Dec 24, 2002, 8:39 AM
Post #26 of 187
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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One emergency procedure for all?
It depends upon the skydiver's experience level. Emergency procedures should change as you gain more experience. We like to keep things dirt simple for first-timers. We only teach them one response to all emergencies, because that is all the information most of them cna absorb in one sitting. And frankly, I wonder how much of it really sank in. Thank God (or Mike Furry?) that Mantas are so reliable! If first-timers are only doing static-line/IAD, then you can further simplify emergency procedures by deleting all the can't find handle/hard pull, etc emergency drills. They can wait until they start freefall before they need to know those emergency procedures. CSPA recommends teaching one set of emergency procedures during the first jump course (mostly IAD in Canada). Students learn some more emergency procedures when they start freefalling. They do a verbal review of emergency procedures as part of the testing for their Solo Certificate (around 10 jumps), then another review as part of the testing for their A Certificate (20 - 25 jumps). During each of those reviews we teach them a bit more and encourage them to put more thought into why they do procedure A vs. procedure B.
Dec 24, 2002, 8:47 AM
Post #27 of 187
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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If a demo from 2000' forces you to change your emergency procedures, then you are exiting too low.
Remember that most USPA/CSPA/BPA guidelines for exit and opening altitudes were written long before the current generation of tiny ZP canopies came into fashion. Heck, most of these guidelines were written before canopies had corners! These guidelines are minimums. Most modern skydivers wisely pull higher than the minimums
faulknerwn (D 17441)
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Dec 24, 2002, 10:20 AM
Post #28 of 187
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Re: [riggerrob] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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Didn't Mike McGowan nearly die 3-4 years ago because he cut away during a pilot chute in tow? If I remember correctly, his main risers entangled with the reserve lines and he only got partial inflation. If he hadn't landed in a tree he'd probably be dead.
As for the 2-canopy out study, the army used big canopies, but the PD study used all sorts of different, widely-varying canopies.
I'm definitely of the belief that I'd rather have 2 canopies out than none. I'll dump my reserve on a pc-in-tow and then deal with 2 canopies if need be. When I'm plummeting towards the earth at 120 mph I don't want to waste time cutting away something which isn't even out.
It is all a personal decision though. I'm a lot less afraid of landing with too much canopy out than too little. I just figure my odds are better with the second. W
Dec 24, 2002, 11:02 AM
Post #29 of 187
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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I'm a newbie so don't do what I tell you, but I had a PC in tow (due to a shrunken kill line). I went with option C, yanking the bridle. Everything worked out fine so I'm glad I did it, but if I was in the same situation again I'd cut away and pull the reserve I think. When it happened, I found myself grabbing the bridle before I even thought about it. It just happened. Reached back and pulled it in one motion. The whole thing from when I realized I had a problem to having an opening canopy probably took 3 seconds or less. I don't know where the instinct to yank the bridle came from, cause I never learned to do that. It just happened.
Dec 24, 2002, 11:27 AM
Post #30 of 187
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Re: [faulknerwn] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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Mike McGowan isn't the only one to nearly die from that scenario. A good friend of mine experienced the same thing. He's lucky ot be alive, but wasn't as lucky as Mike mCgowan. He broke his back, both his legs and completely shattered one ankle. If he had it to do over, he would have gone for the reserve first!
I'm completely with you on this one.
maura
billvon (D 16479)
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Dec 24, 2002, 11:59 AM
Post #31 of 187
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Re: [faulknerwn] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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Personally it depends on situation and gear for me. If I'm low, or I am jumping a rig with poor riser covers (like my CRW Talon) then I won't cut away, and take the risk of a dual deployment. If I have the altitude and a rig with good riser covers (like my Reflex) then I will try once to clear the main (by reaching back) then cut away and open the reserve. On my reflex, the main risers will not be 'popped' until the reserve risers are extracted, so I don't worry too much about riser entanglement. On my old Swift, riser entanglement would have been nearly guaranteed.
Dec 24, 2002, 12:09 PM
Post #32 of 187
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Re: [riggerrob] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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I know this gets a bit off topic, but I've always considered the fact that in a PC in tow (with a throw out), you're trailing about 9 feet of bridle over your head when you kick your reserve out (either before or after cutting away). Does the free-bag clear the trailing PC? Does the main pop out afterwords?...
That trailing bridle is creating drag. That drag may prompt a two-out after you put your reserve out. Now do we want cutaway-control of the main as it inflates or not? That's another discussion.
This, to me, is scary stuff, and another reason why I opt to jump a pull-out. In a true total mal on a pull-out, there is much less chance of the reserve being snagged by anything, as there is little or nothing there to snag. Also, there is less chance of the main snaking out after the reserve deploys (no pressure on the pin as there is nothing out causing drag). True, the pin could still slip out as the container walls relax, but I've played with it and even with an empty reserve tray, a properly sized loop seems to keep the main tray closed.
So, what does that tell us? Well, what I get from it is that there is a lot of freeky stuff that can happen if you're trailing ANYTHING behind you and you put a canopy out. As for cutting away first or second, I'm in favor of getting something over my head ASAP. The ground isn't getting any further away, ya know!
Dec 25, 2002, 9:23 AM
Post #34 of 187
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Re: [billvon] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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On my reflex, the main risers will not be 'popped' until the reserve risers are extracted, so I don't worry too much about riser entanglement. On my old Swift, riser entanglement would have been nearly guaranteed.
Dec 27, 2002, 5:30 PM
Post #39 of 187
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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I had a PC in tow on one of my malfunctions. I really didn't have time to think about what I was doing. After I threw out, I just laid there, wondering why I was having such a slow open. Then it hit me, I didn't have anything out. Or that's what I thought. I went straight to the silver handle. After opening shock, I now had two canopies out. I just waited till the main bounced off the reserve and cut it away. I don't advocate what I did, but it work for me at the time. I teach low timer jumpers that what ever they decided to do, do it early and don't deviate from their plan. It worked for me that time, and I hope if ever put in that situation again, I will once again make the right decision.
Jan 1, 2003, 5:39 AM
Post #40 of 187
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Re: [flyangel2] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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---------------------------------------- I had a PC in tow on one of my malfunctions. I really didn't have time to think about what I was doing. After I threw out, I just laid there, wondering why I was having such a slow open. ----------------------------------------- And there you are, wondering at 200 km/h with a whole planet aimed right at you...
1. Maybe the pilotchute landed in your burble 2. Maybe you didn't cock the pilotchute 3. Maybe there is a temporary locking pin 4. Maybe a pull-up cord 5. Maybe a bag-lock 6. Maybe Gremlins DO exist
Trouble is, by the time you find out you are back on terra firma. So there is not much point in differentiating on possible solutions. If you don't have the time to cut-away first then maybe you should pull 500ft higher If you don't have a rig that allows you to cut away first safely (i.e. where the main risers could block your reserve) then maybe you should see a rigger.
My €/$ 0,02
(which are not 'personally' aimed at flyangel2 who I only quote since it is an accurate description of the whole psychology of the situation at hand, which is basically "I pulled and keep falling down - what next?"... Been there done that and George G still owes me a T-shirt...)
Jan 2, 2003, 7:16 PM
Post #41 of 187
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Re: [Liemberg] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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1. Maybe the pilotchute landed in your burble 2. Maybe you didn't cock the pilotchute 3. Maybe there is a temporary locking pin 4. Maybe a pull-up cord 5. Maybe a bag-lock 6. Maybe Gremlins DO exist
Nope, none of those. I had a bungy PC and the bungy was too short. Because it was too short, the nylon and the netting met evenly. Hence, no air can catch, so the PC doesn't inflate . Learned my lesson on that one. I felt I pulled high enough to handle the situation, I just prefer the "go straight to the reserve handle" answer in this situation. Each person needs to make a personal choice on how to handle a PC in tow, which ever way you decide to do it, stick to that plan, don't change your mind mid stream
Jan 3, 2003, 1:30 AM
Post #42 of 187
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Re: [flyangel2] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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Each person needs to make a personal choice on how to handle a PC in tow, which ever way you decide to do it, stick to that plan, don't change your mind mid stream Partially agreed. Sticking to whatever plan you have is always better than revising it in freefall but it could be that you, other than the "I'm under nothing"-sensation, don't know what is going on (is my pack open? What is blocking this opening? etc.) If you jump state-of-the-art equipment it will allow you to safely cut away first even if your main container remains closed. Benefit of this procedure is of course that there is no decision other than 'reserve!'; IMHO the time consumed in the cut-away outweights the time to analyze & decide. If you are trained however to this '2 possible solutions'-scenario the psychological disadvantages of retraining outweight the slight possibility of a truly dangerous '2 canopies out mess' (those that I have seen were dealt with in the same way you handled yours - no harm done... but that is of course no 'scientific prove'...)
Hey - when I was young and stupid I even ended up with a tandem drogue between my legs...went straight for the silver and survived with nothing but a bruised ego - so it's no big deal, I guess ...
Apr 12, 2003, 7:00 AM
Post #43 of 187
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Re: [councilman24] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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I just recently started skydiving, but have been instructed on total malfunctions (pc in tow) to go directly to reserve due to the high speed nature of a total. It's not that hard to remember, total = direct to reserve. Partial = cutaway, then reserve.
Apr 12, 2003, 11:32 AM
Post #45 of 187
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Re: [Clownburner] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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Quote:
It's a tricky situation, no doubt. Best thing is probably to avoid the PC-in-tow completely through good equipment maintenance.
It's not only poor equipment maintenance that can cause a pilot chute in tow. We had a jumper a few years ago who, because of a lazy throw, had the pilot chute dance around in the burble and eventually become strangled by the bridle itself. There was nothing wrong with the equipment in this case and this jumper most certainly had a pilot chute in tow.
Apr 12, 2003, 12:30 PM
Post #46 of 187
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Re: [Clownburner] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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Best thing is probably to avoid the PC-in-tow completely through good equipment maintenance.
Packing errors are the main cause. Bridle misrouting is one. Forgetting to cock the pilot chute is another. Some rigs have a very square stiffener on the bottom flap so if the bridle is pushed over the corner underneat the side flap, that's another cause. Jimbo touched on another cause, there are others.
Apr 12, 2003, 9:40 PM
Post #47 of 187
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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As I was trained, and have heard many times over, if you have anything out, chop first, then go silver. Less chance of the reserve opening shock popping your main pin out and giving you a 2 out problem. Nothing out, I go silver, and have done it. Hard pull, 3 tries, couldn't get the pud to budge (improperly packed pilot chute in a very tight, almost new BOC pouch) and went straight to the reserve. I like knwowing that in the very rare chance that I have a reserve mal, I haven't allready lost my other option-attempting again the deploy my main.
Apr 12, 2003, 11:36 PM
Post #48 of 187
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Re: [andy2] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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I just recently started skydiving, but have been instructed on total malfunctions (pc in tow) to go directly to reserve due to the high speed nature of a total. It's not that hard to remember, total = direct to reserve. Partial = cutaway, then reserve.
A PC in tow isn't a total, it's a partial because you have material (in this case, the PC & bridle) out.
A total would be something like a missing handle or a hard pull preventing extraction of the PC.
With a PC in tow, you still have the possibility of the main coming out due to either the shock of the reserve opening or because the main container isn't being compressed by the now-deployed reserve, possibly allowing the pin to now be pulled by the exposed PC.
Apr 13, 2003, 1:20 AM
Post #49 of 187
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Re: [RevJim] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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[I like knwowing that in the very rare chance that I have a reserve mal, I haven't allready lost my other option-attempting again the deploy my main. well said Jim!
Apr 13, 2003, 3:08 AM
Post #50 of 187
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Re: [RevJim] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
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"As I was trained, and have heard many times over, if you have anything out, chop first, then go silver. Less chance of the reserve opening shock popping your main pin out and giving you a 2 out problem."
Why would chopping first lead to less chance of the main coming out? If it does open but is not attached to the harness it can still cause problems. Even worse problems the way I see it , if it entangles with your reserve you won't be able to reach it.
(This post was edited by RTB on Apr 13, 2003, 3:14 AM)
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