Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Jump Pilot Training Course

 


grimmie  (D 18890)

Apr 21, 2008, 10:33 AM
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Jump Pilot Training Course Can't Post

It's time to establish a national jump pilot training course. I am never for more FAA involvement in our sport, but enough is enough.
There needs to be an add on rating for fixed wing pilots to fly jumpers.
The course should be intense, cover everything from 182's to Otters and every plane in between.
There is a history to jumpship crashes that is unfortunately being repeated at a very high expense in lives.
It might not prevent further crashes, but it will prevent many I am sure.
This had been discussed before, I think it's time.
Diverdriver, Zing, where do we start?
Just my 2 cents worth after the Perris crash 16 years ago tomorrow, and all of the incidents since.


(This post was edited by grimmie on Apr 21, 2008, 10:34 AM)


jcecil

Apr 21, 2008, 12:46 PM
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Something so broad as to cover all jump planes will not happen. There are many jump pilots who will never fly a turbine, much less a twin-turbine such as an Otter, KA, or Skyvan. Even then, flying a KA with jumpers is very different from something like an Otter, which is far different from flying a 180 or 182.

In my experience, government never gets it right anyway when they try to set rules or standards. USPA if I'm not mistaken already has material on being a jump pilot.


grimmie  (D 18890)

Apr 21, 2008, 1:10 PM
Post #3 of 79 (2726 views)
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If you fly 182's, do that course. If you move up to a Caravan, do that course.


737driver

Apr 21, 2008, 4:56 PM
Post #4 of 79 (2678 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Jump Pilot Training Course [In reply to] Can't Post

These are already available... Flight Safety run them.... for the Caravan and King Air.

However how many drop zones are willing to spend the money... that is where the problem is drop zones not spending money on the aircraft and pilot training


Colson

Apr 21, 2008, 5:20 PM
Post #5 of 79 (2660 views)
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In reply to:
It's time to establish a national jump pilot training course. I am never for more FAA involvement in our sport, but enough is enough.
There needs to be an add on rating for fixed wing pilots to fly jumpers.

No there does not. Do not think that getting the FAA involved with this kind of thing is useful, besides I doubt they would even entertain the idea. If there was a need they would have already done so.

In reply to:
The course should be intense, cover everything from 182's to Otters and every plane in between.

Ok, Ill take the course, but know that I expect to be compensated for it, and I will also consider myself to be worth much more per load/hour then I have been paid previously for jump ops.


737driver

Apr 21, 2008, 5:25 PM
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I'm sure if the FAA had their way they would all but ban sky diving.


Colson

Apr 21, 2008, 5:35 PM
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In reply to:
I'm sure if the FAA had their way they would all but ban sky diving.

Exactly, they would rather just see it all go away.

There is no way they would setup a new certification program for this. There is too much work required, besides whos going to administer the test? It would have to be a DPE, who more then likely has never flown skydivers, and who would also have to have been through the program himself, and have experience, etc.....Not to mention he would charge an examiner fee, then theres the cost of the airplane....whos going to pay that...Not me.


737driver

Apr 21, 2008, 5:42 PM
Post #8 of 79 (2643 views)
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I think they (FAA) would be better of spending their time bringing sky diving under some form of FAR 135 regulation.

This would do far more to increase safety at drop zones... it would also close many... but what is better less drop zones or less incidents


mattaman  (D 20957)

Apr 21, 2008, 9:22 PM
Post #9 of 79 (2585 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Jump Pilot Training Course [In reply to] Can't Post

We have a problem. Some people think little regulation is good. Then they ruin it with stupidity and greed, then the overreaction creates lots of rules. Not addressing this problem is going to create regulation.
Can we solve the problem, yes by thinking the problem can be solved. Start talking about it, asking about pilot competancy, and refusing to jump at shithole dropzones that have clueless jump pilots cause they don't care if you live and they just want you money. Support competant drop zones!
Its your life, and I think there are a few people who have gone down with the ship and might have wanted their life back. Don't make that you!


737driver

Apr 21, 2008, 9:29 PM
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Put it under FAR 135... all the shit drop zones would be gone... the ones with money who can look after their airplanes could then be brought up to standard.

People would have to agree that it is going to cost more.

It needs to be regulated.. what is going on now is nothing short of disgusting.


mark  (D 6108)

Apr 21, 2008, 11:09 PM
Post #11 of 79 (2562 views)
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In reply to:
Put it under FAR 135...

I agree that changing from Part 91 to Part 135 would tighten some maintenance requirements.

Could you expand on how it would require improved pilot skills? Would that come with just upping the qualifications from commercial (in as few as 200 hours or so) to VFR Part 135 (500 hours + commercial + instrument)? Or are there other features of air taxi flying that apply to flying jumpers?

Some smaller operations, for example, the club at the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople (faculty advisor: Professor Peter Schickele), might not have a pilot qualified to serve as a check pilot. Would there need to be special qualifications for an outside check pilot, or would the local FSDO be able to approve a check pilot whose experience was in flying passengers from A to B, but not flying jumpers?

I guess I'm asking how applying every provision of Part 135 would affect a skydiving operation, for better or worse, since I don't think that there is a way that some provisions would apply and others wouldn't.

Mark


737driver

Apr 21, 2008, 11:34 PM
Post #12 of 79 (2555 views)
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Yes Mark....

It would need to be adapted... Like part 91k was created.

I would say it would improve safety in terms of MX

Pilot's required to have greater experience.. Hours, Initial, and recurrent training.

Flight time limitations, a safety and quality assurance program etc etc etc.

Something would need to be established with regard to the training and checking requirements and who could perform that function.

For it to work it would need to become under the remit of check airmen (or similar) as the FSDO is just to busy.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 21, 2008, 11:47 PM
Post #13 of 79 (2551 views)
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I like sentiment your ideas have but fear that it won't make much difference at all. For every regulation created, a loophole will be found or someones signature can be bought. And over regulation will spell the death of the sport as we know it.

The Aircraft we are using in this industry were never designed for the hours and cycles that we used them to.

Cessna never planned for their light GA products to do 10,000 hours, or 30,000 cycles, but that's all some operators think they can afford.

I'd like to believe that if more time and effort is spent by this industry as a whole to educate jumpers of the dangers of improperly maintained and operated aircraft, and the additional dangers of unqualified, or reckless pilots, then those same jumpers will stop doing business with shady operators no matter how attractive the price.

I might be a bit naive.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Apr 22, 2008, 12:18 AM)


737driver

Apr 21, 2008, 11:53 PM
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No your quite right...

I think people need to face facts that prices need to go up and up quite a bit to run a safe DZ.

If i were Cessna or Pratt and Whitney I would not want a DZ flying my aircraft... and putting my good name in the papers for all the wrong reasons.

Those aircraft will fly for a long time... but to keep them flying and ship shape costs money.

Money that needs to be spent on a no object basis...

Or at least to the point where it is just not cost effective and retire the aircraft.

The trouble with a DZ is... the DZO is everything.. and much to involved in the finances.. so coupled to the fact of the lack of oversight.. its easy for them to get into the habit of letting mx slip.

I don't know how or why the FAA have not come in by now with a heavy fist... It does nothing for the image of aviation as a whole having aircraft nose in.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 22, 2008, 12:05 AM
Post #15 of 79 (2546 views)
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I'm pretty sure P&W is publicly running away from association with jump operations as fast as they can. Probably the same way they distance themselves with anyone who operates their products over TBO.

Of course evidence has shown that they build a great product that can be run well over TBO safely, but they won't back you up if you do.

As for Cessna, well all they have to say is "What do you expect with 20 to 30 + year old aircraft?"

If the FAA were to have any measurable effect, It might be in the case of making some sort of Drop Zone Operator's Certificate/Rating.Laugh

At least then operators/owners would have an actionable rating to be violated, and there for would be less likely to push others into taking risks they'd not face themselves.


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 12:08 AM
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That is a very good point.... the drop zone operators certificate...

Really is... I just wonder how you go about pushing the issue to get them to take notice?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 22, 2008, 12:21 AM
Post #17 of 79 (2537 views)
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That is the scary part. If you try to get them (the FAA) to replace just one rivet, they're just as likely build a new airframe around the defective rivet.

Unimpressed


I don't have a good answer, which is why I try to choose where I jump wisely.


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 12:24 AM
Post #18 of 79 (2536 views)
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I think the more realistic thing to happen is that more and more law suits will be filled and successful.

And hopefully the aviation insurance companies will start forcing change... or refuse to insure skydiving aircraft.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 22, 2008, 12:35 AM
Post #19 of 79 (2535 views)
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Re: [737driver] Jump Pilot Training Course [In reply to] Can't Post

[sigh]


Too true.


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 12:37 AM
Post #20 of 79 (2533 views)
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Not really a bad thing... just a round about way of doing things!

It regulates business jets and keeps FSI / CAE Simuflite in business!


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Apr 22, 2008, 1:11 AM
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In reply to:
And hopefully the aviation insurance companies will start forcing change... or refuse to insure skydiving aircraft.

Its already 6k a year to insure a 182 for skydivingCrazy

Thats about 68 full loads just to crack that nut....


deadbug  (D 21098)

Apr 22, 2008, 7:04 AM
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I agree that in some cases that better jump pilot training is needed and I have been in this sport long enough to know that sometimes maint is lacking, but the idea of trying to adapt part 135 or require an additional FAA issued rating to fly jumpers is not the answer. With very few acceptions all US DZs are USPA member DZs. We as a community have found a way to structure a training program for the jumping side of the operation in tandem, AFF, static line, and coach programs, requiring a hierarchy of examiners to issue skydiving ratings. If there is going to be additional requirements to fly jumpers (and there are many good arguments for just that). Why not develop a program within our own community, using the expertise that we already have to structure a program and issue a non FAA issued rating to fly jumpers at USPA affiliate DZs. As far as the maint side of things go, there are already regs in place to address that. If a DZO is willing to brake those regs adding another layer is not going to change anything. Adding a group of people that know very little about day to day jump operations (FAA) and giving them more power to regulate will open a can of worms that is better left shut.

Doug


Colson

Apr 22, 2008, 7:38 AM
Post #23 of 79 (2469 views)
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In reply to:
Pilot's required to have greater experience.. Hours, Initial, and recurrent training.

Like I said, I need more coin to fly if I have to jump through those hoops, Im sure not going to do it for a few bucks a load.


In reply to:
I don't know how or why the FAA have not come in by now with a heavy fist... It does nothing for the image of aviation as a whole having aircraft nose in.

With a statement like that you would assume they crash every other flight. Why? probably because it isnt a big deal to them.

You cant single out jumpships...It also does nothing to the image of aviation to have a cessna driver groundloop a Stearman or a Cub because they had their buddy check them out it an hour. Maybe we should change the tailwheel endorsment to a new type rating because everybody knows tailwheel aircraft are horrible, dangerous, and deadly.

Or what about all the 135/121 guys who even have type ratings and recurrency training who still manage to screw up? I've also seen complete nonsense at 141 ops, somebody whos first lesson was 6 months ago is now teaching people to fly....

For every accident there are obvious FAR violations. There are sufficient rules in place with respect to jump op safety. The accidents happen when people do not respect these rules, therefore adding more rules will just mean more violations at the post crash investigation. If jumpers wouldnt jump at the dumpy DZ's, that might help, but you know thats not going to happen.


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 7:39 AM
Post #24 of 79 (2468 views)
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Your having a laugh?

Aviation in the United States is regulated by the FAA... not the USPA.

We are talking about serious issues with the MX of jump planes.

It is about time the FAA started to prosecute.. and maybe bring about a change for the greater good.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 22, 2008, 7:48 AM
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How about just being more selective of pilots, and firing the horse's asses? I've seem pilots doing unsafe things deliberately, and being fired, then going off elsewhere to kill themselves and someone else in a perfectly good airplane. I don't think it's a maintenance issue; it's an attitude issue.

We need pilots who know to turn around in bad weather, get the nose down if the engine quits, and not run out of speed on jump run. We don't need arrogant pilots who will kill you trying to do you a favor or giving you an extra "thrill". With all that said, I've flown with some great jump pilots, and some that I will not get in a plane with again. Skydivers need to learn what is acceptable in a pilot, and what is not. Parachutist article, perhaps?


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 7:51 AM
Post #26 of 79 (1083 views)
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I agree.

But there is a HUGE MX issue and lack of oversight of skydiving operations....

Fine if you want to keep the actual skydive under the remit of the USPA...

But as for the operation of the aircraft it is high time the FAA started getting touch before anymore innocent lives are lost.


Colson

Apr 22, 2008, 7:53 AM
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In reply to:
How about just being more selective of pilots, and firing the horse's asses? I've seem pilots doing unsafe things deliberately, and being fired, then going off elsewhere to kill themselves and someone else in a perfectly good airplane. I don't think it's a maintenance issue; it's an attitude issue.

We need pilots who know to turn around in bad weather, get the nose down if the engine quits, and not run out of speed on jump run. We don't need arrogant pilots who will kill you trying to do you a favor or giving you an extra "thrill". With all that said, I've flown with some great jump pilots, and some that I will not get in a plane with again. Skydivers need to learn what is acceptable in a pilot, and what is not. Parachutist article, perhaps?


Best choice of words, I very much agree.....But when the plane is sitting and the dzo has customers and only the bonehead is available to fly....guess what happens.


737driver...this isnt all about maintenance issues, and maintenance issues are not confined to DZ's, airlines are some of the worst offenders ever.


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 8:02 AM
Post #28 of 79 (1074 views)
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I beg to differ.

In the last few years I can think of only one crash in America that was the result of MX... The Beech 1900.

The simple fact is jump prices need to at least double for there to be enough money to look after the airplanes and ensure proper pilot training.

To train a turbine jump pilot correctly I would say costs around 12-15k

The only way to really train them is in a simulator.

You just can't replicate the kind of training needed in the airplane.

I would also question at 250 hours if your ready to have people climbing all over the outside of your airplane.

Your very green at that stage... and you have people changing the CG of the aircraft... and effectively extending a huge speed brake on one side of the aircraft.

I would be curious if someone could inform me what steps if any the USPA has taken to address the problem of aircraft accidents in the sport of skydiving.


deadbug  (D 21098)

Apr 22, 2008, 8:02 AM
Post #29 of 79 (1074 views)
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In reply to:
Your having a laugh?

Aviation in the United States is regulated by the FAA... not the USPA.

We are talking about serious issues with the MX of jump planes.

It is about time the FAA started to prosecute.. and maybe bring about a change for the greater good.

I know who it's regulated by as I am a part 121 captain for a major carrier with close to 7000 hours of flight time and multiple type ratings. I also have flown around 1200 in jump operations and did my time in 135 ops too. My point is that there is nothing that says that a program taylored specifically towards jump ops cant be developed by the people that have the experience and expertise ie. jump pilots. There are many areas of aviation that require specialized training specifically to the type of operation outside of the scope of the FAA (AG, banner towing, bush flying). Of course there are regs in place that apply to these operations but most of these industries go above and beyond the requirements in the interest of safety and self preservation. We as a group can do the same without inviting the FAA in to stir the pot. A great example is the entire AFF program. Is there an FAA requirement for jump training in the US? The FAA recognises that the jump community is better suited to train jumpers and has taken a hands off approach. There is no reg that keeps my neighbor from buying a rig and jumping from his friends plane without seeking jump training. With the exception of some very basic regs that regulate all part 91 ops and the basic provisions of part 105 we have been allowed to develop our own training. We can do the same with jump pilot training.

Doug


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 8:08 AM
Post #30 of 79 (1068 views)
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But has the USPA done anything in relation to aircraft accidents in skydiving...

I could well be wrong i just cant think of anything!?


deadbug  (D 21098)

Apr 22, 2008, 8:29 AM
Post #31 of 79 (1061 views)
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In reply to:
But has the USPA done anything in relation to aircraft accidents in skydiving...

I could well be wrong i just cant think of anything!?

Nope,

They do in my opinion however have a very good AFF and tandem program in place. My suggestion is to mirror those programs drawing on our own pool of talent. Designate someone with vast amounts of experience to head up the program, then designate examiners in various regions of the country to take it to the field. Require initial training and at least annual training to maintain your USPA jump pilot card. It has always amazed me that we have such well developed programs in place for the jumping side but no real structure on the flying side. My main point is that we have the ability to handle this ourselves without looking outside to the FAA.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Apr 22, 2008, 8:34 AM
Post #32 of 79 (1058 views)
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In reply to:
I think they (FAA) would be better of spending their time bringing sky diving under some form of FAR 135 regulation.

I'm a DZO, and with one high time 182. When my A&P/IA says "You know, it would be a good idea to..." I say, let's do it. For instance we replaced all pulleys, and control cables last winter. I also comply with my insurance requirements with regard to pilot training.

The very same day that I'm required to comply with Part 135 is the day the shingle comes down. My guess is that only a very small handful of full time "large DZs" would remain. I could charge $50 per slot, and $500 per tandem, and it still wouldn't be a worthwhile venture for me.

Obviously I don't think that forcing skydiving ops to part 135 is the answer. That said, there are way to many aircraft accidents in this industry. I've also said, and will say again here that "I don't expect to die doing what I do, but if I do it'll more than likely be in an airplane crash, not the skydive."

In the end you have to draw a line in the sand. With regard to driving cars, if we reduced the maximum speed limit to 30 mph and forced compliance, the 40,000 + highway deaths each year in this country would all but be eliminated. This is not a compromise we're willing to make to save the lives of 40,000 people each year.

I guess my point is to be careful what you wish for, you just may get it.

Martin


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 9:33 AM
Post #33 of 79 (1035 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Jump Pilot Training Course [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess your one of the good guys out there... It is really nice to hear that attitude from a DZO with regard to MX... Let me buy you a beer.

The problem arises that many DZO's are not thinking like that... thus we need the FAA to do something about it..

Because you hit the nail on the head.. your feel your going to die in the skydive aircraft not the skydive...

That is just an insane situation that we find ourselves in... and something needs to be done about it..

Admitting we have a problem, talking about it and putting ideas forward is a great start.

I would still like someone to tell me what if anything the USPA have done to try and keep aircraft blue side up.


futuredivot  (Student)

Apr 22, 2008, 9:44 AM
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I'm separating the training from the MX sid eof this discusson. What will NEW standards address that complying with EXISTING standards won't? This side of things isn't a DZ only issue. It's GA wide, but by and far, the vast majority of operators do what has to be done (trust me, I'm probably in more recip maint shops than anyone else you'll ever meetCrazy)


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 9:50 AM
Post #35 of 79 (1027 views)
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I think the greatest thing they will bring is oversight.

So that regulations whatever part they are under are enforced and complied to.

Running a skydiving aircraft way beyond TBO is just silly.

It has a hard life, if it is a single engine... chances are your going to find out how far beyond TBO you can go when you apply full power... So your going to be close to the ground... with no motor.

So oversight, and regulations stating compliance with manufacturers recommendations.

Plus minimum standards and a training program requirement for jumpilots.

Of course there would need to be much work in drawing up the exact wording of such legislation.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Apr 22, 2008, 10:43 AM
Post #36 of 79 (1010 views)
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In reply to:
I guess your one of the good guys out there... It is really nice to hear that attitude from a DZO with regard to MX... Let me buy you a beer.

A couple of points I've noticed. One DZO I know of was trying to survive from the revanue generated by his one Cessna Kansas DZ. When he had to choose between maintenance and eating, he chose food. He also crashed that airplane http://www.ntsb.gov/...0316X00591&key=1. I have a day job, the DZ does have to support itself, but not me and my family.

On the topic of TBO, what's the difference in a Texas Skyways carbureted 520 with a 2500 hour TBO, and an equally well built O-470 with a 1500 hour TBO, obviously other than the number on the paperwork? My 0-470 has 2300 hours on it right now, strong compressions, reasonable oil use, etc. That said, even if it's still "healthy" at the end of this season it'll be replaced. Maybe a bit off topic, but by your definition I may not be one of "the good guys" since I've chosen not to replace a healthy engine simply because the paper that came with it says 1,500 as opposed to 2,500.

On the topic of pilot training, I agree that the practice of having a "veteran skydiver pilot" ride for a couple of trips, and calling them "trained" is not sufficient.

Martin


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 10:55 AM
Post #37 of 79 (1006 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Jump Pilot Training Course [In reply to] Can't Post

The trouble is... discretion is all well and good.

The problem is in skydiving it has been abused.

Because discretion is allowed to be used with regard to TBO in 91 operations... that translates to some DZO's as don't bother doing it save money (Which is a false economy)


Colson

Apr 22, 2008, 11:38 AM
Post #38 of 79 (988 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Jump Pilot Training Course [In reply to] Can't Post

The purpose of the overhaul isnt to get a new engine, it is for an inspection. After overhaul much of your engine may be the old parts provided they meet the tolerances in the overhaul manual, which will not be "new" tolerances, therefore the engine is not/cannot be zero timed at an "overhaul". Aside from the opportunity to inspect, there are other things that can be done like cleaning sludge, new rings, plain bearings, cylinders are sent out, etc.

That being said the overhaul period is in place to inspect the engine, and running over the TBO can be more complicated then just having good compressions, oil PSI, oil analysis, etc. I am not 100% against running over TBO, but is is hard to define how much over TBO is ok, and what exactly to look for to determine when it should no longer be operated.

The best thing a new engine owner can do is put themselves on a saving plan, meaning for each hour of engine operation X amount of $$ is put aside for the upcoming TBO. Many dont like this idea, but it can work well.


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Apr 22, 2008, 12:02 PM
Post #39 of 79 (975 views)
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My turn.

Wow quite the discussion of jump plane ops. Reminds me of some posts I made on rec.skydiving back in 1998. Ten years ago. Since then, the number of jump plane accidents have gone up and then dropped back down. The only educational website for jump plane ops I know of is mine http://www.diverdriver.com. USPA always backs away from anything relating to training of pilots and oversight of aircraft maintenance.

What I thought would be a good idea would be an expansion of FAR Part 105. In there we could develop a training sylabus or PTS for a jump pilot. Each type of jump plane C-182/C-206/KA-90/DHC-6 etc would have a seperate sign off. How that sign off would happen would need to be developed. Would there be DEs or would it be like towing gliders? The person with a commercial license and a signoff can do the training. It recognizes the uniqueness of the activity yet does not overly complicate things driving businesses out of business needlessly.

Each DZ should have a yearly inspection or two from the FSDO. This is a commercial operation and there should be oversight. Checks and balance. Right now we do not have balance.

We should make sure our pilots have covered a minimum of subjects and training to flying jumpers. We can not hope that our pilots just pick up on the right conversations before something bad happens. We need to know they know what can happen before it happens. That is why I list all the jump plane accidents I can find. We need to learn from the past as we repeat the same accidents over and over.

Please, use my website to help train your pilots. Use it as a loose framework and tailor it to your operation. There is no reason for any jump pilot to say they didn't get much help as the DZO was not a pilot.


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 22, 2008, 1:51 PM
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In reply to:
I think they (FAA) would be better of spending their time bringing sky diving under some form of FAR 135 regulation.

This would do far more to increase safety at drop zones... it would also close many... but what is better less drop zones or less incidents

Well you could do away with ALL incidents if you did away with all dropzones. It sounds like that's something you would endorse.

Blues,
Dave


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 2:38 PM
Post #41 of 79 (922 views)
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Do you advocate some drop zones continuing their operations in the current unregulated fashion?


MakeItHappen

Apr 22, 2008, 4:35 PM
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In reply to:
But has the USPA done anything in relation to aircraft accidents in skydiving...

I could well be wrong i just cant think of anything!?

This was probably the 'closest' thing you'll find in that area.

USPA added questions about seatbelts to all exams, added seatbelt requirements directly to the BSRs.

No one (NTSB, FAA or USPA) did anything about the improper MX, no/low experience or training of jump pilots, improper W&B, aft cg. AC fueling ops (except for the PIA hot-refueling SOP) etc.

BTW, today is the anniversary of the Perris crash.

.


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 4:47 PM
Post #43 of 79 (898 views)
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The FAA do have allot of regulations..

Lot's of what skydiving centers do is actually illegal... we just need for the FAA to start enforcing things more vigorously.

Classic example is taking the jump aircraft and jumpers to an event....


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 22, 2008, 5:32 PM
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In reply to:
Do you advocate some drop zones continuing their operations in the current unregulated fashion?

I haven't gotten the impression they are unregulated. Rather, I've gotten the impression that *some* operate outside of the regulations. I advocate people deciding whether they want to support such dropzones...if they're unsafe and all the instructors leave as a result, the dropzone will shut down.

Blues,
Dave


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 5:34 PM
Post #45 of 79 (883 views)
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They should be brought to account and those responsible for violations of the FAR's should be prosecuted under existing legislation.


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 22, 2008, 5:36 PM
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In reply to:
The FAA do have allot of regulations..

Lot's of what skydiving centers do is actually illegal... we just need for the FAA to start enforcing things more vigorously.

Classic example is taking the jump aircraft and jumpers to an event....

So jumpers flying in a jump plane is fine, and a jump plane ferrying to an event is fine, but by god, if those two things happen simultaneously, death and destruction are guaran-fucking-teed. Please explain how a normal cross country is made dramatically riskier when carrying jumpers. Let me guess, you'd prefer the jumpers be paying passengers in your 737. Pardon me if I'm not already reaching for my wallet.

Blues,
Dave


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 22, 2008, 5:37 PM
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In reply to:
They should be brought to account and those responsible for violations of the FAR's should be prosecuted under existing legislation.

Agreed.

Blues,
Dave


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 5:45 PM
Post #48 of 79 (874 views)
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because for a start there would be seats, a restraint system...

(On turbine aircraft their would be EGPWS, TCAS), Weather Radar, Operational Control, Training & Qualification of the crew, Certification, Flight Dispatchers, route & performance analysis, flight time and duty limitations, Minimum Equipment list + dispatch deviation procedures Air Carrier Certificate, POI's, FAA Surveillance.


And last but not least it would be ILLEGAL for a skydiving aircraft to do it unless it met the above

It is wrong to put the fair paying public in an unregulated, unauthorized and illegal form of transport.... Think of the C208 crash in WA


Colson

Apr 22, 2008, 5:56 PM
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In reply to:
They should be brought to account and those responsible for violations of the FAR's should be prosecuted under existing legislation.

I like that wording.


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 6:01 PM
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I guess all I wanted to achieved in the main from FAR 135 is having the FAA down at the DZ more often... and forcing a working relationship between the two.


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 22, 2008, 6:14 PM
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In reply to:
Think of the C208 crash in WA

I had friends in three different crashes in the last year, two fatal to all aboard, including that one (and I had been asked to be on that flight several times). I've also ridden ferry planes to and from Boise, quite possibly in that exact plane. You are free to disagree with me, but don't think for a second that my opinion formed in a vacuum devoid of personal loss in such aircraft.

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on Apr 22, 2008, 6:15 PM)


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 6:16 PM
Post #52 of 79 (1575 views)
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Well.....

If the regulations had of been followed and the DZ was not doing something ILLEGAL then the loss of life would be at MOST 1.


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 22, 2008, 6:22 PM
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Almost every skydiving fatality, aircraft related or not, could be prevented by the deceased having not gotten on the plane. Who are you to decide what risks other people should expose themselves to?

Blues,
Dave


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 6:24 PM
Post #54 of 79 (1568 views)
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Dave your views are not compatible with the NAS.

Lets not forget that these aircraft fly over peoples houses and operate in the NAS.

Who are you to say that a substandard aircraft can fly over property endangering life.


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 22, 2008, 7:33 PM
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In reply to:
Dave your views are not compatible with the NAS.

Are we getting at the heart of the matter here? Because all I've expressed is the view of someone who wishes to continue skydiving, and you think that is not compatible with the NAS?

In reply to:
Who are you to say that a substandard aircraft can fly over property endangering life.

I have said no such thing. I think skydiving AC should meet the current standards. You think the standards should be increased to an unsustainable level.

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on Apr 22, 2008, 7:33 PM)


futuredivot  (Student)

Apr 22, 2008, 7:46 PM
Post #56 of 79 (1555 views)
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OK, let me preface by saying I am NOT a pilot. On the other hand, I've probably spent as many hours asleep in left seat of single engine recips as a bunch of CFI's I know have total time. I feel qualified to judge pilots and I'd rather trust my safety to nearly any jump plane pilot that I've flown with as opposed to a lot of the DCA/Flight Safety/etc grads that I've met that can't take a 172 from Sanford to Ocala without filing or at least flight following. At least on a ferry trip-I do think some situational specific training is warrented to skydiving operations but that can be addressed without additional expensive hard to maintain regulations. And definitely without sim time.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 22, 2008, 8:17 PM
Post #57 of 79 (1550 views)
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In reply to:
Do you advocate some drop zones continuing their operations in the current unregulated fashion?
Are FAR Part 91 and Part 105 suddenly devoid or all regualtions?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 22, 2008, 8:28 PM
Post #58 of 79 (1546 views)
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In reply to:
(On turbine aircraft their would be EGPWS, TCAS), Weather Radar, Operational Control, Training & Qualification of the crew, Certification, Flight Dispatchers, route & performance analysis, flight time and duty limitations, Minimum Equipment list + dispatch deviation procedures Air Carrier Certificate, POI's, FAA Surveillance.
Do you really need WX radar, EGWPS and deviation procedures for 20 minute VFR fliights? What "FAA surveillance" do you want? What's "operational control"? What do you need a dispatcher for? Can't the amnifest desk do the job?

In reply to:

It is wrong to put the fair paying public in an unregulated, unauthorized and illegal form of transport.... Think of the C208 crash in WA
Well, bub, the C208 crash in Washington wasn't a DZ flying it. The DZ rented the plane to a group of jumpers and a pilot for the trip, a part 91 operation. He was IFR rated, the plane was IFR equipped. Tell me why they didn't get a wx briefing or file a flight plan, IFR or VFR. It's pilots' attitudes that kill, not the FAR part they are flying under.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 22, 2008, 8:33 PM
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In reply to:
Dave your views are not compatible with the NAS.
NAS does fine, whether the jump planes crash or not. It's hub and spoke scheduling that's screwing up the NAS.

I'm quite happy with the pilots that fly me under Part 91. I don't need to spend twice as much to feel no safer.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 22, 2008, 8:36 PM
Post #60 of 79 (1538 views)
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>Lets not forget that these aircraft fly over peoples houses and operate in the NAS.

Generally, the FAA doesn't care if we kill ourselves - and I can see the logic in that. They care very much if we kill people who didn't sign up for the risks of skydiving. The lack of FAA regulation so far is due to the fact that we're pretty good at avoiding deaths to people other than skydivers.

That's not to say that we're doing a great job, of course; we have a ways to go. But the "all the people who live near drop zones are at risk of being killed by falling aluminum!" doesn't really fly (no pun intended.)


(This post was edited by billvon on Apr 22, 2008, 8:40 PM)


737driver

Apr 22, 2008, 8:37 PM
Post #61 of 79 (1535 views)
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Well, bub, the C208 crash in Washington wasn't a DZ flying it. The DZ rented the plane to a group of jumpers and a pilot for the trip, a part 91 operation. He was IFR rated, the plane was IFR equipped. Tell me why they didn't get a wx briefing or file a flight plan, IFR or VFR. It's pilots' attitudes that kill, not the FAR part they are flying under.

The FAA say other wise, they say it was illegal


grimmie  (D 18890)

Apr 22, 2008, 10:11 PM
Post #62 of 79 (1521 views)
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Our sport has a wealth of knowledge not being utilized. We have jump pilots out there, current and retired, that have a tremendous amount of experience. We have DZO's that have operated aircraft successfully for many years.
If you want to tow a banner, land on floats, etc. there is specialized training available.
My original post was to make people here think about ways to train our jump pilots in a common manner.
Maybe a large DZ (with access to a 182 and up) should start a training center. Gather some of the most experienced jump pilots, and new pilots that have just started flying jumpers, and come up with a sylabus.
Flying jumpers is way more than not crashing, as we all know. I have recently been with new pilots that couldn't even use a GPS to get us out over the DZ.
A helmet, AAD and 2 new canopies aren't doing us any good if we stall on jump run, crash on take off etc. IMHO we neglect training the most important person on the jump, the pilot.
Now on to the good. There are some amazingly talented jump pilots out there. Many have flown you and I on formation loads, daily jumps and demos. They are spread all across the world.
My original point is, it's time to put our thick headed skydiver brains to work and come up with some ideas to make it safer for all of us, including the first time jumpers with no clue how it all works.
Blue Skies!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 22, 2008, 10:59 PM
Post #63 of 79 (1512 views)
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In reply to:
The FAA say other wise, they say it was illegal
Do you have a link to that statement. I'm curious to read about it.

As to my other question, do you really think we need all the resources an airline has to fly jumpers safely to 13K? Seriously? TCAS would be nice, but EGPWS?


737driver

Apr 23, 2008, 8:53 AM
Post #64 of 79 (1470 views)
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That was in response to another poster saying why is it wrong for jump aircraft to ferry jumpers across the country.

EGPWS could of easily save the 208 over WA


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 23, 2008, 9:34 AM
Post #65 of 79 (1457 views)
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In reply to:
That was in response to another poster saying why is it wrong for jump aircraft to ferry jumpers across the country.

You still didn't answer the question. *You* say that the FAA says it was illegal, but you haven't provided a reference supporting that statement.

Blues,
Dave


scdrnr  (D License)

Apr 23, 2008, 11:22 AM
Post #66 of 79 (1425 views)
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The problem may not be lack of jump pilot training but a systemic problem in pilot training in general. A commercial pilot ticket should mean that a pilot is very competent at stall recovery from a variety of attitudes, configurations, at the full range of the weight and balance envelope. But many flight schools, especially the "Airline Academy" types only train their pilots to recover from the first sign of a stall, usually the horn, and they've never had more than two people and a couple of flight bags in the plane. And then they pass the in house checkride and go off into the world unprepared for anything other than riding around with a babysitter, making radio calls and working the gear lever.

Yup, there are a whole lot of pilots out there who have been trained by instructors whose only spin training consisted of a couple of recoveries from a 1 turn spin in a 172, who've never flown in a cloud, planned a flight longer than half their fuel endurance, operated at gross weight, etc, etc......

If the airlines have their way with user-fees and all that BS its only going to get worse. Imagine the situation when the only flight training available is airline style ab-initio programs whose curriculums are designed for lowest cost, lowest risk.

My two cents - avoid pilots who wore epaulets during their training.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 23, 2008, 12:29 PM
Post #67 of 79 (1401 views)
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In reply to:

EGPWS could of easily save the 208 over WA
No, you're wrong.It would not have. EGPWS prevents controlled flight into terrain, CFIT. It doesn't recover aircraft from uncontrolled flight. Better judgment on the pilot's part would have saved those people. It was an avoidable situation. Unsure


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 25, 2008, 8:14 PM
Post #68 of 79 (1330 views)
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Good point Jan!

The next anniversary is Labor Day, when a Beech 18 crashed in Hinkley, Illinois.
Our challenge is to allow zero jump plane crashes between now and Labour Day.

The process started with Diver Driver's website.

The second step requires DZOs to hire compentent, cautious pilots. Numbers of hours are less important than attitude.

The third step occurrs during annual Safety Day. Skydivers should be reminded of competent pilots treat their airplanes: walk-arounds EVERY morning, dipping fuel tanks when in doubt, not "pushing" weather limits, etc.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 28, 2008, 8:25 AM
Post #69 of 79 (1271 views)
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The Australian Parachute Federation published a manual for jump pilots.
The British Parachute Association published a manual for jump pilots.
The Canadian Sports Parachuting Association published a manual for jump pilots.


shaark  (D License)

May 4, 2008, 9:28 AM
Post #70 of 79 (1211 views)
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I read the forums but seldom post as I feel frustrated by the poor understanding shown by most contributors. A "reply" would often need an essay to try and clarify/agree on basic (and not so basic) facts. And then so often individuals have their own agenda which may not allow valid, practical resolutions/solutions.
This topic is a very important one, and thankfully most of the bulls**t is missing.
Just on one element --- pilot quality. When a wannabe jump pilot arrives I expect that they can basically fly. They have a few hundred hours and a commercial, right? Trained by FAA qualified instructors and passed by FAA examiners. All the requirements met, all the i's dotted and the t's crossed. Regulations have been followed and the bureaucrats are happy.
In my real world I politely allow way more than half these aircraft drivers to try somewhere else. Generally: they have a vague understanding of aerodynamics, so I am concerned about their ability to remain in control of an aircraft, especially if shit happens, and especially in that they can be the cause of shit happening; almost no understanding of engines, so I cringe at the financial risk, and most especially the safety risk; and, skipping lots of other things, their attitudes, probably the most critical area. So many are bulletproof. Nothing bad can ever happen, so who needs to be aware, who needs to operate in a manner that minimizes risk? And those pretty terms such as situational awareness, resource management, decision making --- well, they are pretty terms, but to so many that is all they are, something in a book.
And so many know just about all there is to know about flying light aircraft, and not in a superior way, just that they have a commercial, and they have been trained. They do not know how much they do not know, and they really don't feel this in their gut.
I do.
So, while it might be possible to change their mindsets, I don't have the time. Happily there are enough others. They want to fly. They want to learn. They want to improve, to study, to practice, to ask, to listen, to THINK, to challenge themselves.
As an industry, how can we produce better pilots? At least start with pilots who have open, questioning minds.
More regulation? Well, the FAA is already doing a great job in supplying me with pilots I cannot in good conscience use.
'Nuff for now.


itllclear  (D 6366)

May 6, 2008, 5:51 PM
Post #71 of 79 (1156 views)
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In reply to:
the FAA is already doing a great job in supplying me with pilots I cannot in good conscience use.

As a CFI I get to do a number of aircraft check outs and flight reviews.

As far as I am concerned, all the licensing process does is weed out some of the incompetents.

Hope that makes you more comfortable next time you get into an airplane.

BSBD

harry


shaark  (D License)

May 6, 2008, 7:38 PM
Post #72 of 79 (1140 views)
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Itllclear,
I'm usually pretty comfortable in aircraft, though a fresh jump pilot can sometimes be interesting. After they are through a basic check-out and are flying loads, stuff not critical to safety on any particular flight means bite your tongue and wait to de-brief on the ground. I can get antsy, mostly trying to get into their heads, trying to figure them out, judging if they trying to learn and improve, and judging if they will handle situations if and when they occur.
Got to give them some room to be responsible.
When I'm flying myself, sure, I'm comfortable, but I also fly scared. (Not really the right word, but close. Healthy respect, yes, but that is probably not strong enough.) I put a lot of effort into covering my ass, with regard to as many negative scenarios as I can imagine for any particular flight. I like to be prepared. Minor example: I dislike anr headsets. I much prefer hearing my engine.
By the way, I love flying.
I've had my share of shit over the years. Couple of control issues --- ass pucker time. One engine failure. No sweat, 7,000' near the airport. 1,000hrs on the engine, internal failure --- lifter housing cracked off.
Electrical short --- smell of burnt wiring, real ass pucker time.
One crash, not skydiving related. Aircraft was demolished. Really, really demolished. Ended inverted in a gully with the cockpit crushed. I was the right seat, the owner/operator/week-end warrior was in the left. He tried his best to kill us, I managed a little corrective input, but still very fortunate to survive. Hell of a ride, though. I'd definitely go again if I had a survival guarantee.
It's been fun, and I still have a lot of flying to do.

Blue Skies


itllclear  (D 6366)

Jun 7, 2008, 8:15 PM
Post #73 of 79 (1046 views)
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In reply to:
a fresh jump pilot can sometimes be interesting

I just got a call from a recently certificated commercial pilot who knew me from a ground school course I taught at the local community college.

He answered an ad for a jump pilot and was leaving in a couple of days to start. He wanted to know someplace local where he could get a "high performance" endorsement.

So we're going to see a newly minted commercial pilot, with under 300 hrs., and a fresh high performance rating flying the 182 or 206 at someone's drop zone.

The best I could do was direct him to Diverdriver's website to get general info about flying jumpers. I also suggested he insist on practicing stalls and take offs and landings at gross weight and the aft c.g. often found in loaded jump planes. I suggested sand bags rather than people for the practice.

Finally, I pulled up NTSB reports of skydiver 182 & 206 crashes for the last few years and forwarded them to him.

With the info available to him, if he practices the gross weight maneuvers, even with his limited experience he'll probably be relatively safe.

I'm glad he called me so he could get some "mental prep" before starting.

BSBD

Harry


Beerlight

Jun 8, 2008, 12:30 PM
Post #74 of 79 (1010 views)
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In reply to:
So we're going to see a newly minted commercial pilot, with under 300 hrs., and a fresh high performance rating flying the 182 or 206 at someone's drop zone.



edit to delete and add: Re-reading my own post sometimes makes me wonder why I post at all!Blush Nice job on you helping out that new guy. Wish someone would've helped me out when I started hauling meat.......


(This post was edited by Beerlight on Jun 8, 2008, 5:34 PM)


JohnDeere  (D License)

Jun 8, 2008, 3:59 PM
Post #75 of 79 (993 views)
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That was very cool of you to give back to the sport that way. I wish DZO's would do things like that to prepair new pilots.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jun 8, 2008, 4:52 PM
Post #76 of 79 (559 views)
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In reply to:
I wish DZO's would do things like that to prepair new pilots.

Many DZ's do. As at your local DZ and see what they require for currency and training.

Sparky


JohnDeere  (D License)

Jun 8, 2008, 6:00 PM
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my DZ actually hires very experienced pilots. I was speaking generally about dz's that i hear about getting the newest/cheapest pilots they can find.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 9, 2008, 8:15 AM
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I was speaking generally about dz's that i hear about getting the newest/cheapest pilots they can find.
....................................................................

Cheap skates get what they pay for!


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Jun 9, 2008, 8:47 AM
Post #79 of 79 (523 views)
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In reply to:
my DZ actually hires very experienced pilots. I was speaking generally about dz's that i hear about getting the newest/cheapest pilots they can find.

I saw an interesting comment from Mike Mullins regarding the availability of jump pilots. In a drop zone owners forum, someone was lamenting the lack of pilots to fly his turbine aircraft, dont remember the type. Mike responded There is no shortage of pilots, just a shortage of pay.

That pretty much sums it up.

Also on the topic of pilots and pay, I had a 200 Jump Wonder skydiver mention to me that she thought I should pay my pilots more. I told her Ill pay them $25 a load if thats what everyone thinks should happen. It will drive the cost of your slots up by $4. To which she responded Why do I always gota pay? End of conversation.

Its amazing how stupid some people can be regardless of education! Seems that many get the common sense educated out of them. Or as Jerry Clower would have said Youre obviously educated beyond your intelligence.

Martin



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