Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Not turning on your AAD

 

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AndyBoyd  (D 16728)

Nov 7, 2008, 11:15 AM
Post #26 of 61 (1736 views)
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Re: [flyhi] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

If we have low clouds and are doing hop n pops, I leave my Cypres off. Can't see any reason to have it on, and the downside is obvious.


ghost47  (D License)

Nov 7, 2008, 11:33 AM
Post #27 of 61 (1725 views)
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Re: [AndyBoyd] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If we have low clouds and are doing hop n pops, I leave my Cypres off. Can't see any reason to have it on, and the downside is obvious.
What if you get knocked unconscious on the jump out? Wouldn't that be a time when you'd want the AAD on? The cons may be still outweigh the pros, but that does seem like something an AAD would always help with.


AndyBoyd  (D 16728)

Nov 7, 2008, 12:03 PM
Post #28 of 61 (1717 views)
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Re: [ghost47] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

If someone is so uncoordinated that getting knocked unconscious on the way out the door on a hop n pop is a serious possibility, that person has no business skydiving in the first place.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Nov 7, 2008, 5:16 PM
Post #29 of 61 (1680 views)
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Re: [flyhi] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems that you don't consider your AAD as a back up device but maybe as a psychological crutch...or am I wrong ?
An AAD is worn and switched on and you forget about it. Last year I lent my Vigil II for 2-3 months during the Summer to a friend of mine because I calculated that he needed it more than me for personal reason. I have made 1700 jumps without an AAD then jumping without one is OK. As I use to say : << The main parachute has no idea what is an AAD and will open anyway >>. In other word : << Don't rely on it >> since it can fail.
When you switch it on, make sure to do it at the very location where you will land. Years ago a jumper from LA decided to swith on her AAD at home. Since LA is about at 50 feet above sea level the AAD took that as the zero reference altitude. Unfortunately she was jumping at Perris Valley which is at 1450 feet above sea level and more unfortunately she got problems and never made it thru. The ground at Perris being at 1450 feet was therefore higher than the firing altitude of 800 feet or 890 feet respectively for the Cypres and the Vigil set up in Expert or PRO mode.
Cypres: 750 + 50 = 800, Vigil : 840 + 50 = 890.
When jumping at a place of an elevation different than where you take off always use the elevation of the place you land as a zero. Then set up you altimeter and AAD accordingly.
EG 1: take off location elevation: 300 feet ASL; landing location elevation: 1000 feet ASL ::: set up altimeter and AAD at minus 700 feet (300 - 1000 = -700) where you take off. After take off when the airplane is at a 1000 feet ASL your altimeter will indicate zero and you will be at the same level than the landing location ground.

EG 2: take off location elevation: 1200 feet ASL; landing location elevation:400 feet ASL:::set up your altimeter and AAD at plus 800 feet (1200 - 400 = +800) where you take off. When you will land your altimeter will indicate zero since your are now 800 below the ground of the place where you took off. If in doubt ask a senior instructor.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 7, 2008, 9:49 PM
Post #30 of 61 (1655 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a third American made AAD called the FXE...
FXC...had one, came on my used 1st generation Wonderdog.

Bought the rig in Santee, early 80's for a grand, and sold the FXC to a buddy the next day for 600.00.

Buddy was killed in a car crash a couple years later and his brother gave me his rig...sold the FXC again for 600.00...



STILL don't have an AAD, but may finally bite the bullet...gotta have one for some of the European DZ's on my up comin' across the pond travel itinerary. Wink


mircan  (D 32291)

Nov 8, 2008, 3:38 AM
Post #31 of 61 (1640 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There was a Russian one called the KAP 3
I jumped with this baby when I was starting. It is still used at some DZs around here. You could set it to both time and altitude (at least the one marked P). 5 seconds time or hard deck altitude which ever comes first.

There were a couple of saves. Good. But the downside was that on occasion, some stupid student would develop a habit of letting himself low enough and waiting for the AAD to fire. Multiple times.

I also had this thing fire at will, and it was in helicopter like yours. Opened my main as well as two others of my beginner friends that sat next to me.
It was my second ride down with the aircraft... Ever. Unsure


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 8, 2008, 6:59 AM
Post #32 of 61 (1629 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
some feel a small reserve, without proper toggle control,,, might land them somewhere troublesome,, and it might hurt them when it happens,,,but it also might NOT.. hell. i'd feel it's about 50-50...
A reserve with it's toggles stowed and depending on wind speed, may have some forward speed.. but if the dz is sizable, and your angels are on the job,,, you could do just fine...

TSO testing require they meet this standard.

Sparky



AS8015B

4.3.7 Rate of Descent Tests, All Types: There shall be not less than 6 drops, with an individual and/or dummy in each harness weighing not less than the maximum operating weight4. The average rate of descent shall not exceed 24 ft/s (7.3 m/s), and the total velocity shall not exceed 36 ft/s (11.0 m/s), in an unaltered post deployment configuration, corrected to standard sea level altitude conditions. The rate of descent measurement shall be taken over a minimum interval of 100 ft (30.5 m). These tests
may be combined with other tests in this section.



DeNReN  (B 5642)

Nov 8, 2008, 7:07 AM
Post #33 of 61 (1627 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
STILL don't have an AAD, but may finally bite the bullet...gotta have one for some of the European DZ's on my up comin' across the pond travel itinerary.

I'll sell ya a FXC for $600 Wink


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Nov 8, 2008, 2:51 PM
Post #34 of 61 (1585 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
4.3.7 Rate of Descent Tests, All Types: There shall be not less than 6 drops, with an individual and/or dummy in each harness weighing not less than the maximum operating weight4. The average rate of descent shall not exceed 24 ft/s (7.3 m/s), and the total velocity shall not exceed 36 ft/s (11.0 m/s), in an unaltered post deployment configuration,

In other words, with the brakes stowed the reserve will be going no faster than you would after stepping off a second story roof (20 feet).

While usually not enough to kill people that's not going to be pleasant.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 9, 2008, 12:52 AM
Post #35 of 61 (1560 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
4.3.7 Rate of Descent Tests, All Types: There shall be not less than 6 drops, with an individual and/or dummy in each harness weighing not less than the maximum operating weight4. The average rate of descent shall not exceed 24 ft/s (7.3 m/s), and the total velocity shall not exceed 36 ft/s (11.0 m/s), in an unaltered post deployment configuration,

In other words, with the brakes stowed the reserve will be going no faster than you would after stepping off a second story roof (20 feet).

While usually not enough to kill people that's not going to be pleasant.

You are dealing with decent rate and forward speed. That makes it better than flying at full glide or coming straight down. You are right is not pleasant but if you end up that situation you are not sports jumping; you are trying to save your life. And it helps if you jump a reserve that is built for your body weight.Tongue

Hell, cheepos would come down at around 24 fps and we could sometimes stand them up. Of course I was 40 pounds lighter and 30 year younger.

Sparky


SStewart  (D 10405)

Nov 9, 2008, 2:18 AM
Post #36 of 61 (1558 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

40 pounds?


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 9, 2008, 7:46 AM
Post #37 of 61 (1534 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
40 pounds?


They say there is a pork-chop in every bottle of Bud...must be a whole PORK ROAST in ever bottle of Gray Goose! SlySlySly


ASTKU  (D License)

Nov 10, 2008, 7:27 AM
Post #38 of 61 (1420 views)
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Re: [AndyBoyd] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If we have low clouds and are doing hop n pops, I leave my Cypres off. Can't see any reason to have it on, and the downside is obvious.

If you don't mind, What are the downsides??


Blink  (C 3275)

Nov 10, 2008, 8:37 AM
Post #39 of 61 (1402 views)
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Re: [ASTKU] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

If he was doing a multiple revolution turn above 1000' for his swoop, he could activate his Cypres, causing a two-out, etc, etc.


ASTKU  (D License)

Nov 10, 2008, 8:58 AM
Post #40 of 61 (1394 views)
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Re: [Blink] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If he was doing a multiple revolution turn above 1000' for his swoop, he could activate his Cypres, causing a two-out, etc, etc.


What does that have to do with Clouds???


sparkie  (D License)

Nov 10, 2008, 9:02 AM
Post #41 of 61 (1395 views)
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Re: [ASTKU] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
How do you feel about cutting away at 1000'?


Not a preferable situation that I would like to be in....Its do-able though

@ 110 jumps you have only half a clue what you are doing (I had at least) so I'd have to call BS on that statement. No disrespect intended though.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 10, 2008, 10:32 AM
Post #42 of 61 (1353 views)
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Re: [ASTKU] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What does that have to do with Clouds???
Clouds are defining exit altitude. If you jump from 800m with a really slow opening canopy....


Blink  (C 3275)

Nov 10, 2008, 10:51 AM
Post #43 of 61 (1346 views)
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Re: [ASTKU] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not a preferable situation that I would like to be in....Its do-able though

If it's not a preferable situation, why would you consider putting youself in that situation in the first place. It's just plane stupid to jump a balloon when you're pulling at 2200', and having a fully inflated canopy at 1300'.

I'm not familiar with the USPA rules, but what are the minimum opening altitudes?

Sit back, take a breath and calm down.


ASTKU  (D License)

Nov 10, 2008, 1:40 PM
Post #44 of 61 (1298 views)
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Re: [Blink] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If it's not a preferable situation, why would you consider putting youself in that situation in the first place.

Uhhhh. Because its shit loads of fun. Ive done almost that same scenerio twice and had plans to do it last weekend (winds)..... In your 3xx jumps you havn't done a balloon jump??



In reply to:
Sit back, take a breath and calm down.

I just don't get this statement. Calm down? What are you referring to??


AndyBoyd  (D 16728)

Nov 10, 2008, 1:57 PM
Post #45 of 61 (1297 views)
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Re: [Blink] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If he was doing a multiple revolution turn above 1000' for his swoop, he could activate his Cypres, causing a two-out, etc, etc.

Not on my Spectre 150. Smile If I end up doing a hop n pop from 2,000 or maybe a little below that because of a low ceiling (I know, not the greatest idea), I do not want my Cypres getting anywhere near activation altitude if I snivel for a while. In that situation, I feel like I am safer with the Cypres off. It is arguable that I shouldn't be doing hop n pops that low in the first place. But, in response to the OP, a low hop n pop with a potentially slow opening canopy is a situation where I do jump with the AAD off.


Blink  (C 3275)

Nov 10, 2008, 3:06 PM
Post #46 of 61 (1276 views)
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Re: [ASTKU] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure have, but I've always had a fully functioning canopy by 2500'.

I am not saying don't do balloon jumps, that woulds be hypocritical, and just plain mean, becaue they are a load of fun! But instead of waiting until 2200' to pull, knowing your canopy is going to snivel for ~1000' doesn't sound like fun to me. I'd ask the balloonist for 500' extra or just do a clear and pull.

Let me ask you another question. What is your "hard deck"? In other words, at what point do you say, alright, enough fooling with these linetwists, this baglock, these broken lines, etc, and cut-away?


(This post was edited by Blink on Nov 10, 2008, 3:10 PM)


ASTKU  (D License)

Nov 10, 2008, 3:30 PM
Post #47 of 61 (1262 views)
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Re: [Blink] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

The fucking balloon would only go to 3000' I wanted more but thats all we could get. The air was too thin to go any higher.... Im not just going to hop n pop when I am paying $70 bucks a jump.

Post edited. Your one warning. No PA's.


(This post was edited by billvon on Nov 10, 2008, 5:42 PM)


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Nov 10, 2008, 4:01 PM
Post #48 of 61 (1250 views)
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Re: [Blink] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's just plane stupid to jump a balloon when you're pulling at 2200', and having a fully inflated canopy at 1300'.
During bigway events, some of us are required to open at 2500'. Which means, some of us pull at 2500' and some have fully inflated canopies as low as 1500'. I try to pull just barely before 2500' so that I'm already in a deployment sequence at 2500', and have a fully inflated canopy between 2000-2500' with my reasonably-brisk-opening Sabre, though there were at least a few jumps where Altitrack tells me I'm fully inflated slightly below 2000' (and still higher than half of the canopies at that particular jump! And yes, they were all the outers that broke off at the same time as I did.) It is something that bigway events sometimes have to deal with, when you're an outer -- there's only so much airspace to cover even in a good track, after a 100way and bigger formation, especially if the bigway only has time to complete from only 14000 to 16000 feet. So 6-7Kfeet breakoffs with outers doing long-distance tracking towards 2500 feet pulls resulting in low deployments, very little time for EP -- at these pull altitudes there's no time to troubleshoot a high speed, so EP's are typically immediate.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Nov 10, 2008, 4:12 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 10, 2008, 4:12 PM
Post #49 of 61 (1238 views)
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Re: [Blink] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If it's not a preferable situation, why would you consider putting youself in that situation in the first place. It's just plane stupid to jump a balloon when you're pulling at 2200', and having a fully inflated canopy at 1300'.

I'm not familiar with the USPA rules, but what are the minimum opening altitudes?

Minimum opening altitudes vary by license. C and D recommended minimum container openings are 2000 feet. I'm not a big fan of pushing minimums but the couple of times I have, I've been in the saddle between 1500 and 1200 feet.

No "rules" broken. Not optimum safety but most certainly not the end of the world. Crazy


tetra316  (D 26945)

Nov 11, 2008, 10:05 AM
Post #50 of 61 (1159 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Not turning on your AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It's just plane stupid to jump a balloon when you're pulling at 2200', and having a fully inflated canopy at 1300'.
During bigway events, some of us are required to open at 2500'. Which means, some of us pull at 2500' and some have fully inflated canopies as low as 1500'. I try to pull just barely before 2500' so that I'm already in a deployment sequence at 2500', and have a fully inflated canopy between 2000-2500' with my reasonably-brisk-opening Sabre, though there were at least a few jumps where Altitrack tells me I'm fully inflated slightly below 2000' (and still higher than half of the canopies at that particular jump! And yes, they were all the outers that broke off at the same time as I did.) It is something that bigway events sometimes have to deal with, when you're an outer -- there's only so much airspace to cover even in a good track, after a 100way and bigger formation, especially if the bigway only has time to complete from only 14000 to 16000 feet. So 6-7Kfeet breakoffs with outers doing long-distance tracking towards 2500 feet pulls resulting in low deployments, very little time for EP -- at these pull altitudes there's no time to troubleshoot a high speed, so EP's are typically immediate.

Very true. I was typically open at 1700 to 2000 during the big ways in Perris. I don't quite understand the fear of opening lower than 3000. I have many, many hop and pops from 2000 to 2500 feet. A few even under 2k. The joys of cessna dzs. You just have to be aware that yes you do have a lot less time for EP's and realize that you do not have time to try and fix something if you get a mal. You cutaway immediately.


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