Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
"First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident)

 


Premier Nigel  (D 99999)

Nov 13, 2008, 8:48 PM
Post #1 of 61 (2691 views)
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"First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) Can't Post

In reply to:
I never said I dont FOLLOW the low man rule when I'm jumping at a DZ that uses it, or that I don't have the skills to do so. I said I hate it, and I stated why. Nobody disagreeing with me is going to change my mind. "My mentality" hasn't killed anyone or so much as broken a bone in my own body so far. But I have seen the "low man rule" kill other people.

I'm with you...blindly following the low man is plain stupid. I may do it, even have the skills to, but that doesn't mean I like it or agree with it.


(This post was edited by billvon on Nov 14, 2008, 9:03 AM)


murps2000  (D 23114)

Nov 13, 2008, 10:33 PM
Post #2 of 61 (2648 views)
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Re: [Nigel] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with you...blindly following the low man is plain stupid. I may do it, even have the skills to, but that doesn't mean I like it or agree with it.
Quote:

Land out if you disagree, but don't blindly follow the low man. As others have stated, it works best this way. Especially if the winds are 15 knots or so. Any jumper under a 2.0 WL canopy for whom it is dangerous or possibly fatal to land downwind can then save themselves from their poor decision in electing to jump such a small parachute that they may have to land downwind one day.

I actually always liked this rule for one reason. Usually after a load has to land downwind you can tell by the stains on jumpsuits who is under the proper canopy for their skill level and who isn't. You can often tell by who is complaining or not in the packing area, as well . I will admit, however, that a low man rule may not be the best for all drop zones. You obviously need enough room for dissenters to land out.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 13, 2008, 11:00 PM
Post #3 of 61 (2642 views)
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Re: [murps2000] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

I was looking for a thread in S&T but didn't see it.

I'm assuming my almost complete disagreement with some very experienced jumpers here is purely through my own inexperience and lack of understanding. I still don't get it. Having someone make the landing direction choice at the last minute just seems dangerous to me. The "land out if you don't like it" rule is dependent on there being some viable outs when the first person down makes their choice. The "the landing area is closed once anyone else contradicts the first person down" rule has the same drawback. Other people have stated before that it's possible to mistake the landing direction when you're up high. So even without counting the people who choose to land which ever way they please (no rule will ever fix those people), people actually making an effort to follow the FPD rule can end up screwed.

I've been told to plan the dive & dive the plan. I've been told to plan my landing pattern and fly it. I don't understand how anyone here can then go on to tell me that one person deciding at the last minute is a viable alternative given the seemingly very good reasoning behind planning.

Of course there are scenarios where I need to change my pattern and possibly change my landing area on the fly but why on earth would I want to do that on every jump?

I guess it's pretty clear from this discussion why we're still getting fatalities from canopy collisions. If we can't even agree on the best method of setting a landing direction, how the hell do we expect it to get better? (not including people just doing dumb shit, that'll never change)


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:59 AM
Post #4 of 61 (2618 views)
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Re: [murps2000] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I actually always liked this rule for one reason. Usually after a load has to land downwind you can tell by the stains on jumpsuits who is under the proper canopy for their skill level and who isn't.
BS. If I *must* make a downwind landing in high winds or other less-than-ideal conditions, my primary means of landing will be a PLF.
Standing up the landing isn't important - nor are stains on my jumpsuit. Only having the ability to walk away is.

In reply to:
You can often tell by who is complaining or not in the packing area, as well. I will admit, however, that a low man rule may not be the best for all drop zones. You obviously need enough room for dissenters to land out.
If the low man decides to make a downwinder 'just for the hell of it' or because they are an idiot, hell yeah I'll be complaining. Just because of their incompetence or for their thrill I now have to expose myself to a potentially dangerous downwind landing in high winds, OR to the dangers of landing off in an unknown area.
If the low man is so hell-bent on going downwind, why not make them land off?

Having said all that, I am a newbie who'll sit down to see the experienced jumpers get more experienced.


murps2000  (D 23114)

Nov 14, 2008, 6:39 AM
Post #5 of 61 (2537 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

If the low man decides to make a downwinder 'just for the hell of it' or because they are an idiot, hell yeah I'll be complaining. Just because of their incompetence or for their thrill I now have to expose myself to a potentially dangerous downwind landing in high winds, OR to the dangers of landing off in an unknown area.
If the low man is so hell-bent on going downwind, why not make them land off?
Quote:

Looks great in writing, but it's not always how it plays out. How are you going to get the low man, who may not be determined until the last 30 seconds of the skydive, to land out?

It also looks great in writing when people state that one should select a canopy under which they can safely land out or in any direction. Many people have expressed that view on these boards. But again it's not always how it is. Many jumpers are under canopies that for them are dangerous in such scenarios. I don't feel the rules should encourage this. Sooner or later every jumper has to contend with landing off or downwind and it should not be significant danger to a licensed skydiver. If you have to land in the landing area into the wind to land safely, you need a bigger canopy.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Nov 14, 2008, 7:23 AM
Post #6 of 61 (2509 views)
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Re: [murps2000] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Low man landing out - I was talking about intentionals.

As far as idiots go, well, have their ass chewed out by the DZO/STA/younameit will help..
If the low man are not intending/knowing they are landing downwind until 30secs before touchdown they are dangers to themselves and others.
How is the first-time-off-radio student to plan for this kind of behaviour? Their skillset is at that point quite limited as might their options be if the winds are high-ish.

Anyway, if a DZ has so many outs available, then an "intentional downwind-landing area" (ie swoop lane) could easily be set up, allowing others to land into the wind.

Quote:
Many jumpers are under canopies that for them are dangerous in such scenarios. I don't feel the rules should encourage this. Sooner or later every jumper has to contend with landing off or downwind and it should not be significant danger to a licensed skydiver. If you have to land in the landing area into the wind to land safely, you need a bigger canopy.
And how is unexpectedly forcing such a person to land downwind in the landing area any safer?



<<EDIT: Sorry for the continued hijack, mods...Blush>>


(This post was edited by Baksteen on Nov 14, 2008, 7:25 AM)


parachutist  (D 25468)

Nov 14, 2008, 10:53 AM
Post #7 of 61 (2425 views)
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Re: [Nigel] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's pretty straightforward why this rule was created and why it still exists:
Everybody landing in one area should be heading one direction

Arguments about last-minute-decisions needing to be made indicate that people don't understand the idea of intentionally creating vertical separation between canopies. Hang out in brakes and watch what everyone else is doing. I'm talking about holding in brakes at 2,500 ft... not on final approach... hold brakes up high to create space. These days it's almost guaranteed that someone under a canopy loaded higher than yours is busy heading fast to the landing area. Hang out in brakes up high and observe.

Suppose you're under a highly loaded canopy and there are a few others like that around you... wait in brakes and when the pattern is set, then have at it. If you're the low person under a small canopy... go read the wind sock and set the pattern yourself... or obey the DZ's rule if direction has been pre-determined.

It's so simple that it's easy to do this right. I can't understand blaming deaths on this rule instead of blaming it on poor decisions made by individuals who ran into other people.


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2008, 12:04 PM
Post #8 of 61 (2397 views)
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Re: [parachutist] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't stand the first man down rule. It creates a number of safety hazzards in my opinion:

1. People are expected to keep their eyes on the landing area to make sure they spot the first person's direction instrad of scanning their immediate surroundings for other canopies.

2. The second person down may have already set themselves up to land in one direction when they get passed by someone else. Now what is the third man supposed to do?

3. AFF students (off radio) are often landing well after everyone else is down. How are they supposed to know which way to land?

I prefer a tetrahedron or pre-declared landing direction. I fail to see why this is not a better solution. Some people have said that they prefer the first-man down rule in places where the winds are strong, but change direction. Why is a mystery direction set by a swooper preferable to a predetermined direction even in those cases? How is someone supposed to elect to land off because they don't like the direction if they don't know what that direction is until 10 seconds before they land?

Trying to follow the first man down rule is like trying to be safe at a DZ where the DZO walks over to the windsock and holds it at some random angle just as you get on your base leg. It is unsafe.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 14, 2008, 12:34 PM
Post #9 of 61 (2384 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can't stand the first man down rule. It creates a number of safety hazzards in my opinion:
There is no silver bullet. Its fine for some situation and less perfect for others.

In reply to:
1. People are expected to keep their eyes on the landing area to make sure they spot the first person's direction instrad of scanning their immediate surroundings for other canopies.
This only could be true with no wind. There is usually some prefered way of landing out there.


In reply to:
2. The second person down may have already set themselves up to land in one direction when they get passed by someone else. Now what is the third man supposed to do?
Its a lot bigger problem that some folks are not able to fly recognizable pattern.....

In reply to:
3. AFF students (off radio) are often landing well after everyone else is down. How are they supposed to know which way to land?
They suppose have some hint of the landing direction before boarding. They suppose to open high, so they have time to watch others to land.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 14, 2008, 12:51 PM
Post #10 of 61 (2371 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

>People are expected to keep their eyes on the landing area to make sure they
>spot the first person's direction instrad of scanning their immediate surroundings
>for other canopies.

You always have to watch for other canopies. Not looking for other canopies means that a) you won't see a potential collision and b) you won't see which way the people before you land.

>The second person down may have already set themselves up to land in one
>direction when they get passed by someone else. Now what is the third man
>supposed to do?

Land the same way they do. (If they were passed by someone else it means the first two are going in the same direction.)

>AFF students (off radio) are often landing well after everyone else is down. How
>are they supposed to know which way to land?

Students and tandems generally land any way they can. This generally isn't a problem because a) there aren't that many students per load and b) they open higher and have much larger canopies. In DZ's where there are a lot of them in the air with other jumpers, typically there's another landing area for them.


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2008, 12:52 PM
Post #11 of 61 (2371 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This only could be true with no wind. There is usually some prefered way of landing out there.

Right, which is why you should have a pre-set direction, not a first-man down rule.

In reply to:
Its a lot bigger problem that some folks are not able to fly recognizable pattern.....

I agree, but what does that have to do with landing direction?

In reply to:
They suppose have some hint of the landing direction before boarding. They suppose to open high, so they have time to watch others to land.

They would have some hint of the landing direction, if you have a pre-determined direction instead of a first-man down rule.

None of your points reflect situations where a first-man down rule would be superior.


CMiller  (B 30864)

Nov 14, 2008, 12:55 PM
Post #12 of 61 (2365 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is a mystery direction set by a swooper preferable to a predetermined direction even in those cases?

The different landing areas can have jumpers landing in different directions, so long as all jumpers in the same landing area land in the same direction. A swooper landing in the swoop area will not set the pattern for those of us landing in the main landing area, nor the student area. If you're uncomfortable, you can always land out, as the area is huge.


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2008, 12:58 PM
Post #13 of 61 (2359 views)
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Re: [billvon] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You always have to watch for other canopies. Not looking for other canopies means that a) you won't see a potential collision and b) you won't see which way the people before you land.

If I'm watching the landing area, I can't simultaneously be scanning my immediate surroundings. I thinking about people in the first group down, before the landing direction has been set.

In reply to:
Land the same way they do. (If they were passed by someone else it means the first two are going in the same direction.)

I meant passed vertically. Let me be more clear: If jumper A is on final to land to the East, and jumper B beats him to the grounds by a couple seconds but lands to the North, is jumper C, already on a southerly base leg for an East landing, supposed to turn around 180 degree to land North? How are you supposed to plan ahead? How is jumper D (assuming landing in alphabetical order like most large DZ's dictateTongue) supposed to be able to predict when jumper C is going to decide? First man down can easily result in bedlam for those already in the pattern before the first guy touches down.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 14, 2008, 1:09 PM
Post #14 of 61 (2349 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

>If I'm watching the landing area, I can't simultaneously be scanning my
>immediate surroundings.

You have to be. People can land the "wrong" direction (according to what you think the direction should be) no matter what the rules at the DZ are. If you can't check your surroundings while watching the landing area, you should upsize to give you more time to do all that.

>If jumper A is on final to land to the East, and jumper B beats him to the grounds
>by a couple seconds but lands to the North, is jumper C, already on a southerly
>base leg for an East landing, supposed to turn around 180 degree to land North?

Nope. He then lands out.

No matter what the rules at a drop zone are, every jumper has to be able to:

a) watch the pattern, the canopies near him and the landing area
b) be prepared to take evasive action if people land the opposite direction than he's expecting
c) land downwind if absolutely necessary.


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:29 PM
Post #15 of 61 (2339 views)
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Re: [CMiller] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm trying to look at this as a generalized DZ, not Elsinore is particular.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:40 PM
Post #16 of 61 (2331 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Right, which is why you should have a pre-set direction, not a first-man down rule.
World is changing you should be adaptive if you want to survive.

Just imagine if winds have changed during your load were climbing to altitude.....

In reply to:
I agree, but what does that have to do with landing direction?
If he/she flies a recognizable pattern you can tell the final from the altitude and surrounding.

Why is the landing pattern well used term in general aviation?

In reply to:
None of your points reflect situations where a first-man down rule would be superior.
Its still a fine tool for avoiding canopy collisions....


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:40 PM
Post #17 of 61 (2330 views)
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Re: [billvon] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have to be. People can land the "wrong" direction (according to what you think the direction should be) no matter what the rules at the DZ are. If you can't check your surroundings while watching the landing area, you should upsize to give you more time to do all that.

Time is not the issue. I, like most people, only have eyes in the front of my head. If I happen to be upwind and holding while the first guy is landing whatever way he wants, I can't both look where I'm going and determine the landing direction. And really, I'm not talking about me, Dan G, I'm talking about the newer licensed jumper or advanced student who is already dealing with a high mental load. Now you're expecting him to rearrange his landing pattern because somebody else decided to land crosswind.

In reply to:
Nope. He then lands out.

That's fucking hard core. At most DZ's if a jumper in on his base leg, landing out is no longer an option. He needs to land in the landing area. I'm not talking about the guy at 2,000ft who doesn't like what he sees, I'm talking about the guy at 400ft.

In reply to:
No matter what the rules at a drop zone are, every jumper has to be able to:

a) watch the pattern, the canopies near him and the landing area
b) be prepared to take evasive action if people land the opposite direction than he's expecting
c) land downwind if absolutely necessary.

Sure, but at DZ's with a first-man down rule that jumper must also be able to unnecessarily readjust his landing pattern at the last second on every single load.

I simply don't understand the resistance to a set landing direction or a stable direction determining device like a large tetrahedron.

And no one has yet to explain why the first-man down rule would ever be superior.


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:45 PM
Post #18 of 61 (2324 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
World is changing you should be adaptive if you want to survive.

Totally agree. The first-man down rule is old school. We've evolved past that.

In reply to:
Just imagine if winds have changed during your load were climbing to altitude.....

So what? What if the first guy down lands downwind? Land off, right. Then if the wind does a 180 while you're in the plane, land off. Same thing.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:45 PM
Post #19 of 61 (2324 views)
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Re: [billvon] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>If jumper A is on final to land to the East, and jumper B beats him to the grounds by a couple seconds but lands to the North, is jumper C, already on a southerly base leg for an East landing, supposed to turn around 180 degree to land North?

Nope. He then lands out.

Oh great. The Jumper C guy is on his base leg and suddenly has to find an "out" because Jumper B is an idiot.




No matter what the rules at a drop zone are, every jumper has to be able to:

a) watch the pattern, the canopies near him and the landing area
b) be prepared to take evasive action if people land the opposite direction than he's expecting
c) land downwind if absolutely necessary.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:51 PM
Post #20 of 61 (2315 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So what? What if the first guy down lands downwind? Land off, right. Then if the wind does a 180 while you're in the plane, land off. Same thing.
How many times has it happend with you?

I got none of that.Cool


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:55 PM
Post #21 of 61 (2311 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many times has it happend with you?

I got none of that.

Huh? I don't get the question.

And the first-man down screws the landing direction a lot more often than a strong wind does a 180 in 15 minutes. And if it does you shouldn't be jumping anyway.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 14, 2008, 1:58 PM
Post #22 of 61 (2311 views)
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Re: [everyone] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, this topic has been beat to death in several threads.

What are you seeing?
Very extremely few, if anyone, seeing the light and changing anything they currently do at their home DZ.

In spite of all the problems the FMD rule creates and it's inherent disregard for our young jumper's safety, the FMD people can only come up with...changing winds.

One can only question the sanity of those who turn a blind eye towards the fact that more downwinders are caused by the idiot hot-rods than will EVER be caused by changing winds.

The best one can do is simply avoid those DZs and people who condone the FMD rule.

It's much like the 45 degree rule. No matter how it's proven otherwise, there are still people who swear that it's the best technique for determining horizontal separation.

Oh...and you guys promoting the tetrahedron....oh how funny it is to hear your guys squeal about "chasing the windsock" anarchy.

Oh...and you guys whackin' on people about canopy skills and being able to chase the FMD, YOU of all people should be the ones able to handle cross-wind and downwind landings in the first place. Never mind the young jumpers with less than perfect skills...oh wait...you weren't considering them anyway.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 14, 2008, 2:00 PM
Post #23 of 61 (2308 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And the first-man down screws the landing direction a lot more often than a strong wind does a 180 in 15 minutes. And if it does you shouldn't be jumping anyway.

...and here's another guy that "gets it".
Good stuff, guy...sad that those who need it aren't listening.




OK, I'm going to go have a beer and calm down.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 14, 2008, 2:04 PM
Post #24 of 61 (2303 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

How many times has FMD screwed you?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 14, 2008, 3:29 PM
Post #25 of 61 (2281 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

>Time is not the issue.

Of course it's an issue. If everyone was doing 1mph, then a) everyone would have time to look around more and b) they'd have more time to react. That's why canopy collisions have increased as canopy speeds have increased.

>Now you're expecting him to rearrange his landing pattern because somebody else
>decided to land crosswind.

Yes. You have to be able to do that no matter what rules your DZ has.

>I simply don't understand the resistance to a set landing direction or a stable
>direction determining device like a large tetrahedron.

There's nothing wrong with that system. Nor is there anything wrong with the first person down system. Both can work; both have pluses and minuses.

>And no one has yet to explain why the first-man down rule would ever be superior.

It could help prevent landing downwind in 20kt winds. You, of course, may jump at a DZ where that sort of situation almost never happens.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 14, 2008, 4:10 PM
Post #26 of 61 (896 views)
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Re: [billvon] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

Tell you what, now that a cooler head has prevailed.
For DZs that experience such radical wind shifts, please by all means do what you have to do. FMD may be a way to handle that if everyone uses their heads and not their egos.

For those DZs that do not, please use the tried and true pre-determined landing pattern.


I think we all lost the "radical wind shift area" description of that DZ.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Nov 14, 2008, 4:25 PM
Post #27 of 61 (890 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

Dozen or so in the last year on low wind days, over my entire experience? A hundred or so at least. The issue is there are some swoopers that throw turns of varying degree and until they touch down I never know which way they are going since they head to the middle of the landing area and throw their turn right down the middle of it. Some times they throw a 270, other times its a 540 and then every once and a while it was a 360. How the hell am I to fly a pattern that to land in a direction when I don't know what the direction is until I am already on my downwind or lower?

It honestly annoyed the piss out of me to be on downwind and have a swooper start out a couple of hundred feet above me and over the center of the LZ , they would hook it and do multiple rotations and land before me. How do you pick a direction in those cases when you are in your pattern and someone goes right by you and lands 180 from how you are flying the pattern?

I MUCH perfer the preset direction if there is no wind and then if the wind is strong enough to alter the pattern from there. Pick a simple N,S,E,W direction and anyone that lands other then that direction if there is no wind is wrong. Chasing the windsock is not an argument or excuse.


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2008, 4:53 PM
Post #28 of 61 (880 views)
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Re: [billvon] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes. You have to be able to do that no matter what rules your DZ has.

I disagree. To avoid an unexpected obstacle, a turn over 15 degrees is rarely called for. If you have a pre-determined landing direction, then changing the direction of your final approach at the last second is never called for.

In reply to:
There's nothing wrong with that system. Nor is there anything wrong with the first person down system. Both can work; both have pluses and minuses.

I've pointed out a number of minuses to the first-man down system. The only plus you've come up with is:

Quote:
It could help prevent landing downwind in 20kt winds.

And in reply, I say it also has a good change of causing it. A tetrahedron or properly monitored pre-determined landing direction (change it when the winds change 180) is much more likely to prevent this problem.

It's obvious you are set and determined to defend the first-man down rule and nothing I can say will sway you. To everyone else reading this, think about the issue yourself and talk with your DZO or S&TA if you don't like what's happening at your DZ.

Thanks for the civil discussion, Bill. I think I've added everything I can think of to say about this.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 14, 2008, 5:12 PM
Post #29 of 61 (871 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

>It's obvious you are set and determined to defend the first-man down rule
>and nothing I can say will sway you.

?? I think both systems can work, and have used both systems. Both have their pluses and minuses. At big DZ's with huge grassy landing areas and steady winds, predeclared landing directions work great. At DZ's with small, linear landing areas and frequent (and strong) wind shifts, first person down works well. In both cases all jumpers MUST be able to see what direction others are landing and take appropriate action to avoid landing pattern conflicts.


parachutist  (D 25468)

Nov 14, 2008, 6:20 PM
Post #30 of 61 (863 views)
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Re: [DanG] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can't stand the first man down rule. It creates a number of safety hazzards in my opinion:

1. People are expected to keep their eyes on the landing area to make sure they spot the first person's direction instrad of scanning their immediate surroundings for other canopies.

It's all about scanning, which you should be doing anyway. Up, down, around, landing area, etc. No your eyes aren't restricted to looking down.

In reply to:
2. The second person down may have already set themselves up to land in one direction when they get passed by someone else. Now what is the third man supposed to do?

Third person plans on chewing out the confused jumpers when he gets down, and in the mean time finds an open area to land.

In reply to:
3. AFF students (off radio) are often landing well after everyone else is down. How are they supposed to know which way to land?

Because the first person sets the pattern, and everyone after him follows. You don't have to see the first to know which way the pattern has been set... you look at those who followed. If there really is that much space between experienced folks and the low-timers, then it's a new start... now it's time for the low-timer to look at the wind sock and choose which way to land.

In reply to:
I prefer a tetrahedron or pre-declared landing direction. I fail to see why this is not a better solution.

It's a different solution and I'm not saying it's worse... but on no-wind days you're going to have jumpers who didn't ask about the pre-declared direction, came in from other DZ's where the standard is different, or they just wanted to land their own direction.. the problem of people landing different ways will still exist.

In reply to:
Why is a mystery direction set by a swooper preferable to a predetermined direction even in those cases?

If there's any wind, then it shouldn't be a mystery direction... the first one down should be deciding which way to go based on wind sock, tetrahedon, or DZ rules that say which way to head.

In reply to:
How is someone supposed to elect to land off because they don't like the direction if they don't know what that direction is until 10 seconds before they land?

Once again, you're missing the point: You and everyone else should create vertical separation so that you're not surprised at the last minute. Plan well in advance... there should be a very low possibility of last-minute surprises if you create separation.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Nov 14, 2008, 6:37 PM
Post #31 of 61 (858 views)
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Re: [parachutist] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How is someone supposed to elect to land off because they don't like the direction if they don't know what that direction is until 10 seconds before they land?

Once again, you're missing the point: You and everyone else should create vertical separation so that you're not surprised at the last minute. Plan well in advance... there should be a very low possibility of last-minute surprises if you create separation.
Once again you are missing the point of swoopers who do varying degrees of turns which means you cannot tell which way they are going to land until the last second. Or you have newer jumpers who may act unpredictable and change direction at the last minute.

Personally I do not like following the first man down. People, even very experienced jumpers, make mistakes and land the wrong way. I cannot see any advantage of the FMD rule. I the winds are going to be changing that dramatically from the time you take off to the time you land then you probably should not be jumping.


BUBLHED

Nov 14, 2008, 7:13 PM
Post #32 of 61 (855 views)
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Re: [billvon] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that both systems can work, but we are all in this together. If someone wants to land downwind or crosswind more power too them. They should then let the load know what they are doing and then THEY should land out. We all know that the safest way to land is into the wind. Into the wind should always be the prefered landing pattern. We don't have to chase the sock every 5 degrees but predominently into the wind. We all need to be able to change our pattern at the last minute, land cross and downwind but why should we increase our risk for someone wanting alittle more thrill? I like thrill to but on my terms not because I'm forced to for no other reason than Johnny big balls needs to get off. I will do what I need to do to ensure my safety as well as the others around me, period.




Look Out HERE'S JOHNNY!!!!!


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 15, 2008, 1:08 AM
Post #33 of 61 (829 views)
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Re: [parachutist] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's all about scanning, which you should be doing anyway. Up, down, around, landing area, etc. No your eyes aren't restricted to looking down.
And how much time is required to discern the landing direction of all the people in front of you in the pattern, checking to see if you still have a viable out *and* scanning for canopies around you? Some of the more experienced people may be able to do this in their sleep but I sure as hell can't calculate that much stuff *reliably* on *every* jump. What I'm focussed on right now is the people approximately on my level and anyone doing stupid shit, with FPD I have to focus on that *and* everyone landing in front of me.

In reply to:
Third person plans on chewing out the confused jumpers when he gets down, and in the mean time finds an open area to land.
Your DZ may have plenty of viable open outs and only few jumpers in the air such that the 3rd person down is at 2000ft as you'd said earlier. There are plenty more people at my DZ resulting in the first several people being in the pattern at the same time, well below 2000ft.

In reply to:
Because the first person sets the pattern, and everyone after him follows. You don't have to see the first to know which way the pattern has been set... you look at those who followed. If there really is that much space between experienced folks and the low-timers, then it's a new start... now it's time for the low-timer to look at the wind sock and choose which way to land.
So, anyone with a large gap gets to choose which direction they're going to land? The students don't see anyone landing and then have to figure it out?

In reply to:
It's a different solution and I'm not saying it's worse... but on no-wind days you're going to have jumpers who didn't ask about the pre-declared direction, came in from other DZ's where the standard is different, or they just wanted to land their own direction.. the problem of people landing different ways will still exist.
No. We're all in the loading area at the same time and everyone agrees which direction to land. It's shouted *loudly* in the loading area *and* on the plane. Anyone that doesn't land in the agreed direction is pulled aside by other jumpers and told to get their shit together.

In reply to:
If there's any wind, then it shouldn't be a mystery direction... the first one down should be deciding which way to go based on wind sock, tetrahedon, or DZ rules that say which way to head.
It *is* a mystery because the first person down decides in the air. How is that not a mystery? On one hand people are saying that pre-determined direction doesn't help if the wind changes and that FPD is better because you can chase the wind sock? Again, a downwind landing with a PLF or a possible collision? I'd take the PLF any day.

In reply to:
Once again, you're missing the point: You and everyone else should create vertical separation so that you're not surprised at the last minute. Plan well in advance... there should be a very low possibility of last-minute surprises if you create separation.
How can *everyone* create vertical separation if *everyone* is hanging in brakes? Again, probably inexperience talking but doesn't that mean we're all just hanging up there in the order we were before, separated by the same vertical distance?

If people put themselves in the shoes of the FPD, it probably seems like a good rule because you know your own skills and you know you're generally very good at working it out. For me, low jump numbers, love the canopy but so much to learn, the *last* thing I want is for some person who's overly sure of their own skills deciding which direction looks best. The FPD may be some amazing canopy pilot that knows the DZ like the back of their hand but what if they're not? The FPD only seems to grant flexibility, in reality it grants flexibility to the first person down *only*. For everyone else, it's pot luck.

The FPD is at least partially decided by the exit order from the plane, so if there are 3 belly groups, all low jump numbers, they're all opening at 3.5k who's racing them to the ground to set the landing pattern right?

I'm sure a lot of my ranting is born out of my inexperience, I need to remind myself (less so recently) that any time it seems black and white or, at least relatively straight forward, that's more than likely because I don't see the big picture. In this case I feel *very* strongly about this and it *seems* crystal clear, that's a couple of red flags right there. Unfortunately, I've yet to hear a convincing argument for FPD over pre-determined landing direction. I'm hoping someone can convince me because with all these experienced people saying it's the best way but not really giving good reasoning (again, maybe too inexperienced see the reasons are good) I'm left wondering what I'm missing and therefore how safe I am with the possibly mistaken perception that FPD seems like a clusterfuck waiting to happen.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Nov 15, 2008, 1:10 AM)


murps2000  (D 23114)

Nov 15, 2008, 7:34 AM
Post #34 of 61 (818 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure a lot of my ranting is born out of my inexperience, I need to remind myself (less so recently) that any time it seems black and white or, at least relatively straight forward, that's more than likely because I don't see the big picture. In this case I feel *very* strongly about this and it *seems* crystal clear, that's a couple of red flags right there. Unfortunately, I've yet to hear a convincing argument for FPD over pre-determined landing direction. I'm hoping someone can convince me because with all these experienced people saying it's the best way but not really giving good reasoning (again, maybe too inexperienced see the reasons are good) I'm left wondering what I'm missing and therefore how safe I am with the possibly mistaken perception that FPD seems like a clusterfuck waiting to happen.
Quote:

Like most things in life, there is no black and white and nothing is crystal clear. There are often only smokey shades of grey. I'll admit that I like FMD for reasons that may not be the best, but what needs to be reiterated is that this rule is definitely not the way to go for all dropzones.

Last time I was at Skydive Orange (a while ago) it didn't seem like a good strategy for them. They have a nice highly visible tetrahedron, however, and had rules that made use of it. From more recent aerial photos I've seen, it appears that the number of obstacles surrounding the main landing area has not decreased as the years have gone by, so aborting an approach at 500' to land out would likely be more hazardous than at some other dropzones.


Last time I was at Perris (a little less time ago) they had what was essentially a linear main landing area. It was basically a parachutist runway next to the real one, in which jumpers would land in one of two directions. The winds do shift direction quickly there, so a predetermined direction decided upon boarding may or may not result in everyone landing in the "safest" direction. I can also see how a tetrahedron indicating a crosswind could create more confusion than just letting FMD select landing direction. It's defensible confusion, too, because everyone can claim they were following the tetrahedron. Perris also had plenty of room for dissenting jumpers to land out and a seperate landing area for students.

There's no golden rule that works at all dropzones, and additionally, whatever strategy is employed to govern landing direction in the main landing area should not apply to students and tandems if at all possible.


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 15, 2008, 8:43 AM
Post #35 of 61 (803 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

I find it interesting that you advocate one rule over another when you jump at a dropzone famous for not having any rules. I have to say that they do a pretty good job much of the time choosing a landing direction before the load or on the plane, but I've also never been to another dropzone that has so many people landing in EVERY direction... and with nobody even making any kind of stink about it. Not only do they not have a first person down rule, they don't have an "everybody land in the same direction" rule.

My first time there, I asked for a briefing on the landing pattern. My exact briefing: "Don't kill anybody."

And by the way, I don't disagree with you. But just to play devil's advocate... At Eloy during the nationals, they put up about 130 loads in one day, all using the first person down rule. I didn't see more than a couple people landing the wrong way over a week there, and the landing direction shifted 180 degrees many times most days. At your DZ, I've seen 50% of a load land one way and the other half land the opposite way... all intermixed.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Nov 15, 2008, 8:52 AM)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 15, 2008, 9:20 AM
Post #36 of 61 (812 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, the Ranch. The Ranch may have no rules but every load I've been on, a landing direction is decided upon by the jumpers on the load. Sometimes, amusingly enough, actually on the plane. Even if the DZ doesn't have rules, doesn't mean the jumpers don't work it out. It ends up that everyone (willing) gets involved in making the choice.

The briefing I give to new people coming to the Ranch is exactly what I was told as a student: left hand pattern, where the holding areas are, normal direction etc. plus a little reality check.

I've definitely seen people landing all over the place and it's stupid but FMD won't change that. Maybe my (limited) experience at the Ranch qualifies me to actually say something about landing direction? Wink

The main point of my argument is that, for the most part, issues with pre-determined landing direction all exist for FMD but with less certainty. (again, inexperienced, could be wrong here)


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 15, 2008, 11:15 AM
Post #37 of 61 (799 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

As I said, I generally agree with you. My DZ basically uses both rules... we set a pattern, but then follow the first person down in case the wind shifts drastically. It definitely can suck when someone changes up the pattern and can lead to a lot of confusion. But most of the time it works well.

But only setting a pattern has its limits. At your DZ (I did more jumps there this year than at my home DZ), I haven't had many problems myself. But I witnessed a lot of close calls... way too many. My last jump there was interesting... sunset load and half the plane had decided to land one way while the other half decided to land the other way (and of course we all thought everybody agreed). That's one of the problems with the not having a first person down rule... first person down landed the "wrong way" (to me). The next person didn't follow and landed the opposite way. Then half the load proceeded to land one way and the other half landed opposite. If everybody just changed their patterns to match the first person down, it would have been much safer. And of course it would have been even safer if communication hadn't broken down before we left the plane in the first place.

It's a complicated issue... Using a predetermined landing direction only works when there's effective communication of the landing direction. That means a visual (and fixed) landing direction indicator (never seen one in action myself) or a way of ensuring that landing direction is set in stone before boarding the plane.

Another way I've seen it fail at your DZ is when it's really busy and multiple loads are mixing in the pattern on a light wind day. It's up to each load to determine their landing direction. Loads don't communicate with each other. I've been in the pattern when either the first people from the next load or the last people from the previous load were in the pattern at the same time, landing in the opposite direction.

I'm not knocking your DZ (ok maybe a little)... just pointing out that it's a complicated issue. There are cases where a first person down rule would solve traffic pattern conflicts. And your no-rules DZ is a perfect example.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Nov 15, 2008, 11:20 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 15, 2008, 2:23 PM
Post #38 of 61 (774 views)
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Re: [murps2000] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Especially if the winds are 15 knots or so.

If the first man down can't figure out which way to land with a 15 knot wind, I'm going to land into the wind and then tell him he's a f*cking idiot. Hell, you don't even need a wind indicator to figure the wind direction at 15 knots.Wink


Kami-kaze  (C 34855)

Nov 15, 2008, 3:53 PM
Post #39 of 61 (763 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

So, if you are the first man down and want to do a downwinder, intentionally or not, how strong wind would it be acceptable?
I mean if I am going to do one intentionally I'll check there is no one too downwind and low so he won't be able to make it.
I agree 15 kts it a bit too much, but it's good to have occasional downwinders and surprises thrown in. It keeps one aware and be prepared to changes and I think that saves lives.


(This post was edited by Kami-kaze on Nov 15, 2008, 4:05 PM)


BUBLHED

Nov 15, 2008, 5:28 PM
Post #40 of 61 (746 views)
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Re: [Kami-kaze] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes it's good to have a few downwinders but they shouldn't be forced on us. We all need to be prepared to handle an unusual situation, but that takes careful practice. Not everyone will be prepared to make that perfect landing downwind just for laughs. I would hate to think of the medical bills for that broken leg or worse inflicted on someone because of things like this. Yes I'll take any landing direction and try to muster all my skills to survive it when that's my last choice, but given the choice lets try to insure the overall safety of everybody so we can keep jumping. (A helicopter ambulance shuts the DZ down to long, I wanna jump again)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Nov 15, 2008, 7:45 PM
Post #41 of 61 (732 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

I set the pattern downwind at Eloy one day. The wind was light and variable from the NNW-NNE. The LZ nazi was on me in a flash to give me hell.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 15, 2008, 9:00 PM
Post #42 of 61 (718 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I set the pattern downwind at Eloy one day. The wind was light and variable from the NNW-NNE. The LZ nazi was on me in a flash to give me hell.

Setting a downwinder in this wind direction would suggest you were landing in the South landing area; this is the student area, and only to be landed into the wind from north or south. Downwinds are not to be done in that landing area. If you were in the North landing area, this would be a crosswind landing, and generally shouldn't be a problem unless you cross where the LZ is divided in half. There is also a beer line there.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 15, 2008, 10:26 PM
Post #43 of 61 (702 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As I said, I generally agree with you.
Noted. Smile

In reply to:
But only setting a pattern has its limits. At your DZ (I did more jumps there this year than at my home DZ), I haven't had many problems myself. But I witnessed a lot of close calls... way too many. My last jump there was interesting... sunset load and half the plane had decided to land one way while the other half decided to land the other way (and of course we all thought everybody agreed). That's one of the problems with the not having a first person down rule... first person down landed the "wrong way" (to me). The next person didn't follow and landed the opposite way. Then half the load proceeded to land one way and the other half landed opposite. If everybody just changed their patterns to match the first person down, it would have been much safer. And of course it would have been even safer if communication hadn't broken down before we left the plane in the first place.
Exactly how does FPD fix this? We can't stop people being idiots unfortunately, pre-determined landing direction doesn't absolve anyone from staying in the pattern. I guess it's really the same thing, with PDP (pre-determined pattern - sick of typing it Wink) people still need to see what people in front of them are doing but there'd have to be a damn good reason for switching directions. LV winds don't count as a good reason and I do sit down when it's very windy and changeable.

In reply to:
Another way I've seen it fail at your DZ is when it's really busy and multiple loads are mixing in the pattern on a light wind day. It's up to each load to determine their landing direction. Loads don't communicate with each other. I've been in the pattern when either the first people from the next load or the last people from the previous load were in the pattern at the same time, landing in the opposite direction.
Again, how does FPD fix this? We're now expecting each load to be watching that far ahead? I know we sometimes have 3 otters going at which point it gets to be a bit crowded. In reality, people are just going to be (or should be) watching the couple of canopies in front of them and doing what they do.

In reply to:
I'm not knocking your DZ (ok maybe a little)... just pointing out that it's a complicated issue. There are cases where a first person down rule would solve traffic pattern conflicts. And your no-rules DZ is a perfect example.
I don't have anywhere near enough experience to really argue against anyone, just stating my reasoning. What I'm wondering is why you think that people who ignore the agreed pattern would adhere to a FPD method? They didn't listen to one rule, why listen to some random person who beat them down?

I'd be fine with the DZ setting the direction with a big (fixed) arrow that points in which ever direction is safest

BTW, I'd like to chat next time you're at the Ranch, I'm really not the giant douche my posts make me out to be. Ok, well, I really am but I have an accent so it's ok (apparently).

Wink


murps2000  (D 23114)

Nov 15, 2008, 11:08 PM
Post #44 of 61 (701 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

If the first man down can't figure out which way to land with a 15 knot wind, I'm going to land into the wind and then tell him he's a f*cking idiot. Hell, you don't even need a wind indicator to figure the wind direction at 15 knots.
Quote:

Maybe he figured correctly but just differently than you or I might. If I'm under canopy at DZ where FMD is the rule, the first man lands downwind, and I don't want to, I'll land into the wind, too. But I'll land out and take my sweet time walking my tiny balls back to the packing area while I rethink my main canopy choice.Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 16, 2008, 2:51 AM
Post #45 of 61 (686 views)
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Re: [billvon] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At big DZ's with huge grassy landing areas and steady winds, predeclared landing directions work great.

At DZ's with small, linear landing areas and frequent (and strong) wind shifts, first person down works well.


That was confusing to me.

With huge grassy landing areas there would be more options for landing direction regardless of the winds.

Small, linear landing areas would seemingly present fewer options on direction.



In reply to:
In both cases all jumpers MUST be able to see what direction others are landing and take appropriate action to avoid landing pattern conflicts.

The discussion seems to center around who is creating the conflicts. The answer is simple...the FMD. The answer is simple - eliminate the FMD rule, reduce conflicts.

Think. The FMD is usually an experienced skydiver. Who is behind him? The less-experienced. When the FMD creates the conflict, I for the life of me, cannot understand how one can expect the less-experienced to cover for him to overcome the problem he created.
It is unreasonable to expect that.

IMHO, the FMD rule is anarchy at its best.


Kami-kaze  (C 34855)

Nov 16, 2008, 8:51 AM
Post #46 of 61 (661 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

The conflict is created in ones brain, and by the value it adhere to.
Both systems work only if you make them work.
I can see in a predetermined case if someone lands different, it's only going to be one off, the the rest can go predetermind. You don't need much brain for that...but then people coming from a dz that does no downwinders, or people who has dislike about it go to a different dz like Eloy, they are a risk, and then there wil be talk about how dangerous that dz is, but actually they just haven't got the skill that is really important and downsize their canopy.
A dz like that should make efforts so that people can practise crosswind and downwind when suitable oppotunity arise. I think people can start practising this from low jump numbers.
In a FMD the confusion created by the one who doesn't follow this rule can become kaos , so we need a rule what to do in this situation.
1) Still follow the FMD....maybe someone has only seen the change of direction and thinks that's the correct direction?
2) Follow the change of direction and make that the post-set derection and everyone follows?
I think that may be the issue that needs to be discussed.
what do you reckon?


denete  (B 33880)

Nov 16, 2008, 9:10 AM
Post #47 of 61 (654 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMHO, the FMD rule is anarchy at its best.

The blind leading the naked.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 16, 2008, 3:26 PM
Post #48 of 61 (622 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

>Small, linear landing areas would seemingly present fewer options on direction.

Correct. There are basically only two; it's pretty obvious what's happening there.

>The answer is simple...the FMD. The answer is simple - eliminate the FMD rule,
>reduce conflicts.

If eliminating the first man down rule eliminated the first man down, that might make sense. But it doesn't.

>When the FMD creates the conflict, I for the life of me, cannot understand how one
>can expect the less-experienced to cover for him to overcome the problem he
>created.

Correct. And that is true whether the FMD rule is there or not. You cannot, under any circumstances, land against traffic, even if you "are in the right" because you're following the predeclared pattern (or the first man down for that matter.)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 16, 2008, 8:25 PM
Post #49 of 61 (588 views)
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Re: [Kami-kaze] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...but actually they just haven't got the skill that is really important and downsize their canopy.

what do you reckon?

I reckon that one should recognize that not all jumpers have the same skill levels and they we all should make way for the less-experienced.

The FMD rule as depicted here for Eloy doesn't do that. In fact, it does the opposite. If they were at all concerned about the youngsters, they would have the hot rods landing out away from the designated pattern when they wanted to be "cool".

How any of this relates to skill vs downsizing I don't know where you're coming from on this wrto FMD.


strop45  (D 957)

Nov 16, 2008, 8:55 PM
Post #50 of 61 (575 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me that the main problem with the FMD "rule" is that it doesn't give any guidance on the landing pattern. If it is used with a bunch of other rules e.g. left/right hand pattern, no turns >90 degrees, no spiraling below 1000', first man down must land into wind, then maybe, just maybe it might be OK as it would be reasonably clear who was going to be the first man down and which direction they were planning to land.

Overall it seems like a good idea that has gone past its use-by-date.

Stay safe


Kami-kaze  (C 34855)

Nov 17, 2008, 4:43 AM
Post #51 of 61 (588 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...but actually they just haven't got the skill that is really important and downsize their canopy.

what do you reckon?

I reckon that one should recognize that not all jumpers have the same skill levels and they we all should make way for the less-experienced.

The FMD rule as depicted here for Eloy doesn't do that. In fact, it does the opposite. If they were at all concerned about the youngsters, they would have the hot rods landing out away from the designated pattern when they wanted to be "cool".

How any of this relates to skill vs downsizing I don't know where you're coming from on this wrto FMD.

I asked what you reckon about the confusion when FMD goes apeshit.
what action to take.
Like Bill said we can't have people going in all directions.
As I said, people have pre-determined set of values and that creates a problem to understand others.
I'll restate that I don't have a problem with FMD. I don't see why being a less experienced skydiver would have it. For me, as a less experienced skydiver myself, "The confusion when someone breaks this rule" overloads by brain. The security here is everyone is going the same way. The skill level is relevant here because if you have it then downwinders are not a big deal. So I asked what is the common sense upper limit for the first man to do downwinders. Then there are not so much dislikes about FMD.
I see this is a composite problem. The newbies and experienced who doesn't like downwinders are combining the problem with FMD. And then people started talking about the problems they have that is associated with piloting, but it is not the problem really with these two landing systems. One cannot fly with targt fixation, and one has to look up, down and around all over...and one has to do that from the beginning. Good habits come early. It doesn't come from being in the sport for a long time and surviving. That might just be luck because you can get yourslf killed for doing everything right.
Eloy has a student landing area. You don't have to be a student to land there. Some people actually seem to be embarrased or explain themselves to land there which is strange. One doesn't have to impress the others by landing in the main area or near the packing shed. You can land on the desert side. There is clearly a left and right hand approach established there.
cheers
I hope you understand my Jynglish.
Smile


virgin-burner

Nov 17, 2008, 6:50 AM
Post #52 of 61 (569 views)
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Re: [Nigel] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

we have it at our dropzone, and i like it much better than pre-planned. but i jump at a place with often changing, and often stronger winds.

but it needs disciplined and educated skydivers. obviously that's not the case everywhere..

still there are idiots that make downwinders. but they get a talking to by the chief in service.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 17, 2008, 8:21 AM
Post #53 of 61 (550 views)
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Re: [tetra316] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personally I do not like following the first man down. People, even very experienced jumpers, make mistakes and land the wrong way. I cannot see any advantage of the FMD rule. I the winds are going to be changing that dramatically from the time you take off to the time you land then you probably should not be jumping.
You can land a canopy in any direction of final safely.
Its just a question of piloting.

If I go for fun in higher winds I would not go down wind, but rather 45-90 degrees side wind than turning into the wind on flare, but this don't come without notice of "do not follow me...."

I have seen the other side. Taking off with a big plan of landing, than most of the load(10+) have not realized that winds have changed and got stronger...then they got more fun or at least we did on the groundCrazy


tetra316  (D 26945)

Nov 17, 2008, 8:53 AM
Post #54 of 61 (542 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Personally I do not like following the first man down. People, even very experienced jumpers, make mistakes and land the wrong way. I cannot see any advantage of the FMD rule. I the winds are going to be changing that dramatically from the time you take off to the time you land then you probably should not be jumping.

If I go for fun in higher winds I would not go down wind, but rather 45-90 degrees side wind than turning into the wind on flare, but this don't come without notice of "do not follow me...."

Not sure what you are saying but a lot of places with smaller landing areas you are required to land in one direction only, be it north or south or whatever. Carving and turning and flaring 45-90 degrees right before touchdown are not allowed or will get you a talking to.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 17, 2008, 9:11 AM
Post #55 of 61 (539 views)
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Re: [tetra316] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Carving and turning and flaring 45-90 degrees right before touchdown are not allowed or will get you a talking to.
If winds are high that would be less than 15m depending on WL.

Is coming downwind as a first man allowed or will get you a talking to. ?


tetra316  (D 26945)

Nov 17, 2008, 9:37 AM
Post #56 of 61 (529 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Carving and turning and flaring 45-90 degrees right before touchdown are not allowed or will get you a talking to.
If winds are high that would be less than 15m depending on WL.

Is coming downwind as a first man allowed or will get you a talking to. ?

If you set up intentionally downwind then you had better be landing in the high performance landing area and not the main or you will hear about it. Personally I see no problem with landing downwind. I used to do it a lot and plan on doing it more. However, for the safety off all involved you should be landing into the wind if you are using the FMD rule and landing in the main area.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Nov 17, 2008, 9:52 AM
Post #57 of 61 (526 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How can *everyone* create vertical separation if *everyone* is hanging in brakes? Again, probably inexperience talking but doesn't that mean we're all just hanging up there in the order we were before, separated by the same vertical distance?

Yup, nothing more fun than a bunch of boats hanging in brakes trying to create separation and forcing everyone above them to crush up.

On the other extreme - nothing like a bunch of swoopers hanging in brakes trying to ensure they have 1000 ft of separation from the guy below them. If everyone on a full Otter does this, then we need the last person opening at 23K.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 17, 2008, 10:39 AM
Post #58 of 61 (508 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
then we need the last person opening at 23K.

Helluva X-country ride, eh?

Enough time for a six-pack or two.
LaughLaugh


parachutist  (D 25468)

Nov 17, 2008, 11:01 AM
Post #59 of 61 (499 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] "First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And how much time is required to discern the landing direction of all the people in front of you in the pattern, checking to see if you still have a viable out *and* scanning for canopies around you? Some of the more experienced people may be able to do this in their sleep but I sure as hell can't calculate that much stuff *reliably* on *every* jump.
Some are taught during the first jump course that all of these things must be done on every jump. No you can't necessarily see everyone who landed before you, but you can pick up on most of them.

In reply to:
There are plenty more people at my DZ resulting in the first several people being in the pattern at the same time, well below 2000ft.
They should be able to stagger that enough to get the pattern established

In reply to:
So, anyone with a large gap gets to choose which direction they're going to land? The students don't see anyone landing and then have to figure it out?
Yes. The low-timers should have no problem figuring out for themselves which way to land based on wind sock or DZ rules. Some DZ's don't even use radios from the start: teach the students how to figure this out from the start.

In reply to:
No. We're all in the loading area at the same time and everyone agrees which direction to land. It's shouted *loudly* in the loading area *and* on the plane. Anyone that doesn't land in the agreed direction is pulled aside by other jumpers and told to get their shit together.
It sounds very similar to FMD... when somebody screws it up, as they will with either rule, then yell at them. It happens with either rule: You can't get it through everyone's head on every jump.

In reply to:
How can *everyone* create vertical separation if *everyone* is hanging in brakes? Again, probably inexperience talking but doesn't that mean we're all just hanging up there in the order we were before, separated by the same vertical distance?
Very few people actually do, though. So if you go up with most groups these days you'll be one of only a couple or 3 who do. What if more people did hang in brakes and create the problem you're referring to, though? Then you use brakes to find your place in the mix. Smaller canopies head on down, middle range canopies let up a little and go for the middle of the pack, larger canopies stay up top, etc. Brakes slow everything down for everybody, which allows more time to do all the scanning and calculating that you mentioned earlier.

In reply to:
The FPD may be some amazing canopy pilot that knows the DZ like the back of their hand but what if they're not? The FPD only seems to grant flexibility, in reality it grants flexibility to the first person down *only*. For everyone else, it's pot luck.
The FPD should be aware it's his/her responsibility to set an appropriate pattern for everyone else. Much like spotting.. first person out of the plane is checking to make sure it's a good spot for everyone. Yes GPS is fabulous, but first person out should be verifying before exiting... that's another story though.

In reply to:
The FPD is at least partially decided by the exit order from the plane, so if there are 3 belly groups, all low jump numbers, they're all opening at 3.5k who's racing them to the ground to set the landing pattern right?
I've seen what you're talking about. It shouldn't be a race to the ground. If they know they're going to be slow descending, they can use the brakes, enjoy the view from 3k and plan their descent instead of jumping into rushed decision-making

In reply to:
I'm sure a lot of my ranting is born out of my inexperience
It's good to hear your side of the story and see what's concerning you, so I'm glad you wrote back


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Nov 19, 2008, 5:06 AM
Post #60 of 61 (406 views)
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Re: [murps2000] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe he figured correctly but just differently than you or I might. If I'm under canopy at DZ where FMD is the rule, the first man lands downwind, and I don't want to, I'll land into the wind, too. But I'll land out and take my sweet time walking my tiny balls back to the packing area while I rethink my main canopy choice.Wink

There's testosterone dripping out of your ears. Please swallow, it might help.

Personally, I wouldn't even want to land a slow canopy like a Manta 280 downwind at 15 kts. 15 kts is about 28 kph or 17 mph - without even taking the canopy's own airspeed into account, which in this example should approximate something like an additional 5-7 m/s (or 10-13 kts or 18-25 kph or 11-16 mph). I don't swoop, can't run that fast and as for PLF - would you jump out of a car doing 50 kph (30 mph)?

Ball and brain size are not inversely proportional.


murps2000  (D 23114)

Nov 20, 2008, 10:06 PM
Post #61 of 61 (345 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Low Collision, landing confusion Elsinore Nov 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

There's testosterone dripping out of your ears. Please swallow, it might help.
Quote:

Well, there is, but it has nothing to do with skydiving. It comes from my job as a manly ironworker, building things out of metal... and brawn...Wink
Personally, I wouldn't even want to land a slow canopy like a Manta 280 downwind at 15 kts. 15 kts is about 28 kph or 17 mph - without even taking the canopy's own airspeed into account, which in this example should approximate something like an additional 5-7 m/s (or 10-13 kts or 18-25 kph or 11-16 mph). I don't swoop, can't run that fast and as for PLF - would you jump out of a car doing 50 kph (30 mph)?
Quote:


No I wouldn't jump out of a car at 30 mph, but I wouldn't PLF a downwinder. It was no 15kt wind, but because of a traffic avoidance move I once ended up doing a braked approach at 2.0 WL when I followed a FMD downwind at a boogie. I was running like Forrest Gump before my feet touched the ground, but don't take it as advice. I felt fit enough do it at the time, the terrain permitted it, and I believe after unloading a bit my canopy continued to support some of my weight until I slowed down. I'm not sure I could handle it now at my level of currency. That's why I'll use a bigger canopy the next time I skydive and go to a DZ at low elevation. You never know, I might have to land downwind.


(This post was edited by murps2000 on Nov 20, 2008, 10:37 PM)



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