MEL


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Dec 19, 2008, 5:40 PM
Post #40 of 57 (697 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
65.129(b) states that we may not "Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use".

Paul,
If you look at the very begining of 65 it states "Certificate Required"

65.111 Certificate required.
top
(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with 65.127 through 65.133.

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;


In a nutshell, Part 65 is about riggers!

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere does it state in the regs that a owner/jumper is responsible for the airworthiness of a rig.

I charge anyone to show us that in a FAR or AC. It does not exsist!

Quote:
Nothing says that the rigger certifies the reserve is safe for emergency use except at the time of the required inspection and repack. Once handed back to the jumper, the responsibility passes away from the rigger.

Sure it does! It states that the rigger has to pack it! And the owner cannot pack the reserve, so that rules that out. Only one person certifies it for use, that would be the rigger, hence the "certificate required".


Again show us where it states (in black and white) where the owner is responsible.

You cannot "read into" the FAR's. You have to read them as they are written.


Cheers,
MEL

In your argument, you are confusing who does the work with who ensures that it is done.

65 says riggers do the work.
105 says jumpers and pilots ensure that the required work was done by a rigger at an appropriate time. They ensure compliance by checking the Packing Data Card, not by packing the rig.

105 says that a jumper or pilot must ensure that the rig was inspected in the last xx days. 105 says that the jumper or the pilot must ensure that the AAD manufacturer's requirements for service or battery life have been met.

105 does not say the rigger must ensure that the battery is good before a jump. It says the jumper or pilot must do that.

Again I say, ensuring that the work is done is not the same as doing the work.

The rigger does the work and logs it on the Packing Data Card.

The pilot and jumper check the Packing Data Card to see that the requirements for use have been met.

65 says who does the work.
105 is about checking the Packing Data Card.

105 says that on the day a jumper wants to use a rig, he must check the Packing Data Card to see that the rig was inspected within the required time. The rigger is not involved.

105 says that the jumper or pilot must ensure that the AAD was maintained according to the manufacturer's requirement. This means that the jumper must know if the CYPRES(1) battery is past 500 jumps. It says nothing about the rigger.

The only regulation that talks about AADs is 105, and 105 is about jumpers and pilots.

65 says the rig must be airworthy when the rigger packs it. It doesn't say it must stay airworthy any longer than that. If the canopy and harness and container are good, and the battery has not exceeded its specified life, I can close the rig.

105 says that the jumper and pilot must ensure compliance with inspection and service requirements.

Now, it is your turn. Show me the law that says the battery must last until the next inspection.


CMiller  (B 30864)

Dec 19, 2008, 6:55 PM
Post #41 of 57 (687 views)
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Re: [billvon] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is weird. I remember something about the price going down when demand goes down I was ever that good at economics.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Dec 19, 2008, 6:59 PM
Post #42 of 57 (683 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That is weird. I remember something about the price going down when demand goes down I was ever that good at economics.

You are always free to take your rig to the rigger at Costco. I'm sure they'll beat my price.


verticalflier  (D 27220)

Dec 19, 2008, 7:04 PM
Post #43 of 57 (682 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have heard no complains. But I am still not sure if I will raise my rates or not. I am leaning towards seeing what happens, and going with the flow.

I always suggest to unhappy people to get their own rigging ticket and not be subjected to the riggers whining.
In reply to:
I could not agree more, and on the other hand it would be good for everyone to get their rigging tickets anyways.


phildthedildo

Dec 19, 2008, 7:26 PM
Post #44 of 57 (674 views)
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Re: [mark] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

so then ,by your logic, if a rigger packs a reserve and accidentally leaves the molar strap on it,once it given back to the owner/user its their responsibility?


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 19, 2008, 7:26 PM
Post #45 of 57 (674 views)
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Re: [SimpleJack] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Im interested to know if the riggers at your dropzone have threatened to raise their price on reserve repacks when the 180 day repack cycle goes into effect.

Have they began whining about what an unfair financial blow this is, that they can no longer charge you 3 times per year anymore. Have they moaned about how this will be a crushing financial blow that will put them out of business? BOO HOO!

Just curious.

*Nice dramatic projection. You are a talented troll. Rahspekt!!!

To answer the question... no they they haven't but apparently potential clients have... behold

In reply to:
[CMiller]That is weird. I remember something about the price going down when demand goes down I was ever that good at economics.

Did the demand go down? Not really. It seems though, that people who are concerned are not the riggers .


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 19, 2008, 7:41 PM
Post #46 of 57 (664 views)
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Re: [phildthedildo] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So then by your logic, if a rigger packs a reserve and accidentally leaves the molar strap on it, once it given back to the owner/user it's his or her responsibility?

No, because the rig was not safe for emergency use when it was returned to the owner/operator.

Try another example.

Mark


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Dec 19, 2008, 7:57 PM
Post #47 of 57 (656 views)
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Re: [phildthedildo] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so then ,by your logic, if a rigger packs a reserve and accidentally leaves the molar strap on it,once it given back to the owner/user its their responsibility?
No, that's not what he said.

FAR 65.129 says "No certificated parachute rigger may(b) Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use;"

If the molar strap was still on, the rigger is already in violation, and is responsible.

For the purpose of what Mark said, you must presume that the rig was in compliance with the law at the time it was delivered.

Once that condition has been met, and the rig is delivered, the rigger has no further control.

If the owner then pours battery acid on the rig, it is not airworthy, seal or no seal.

The responsibility lies with the jumper.

Failure of that rig to perform as required is no longer on the rigger.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 20, 2008, 5:10 AM
Post #48 of 57 (614 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The responsibility lies with the jumper

Paul,
The FAA is now beyond that point that you are trying to make. They now know that they need to write section for this.

Also,
From Part 105: Definitions

Parachute operation means the performance of all activity for the purpose of, or in support of, a parachute jump or a parachute drop. This parachute operation can involve, but is not limited to, the following persons: parachutist, parachutist in command and passenger in tandem parachute operations, drop zone or owner or operator, jump master, certificated parachute rigger, or pilot.

This links the rigger after he or she has packed the rig as they would not be jumping an un packed parachute!

A lot will come out at the PIA as they are targeting a solution by that time frame.

NOTE: Moderators, could someone cut and paste the posts from here regarding the pack cycle issues, over to the 180 day thread?


Thanks,
MEL


rushmc  (No License)

Dec 20, 2008, 5:18 AM
Post #49 of 57 (613 views)
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Re: [billvon] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Several haven't threatened or whined; they have just plain raised their prices.

Not rasing mine. But then I dont do rigging to make money. I became a rigger because at the time there were few in my area but mostly, I like to know how things work and work on my own gear.

So, for those that use my services, price stays the same this year anyway


rushmc  (No License)

Dec 20, 2008, 5:24 AM
Post #50 of 57 (610 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Try some simple math.

$50x3=$150
$75x2=$150

Where's the extra out of pocket money? Why the hell should you get an extra $50 beer money a year out of the rigger's pocket?

Me, I split the benefit. Didn't go up to parity but did go up some. Not even half. Needed to anyway so I'm not really ahead.

And the damn pilots that supported the 180 day cylce because it would cost them less only get their rigs packed once a year anyway.Unimpressed

Best idea? Get your own damn ticket so we don't have to put up with you. Then you'll get exactly what you pay for.

B'bye

Seems it is NOT a rigger whining here.

So I have to tell you sir. Good post, well stated.


phildthedildo

Dec 20, 2008, 11:49 AM
Post #51 of 57 (397 views)
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Re: [mark] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

can you ,as a rigger , be sued in court ?(even if you didnt fuck up). if so then the term of your responsibility and exposure have indeed been lengthened.and if so then you should be justly compensated


pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 20, 2008, 1:30 PM
Post #52 of 57 (373 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From Part 105: Definitions

Parachute operation means the performance of all activity for the purpose of, or in support of, a parachute jump or a parachute drop. This parachute operation can involve, but is not limited to, the following persons: parachutist, parachutist in command and passenger in tandem parachute operations, drop zone or owner or operator, jump master, certificated parachute rigger, or pilot.

This links the rigger after he or she has packed the rig as they would not be jumping an un packed parachute!

It is useful to see that definition. You emphasized "certificated parachute rigger" and then I emphasized "can involve". So it is just saying that riggers are part of parachuting operations in general.

I don't see that it says that riggers are responsible for all actions involving the rigs they packed (including pouring battery acid on them) during the 120 or 180 days.

I'd only believe that if one could find some language that stated that everyone involved in the operation were responsible for everything being correct at all times -- sort of like the pilots being responsible for jumpers' rigs being legal when conducting parachute ops from their plane.

(Which we know is silly but that's the way it is written. Then it is another matter whether in practical terms the pilot would face any sanction -- probably not for an expired reserve on a jumper that they didn't know about, maybe yes if letting people do chuteless or non-TSO BASE rig jumps from their plane.)


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 20, 2008, 1:39 PM
Post #53 of 57 (373 views)
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Re: [phildthedildo] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

My customers are by and large repeat customers. It matters little whether I'll be sued 30 days after a repeat I&R or 150 days after an initial one.

My best defense is to be the very best rigger I can.

The real losers (in a couple senses) are those skydivers and pilots who choose their riggers based on price.

Mark


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 20, 2008, 3:14 PM
Post #54 of 57 (360 views)
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Re: [mark] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My best defense is to be the very best rigger I can.


Amen!

BS,
MEL


fasted3  (D 30104)

Dec 20, 2008, 3:57 PM
Post #55 of 57 (352 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

If my reserve doesn't work I'm not going to sue my rigger. I do plan on aiming for his car though. Wink
I don't complain about what repacks cost. It didn't seem like a big expense before, and will come around less often now. I will want a very thorough inspection and the security that comes from well maintained equipment. It costs what the rigger says it costs. If I cared about money I wouldn't skydive.


Martini  (D 23756)

Dec 20, 2008, 7:43 PM
Post #56 of 57 (323 views)
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Re: [rushmc] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

New proposed repack cycle is five years.

$50x3=$150
$75x2=$150
$750x.2=$150

I'm sure you won't mind paying $750 for a repack. Good deal for the riggers though.

Oops, turns out the new cycle is 30 days!

$12.50x12=$150

Interesting logic. No sweat for the riggers, right? Just sayin.

What benefit to anyone should the longer pack cycle create? Should the jumper and the rigger benefit equally? (reduced prices for the jumper, less labor for the rigger) Or what?

In the end neither the recreational jumper nor the rigger will set the price. It will more likely be determined by the DZOs.

I need another glass of wine now, no interest in taking sides.


rushmc  (No License)

Dec 21, 2008, 5:04 AM
Post #57 of 57 (285 views)
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Re: [Martini] Have all the riggers started complaining yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
New proposed repack cycle is five years.

$50x3=$150
$75x2=$150
$750x.2=$150

I'm sure you won't mind paying $750 for a repack. Good deal for the riggers though.

Oops, turns out the new cycle is 30 days!

$12.50x12=$150

Interesting logic. No sweat for the riggers, right? Just sayin.

What benefit to anyone should the longer pack cycle create? Should the jumper and the rigger benefit equally? (reduced prices for the jumper, less labor for the rigger) Or what?

In the end neither the recreational jumper nor the rigger will set the price. It will more likely be determined by the DZOs.

I need another glass of wine now, no interest in taking sides.

If I understand you then I agree.

along with another post in this thread that says the DZ's will most likely set the price anyway.

I takes me 4 hours to do an inspection and then repack. I a more interested in how much I get for my time than I am how much I get from some jumper over the course of a year. But that is just me I guess



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