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PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?

 


Poll: PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
Cut away first, then pull reserve 227 / 66%
Pull reserve immediately, no cutaway 117 / 34%
344 total votes
 
RTB  (D 582)

Dec 23, 2002, 5:22 AM
Post #1 of 187 (5584 views)
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PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? Can't Post

What would you do if you have a pilot chute in tow?
The normal procedure I believe is to cut away first, but the risk of having the main risers or coming loose and interfering with the reserve could be potentially very dangerous.
If the main is released from the three rings, chances are you will not be able to reach it.
What would you do and why?

This poll was made after reading the post main/reserve entanglement in the Incident forum.


BPO  (D 87411)

Dec 23, 2002, 5:56 AM
Post #2 of 187 (5503 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer.. I know nothing... Tongue

cut away, then pull reserve.

when the reserve is out of the container, the main pin will have a bigger chance of getting loose enough to activate the main canopy.. and that is something I'd rather avoid..

I'm sure this discussion has been on these forums one more than one occasion, and there are enough (valid) motivations for either action. Most important is to do (whatever action you take) what you plan to do and do it quickly!

Blue skies!


Sonic  (B 102345)

Dec 23, 2002, 5:59 AM
Post #3 of 187 (5499 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cutaway first, mainly cos it keeps the procedure the same - I don't want to be thinking "do I chop it first or not" while screaming through 1500 foot Wink


fudd  (C License)

Dec 23, 2002, 6:20 AM
Post #4 of 187 (5479 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Had a pc in tow and I cut away first.
Acted on instinct and believe I did the right thing. At least I'm here to talk about it Shocked


parachutist  (D 25468)

Dec 23, 2002, 6:45 AM
Post #5 of 187 (5470 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

This poll was made after reading the post main/reserve entanglement in the Incident forum.

There is another option <only use this method if you have sufficient altitude to screw around.>

Reach back, grab the bridle that's trailing behind you & give it a solid yank to try and dislodge the pin, release bridle immediately after yank. If the pin came out then great & if not then pull cutaway followed by reserve.

This cleared a PC in tow that I had once. I was @ 12,000 ft doing a hop & pop so I had plenty of time. The PC was trailing because the bridle was short. I had thrown out the PC and it just dragged around behind me at full extention, but since it was catching my burble it didn't have enough pressure to pull the pin. If you're low when you realize you have a PC in tow then go directly to emergency procedure. Shocked

Chris


markbaur  (D 6108)

Dec 23, 2002, 7:45 AM
Post #6 of 187 (5427 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the time, riser covers and the webbing "set" at the 3-ring will keep the risers from releasing in a no-tension cut away.

I'd argue that the best general procedure is cut away, then pull reserve. This procedure works in almost all situations, and extra time spent cutting away when you don't need to is balanced by the reduced time needed to analyze the malfunction.

Make the decision tree short. One pull-time procedure, executed well:
Step 1. Pull a ripcord -- preferably the main, but reserve if necessary.
Step 2. If you don't like the result, cut away and pull reserve.

Mark


(This post was edited by markbaur on Dec 23, 2002, 9:16 AM)


murrays  (C 1285)

Dec 23, 2002, 7:51 AM
Post #7 of 187 (5422 views)
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Re: [BPO] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see the action of pulling back and yanking on the bridle to be very bad _if_ jumping a ROL throwout. I know there aren't many people still jumping them but pulling on a bridle that is misrouted under the harness or leg strap may have the undesirable effect of opening the main container, having the main come out and creating a huge mess that can't be fully released.

I've always jumped a pullout which I liked because it removed the possibility of a misrouted bridle but I have always thought that opening your reserve without pulling the cutaway handle was the accepted wisdom for a pc in tow.

Murray


grega  (D 100020)

Dec 23, 2002, 7:52 AM
Post #8 of 187 (5418 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

i'd definetely cut away first and then deploy the reserve. of course if i'd have enough altitude i'd try to rich the bridle and open the container by pulling the bridle as mentioned eralier.
If you don't cutaway before pulling the reserve the main canopy could open the same time you pulled the reserve. That way you can have both canopies opening at the same time. In worst case scenario they could entangle. And i can't think of worse case scenario than both canopies opened and entangled Unsure


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 23, 2002, 7:53 AM
Post #9 of 187 (5414 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

"... the risk of having the main risers or coming loose and interfering with the reserve could be potentially very dangerous."

I thought we reduced this risk in the late 1970s with Velcro risers keeper straps. Then Velcro riser covers were introduced in the early 1980s. Finally, tuck tab riser covers were introduced in the late 1980s. All the manufacturers have been steadily improving their tuck tabs since then.
The chances of a cutaway main riser interferring with a reserve deployment are pretty slim these days.
There is a much higher risk that the main will start to deploy when the reserve container emptys. The last thing I want is two canopies fighting for air.


SkySlut  (D License)

Dec 23, 2002, 7:59 AM
Post #10 of 187 (5410 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a PC in tow once and I put my hands on both handles and then started beating the hell out of my container with my elbows. It worked and I could also keep stable, keep a visual reference on my altitude, and avoid the bridle wrapping around my arm by attempting to grab it & pull it out. If that method didnt work, I would have chopped and gone for the reserve. Anyways, its important to realize not to mess with this one too long...you are at terminal for the whole time! This mal will wake you up really quick on the first load on a sunday morning!!!


CanEHdian  (B 4418)

Dec 23, 2002, 8:38 AM
Post #11 of 187 (5383 views)
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Re: [SkySlut] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent info.

Cheers,
CanEHdian


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 23, 2002, 10:49 AM
Post #12 of 187 (5340 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I had cut away first from my PC in tow I'd be dead. Remember, you've thrown out, waited for deployment, checked to see what's going on, recognized the problem, maye checked altitude, and looked for handles. And your still in freefall.

On 2000' demo exit I had a PC in tow. After taking 4 sec to ensure stability after an awkward exit, throwing out, etc listed above, I pulled my reserve directly. I had both canopies opening above my head as I went into the trees. If I had taken the time to cutaway I wouldn't have made it. I think it was during the PD two square out study they tried to get them to entangle during deployment and failed all but once. I think I'd rather not have the entire main free to wrap around a reserve bag, lines or canopy. At least if it's still attached it's trying to inflate and separate itself from the reserve.

We had a transient jumper from England stop by to make a jump. He had about 80 jumps and didn't own his own rig. He was thoroughly checked out and the gear was familiar to him. He went in. In helping the state police investigate the incident, I determine there was nothing that should have prevented him from opening the main or reserve. The only handle missing and never found (after two searches) was the cutaway handle. No one watched him on his solo freefall. In reviewing his log book he had been trying some freestyle manuvers and losing stability. There was no indication of suicide. What I believe happened, and there is no way of knowing for sure, was he tried freestyle manuvers again, maybe lost stability but certainly lost altitude awareness, realized he was low, decided to open his reserve, and resorted to his one method fits all reserve procedure of cutting away and pulling his reserve. He spent the rest of his life pulling the only handle that wouldn't open a parachute. (No AAD was installed.)

Yes, this requires two procedures. But I've had two procedures since my initial training in 1978. Total (and I include PC in tow) pull reserve, partial, cutaway and pull reserve. These two incidents, one happening to me and one I investigated, still lead me to conclude with a PC in tow you better get something out, then worry about releasing your main if necessary.

Sorry for the downer post but wanted to explain my reasons for my opinion.


falxori  (D License)

Dec 23, 2002, 11:06 AM
Post #13 of 187 (5335 views)
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Re: [Sonic] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

we can (and do) debate on the action needed when we have PC in tow.

i just don't like the argument of "one procedure is easier remembered"
there are malfunctions that requires pulling the reserve and not cutaway first (like hard pull, or handle missing).

i go with: if the container was opened --> chop
if not (including pc in tow, cant find the damn handle etc.)--> pull silver.
O


JohanW  (D 86318)

Dec 23, 2002, 11:32 AM
Post #14 of 187 (5326 views)
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Re: [councilman24][falxori] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

[councilman] You consider a PC in tow a total. I don't. It's a PC in tow, and my main may deploy anytime. Or it may not.
[falxori] With a PC in tow, your container is as closed as Schr÷dinger's cat is alive.

On a more or less normal jump, I have from my hard deck down to 1000' to pull two handles. Below 1000', anything over my head is a bonus, and I'd go straight to silver as well. That's what I was taught, and our training is obviously different.

[councilman exits at 2000' at a demo] This situation is sufficiently around normal procedures that it would warrant other-than-normal procedures to deal with a mal. There's a reason why demoes are to be performed by highly experienced jumpers. You reacted to your situation adequately, you lived to tell the tale, but I do not consider it a reason to immediately deploy the reserve under other circumstances.

The 1000' reserve deck, the 2000' demo exit and the transient freestyler from England all underline the prime importance of altitude awareness.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 23, 2002, 11:38 AM
Post #15 of 187 (5323 views)
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Re: [falxori] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
i just don't like the argument of "one procedure is easier remembered"
there are malfunctions that requires pulling the reserve and not cutaway first (like hard pull, or handle missing).

A hard pull or missing handle does not "require" not cutting away. If you have a hard pull, cutaway and then pull your reserve, what difference does it make? The reserve will open and you will land.

Councilman- getting out at 2000 ft unstable was the second mistake. The first was not preventing the PC in tow, they are preventable. As for the PD/Army study, that was done w/ large, student-type mains and reserves. Not applicicable to small-small, and small-large mains and reserves.

Personally, I would cutaway from a PC in tow. I do not want to find out if my VX-60 and MR-109-M would entangle or not.

Hook


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 23, 2002, 11:59 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hook

I didn't say I didn't learn anything. And the point about the dual study of entanglement was during deployment, not after opening with highperformance canopies. They tried to deploy simultaneously and couldn't get them to interfer before opening. My point, which is still valid, is that at 2000' (or 3000' pulling higher) at terminal (and I wasn't) IF you have a PC in tow, you don't have much time to waste pulling a handle that doesn't open a parachute. BTW this was in 1987 before many of the improvements in current gear. Your situation with a 60 may add a different spin.Wink


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 23, 2002, 12:17 PM
Post #17 of 187 (5292 views)
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Re: [councilman24] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Blush Oops, sorry council, I guess I should slow down.

True, you don't have a lot of time, but if you don't have enought ime, you are pulling too low. If you discover you have a hores-shoe mal at pull time and can't get the PC out of the BOC, you have to cutaway and pull the reserve. So if you are so low that you don't have time to attempt to pull the PC, cutaway before pulling the reserve, you should pull higher.

Hook
With today's high performance canopiues, not cutting away may create a larger problem than cutting away from a PC in tow.


Kirils  (D License)

Dec 23, 2002, 1:19 PM
Post #18 of 187 (5272 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was my first mal. I cracked the side of the container with my elbow and the bag popped out spinning with a partial canopy deployment.. I chopped and had a main/reserve entanglement.
NEXT TIME... I will spread my legs and do a forward flip and catch the PC between my legs.


falxori  (D License)

Dec 23, 2002, 1:28 PM
Post #19 of 187 (5265 views)
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Re: [JohanW] [falxori] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
With a PC in tow, your container is as closed as Schr÷dinger's cat is alive

nice analogy, but from what i've learned, if the container is opened and the bag is out, its a baglock and no longer a pc in tow.
will i be able to know ?
unlike the poor cat, this mess is on my back, not locked in a lead box, so i hope i'll feel it.


JohanW  (D 86318)

Dec 23, 2002, 1:52 PM
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Re: [falxori] [falxori] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

The bag may not lock. And do you have the time to react to what is or is not on your back?

When having a high speed mal, these become very serious questions I'd rather ponder on the ground.


sweeney  (D 26032)

Dec 23, 2002, 4:39 PM
Post #21 of 187 (5202 views)
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Re: [Kirils] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
NEXT TIME... I will spread my legs and do a forward flip and catch the PC between my legs.

Are you serious?


RTB  (D 582)

Dec 23, 2002, 4:43 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

"I thought we reduced this risk in the late 1970s with Velcro risers keeper straps. Then Velcro riser covers were introduced in the early 1980s. Finally, tuck tab riser covers were introduced in the late 1980s"

If the reserve is open or opening the reserve risers will also open the tuck tab riser covers.
Most likely the set in the three rings will keep them from coming lose, but I'm also considering relative workshops recommendation for tandem masters to not cut if the release has not been made. Just because of the risk for the main risers entangling.
And as someone else posted, if you cant reach the entangling main it could be an even bigger problem than if they are both still attached.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 23, 2002, 5:34 PM
Post #23 of 187 (5187 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[
True, you don't have a lot of time, but if you don't have enought ime, you are pulling too low. If you discover you have a hores-shoe mal at pull time and can't get the PC out of the BOC, you have to cutaway and pull the reserve. So if you are so low that you don't have time to attempt to pull the PC, cutaway before pulling the reserve, you should pull higher.

Which is why I don't agree with minimum PACK opening at 2000' for D license. One of the more positive things about newer jumpers is their desire to pull higher and their desire to have an AAD. But, being scared of a 4000' hop and pop, let alone a 2000' exit, or doesn't help. Along with many not knowing much about or wanting to learn about their gear, (including packing their mainUnimpressed). Maybe one procedure is better for some. I always give both procedures to transition students, tell them why I have my opinion, and tell them to decide and practice on the ground. Of course in the early days the theoretical procedure was to roll on you back, pull in the PC (which is creating 150lbs of drag), roll back and fire your reserve. I always figured this was just so you didn't see the trees coming, like I did.Wink

This debate is a old as throwout PC's, and is a personal decision that each of us has to make, hopefully before we need to act on it. It's also complicated by the canopies that take 700+ ft' to open. (If you don't have to check your shorts, it opened too slow.Wink) Of course I'm an inch shorter than I used to be.Unsure

Ripcords forerver!!!WinkCool Just kidding.

Blue skies,

Terry


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 24, 2002, 8:25 AM
Post #24 of 187 (5104 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"I thought we reduced this risk in the late 1970s with Velcro rises keeper straps. Then Velcro riser covers were introduced in the early 1980s. Finally, tuck tab riser covers were introduced in the late 1980s"

"If the reserve is open or opening the reserve risers will also open the tuck tab riser covers.
Most likely the set in the three rings will keep them from coming lose, but I'm also considering relative workshops recommendation for tandem masters to not cut if the release has not been made. Just because of the risk for the main risers entangling.
And as someone else posted, if you cant reach the entangling main it could be an even bigger problem than if they are both still attached.
"

If the reserve risers pull the main riser cover tuck tabs open as they deploy the reserve, so what? Once the reserve has gotten past riser stretch, it is almost impossible for a late-deploying main to interferr with reserve inflation.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 24, 2002, 8:29 AM
Post #25 of 187 (5103 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Folks, let's keep our terminology straight here.
A bag lock is vastly different than a container lock.
A bag lock usually has the pilotchute, bridle and most of the lines extended.
A container lock may or may not have a pilotchute out (depending upon type of system), but the d-bag is still firmly lodged on your bag and the side flaps are still closed.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 24, 2002, 8:39 AM
Post #26 of 187 (1772 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

One emergency procedure for all?

It depends upon the skydiver's experience level.
Emergency procedures should change as you gain more experience.
We like to keep things dirt simple for first-timers. We only teach them one response to all emergencies, because that is all the information most of them cna absorb in one sitting.
And frankly, I wonder how much of it really sank in. Thank God (or Mike Furry?) that Mantas are so reliable!
If first-timers are only doing static-line/IAD, then you can further simplify emergency procedures by deleting all the can't find handle/hard pull, etc emergency drills. They can wait until they start freefall before they need to know those emergency procedures.
CSPA recommends teaching one set of emergency procedures during the first jump course (mostly IAD in Canada). Students learn some more emergency procedures when they start freefalling. They do a verbal review of emergency procedures as part of the testing for their Solo Certificate (around 10 jumps), then another review as part of the testing for their A Certificate (20 - 25 jumps). During each of those reviews we teach them a bit more and encourage them to put more thought into why they do procedure A vs. procedure B.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 24, 2002, 8:47 AM
Post #27 of 187 (1772 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If a demo from 2000' forces you to change your emergency procedures, then you are exiting too low.

Remember that most USPA/CSPA/BPA guidelines for exit and opening altitudes were written long before the current generation of tiny ZP canopies came into fashion. Heck, most of these guidelines were written before canopies had corners! These guidelines are minimums. Most modern skydivers wisely pull higher than the minimums


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Dec 24, 2002, 10:20 AM
Post #28 of 187 (1760 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't Mike McGowan nearly die 3-4 years ago because he cut away during a pilot chute in tow? If I remember correctly, his main risers entangled with the reserve lines and he only got partial inflation. If he hadn't landed in a tree he'd probably be dead.

As for the 2-canopy out study, the army used big canopies, but the PD study used all sorts of different, widely-varying canopies.

I'm definitely of the belief that I'd rather have 2 canopies out than none. I'll dump my reserve on a pc-in-tow and then deal with 2 canopies if need be. When I'm plummeting towards the earth at 120 mph I don't want to waste time cutting away something which isn't even out.

It is all a personal decision though. I'm a lot less afraid of landing with too much canopy out than too little. I just figure my odds are better with the second.
W


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 24, 2002, 11:02 AM
Post #29 of 187 (1747 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a newbie so don't do what I tell you, but I had a PC in tow (due to a shrunken kill line). I went with option C, yanking the bridle. Everything worked out fine so I'm glad I did it, but if I was in the same situation again I'd cut away and pull the reserve I think. When it happened, I found myself grabbing the bridle before I even thought about it. It just happened. Reached back and pulled it in one motion. The whole thing from when I realized I had a problem to having an opening canopy probably took 3 seconds or less. I don't know where the instinct to yank the bridle came from, cause I never learned to do that. It just happened.

Dave


tigra  (C 27417)

Dec 24, 2002, 11:27 AM
Post #30 of 187 (1741 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mike McGowan isn't the only one to nearly die from that scenario. A good friend of mine experienced the same thing. He's lucky ot be alive, but wasn't as lucky as Mike mCgowan. He broke his back, both his legs and completely shattered one ankle. If he had it to do over, he would have gone for the reserve first!

I'm completely with you on this one.

maura


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 24, 2002, 11:59 AM
Post #31 of 187 (1741 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally it depends on situation and gear for me. If I'm low, or I am jumping a rig with poor riser covers (like my CRW Talon) then I won't cut away, and take the risk of a dual deployment. If I have the altitude and a rig with good riser covers (like my Reflex) then I will try once to clear the main (by reaching back) then cut away and open the reserve. On my reflex, the main risers will not be 'popped' until the reserve risers are extracted, so I don't worry too much about riser entanglement. On my old Swift, riser entanglement would have been nearly guaranteed.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Dec 24, 2002, 12:09 PM
Post #32 of 187 (1740 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know this gets a bit off topic, but I've always considered the fact that in a PC in tow (with a throw out), you're trailing about 9 feet of bridle over your head when you kick your reserve out (either before or after cutting away). Does the free-bag clear the trailing PC? Does the main pop out afterwords?...

That trailing bridle is creating drag. That drag may prompt a two-out after you put your reserve out. Now do we want cutaway-control of the main as it inflates or not? That's another discussion.

This, to me, is scary stuff, and another reason why I opt to jump a pull-out. In a true total mal on a pull-out, there is much less chance of the reserve being snagged by anything, as there is little or nothing there to snag. Also, there is less chance of the main snaking out after the reserve deploys (no pressure on the pin as there is nothing out causing drag). True, the pin could still slip out as the container walls relax, but I've played with it and even with an empty reserve tray, a properly sized loop seems to keep the main tray closed.

So, what does that tell us? Well, what I get from it is that there is a lot of freeky stuff that can happen if you're trailing ANYTHING behind you and you put a canopy out. As for cutting away first or second, I'm in favor of getting something over my head ASAP. The ground isn't getting any further away, ya know!Unsure


Kris  (D 26033)

Dec 24, 2002, 4:54 PM
Post #33 of 187 (1718 views)
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Re: [sweeney] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are you serious?

Apparently, it's been done before.

As for my answer to the original question... If I have anything out I will cutaway and pull my reserve.

If I have nothing out (hard-pull, missing hacky) then it's straight to silver.

Kris


wonko  (D License)

Dec 25, 2002, 9:23 AM
Post #34 of 187 (1684 views)
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Re: [billvon] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On my reflex, the main risers will not be 'popped' until the reserve risers are extracted, so I don't worry too much about riser entanglement. On my old Swift, riser entanglement would have been nearly guaranteed.
OK andwhaddayouthinkabbout Wings & Javelins ?


ChileRelleno  (D 24868)

Dec 25, 2002, 9:50 AM
Post #35 of 187 (1679 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Chop'it then pop'it


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 25, 2002, 9:03 PM
Post #36 of 187 (1655 views)
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Re: [wonko] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wings - good riser covers.

Old Javelins - bad. New Javelins - good covers, as long as the reserve is sized and packed correctly.


quatorze  (A 39233)

Dec 26, 2002, 3:54 AM
Post #37 of 187 (1636 views)
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Re: [billvon] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wings - good riser covers.

Old Javelins - bad. New Javelins - good covers, as long as the reserve is sized and packed correctly.

Bill, how old are the Javelins that you mean, I jump a Jav, and it isn't the newest kid on the block.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 27, 2002, 12:51 PM
Post #38 of 187 (1580 views)
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Re: [quatorze] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Bill, how old are the Javelins that you mean,

Two specifically, from 92-93, that I've seen have tempermental riser covers. Both have been semi-permanently retired I believe (one's in my closet.)


flyangel2

Dec 27, 2002, 5:30 PM
Post #39 of 187 (1567 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a PC in tow on one of my malfunctions. I really didn't have time to think about what I was doing. After I threw out, I just laid there, wondering why I was having such a slow open. Then it hit me, I didn't have anything out. Or that's what I thought. I went straight to the silver handle. After opening shock, I now had two canopies out. I just waited till the main bounced off the reserve and cut it away. I don't advocate what I did, but it work for me at the time. I teach low timer jumpers that what ever they decided to do, do it early and don't deviate from their plan. It worked for me that time, and I hope if ever put in that situation again, I will once again make the right decision.


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 1, 2003, 5:39 AM
Post #40 of 187 (1506 views)
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Re: [flyangel2] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

----------------------------------------
I had a PC in tow on one of my malfunctions. I really didn't have time to think about what I was doing. After I threw out, I just laid there, wondering why I was having such a slow open.
-----------------------------------------
And there you are, wondering at 200 km/h with a whole planet aimed right at you...

1. Maybe the pilotchute landed in your burble
2. Maybe you didn't cock the pilotchute
3. Maybe there is a temporary locking pin
4. Maybe a pull-up cord
5. Maybe a bag-lock
6. Maybe Gremlins DO exist

Trouble is, by the time you find out you are back on terra firma. So there is not much point in differentiating on possible solutions.
If you don't have the time to cut-away first then maybe you should pull 500ft higher
If you don't have a rig that allows you to cut away first safely (i.e. where the main risers could block your reserve) then maybe you should see a rigger.

My Ç/$ 0,02

(which are not 'personally' aimed at flyangel2 who I only quote since it is an accurate description of the whole psychology of the situation at hand, which is basically "I pulled and keep falling down - what next?"... Been there done that and George G still owes me a T-shirt...Cool)


flyangel2

Jan 2, 2003, 7:16 PM
Post #41 of 187 (1446 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1. Maybe the pilotchute landed in your burble
2. Maybe you didn't cock the pilotchute
3. Maybe there is a temporary locking pin
4. Maybe a pull-up cord
5. Maybe a bag-lock
6. Maybe Gremlins DO exist

Nope, none of those. I had a bungy PC and the bungy was too short. Because it was too short, the nylon and the netting met evenly. Hence, no air can catch, so the PC doesn't inflate Unsure.
Learned my lesson on that one.
I felt I pulled high enough to handle the situation, I just prefer the "go straight to the reserve handle" answer in this situation. Each person needs to make a personal choice on how to handle a PC in tow, which ever way you decide to do it, stick to that plan, don't change your mind mid stream


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 3, 2003, 1:30 AM
Post #42 of 187 (1426 views)
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Re: [flyangel2] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Each person needs to make a personal choice on how to handle a PC in tow, which ever way you decide to do it, stick to that plan, don't change your mind mid stream
Partially agreed. Sticking to whatever plan you have is always better than revising it in freefall but it could be that you, other than the "I'm under nothing"-sensation, don't know what is going on (is my pack open? What is blocking this opening? etc.) If you jump state-of-the-art equipment it will allow you to safely cut away first even if your main container remains closed. Benefit of this procedure is of course that there is no decision other than 'reserve!'; IMHO the time consumed in the cut-away outweights the time to analyze & decide.
If you are trained however to this '2 possible solutions'-scenario the psychological disadvantages of retraining outweight the slight possibility of a truly dangerous '2 canopies out mess' (those that I have seen were dealt with in the same way you handled yours - no harm done... but that is of course no 'scientific prove'...)

Hey - when I was young and stupid I even ended up with a tandem drogue between my legs...went straight for the silver and survived with nothing but a bruised ego - so it's no big deal, I guess ... Crazy


andy2

Apr 12, 2003, 7:00 AM
Post #43 of 187 (1341 views)
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Re: [councilman24] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just recently started skydiving, but have been instructed on total malfunctions (pc in tow) to go directly to reserve due to the high speed nature of a total. It's not that hard to remember, total = direct to reserve. Partial = cutaway, then reserve.


Clownburner  (B 26842)

Apr 12, 2003, 7:58 AM
Post #44 of 187 (1336 views)
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Re: [andy2] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

The SIM isn't even sure which one to recommend here, they list both as acceptable.

I am a recently licensed 24-jump wonder, but I was told that if you've thrown anything out, cutaway first.

It's a tricky situation, no doubt. Best thing is probably to avoid the PC-in-tow completely through good equipment maintenance.


(This post was edited by Clownburner on Apr 12, 2003, 7:58 AM)


Jimbo  (D License)

Apr 12, 2003, 11:32 AM
Post #45 of 187 (1312 views)
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Re: [Clownburner] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
It's a tricky situation, no doubt. Best thing is probably to avoid the PC-in-tow completely through good equipment maintenance.

It's not only poor equipment maintenance that can cause a pilot chute in tow. We had a jumper a few years ago who, because of a lazy throw, had the pilot chute dance around in the burble and eventually become strangled by the bridle itself. There was nothing wrong with the equipment in this case and this jumper most certainly had a pilot chute in tow.

-
Jim


hookitt  (D License)

Apr 12, 2003, 12:30 PM
Post #46 of 187 (1306 views)
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Re: [Clownburner] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Best thing is probably to avoid the PC-in-tow completely through good equipment maintenance.

Packing errors are the main cause. Bridle misrouting is one. Forgetting to cock the pilot chute is another. Some rigs have a very square stiffener on the bottom flap so if the bridle is pushed over the corner underneat the side flap, that's another cause. Jimbo touched on another cause, there are others.


RevJim  (C 33989)

Apr 12, 2003, 9:40 PM
Post #47 of 187 (1275 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I was trained, and have heard many times over, if you have anything out, chop first, then go silver. Less chance of the reserve opening shock popping your main pin out and giving you a 2 out problem.
Nothing out, I go silver, and have done it. Hard pull, 3 tries, couldn't get the pud to budge (improperly packed pilot chute in a very tight, almost new BOC pouch) and went straight to the reserve. I like knwowing that in the very rare chance that I have a reserve mal, I haven't allready lost my other option-attempting again the deploy my main.


Kris  (D 26033)

Apr 12, 2003, 11:36 PM
Post #48 of 187 (1262 views)
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Re: [andy2] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just recently started skydiving, but have been instructed on total malfunctions (pc in tow) to go directly to reserve due to the high speed nature of a total. It's not that hard to remember, total = direct to reserve. Partial = cutaway, then reserve.

A PC in tow isn't a total, it's a partial because you have material (in this case, the PC & bridle) out.

A total would be something like a missing handle or a hard pull preventing extraction of the PC.

With a PC in tow, you still have the possibility of the main coming out due to either the shock of the reserve opening or because the main container isn't being compressed by the now-deployed reserve, possibly allowing the pin to now be pulled by the exposed PC.

Kris


stilettodude  (D 21881)

Apr 13, 2003, 1:20 AM
Post #49 of 187 (1258 views)
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Re: [RevJim] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

[I like knwowing that in the very rare chance that I have a reserve mal, I haven't allready lost my other option-attempting again the deploy my main.
well said Jim!


RTB  (D 582)

Apr 13, 2003, 3:08 AM
Post #50 of 187 (1250 views)
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Re: [RevJim] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"As I was trained, and have heard many times over, if you have anything out, chop first, then go silver. Less chance of the reserve opening shock popping your main pin out and giving you a 2 out problem."

Why would chopping first lead to less chance of the main coming out?
If it does open but is not attached to the harness it can still cause problems. Even worse problems the way I see it , if it entangles with your reserve you won't be able to reach it.


(This post was edited by RTB on Apr 13, 2003, 3:14 AM)


RevJim  (C 33989)

Apr 13, 2003, 6:37 AM
Post #51 of 187 (1908 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you honestly believe that by being able to reach your main risers that you can prevent and entanglement by pulling you main in (I personally don't have near the strength that would require) feel free to leave that right handle alone.

If the opening shock is what it takes to open the main tray, the reserve is already open and flying. The main will attempt to open in its relative wind, which is now behind and slightly above you. By the time it actually starts to inflate, the 3 rings will have released and it should part way behind you. I am much more confident that if the risers catch on the lines of my reserve that it will be controlable to the ground than if the main inflates behind me and works its way up to the flying reserve, possibly choking it off.

Everyone has their own choices it this senario. I have mine, and you should have yours. Make it an intelligent, informed decision, and stick to it when the shit hits the fan.


RevJim  (C 33989)

Apr 13, 2003, 6:40 AM
Post #52 of 187 (1905 views)
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Re: [stilettodude] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[I like knwowing that in the very rare chance that I have a reserve mal, I haven't allready lost my other option-attempting again the deploy my main.

well said Jim!
That simple statement has made quite a few people I have met re-think their emergency procedures.
Quote:
"HOW LOW CAN YOU GO?"
About 800 feet at throw out, but I ain't doing that again!


(This post was edited by RevJim on Apr 13, 2003, 6:40 AM)


RTB  (D 582)

Apr 13, 2003, 11:21 AM
Post #53 of 187 (1882 views)
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Re: [RevJim] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"If you honestly believe that by being able to reach your main risers that you can prevent and entanglement by pulling you main in (I personally don't have near the strength that would require) feel free to leave that right handle alone."

Eh, no I don't believe that I could pull a main in if it is flying. But I do believe that there is a possibility of affecting the canopy with the risers or toggles that is not there at all if you can't reach it.
Maybe an unlikely scenario, but a main entangled in a reserve is not something I would like to experience.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 13, 2003, 2:35 PM
Post #54 of 187 (1872 views)
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Re: [andy2] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

>It's not that hard to remember, total = direct to reserve. Partial =
> cutaway, then reserve.

Easy to remember but may be hard to implement.

Scenario: You pull. Nothing happens. You look behind you and see some stuff madly oscillating in the wind. Looks like a black thing and some white stuff; it's buffeting too fast to see exactly what it is, and it's in a place that's very awkward to look.

What do you do? Is it a PC-in-tow, an out of sequence deployment that got 'stuck,' an open container with a stuck bag, an open container with a killed PC that won't lift the main out, a PC stuck on legstrap hardware, or a suspension line that got entangled with the closing loop grommet? Is it a total or not?

We teach new jumpers to _always_ cut away first, even from a total, simply because it can sometimes be hard to tell a total from a PC in tow from a PC in burble etc. Once they get off student status we tell them it's now their choice, but I always recommend cutting away if _anything_ (even a PC) is deployed. By the same token, there is a great advantage in having procedures that seem simple to you (as long as they cover all common scenarios) so often it's a good idea to just stick with what you've got.


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Apr 14, 2003, 1:21 AM
Post #55 of 187 (1840 views)
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Re: [billvon] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

"there is a great advantage in having procedures that seem simple to you (as long as they cover all common scenarios) so often it's a good idea to just stick with what you've got"

I'm a big fan of the KISS principle, and to my mind having newbies and lowtimers (no offence to lowtimers!) taught only one procedure is in keeping with this.
If you give a student, or lowtimer, a choice of procedures, there is a definite probability that they will inevitably make the wrong choice.
In terms of numbers for risk assessment, it is not unusual to assume a 3 to 10% "wrong decision" rate (human factor failures) for, say, process plant control room operators, during high stress events.
Having only one set of proecures reduces this "wrong decision" rate significantly.
Not a big deal for a PC in tow, but could be significant for other 'normal' malfunctions....


jerm  (D 23994)

Apr 14, 2003, 8:23 AM
Post #56 of 187 (1802 views)
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Re: [Kris] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A PC in tow isn't a total, it's a partial because you have material (in this case, the PC & bridle) out.

again, differing definitions... where i come from a total means nothing has come out of the main container.


jerm  (D 23994)

Apr 14, 2003, 8:30 AM
Post #57 of 187 (1796 views)
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Re: [RevJim] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like knwowing that in the very rare chance that I have a reserve mal, I haven't allready lost my other option-attempting again the deploy my main.

that can go both ways, though.... old-timer i know had a pc in tow back in the arly 80s... went to silver, had a reserve total... about 800 ft the main finally popped out.... what if he'd cut away?

i don't have any more of the details like WHY the reserve total or if he was beating up his rig to finally dislodge the main, i should go ask...


jerm  (D 23994)

Apr 14, 2003, 8:34 AM
Post #58 of 187 (1792 views)
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Re: [Jimbo] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's not only poor equipment maintenance that can cause a pilot chute in tow. We had a jumper a few years ago who, because of a lazy throw, had the pilot chute dance around in the burble and eventually become strangled by the bridle itself. There was nothing wrong with the equipment in this case and this jumper most certainly had a pilot chute in tow.

I had the same thing happen at zhills a year and a half ago... got down and found the bridle half-hitched around the edge of the pilote chute.. lazy toss or just bad luck? who knows, but shit still happens even when you don't fuckup.

FWIW, i went right to silver.


mikkey  (D License)

Apr 14, 2003, 5:24 PM
Post #59 of 187 (1752 views)
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Re: [jerm] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have a PC out - the risk of getting a dual deployment with entanglement by just going for silver (or the reserve pilot entangling in main PC) is far greater then having a reserve mal. If you have anything "out" - do a cut away first if you have time.


jerm  (D 23994)

Apr 15, 2003, 7:18 AM
Post #60 of 187 (1720 views)
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Re: [mikkey] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you have a PC out - the risk of getting a dual deployment with entanglement by just going for silver (or the reserve pilot entangling in main PC) is far greater then having a reserve mal.

I agree, but that was only one illustration of the problems that can arise, others have already been addressed here. main risers choking off reserve has happened to a lot more than just Mike Mcgowan, he's just someone that everyone knows and thus the only instance people ever hear about.

Tell me how many entanglements you've seen from 2-out... NOT from an already malfunctioning main but just pc in tow, or someone goes low & dumps their main too late for their AAD, etc... I've seen a lot of 2-out scenarios, never seen an entanglement. Not saying it doesn't happen or isn't possible, but i think 2-out it's a lot more routine than lots of newbies seem to think (yes, i'm counting you in there).
From what i've seen, read and taken from the advice of a bunch of people who have been around this sport a HELL of a lot longer than me, i choose to go to right to silver.

In reply to:
If you have anything "out" - do a cut away first if you have time.

ummm... NO!


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Apr 15, 2003, 7:20 AM
Post #61 of 187 (1720 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm definitely of the belief that I'd rather have 2 canopies out than none. I'll dump my reserve on a pc-in-tow and then deal with 2 canopies if need be. When I'm plummeting towards the earth at 120 mph I don't want to waste time cutting away something which isn't even out.

I agree completely. PC in tow? I'm pulling silver. Those who know the story of Frank at SDC will know how cutting away almost killed him. When the reserve deployed it pushed the main risers free of the three ring. The snagged on the reserve deploying and nearly collapsed it. Well, actually, it inflated then deflated, then inflated, then deflated. Frank got lucky in that he hit during one of the better times in the canopy flight. He's walking again and jumping. But he had a hard long recovery. At least he, and Mike McGowan got the chance to recover.

If I already have one thing out above me that could interfere with reserve deployment why would I want to add two more things (main risers)?

I recognize I'm in the minority in the voting on this issue. But I believe I have solid information on which to base my opinion. PC in tow? I will be pulling the reserve handle without cutting away.

Chris Schindler


mikkey  (D License)

Apr 15, 2003, 2:23 PM
Post #62 of 187 (1692 views)
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Re: [jerm] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm, all interesting points, but it goes very much against what I have been taught over many years. In regard to stats, maybe I am wrong, but isn't main/reserve entanglement (without cutaway first) one of the most common fatality reasons? I just do not know how many of these were PC in tow. Assume there is no data available? PC in tow is probably the worst situation I can imagine. Really a worry that people are so divided on the issue how to react. Maybe some of the "bodies" really should do more research on the issue?


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 15, 2003, 2:36 PM
Post #63 of 187 (1688 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had 3 PC in tow reserve rides due to some gear experimentation. In each case, I automatically pulled my reserve handle. One thing is that in those days, riser keepers were either non-existent, or just wimpy little pieces of velcro halfway up the riser.

But the real reason was that my (mostly unconscious) reasoning was "I'm going really fast, I don't really have anything out, and it's time to pull the reserve."

Then I quit experimenting with pilot chute designs.

Wendy W.


jerm  (D 23994)

Apr 15, 2003, 2:51 PM
Post #64 of 187 (1686 views)
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Re: [mikkey] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

None of the reported fatalities since 1990 (according to skydivingfatalities.com) were due to a pc in tow and then a main-reserve entanglement due to not cutting away. There are M/R rntanglements on there, but not from PC in tow. They ARE missing a couple of years in the early 90s, but have been pretty thorough since then AFAIK.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Apr 15, 2003, 3:21 PM
Post #65 of 187 (1680 views)
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Re: [mikkey] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
PC in tow is probably the worst situation I can imagine.

IMO a Horse-Shoe is a the worst mal out there...there is often little you can do to reduce it once it's started, and your remaining options are less than appealing.

I'm not trying to undermine the severity of a pc in tow, but stats show that punching out your reserve past it is probably going to work. Since that too scares me, I jump a pull-out, which greatly reduces the odds of both of those malfunctions. just my 2 cents on it....Wink


mikkey  (D License)

Apr 15, 2003, 4:35 PM
Post #66 of 187 (1668 views)
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Re: [rigging65] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

"IMO a Horse-Shoe is a the worst mal out there...there is often little you can do to reduce it once it's started, and your remaining options are less than appealing. "

------------------------------------------------------------

Yea, mental lapse here - was including horse shoe in my own mind, and it is a quite a different mal type. On the other hand, I could imagine that people who pull/deploy will not always know if the high speed mal they are experiencing is a "in tow" or a horse shoe.
Now - correct me if I am wrong - the consensus on horse shoe mals is that you should cut away first (?). And here is the dilemma, if you say, this mal I will cut-away, and this I won't - the risk is that in the stress situation of a high speed mal, you might do the wrong thing - even if you are an experienced jumper. I know of incidents where very experienced people died deploying reserves into malfunctioning mains above their heads and died.
I think it is an advantage to have only "one" emergency procedure that is stored in your muscle memory. If you do a lot of thinking/evaluating at high speed you might just run out of time. I think I stick with my procedure of if I deployed the PC - I'll go for both handles and cut first.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 15, 2003, 4:43 PM
Post #67 of 187 (1666 views)
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Re: [mikkey] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Now - correct me if I am wrong - the consensus on horse shoe mals is that you should cut away first (?)

2 types of horse-shoe malfunctions.

1) PC still in BOC (or ROLUnsure), container open.
2) PC entangled with jumper, containr open.

Both are preventable.

Try to throw/clear the PC first. If unable, then no choice but to risk an entanglement and cutaway and fire the reserve into the mess.

For a PC in tow, I reach back and pull the pin. 24 in ZP PC w/ a 7 ft bridle has eliminated any hesitations for me.

Hook


sducoach  (D License)

Apr 15, 2003, 5:06 PM
Post #68 of 187 (1657 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile I wonder how our instructors are teaching this? I did a quick check of experience vs response on this and it appears by % the higher experience average jump levels say "silver". By instructor vs non-instructor the % is about equal.
I've always been taught "If there is tension on the risers, cut it away. If not, go for the silver".

Now how about this (another poll?) how about a horseshoe, what do you teach?

Blues,
J.E.


jerm  (D 23994)

Apr 15, 2003, 5:10 PM
Post #69 of 187 (1656 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For a PC in tow, I reach back and pull the pin. 24 in ZP PC w/ a 7 ft bridle has eliminated any hesitations for me.

unfortunately with a bridle-wrapped PC that only guarantees the main container will be open... though the upside is that it's not enough drag to a)lift anything out of the container or b) inflate the main once you open and the bag falls out.

also unfortunately it's REALLY tough to know that at the time...

fortunately.... bridle knotting the PC isn't all that common, thank goodness Smile

why am i talking?


sducoach  (D License)

Apr 15, 2003, 5:15 PM
Post #70 of 187 (1653 views)
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Re: [billvon] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

WinkBill,
Have you ever seen a PC in the burgle with bridle stretch? Help me with this one. We teach "check" which should clear a PC in the burble. If I'm looking and it's sitting there with a stretched bridle I'm pretty sure it's "in tow".

Clear this up for me.

Blues,
J.E.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Apr 16, 2003, 10:02 AM
Post #71 of 187 (1617 views)
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Re: [mikkey] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"IMO a Horse-Shoe is a the worst mal out there...there is often little you can do to reduce it once it's started, and your remaining options are less than appealing. "

------------------------------------------------------------

Yea, mental lapse here - was including horse shoe in my own mind, and it is a quite a different mal type. On the other hand, I could imagine that people who pull/deploy will not always know if the high speed mal they are experiencing is a "in tow" or a horse shoe.
Now - correct me if I am wrong - the consensus on horse shoe mals is that you should cut away first (?). And here is the dilemma, if you say, this mal I will cut-away, and this I won't - the risk is that in the stress situation of a high speed mal, you might do the wrong thing - even if you are an experienced jumper. I know of incidents where very experienced people died deploying reserves into malfunctioning mains above their heads and died.
I think it is an advantage to have only "one" emergency procedure that is stored in your muscle memory. If you do a lot of thinking/evaluating at high speed you might just run out of time. I think I stick with my procedure of if I deployed the PC - I'll go for both handles and cut first.
---------------------------------------------------------

Depends on how the horse-shoe started. Of course you want to try and free the pc first (we teach two attempts), but then you've simply got to suck it up, cutaway and hope it just wasn't your day to go...

That's what I think is most scary about this mal...even if you follow the procedure, you're only hoping it's going to work. I also teach CReW camps, and this is the thing that scares most folks learning to do CReW. There are simply no "given" procedures for many CReW mals...you have to think each one out and make a decision based on the position(s) your in and what's above and below you. And even then, it may or may not work. Freefallers really like the idea that there is a given, set procedure for everything...what they don't all realize, is that sometimes the mal you're given doesn't have a cut and dry answer to it.

Again, I jump a pull-out because it helps reduce pc in tow and horse-shoe. I want the deck stacked as much in my favor as I can get it. End of story.Smile


jumpgod  (C 32095)

Apr 16, 2003, 11:31 AM
Post #72 of 187 (1604 views)
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Re: [rigging65] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

has anyone ever cocked their pilot chute and double checked their equipment and still had a pilot chute in tow?

"i know nothing" but....

ever since i was a student, i was taught to cut-a-way and pull my reserve so that's what i would do. being a high speed and cooking through 1500' would speed up my actions appropriately.

blue ones!!!!


rigging65  (D 21921)

Apr 16, 2003, 4:50 PM
Post #73 of 187 (1579 views)
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Re: [jumpgod] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
has anyone ever cocked their pilot chute and double checked their equipment and still had a pilot chute in tow?

Sure, you can mis-route the bridle, hang it up on the corner of a stiffener, have the bridle half-hitch the envelope closed....

Quote:
ever since i was a student, i was taught to cut-a-way and pull my reserve so that's what i would do. being a high speed and cooking through 1500' would speed up my actions appropriately.

You hope it would speed up your actions. It may or may not, but the fact is, when you concentrate on something (like finding a handle that's hidden for some reason, or just really being intent on doing everything right) you may be less than "totally altitude aware". At 120 mph at 1500', that's not good.

And let's not forget that when you "speed up your actions" you don't always hold a nice body position...especially if you're using two hands to cutaway with. If you start tumbling as you cutaway, you may be deploying your reserve through your legs, or over your shoulder, or who knows where. More than one person has died as a result of deploying their reserve and tumbling into it (or the trailing pc behind you).

If you take the cutawy out of the process, you're more likely to get the reserve out while you're still relatively stable...thus increasing your odds of survival.

We're not talking about rocket-science here. If you train up to handle given situations, and train up well, you're going to perform well when the time comes to use it.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Feb 12, 2011, 6:31 PM
Post #74 of 187 (1226 views)
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Re: [Clownburner] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a tricky situation, no doubt. Best thing is probably to avoid the PC-in-tow completely through good equipment maintenance.
With spring and Safety Day coming, this is a good topic for a bumpy. Besides which, it finally happened to me, two weekends ago.

After tracking off from a 10 Way formation dive (Perris Rumble Rules Meet), I waved off and tossed just as my pull alarm was sounding at 3 grand. To my great disappointment and dismay, I found myself continuing to lie flat and stable. Looking around, I could see nothing. Reached back with my hand and could feel nothing, though I knew it had to be back there somewhere. The reaching around rolled me on my side, which might have cleared the p/c, but didn't. At that point, I decided I'd had enough and went straight to silver, getting a really quick, clean, and surprisingly soft opening from my PD193R (God bless PD !). I was opened on a level with the rest of my team and my hard deck alarm, which I set for 2 grand, never went off. My reserve was no sooner open than my main decided to come out and play. As it was behind the reserve, I checked my main & reserve risers quickly and decided I could safely cutaway the main, which I did before it was fully inflated. A friend on my team happened to catch my cutaway after opening on his GoPro.

Back on the ground, my rigger, who also happened to be our team's camera man, discovered a nasty black burn on my freebag, which actually cut right through the bag material. The reserve canopy was not damaged, but the freebag was junk. My main bridle had apparently snagged the freebag, causing a very intense friction burn. I'm just glad I never saw any of this as it was happening, while my reserve deployed in barely more than one second.

Addressing a number of issues; I have always maintained that the best way to deal with a p/c in tow is prevention. I still believe that, but inspite of everything I've done, it still happened.

My p/c is a factory spec Sunpath F-111 fabric p/c sized for a 190 ft canopy. It's much larger than most ZP p/c's, so large that people tell jokes about me doing CRW with it. I DEFINITELY cocked the kill line, I remember doing it (I do my own packing and routinely check the kill line at two different points in the process). The kill line was getting short enough that I'd scheduled it for replacement with my rigger, but it was not short enough for immediate concern - I could still see slack in the kill line next to the p/c centerlines, which were taut. I had also just replaced my main closing loop. This was only the second jump with the new loop, but it was no tighter than usual and my previous opening had been same as always.

I think the likeliest candidate for what went wrong, was a "lazy throw", in quotes because I'm not lazy about that either, but somehow I think the p/c managed to flip over my back and collapse in my burble. That could explain a dancing bridle trying to snag my freebag as well.

I have come in for some criticism about going straight to my reserve without a cutaway. I am one of a minority who have believed in pulling the reserve without a cutaway for a PCIT. As yet, USPA doesn't endorse one method or the other, only that you make your plan and stick with it, which is what I did. However two skydivers who I deeply respect, Jim Wallace and Dan BC, were both of the opinion that I should have cutaway first. Because I respect them as much as I do, I am seriously reconsidering my EP procedure should this ever happen again.

But honestly, I don't think a cutaway would have changed anything that happened. My risers would have stayed contained under their covers either way, and the main bridle would have grabbed at the freebag either way. The only difference I can see is that the main would have departed on its own as it belatedly tried to open. The truth is, people with PCIT mals have lived - and died - with or without a cutaway. But again, I am reconsidering my response in the future.

I am very leery of "tossing" a p/c. No matter how hard you toss, the upward blast of the air around you is going to take your p/c UP a lot quicker than any distance you think you can toss it. In the old days when hand deploy was new, we would pull it out to arm's length and let it go. I'm not talking about leaving it hanging out there either, but a smooth pull, full arm extension and release. I do know another jumper or two who now do that after having had their own PCIT malfunctions (and one is a rated AFF Instructor with over 9000 jumps).

Bottom line is, you can do your best to prevent a PCIT, but they can still happen to anyone, so BE PREPARED - make your plan and stick with it ! I hope this lengthy discourse will stimulate some discussions on Safety Day. Blue skies to all and let's be safe up there !


(This post was edited by tbrown on Feb 12, 2011, 7:56 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 12, 2011, 7:05 PM
Post #75 of 187 (1215 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think your decision to not cutaway first was correct, and what happened justifies that. The result if you had cutaway first would have been a lower opening.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Feb 12, 2011, 8:09 PM
Post #76 of 187 (1760 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think your decision to not cutaway first was correct, and what happened justifies that. The result if you had cutaway first would have been a lower opening.

That's one other thing I've been thinking about. Somebody on these forums once called the cutaway handle "the handle that won't save your life" in earlier PCIT forum discussions. If I had decided to cutaway first, I would have had to take the time to grab, peel and pull the red handle first, and burned off hundreds of feet doing so, before pulling silver and ending the skydive. My hard deck alarm would've gone off for sure. My main bridle would have still grabbed and destroyed my freebag.

It might have made a difference if the freebag hadn't cleared the bridle But that's the heart of the problem with PCIT's - they're a crapshoot malfunction whether you cutaway or not. Anyone who survives a PCIT is lucky, no matter what they do. The only real solution is another evolution to our gear and I don't know what that would entail.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 12, 2011, 9:51 PM
Post #77 of 187 (1743 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

A pullout? Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 12, 2011, 10:30 PM
Post #78 of 187 (1740 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why would chopping first lead to less chance of the main coming out?
It wouldn't.

In reply to:
If it does open but is not attached to the harness it can still cause problems. Even worse problems the way I see it , if it entangles with your reserve you won't be able to reach it.
Bingo.

This fits what I do and teach.
PCIT = Deploy reserve.

Regardless of your procedure, the main could still come out after you deploy the reserve.

Cutaway first: Main gets entangled and the risers are out of your reach...you're hosed with no real options.

No cutaway first: At least you have one more chance to save your life as small as it may be. If you have access to those risers of the entangled main, you may be able to pull the main out of the reserve.

But, you can simply prevent that.

If you deploy the reserve and the main comes out...WTH, THEN cutaway the main and clear the risers before it inflates up into the reserve.

MY PCIT:
Deployed reserve with one hand and held the main in the pack with the other at the same time.

Reeled in the main PC and flew and landed the canopy with one hand...two toggles, one PC and one reserve handle in one hand, holding main tray closed with the other.

Not a big deal after the reserve cleared the main PC and opened.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 12, 2011, 10:32 PM
Post #79 of 187 (1739 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm definitely of the belief that I'd rather have 2 canopies out than none. I'll dump my reserve on a pc-in-tow and then deal with 2 canopies if need be. When I'm plummeting towards the earth at 120 mph I don't want to waste time cutting away something which isn't even out.

It is all a personal decision though. I'm a lot less afraid of landing with too much canopy out than too little. I just figure my odds are better with the second.
W

+1


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Feb 12, 2011, 11:18 PM
Post #80 of 187 (1730 views)
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Re: PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes me cringe just thinking about it. I suppose I've always been taught and feel that if I ever throw the pilot chute out, I'll cut away, and then pull reserve.

I don't like the malfunction, options, or possibilities (other than living through it). Nasty Malfunction and I hope I never have to deal with it.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Feb 12, 2011, 11:24 PM
Post #81 of 187 (1731 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A pullout? Wink

I once considered a pullout, but they have their own set of problems. Technical arguments aside, I think the market has already made the decision, with well over 90% choosing throwaway after more than 30 years, myself included. Throwaway can be alright for those who choose, but I'm not one of them.


normiss  (D 28356)

Feb 12, 2011, 11:35 PM
Post #82 of 187 (1727 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is what I believe most of us think.

Muscle memory will have the majority of us going cutaway then reserve.
Hopefully not pausing in consideration.Unsure

I've always leaned towards the reserve first. Many posts here reinforce that thought.


format  (B 15348)

Feb 12, 2011, 11:55 PM
Post #83 of 187 (1721 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
MY PCIT:
Deployed reserve with one hand and held the main in the pack with the other at the same time.

Wise guy, very smart at least.


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 4:41 AM
Post #84 of 187 (1693 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It might have made a difference if the freebag hadn't cleared the bridle But that's the heart of the problem with PCIT's - they're a crapshoot malfunction whether you cutaway or not.

And if it had entangled with the bridle, it's still very likely that you would have had a reserve deployment. Thats one of the reasons for the free bag system.

There is no way you're going to be able to affect any change on an main reserve entanglement when you've already cut away the main. 2 out is a much more manageable situation.

To really simplify it, more square footage is better than less.

From a standpoint of time it will take you about 2 seconds to locate grab and extract a breakaway handle if you've practiced you handle locations regularly. That's 400 ft of altitude lost in freefall. now add another second, to second and a half to locate and pull the reserve handle, plus 3 seconds for a reserve inflation. Thats 5 to 6 seconds or more, assuming your hand didn't slip off the breakaway handle, you were able to find it, you remembered to "peel, then punch" through the velcro, you located and pulled your reserve handle without trouble, and your pilot chute launched cleanly.

I think you did the right thing. Job well done. I assume you'd go straight to reserve if you were unable to locate your main handle? In that case how is this different?


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Feb 13, 2011, 5:14 AM
Post #85 of 187 (1687 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

good job tbrown...

i too,,, towed a PC. Long ago...
Hand deployed from a bellyband pouch....and of course before the dreaded TWisted Belly BAnd "phenomena" was common enough to be understood and avoided...Unimpressed
Got Lucky, when at about a grand i yanked the blasthandle and fired a 26 foot reserve up through the mess behind me which included the main bag and 5 or 6 feet of suspension lines. ( the PC had pulled through the twist, far enough to extract the pin and allow the main d bag to get away)...ShockedUnsureMad
I FELT the bag bouncing around on the back of my legs... I didn't cutaway . The rig was equippped with R 3s'Unimpressed That would have burned precious altitude... i DID however take a quick moment to get FLAT and squared away in the air, and as soon as the main bag fell back onto my legs, i fired the reserve..( piggyback rig ) I had been previously head down AND feet down and spinning, since i was hung from the hip, where the twist occured,,,,, nasty situation for sure...
i was lucky.... but i also maintained as much control of the situation as i could,,, and felt like my decisions to NOT "just fire the reserve" while spinning but rather get flat and stable again were sound ...
ymmv

OH yes... How was the 10 way dive????

jimmy


Decodiver  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 7:57 AM
Post #86 of 187 (1659 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If it's just a PCIT I may try and pull the pin myself (altitude permitting), if I'm through my hard deck or I can't reach the pin I'm going to reserve straight away.

Cheers,

Coops.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 8:19 AM
Post #87 of 187 (1651 views)
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Re: [Decodiver] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If it's just a PCIT I may try and pull the pin myself (altitude permitting), if I'm through my hard deck or I can't reach the pin I'm going to reserve straight away.

Cheers,

Coops.

Might want to rethink that one...if the pin is jammed in a way that the force of the pilot chute won't pull it, it's unlikely you will be able to by reaching back.

You'll more likely than not just be burning altitude and causing an instability problem you'll need to correct prior to reserve launch.



~Toss a pilot chute out the car window at 120 and try to hang onto it, THAT'S what pulling on the pin...Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Feb 13, 2011, 9:10 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 8:19 AM
Post #88 of 187 (1651 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Really glad you didn't dent yourself (or anything else) there, Tom.

I mean no disrespect to Jim or Dan; but for all the reasons stated in this thread in the "don't cutaway" column, I'd still consider a PCIT to be more of a total than a partial; and I'd go straight to silver. Less loss of altitude at terminal, and more nylon over my head when the shit from the fan is already spraying, seems the best bet for me.

And yeah; how was that 10-way?


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Feb 13, 2011, 8:20 AM)


Decodiver  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 8:32 AM
Post #89 of 187 (1640 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Airtwardo good advice thanks.

Bearing in mind I generally pull at 950-1000 meters by the time I've looked over my shoulder and ascertained what it is I'm at my hard deck and going silver, if it happened higher on the odd pull I do between 1500 - 2000 I'd probably try the pin.


(This post was edited by Decodiver on Feb 13, 2011, 8:34 AM)


PiLFy  (A License)

Feb 13, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #90 of 187 (1629 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, Newb questions I'm not seeing here. If the Main decides to deploy while the Reserve is inflating. Are you not dewercs? Would not cutting it away first, clear it out of the way? If it should open @that critical point? Also, I'm aware most biplanes are stable. Those biplanes usually have the reserve behind the main. Wouldn't the faster(?) main push the reserve in front of it, potentially causing a downplane?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 9:17 AM
Post #91 of 187 (1611 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK, Newb questions I'm not seeing here. If the Main decides to deploy while the Reserve is inflating. Are you not dewercs? Would not cutting it away first, clear it out of the way? If it should open @that critical point? Also, I'm aware most biplanes are stable. Those biplanes usually have the reserve behind the main. Wouldn't the faster(?) main push the reserve in front of it, potentially causing a downplane?

Some (the "cutaways") argue the point you raise. That possibility cannot eliminated.

Others (the "don't cutaways") say that if the main does deploy, that will be because the reserve launching from its container lessens the pressure against the top wall of the main container, allowing the main to launch. But by that sequence, the reserve will probably be inflated, or at least further into its deployment sequence, than the main. Then, at that point - when the reserve has decelerated you, or at least it's launched, you can still cut away the main. Also, if you're in a 2-out situation, you still can always cut away the main if it downplanes or if you don't want to risk the possibility of a last-moment downplane.

There's no single correct answer, which is why the PCIT is a nasty mal.

(p.s., I had to look up "dewercs" to know what you meant.)


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Feb 13, 2011, 9:18 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 13, 2011, 9:34 AM
Post #92 of 187 (1604 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would not cutting it away first, clear it out of the way?

Cutting away first takes away your ability to control any part of the main canopy. If you don't cut away first, you at least have the options of cutting away or not, and when if you do cutaway.

Think of it this way, two canopies deploying next to each other are like two loops. Up from one riser, across the canopy and down to the other riser. These two loops, without and free-swinging 'ends' can bump into each other, and exist without entanglment, as we have seen many times on CRW jumps. It's actually impressive some of the CRW collisions/collapses that clear themselves and leave two good canopies flying away from each other. Either way, that's essentailly what you have with two canopies deploying next to each other with no cutaway.

Now change that, and pull the cutaway first. Some point to the riser covers and unloaded 3-ring system as being likely to contain the risers, and keep them out of the way. This might be true, until the reserve risers deploy out from under the main risers, and shove them off to the side. If you cutaway, and the main stays put, the main risers are now free to swing around with as much line as they can pull from the main pack tray. Maybe not the best thing when deploying your last parachute (remember, even though your main is still in the container, you pulled the handle, so now it's just dead weight).

Scenario two, you pull the cutaway, and the force of the reserve either leaving the container or actually opening dislodges the main from the container, and the PC pulls it skyward, trailing lines, canopy and your risers (swinging all over the place) right past your last parachute. Now the concept of the two closed 'loops' is gone, and there are pieces and parts of the main free to grab, entangle or twist around anything it wants.

The solution is to not cut away. Leave the main connected, pull the reserve and deal with whatever happens. Maybe the risers and main stay put, and you have a 'normal' reserve ride to the ground, and you don't have to look for your main.

Maybe the main comes out at some point duruing the reserve deployment, again, it's a wait and see deal. If the main is inhibiting the inflation of the reserve, and you have a pair of streamers, you might need to cutaway at that point.

Maybe the canopies deploy right next to each other, and settle into a nice bi-plane, so you ride them both down and land 300+ sq ft of fabric.

Maybe they both inflate fully, and then start to fight each other, ending up in a downplane. You don't want to land that, but your advantage is that a downplane means the two canopies are as far apart as they can get, so a cutaway is likely to be clean, and you're left to land your reserve on it's own.

To summarize - cutaway first, and you have one option left, that being fire the reserve and see what happens. You can't do anything but that.

Fire the reserve first and see what happens, with the cutaway handle still in place as an option for you to deal with whatever you're looking at.

On top of it all is the time factor. A PC in tow is damn near terminal, so even a few seconds to locate and pull the cutaway handle will eat 100's of feet. Consindering the number of people who have gone in under partially infalted reserves, a couple hundred feet can literally make the difference between life and death.

Stop the ride, see what's what, proceed accordingly.


PiLFy  (A License)

Feb 13, 2011, 10:53 AM
Post #93 of 187 (1573 views)
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Re: [davelepka] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hu_boy... I'm glad I like to pull high. I'll have an extra sec to flip a coinUnsure. Thanx for the explanations, guys.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 13, 2011, 11:06 AM
Post #94 of 187 (1567 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

        H. Equipment emergency procedures

total malfunction

Note: Some schools teach partial malfunction procedures as an alternative to the following procedures for when the parachute has been activated but has failed to deploy.

1. Return to the arch position.

2. Ripcord systems: Discard the main ripcord if extracted.

3. Look for and locate the reserve ripcord handle.

4. Pull it all the way out to activate the reserve parachute.

5. Arch and check over the right shoulder for reserve pilot chute deployment.

partial malfunction

Note: On single-operation systems, pulling the reserve ripcord releases the main canopy first before deploying the reserve. Partial malfunction procedures for a single-operation system (SOS) are the same as for a total malfunction.

1. Check altitude.

2. Return to the arch position.

3. Ripcord systems only: Discard the main ripcord.

4. Locate and grasp the cutaway handle.

5. Locate the reserve ripcord handle.

6. Pull the cutaway handle until no lower than 1,000 feet.

7. Pull the reserve ripcord handle immediately after cutting away orby 1,000 feet, regardless of stability, to initiate reserve deployment.

8. Arch and check over the right shoulder for reserve pilot chute deployment.

9. Cut away above 1,000 feet.

a. If a malfunction procedure has not resolved the problem by then, deploy the reserve (requires a cutaway with an SOS system).

b. In the event of any malfunction and regardless of the planned procedure or equipment, the reserve ripcord must be pulled by no lower than 1,000 feet.

other unusual situations
1. Premature container opening in freefall (handdeployment only):

a. Attempt to locate and deploy the pilot chute first (no more than two attempts or two seconds, whichever comes first).

b. If the pilot chute can't be located after two tries or if deploying the pilot chute results in a partial malfunction, cut away and deploy the reserve.

2. Both parachutes deployed:

a. Biplane

(1) Do not cut away.

(2) Steer the front canopy gently using toggles or leave the brakes stowed and steer by pulling on the rear risers.

(3) Leave the brakes stowed on the back canopy.

(4) Make a parachute landing fall on landing.

b. Side-by-side (two alternatives)

side-by-side alternative one
If the two canopies are not tangled, cut away and fly the reserve to a safe landing.

side-by-side alternative two
(1) Steer the dominant (larger) canopy gently using toggles or leave the brakes stowed and steer by pulling on the rear risers.

(2) Leave the brakes stowed on the other canopy.

(3) Make a parachute landing fall on landing.

c. Downplane: Cut away the main canopy.
Illustration 4-A.4
Illustration 4-A.4. When both canopies deploy, they tend to stabilize into one of three configurations shown.

3. Canopy collision:

a. Jumpers must avoid collisions with other jumpers under open parachutes.

b. If a collision is imminent, in most cases both jumpers should steer to the right.

c. If two jumpers collide and entangle, they must communicate their intentions before taking further action.

d. If it is too low for a safe cutaway (below 1,000 feet) and thecanopies are uncontrollable, both jumpers should deploy their reserves.

Note: Deploying the reserve on a single-operation system necessitates a cutaway.

premature deployment in aircraft

1. The student should attempt to contain the open parachute and inform the instructor.

2. If the parachute goes out the door, the student must follow immediately before being extracted.

Its all in the sims section 4 cat A

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

This malfunction is a fast one. Not much time to think. Try to keep it as simple as possible Nothing out go to silver. Something out cut away and open reserve is what i was told. It is funny because when I went for my Tandem rating it was different. In tandem course they teach if Drogue is out but when pulling deployment handle if nothing happens go straight to reserve. Procedure is to not cut away. I always wondered why they teach the opposite in FJC and Tandem rating. Maybe its to keep it simpler for the student I don't know.


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Feb 13, 2011, 11:08 AM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Feb 13, 2011, 11:25 AM
Post #95 of 187 (1557 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just my personal take on this, not telling anyone what is the "right" answer, and part of this concerns your EP procedures (one hand on each handle vs both hands on each).
I've always been a one-hand-on-each, even though I was trained on an SOS system.
I've had 2 PCIT's. 1st time, when I brought in both hands, I could feel the main release, normal canopy. I was using a non-zp collapsable, but lots of jumps on it. Learned to replace non-zp pilot chutes on a regular basis, even if the PC and kill line look ok.
2nd time, a packer misrouted my PC bridle, container lock with PCIT. Brought both hands in, pull 1-pull 2. I was under canopy as high or higher than the other 12 people in our group. Learned to always check bridal routing when using a packer.
Qualifiers;
1. I exercise my three-rings once a month
2. I clean and lube my cut-away cable once a month
3. I jump a moderately loaded (1.5) stiletto. If my body position isn't perfect, which it probably won't be after executing EP's it always opens in a turn, 90-180.
I don't want my main wrapping itself around my reserve.
4. I do a quick EP practice on every jump, last thing I do before setting up in the door.
5. I can look, grab and pull both handles in 3 seconds or less.
My advice;
1. don't do things to get yourself unstable at/during/after pull time. Trying to reach around and feel for or grab your bridle is NOT the thing to do. Bringing in both hands will get you a little head down and will clear a pilot chute hesitation. Anything more is a waste of time and altitude.
2. learn to feel your deployment. This will let you know if something isn't right faster than waiting and looking. I can even feel if a packer left excess unstowed line.
3. don't buy into the "I don't need to vigorously toss my PC" school of thought. Tossing it out does two things, it gets the PC out into the cleanest air, and also pre-extends the bridle as much as possible, helping to avoid PC-in-the-burble and knots-entanglement of the bridle.
I'm not saying cut-then-deploy is always right for PCIT, just that it is the answer for me.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Feb 13, 2011, 11:35 AM
Post #96 of 187 (1553 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hu_boy... I'm glad I like to pull high. I'll have an extra sec to flip a coinUnsure. Thanx for the explanations, guys.
Time to decide which method will be your method. Then, practice, practice, practice.
Having to think about this when it's happening will burn a lot more altitude the executing EP's. Even USPA doesn't have one definitive answer for this one, but you better have one. Decide now which is right for you and don't 2nd guess this decision in the air.
Either solution is better than a too-low reserve deployment


PiLFy  (A License)

Feb 13, 2011, 11:43 AM
Post #97 of 187 (1549 views)
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Re: [ufk22] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I vas making Amerikanski joke. Thank You. I do realize this.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 12:23 PM
Post #98 of 187 (1541 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

My habit is to look to the right and see the PC pulling my main bag up. I don't think it causes much difference in my shoulders being level, and I bring my head back down as soon as I can. I think it is worth knowing that the main did actually lift off, plus I jump a big canopy that isn't so sensitive to body position.


JanuszPS  (D 568)

Feb 13, 2011, 1:03 PM
Post #99 of 187 (1534 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

There should be one more option - pull it yourself.

Quote:
Might want to rethink that one...if the pin is jammed in a way that the force of the pilot chute won't pull it, it's unlikely you will be able to by reaching back.

You'll more likely than not just be burning altitude and causing an instability problem you'll need to correct prior to reserve launch.

~Toss a pilot chute out the car window at 120 and try to hang onto it, THAT'S what pulling on the pin...Wink

I'm not an expert by any means with thousand of jumps, but I have completely different opinion based on my own experience.
One day I have swapped canopies in my container from Cobalt 120 to Cobalt 150 as I feel more comfy under 150 doing WS jumps. The container is Omega SS sized for canopies up to 150. I also extended the closing loop, but I was still struggled to close the container - took me more that two attempts. I thought that the PC is large enough to pull the pin from the loop no matter what (up to reasonable extend).
Because it was a cloudy day while getting closer to the clouds and opening altitude I decided that this time I will open above them thus higher than usually. So I collapsed all wings and pulled at about 1100-1000m and how surprise I was as nothing happened. While having collapsed wings I looked back and saw perfectly inflated PC in tow (I have .55 century, so no evidence on the video). I run quickly through the options and decided that I don't want to use the reserve - simple as that. So what was my next step? I moved both my arms symmetrically (not to cause any stability issues) to the main closing flap I touched the bridle (it is quite difficult to grab it) and before I realized the PC opened the container and inflation occurred with a twist which cleared itself. The fact is that it is difficult to pull the bridle, but is quite simple to push it to one side causing the pin movement.
I don't know what I would do if I was pulling at a normal altitude which is for me about 900/800m on a WS jump. I remember going though the options and the sequence of events was: pull the silver and than cut away for the sake of not having the two out in a WS jump as the container might be just closed by the very end of the pin.

That's the link to the very boring movie with cobalt openings including the one with PCIT, roll up to 2:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ-lw83XxbE
I arched and pulled at 2:18, I made up my mind at 2:20/21, than reached my back at 2:22/23 and the canopy was out at 2:24.

Since my AFF I have had one thought in my mind that if I have the PCIT, first I will try to help it open (altitude depending) and after one unsuccessful attempt I will go with the EP.
The same was with my mal. Few years ago there was a fatality of a quite experienced jumper who was in a spin under perfectly inflated canopy while spinning on his back due to the line twist - he fought till the impact. There was a list of the reasons why he died and recommendation what to do. So I made up my mind what to do in the situation like that and I had a plan. So when I was exactly in the same position, spinning 100km/h down on my back, after two attempts I just cut away. So for me the answer is, if you have some plan what to do in an identified situation you are one step ahead and follow your plan. If there are some other factors and deviations from your plan (ie. lower altitude, something unexpected etc) and you are surprised buy it, stick to the simple EP straight away which in my case would be the one written above.

Well, there is lots of wisdom in what all of you experienced guys are saying, but sometimes it seams that the less favourable options are better. The skydiving is a little bit of lottery and that day I took the third option which was correct. For me the reserve is the last resort, however I don't have any greater fear to use it as I've done it once before that jump. But I wanted so badly to be on the next load that I didn't bothered to use it ;-)

sorry for long post

regards

J.


(This post was edited by JanuszPS on Feb 13, 2011, 1:54 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 2:21 PM
Post #100 of 187 (1507 views)
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Re: [JanuszPS] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know what I would do if I was pulling at a normal altitude which is for me about 900/800m on a WS jump. I remember going though the options and the sequence of events was: pull the silver and than cut away for the sake of not having the two out in a WS jump as the container might be just closed by the very end of the pin

I don't see how the decision to cutaway first or not is affected by how much you think the pin might still be 'engaged'.


JanuszPS  (D 568)

Feb 13, 2011, 2:26 PM
Post #101 of 187 (1041 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because it's not. I just gave my sequence of actions, nothing more.
the possibility of main going out is quite high IMO and that's very unwanted for me doing WS, just right after opening with arms struggled by the wings.
j.

Edit
in fact there is at least two more options, not only those two given in the pull:
- pull reserve and cut away
- try to open it
- none from above (?)


(This post was edited by JanuszPS on Feb 13, 2011, 3:51 PM)


JanuszPS  (D 568)

Feb 13, 2011, 2:27 PM
Post #102 of 187 (1040 views)
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Re: [Decodiver] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If it's just a PCIT I may try and pull the pin myself (altitude permitting), if I'm through my hard deck or I can't reach the pin I'm going to reserve straight away.

Cheers,

Coops.

+ 1
j.


(This post was edited by JanuszPS on Feb 13, 2011, 2:54 PM)


tbrown  (D 6533)

Feb 13, 2011, 3:00 PM
Post #103 of 187 (1026 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

And yeah; how was that 10-way?
We did very well, finishing with the Bronze Medal against two formidable Gold & Silver Medal teams - just 4.9 seconds behind the Silver team. This was a 10 Way speed event; all that crap about flying your slot before taking grips is for another day. HUGE fun !

I tried to post a picture AND a vid of my cutting away the main, but have had no luck with either.


JanuszPS  (D 568)

Feb 13, 2011, 3:03 PM
Post #104 of 187 (1024 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I tried to post a picture AND a vid of my cutting away the main, but have had no luck with either.

that's a pity, there is nothing more educational than a nice piece of footage with the comments.
j.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 13, 2011, 3:37 PM
Post #105 of 187 (1021 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And yeah; how was that 10-way?

We did very well, finishing with the Bronze Medal against two formidable Gold & Silver Medal teams - just 4.9 seconds behind the Silver team. This was a 10 Way speed event; all that crap about flying your slot before taking grips is for another day. HUGE fun !

I tried to post a picture AND a vid of my cutting away the main, but have had no luck with either.
Post video on you tube and post the link here.


Ron

Feb 13, 2011, 4:00 PM
Post #106 of 187 (1015 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

My opinion: You can't land a PC in tow. Too many people have tried.

STOP the skydive and then fight what you have.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 13, 2011, 5:21 PM
Post #107 of 187 (1003 views)
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Re: [JanuszPS] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Because it's not. I just gave my sequence of actions, nothing more.
the possibility of main going out is quite high IMO and that's very unwanted for me doing WS, just right after opening with arms struggled by the wings.
j.

Edit
in fact there is at least two more options, not only those two given in the pull:
- pull reserve and cut away
- try to open it
- none from above (?)

What do you mean by "because it's not"?

Were you not saying what you would do and why?

Of course having both out is unwanted, whether doing WS or not. It is also unwanted to have the main risers or RSL shackle snag the reserve as they are dragged up along it.

Anyway, I understand that there are arguments to support both sides.


castle_bravo  (C License)

Feb 13, 2011, 5:53 PM
Post #108 of 187 (995 views)
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Re: [JanuszPS] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
there is nothing more educational than a nice piece of footage with the comments

Well, here I go then. I've gone over this recently revived thread, and though the wast majority of possible PCIT scenarios (either straight to silver or cutaway first) have already been voiced, I noticed that one rather exotic case has not yet been mentioned. That is, the case where your reserve PC deploys your main. Below goes my interpretation of the whole mess and a vid to support it.

The situation was as follows (this isnt 100% just my ideas):
1. main PC (it was cocked btw)entangles with bridle and therefore flies upside-down(thus no drag).
2. Attempted to a) catch bridle and pull pin via bridle by hand - attempt failed. b)hit container with elbow(been told it may help with pc in tow situations) - no use
3.since no main/or main d-bag out decided to go straight for reserve.
4.Reserve pc tangles with main pc
5. Since reserve pc entanglement with main pc ended up being by the bridle (I guess) - the drag from partially inflated reserve pc was transferred via entanglement to the main bridle and was sufficient to pull the main pin.
6. Main d-bag exits the container, reaches line stretch, reserve freebag(due to entanglement I suppose) follows main and lodges in twisted main lines.
7. Reserve freebag comes down as I kick it out from twists.
8. Reserve freebag is placed under armpit and held there until landing


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49M8hD472_I


oldrookie  (B License)

Feb 13, 2011, 6:41 PM
Post #109 of 187 (981 views)
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Re: [castle_bravo] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Shit

congratulations on surviving the whole ordeal.

What method do you use to pack the PC?
Any idea why the bridle tangled up with the PC?

Unfortunately, I am almost sure that your ability to have footage of this jump will raise some eyebrows, but I hope it does not distract from the fact that you were thinking clearly, and fast, under pressure.
Smile


castle_bravo  (C License)

Feb 13, 2011, 6:53 PM
Post #110 of 187 (979 views)
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Re: [oldrookie] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to fold the excess bridal, put it onto the PC and wrap the PC around it (a rigger taught me that, so if it sounds as poor packing, its just cause I cant properly describe it now). Now I switched to the Germain method. I was told it was either due to poor packing, poor throw or poor luck (or all three combined).

As for the camera thing, I already went thru the whole "you shouldn't be wearing a cam" thing. Generally, I'd agree, but its too educational in this case :]


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 13, 2011, 7:09 PM
Post #111 of 187 (970 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My opinion: You can't land a PC in tow. Too many people have tried.


I'm sorry but you are deffentlly wrong. To generalize a statement like this is foolish. I'm sorry.

I have seen a few pilotchutes in toe land. It's funny looking because you see a fully inflated pilotchute fling behind the jumper as they come in.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 13, 2011, 7:32 PM
Post #112 of 187 (961 views)
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Re: [castle_bravo] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

First let me say good job not giving up.

Their are reasons why we have BSR's I see you broke a few. Don't chance fate to many times my friend. Do you guys at that dz do gear checks before leaving the plane? The guy in front of you in yellow looked like his flap was half way coming out.

Just one question. Why did you wait to remove your toggle for so long?It also didn't look like you flared at all.


castle_bravo  (C License)

Feb 13, 2011, 7:48 PM
Post #113 of 187 (953 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

We do gear checks, but they're not mandatory, at the time I wasn't familiar with his container, so I couldn't tell if it was supposed to be that way (also, I kind of missed it).

As for the toggle thing, - I had my reserve freebag in my left hand/armpit and really didn't want to drop it accidentally, so I stirred with rear risers and the right toggle. Oh, and I did flare, yet it was a 100% down wind, landing, so I still had to roll a bit (also, I have no experience on landing in plowed fields... Unimpressed ).

Edited: grammar


(This post was edited by castle_bravo on Feb 13, 2011, 7:50 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 14, 2011, 3:27 AM
Post #114 of 187 (925 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This was a 10 Way speed event; all that crap about flying your slot before taking grips is for another day. HUGE fun !

If you ain't hittin' it hard, you ain't doin' it right.
LaughLaughLaugh

Look, fella...you're docking too softly. We'll have to replace you on the team.
UnsureWink


Ron

Feb 14, 2011, 6:00 AM
Post #115 of 187 (898 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm sorry but you are deffentlly wrong. To generalize a statement like this is foolish. I'm sorry.

You should read the second part again.

Quote:
I have seen a few pilotchutes in toe land. It's funny looking because you see a fully inflated pilotchute fling behind the jumper as they come in.

You have seen people land a reserve *with* a pilot chute in tow. If you saw a person land a pilot chute tow... Then you saw a fatality.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Feb 14, 2011, 7:41 AM
Post #116 of 187 (875 views)
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Re: [JanuszPS] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I tried to post a picture AND a vid of my cutting away the main, but have had no luck with either.

that's a pity, there is nothing more educational than a nice piece of footage with the comments.
j.

Not the video you're looking for, but here is a clip from yesterday's fun.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 14, 2011, 9:58 AM
Post #117 of 187 (853 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have seen people land a reserve *with* a pilot chute in tow. If you saw a person land a pilot chute tow... Then you saw a fatality.

You are so right. It might be different than landing a line-over....Wink


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 14, 2011, 11:51 AM
Post #118 of 187 (826 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My opinion: You can't land a PC in tow. Too many people have tried.


ok Again not true. You can land a pilot chute in tow. I have seen it and all are walking and talking. No where does your post say reserve pilot chute.

In reply to:
STOP the skydive and then fight what you have.
Agreed


Have a nice day Cool


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Feb 14, 2011, 11:54 AM)


Ron

Feb 14, 2011, 12:24 PM
Post #119 of 187 (805 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have seen it and all are walking and talking. No where does your post say reserve pilot chute.

No, you have seen (and so have I):

1. People land UNDER A RESERVE trailing a PC in tow malfunction.

2. People land UNDER A MAIN trailing a reserve PC in tow.

But a guy LANDING A PC IN TOW is going to hit the ground at 120 MPH... He is not going to survive.

Not that hard of a concept.... You are doing 120MPH at the ground with only a PC out. You are going to die unless you handle it.

For that reason, my opinion is to STOP the skydive first, then deal with the PC in tow issue.


JanuszPS  (D 568)

Feb 14, 2011, 12:32 PM
Post #120 of 187 (801 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

I explained tht question in the initial post. I just gave my sequence of actions which I think are best for ME.
What I mean is that in the case the reserve deploys w/o cut away, the main might go out due to the lesser pressure on the main pin - highly possible.
If the reserve for some reason does not deploy and you didn't cut away you still have something to work with.
If you cut away first and than have problems with the reserve there is nothing left to work on.
If I deploy reserve and just the main goes out right after the reserve it's not a good thing. But if my arms are not free from the wings is even worst.
So the degree of pressure on the main loop is one big unknown. But to prevent the very bad situation I would prefer to see/feel deploying reserve before cutting away. So in this case the degree of the pin engagement has nothing to my decision to cut away, but the fact that the reserve is opening and the risk of the two out nearly at the same time is high.
I would rather cut away the main straight after feeling/seeing the reserve even in the snivel just for sake of not having two out at the same time (deployment time) or right after with hands struggled by the wings. I was trained to use one hand for one handle during my AFF. For the WS I have been thought to collapse the wings, arch, deploy, keep the position while moving my arms to my chest (close to the handles not for no reason) and wait for deployment.
It is my opinion only (now I could put the warning sentence) and I do what I think is the best for me w/o putting others on a risk.
If I dont fly the WS I might wait or secure the main flap from opening as I have two hands to work with but still I wouldn't have any control during deloyment.
To be hones the PCIT situation was one of my worries while deciding to do WS jumps.
j.

Edit
In reply to:
Of course having both out is unwanted, whether doing WS or not. It is also unwanted to have the main risers or RSL shackle snag the reserve as they are dragged up along it.

Anyway, I understand that there are arguments to support both sides.
I have at least one less worry as I don't use RSL and any (other) MARD. I prefer simplicity of mine system and less variables in a difficult situation although my system was made by Performance Variable ;-) - that might explain the PCIT, Tongue. So I don't consider RSL disconnection in my sequence of actions.
j.


(This post was edited by JanuszPS on Feb 14, 2011, 12:50 PM)


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 14, 2011, 12:34 PM
Post #121 of 187 (806 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I have seen it and all are walking and talking. No where does your post say reserve pilot chute.

No, you have seen (and so have I):

1. People land UNDER A RESERVE trailing a PC in tow malfunction.

2. People land UNDER A MAIN trailing a reserve PC in tow.

But a guy LANDING A PC IN TOW is going to hit the ground at 120 MPH... He is not going to survive.

Not that hard of a concept.... You are doing 120MPH at the ground with only a PC out. You are going to die unless you handle it.

For that reason, my opinion is to STOP the skydive first, then deal with the PC in tow issue.[/reply

Geez Im sorry if I didnt state the obvious. Of course they had a parachute over their head. Hens landing not pounding in. My bad


JanuszPS  (D 568)

Feb 14, 2011, 12:36 PM
Post #122 of 187 (804 views)
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Re: [DSE] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks,
I'm not sure but it looks that he/she was struggled to find the PC at the first. Than the person was flying the WS after pulling PC. was that a student? what was the direct reason for PCIT?
j.


PiLFy  (A License)

Feb 14, 2011, 3:06 PM
Post #123 of 187 (775 views)
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Re: [castle_bravo] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was trying to remember where I saw this vid a few months ago. Thanks for re-posting it. I've decided. I'm not going to cut away first if this ever happens to me. Could we please change the subject now? All the dire scenarios & videos are starting to make me nervousTongue...


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 14, 2011, 3:36 PM
Post #124 of 187 (767 views)
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Re: [JanuszPS] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not understanding your logic.

In reply to:
If I deploy reserve and just the main goes out right after the reserve it's not a good thing. But if my arms are not free from the wings is even worst.

Near simultaneous deployments are not a good thing, that is correct, but it very often results in both deploying. I think that would be OK, even with your arms temporarily tied up by your WS, even if they both open in a down plane.

In reply to:
But if my arms are not free from the wings is even worst.

That is not the worst thing that can happen.

If you cutaway first, the main can no longer open and might hopelessly entangle on the reserve. I and many others think that is likely enough that not cutting away first is the best choice.

Wearing a WS complicates the situation slightly, however I'd rather have to deal with getting my hands free to deal with a 2 out than have to deal with getting my hands free to deal with a chopped main that has fouled my reserve.

Both scenarios can go completely, unrecoverably bad, but if cutting away made more sense as you say with a WS, then it would be the right choice without a WS.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Feb 14, 2011, 3:37 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Feb 14, 2011, 3:46 PM
Post #125 of 187 (759 views)
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Re: [JanuszPS] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a wingsuit student. Student has no problem finding the handle, it's that the BOC is far too tight, and it's a PUD-type handle with a locking tab (bad idea, IMO).
Add to it the container being overstuffed (160 in a 120/135 container, a too-short kill line, wingsuit burble...you have 12 seconds of "is it gonna...?"


JanuszPS  (D 568)

Feb 14, 2011, 5:05 PM
Post #126 of 187 (1356 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok,
I understand your logic, but disagree with the statement that it is nearly the same issue with or w/o the WS. Well I only experienced that once and I might not have enough experience in that and any other matter in this sport. I prefer just during/right after the reserve deployment prevent the bad thing and cut away main - just my choice of actions. W/o WS you can fly actively your openings using your body and hands. With WS you can't, or at least I can't in the same extend.
As some ppl say, only cows don't change their minds, so I take into consideration changing mine, but not at this moment.

Today I read very nice sentence (now in translation) expressed by one of the best women climber in the world of her time which applies to all risky activities:
"Life tests the best when you can loose it" +Wanda Rutkiewicz+.
It means that nothing in their sport is 100% safe and works perfectly similar to skydiving and the worst things happen.
One of those worst things is the entanglement of any type incl. both canopies, reserve and main while flying WS. Rare but still can occur the same as malfunctioned reserve after a main mal and cut away. And in my case when I barely touched the bridle and the main immediately opened, I can suspect that the main would have just opened right during the reserve deployment and went into the reserve.

Don't forget, I jump Performens Variable Wink

safe jumps and no PCIT
cheers
j.
sorry for bad English


Hellis

Feb 14, 2011, 11:04 PM
Post #127 of 187 (1326 views)
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Re: [DSE] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is a wingsuit student. Student has no problem finding the handle, it's that the BOC is far too tight, and it's a PUD-type handle with a locking tab (bad idea, IMO).
Add to it the container being overstuffed (160 in a 120/135 container, a too-short kill line, wingsuit burble...you have 12 seconds of "is it gonna...?"


That is some serious stacking the odds against you behaviour.


There is one video that was on skydivingmovies called breaking thru, that video had a very scary moment to.
I have not seen that video on youtube or vimeo so i cant link to it.
But he pulls the main, nothing happens, pulls the reserve, main deploys, reserve freebag seems to entangle with main, he lands right next to a eletric wire, trees and a road.
As a short explenation of the video.
But to me, in that case, it looks like a cutaway before he pulled the reserve would be a good idea.
But ofcourse you cant know that until its too late.

I have the video, but i dont want to upload it because its not my video.
At the end of the video it says its made by Josh Venning, so if anyone knows him you could perhaps ask him to upload that clip.


jrjny  (A License)

Feb 16, 2011, 9:54 AM
Post #128 of 187 (1267 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill Booth on the question:
http://www.youtube.com/...er_detailpage#t=343s

2011 PIA

edit: why magnetic riser covers?


(This post was edited by jrjny on Feb 16, 2011, 9:55 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Feb 16, 2011, 1:00 PM
Post #129 of 187 (1235 views)
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Re: [jrjny] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

WRT specifically Magnetic Riser Covers (versus tuck-tab), there was a whole thread recently dedicated to this, and a more in depth video embedded there as well, if that is the direction you are going, and/or looking at considering as any factor relevant to this thread anyway - already exists, HERE


tbrown  (D 6533)

Mar 12, 2011, 5:22 PM
Post #130 of 187 (1151 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

And if it had entangled with the bridle, it's still very likely that you would have had a reserve deployment. Thats one of the reasons for the free bag system.
I've since discovered that the main pilot chute was damaged badly enough that I've replaced it. There had to be enough friction heat going on to light a camp fire up there.

It makes me even more thankful for the freebag system and for how short square canopies are, compared to how long rounds are. If this whole thing had happened with the rig I was using thirty years ago, I'm thinking the round reserve may well have been trapped and/or too severely damaged to inflate. Bummer...

Safe skydiving is still more than just modern gear - but modern gear is SO much safer. Now if they could just cook up something new to prevent or cure the PCIT altogether !


(This post was edited by tbrown on Mar 12, 2011, 5:24 PM)


FanOfFalling  (B 6359)

Mar 12, 2011, 5:40 PM
Post #131 of 187 (1149 views)
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Re: [tbrown] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now if they could just cook up something new to prevent or cure the PCIT altogether !

Ballistic deployment system! Someone else can do the test jumps.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 12, 2011, 5:45 PM
Post #132 of 187 (1146 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had a couple. I automatically pulled my reserve without cutting away -- in those days, I didn't have a 3-ring, so it was more involved. I have a feeling I'd do the same thing again, but maybe not if I knew I was high enough.

Wendy P.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 16, 2011, 12:00 AM
Post #133 of 187 (998 views)
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Re: [wmw999] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

The OP asked what you would do and WHY.

Lots of "what I would do" and very little on "why."

I'm very surprised to see so many jumpers with such big jump numbers saying things along the lines of, "I'm cutting away first because I don't want the canopies to get entangled if the main comes out after the reserve."

That is not clear thinking in the big picture.

When you have a PCIT and you cutaway the main before it comes out of the container, what have you accomplished?

You've broken the main connection point and nothing more.

If the main comes out after you deploy the reserve, yes, the main could come out and inflate AND get entangled in the reserve.

That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway.

What IS different is how you would handle the entanglement. Cutaway first and you're hosed with no further options the second those main risers leave your reach.

What IS different is that you can still do the cutaway when/if the main comes out. Think about that and what's going to happen with the main when your reserve is already flying.

Also surprising is how so many are more afraid of the 2-out situation as compared to the entanglement.
Screw that. I'll take a 2-out over an entanglement any day and every day. I have a chance to safely land a 2-out...not so much on an entanglement.


Yes, YMMV. That's why USPA accepts either response as valid for a PCIT. Yes, Pros and Cons about each. I'm of the personal opinion that the pros outweigh the cons of one of them.

Any young jumpers reading this thread:

Your job is to handle this situation by using whatever method you were trained. After you gain more experience, get more comfortable in the sky, and gain more knowledge, you may reach a point where you will be able to make intelligent decisions for yourself on a "what's best for me" basis. The key phrase is "intelligent decisions."


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 16, 2011, 12:05 AM)


JackC1

Mar 16, 2011, 4:06 AM
Post #134 of 187 (985 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

^^ yup.

As I see it, with a PCIT I have an immediate problem that needs fixing, and that is I've blazed passed my pull altitude and I'm still in freefall. Chopping will not solve that problem or even improve things whereas pulling silver (hopefully) will. Fix the problem you've got.

If your main is still attached to you, then you retain the option to do something with it if you end up with two out. However, if you've already chopped and the departing main risers wrap around your reserve on their way past, there's not a lot else you can do.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Mar 16, 2011, 8:33 AM)


manseman  (D License)

Mar 16, 2011, 6:22 AM
Post #135 of 187 (957 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway.
Sure it is. An already cutaway main may not even leave the bag before the risers clear the harness. Better or worse? More or less risk of entanglement? Don't know, but it's clearly two different scenarios.


ps5601  (D 100131)

Mar 16, 2011, 6:40 AM
Post #136 of 187 (946 views)
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Re: [manseman] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

As someone who has had a pilot chute in tow, and cut away before pulling reserve, my rationale is simple.

Once I have started the deployment sequence for my main (which means I have pulled the main handle), if I have a problem I am chopping and then pulling reserve.

The only exception that I can think of to that at the moment is a horseshoe, which I would try (no more than twice) to clear, prior to doing EPs.

The argument (in my mind) that cutting away first wastes time is rubbish, as this takes only a fraction of a second, and unless you pulled your main really low it should not be of consequence. I'd probably waste more time checking an automatic cut away then just getting on with it.

The other argument - departing risers of the main could entangle the reserve as it deploys has merit - but once you are in pilot chute in tow situations you are in a pretty bad place and no-one knows the best course of action for sure.

Blue skies

Paul


piisfish

Mar 16, 2011, 6:50 AM
Post #137 of 187 (944 views)
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Re: [RTB] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a couple of PC's in tow, resolved them differently everytime because they were different...(pull the pin clear with the bridle, elbowed the dbag out etc.)
Then once it gave me a very bad spinning linetwists which I had to chop.
I learnt the "soft" way that you need to take care of your gear, and when your PC seems tired, it's time to retire it and replace with a young one. Never had the problem again.


DocPop  (C License)

Mar 16, 2011, 7:45 AM
Post #138 of 187 (928 views)
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Re: PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me that there is no right answer here (as acknowledged by the USPA) in that once in a PCIT situation you can't know if the right thing is to cutaway or not, until you have done it and seen the outcome.

My personal choice is not to alter my practiced EPs in the middle of a mal. I will cutaway and then deploy the reserve.

That decision could kill me, or it could save me. I won't know until it happens.

FWIW I jump a pull-out so technically I can't really have a PCIT. It would have to be an open container situation which would make it a horseshoe.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 16, 2011, 2:30 PM
Post #139 of 187 (885 views)
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Re: [manseman] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway.
Sure it is. An already cutaway main may not even leave the bag before the risers clear the harness. Better or worse? More or less risk of entanglement? Don't know, but it's clearly two different scenarios.

Excuse me. Please read again:
"If the main comes out after you deploy the reserve, yes, the main could come out and inflate AND get entangled in the reserve.

That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway. "


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 16, 2011, 2:37 PM
Post #140 of 187 (880 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems to me that there is no right answer here (as acknowledged by the USPA) in that once in a PCIT situation you can't know if the right thing is to cutaway or not,
...and that's the sad part, IMO, because people reject the reality of an entanglement outcome.

In reply to:
...until you have done it and seen the outcome.
...and that's the questionable part.
Please don't get the idea that just because it was handled one way, using one method, that is' going to go the same the next time using the same method.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 16, 2011, 3:07 PM
Post #141 of 187 (873 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
once in a PCIT situation you can't know if the right thing is to cutaway or not,

Given that, why make the choice that is final compared to the choice that you can modify at a later time. Once you pull the cutaway, there is no way to put it back. If you do not pull the cutaway, you still have the option to do it later if the need should arise.

With no load on the 3-ring, and nothing prompting you to cutaway, why do it?

What you are you afraid of, an entanglement? If you pull the cutaway before the reserve, you lose control over the main entirely. If it deciedes to deploy, it will do so and depart of it's own accord, maybe at an opportune time, maybe not.

If you leave the handle in place, and main deploys, you have the option to chop it or not, and if so, when to chop it. If you can achieve a stable side-by-side or bi-plane, then don't cutaway, just ride them both in. If they want to fight or downplane, get them seperated, and choose the ideal moment to cutaway when the risk of an entanglement is lowest.

If you're concerned about the main entangling with the reserve during deployment, and a situation occurs where they could entagle, they will likely do so if the main is connected or not. The difference is that if the main is connected, you can either control when to cutaway, or if the entanglement cannot be cleared, you're securely attached to both canopies, and ready to take advantage of the 'more square footage at impact' scenario.

It's just stupid to pull a handle that you have no reason to pull. You have a limited number of options available to you with regards to your handles, and to use one up for no reason just doesn't make sense. Stop the freefall, then see what happens.

Stopping the freefall is job one. Dealing with whatever transpires comes after that.


cderham  (D 29951)

Mar 16, 2011, 4:14 PM
Post #142 of 187 (852 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is directly responding to you DocPop but kinda is due to this statement Wink
In reply to:
My personal choice is not to alter my practiced EPs in the middle of a mal. I will cutaway and then deploy the reserve.

That decision could kill me, or it could save me. I won't know until it happens.

Good discussion on Skydive Radio show 119 I believe with Frankie from Skydive Chicago. Talks about his double mal due to cutting away a pilot chute in tow before reserve deployment.

direct show link:
http://hw.libsyn.com/...d=&l_mid=2011400


DocPop  (C License)

Mar 17, 2011, 6:05 AM
Post #143 of 187 (765 views)
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Re: [davelepka] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some good info there, Dave, and I can't disagree with anything that you say.

The only defense I have for my thoughts in the previous post are these:

1. I have not had a cutaway yet and I think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles). It is true to say that I am nervous about my first mal and the thought of having to consciously change my EPs in the middle of a high speed mal make me even more nervous.

2. I do think that a cutaway main is less likely to inflate if the D-bag escapes the container, compared with a main that is still "anchored" by the risers.

Please note that above is just my line of thinking and, as stated in my previous post, I acknowledge that it may turn out to be wrong on the day.

I hope you don't take this as dismissing your points, which are very valid, just trying to explain my thoughts.


DocPop  (C License)

Mar 17, 2011, 6:54 AM
Post #144 of 187 (754 views)
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Re: [cderham] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is directly responding to you DocPop but kinda is due to this statement Wink
In reply to:
My personal choice is not to alter my practiced EPs in the middle of a mal. I will cutaway and then deploy the reserve.

That decision could kill me, or it could save me. I won't know until it happens.

Good discussion on Skydive Radio show 119 I believe with Frankie from Skydive Chicago. Talks about his double mal due to cutting away a pilot chute in tow before reserve deployment.

direct show link:
http://hw.libsyn.com/...d=&l_mid=2011400

That is an interesting discussion.

However, n=1. It is not a scientific study and nobody can say what would have happened if his main had deployed without a cutaway.

Thanks for posting. Food for thought....


Ron

Mar 17, 2011, 8:56 AM
Post #145 of 187 (726 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1. I have not had a cutaway yet and I think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles).

Are you going to cutaway a hard pull as well? If not, then you already have two procedures and either one of those is applicable to a PCIT.

I personally, will pull the reserve first.... My line of thinking is that it is a high speed mal, and you get zero points for impact craters.

Additionally, I reserve the ability to cutaway as soon as I get a reserve over my head. So I still have some choices.

There is no right or wrong here.... I just want you to realize that if you are not going to cutaway a hard main pull that you already have two emergency procedures.


DocPop  (C License)

Mar 17, 2011, 9:00 AM
Post #146 of 187 (725 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
1. I have not had a cutaway yet and I think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles).

Are you going to cutaway a hard pull as well?

Yes, probably.

Would that be wrong?


Ron

Mar 17, 2011, 9:11 AM
Post #147 of 187 (723 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would that be wrong?

Wrong???? Depends on how you want to look at it.

I think so... the SIM agrees:

2. Procedures:

(a) In the case of no main pilot chute deployment (e.g., missing or stuck handle, ripcord system container lock), deploy the reserve.


The problem is with nothing out you are doing 120 MPH and quickly running out of time.

So for a TOTAL, the best practice is to stop the skydive by going directly to the reserve.

Now for a PCIT.... It is a gamble either way.
I treat a PCIT like a total since the speed and the time you have left is the same.


DocPop  (C License)

Mar 17, 2011, 9:15 AM
Post #148 of 187 (722 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks.

I can see that in a hard pull situation cutaway is unnecessary and wastes time/altitude.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 17, 2011, 9:28 AM
Post #149 of 187 (715 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Yes, probably.
>Would that be wrong?

I don't think so. It doesn't take much more time, it is the same scenario in both cases (so easier to train for) and can help avoid two-outs.


JackC1

Mar 17, 2011, 2:14 PM
Post #150 of 187 (668 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles).

I remember reading an incident report where some guy found, while in freefall, that his reserve handle was missing, completely gone. So his muscle memory kicked in and did what it was trained to do in the event of an emergency, he cut away his main. This did not improve the situation. So there he was in freefall, with no main and no way to pull his reserve. He said he'd even identified the exact point in the field where he would bounce when his AAD came to the rescue.

Muscle memory is all well and good but you need to be able to override it with your brain memory.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Mar 17, 2011, 2:24 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Mar 17, 2011, 2:32 PM
Post #151 of 187 (761 views)
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Re: [JackC1] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Muscle memory is all well and good but you need to be able to override it with your brain memory.

That's great in theory, but until I am in a situation when this decision needs to be made, I cannot be sure how I will react. I most probably will be fine - I am not a stranger to high-stress environments - but I have not had to handle this one yet.

I have not been convinced that sticking with "pulling the handles in order" is a bad idea. I fully understand that there are situations when it could turn out to be bad, but those situations are only identifiable with hindsight.

BTW - the jumper in your example above would probably have been fine if he had pulled his handles in order. Chances are he would not have got to handle #2.

Please note that I am not advocating that anyone else adopt my way of thinking - just throwing it out there.

Remember: Always cock you pilot chute; but don't shoot your pilot's cock.


JackC1

Mar 17, 2011, 2:50 PM
Post #152 of 187 (756 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BTW - the jumper in your example above would probably have been fine if he had pulled his handles in order. Chances are he would not have got to handle #2.

The guy definitely fucked up. The point being, he didn't think it through, he just identified an emergency and executed his muscle memory trained emergency procedures, nearly executing himself in the process.

I tend to put more stock in thinking fast and doing right, than robotically pulling handles in a certain order.

But if all you are ever going to do in any emergency is chop and then pull silver, why not simplify the whole job and have an SOS system?


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Mar 17, 2011, 2:55 PM
Post #153 of 187 (753 views)
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Re: [JackC1] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But if all you are ever going to do in any emergency is chop and then pull silver, why not simplify the whole job and have an SOS system?

There are cases when you don't pull the silver.Tongue


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 21, 2011, 2:24 AM
Post #154 of 187 (690 views)
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Re: [JackC1] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I tend to put more stock in thinking fast and doing right, than robotically pulling handles in a certain order

I tend to put my stock in training.

That adrenaline rush is going to affect your thinking speed and you may find that your altitude burned off faster than your thinking speed realized.

Doesn't matter what your problem is....train yourself on the ground how to handle it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 21, 2011, 2:34 AM
Post #155 of 187 (687 views)
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Re: [DocPop] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.... but until I am in a situation when this decision needs to be made, I cannot be sure how I will react.
This is understandable but very, very worrisome.
It tells me that you have not drilled yourself well enough to know what you will do.


In reply to:
I most probably will be fine
Most probably? Hmmmmm......not good.
You can change those odds into more favorable ones with training coupled with mental and physical drills.


- I am not a stranger to high-stress environments - but I have not had to handle this one yet.

In reply to:
I have not been convinced that sticking with "pulling the handles in order" is a bad idea.
Nobody has said its a bad idea. Proponents have provided various reasonings for both options.

In reply to:
I fully understand that there are situations when it could turn out to be bad, but those situations are only identifiable with hindsight.
Nope....foresight is the key.
But I do understand what you are saying, though...if it turns out bad, the arm-chair quarterbacks will be questioning the choice made.


Ron

Mar 21, 2011, 8:43 AM
Post #156 of 187 (648 views)
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Re: [JackC1] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I tend to put more stock in thinking fast and doing right, than robotically pulling handles in a certain order.

That is ideal, yet years of incident reports have shown that when all hell breaks lose, a good number of otherwise smart people do not think.

Due to this, I train myself to act a certain way given certain situations. The trick is to think BEFORE you need to act, when you are clam and rational, and then drill those solutions till they are robotic.

Of course... thats just my opinion and your mileage may vary.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Mar 21, 2011, 10:08 AM
Post #157 of 187 (628 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I tend to put more stock in thinking fast and doing right, than robotically pulling handles in a certain order

I tend to put my stock in training.

That adrenaline rush is going to affect your thinking speed and you may find that your altitude burned off faster than your thinking speed realized.

Doesn't matter what your problem is....train yourself on the ground how to handle it.

This is the ENTIRE point of training. Muscle memory and unconscious competence make for a solid response in an emergency. Otherwise, why bother?


JackC1

Mar 21, 2011, 10:51 AM
Post #158 of 187 (620 views)
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Re: [DSE] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is the ENTIRE point of training. Muscle memory and unconscious competence make for a solid response in an emergency. Otherwise, why bother?

That's fine so long as your muscle memory doesn't turn into unconscious incompetence.

Take a canopy wrap for example. Is it better to blindly start pulling handles the second you find yourself with a face full of nylon; or is it better to take a split second to think how high you are, and maybe communicate with the other guy before deciding the best course of action? At 7000 ft, you've probably got time to organise yourself and do the right thing; at 200 ft, a no-brain muscle memory chop may well kill you both.

All I'm saying is don't blindly trust muscle memory to solve all your problems, at least remain open to the idea that occasionally it might be a good idea to run the plan past your brain memory first.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Mar 21, 2011, 11:01 AM
Post #159 of 187 (616 views)
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Re: [JackC1] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
This is the ENTIRE point of training. Muscle memory and unconscious competence make for a solid response in an emergency. Otherwise, why bother?

That's fine so long as your muscle memory doesn't turn into unconscious incompetence.

Take a canopy wrap for example. Is it better to blindly start pulling handles the second you find yourself with a face full of nylon; or is it better to take a split second to think how high you are, and maybe communicate with the other guy before deciding the best course of action? At 7000 ft, you've probably got time to organise yourself and do the right thing; at 200 ft, a no-brain muscle memory chop may well kill you both.

All I'm saying is don't blindly trust muscle memory to solve all your problems, at least remain open to the idea that occasionally it might be a good idea to run the plan past your brain memory first.

Hopefully your traing for CRW included a discussion and contrived scenarios. Mental prep and cognitive awareness are a significant aspect of muscle memory, no?


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 21, 2011, 11:10 AM
Post #160 of 187 (609 views)
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Re: [DSE] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most automatic reactions have to be tempered with thought, because sometimes a given situation just isn't what you imagined could happen.

What if that faceful of canopy isn't because of planned CRW, but instead because someone above you cut away and happened to open facing you? That's low on the likely tree, but still possible.

To me, the reason to drill and think about things is because drill and thought already conducted take less time than something you have to figure out. So even if you're faced with a situation you didn't imagine, if you have a bunch of well-understood and well-used tools to deal with it, your chances go up.

Wendy P.


JackC1

Mar 21, 2011, 11:21 AM
Post #161 of 187 (606 views)
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Re: [DSE] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Mental prep and cognitive awareness are a significant aspect of muscle memory, no?

Not the way I see it no. Muscle memory is there so that when your brain tells you it's time to pull, your muscle memory knows where to find the hackey, to pull it out and then let go of it without conciously having to fumble for the handle, remember how it works and then not to shove it down your jumpsuit like you did when you jumped rip cord kit. Immediately prior to, and post all muscle memory events, your brain has to be engaged (and preferably during as well).

If you go to perform your emergency drills and you chop but your harness moves and you grab your main lift web instead of your reserve handle and you blindly rely on muscle memory (as per my definition), it won't do you any good. You need to override that fundamental muscle memory urge to pull harder with a bit of brain power in order to realise you've not got hold of the handle. People have gone in like this precisely because they forgot to think.

I worry that the dz.com mantra of "muscle memory, muscle memory, muscle memory" can be mistaken for advice that you don't need to think because your muscles will remember what to do. That's fine so long as everything works the way your muscles remember. As soon as something deviates from that memory, you're in deep shit unless your brain can come to the rescue. So don't turn off the brain.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Mar 21, 2011, 11:43 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 21, 2011, 12:49 PM
Post #162 of 187 (584 views)
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Re: [JackC1] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...That's fine so long as your muscle memory doesn't turn into unconscious incompetence.

Take a canopy wrap for example. Is it better to blindly start pulling handles the second you find yourself with a face full of nylon; or is it better to take a split second to think how high you are, and maybe communicate with the other guy before deciding the best course of action?
Depends, Jack.
Were you trained to blindly start pulling handles?
I don't think so.
Were you trained to check alti and evaluate, communicate then respond?
Yes...that's what you drill.
Are you calling that "muscle memory"?



In reply to:
At 7000 ft, you've probably got time to organise yourself and do the right thing; at 200 ft, a no-brain muscle memory chop may well kill you both.
Again...nobody, that I know of anyway, was trained to for no-brain muscle memory responses. There is always an evaluation step in there that makes use of the brain...there are no blind "muscle memory" responses to any problem.
If one does what you describe, they are not following their training....simple as that.

In reply to:
it might be a good idea to run the plan past your brain memory first.
It appears that you are saying that people are trained to ignore the evaluation part of a problem. Not so.
IMO, the simple muscle memory comes into play after the evaluation....for example:
Evaluation: "Here's what I got"
Muscle memory: "Now here's what I do" (without having to think about all the minute detail of every movement or action.)

Please, let's not confuse the young jumpers who may be reading this thread.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 21, 2011, 12:50 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 21, 2011, 1:08 PM
Post #163 of 187 (578 views)
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In reply to:
Not the way I see it no. Muscle memory is there so that when your brain tells you it's time to pull, your muscle memory knows where to find the hackey, to pull it out and then let go of it without conciously having to fumble for the handle, remember how it works and then not to shove it down your jumpsuit like you did when you jumped rip cord kit. Immediately prior to, and post all muscle memory events, your brain has to be engaged (and preferably during as well).
OK...now that I read this part, I agree

In reply to:
If you go to perform your emergency drills and you chop but your harness moves and you grab your main lift web instead of your reserve handle and you blindly rely on muscle memory (as per my definition), it won't do you any good. You need to override that fundamental muscle memory urge to pull harder with a bit of brain power in order to realise you've not got hold of the handle.
But now you're back to missing that evaluation part.

Don't you train your students to look for those handles before that start grabbing all kinds of stuff?

In reply to:
People have gone in like this precisely because they forgot to think
I would argue that...
-they didn't follow their training, or
-that they were not trained properly, or
-that they did not drill themselves on what methods they were trained.
-that they, as you point out, let the brain lock up on themselves


In reply to:
I worry that the dz.com mantra of "muscle memory, muscle memory, muscle memory" can be mistaken for advice that you don't need to think because your muscles will remember what to do.
I think you're off track on most of this. "Muscle memory" is not a DZ.com mantra.

I think you're off-track because nobody is trained that they don't have to think.

Your point of not turning off the brain is central to successful EPs. It is unfortunately somewhat buried in your comments. It could have been made without the diatribe against muscle memory.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 21, 2011, 1:10 PM)


JackC1

Mar 21, 2011, 1:11 PM
Post #164 of 187 (575 views)
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In reply to:
Please, let's not confuse the young jumpers who may be reading this thread.

That is exactly my point. I'm not redefining the term "muscle memory", my concern is that other people here are.

Muscle memory, also known as motor learning, is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort.

Note the phrases "consolidating a specific motor task" and "without concious effort".

Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find it without thinking. Muscle memory does not extend to the concious act of deciding it's pull time so I need to reach for my hackey.

With reserve drills, muscle memory is that which allows you to peel then punch without thinking. It does not extend to the act of deciding I need to cut away.

Around here, the term muscle memory seems to imply everything from pulling handles all the way through to perceiving a problem, analysing what it is, deciding on the best course of action and then pulling handles.

Anyone coming here thinking they know what muscle memory means will be confused by your definition. I'm just trying to point that out.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Mar 21, 2011, 1:24 PM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 21, 2011, 1:17 PM
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Quote:
Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find it without thinking...
With reserve drills, muscle memory is that which allows you to peel then punch without thinking
I would agree.

Wendy P.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 21, 2011, 3:19 PM
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In reply to:
Quote:
Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find it without thinking...
With reserve drills, muscle memory is that which allows you to peel then punch without thinking
I would agree. Wendy P.

Sure, but you and I know that doesn't necessarily mean that muscle memory equals ONLY cutting-away in an emergency situation. When I trained in the 70s on mil-surp gear with chest-mounted reserves, I was trained to have 2 muscle memories in case of a malfunction: cut-away with shot-and-a-halfs on a partial mal, and go straight to reserve on a total. I wasn't confused. As luck would have it, my first mal on that gear was a total. I didn't hesitate by feinting toward my Capewells; I went straight to reserve.

When I got recurrent on modern gear, I kept the "go straight to reserve" for totals, hard pulls and PCITs. I reinforce that training regularly. If I have a hard pull or PCIT on modern gear, I don't think I'll hesitate toward my cutaway handle, I'll just go straight for silver.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 21, 2011, 3:34 PM
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The other parts in that post that I agreed with were that the judgment of which pieces of muscle memory should be drilled, but they're not muscle memory.

Because I'm in complete agreement with you. Except that I didn't have a total for my first mal, it was a partial. I cut away (R2's), but went straight into the prescribed fetal position for my reserve pull. Except, of course, that I"d gotten a piggyback not to long before -- muscle memory was NOT my friend Smile. Fortunately, there were no consequences. But I did hang in the harness a few times after that, and re-thought that whole muscle memory thing.

Wendy P.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 21, 2011, 3:45 PM
Post #168 of 187 (526 views)
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Re: [JackC1] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find
>it without thinking. Muscle memory does not extend to the concious act of
>deciding it's pull time so I need to reach for my hackey.

In some cases it does. Even experienced jumpers will automatically open their mains when they find themselves low, even if they are very close to AAD activation altitude. They don't think, they just act.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 21, 2011, 3:53 PM
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+1 for JackC1, for the idea that "muscle memory" is sometimes used for too broad a range of things, including the decision making process. The term gets used a lot, with skydivers not being clear what is meant by it.


JackC1

Mar 21, 2011, 4:45 PM
Post #170 of 187 (512 views)
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In reply to:
>Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find
>it without thinking. Muscle memory does not extend to the concious act of
>deciding it's pull time so I need to reach for my hackey.

In some cases it does. Even experienced jumpers will automatically open their mains when they find themselves low, even if they are very close to AAD activation altitude. They don't think, they just act.

True. In this case, it might be better to go for your reserve but at least they registered that they need something out asap and got on with it.

But here's another example where muscle memory might not be the best thing. Suppose you dump at a reasonable altitude and get a spinning malfunction with line twists. You decide to chop and go for your cut away handle. Due to the line twists, it's a hard pull and your hand slips off the cutaway pad without completing the pull. Your right hand thinks it's job is done as it's shot out to full extension so the left hand starts to go through with it's part of the process. If muscle memory is left to it's own devices you could well end up with two out. But if the brain can recognise an incomplete chop and override the muscle memory, you might be able to rewind and try again, averting a more serious problem.

I still think the most important muscle to get drilled is the grey mushy one between your ears.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Mar 21, 2011, 6:26 PM
Post #171 of 187 (496 views)
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In reply to:
The other parts in that post that I agreed with were that the judgment of which pieces of muscle memory should be drilled, but they're not muscle memory.

Because I'm in complete agreement with you. Except that I didn't have a total for my first mal, it was a partial. I cut away (R2's), but went straight into the prescribed fetal position for my reserve pull. Except, of course, that I"d gotten a piggyback not to long before -- muscle memory was NOT my friend Smile. Fortunately, there were no consequences. But I did hang in the harness a few times after that, and re-thought that whole muscle memory thing.

Wendy P.

I guess my school of thought says that muscle memory teaches to enact a certain set of behaviors once a decision has been made. You still have to make decisions.
If (to you) "muscle memory" is defined by action without prior thought and a decision process, then you're right and I'm entirely wrong. In my view, muscle memories are tools we choose to use after evaluating a scenario and making a decision as to which set of previously-trained actions are the best for a given scenario.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 22, 2011, 7:59 AM
Post #172 of 187 (449 views)
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In reply to:
In some cases it does. Even experienced jumpers will automatically open their mains when they find themselves low, even if they are very close to AAD activation altitude. They don't think, they just act.

WoooHooo! An excellent example!
They forgot their training....which yes, includes thinking.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 22, 2011, 8:18 AM
Post #173 of 187 (439 views)
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In reply to:
Anyone coming here thinking they know what muscle memory means will be confused by your definition. I'm just trying to point that out.

Besides the fact that I have yet to define "muscle memory" (you did a good job of it), I took your comment to heart and asked 4 young jumpers to read our posts to see if they understood what was being said.
None had any problem understanding either of us.

I retract my comment along those lines to you about that.

Funnily enough, one commented, "What are you guys arguing about? You're saying the same thing!"
LaughLaugh


Ron

Mar 22, 2011, 8:30 AM
Post #174 of 187 (428 views)
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Quote:
WoooHooo! An excellent example!
They forgot their training....which yes, includes thinking.

Still, it is better to toss out a main when low than take the time to think about what to do and then reach for a handle that you have not pulled several times.

I was on my back filming a guy once.... When he pulled I saw the horizon pass my feet. I rolled over to my left and thought "RESERVE!!!!" by the time I got to the middle of that thought, my main was opening. I had instinctively rolled pilot chute side up and tossed while on my side.

I had 300ish jumps at the time.... 300 main pulls and no real life reserve pulls.

I was open around 300-400 feet. If I had not tossed my main... I am almost 100% sure I would be dead.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Mar 22, 2011, 8:57 AM
Post #175 of 187 (423 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In some cases it does. Even experienced jumpers will automatically open their mains when they find themselves low, even if they are very close to AAD activation altitude. They don't think, they just act.

WoooHooo! An excellent example!
They forgot their training....which yes, includes thinking.

And here's an actual example deploying a main very low when faced with no time to think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiGdqPfztsc.

If he was falling 100 ft to the north, I suspect he would have hit that ridge, and way too fast. A reserve pull instead at the same instant might have been better, but I do wonder if he could have done it: some time would have been consumed deciding, and I bet his muscle memory deploying his main was faster than going for his less familiar reserve.


JackC1

Mar 22, 2011, 3:49 PM
Post #176 of 187 (570 views)
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In reply to:
Funnily enough, one commented, "What are you guys arguing about? You're saying the same thing!"
LaughLaugh


LaughLaughCool Well, that settles it then I guess! I'll get my coat.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 22, 2011, 4:56 PM
Post #177 of 187 (561 views)
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Re: [Divalent] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A reserve pull instead at the same instant might have been better, but I do wonder if he could have done it:
Yes, it would have been better and of course he could have done it and had he done so, he would have had a good canopy over his head in less loss of altitude.

I'd suggest that you train yourself to respond properly in this, and every, situation....and every other situation that you can imagine.

Does it guarantee anything? No. It does greatly increase your odds of survival.

In reply to:
...some time would have been consumed deciding
Not if he had been up to speed (so to speak) on EPs

Note: Get off the "time" idea and start thinking in terms of altitude.

In reply to:
and I bet his muscle memory deploying his main was faster than going for his less familiar reserve.
Same as above.

THIS is a situation where the whole talk about "muscle memory" comes into play. The point was made that blindly depending on "muscle memory" could get your butt into serious trouble. That's because the "muscle memory" was not ingrained for this situation. It's obvious to me that these situations point to a shortage of drilling for EPs.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 22, 2011, 5:07 PM)


sacex250

Mar 22, 2011, 6:41 PM
Post #178 of 187 (558 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's an idea, let's simplify this whole argument with a new hypothetical poll:

Do you consider a pilot chute-in-tow to be a high-speed parachute malfunction along the lines of a bag lock or horseshoe, or is it a high-speed container malfunction along the lines of a hard pull or lost handle?

It seems to me that your personal answer to that question would determine which EP is used.

(1) Obviously, the most immediate risk during a pilot chute-in-tow, whether or not there is a cutaway, is that the reserve pilot chute might get entangled with the main pilot chute fouling the reserve deployment - a bad, bad situation. There is no advantage to having cutaway the risers at this point.

(2) Having avoided (1), the next biggest risk is that during or after deployment of the reserve, the pilot chute-in-tow spontaneously clears causing the main to deploy resulting in a two-out situation with three possibilities: both parachutes operate normally, one or both parachutes malfunctions, or they become entangled. During the reserve deployment, there is only a small window of opportunity for the main to foul the reserve prior to opening shock, reserves are required to be open in three seconds, so entanglement can only occur within about a two second window. Again, there is no advantage to having already cut-away a perfectly good parachute that hasn't malfunctioned yet. If they don't entangle, it's now a two-square situation with its own EP's based on the situation.

If one of the parachutes malfunctions, preferably the main, it can still be cut-away if necessary. If it's the reserve that malfunctions then there is no advantage to having already cut-away a perfectly good main parachute.

If the parachutes entangle then there is no advantage to only hanging from one entangled parachute instead of two. What if the main suddenly inflates and gets ripped away from the reserve and you're not attached to it? Is the reserve going to untangle and reinflate in time, i.e. before ground contact?

Why cut-away a parachute that hasn't malfunctioned yet, especially, if cutting it away has no immediate effect on improving the odds of a successful reserve deployment?

To me, it's a high-speed container malfunction with an appropriate EP, the same as a lost handle, in this case an extremely lost handle. Don't cutaway, pull reserve, but be ready to cut-away the main at any time if it should suddenly deploy before you're on the ground.


JackC1

Mar 23, 2011, 2:00 AM
Post #179 of 187 (530 views)
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In reply to:
THIS is a situation where the whole talk about "muscle memory" comes into play. The point was made that blindly depending on "muscle memory" could get your butt into serious trouble. That's because the "muscle memory" was not ingrained for this situation. It's obvious to me that these situations point to a shortage of drilling for EPs.

Muscle memory is built by performing a specific motor task over and over until it requires no conscious effort and it's built whether you like it or not. The default knee jerk reaction to 'pull time' is to dump your main. This is because actually pulling your main at pull time will most likely have been repeated hundreds of times for every once you actually pull your reserve at pull time, so the default association is when it's pull time go for your main. Expecting a reserve pull to become the default reaction is unrealistic unless you've drilled hundreds and hundreds of reserve pulls for every main pull you've ever done. That's how muscle memory works and that's why it will occasionally drop you in the shit.

Muscle memory is great when you need to perform a specific motor task efficiently without thinking about it. It's utterly rubbish at deciding which motor task is the correct one to use because it will always pick the one it's done more of.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Mar 23, 2011, 3:02 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Mar 23, 2011, 8:19 AM
Post #180 of 187 (483 views)
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In reply to:

Muscle memory is great when you need to perform a specific motor task efficiently without thinking about it. It's utterly rubbish at deciding which motor task is the correct one to use because it will always pick the one it's done more of.

I agree, to a point. Muscle memory without mental input can indeed create problems.
'Muscle memory' typically refers to how we train our brains for successful physical endeavors through repetition of activity. There is a difference between being "automatic" and being in "full-autopilot" modes.
Part of muscle memory training includes "if>then."
Sure...some people pull cutaway before pulling silver; if they trained to recognize various scenarios BEFORE they occur, then the memorized responses/outcomes would likely be different. Put in a different light, muscle memory comes in to play during urgent situations and police officers. If they discharged their weapon at every time they drew their firearm...we'd have different training mechanisms for them. Instead, they're trained to prepare for the need, make decisions based on the information they have, and proceed with action A, B, or C.
But it's still all part of the library of muscle memory to which they/we have access via our training.


kuai43  (C License)

Mar 23, 2011, 9:24 AM
Post #181 of 187 (472 views)
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Re: [DSE] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Muscle memory is great when you need to perform a specific motor task efficiently without thinking about it. It's utterly rubbish at deciding which motor task is the correct one to use because it will always pick the one it's done more of.

I agree, to a point. Muscle memory without mental input can indeed create problems.
'Muscle memory' typically refers to how we train our brains for successful physical endeavors through repetition of activity. There is a difference between being "automatic" and being in "full-autopilot" modes.
Part of muscle memory training includes "if>then."
Sure...some people pull cutaway before pulling silver; if they trained to recognize various scenarios BEFORE they occur, then the memorized responses/outcomes would likely be different. Put in a different light, muscle memory comes in to play during urgent situations and police officers. If they discharged their weapon at every time they drew their firearm...we'd have different training mechanisms for them. Instead, they're trained to prepare for the need, make decisions based on the information they have, and proceed with action A, B, or C.
But it's still all part of the library of muscle memory to which they/we have access via our training.

Don't confuse muscle memory with conditioned actions. Reaching for, grasping, and pulling a handle is muscle memory. The decision to do so is a conditioned reaction. You use muscle memory every time you don't stab yourself in the cheek with your fork.

Having taught martial arts for quite a number of years, I'm very familiar with the difference between the two. For example, if someone lunges for you with a high-section punch, your conditioned reaction will enable you to stab them painfully in the ribs with an effective side kick - if you have trained the mechanics of the kick (muscle memory) with a great many correct repetitions.

Muscle memory is simple. It does not and should not require cognitive mental input. On the other hand, conditioned responses are complicated. The majority of what you're talking about are those.


Ron

Mar 23, 2011, 9:52 AM
Post #182 of 187 (471 views)
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Re: [sacex250] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you consider a pilot chute-in-tow to be a high-speed parachute malfunction along the lines of a bag lock or horseshoe, or is it a high-speed container malfunction along the lines of a hard pull or lost handle?

It seems to me that your personal answer to that question would determine which EP is used.

This is key... for me it is a high speed container malfunction.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 24, 2011, 3:07 PM
Post #183 of 187 (413 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had personally, been long in the camp of: "If I know I've extracted/pulled/thrown anything (i.e. not a "total") - then I am cutting first."

However, I am now seriously re-considering this, after having recently viewed a 1st-person, POV video by Mike McGowan - of what actually happened to him, when he himself indeed did do this (pitched into a PC-in-tow; cut-away & deployed reserve). Video can be seen, here:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1312283403059


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Mar 24, 2011, 3:08 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 24, 2011, 3:53 PM
Post #184 of 187 (400 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had personally, been long in the camp of: "If I know I've extracted/pulled/thrown anything (i.e. not a "total") - then I am cutting first."

However, I am now seriously re-considering this, after having recently viewed a 1st-person, POV video by Mike McGowan - of what actually happened to him, when he himself indeed did do this (pitched into a PC-in-tow; cut-away & deployed reserve). Video can be seen, here:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1312283403059

It would be very educational if a 'dummy' skydiver could be rigged up to repeatedly do testing of this situation - if a reserve deployment is quickly followed by an already chopped main, how often it will foul the reserve as happened to Mike McGowan.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 25, 2011, 5:37 AM
Post #185 of 187 (366 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am now seriously re-considering this, after having recently viewed a 1st-person, POV video by Mike McGowan - of what actually happened to him, when he himself indeed did do this (pitched into a PC-in-tow; cut-away & deployed reserve).

First off, you have to admit that Mike always get the shot. He never comes home without good footage in the can.

Back to the topic, that's where the loss of control over your main comes into play. Cutting away removes any measure of control you had over your main canopy, and leaves it's actions up to 'chance'.

In Mike's case, the PC-in-tow cleared, the main began to deploy and depart (as cutaway mains do), and the risers grabbed the reserve slider on the way by. other examples I've seen have had the risers grab the reserve canopy itself as the main tried to exit the situation.

The point is that until you are flying forward under a fully inflated reserve, most of the relative wind is directed upwards, in the direction of your deploying last parachute, and that's the same direction anything you cutaway is also going to go.

To those that argue that cutaway risers will release before the canopy leaves the bag because there's no anchor point for the bag to pull against, fine. In this case, it was the risers, not the canopy or PC, that caught the slider on the way by. Who knows, maybe the canopy was in the bag until the risers grabbed the reserve slider and used that as an anchor point to pull the bag off the canopy.

Any way you slice it, you're better off retaining control over your main canopy. If it gives you a reason to cut it away, and you can do so without risk of fouling your last canopy, then by all means pull the handle, but until such time, leave it alone and keep your main securely attached to your rig.


Ron

Mar 25, 2011, 6:38 AM
Post #186 of 187 (354 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It would be very educational if a 'dummy' skydiver could be rigged up to repeatedly do testing of this situation

We already sent McGowan......Wink

I kid, he is too big to piss off.

The fact is that there have been tests done, PLUS real world examples. So far it seems to be a crap shoot what happens. There is no clear 'best' answer.


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 25, 2011, 7:50 AM
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

My memory was that the testing done by the Golden Nuggets did not have the cutaway handle pulled already at the time of deployment.



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