Forums: Skydiving: Instructors:
AFFI/Coach Differences?

 

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labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 6:31 PM
Post #26 of 45 (1117 views)
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Re: [djmarvin] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I am not attacking USPA or claiming any conspiracy as you may have inferred. I just believe it would create a clearer line for all parties involved in any rating course. For what it is worth I am a CD for both tandem and coach as well as a designated evaluator for aff. I have worked in numerous courses and have seen this line become unclear to candidates. I have seen the same candidates receive clear instructions from the CD and/or evaluators, but with all the information given in any rating course it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that someone forgets something. Wouldn't it be nice to know what you are expected to accomplish prior to showing up to any course.

Sorry, I didn't mean to lump everyone together in the "conspiracy" idea. What you say makes a lot of sense.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 6:34 PM
Post #27 of 45 (1113 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I checked the link provided and couldn't find the information you describe.

Here's the post that provided the link:

Quote:
It isn't in the SIM. Look in the USPA Instructional Rating Manual (IRM). An abridged version of the IRM, "Essentials", is available for free here:

http://www.uspa.org/...008IRMEssentials.pdf

Best I can tell, the complete IRM is only available on paper for a fee.

Note that the link is clearly identified as an incomplete, abridged version of the IRM.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 6:37 PM
Post #28 of 45 (1111 views)
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Re: [NickDG] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

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The way it should work is if you want to be an Instructor, you have to get passed me, or in terms of Instructors who post here, I'll include Tom Buchanan. And if we are really really really backed up, Bill Von. But then there would be an asterisk after your name in the Instructor list.

And if they sue me then they can have my paid off trailer in the Perris Ghetto . . .

You post some of the best, most insightful stuff that appears on this site. This post sounds like a drunken rant. What's up?


loumeinhart  (D 30065)

Apr 10, 2008, 6:38 PM
Post #29 of 45 (1111 views)
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Re: [NickDG] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Instructor, you have to get passed me, or in terms of Instructors who post here, I'll include Tom Buchanan. And if we are really really really backed up, Bill Von

So what to do if someone 25 years from now 500 miles away decides they want to become an instructor and you're not around, what should they do?


NickDG  (D 8904)

Apr 10, 2008, 7:26 PM
Post #30 of 45 (1095 views)
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Re: [loumeinhart] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Buy an airplane ticket and come to me?

It's what we ask of our unknowing students.

What I'm saying is we need to centralize student training so we can spot problems and trends. The way it is now we've thrown that possibility out the window.

And no, I haven't had a drink today, yet . . .

NickD Smile


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 10, 2008, 7:37 PM
Post #31 of 45 (1091 views)
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Re: [labrys] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

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Note that the link is clearly identified as an incomplete, abridged version of the IRM.

Ya, I noticed that. I guess nevermind. I figured an AFFI/Coach could answer the question fairly easily. I think I underestimated my question.

Derek


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 8:00 PM
Post #32 of 45 (1087 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

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Ya, I noticed that. I guess nevermind. I figured an AFFI/Coach could answer the question fairly easily. I think I underestimated my question.

I've wondered more than once if the questions you've asked were intended to help someone like me who's just beginning to teach consider some new approach or idea. If that's what's happening I really am missing it. That's a frustrating thought.

The basics about the differences that have been stated so far and / or appear to be documented so far are:

A coach can teach non method specific material to a student in the first jump course. An AFFI can teach AFF specific material.

A coach is not required to try to make an unstable student more stable. An AFFI is.

A coach is not required to try to deploy a student. An AFFI is.

A coach is not permitted to sign off license requirements on a students proficiency card, an AFFI is.


pilotdave  (D License)

Apr 10, 2008, 8:41 PM
Post #33 of 45 (1073 views)
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Re: [NickDG] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

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It's why the BSR's are only suggestions.

Since when?

The idea that the R stands for Recommendation seems to be a common myth. It's Requirement, and has been for a long time.

Dave


NickDG  (D 8904)

Apr 10, 2008, 8:55 PM
Post #34 of 45 (1069 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Part 105 of the FARs are the only requirements. Nobody ever went to jail, or paid a fine for busting a BSR as they aren't laws . . .

And if the USPA was capable of making laws, God help us . . .

NickD Smile


pilotdave  (D License)

Apr 11, 2008, 5:41 AM
Post #35 of 45 (1053 views)
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Re: [NickDG] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

So USPA is bad because they didn't get the BSRs made into FARs? And USPA making laws would be bad? You're contradicting yourself. What point are you trying to make?

Dave


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 11, 2008, 8:49 AM
Post #36 of 45 (1023 views)
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Re: [NickDG] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Part 105 of the FARs are the only requirements. Nobody ever went to jail, or paid a fine for busting a BSR as they aren't laws . . .

And if the USPA was capable of making laws, God help us . . .

NickD Smile

Have you jumped in Nevada in the last decade?

Blues,
Dave


NickDG  (D 8904)

Apr 16, 2008, 1:48 PM
Post #37 of 45 (917 views)
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Re: [livendive] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

>>Have you jumped in Nevada in the last decade?<<

Only from a tower . . . Wink

All I'm saying is student training is very fluid. And instead of USPA telling us what to do, we should be telling them . . .

NickD Smile


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Apr 20, 2008, 12:24 PM
Post #38 of 45 (850 views)
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Re: [NickDG] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And in a really perfect world Coach would be the highest rating of all and these folks would be our most experienced AFF Instructors

An interesting opinion, and one that I haven't seen often. I actually agree with you, sort of... it seems odd that we have people with 150 jumps who are "coaching" students on basic RW skills that they very often have not mastered themselves, and are in no way prepared to effectively teach. I have limited coach/AFF experience, but I personally found the coach dives to be more of a challenge on average because you're trying to impart skills more advanced then "don't die".

Problem is, coach jump rates suck. Why would a super-experienced AFF jumpmaster coach for $10 when he can do AFF for $40. You could up the fees, but then you're asking brand new skydivers to shell out even more cash, when they're already stretched pretty thin.

I think the post-AFF coach progression should never be mandatory. Too few DZ's really have enough qualified staff to make it worth the student's money. They can learn just as much from friendly jumpers around the DZ for less money.


repcool  (D 30916)

Apr 20, 2008, 3:51 PM
Post #39 of 45 (840 views)
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Re: [UDSkyJunkie] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if one of the reasons you can coach with only 100 jumps is because you are still close enough to the status of the beginner that it acts as an advantage of sorts?

I don't even know if I agree with myself but I do dwell on it sometimes. Would I feel guilty being a coach because I am still new myself? Or would I use the coaching as an opportunity to develop. Coaching to me is like any form of education, it benefits both parties. Maybe I would just feel guilty charging....
Unsure


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Apr 20, 2008, 4:50 PM
Post #40 of 45 (833 views)
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Re: [repcool] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wonder if one of the reasons you can coach with only 100 jumps is because you are still close enough to the status of the beginner that it acts as an advantage of sorts?

I don't even know if I agree with myself but I do dwell on it sometimes. Would I feel guilty being a coach because I am still new myself? Or would I use the coaching as an opportunity to develop. Coaching to me is like any form of education, it benefits both parties. Maybe I would just feel guilty charging....

I do not think still being close to student status is an advantage... a good instructor can put himself in the mindset of the student.

However, I DO know you can develop yourself tremendously by taking the coach course and doing some coaching. For most of my skydiving career I've been the least experienced on the dive and always learning. Then in 2007 I changed dropzones, no longer had a team, and found myself frequently the most experienced and the organizer. on top of that I got my coach and AFF ratings. I learned more that season than any other, even though my flying skills actually took a step backward due to rarely being challenged after 2 years of serious 4-way.

Now I'm at a big-time DZ (eloy) and I'm back to being the less experienced jumper on many, many dives. But, I have greater perspective and more appreciation for those who are willing to help me continue to improve.

My opinion, if you're willing to get the coach rating and not charge, do it... you'll learn a ton and your students will benefit as much or more than from most who do charge. If you want to charge, I think you should wait until you really believe your skills and knowledge are worth the student's money. for a few talented individuals, that may be as early as a few hundred jumps but for most I think it's more. I personally still barely feel adequate... teaching AFF is easier because the skills are SO basic and the mistakes are usually easier to observe and explain. teaching 4-10 way RW is easier because you're teaching people who to think, what to look for, how to approach, the process... teaching the middle, what coaches do... that's HARD.


riddler  (D 10234)

Apr 20, 2008, 11:06 PM
Post #41 of 45 (808 views)
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Re: [UDSkyJunkie] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
it seems odd that we have people with 150 jumps who are "coaching" students on basic RW skills that they very often have not mastered themselves, and are in no way prepared to effectively teach.

I don't think you need to be a master of any particular skill to teach someone that is new at it. The learning curve in the first 100 jumps is tremendous - someone with 100 jumps can impart a lot of wisdom to someone with 10.

The problem with the coach rating isn't the coaches - it's the "I'm more of a skygod than you are" skygods. Sure, we all see coaches that have a lot less experience than us, and they probably don't teach the same way we do. But they've taken the coach course, they've proved they have the USPA skills required to coach, so let them do their job. We might even learn something from them if we pay enough attention.

But I don't think this thread is about the Coach rating as much as it is about the AFFI rating, so I'll stop there.


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Apr 20, 2008, 11:24 PM
Post #42 of 45 (801 views)
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Re: [riddler] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problem with the coach rating isn't the coaches - it's the "I'm more of a skygod than you are" skygods.

There is some truth there... though that's the case with more than just the coach rating. I have seen similar behavior among the more experienced members of coaching, AFF, tandem, 4-way, freefly, and other disciplines toward the lesser experienced teachers.

In reply to:
someone with 100 jumps can impart a lot of wisdom to someone with 10.

They can indeed. I just don't think it's worth a slot plus a fee. When I had 100 jumps, I did not have the knowledge or skill to be worth that much to someone with 10 jumps. I don't feel I would have provided that value until I was in the ballpark of 500. your mileage may vary.


riddler  (D 10234)

Apr 20, 2008, 11:50 PM
Post #43 of 45 (799 views)
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Re: [UDSkyJunkie] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I just don't think it's worth a slot plus a fee.

Depends on who you are. Freefly coaching from Greg Gasson is worth slot+more than another slot. Canopy coaching from Brian Germaine, same thing.

But for the most part, I agree with you. My coaches never asked me for extra, although I frequently paid them. I myself never asked for anything for coaching, and many times paid for my own jump. To me, coaching is more about giving knowledge that I learned the hard way, and I couldn't ever see a reason to charge for that. But it's a difficult decision, because there are coaches out there that do need the money - do you take away from them by not charging your students?

Maybe someday, I'll have 10,000 jumps (although not at my current rate Angelic), and maybe by then, my time will be worth slot+.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 22, 2008, 3:57 AM
Post #44 of 45 (737 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why don't you just take control of your own learning and simply buy the IRM, RTFM, THEN ask any questions that it doesn't answer for you?

I don't get it. Are you one of those who expect everyone else to do the research and spoon feed you? How are you gonna tell which spoon is clean and which isn't?

According to your profile, you have some experience. Why does it not include RTFM?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 22, 2008, 4:00 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 23, 2008, 12:44 AM
Post #45 of 45 (686 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

I jumped the gun and spoke before I had all the facts. Please disregard my post above...it's too late to delete it. I publicly apologize to hookandswoop for my knee-jerk reaction.

You guys think about it...there's much more to it than simply the authority to fly with the students.


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