Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Relative Work:
How do you start a 4way team

 


buff  (D 30567)

Aug 25, 2008, 10:43 PM
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How do you start a 4way team Can't Post

if you are at an RW 182 dropzone? I mean it really makes it tough on the vidiot if he has to ride the strut up. So if the 182 is where it all started and that's the only thing available, how do you compete given no video slot and way different exits than on the turbines.


ElJosh  (A 51040)

Aug 25, 2008, 11:51 PM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Duh...drive to Dallas or just move back to the mother land aka The Grand Republic of Texas.

Damn that just brought a tear to my eye.

Beer! all around damn it!

~El Josh aka Ruby


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 26, 2008, 8:06 AM
Post #3 of 46 (3355 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

How you start a 4 way team at a 182 DZ - get 4 people and start jumping together.

How do you compete when you're at a 182 DZ - get those 4 people, a cameraman and drive to where the competition is.

(World Meet recently used Porters, which are a lot closer to Cessna 182/206es than Otters.)


blade

Aug 26, 2008, 8:24 AM
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Re: [billvon] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

We even train all year long with 2 complete 4way teams in a porter ... and THAT is already a performance !

Wink


skydance1954  (D 18460)

Aug 26, 2008, 1:12 PM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in the day - same problem. Home DZs had 182s and 180s, but the Nationals were usually out of Otters. Sometimes we had Beech 19s, DC-3s and once a Caribou. How do you train for a ramp when you've never jumped one?

You don't. You do the best you can when you get there.

Bill said it right. You find three people, train out of the 182, using the old style exits for the various points, and debrief the best you can.

Get to the meet a few days early. Hell, if you can swing it, get there a week early and train every day before the meet. Complete with video and find a coach. Retrain your exits and correct as many of your by now built in bad habits as you can before the meet starts. Make your training plan to do most of your training dives the week before the meet. If you plan to do 100 training dives, do 50 the last week.

Is it optimal? No. Does it kinda suck? Yes. But it's either that, or move to a DZ that has an aircraft that closely mimics the one you'll compete out of.

Let me know what you decide.


wildfan75  (D 29536)

Aug 26, 2008, 1:22 PM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump at a 182 dz and will finish my second year of competing this weekend.

My team went into our first meet last year having exactly two practice jumps out of an Otter. When we got to the meet, we worked with an experienced 4 way competitor who jumps at an Otter dz (Thanks Bill (Rehmwa)!!!), and he went through what each person needs to be doing. We launched a lot of meekers that meet, and didn't do too shabby.

After each competition, get a copy of the video and sit down with the most experienced 4 way or competition skydiver you can get and have them debrief with you. You'll learn a crap load on a debrief and will give your team goals for the next meet.

Don't forget to have fun!


darkwing  (D 4164)

Aug 26, 2008, 3:03 PM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Video isn't the point, skydiving is. Just jump. Get some video when you can. Don't worry. A long time ago I was on a good team that jumped C-182 all the time. We did OK, for the time. Had fun too.


domsdad  (D 27932)

Aug 26, 2008, 4:01 PM
Post #8 of 46 (3260 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

As for helping the exit training. Mike has the right idea. I want to add too that, that the DZ might let you do exit training which is exits from 6000'. Turn the first page only, get to your packers quick if you don't have second rigs and do a quick video review rather than a full blown debrief. The idea is to turn as many exits as possible and all your concentrating on is the exit.


siddacious  (C 37735)

Aug 28, 2008, 12:30 AM
Post #9 of 46 (3177 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

As people are saying, video quite valuable, though not a necessity. The fun (and hard) part is the skydiving itself, and depending on (and possibly because of) your commitment, the team dynamics.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Aug 28, 2008, 5:33 AM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

first of all.......

take ALL the money you HAVE..
put it in a big pile,
and KISS it Good-Bye!!!!!!!!


hahahahahah...

truth is. if you have committed and dedicated teammates, and can get together , often,
then just share a bunch of 4 way jumps.
working with personalites that mesh, will result in greater performances and growth, than will
simply finding the BEST CrazyShockedTongueUnsure . jumpers you can...

have fun stay safe

jmy


MajorDad  (D 579)

Aug 28, 2008, 7:58 AM
Post #11 of 46 (3140 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Also consider working in some training camps at locations such as Eloy and Perris where they have both tunnels and the lift.

Make sure the team goals of the 4 members are compatable in terms of time/cash committments and the expectations are compatable and realistic.

Blue ones and good luck!


Beer  (C 37279)

Aug 30, 2008, 6:34 PM
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Re: [MajorDad] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Check here
http://www.dropzone.com/...ive_Work/index.shtml

There are some good articles. There are a few of us talking about starting something next season. We have a few ideas for a fourth, but nothing set yet.

I'm thinking of taking the advice of one of the articles and writing a contract to be signed by all members. Setting baseline rules and commitments to the team. If you have people not willing to dedicate the time or some who see it more as a loose fun thing while others want the team to be serious competitors, there are going to be major issues. Also how would it be to have someone decide part way thru the season that they really can't commit financially to the training and now a couple weeks before a competition you need to find a new team member with skills to match the rest of the team.

I think I need to get together soon so we can get ideas together, see what everyone is willing to commit to so we can all be ready for next season..

Also see who is willing to put more than one season into it. It will take more than one season to be decent.


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Aug 31, 2008, 6:01 PM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll start by saying that I haven't been forced to do team training from a cessna... but I know what it's like to not have the same resources as your fellow competitors. Don't worry about it... do what you can with what you have and you'll still come out ahead.

My last team was lucky enough to have an otter at the DZ (for the last 4 months or so of the season... before that it was a casa... an even more different exit than a cessna!). Problem was, half the time we couldn't fly it. We spent a lot of sunny mornings waiting for people to show up and a lot of sunny afternoons being frustrated because we couldn't fill the plane enough to fly. Bizarrely, we had discussed at the time that it would have been nice to have a 182 there for backup, because if nobody else showed up, we could still fly it!

Our team, with almost zero coaching, very limited tunnel time, and about 150 jumps together took int 6th at the nationals in '06. Every team that beat us had a whole lot more resources... 2 airforce teams with goverment money and incredible amounts of tunnel time, 2 teams from chicago, and 1 team from the ranch. And we beat a lot of AF and big-time-DZ teams too.

Get 3 people and do what you can. If you've got a turbine DZ that you can get two a few times through the season for some training camps, do it. Maximize it by training hard during the boogies! I personally get more satisfaction from getting in 20 - 25 4-way jumps over labour day weekend than doing "fun stuff" and getting hammered. If you can, definately show up early to nationals and jump like hell for a few days (take 1 day off before the competition to relax, or at least go easy and do some bigways or something, so you're rested).

the lack of video sucks, but you'll still learn more doing 4-way than not, as long as the members can keep the egos in check. The exits aren't as different as you think... just make sure you're using a continuity plan that's compatable with a left-handed door.


domsdad  (D 27932)

Sep 3, 2008, 4:14 PM
Post #14 of 46 (2935 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Even though your exits aren't the same as an otter and your limited to a few formations, remember you still need to properly place the formation to the relative wind regardless of the door, and flying on the hill. So it's still learning to fly together as a group.


Deisel  (D 31661)

Sep 4, 2008, 3:26 PM
Post #15 of 46 (2864 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone know of any literature concerning 4-way? How does a self taught team go about learning the details of the different positions, blocks, exits, etc?


KathleenL  (C 37482)

Sep 4, 2008, 5:29 PM
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Re: [Deisel] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Check out www.teamfastrax.com/divepool.aspx

It has all of the randoms and blocks and they are color coded representing the positions.
You can click on the blocks and they will go in motion to show you how to perform the block.

This is a great start. It does not show exits though.


bliston  (D 23040)

Sep 4, 2008, 8:10 PM
Post #17 of 46 (2846 views)
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Re: [Deisel] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.collegeskydiving.com/tips-from-the-pros/relative-work/6-4-way-basics


P-dro

Sep 5, 2008, 3:52 AM
Post #18 of 46 (2822 views)
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Re: [bliston] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.collegeskydiving.com/...-work/6-4-way-basics


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 5, 2008, 6:22 AM
Post #19 of 46 (2812 views)
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Re: [KathleenL] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Check out www.teamfastrax.com/divepool.aspx

It has all of the randoms and blocks and they are color coded representing the positions.
You can click on the blocks and they will go in motion to show you how to perform the block.

This is a great start. It does not show exits though.

I'll take a look, but they also have short videos of the blocks and I think exits are in there.

They definitely have pictures of the door jams. Pay special attention to the postures of the OC (extreme anticipation of the hip presentation - it REALLY helped me) and the Tail (look how low and out he typically sits in the jam). Both show great OC and Tail habits for exits.


keithbar  (A 14048)

Sep 19, 2008, 8:53 PM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

how do you start a 4 way team? hmmmm.. i guess 1st off you find 3 other fat guys that can fall at 130 on their belly. then you go out and rock a few hundred jumps out of what ever and where ever you can


buff  (D 30567)

Sep 28, 2008, 7:57 AM
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Re: [keithbar] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to all for the replys. Be on the lookout for the up & comming Team Thursday Nite Chicken Strip Buffet.

Rumor has it that they are launching Meekers out of the 182 already.Pirate


mangledspoon  (D License)

Apr 7, 2009, 12:30 AM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you mean no video slot?? You could hang off the back of the strut, (hard for me to explain in words lol) or alternatively on the side of the plane with arms holding onto side of door & one foot on the wheel?? I jump this slot all the time when following tandems and it really is not that tough to hang on for ages if that is what required.


DanG  (D 22351)

Apr 7, 2009, 5:27 AM
Post #23 of 46 (2032 views)
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Re: [mangledspoon] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

How does the video guy get to 10,500ft when there's only room for four in the plane?


mangledspoon  (D License)

Apr 7, 2009, 5:36 AM
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Re: [DanG] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Every 182 I've ever been in fits 5.


DanG  (D 22351)

Apr 7, 2009, 5:44 AM
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Re: [mangledspoon] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

The OP seems to have one that fits 4, which I believe is more common.


mangledspoon  (D License)

Apr 7, 2009, 5:55 AM
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Re: [DanG] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Excuse my ignorance (or possibly location?) but what is OP?


DanG  (D 22351)

Apr 7, 2009, 6:03 AM
Post #27 of 46 (1172 views)
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Re: [mangledspoon] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

"Original Poster"


padu

Apr 7, 2009, 11:45 AM
Post #28 of 46 (1151 views)
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Re: [DanG] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

By looking at my logbook, I've jumped from 11 different 182's... all carrying 5... one back to the dashboard, one besides the door, one back to the pilot's seat and two on the back of the aircraft facing forward (sometimes facing backwards, in cases where the back wall is cut)

It's just anecdotal evidence, but 11 out of 11... I think it's a very good indicative.

But... if you jump on a DZ that has 1 180 and that 180 carries 4... then you're screwed.


DanG  (D 22351)

Apr 7, 2009, 11:49 AM
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Re: [padu] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I've only jumped 3 different 182's, but they've all only carried 4.

I believe to get it to five you generally need a widebody. I can't imagine squeezing five people into a standard 182, with only four you feel like a sardine once you've been spoiled by a larger plane.


padu

Apr 7, 2009, 11:52 AM
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Re: [DanG] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha,

I feel what you mean. My first 4-way training season (back in 96) was 100 jumps out of a 5 jumper configuration... all at 12000... 40 minutes plus ride to altitude...


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 7, 2009, 12:15 PM
Post #31 of 46 (1140 views)
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Re: [padu] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
By looking at my logbook, I've jumped from 11 different 182's... all carrying 5... one back to the dashboard, one besides the door, one back to the pilot's seat and two on the back of the aircraft facing forward (sometimes facing backwards, in cases where the back wall is cut)

It's just anecdotal evidence, but 11 out of 11... I think it's a very good indicative.

But... if you jump on a DZ that has 1 180 and that 180 carries 4... then you're screwed.

sounds like 206's, not 182s - even widebody, if it's 5 in a 182, you still are likely VERY uncomforable

but I'd still turn around one of those in the back and have them face rear too - just another straw in the weight balance - every little bit helps


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Apr 7, 2009, 1:56 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

1 Cessna 182 w/ IO550 and wingtip ext.
1 Fearless Pilot
5 Skydiving Clowns
All Clowns facing the back of the plane
20 mins to altitude
*Ding!
You are ready to skydive


DanG  (D 22351)

Apr 7, 2009, 2:01 PM
Post #33 of 46 (1121 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Does it come with a Clown sized shoehorn to get everyone in and out?Tongue


buff  (D 30567)

Apr 7, 2009, 2:23 PM
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Re: [DanG] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, I'm the OP here.

Over the winter, one Wing-X mod, an IO550, and a 3-bladed Hartzell in a narrow body 182. She is screaming to altitude now but we lack a seatbelt and one tiny vidiot.

Plus I think we lost someone to the darkside.Unsure


mangledspoon  (D License)

Apr 7, 2009, 4:02 PM
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Re: [DanG] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

I must have been spoilt with some very nice 182s!!
I have been in 5, they all fit 5 people, and all weren't that uncomfortable... personally I think an Islander is more uncomfortable (can't wait to get out of that thing!!)
Mind you one has a supercharger, and another had modifications to make it go faster (can't remember what, but takes 20 mins to get to 14,000)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 8, 2009, 7:15 AM
Post #36 of 46 (1077 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Plus I think we lost someone to the darkside.Unsure

I think it's great when someone tries CrW, but they can do both CrW and RW


padu

Apr 8, 2009, 12:19 PM
Post #37 of 46 (1048 views)
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Re: [mangledspoon] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

I have exactly 2 jumps out of a 206, and if I'm not mistaken (it's Brazil, we squeeze the last drop) it carried 6 or 7.

Regarding 180's and 182, for take off the drill was everybody on their knees facing forward and bringing the GC most forward possible. Then when at a safe altitude the pilot would give the ok for everybody to sit down.


(This post was edited by padu on Apr 8, 2009, 12:21 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 8, 2009, 12:31 PM
Post #38 of 46 (1043 views)
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Re: [padu] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have exactly 2 jumps out of a 206, and if I'm not mistaken (it's Brazil, we squeeze the last drop) it carried 6 or 7.

this is like the midget RW'er forum


padu

Apr 8, 2009, 12:36 PM
Post #39 of 46 (1042 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

HAHAHAHAAHA!

Good one.

Yes, we don't have many 6'+ in our population, but please don't insult! Cool


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Apr 15, 2009, 7:22 PM
Post #40 of 46 (969 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's great when someone tries CrW, but they can do both CrW and RW

Back in the day, we use to do CReW on every RW dive. That's what the space between 2,500 and 1,500 is for!!Cool

Oh, and by the way, what happens to the poor camera guy when his team falls apart?? That's right, what about the poor videit?? What does he do when Scotty hangs it up and Eric can't jump on the meet dates?? That's right, "I Don't Know" has become "I Don't Think So"!!

Any teams out there looking to help out a poor underprivleged human camera mount, give me a call. Wink


WLDMAN  (C 36026)

Apr 16, 2009, 7:33 AM
Post #41 of 46 (938 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey BS&F
I bet it was really difficult doing CrW under rounds.Tongue


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Apr 16, 2009, 10:02 AM
Post #42 of 46 (924 views)
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Re: [WLDMAN] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I bet it was really difficult doing CrW under rounds.Tongue

Only did it once, me and Gregg J. over the Oshkosh Air Show. T-10's at 800 ft. We learned about "oscillation" that day!!UnsureUnsure


vegasjoe  (D 14935)

Apr 19, 2009, 6:56 PM
Post #43 of 46 (878 views)
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Re: [billvon] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How you start a 4 way team?
Uhhhh, Ready, Set, Go!


rockstar_girl  (C 3389)

May 13, 2009, 10:58 PM
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Find a cute little girl with a camera, and cram her in the back of the plane. I don't fly camera, but have lots of experience squeezed into the back of a Cessna as a fifth. Or maybe a camera flying midget! Tongue


Orange1  (B 2638)

May 14, 2009, 4:55 AM
Post #45 of 46 (749 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

We were slightly more fortunate in that we had a 210 so we could take vidiot up with us, but we did have the issue of having to exit a Porter at Nationals. We were in the novice category so there wasn't HUGE pressure, but we only had 2 training days on the Porter before the comp started. We decided on nailing 2 exits (I can't remember what they were now, this was a couple of years ago) that we knew we could exit stable and then transition to the first point. Sure we lost a few seconds on each jump transitioning to the first point, but we still did very respectably vs. our competitors who had all trained on the Porter and most important of all... we had a blast!

PS I don't have a lot of jumps but most of them are in CessnasTongue the 182 that we use takes 4 jumpers, the 210 takes 5, the 206 & 207 take 6.


(This post was edited by Orange1 on May 14, 2009, 5:03 AM)


Jumpah  (D License)

May 14, 2009, 6:05 PM
Post #46 of 46 (693 views)
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Re: [buff] How do you start a 4way team [In reply to] Can't Post

Consider having one or two of your teammates get setup with camera gear. Sony HC-46 + Kenko .43 wide angle fish eye and a step-up ring will run you less than $400 new, or find a camera online for cheaper. Be sure to follow recommendations on jumping camera and get some training in their use.

You won't get the whole jump since it'll be on someone's head so the POV will be skewed to wherever they are, but you'll have some great memories to look back on years from now!



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